Armageddon General Discussion Board

So, on clans: where'd they all go?  

I remember when I first started playing I'd see clans celebrating victories at the Gaj, doing funny things together in the streets or the bar, and just looking publicly cool.  I don't see that at all anymore (caveat: obviously limited to my perspective). Where'd they all go?  Indeed, I think a public presence is the best recruitment route - I really wanted to join a clan back then precisely because everyone looked like they were having fun!  Now I see a lone Kadian or a lone Salarr, and they tap their temple and disappear randomly.  Or I don't see more than one or two Bynners in the Gaj all week, then all the sudden there's ten Bynners at the Stables doing something cool, apparently, but totally with no public face to it.  So either clans are empty or the plots are getting insular and they're all holed up in their compounds.  (Or this is the fallacy of false options, and I'm just never there to witness the public displays of cool!)  This includes AoD: they used to patrol and be out there in the public eye.  Now it's hard to find one to assassinate...  I get it, some clans are insular (Fale, for instance, or Oash), but others shouldn't be.

Anyway, this is a random arm. thought, not much more to say, except maybe a suggestion or two (esp. to leaders in the clan):

1. Mingle! I remember when I was in a GMH we were encouraged to go out and get drunk at the Gaj (or whatever) wearing our cloaks and looking fucking cool.  I believe it was even an order.  Mingle, clans, mingle!

2. Fuck the schedules.  (Well, kinda.)  I noticed that a lot of clan schedules encourage clannies to spend a lot of their playtime inside the clan compounds.  I get the motivation for that - it's to make sure all the players are in one spot, right? - but ... it draws players out of the interaction base.  (I remember playing a Bynner and trying to obey the schedules, which resulted in just idling in the Byn hall alone, a lot.  Then someone would log in, spar, and logout.)  Yes, I could break the rules ICly and then face the IC consequences, but maybe we could lighten up on the rules/schedules, or reconceive them a bit?  Maybe have Byn tasks that take you outside the compound, or Salarr tasks that take you outside the compounds.  Maybe this week you are supposed to strut-your-shit at the Gaj, or hang out in the market with the Salarr shops.  As to what I perceive as the motivation for such 'in-compound' schedules --- namely that they are there for playability in the sense that then all the players will be in the compound so you can play with them ---, I'm a little dubious: After all, we have the Way, and most of the indie "crews" I've joined have been able to get together without schedules just fine.  Log in, check the tavern, check the compound, send a bunch of ways...

Again, I could be totally wrong both on what's happening and my proposed cures, but I thought I'd toss it out there.  

EDITED TO ADD: Also, I don't want to ruffle any feathers of current leadership and clannies!  It's just my perspective, and maybe you are doing precisely that, or don't think it's worth doing that.  I know it is tough and you guys are great RPers...  I'm also not in either camp in the indy / clan war.  If anything, I lean more towards clans.  (Don't hit me, Fuji.)

I recommend working your way up through the ranks of a clan, taking over a leadership role, and being the change you want to see.

The best clan leaders are generally the ones who have had complaints exactly like yours and then make it a goal to do something about it.  :)

tl;dr

Be the change.

Got 'em.

I agree with you nautu.  Those are all good things for clan members to do. It's hard to know where clan people are, I hope they aren't all hiding out in their clan halls (maybe they are all hunting/getting water? ;-) ).  Maybe they'd be more inclined to hang out publicly if there were slides (stolen gypsy water slide technology?) they could use to quickly transport them to a social center.  For merchant house employees, I suspect some don't hang out publicly just because it's a long walk to the tavern.

Sweating, the roly-poly Kadian merchant says, in southern-accented sirihish:
     "I wish they'd move the bars closer to the compounds."

Or maybe they don't have 10 hours a day to play anymore and when they actually get to log in, they do clan-related stuff within their clan and take care of what needs to be taken care of.

People in clans don't owe indies or other clans anything. If they don't want to hang out in taverns, literally the most boring of RP imo, they don't have to. Most meaningful rp I've had has been in private areas.

Is Friday means mudsex, of course.

Clans go up and down, they are more and then less visible, they ebb and flow. It's not a constant. When the Byn is the Clan of the Moment, then there will be 87 Bynners hanging out at the Gaj all the time and everyone in the playerbase says "OMFG WHY SO MANY BYN." Then a leader stores or dies, and the Byn drops off, and suddenly it's "OMFG WHY SO MANY AOD CANT A ELF GET A BREAK."

GMH clans also might not even be in the same city as you at any given moment; they travel. Yet another reason why you don't see them all the time.

Clan schedules aren't the reason why you don't see clan members, and I could make really long case for why clan schedules are necessary and good (from my perspective as a veteran leader), but I can't really be arsed to do that at the moment.

Also I have to say that I agree that players in clans don't owe you anything if you've chosen not to join their clan, for whatever reason. Clans are a little tribal like that, and that's 100% IC.

I see it the other way around, if I see too many clan people hanging out in the taverns all the time, I'm going to assume that leadership in the clan at the moment is kinda non-existent or sucks.

Like if I see Legion or Militia PCs constantly sitting at the bar on "watch", it doesn't really make me want to play in that clan.

Of course, there's always that one guy who plays Arm 15 hours a day, so you can't really judge the clan by him, but if the rest of the clan people are never seen, then I'm assuming that they are often up to something so that clan must be busy/fun to be in.

I think nautu has a point... and as usual the truth probably lies somewhere in between the two extremes being expressed.

Clans should be doing their own thing, developing their own plot strains in such a way that brings that clan to life ...

But player isolation isn't good for the game.  We know this already - it's driven changes like starting newbies in one of the big centers of civilization, and the (contentious) removal of the sorcerer class, a role which completely isolated players by design.

Moreover, one of the greatest OOC motivators (these are the important ones) to get people into clans (and we want to do this, right?) is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be, with interactions that extend beyond two other characters (basically what nauta said, only he said it better).

Moderated for not being constructive. Love, Rahnevyn.

Quote from: Molten Heart on October 24, 2014, 12:14:03 PM
For merchant house employees, I suspect some don't hang out publicly just because it's a long walk to the tavern.

Maybe there should be some kind of a taxi system for the GMH members.  A wagon that sits on the end of the Merchant's Road that you can enter, 'say Gaj', and it will drop you off there.  Or a few different wagons on staggered schedules that just move back and forth between the compounds and the different taverns.

The wagon interior itself could serve as a kind of impromptu meeting place for the merchants and their employees.

It's good for clans to be seen doing things.  If they're going to be exclusive and isolated a clan should occasionally be seen being "isolated" to some degree.  So the guys at the bar (or whomever sees them) can say "Gee... I wanna be cool and be in Clan X one day." or "Bah... Clan X... They don't associate with anyone, they think they are better than everybody.  What a bunch of pretentious pricks!" Networking outside one's clan makes for more interaction outside of one's clan which can instigate conflict, intrigue, corruption, betrayal, murder, etc.

And I just made that road shorter  :-\

Moderated for not being constructive. Love, Rahnevyn.

Quite a bit shorter. Though back in the days where you'd find poor merchant newbies dying of hunger halfway between their compounds and Meleth's circle, I do remember musing about setting up a taxi service.

I wonder if a giant has enough stamina to subdue someone and sprint-carry them from one side of town to the other...

Quote from: Adhira on October 24, 2014, 12:57:46 PM
And I just made that road shorter  :-\

I noticed this and it took me a while to figure this out.  My spam walking is forever changed.

Thank you, btw.  :-)

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 12:45:10 PM
But player isolation isn't good for the game.  We know this already - it's driven changes like starting newbies in one of the big centers of civilization, and the (contentious) removal of the sorcerer class, a role which completely isolated players by design.

Clans don't isolate players. They in fact do the opposite; they bring players together.

Also I have no idea what you mean about one of the OOC motivators being to show players that clans are dynamic places to be. That...doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote from: Adhira on October 24, 2014, 12:57:46 PM
And I just made that road shorter  :-\

Make it... Shorterer!

Using a black leather whip as traffic control, the muscular, sunburnt human shouts, in sirihish:
   "Clear the road!"

[5 seconds later]

An erdlu-driven chariot has arrived from the east.
An erdlu-driven chariot leaves west.

Your hat gets blown off.

Wanted to add a third suggestion:

3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.
 

Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2014, 01:04:20 PM
3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.

This is not always as appropriate to do as you think it is. For the most part, in game rumors should be spread PC to PC rather than by rumor board. City boards are supposed to represent things everyone in the entire city would know; is everyone in the city really going to know about the Byn's latest scrab kill-fest? Yeah, no.

I think your suggestions are really well-intended but, to be honest, you don't have a lot of experience with the game. You're attempting to give advice to leaders with a lot more experience in the game, in clans, and in leadership than you currently have. That's probably not going to be received so well.

Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2014, 01:04:20 PM
Wanted to add a third suggestion:

3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.
 

