Gemmed Temples Idea

[LauraMars]

My point is that there's an enormous grey area full of rich roleplay opportunities to be had, instead of defaulting directly to "hate".

I know I just wanted to make a star wars joke D-:

I don't like black and white rp either, that's boring.

[Lizzie]

My point is that there's an enormous grey area full of rich roleplay opportunities to be had, instead of defaulting directly to "hate".

Allanak's gemmed are subhuman and shunned, but this isn't Tuluk. They aren't kill on sight, they are tolerated - grudgingly, suspiciously, perhaps unwillingly - but tolerated all the same.

My problem is that people seem to flip beteween two binary states of roleplay - open acceptance or overt hatred - rather than exploring all the areas in between.

50 shades of this. And I'll go the step to the middle from the other side of the spectrum too: players of gemmed shouldn't feel obligated (or even necessarily want) to play characters who want to fit in, or who want to be completely isolated. There are 50 shades of variety in there as well. A gemmed could want to earn JUST enough respect that they're not constantly picked on without someone saying "hm - you know Amos, Talia here is probably not the gemmer you want to piss off. Try Amos instead, he's the one who gave Malik the crotchrot last Nekrete by just talking about his nads in public."

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That's a pretty good point, D.

[Eyeball]

Why not give them an actual crotchrot spell that can be transmitted by touch for a while after being cast or something then.

[nauta]

I agree something could and should be done to make Gemmed play more fun, but the game was built with so many IC barriers to that it's a daunting problem to fix.  I've played a lot of long lived Gemmed, and essentially my diagnosis of the problem is that the #1 issue with the role is a lack of IC leadership.  And I don't mean leadership in the Templar or Noble sense, I mean ground level "Sergeant" style leadership.  When that kind of leadership was available, played a Gemmed was a lot of fun, and even kept things closer to the documented setting in my opinion to prevent things from veering too far away from accepted norms.

There is only one clan that openly hires Gemmed, and can provide a staff supported "boss" for a Gemmed, and that's House Oash.  Independent Gemmed who want to act as leaders amongst their peers can try to do so, but this is made very difficult by IC forces.  Part of accepting the role of a Gemmed "leader" is to accept and deal with those IC forces...but it sure sucks.  Being a leader without any actual authority or rank is a constant struggle, and that's what you're forced to do if you want to play a Gemmed 'Sergeant'-type person.  I've seen Gemmed rise in prominence throughout the years, but because they have no rank or standing, they have to spend half their time convincing the population to listen to them, rather than lead.

If I were able to wave a magick wand and implement a single, realistic change, it would be adding one Gemmed rank within the Arm of the Dragon (with perhaps other ranks above it that are held by NPCs).  This is not to say they should have crim-code immunity, just be a recognized servant to the Templarate, with a uniform, and the limited (but undeniable) authority that comes with that to lead.  I would then open a role call for this rank to be filled a single time, and make the position available for promotion in-game with a limit of no more than 2 PC's able to attain the rank at any given time, but only in exceptional cases would that 2nd spot ever be filled.  

This would create a carrot for Gemmed to chase, trying to attain some meager amount of status, and it would give those characters that invest countless hours of work into leading the authority to actually do so in some limited capacity.

I really like this idea.  The PC Templars have a lot on their plate to manage leadership for the gemmed, and so too I imagine the AoD Sergeant.

It would be nice to have three options available for gemmed:

1. Independent.
2. AoD Auxillaries.
3. Oash.

[Marauder Moe]

That's something that does happen fairly often, actually, with varying levels of formality.

Any templar can just say "YOU!  You're now my magickal deputy.  Spread my word to your lowly quarter.  Also, play nice with my Sergeant here."  No need for a coded clan/rank or soldier-level compound access.

[wizturbo]

That's something that does happen fairly often, actually, with varying levels of formality.

Any templar can just say "YOU!  You're now my magickal deputy.  Spread my word to your lowly quarter.  Also, play nice with my Sergeant here."  No need for a coded clan/rank or soldier-level compound access.

I can say from experience that there are serious problems with this model.   This Gemmed person's authority is completely derived from a single Templar's opinion of them.  If that Templar dies, stores, or goes inactive, you have no support.  You don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent.  There's also the problem of a single Templar's opinion can conflict with another Templar's opinion.  It isn't like this in a clan.  If a Templar doesn't like a Sergeant, that doesn't mean the Sergeant cannot do their job.  It means they have an angry Templar A to deal with, which is bad, but they still have a rank and job to do.

