Gemmed Temples Idea

[nauta]

Alas, as much many of the ideas shared in this thread are what I would personally prefer to see IG, there have been numerous occasions where Staff has said that their implementation will not happen.

This isn't to say that changes may not be implemented where the Gemmed are concerned, just that the ideas presented here are not the sort of change that will be.

I'd agree that whatever might be implemented should be subtle.  I also doubt anything dramatic needs to be changed - a lot of it would be tweaks to documentation, if anything.  The magick system is fabulous, there's a lot of things that work really well. 

One problem with the discussion itself is that it is basically impossible to have a discussion among the players about magick.  This is a good thing: it keeps the mystery.   But it means all we can really talk about is how the non-gemmed should RP encountering the gemmed, other than vague allusions to things already in public documentation (the fact that Oash and the Templarate hire gemmed, for instance, and that there are different kinds).

But, at the same time, I would think a gemmed board or something like that would be pretty nice, to discuss magickal concepts and how to roleplay them, to kvetch a little about playability as a gemmed, things like that.  It'd probably also lighten staff workload a bit, since I imagine all new gemmed fire off very similar questions to them.

[Eyeball]

Great, gemmed already struggle to find a raison d'etre and people here are trying to think of ways to make them even less useful and more unpopular.

[wizturbo]

Disagree. I do not think it is supposed to be the personality of the magicker that is terrifying to those around them, but what they wield.

Sure, but if the person behind that magick is reasonable and calm, then there's less reason to fear them.  What I don't see much of is driven, scary magickers, who have their power and use it for less than humanitarian purposes.  Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against? 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Great, gemmed already struggle to find a raison d'etre and people here are trying to think of ways to make them even less useful and more unpopular.

Not at all. My issue is that I'm asked to pretend my character has a reason to feel the way he does. Without divorcing common sense, right now, simple observation would tell him that a mage won't hurt him unless the mage wants to, and thus there is no reason to eschew mages who have not hurt him. That is what I'm supposed to believe, too.

I don't like believing things that don't make sense to him, by extension, me. So either make Magick actually scary, or change the required social concept of Magickers must all be scary. Let rogue mages be the villians. But of course, unless this became acceptable, my characters will generally play Magicker fear/disgust. It's just that it's not one of my favorite aspects.

[wizturbo]

Not at all. My issue is that I'm asked to pretend my character has a reason to feel the way he does. Without divorcing common sense, right now, simple observation would tell him that a mage won't hurt him unless the mage wants to, and thus there is no reason to eschew mages who have not hurt him. That is what I'm supposed to believe, too.

Bingo.  And I don't think we need to make magick inherently something to fear to accomplish this, we just need magickers with the personality to hit that home. 

[Marauder Moe]

The reasons to hate/fear magick aren't based on common sense and observation.

They're based on upbringing, culture, myth, stereotypes, and propaganda.  Commoners are also poor, illiterate, and generally uneducated.  They're not taught to question society and employ reason and observation.  Your character should start out hating/fearing magick because that's how the docs say they were probably raised.

[wizturbo]

Relevant poll:  http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48952.0.html

The majority of the player base overwhelmingly believes magick is good as is, or they want more of it.  Very easy to lose sight of that with the vocal minority of magick haters on the GDB

[BadSkeelz]

I hate magick and voted that the amount of representation it has in game is fine.

[nauta]

We sort of have two discussions running in tandem here.

1. Discussion (even meta-discussion about the discussion) about how to make gemmed life more playable for the gemmed.

2. Discussion about how to understand the fact that gemmed are documented as being scary.

I'm not sure how that happened.

[Eyeball]

I hate magick

Since this seems to be a common sentiment, why don't we simply move it out of Allanak. Set up some mixed magicker/mundane colony across the Silt Sea. Give it some issues where it has to struggle to survive. Also give it some things to generate trade with the mainland. Both of these things will give magickers something to do. Let the mundanes whose players don't have stomachs churning with dislike for magick cross the sea to visit and trade. Let the others live in a templar-and-quarter-sorcerer-magick-only world. That should make magick rare enough that when it does happen, people can play being terrified by a truly unusual event.