That's pretty frequently done, at least for those clans that "Accomplish" things. Typically the combat ones, or the hunting arms of the Merchant Houses. Though even the actual merchants are quick to advertise their big events on the boards. Tip: if you see an event being hosted or sponsored by a clan, read that as code for "This clan is setting stuff up and gets to have behind-the-scenes fun."

I suspect it'd be even more common if working with the board wasn't so onerous, but there you go.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 01:01:29 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 12:45:10 PM
But player isolation isn't good for the game.  We know this already - it's driven changes like starting newbies in one of the big centers of civilization, and the (contentious) removal of the sorcerer class, a role which completely isolated players by design.

Clans don't isolate players. They in fact do the opposite; they bring players together.

It's worth differentiating isolating players [from the rest of the player base] and bringing players [in the same clan] together.  I suspect you know the difference but you're being disingenuous for some reason

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 01:01:29 PM
Also I have no idea what you mean about one of the OOC motivators being to show players that clans are dynamic places to be. That...doesn't make any sense at all.

Rude. :)  You mean this line, right? "One of the greatest OOC motivators to get people into clans is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be."  Meet me halfway, at least... what doesn't make sense?

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 01:07:36 PM

Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2014, 01:04:20 PM
3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.

This is not always as appropriate to do as you think it is. For the most part, in game rumors should be spread PC to PC rather than by rumor board. City boards are supposed to represent things everyone in the entire city would know; is everyone in the city really going to know about the Byn's latest scrab kill-fest? Yeah, no.

I think your suggestions are really well-intended but, to be honest, you don't have a lot of experience with the game. You're attempting to give advice to leaders with a lot more experience in the game, in clans, and in leadership than you currently have. That's probably not going to be received so well.

this person is reiterating a good suggestion, and we all benefit from reminders on how the game can be made more engaging from each other, no need to attack their "experience with the game"

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 01:08:47 PM
It's worth differentiating isolating players [from the rest of the player base] and bringing players [in the same clan] together.  I suspect you know the difference but you're being disingenuous for some reason

Sir, I am never disingenuous. Imagine this game with no clans in it: It would be far more isolating. Everyone who wanted to play a desert elf would be scattered across the world with no idea who else was playing a desert elf, nor any location to check in at to see if there were tribemates about. Everyone who wanted to play a human hunter would have to cautiously test out other hunters to see if it was even possible to venture a short ways into the desert together to kill scrab. Nobles would never have aides and would have to pursue all their machinations without any minions to trust.

Clans don't isolate the playerbase. They, in fact, bring players together. Period. Some players choose to play outside of the clan structure, and thereby choose to isolate themselves. That is OK; sometimes I do it too. But that's not clans doing that, it's players doing that.

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 01:08:47 PM
Rude. :)  You mean this line, right? "One of the greatest OOC motivators to get people into clans is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be."  Meet me halfway, at least... what doesn't make sense?

The whole statement doesn't make sense. Having played a leader plenty, I have never once thought to myself, OOCly, "Yeah I gotta get people in here so they can see how dynamic clans are." That's not an OOC motivator at all; I'm not on some kind of "convert all the indies" crusade. (Because then sometimes I'd have to convert myself; about a quarter of my PCs have been unclanned.) I still don't even know if that's what you meant since you didn't re-explain, you just quoted yourself. Rude :P

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 01:13:46 PM
this person is reiterating a good suggestion, and we all benefit from reminders on how the game can be made more engaging from each other, no need to attack their "experience with the game"

You think it's a good suggestion, I think it's not a good suggestion, and I explained why. Guess what, one of the first things I ever got corrected on in the game by staff was using rumor boards too much and for the wrong purpose. I'm not "attacking" her experience, I'm saying she doesn't have much, and that from the point of view of players who actually do have quite a bit more experience, her words are not endearing.

lol @ Mae Konviwedu's perfect song rumors.

Quote from: Reiloth on October 24, 2014, 01:26:54 PM
lol @ Mae Konviwedu's perfect song rumors.

SHUT UP

lololololololol

I don't think there's anything wrong with putting up a rumor board post in the Gaj about a bunch of bloody T'zai Byn tromping in and telling tales of the harrowing crazy contract they just survived. As long as you leave the details to be found out in person, it at least shows that something has been going on and gives people a hook to go "So, how about that Byn contract, huh? Hear anything about it?"

There's a difference between posting too much information and... well... not posting anything at all.

This is also turning into a discussion worthy of its own thread, so I'm going to split it off RAT.

edit: and, split.

I'd also like to say that I don't see anything wrong with a new player offering their perspective.

Sometimes there is a lot of value in looking at things with a fresh pair of eyes. Veterans might start losing sight of the desert for all the sand, because they're simply used to things being the way they are. New player insight is valuable and shouldn't be immediately discounted.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 01:31:47 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on October 24, 2014, 01:26:54 PM
lol @ Mae Konviwedu's perfect song rumors.

SHUT UP

lololololololol

That's like, rumor board noob move #3, followed by "assassin seeks work" and "out of town wanderer seeks the legacy of his destroyed tribe but will work for Byn".

If newbies feel like they have new ideas to add to leadership (and believe me, I've seen it in action a lot), I'd urge them not to be shy about stepping up for leadership roles. While I can't personally vouch for sponsored roles like GMH Merchants, I can tell you that there are plenty of leadership roles that can be obtained relatively easily by relatively new characters. Sergeants and corporals across all the combat clans specifically come to mind. The only basic requirements for these roles are longevity and a modicum of competence. They're good introductions for seeing what clans can do, what it takes to run them, and what you can do to keep them fun.

Quote from: Delirium on October 24, 2014, 01:41:19 PM
I'd also like to say that I don't see anything wrong with a new player offering their perspective.

Sometimes there is a lot of value in looking at things with a fresh pair of eyes. Veterans might start losing sight of the desert for all the sand, because they're simply used to things being the way they are. New player insight is valuable and shouldn't be immediately discounted.

Yeah, that.  I didn't mean it to be advice, and I threw it out there to hear the points from the other side too, so that's fine, except the "fuck you" comment.  That was just dumb.

As a new player, I found clan life to be a bit isolating and indy life to be a bit isolating, and thought the suggestions (just things I've seen in the past really that made sense to me and which I don't see as much any more, although they still happen from time to time) would be / were / are (to me at least) a good way to make both lives less isolating (especially for off-peakers).  It's about finding a happy medium between secret clan-only plots that involve a few players and massive spamtalk at the Gaj / arena ...  I felt things were leaning more towards the former than the latter in recent months... Maybe?  

I actually view this as less of a clan problem, and more of a "why should I be in a tavern, again?" problem.

Tavern RP is generally boring, and isn't often a great source of news like it has been in the past.  I think there are IC ways to fix that, and maybe in the future I'll be the change :)

Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2014, 01:54:05 PM
Yeah, that.  I didn't mean it to be advice, and I threw it out there to hear the points from the other side too, so that's fine, except the "fuck you" comment.  That was just dumb.

It was just dumb, and on that note, folks, please don't do this. I moderated a few posts up this thread.

I think this is a good thread, please play nice so it can continue.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 24, 2014, 01:56:50 PM
I actually view this as less of a clan problem, and more of a "why should I be in a tavern, again?" problem.

Tavern RP is generally boring, and isn't often a great source of news like it has been in the past.  I think there are IC ways to fix that, and maybe in the future I'll be the change :)

I do feel like the attitude has gotten far too coy about simple information exchange. Most of the shit that happens in taverns should be the stuff of everyday gossip and easily shared, it's not like it's a game-breaking, earth-shattering secret that Amos got in a fight with Malik or that Lady Dimplebottom is rumored to have a half-breed lover or that the T'zai Byn killed a bunch of spiders and managed not to die.

Share some stories, gossip with each other, start some shit, don't just sit around like lumps or jaw about the weather and make awkward passes at that cute PC next to you, and if someone's trying to talk to you, refusing to share gossip because it's "valuable" is just silly as heck.

If you act like even simple gossip is too SEKRIT to share, it turns tavern sitting into the equivalent of watching paint dry.

Yes, some PCs are anti social and if you're playing an anti social PC its tough to be the change, but the rest of you? Get to it.

Well it's true that sometimes I'll see ten people in my clan online and none in a tavern. It's not that we hate taverns but that we're used to making our own fun. Don't rely on others to entertain you if possible.

I'm not even sure why "They aren't in a tavern.", is even mentionable.

Zalanthas is a world where everyone has an instant free cellphone programmed into their skulls.

It also acceptable (much to my chagrin, but I won't go into that) to contact people you have never met before just by knowing their name.

Them, "not being in a tavern", isn't any reason for you to not reach out to them if you need to/want to/have an IC reason to. It isn't even a factor really.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 01:22:41 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 01:08:47 PM
It's worth differentiating isolating players [from the rest of the player base] and bringing players [in the same clan] together.  I suspect you know the difference but you're being disingenuous for some reason

Sir, I am never disingenuous. Imagine this game with no clans in it: It would be far more isolating. Everyone who wanted to play a desert elf would be scattered across the world with no idea who else was playing a desert elf, nor any location to check in at to see if there were tribemates about. Everyone who wanted to play a human hunter would have to cautiously test out other hunters to see if it was even possible to venture a short ways into the desert together to kill scrab. Nobles would never have aides and would have to pursue all their machinations without any minions to trust.