As for soldier-level compound access, I never said that.  All that's needed is an official role, a uniform, and character reports sent to AOD as required of any sponsored leadership role.

[Delirium]

I'm not sure they even need a uniform, beyond a shoulder-patch or something.

I like the idea though. I've seen it done (sort of, less officially) with great success. Not only did it entertain the gemmed it promoted a far better level of RP around gemmed interactions.

[nauta]

That's something that does happen fairly often, actually, with varying levels of formality.

Any templar can just say "YOU!  You're now my magickal deputy.  Spread my word to your lowly quarter.  Also, play nice with my Sergeant here."  No need for a coded clan/rank or soldier-level compound access.

I can say from experience that there are serious problems with this model.   This Gemmed person's authority is completely derived from a single Templar's opinion of them.  If that Templar dies, stores, or goes inactive, you have no support.  You don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent.  There's also the problem of a single Templar's opinion can conflict with another Templar's opinion.  It isn't like this in a clan.  If a Templar doesn't like a Sergeant, that doesn't mean the Sergeant cannot do their job.  It means they have an angry Templar A to deal with, which is bad, but they still have a rank and job to do.

As for soldier-level compound access, I never said that.  All that's needed is an official role, a uniform, and character reports sent to AOD as required of any sponsored leadership role.

Precisely this.  Especially the leadership reports: with the new change in the way character reports are handled, there are -no- gemmed that actually file leadership character reports (unless I'm mistaken).

If it were turned into an actual coded clan, there'd also be ways to coordinate with other gemmed under that leadership.  No need for a building, or grub, or even uniforms, but the rollcall, absent threads, and the place for rumours / coordinating RPTs would make life easier.

[Patuk]

Why again do we view gemmed deriving their status off of one single templar as a Bad Thing?

[wizturbo]

.... with the new change in the way character reports are handled, there are -no- gemmed that actually file leadership character reports (unless I'm mistaken).

There are clanned leadership positions for Gemmed within House Oash, but they're only obtained ICly, which means there can be long stretches of time between such a position being filled (if ever, really).

[Marauder Moe]

I can say from experience that there are serious problems with this model.   This Gemmed person's authority is completely derived from a single Templar's opinion of them.  If that Templar dies, stores, or goes inactive, you have no support.

So?

You don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent.

Not true.  I believe non-Oash gemmed, when reporting is needed, submit them to AoD.

There's also the problem of a single Templar's opinion can conflict with another Templar's opinion.

So?

It isn't like this in a clan.

Sometimes it is.

If a Templar doesn't like a Sergeant, that doesn't mean the Sergeant cannot do their job.  It means they have an angry Templar A to deal with, which is bad, but they still have a rank and job to do.

OK....

As for soldier-level compound access, I never said that.  All that's needed is an official role, a uniform, and character reports sent to AOD as required of any sponsored leadership role.

Pretty much the main point of coded clan ranks is clan property access.  Without that, "official" has little meaning.  Uniforms are just items.  And, as I said, gemmed already report to AoD.

[wizturbo]

Why again do we view gemmed deriving their status off of one single templar as a Bad Thing?

If you invest 6 months into a character, spend 20-30 hours a week playing it to be that Gemmed leader, and have everything disappear because of non-IC events....you might view this as a Bad Thing.  Also, by not being a clanned leader, you don't have the same level of staff support that playing a leader really requires.  

[nauta]

.... with the new change in the way character reports are handled, there are -no- gemmed that actually file leadership character reports (unless I'm mistaken).

There are clanned leadership positions for Gemmed within House Oash, but they're only obtained ICly, which means there can be long stretches of time between such a position being filled (if ever, really).

They don't file leadership reports.

[wizturbo]

Multiple instances of:

So?

By not having this, it makes it hard to play Gemmed leaders, which means fewer people try to do it, and the Gemmed have less fun as a result.  The whole point of this thread seems to be ideas on how to fix that.  Soooooo....  That's what I'm doing!  Bringing up ideas on how to improve things.  You can always make an argument for why the status quo is fine, but I don't think it's fine, and some others don't think its fine.  

[Talia]

You don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent.

I believe non-Oash gemmed, when reporting is needed, submit them to AoD.