[wizturbo]

Okay, fine Nauta.  I'll get back on topic.

I agree something could and should be done to make Gemmed play more fun, but the game was built with so many IC barriers to that it's a daunting problem to fix.  I've played a lot of long lived Gemmed, and essentially my diagnosis of the problem is that the #1 issue with the role is a lack of IC leadership.  And I don't mean leadership in the Templar or Noble sense, I mean ground level "Sergeant" style leadership.  When that kind of leadership was available, played a Gemmed was a lot of fun, and even kept things closer to the documented setting in my opinion to prevent things from veering too far away from accepted norms.

There is only one clan that openly hires Gemmed, and can provide a staff supported "boss" for a Gemmed, and that's House Oash.  Independent Gemmed who want to act as leaders amongst their peers can try to do so, but this is made very difficult by IC forces.  Part of accepting the role of a Gemmed "leader" is to accept and deal with those IC forces...but it sure sucks.  Being a leader without any actual authority or rank is a constant struggle, and that's what you're forced to do if you want to play a Gemmed 'Sergeant'-type person.  I've seen Gemmed rise in prominence throughout the years, but because they have no rank or standing, they have to spend half their time convincing the population to listen to them, rather than lead.

If I were able to wave a magick wand and implement a single, realistic change, it would be adding one Gemmed rank within the Arm of the Dragon (with perhaps other ranks above it that are held by NPCs).  This is not to say they should have crim-code immunity, just be a recognized servant to the Templarate, with a uniform, and the limited (but undeniable) authority that comes with that to lead.  I would then open a role call for this rank to be filled a single time, and make the position available for promotion in-game with a limit of no more than 2 PC's able to attain the rank at any given time, but only in exceptional cases would that 2nd spot ever be filled.  

This would create a carrot for Gemmed to chase, trying to attain some meager amount of status, and it would give those characters that invest countless hours of work into leading the authority to actually do so in some limited capacity.

[BadSkeelz]

Moving all the Magickers to some other part of the game world will do nothing to solve the problem of magickers not feeling fully connected to the game world. Either they become an even more isolated role, or it becomes a cancerous blight on the gameworld as Magicktown sucks up Staff attention and resources (real or perceived). I would rather have mages better incorporated in the world than separated from it.

Which brings us to the problem of how to deal with mages. Hating mages in game is hard. They're powerful and useful, making them very attractive allies. I hate magick way more OOC than my PCs tend to do IC, because they're useful friends. At least for me, this makes it easier to hate Magick OOC because its power is always tempting us to break docs and not hate it in-character.

[nauta]

Okay, fine Nauta.  I'll get back on topic.

Good boy. :-)

[Eyeball]

Moving all the Magickers to some other part of the game world will do nothing to solve the problem of magickers not feeling fully connected to the game world. Either they become an even more isolated role

It would give them things to do that they don't have now (e.g. participate in the village's fight to survive, participate in the village's associated gathering of materials and making of things for trade), and without making the isolation any worse than it really is (which is already almost like being a ghost). Actually, if anything they'd be less isolated because there wouldn't be the Oashi/non-Oashi divide, with every Oashi mage sworn into a cloak of secrecy and apartness from the community.

or it becomes a cancerous blight on the gameworld as Magicktown sucks up Staff attention and resources (real or perceived).

You mean like staff actually giving them some attention and their own plots/challenges? Sounds like a good idea to me. I suppose there would need to be some quota to prevent too many PCs from being mages at the same time.

Here's a question for you, BadSkeelz. Have you ever actually played a mage? From your OOC hatred of magick, I doubt it. Maybe you should try walking a mile in a mage's shoes.

[wizturbo]

For what it's worth, I think magicktown wouldn't be very much fun at all.  Not to mention it would never be given a chance to establish itself, as the IC Sorcerer-Kings would snuff it out, as they have in the past when such things cropped up.

[Eyeball]

For what it's worth, I think magicktown wouldn't be very much fun at all.  Not to mention it would never be given a chance to establish itself, as the IC Sorcerer-Kings would snuff it out, as they have in the past when such things cropped up.

Well, they could still be gemmed, with a few templars around.