Clans don't isolate the playerbase. They, in fact, bring players together. Period. Some players choose to play outside of the clan structure, and thereby choose to isolate themselves. That is OK; sometimes I do it too. But that's not clans doing that, it's players doing that.

Extremely well said, especially the parts about desert elves and not being able to trust other characters.  I guess my suggestion was more that, at least in some cases, membership in a clan could limit the amount you get to interact with the rest of the player base.

Quote
Having played a leader plenty, I have never once thought to myself, OOCly, "Yeah I gotta get people in here so they can see how dynamic clans are." That's not an OOC motivator at all; I'm not on some kind of "convert all the indies" crusade. (Because then sometimes I'd have to convert myself; about a quarter of my PCs have been unclanned.) I still don't even know if that's what you meant since you didn't re-explain, you just quoted yourself. Rude :P

I think nauta said it better in the OP.  Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Here's an analogy in another attempt to re-explain... Intellectually, we know there are guitar players in the world.  But seeing, or even hearing, a rock star playing a guitar solo can do far more to motivate you to learn to play the guitar too.

Quote
her words are not endearing.

You're right.  Nauta... I am not endeared, so check yourself before you wreck yourself.

As with most things in the game, I think peace will be found not at either extreme of this debate, but in a balance between them. Clan schedules do have purpose - they provide a means to keep a clan cohesive from an activity perspective, and give clan members an opportunity to actually roleplay out the activities of their clan. They are necessary, although they shouldn't be too restrictive to the point where a player has no time to do anything but what their schedule demands or risk punishment (and punishments should also keep playability in mind.) The point of a clan schedule is never to inflict boredom on someone in a clan.

So there should be time to mingle in taverns and show off, but mingling shouldn't be prioritized ahead of the clan's actual duties, either. If you're a soldier or hunter who's never required to train, spar, or hunt/patrol and is free to sit at the taverns all day everyday, are you really playing that role, or are you just playing a bar fly? The game isn't very interesting if everyone's a bar fly. We also don't want to encourage everybody everywhere to mingle in the same place, even when they do have free time. The Gaj/Vestric are not the center of the universe in their respective cities, nor are they the focal points everyone should be trying to orbit around.

Anyway, as others have said, everyone should try and focus on ways to make their own role fun primarily, and secondarily to increase interaction and enrich the game world around themselves and their clan. If you have ideas on how to do that, try them in game, or feel free to discuss them with your clan staff!

Quote from: Delirium on October 24, 2014, 02:13:03 PMIf you act like even simple gossip is too SEKRIT to share, it turns tavern sitting into the equivalent of watching paint dry.

There's a purpose to taverns other then this?!  ???

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 24, 2014, 02:16:18 PM
Well it's true that sometimes I'll see ten people in my clan online and none in a tavern. It's not that we hate taverns but that we're used to making our own fun. Don't rely on others to entertain you if possible.

I think it's pretty reasonable to hate taverns. Hell, hating taverns might be why Allanak keeps burning them down! The thing that's hard is balancing doing clan things (which you needed to do, in a clan), with doing things in a tavern (recruitment, showing people you're alive, so on). The thing is, after a clan reaches a certain threshold of people, it doesn't necessarily need to be in a tavern. You have fun awesome people that you can do productive things with, in places more conducive to RP then a public space.

That said, guys? You can do some pretty crazy shit in public spaces. You know, like the whole of the AoD and some Kadians watching someone fuck a fruit. That was a thing. Or when Paryl would go to the Gaj, pick on some random person, and proceed to RP out how to do a proper arrest. That was also actively engaging the playerbase, while doing awesome things. These two examples are both heavily AoD related, but that doesn't mean that other clans don't have options, either.

The main thing is that trying to change a tavern all on your lonesome is doomed to fail. It takes way too much energy. But if you try, and someone meets you at least half-way? Yeah, some awesome things can happen from that.

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 02:26:53 PM
I think nauta said it better in the OP.  Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Here's an analogy in another attempt to re-explain... Intellectually, we know there are guitar players in the world.  But seeing, or even hearing, a rock star playing a guitar solo can do far more to motivate you to learn to play the guitar too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NiBESC3Wc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NiBESC3Wc)

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 02:26:53 PM
I guess my suggestion was more that, at least in some cases, membership in a clan could limit the amount you get to interact with the rest of the player base.

I don't believe that's true. Membership in a clan changes the manner in which you interact with the rest of the playerbase, sometimes; e.g. if you're playing a soldier then you have a particular role to play out which should inform (not dictate) the types of interactions you have. But TBH, playing a clanned AoD officer/aide was far and away the most interactive role I've ever had. It was non-stop, and it was with everyone in the city, from elves and gemmed and rinthis all the way up to a Red Robe. (Of course, most of that interaction happened not in taverns and not in public, but there was of course some tavern presence.)

The only time I've felt like a clan has limited the quantity of my interaction has been in situations where the clan had an iso aspect to it; e.g. tribal humans, desert elves, being stationed outside of Allanak or Tuluk. Every other city-based, non-iso clan I've been part of hasn't limited interaction at all.

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 02:26:53 PMI think nauta said it better in the OP.  Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Well, sure, OK, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. It's OK for clans to have lulls where few players want to join them. Some clans have interchangeable purposes so they don't all need to be full, and some clans aren't necessary to the game world, rather they're more like flavor roles.

I think we are both guilty of losing context, so...

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 01:08:47 PM
"One of the greatest OOC motivators to get people into clans is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be."

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 01:22:41 PM
The whole statement doesn't make sense.  <snip> you didn't re-explain, you just quoted yourself.

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 02:26:53 PM
Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 02:53:54 PM
Well, sure, OK, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

Let's assume we want more [unclanned] people in clans (this seems to be the push, and I don't contest it).  Showing [unclanned people] how fun it can be by not strictly isolating yourself from them seems like it would help toward this end.

Also, you keep using phrases like "to be honest, you don't have a lot of experience", "this whole statement doesn't make sense" and "I'm not sure what this has to do with anything".  It's browbeating fluff that isn't adding to the quality of the discussion.

[edits]

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 03:06:54 PM
Let's assume we want more people in clans

This is your assumption, not mine. I think clans are fine. Clans pretty much all operate with clan caps and generally speaking they are at or near their clan caps all the time.

And that would be why you haven't been making sense to me. You've got an assumption that I don't share.

Also, just  ::) at you saying I'm "browbeating fluff whatever." You seem to think the stuff you post is always 100% clear, but I don't think it is. Again, different opinions/assumptions.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2014, 03:13:15 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 03:06:54 PM
Let's assume we want more people in clans

This is your assumption, not mine. I think clans are fine. Clans pretty much all operate with clan caps and generally speaking they are at or near their clan caps all the time.

And that would be why you haven't been making sense to me. You've got an assumption that I don't share.

Also, just  ::) at you saying I'm "browbeating fluff whatever." You seem to think the stuff you post is always 100% clear, but I don't think it is. Again, different opinions/assumptions.

Here's what I wrote originally:

Quote
Moreover, one of the greatest OOC motivators (these are the important ones) to get people into clans (and we want to do this, right?) is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be, with interactions that extend beyond two other characters (basically what nauta said, only he said it better).

It is OK to ask for clarifications -- I welcome it and will try my best, but would you really talk to someone like that in person?

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 24, 2014, 03:19:20 PM
It is OK to ask for clarifications -- I welcome it and will try my best, but would you really talk to someone like that in person?

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk to me more about my posting style, but that is not the topic of this thread.

Let's be polite, even when (especially when?) expressing our differences in opinion.

And get this thread back on track.

Having come back after a decently long hiatus, I'm noticing a few differences. While clans aren't required to spend time in taverns and the like, if I don't see clannies out and about doing things, I'm not even going to attempt to join them. And I'm really not seeing them around these days. Perhaps they're spending much larger amounts of time in their clan compounds, which is of course perfectly fine. It just makes me far less likely to attempt to join or even utilize their services in the case of the GMH's. 

Perhaps that's just me.

My motivations for joining clans generally have nothing to do with what their clan ranks seem to be at. Usually my decision to join a certain clan is made before my character is even in-game.

Why?

Because clans fluctuate. Just because the Byn is full now doesn't mean it will be in an in-game year, when my character will be actually useful. So I suggest you join the clan you want to, or is the most IC to join. Eventually the numbers will be up, and there will be lots of fun. Trying to guess which clans are active and which aren't while in-game can be really deceptive. Generally you have to be in the clan to understand who's around and if it's teeming with life.

I literally have not seen a merchant from any GMH "out and about" in over a RL year.