Correct, non-Oash gemmed do report to the staff of the AoD, and we give them the same level of support we do to Oash gemmed. Oash gemmed may or may not have somewhat more hands-on leadership (if there is a noble PC who wants to do that with them), but individual templars historically are pretty good about involving gemmed when those gemmed players want to be involved.

And Oash noble PCs die/store/whatever too, so gemmed who are in Oash can lose their leadership and need to find new too. Same thing goes for any noble house employee.

I get that it seems different but from a staffing perspective the dynamics are very similar.

[wizturbo]

They don't file leadership reports.

Perhaps not official leader reports, but I certainly had full clan staff support when I was in such a position by filing normal reports.  Nearly on par with what I'd get from a sponsored role, in fact.

[wizturbo]

And Oash noble PCs die/store/whatever too, so gemmed who are in Oash can lose their leadership and need to find new too. Same thing goes for any noble house employee.

I get that it seems different but from a staffing perspective the dynamics are very similar.

The key difference is an Oashi (find out IC clan rank) doesn't lose their rank if a noble dies/stores.  They're still a leader.  Their world may still be turned upside down of course, but they're in a position above others in the clan in which they can lead from.

Also, in the past, my non-clanned gemmed received significantly less support.  Of course that's in the past, and things are under different management now...so that may no longer be the case!

[Patuk]

Why again do we view gemmed deriving their status off of one single templar as a Bad Thing?

If you invest 6 months into a character, spend 20-30 hours a week playing it to be that Gemmed leader, and have everything disappear because of non-IC events....you might view this as a Bad Thing.  Also, by not being a clanned leader, you don't have the same level of staff support that playing a leader really requires. 

So the problem is Gemmed being treated like every other clanless leader figure? Why again is that a Bad Thing^TM?

[wizturbo]

What other clanless leader figures are there again?  Independent merchants?  They have a framework for becoming an actual clan.  Desert raiders?  By their very nature, they don't need a Templar to support them...  (lol).  What exactly are you comparing this to?

[BadSkeelz]

Also, in the past, my non-clanned gemmed received significantly less support.  Of course that's in the past, and things are under different management now...so that may no longer be the case!

Was your non-clanned Gemmed outgoing, reminding others of their existence and utility? Was he not a fuck-up? Was he fortunate to be playing at a time when there happened to be leaders who wanted to include and utilize Gemmed in plots (as many Templars and officers in the last few years were)? If the answer to any of those questions is "no" then you might have had trouble interacting with plots, regardless of whether you had a clan structure to be plugged in to.

Gemmed aren't supposed to be respected by the populace. They're not even really supposed to be respected by the Templars, save perhaps as useful and talented pets. They're weapons, quasi-slaves, and have a lot of social rules to reinforce that status. That's their place in the game world. Giving them much more is going to further undermine Armageddon's claim to being a low fantasy setting.

[Beethoven]

Wait, hold on. I've been specifically told that they're not quasi-slaves, and that despite the extremely overbearing social stigma, that they're free citizens in exactly the same way that Commoner Joe is a free citizen (and nobody is really 'free,' of course.) They're 'weapons' because unlike Commoner Joe, they happen to be useful to the templarate in that way, and the templarate can do as they please with anybody. Commoner Joe is pretty useless, Gemmer Bob is a grenade. Am I wrong?

[BadSkeelz]

They can be compelled to perform actions a whoooole lot easier than Commoner Joe. Legally they are not slaves, functionally they are. They exist at the Templarate's mercy and convenience.

[Delirium]

Wait, hold on. I've been specifically told that they're not quasi-slaves, and that despite the extremely overbearing social stigma, that they're free citizens in exactly the same way that Commoner Joe is a free citizen (and nobody is really 'free,' of course.) They're 'weapons' because unlike Commoner Joe, they happen to be useful to the templarate in that way, and the templarate can do as they please with anybody. Commoner Joe is pretty useless, Gemmer Bob is a grenade. Am I wrong?

You're not wrong. BadSkeelz just really, really hates magick.

p.s. low fantasy != low magick

[Beethoven]

It's true that it is extremely easy for the templarate to coerce the gemmed, but I have read extensively on these very boards that it is a mistake to think of the gemmed as slaves in any sense. Maybe that is for OOCish reasons, but that is a distinction that I have seen drawn before.