[MeTekillot]

Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against? 

Getting wombo-combo'd by Gemmed Seal Team Six, usually.

[Eyeball]

Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against?  

Maybe if they actually had to do evil things to gain certain powers. And were given more non-lethal but vexing curses to deploy.

[BadSkeelz]

or it becomes a cancerous blight on the gameworld as Magicktown sucks up Staff attention and resources (real or perceived).

You mean like staff actually giving them some attention and their own plots/challenges? Sounds like a good idea to me. I suppose there would need to be some quota to prevent too many PCs from being mages at the same time.

Here's a question for you, BadSkeelz. Have you ever actually played a mage? From your OOC hatred of magick, I doubt it. Maybe you should try walking a mile in a mage's shoes.

Staff giving anyone "Their own plots/challenges" is inherently suspect if those plots only affect a small number of players. Better to have plots that engage a large number from a broad swathe of groups, mundane and magick alike.

Guilty as charged for never playing a Mage, though, and I make no apologies. Seen enough of how they play (From their side of the monitor) to realize it's probably just not my cup of tea, playstyle-wise. Too reliant on triggers, grind-rewarding. I also just hate magick thematically: it retards the setting, reduces too many details to "a magicker did it" and acts as a block for real meaningful mundane-driven change. We'll "never" see an independent village arise since the all-powerful Sorcerer Kings and their magickal servants and slaves will blow it up with one alias. (Such villages have actually arisen, though... with magicker help). Magick's also inherently unAmerican, since mages are living proof that some people are just better than others.

My thematic distaste for magick extends beyond Armageddon, and doesn't include the players who play interesting magicker characters in spite of the magick.

My ideal Magicker is like what you'd see in the old Conan stories: powerful, mysterious, inherently evil and terrifying, and capable of being beaten to death with a piece of furniture if you can get the drop on them.

Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against?  

Maybe if they actually had to do evil things to gain certain powers.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the docs that a lot of the magick hate comes from the fact that Defilers are complete fucking assholes and the reason Zalanthas sucks, but the commoner populace is too stupid to know the difference between them and Jo Schmoe Elementalist (which, so long as they're not personally malevolent or accidentally summoning elementals, can be rather harmless or even benevolent)? Shit, people don't even know the Sorcerer Kings are Sorcerers.

[TheWanderer]

Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against? 

Getting wombo-combo'd by Gemmed Seal Team Six, usually.

heh

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I hate no desire to make magick disappear. What I DO desire is less of an unrealistic situation. You can say we're supposed to do this and that all you like (and yes, I will do this or that), but until it makes sense to me that this is happening and it doesn't seem contrived, I will OOCly hate it. I've always felt that IC and OOC need to match up a bit to make playing something work better. Because OOCly, there's no reason for me to not travel with Jane the Gemmer, but ICly, I certainly believe there is.

That's why I wish magick in the South wasn't hated as bad. I had no issue with the North hating it, but then there was no Gemmed Quarter in the North. Until the Gemmed have a quasi-game to play, they will always feel isolated, so give them in-Quarter politics. And until crossing paths with a mages who is a Gemmer comes with the real, coded threat that your character might actually end up worse off, I will always hate the idea that my southern character isn't doing right if he or she doesn't hate Highlord/Templar-controlled mages.

Put me in the wild though, and I have no problem hating a unknown magicker who comes along, both ICly and OOCly, because that mage is probably doing bad, since the Highlord and Templars aren't around to mind him.

[Delirium]

I think more appropriate words for the gemmed are "uncomfortable" "fearful" "superstitious" "ignorant" as opposed to "hate".

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Eh, those words lead to hate, I'm sure, dear.

[LauraMars]

fear --> anger

anger --> hate

hate -->

[Delirium]

My point is that there's an enormous grey area full of rich roleplay opportunities to be had, instead of defaulting directly to "hate".

Allanak's gemmed are subhuman and shunned, but this isn't Tuluk. They aren't kill on sight, they are tolerated - grudgingly, suspiciously, perhaps unwillingly - but tolerated all the same.

My problem is that people seem to flip beteween two binary states of roleplay - open acceptance or overt hatred - rather than exploring all the areas in between.