It all comes down to leadership. They can force their clans to be different things. Leadership, people!

Quote from: Voular on October 24, 2014, 04:14:11 PM
I literally have not seen a merchant from any GMH "out and about" in over a RL year.

It all comes down to leadership. They can force their clans to be different things. Leadership, people!

I also haven't seen a GMH since I returned to the game, except for when I spent 5 RL days trying to find one.  This is definitely a departure from when I saw the main taverns being kind of like these merchant's offices, where they'd hang out, take orders, etc.

... peculiar.

Merchant's aren't to be seen. They are to be Wayed. This has always been the case for me save for a few exceptions.

#1 thing clan leaders should do: have fun.  #2 thing: ???

Any time I've been playing a leader character and worried about whether I'm making fun for others, I tend to drop out of my character, and that's a short road to storage.  Nothing turns me off the game more than worrying about OOC considerations when I'm trying to play.

Conversely, when I'm playing a leader or anyone solely for my own fun, I think I make 200% more fun for others simply because I'm playing more often.  Because I want to be playing, because I'm in my character's head, and because I'm having fun.

Whatever PC leaders need to do to have fun, they should be doing it so that they don't get bored and store.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.

Quote from: valeria on October 24, 2014, 06:34:27 PM
#1 thing clan leaders should do: have fun.  #2 thing: ???

Any time I've been playing a leader character and worried about whether I'm making fun for others, I tend to drop out of my character, and that's a short road to storage.  Nothing turns me off the game more than worrying about OOC considerations when I'm trying to play.

Conversely, when I'm playing a leader or anyone solely for my own fun, I think I make 200% more fun for others simply because I'm playing more often.  Because I want to be playing, because I'm in my character's head, and because I'm having fun.

Whatever PC leaders need to do to have fun, they should be doing it so that they don't get bored and store.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.

Completely agree with this sentiment.  Turning your hobby into a second job is a long walk off a short pier for a leader role....unless you're the sort of person who enjoys turning hobbies into second jobs.  In which case it isn't a second job at all. 

Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2014, 11:32:36 AM
So, on clans: where'd they all go?  

I remember when I first started playing I'd see clans celebrating victories at the Gaj, doing funny things together in the streets or the bar, and just looking publicly cool.  I don't see that at all anymore (caveat: obviously limited to my perspective). Where'd they all go?  Indeed, I think a public presence is the best recruitment route - I really wanted to join a clan back then precisely because everyone looked like they were having fun!  Now I see a lone Kadian or a lone Salarr, and they tap their temple and disappear randomly.  Or I don't see more than one or two Bynners in the Gaj all week, then all the sudden there's ten Bynners at the Stables doing something cool, apparently, but totally with no public face to it.  So either clans are empty or the plots are getting insular and they're all holed up in their compounds.  (Or this is the fallacy of false options, and I'm just never there to witness the public displays of cool!)  This includes AoD: they used to patrol and be out there in the public eye.  Now it's hard to find one to assassinate...  I get it, some clans are insular (Fale, for instance, or Oash), but others shouldn't be.

Anyway, this is a random arm. thought, not much more to say, except maybe a suggestion or two (esp. to leaders in the clan):

1. Mingle! I remember when I was in a GMH we were encouraged to go out and get drunk at the Gaj (or whatever) wearing our cloaks and looking fucking cool.  I believe it was even an order.  Mingle, clans, mingle!

2. Fuck the schedules.  (Well, kinda.)  I noticed that a lot of clan schedules encourage clannies to spend a lot of their playtime inside the clan compounds.  I get the motivation for that - it's to make sure all the players are in one spot, right? - but ... it draws players out of the interaction base.  (I remember playing a Bynner and trying to obey the schedules, which resulted in just idling in the Byn hall alone, a lot.  Then someone would log in, spar, and logout.)  Yes, I could break the rules ICly and then face the IC consequences, but maybe we could lighten up on the rules/schedules, or reconceive them a bit?  Maybe have Byn tasks that take you outside the compound, or Salarr tasks that take you outside the compounds.  Maybe this week you are supposed to strut-your-shit at the Gaj, or hang out in the market with the Salarr shops.  As to what I perceive as the motivation for such 'in-compound' schedules --- namely that they are there for playability in the sense that then all the players will be in the compound so you can play with them ---, I'm a little dubious: After all, we have the Way, and most of the indie "crews" I've joined have been able to get together without schedules just fine.  Log in, check the tavern, check the compound, send a bunch of ways...

Again, I could be totally wrong both on what's happening and my proposed cures, but I thought I'd toss it out there.  

EDITED TO ADD: Also, I don't want to ruffle any feathers of current leadership and clannies!  It's just my perspective, and maybe you are doing precisely that, or don't think it's worth doing that.  I know it is tough and you guys are great RPers...  I'm also not in either camp in the indy / clan war.  If anything, I lean more towards clans.  (Don't hit me, Fuji.)

I so remember being a Bynner and every time I would sit down in a bar and start to get into a good RP with someone it would be time to walk all the way back across the city to the compound. I don't have much time to play anymore and really couldn't handle that sort of thing now. When I play I want to play. I don't want to be held to a schedule and miss opportunities for good RP and good conversation with people that aren't in the clan I am.

Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 24, 2014, 04:21:10 PM

Quote from: Voular on October 24, 2014, 04:14:11 PM
I literally have not seen a merchant from any GMH "out and about" in over a RL year.

It all comes down to leadership. They can force their clans to be different things. Leadership, people!

I also haven't seen a GMH since I returned to the game, except for when I spent 5 RL days trying to find one.  This is definitely a departure from when I saw the main taverns being kind of like these merchant's offices, where they'd hang out, take orders, etc.

They just don't like you.

Quote from: valeria on October 24, 2014, 06:34:27 PM
#1 thing clan leaders should do: have fun.  #2 thing: ???

Any time I've been playing a leader character and worried about whether I'm making fun for others, I tend to drop out of my character, and that's a short road to storage.  Nothing turns me off the game more than worrying about OOC considerations when I'm trying to play.

Conversely, when I'm playing a leader or anyone solely for my own fun, I think I make 200% more fun for others simply because I'm playing more often.  Because I want to be playing, because I'm in my character's head, and because I'm having fun.

Whatever PC leaders need to do to have fun, they should be doing it so that they don't get bored and store.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.

I sort of disagree. You can't just ignore training for military clans because -fun-. Or you can if you are playing someone who's incompetent. Certain roles just have not-fun parts.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 24, 2014, 07:26:37 PM
Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

I think the idle chatter part is the problem.  People are so nervous about being overheard, they don't talk about anything interesting.  At least when people go to bars in pairs or more.  It makes sense that someone wouldn't necessarily talk about something interesting with a random stranger.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 24, 2014, 07:26:37 PM
Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

I guess I didn't play my Bynner long enough. Nothing spectacular happened when I had mine.

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on October 24, 2014, 08:46:44 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 24, 2014, 07:26:37 PM
Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

I guess I didn't play my Bynner long enough. Nothing spectacular happened when I had mine.

Like I said above. Clans ebb and flow. Sometimes just living long enough is all it takes to see a clan reach a peak.

I experienced some Byn drama once that turned into a serious, ham-fisted grudge that ended crazily. It was pretty intense.

Byn is awesome. It comes and goes in peaks though for sure. Get a sergeant when they're starting out, if you can, and when you can, is my advice. Always exciting.

If there's only one sergeant that you know is active, then you should also consider getting in, because a new sergeant is probably coming soon after a role call/app/promotion. It'll be especially fun when you've already gotten some time to get to know the old faces before the new sergeant comes and begins hiring like crazy.

Or you can just plan to have a new or unemployed PC around waiting for them.

Knowing stuff like that can help improve the game experience. Sadly, discussing current events isn't allowed on the GDB, but the best bet is to look at the board in the Gaj carefully (the IG board). Look at the recency of "hiring" calls. The Byn should be updating it regularly with "who the sergeants are to find." If there's one in the past few months, then that's a good sign that the clan is active.

The same can be applied to a lot of GMH.

     I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think a big problem facing clans today is that there are too many open clans. The result is a lots of clans that are leader heavy and minion light. This results is a lot of clans that seems to be constantly spinning their wheels with endless recruiting. Many clans are hard pressed to put three players online at the same time. IMO, three is the minimum magic number you need to build a clan with some traction. Over the years, there have been more and more in-game restrictions on many clans that limit who they can hire which only compounds the problems. I'm not saying these changes are bad, I'm just saying they may have some unforeseen recruiting consequences. For example, in Tuluk, you have four nobles houses, PC templars, and the Legion all recruiting the same small pool of inked, human Tuluki citizens. Allanak faces similar problems finding humans with the correct accent. So, let's look at what's working...

Quote from: Harmless on October 24, 2014, 10:40:06 PM
Byn is awesome. It comes and goes in peaks though for sure. Get a sergeant when they're starting out, if you can, and when you can, is my advice. Always exciting.

     Surprisingly, I'm in complete agreement with Harmless. I think the Byn is a very cool clan. I played in the first class of Runners when the Byn initially started, but I haven't played in them again. So, all of my opinion about the clan is from the perspective of an outsider looking in. However, the Byn seems to be the clan that gets to bend/break all the rules that confines many of the other clans. For example, the Byn can hire any race. I've seen elves, humans, half-elves, half-giants, and dwarves in the clan. It can roam the entire Known world. I've seen Byn in the Sea of Silt, in the Grey, in the mantis valley, and out in the thornlands. They can take employment from any group which exposes them to plots throughout the entire world. Many other clans are limited by tattoos, citizenship, city loyalty, or tribal territories. In fact, the Byn can even fight for Allanak in the current "war" and still roam around without many repercussions in Tuluk. From first hand experience, I can tell you that the Ironswords (also mercenaries) didn't receive such generous treatment after their participation in a war. (I know that's a stretch, but I think they got off pretty easy.) There's even a log of a Byn Sergeant disobeying a direct order from a templar and literally getting off with a spanking. In my experience, this isn't what usually happens.
     I'm not saying all of this is bad. In fact, it seems to work quite well. The Byn seem to be one of the most active and interesting clans in the game. About a year and half ago, I played in an independent group that had a feud with the Byn. One night, there were four of us online and we went out in numbers in hopes of having a little skirmish with the Byn. However, when we tracked the Byn down out on maneuvers, we discovered there were twelve PC Byn out in a group. I remember thinking, "I can't believe there are twelve of them online at the same time all together on a random Tuesday night." So, we just rode back home and avoided them.
     A lot of the same freedoms and privileges that make the Byn interesting are present in the GMHs. However, the GMHs have more racial restrictions than the Byn. Additionally and most importantly, there are three GMHs that are all open at the same time and all recruiting against each other. This results in each GMH being much smaller and at times far less active than the Byn.

     I think some changes could be made to help other clans thrive in a Byn-like fashion. Here are some ideas:

Allow Bards and members of the Levies to have multiple patrons. The result: more PCs able to interact with multiple noble houses/Templars

Close House Fale. The result: more players in other noble Houses and any noble can still throw a party

Close city elves for a while. Result: more players in races that can play in clans. Open them back up later with a documented, staff supported clan that all city elves must be a part (just like desert elves)

Close one of the tribal clans. Result: more concentrated tribal player base.

Close one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

These are just some ideas. I'm sure they won't be very popular because people like lots of choices. Think of clans as cable television. At some point there are just too many channels and it ends up just slowing you down. The next time you're about to make another Byn runner. Think about trying a new clan because you don't want to be kicking yourself when you missed out on a clan that closed such as: the Blackwing, House Kohmar, the Tar-kroh, the Red Fangs, the gith, the halflings, the mantis, the Black Moon raiders, the Ironswords, House Reynolte, House Negean, or House Uptal.

The Byn and the militia are the only currently-active military clans that allow you to do something resembling training and learning combat skills in relative safety. The thing about the Byn is that it does not require a lifesworn oath. It's convenient to be in. That's why it's so active.

Close city elves: No. Just, no. They've closed c-elf clans, for a while now. You may never get them back.

Or, go ahead, whatever. Clans, bleh. Options have been closing, problem still exists. I think, when the same strategy fails to work numerous times, it's time to look in another direction, like, how can we make this thing suck -less-, not, well, let's shut this down over here because we want to force people to choose option a. If someone wants to play in your clan, they won't roll an elf, or a breed, or whatever you don't want to hire. Want more people? Petition for a relaxation of hiring standards, don't force someone else's hand.

Quote from: MeTekillot on October 25, 2014, 01:35:02 AM
The Byn and the militia are the only currently-active military clans that allow you to do something resembling training and learning combat skills in relative safety. The thing about the Byn is that it does not require a lifesworn oath. It's convenient to be in. That's why it's so active.

The Fist schedule has been my favourite, solo or with PC's, though it was disappointing when the ban on charging dummies went in.
Oh, Rationalization. Are we talking about closing Luirs for play/ making Storms End virtual  :P

williamson, thanks for that awesome post.

You can't close House Fale! It's so... jingly and colourful!

Quote from: williamson on October 25, 2014, 01:22:04 AMAllow Bards and members of the Levies to have multiple patrons. The result: more PCs able to interact with multiple noble houses/Templars

There's not actually a rule against having multiple patrons. It's just uncommon. Changing this isn't a staff hand-waving thing, it's a looking at what PC leaders want thing.

QuoteClose House Fale. The result: more players in other noble Houses and any noble can still throw a party

Technically true, I guess? I'm resistant to this idea anyway. Unless you open a different noble house--Three is a good number to have, for conflicts between Houses.

QuoteClose city elves for a while. Result: more players in races that can play in clans. Open them back up later with a documented, staff supported clan that all city elves must be a part (just like desert elves)

I really don't like taking away an entire race just because. If people want to play elves, then that's good. Because while it may lower clan participation, it may very well heighten sneaky participation, or enhance plots. Heck, even if you just rolled up a throw-away PC and got moderately skilled, you could make a mini-plot with the AoD, giving them a criminal to chase after. Not ALL plots come from clans.

QuoteClose one of the tribal clans. Result: more concentrated tribal player base.

There's only three tribes open right now, and I'd argue it's technically more like two. Closing gypsies isn't going to mean there's more Arabet/Siek, and visa versa, because the tribes are different. If I'm playing one, I may not have an interest in playing the other. Sure, which ever clan you closed would have to make PCs elsewhere, but they could very well make clanless indies, which wouldn't help anything. I just really dislike the idea of closing things in the hopes it'll make people play more other stuff.

QuoteClose one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

Yikes. Really, it's hard enough to find GMH as it is. Closing them and having no chance of it? You're either telling high society (who wants clothes and shinies) that you're okay with screwing them over, or you're telling everyone who needs a weapon that they can be screwed. Because let's be honest, Kurac has their own Outpost, and I don't see that closing.

QuoteThese are just some ideas. I'm sure they won't be very popular because people like lots of choices. Think of clans as cable television. At some point there are just too many channels and it ends up just slowing you down.

I just don't think your suggestions will have the positive effect that you hope.

I am a fan of consolidation. But probably nobody here would like my "just get rid of playable Tuluk" ideas. So that's all I'll probably say about it.

As far as I know there's nothing preventing people from having multiple patrons or even from being in other clans.

The partisanship documentation even addresses partisanship as something much more akin to particular contracted jobs as opposed to the probationary employment it's treated as.

Staff mentioned revising some Tuluki docs down the line to encourage clans to hire employees properly and get people involved faster.

Quote from: Taven on October 25, 2014, 03:01:40 AM

Quote from: williamson on October 25, 2014, 01:22:04 AM

QuoteClose one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

Yikes. Really, it's hard enough to find GMH as it is. Closing them and having no chance of it? You're either telling high society (who wants clothes and shinies) that you're okay with screwing them over, or you're telling everyone who needs a weapon that they can be screwed. Because let's be honest, Kurac has their own Outpost, and I don't see that closing.

I agree here.  I remember seeing here that someone said that they haven't seen any of the GMH family members and it's clanies and that's true.  Closing one of them will not help, it will make it worse.

Quote from: Desertman on October 24, 2014, 02:23:47 PM
I'm not even sure why "They aren't in a tavern.", is even mentionable.

Empty taverns are a big problem in new player retention.

yeah... don't take away anything because of a "problem" I still don't really perceive. The gaj almost always has someone in it who at least knows how to point a noob towards the right persons. I don't think closing anything or retconning will help with retention and worry strongly it will worsen it if they wanted to be in a.) an eccentric noble house or b) a fashionable merchant house.

Quote from: Barsook on October 25, 2014, 07:59:17 AM

Quote from: Taven on October 25, 2014, 03:01:40 AM

Quote from: williamson on October 25, 2014, 01:22:04 AM

QuoteClose one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

Yikes. Really, it's hard enough to find GMH as it is. Closing them and having no chance of it? You're either telling high society (who wants clothes and shinies) that you're okay with screwing them over, or you're telling everyone who needs a weapon that they can be screwed. Because let's be honest, Kurac has their own Outpost, and I don't see that closing.

I agree here.  I remember seeing here that someone said that they haven't seen any of the GMH family members and it's clanies and that's true.  Closing one of them will not help, it will make it worse.

There are currently 5 merchant family members and an additional 6 GMH clan leader PCs. All of them have their own minions and play actively. I would say merchant house membership is pretty good right now, so I can only guess that you're looking in the wrong places.

Quote from: williamson on October 25, 2014, 01:22:04 AM
    a bunch of bad things that insinuate closing things is good

So.  Your solution is essentially to further limit what people can and can't play more than is already in place.

Close the second most populous race in the Known because it will direct more players to clans?  Close clans to push people towards other clans?

The problem with your logic here is that you're asserting that everyone is looking to join clans, but the selection is just too varied and spread out.  Let me line it up more accurately:  People who want to join clans will join clans, but not just because it's available.  It meshes with the character, it meshes with what you're wanting to do with it.  Closing down variety, closing down options, and trying to funnel players is actually kind of a great way to get more people who want to continue to play the game to move off and do their own thing (i.e. Indies).  For a player like me?  I -never- used to play unclanned.  I always wanted clans.  But we keep on shutting down more and more options for clans until it's the 'poppy' ones that stick around...which are, in most cases, in areas that are either a)Not applicable to my character, or b)NOT A RECIPE FOR CONTINUED ENJOYMENT OF THE GAME.

Limiting options is becoming too quick of a recourse, for everyone.  More options, more available paths, is what makes an RPG.  Stoppit.

One way to consolidate players in clans would be not so much 'close' clans but maybe not recruit for certain clans.  And by this I mean there are good players that staff recruit for sponsored leadership roles that are expected to flesh out their clans with minions.  Sometimes clans have more than one of these characters.  Rather than having active recruiters in a clan, there could maybe be one character in a clan or maybe more than that, but they wouldn't be trying to recruit minions.  It could be a single player in that clan, like a merchant house or a noble house, that character could serve as a contact to that house for the rest of the playerbase, a gatekeeper if you will.  These clans would still be open and could start recruiting at any time that staff (or that character) felt the desire.  Clans don't have to be constantly recruiting, but closing clans IMO is depressing and limiting.

Quote from: Eyeball on October 25, 2014, 12:18:05 PM
Empty taverns are a big problem in new player retention.

Edited by Yours Truly.  Not constructive.

Well, I can say that reduction of playable options has caused my interest to decrease.

Quote from: X-D on October 25, 2014, 07:08:21 PM
Well, I can say that reduction of playable options has caused my interest to decrease.

I can say that it hasn't done anything to mine.

It certainly has to mine. Also, why don't delves get any love? Wish we still have more options there. I miss the Stalkers and Red Fangs. Cities really aren't my first choice when it comes to roles.

Just gonna post for the 100th time that I would sacrifice my first child to ginka for the red fang or dune stalkers.

WHOA!  Hold on there your tribal clan closers! 

IMHO

For many of us, one of the attractions of Arm is that the world is so large and diverse. Closing clans that are not city bound will remove a major opportunity for those who enjoy the wilds and roaming free.  In my opinion the options for human and elven tribals are already very limited.  Currently the balance is such that even though the options are limited, there is still something for everyone. There are only three open human tribal clans to my knowledge at least. And two of these are in reality, one clan, the AraSeik.

I have played many Arabet and d-elves.  These are some of my most memorable roles, and I have seen the clans with filled with many players and also with fewer players. I have never played these clans because I wanted to be with a lot of other players. I played them because I wanted to play a specific role, even if that meant a lot of solo playing. Staff support has waxed and waned, so you learn to do without it.

There has been a big push to urbanize and concentrate in Arm, with many GMH and Noble houses opening, taverns closing etc. I am not opposed to this, as many or perhaps most players prefer urban settings. I think the staff are trying to increase interaction, rp and enjoyment for the folks that like city play. However let the problems of increasing interaction and player fun in the cities, stay in the cities. Do not reduce clan options in the wilds, so as to supposedly increase clan fun in the cities. All that will do is force some players to play in cities, when they would probably rather not. If you must reduce options, reduce options in the subset that is the closest to the problem; city based clans.

The real problem is not the number of options available, which is really a plus for Arm and not a negative. The real problem (s) may well be low player numbers and perhaps clan leadership.  I do not have enough information to make a definitive statement on either of these possibilities.  However I believe staff do have the information, and by all the recent and cool changes, I reckon they are doing their best to resolve the issues.

I hope I can get back and actually play soon! Until then,

Cheers!

If there is one change/limitation I'd like to see, it would be putting some kind of approval process or associated CGP cost with making a character with a tribal backround that's not Arabet, Seik or Muark.

The most fun I've had in this game has been playing an Arabetti, the tribe docs and loose structure allow more freedom to do your thang than any other clan I can think of.

I think there would be 2 benefits:
1. Get more people playing in the coded tribes, perhaps even funnel enough people to be able to open one of the other human tribes.
2. Have less tribal backround characters. I'm calling this a benefit because there *seems* to be so many that it's a little unbalanced. Instead of adding flavour, the role/idea has become bland, uninteresting and overdone.

Is the tribal character issue their lack of a coded tribe?

My issue with a lot of tribal (clanned) PCs is that they actually just want to play indie tribals plus cool tattoos and cool surname. But really just hang out in cities and act not like a Seik or Arabet.

If anything, admission into Seik/Arabet should be more restrictive. Most players imo fail to grasp the unusual mindset.

A few thoughts:

If you want to play a desert elf, you must play either a SR or a SLK. Those are your only choices. You're basically pigeon-holed such that if you play either of those more than twice in any given 12-month period, you can proudly say "been there, done that, done with it, what's next?" and know that the next batch will be same as the last batch. The only variety you can have in playing a desert elf, is in your individual character's personality. And even that is supposed to coincide with the docs.

I'm not very fond of that, as you can see by the spin I gave the above paragraph.

My solution: Open the desert elf option to NOT require being in a coded clan BUT..if you want to be in one of the two coded plans, it has to be via sponsored role. And allow the sponsored PCs to recruit low-ranking clanned minions IC. Sort of like the gavrams, who can't ever be more than that, but have the opportunity to make a mark on their tribe's history through participation in it.

Any one playing a desert elf outside of those sponsored roles and IC-recruited minions, will have only the support of the "unclanned staff." Provide a blurb in the existing documentation and create new "spawn points" that include Red Storm, Cenyr, and Blackwing for all UNclanned desert elves, and perhaps a singular meeting place in each for those unclanned desert elves, restricted by spawn choice (in other words - desert elves who spawn in Blackwing would not gain admittance to the desert elf meeting room in Cenyr, but would still have free access to the village itself, for example).

Then, have the unclanned staff work with admin to provide for the possibility that any ONE group of these unclanned desert elves could successfully create a coded clan. Maybe work up just 2-3 generic desert-elfish rooms, such as a singular yard, one communal tent, and one sparring circle, and keep them in "staff heaven" with no exits to the game world until such time as the clan becomes coded. If it never becomes coded, it's still a good exercise for new staff members to practice with.

--------------

Tribal humans: Aren't required to be in a specific tribe, so I'm not seeing any problem at all. You can be Al Seik, or Arabet, or some random tribe that isn't official. It's already that way. Maybe it'd be nice to have a communal room for unclanned generic tribals who spawn in Luir's, that's exclusive for all unclanned generic tribals who span in Luir's. Just a meeting room, not a save room. I don't know if the tent's still there, but the one that was for the Tan Muark where the tattooist was, that had a second room to the north, might be a good one for that. Add an NPC tribal guard to the first room and a "tribal Luir's spawn" flag to the PCs, and that's all you'd need.

I don't notice much of a problem with any clans based out of the south, other than the inconvenience of mismatched play times. There are plenty in each, it's just tough to catch them if you don't play when they play. This is nothing new. The availability changes around with the players. One Byn Sergeant might always be logged in from 4-8PM EST except for Sundays, and then he gets a shift change at work and now is available from noon-3 EST but now he's also available on Sundays. Then that Sergeant leads his crew off the shield wall and his replacement can only play 2 hours after midnight 5 days a week, and all day Saturday.

That's the nature of games, when you have to play with other people rather than with the computer.

So, 1 karma isn't enough for desert elves, we need to further restrict the role to special app for sponsored roles, and condemn the rest of the desert elf population to being tribeless PC wise, like city elves, which everyone bitches about and some mention closing entirely, however, everything with human tribals is just fine the way it is? Sorry, but I must be missing something here, because it seems rather punishing to me. Then again, here I must admit to having very little experience, so yeah, if there is an explanation for it, I'd certainly like to hear it so I can better understand.

I like Lizzie's idea, with the exception that I'd make the special apps be for the untribed delves. Since it'd be a much more restrictive and difficult role to play. But damn if it wouldn't be fun. Lots of opportunity for rewarding play there. Outcast delves desperately wanting to make a home, elven tests of loyalty, blah blah. Lots of goals right from the outset. If staff okay'd that, I'd put in a storage request and start writing up that app right now. I love me some delves. And I think a lot of our newer players are missing out on that experience of having the scary sand-necker pop out of cover right in front of their eyes to scare the shit out of them.

The problem with allowing tribeless d-elf PCs is that you can then come up with any sort of IC excuses as to why your d-elf PC is often seen hanging out in Tuluk or Allanak, or why they've suddenly decided to become a criminal presence in the 'rinth who gets to smuggle spice for a living. You don't have docs to live by and suddenly you can come up with any reasons to justify what you're doing and Staff can't really stop you because you can play by a set of somewhat slightly limited rules. You get to run all over the place, hang out wherever you want and just go with the flow. Suddenly you have d-elves hunting the grasslands, d-elves hanging out in Storm.

Oh no, what a nightmare

IIRC, that's why delves can no longer be unclanned. If you want to play an elf who can do whatever they want in the city, play a celf. If you want to play in a tribe, play a delf.

Just give c-elves the ability to run.

Eh, hence why it was a special app thing, folks. Staff can and do force-store folks when they behave inappropriately. Such as delves trying to live in cities and such. I do remember why it was disallowed in the first place. I'm just dissatisfied with the very few choices we currently have available. I never mentioned anything about cities in my post.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 26, 2014, 02:08:42 PM
Just give c-elves the ability to run.

+1

Wait, so the danger is that delves might act as if they were humans?!?! The horror!

Seriously, none of that behavior seems like anything a human could not do. I don't see what the big deal is.

Quote from: Patuk on October 26, 2014, 02:20:40 PM
Wait, so the danger is that delves might act as if they were humans?!?! The horror!

Seriously, none of that behavior seems like anything a human could not do. I don't see what the big deal is.

Humans are supposed to be all over the place, emotion-wise, physical-trait-wise, geographically, etc..

D-elves are supposed to be, well, desert dwellers who are ... Ehhhhhhhh, nevermind.

I'm all for c-elves and d-elves becoming one, for sure, but I didn't want to put that in because we've been saying that forever now and it's not really the purpose of this thread.

And yes, MeTekillot, what a nightmare, since this is how d-elves were when they first introduced the race and I remember my d-elf being a big part of the Tuluki rebellion. Lots of d-elves were constantly just hanging out in the Sanctuary and they were just a much more powerful version of c-elves.

You guys would be the first to cry the minute a d-elf runs the 'rinth or is super buddy with a Salarri Agent and does the job of three hunters in one swoop.

Delves run better than humans. Agreed. With mounts, which are ubiquitous, the playing field becomes equal.

A delf isn't ever going to do the job of three competent hunters more capably than a human is because humans can do so just fine. If a delf is going to outhunt three humans, the correct question for Salarr to ask is how they could be better employed.

And yes, agreed, they'd be much, much more powerful celves. All the more reason to buff them.

I guess my point is nobody would cry about that if c-elves had tangible benefits that d-elves didn't get.

Maybe don't make them all the same with running. But would it really be such a bad idea to give all c-elves maxed city sneak/hide? Or maxed steal. (you know, that thing they're known for).

Quote from: Patuk on October 26, 2014, 02:36:49 PM
Delves run better than humans. Agreed. With mounts, which are ubiquitous, the playing field becomes equal.

Dude, a d-elf can regenerate their stamina in seconds, if not minutes, if they are resting at the right spots, while a mount takes freakin' forever. It's not even close to equal.

All it takes is for your usual "My papa raised me to judge a man by their deeds and not their blood" elf fucker players and you suddenly have d-elves doing all kind of weird shit that people would bitch about for much less. I've seen it all.

D-elves are balanced out by the fact that they are majorly restricted to their own little area. I don't think that Staff wants to deal with all the headaches it would bring if you could suddenly set them free and loose (and I also think it's a huge part of why they are being holed in their own zone/clans).

Even human tribals (at least clanned ones) get in trouble if they start sticking to the city for too long.

Stuff.

Quote from: Fujikoma on October 26, 2014, 01:10:46 PM
So, 1 karma isn't enough for desert elves, we need to further restrict the role to special app for sponsored roles, and condemn the rest of the desert elf population to being tribeless PC wise, like city elves, which everyone bitches about and some mention closing entirely, however, everything with human tribals is just fine the way it is? Sorry, but I must be missing something here, because it seems rather punishing to me. Then again, here I must admit to having very little experience, so yeah, if there is an explanation for it, I'd certainly like to hear it so I can better understand.

No, I'm saying OPEN UP desert elves to more than just the two coded tribes. This gives people MORE of an opportunity to vary their roleplay and not feel "stuck" with only two options for desert elves. The coded tribes would still be playable, by special app only. The UNcoded tribes would be unrestricted, and unsupported by anything other than unclanned staff and *possibly* a new chargen option for spawn points.

As it stands, I won't even attempt to play another desert elf again, until and unless there is some other option besides sun runner and soh lanah kah. I know there are at least a few other players who feel the same way.

Also my suggestion wasn't to have unclanned desert elves be tribeless. Of course they'd have tribes. That would be part of their background, subject to the usual staff approval for any normal application with restrictions (dwarven focus, anyone?). It just wouldn't be coded, like SR and SOH are. The tribes would be virtual. Hell you could even use some of the existing currently unsupported desert elf docs like Dune Stalkers, Blackwing, etc. etc. Tell applicants their characters must be from one of those uncoded tribes. You could even have some of the DOZENS of children of the Red Fangs, whose mothers weren't home the day their camp was destroyed, show up - again, with an uncoded unsupported virtual tribe that has some smattering of documentation for players to use in their backgrounds.

Single best change that could be made to delves short of opening a different clan: let SLK roam free short of hanging out in and around the cities.

Reminder that this is your SLK role

(http://i.imgur.com/xDGXYfg.jpg)

The less stinking elves, the better. Desert elves are totally uninteresting. Staff have made all the right calls with them lately.

i dont like this role so nobody else should be allowed to enjoy this role

Quote from: HavokBlue on October 26, 2014, 06:12:29 PM
Single best change that could be made to delves short of opening a different clan: let SLK roam free short of hanging out in and around the cities.

Staying in the swamp is not all that bad, although I agree the rules could be relaxed a bit. In some contexts the SR can already roam pretty much as they please, so if your change was made, what would you suggest to differentiate the two tribes? Or maybe that is too IC?

Or should this topic spin into it's own thread, as it is a bit specific rather than just clans in general?

Obviously we can't discuss the particulars of SLK docs on the GDB but you and I both know the context in which they can leave the Tablelands is very specific, and this context hardly involves roaming considering the very purpose driven nature of it.

Staying in the swamp is really bad when you have four or five desert elves under your belt because beyond interacting with different personalities, playing a new elf really doesn't offer anything different. I can't speak for the Sun Runners, and maybe some SLK players like being glorified park rangers, but I feel like it's ridiculous that even a city elf effectively has access to more of the desert than a desert elf.

Quote from: HavokBlue on October 27, 2014, 06:17:43 AM
Obviously we can't discuss the particulars of SLK docs on the GDB but you and I both know the context in which they can leave the Tablelands is very specific, and this context hardly involves roaming considering the very purpose driven nature of it.

Staying in the swamp is really bad when you have four or five desert elves under your belt because beyond interacting with different personalities, playing a new elf really doesn't offer anything different. I can't speak for the Sun Runners, and maybe some SLK players like being glorified park rangers, but I feel like it's ridiculous that even a city elf effectively has access to more of the desert than a desert elf.

You are right, SLK are restricted.  My roaming comment referred to SR, who also have some albeit fewer restrictions.  If the SLK did have unlimited roaming, what could be added to make them different from the SR? Or to keep them from becoming the new Red Fangs?

I am interested because I think that something needs to happen to bring the Tablelands more into the game, yet still allows d elves to be d elves and not hang about in towns and taverns for days on end. Anyway..this is now a full blown derail and I will stop.  Sorry.

Most desert elves wouldn'teenter a city without tribemates at their back, because cities are supposed to feel suspiciousand entrapping to nmost of them.

Quote from: Is Friday on October 24, 2014, 12:20:44 PM
People in clans don't owe indies or other clans anything.

Not to underail here, but could those of you who hold this view articulate the reasons behind it?  Totally not trying to be a douche or whatever, it just strikes me as counterintuitive at this stage in my arm career.  Here are some rough reasons why it looks prima facie to be counterintuitive:

1. For me at least, the more people I -can- interact with, the more fun I -can- have.  If a clan (or plotline) limits that, I would think that I would have less fun.  Indeed, there have been times where being in a clan has been a lot less fun, either because nobody was around or because the people who were around were just doing insular plots.  This was especially true during the "recruit" phase and even more especially true during offpeak.  (I have, to be fair to myself a little, lived long enough to make it to Corporal and almost Sergeant in a certain clan.)  And mutatis mutandis with indies, although indies, I would think, wouldn't hold the above view, for indies have to interact with other indies and clans.

2. New players should be at least in part taken into account.  Just one example: Using the boards, and having a public presence, tells new players that there are these neat things called clans, that they are doing neat things, and that they seem fun.

3. For me, RP is at least in part taking into consideration what the other person is doing, respecting their "idea", and rolling with it; it isn't just solipsism, be this on the individual or group level.  (That's super abstract, but it is in part a reply to the "do what is fun for you first" thesis that was tossed out, which I suspect underwrites the "we don't owe you anything" aphorism.)

Anyway, it seems to me that, while it is true I should be having fun, part of me having fun is someone else having fun too, so we do owe other people something.  Dunno, that's my reasoning for the alternative... 

If I'm running a clan, I would much rather the minions and other leaders be working toward advancing their own org or personal goals within the boundaries of their role.

If you want to create plots that mean something, that requires two opposing wills. If your clan is worried more about having someone to interact with at the expense of forwarding the agenda for their master... plots stand still.

Players shouldn't be as concerned with interaction with randoms as they should be concerned with creating meaningful interaction based on relationships. If I'm a hunter and I just sit in a tavern when I'm not hunting, then I'm usually not doing anything for the development of plots.

The tavern sitting mentality is many times the antithesis toward plots. People show up and expect shit to happen. No. Go out into the rest of the game world and do shit. Then every once in a while crash a bar revelling in your organization's glory.

I don't know, I've had a lot of fun in taverns. Of course when I'm playing a wicked supervillain, the last place I want to spend time is with all those assholes I'm trying to kill, who also, for some strange reason, want me dead. All your pleasant conversation and silly jokes just fill me with the desire to shove a knife in your gut and twist, then.

Quote from: Harmless on October 24, 2014, 10:40:06 PM
Byn is awesome. It comes and goes in peaks though for sure. Get a sergeant when they're starting out, if you can, and when you can, is my advice. Always exciting.

If there's only one sergeant that you know is active, then you should also consider getting in, because a new sergeant is probably coming soon after a role call/app/promotion. It'll be especially fun when you've already gotten some time to get to know the old faces before the new sergeant comes and begins hiring like crazy.

Or you can just plan to have a new or unemployed PC around waiting for them.

Knowing stuff like that can help improve the game experience. Sadly, discussing current events isn't allowed on the GDB, but the best bet is to look at the board in the Gaj carefully (the IG board). Look at the recency of "hiring" calls. The Byn should be updating it regularly with "who the sergeants are to find." If there's one in the past few months, then that's a good sign that the clan is active.

The same can be applied to a lot of GMH.

And... booya (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48293.msg851575.html#new).

I want to take a moment to be jealous of whoever gets the new byn sarge role.

I wouldn't. They are a braver soul than I.

 I think efforts to force the Byn into the north are going to continue to fail. Because you'll never have enough Bynner-type Tuluki's to put into the unit. And shuffling the southern crew to the north is ICly silly.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 29, 2014, 08:08:22 PM
I think efforts to force the Byn into the north are going to continue to fail.

Man it's tempting to say "Challenge accepted."

I think the people who still post about Tuluk not having players don't play in Tuluk.

Quote from: HavokBlue on October 29, 2014, 09:21:13 PM
I think the people who still post about Tuluk not having players don't play in Tuluk.

I haven't seen a single player in Tuluk since the last time I was in Tuluk.

Quote from: HavokBlue on October 29, 2014, 09:21:13 PM
I think the people who still post about Tuluk not having players don't play in Tuluk.

Once again HavokBlue is correct.

Quote from: Is Friday on October 27, 2014, 03:07:25 PM
Players shouldn't be as concerned with interaction with randoms as they should be concerned with creating meaningful interaction based on relationships. If I'm a hunter and I just sit in a tavern when I'm not hunting, then I'm usually not doing anything for the development of plots.

The tavern sitting mentality is many times the antithesis toward plots. People show up and expect shit to happen. No. Go out into the rest of the game world and do shit. Then every once in a while crash a bar revelling in your organization's glory.

Tavern sitting is how I've recruited probably 90% of new clannies when I'm in a clan that can recruit, so I disagree with the mentality that tavern-sitting is not doing anything.  You need people in your clan, don't you?

Tavern sitting state of mind != Going to the tavern to recruit or do something active.

My post was stating that tavern sitting should hopefully be an occasion, not regular behavior.

I don't know what you mean by tavern sitting, then.  Going to the tavern to recruit, hang out with people, spread rumors, and otherwise be a cool character is pretty much the only reason I go to a tavern.  And I usually see people in taverns doing one of the above.  Unless you meant something like, I'm skipping this thing I'm supposed to be doing with my clan to sit in a tavern?

Quote from: valeria on October 30, 2014, 06:34:28 PM
I don't know what you mean by tavern sitting, then.  Going to the tavern to recruit, hang out with people, spread rumors, and otherwise be a cool character is pretty much the only reason I go to a tavern.  And I usually see people in taverns doing one of the above.  Unless you meant something like, I'm skipping this thing I'm supposed to be doing with my clan to sit in a tavern?

I view sitting in taverns to be a pretty essential thing for most characters to do once in a while.. It's a very human thing to gather with others and drink/socialize.  It's also healthy for the game so newbies or characters without any friends/contacts yet can meet other PCs, recruit, etc.  I view the problem to be people who go there alone, so instead of having some lively conversation they end sitting with strangers and either being guarded or having nothing to talk about...  I've always found going to taverns with friends, and chat publicly, instead of in privately to add more life to that kind of environment.  This lets people jump into the conversation, or if they really are that bored they can ease drop I guess...  Obviously you're not going to go talk about your secret assassination plots or something, but talking about how so-and-so beat someone in sparring practice is hardly a city-state security secret.

Wait...there's a swamp?

Find Out In

(http://www.tradereadingorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Old-Roots-of-the-Swamp-Thing-Cover.jpg)

Speaking as both a player and one of the staff who is in charge of the tribals (including d-elves), I say that d-elves are some of the most fun characters in-game to play -IF- (and this is a big if) the clans have some interesting folks who play regularly.  Having the population in the tribes (or even the other d-elf tribe) makes for some good interactions, as well as the ability to do those "RPT" style events where you do leave your comfort zone / the Tablelands.

I will also say that there are some changes / new stuff on the horizon for tribals, both human and elf, that goes beyond clothing choices that I've already announced.  Stay tuned!

FREEDOM TO MAKE D-ELF TRIBAL FAMILY ROLES!

kididing

Quote from: seidhr on October 30, 2014, 10:46:33 PM
I will also say that there are some changes / new stuff on the horizon for tribals, both human and elf, that goes beyond clothing choices that I've already announced.  Stay tuned!

OMG hope so! D-elves have so much potential!  :-*

hell, I'd be happy with delf clan shuffling time or...even better, brand shiny new ones...oooooohhhhh.

You could solve delf isolation but ensure they don't become celves on roids by banning the bastards from cities altogether.

The catch would be that they'd not get insta crimcoded or whatever. Leave it to the PC soldiers to flush them out. This'd let them enter cities just fine, but would give delf PC's an actual reason to stay the hell away from both cities unless someone important can have the militia back off.

And don't give me the 'but Patuk how do I tell delves and celves apart' excuse. Any properly played delf is going to stand out massively while inside a city.

Quote from: Patuk on October 31, 2014, 03:42:28 AM
You could solve delf isolation but ensure they don't become celves on roids by banning the bastards from cities altogether.

The catch would be that they'd not get insta crimcoded or whatever. Leave it to the PC soldiers to flush them out. This'd let them enter cities just fine, but would give delf PC's an actual reason to stay the hell away from both cities unless someone important can have the militia back off.

And don't give me the 'but Patuk how do I tell delves and celves apart' excuse. Any properly played delf is going to stand out massively while inside a city.

Eh.  I've no idea if this is still current.  But city elves and desert elves do maintain relations with each other.  With no more c-elf tribes, that kinda becomes hard to run, but historically, several city elf tribes have 'trade pacts' with desert elf tribes.  It gave them unique access to some rare commodities.

I'd prefer to keep that intact.  Elsewise...well...city elf tribes just don't get the boons they are supposed to.  Not that they're getting them now anyway, but would just rather not make an arrangement where maintaining that becomes impossible.

To be honest...desert elves are cool and all, but I've never particularly thought of them as something causing as much concern as I've read about recently.  Maybe I just haven't fought enough Red Fangs XD.

I sat in a tavern and then a whirlwind of red, one-eyed force happened and an hour later I was in the Arm of the Dragon.

Tavern-sitting is tops.

On d-elves: who would you rather be? The angry, tiny tribe of xenophobes allowed to stay within the north-western Tablelands, or the free-roaming adventuresome drunkards everyone loves to party with?

I'll tell you which clan sounds like I'm going to have more fun and interaction in.

Quote from: Zoan on October 31, 2014, 04:17:39 AM
or the free-roaming adventuresome drunkards everyone loves to party with?

I'll tell you which clan sounds like I'm going to have more fun and interaction in.

We are talking about d elves Zoan, not about folks from Queensland.

As long as you are talking about Queenslanders as the xenophobes I approve this.

it's funny because australians are xenophobes

If I usually find myself getting along oddly well with Australians, just right off the bat, as a non-Australian, should I be concerned?

Na it's because we are fairly relaxed. Havok is talking utter nonsense.

We're like the Sun Runners - we will be amicable with you until you start trying to bring your FOREIGN BULLSHIT ONTO OUR LAND, then we'll try to kill you.

Well, not me. But a good portion of us are (however this isn't the thread for this). :P