So, On Clans

[RogueGunslinger]

My motivations for joining clans generally have nothing to do with what their clan ranks seem to be at. Usually my decision to join a certain clan is made before my character is even in-game.

Why?

Because clans fluctuate. Just because the Byn is full now doesn't mean it will be in an in-game year, when my character will be actually useful. So I suggest you join the clan you want to, or is the most IC to join. Eventually the numbers will be up, and there will be lots of fun. Trying to guess which clans are active and which aren't while in-game can be really deceptive. Generally you have to be in the clan to understand who's around and if it's teeming with life.

[Voular]

I literally have not seen a merchant from any GMH "out and about" in over a RL year.

It all comes down to leadership. They can force their clans to be different things. Leadership, people!

[wizturbo]

I literally have not seen a merchant from any GMH "out and about" in over a RL year.

It all comes down to leadership. They can force their clans to be different things. Leadership, people!

I also haven't seen a GMH since I returned to the game, except for when I spent 5 RL days trying to find one.  This is definitely a departure from when I saw the main taverns being kind of like these merchant's offices, where they'd hang out, take orders, etc.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

... peculiar.

[RogueGunslinger]

Merchant's aren't to be seen. They are to be Wayed. This has always been the case for me save for a few exceptions.

[valeria]

#1 thing clan leaders should do: have fun.  #2 thing:

Any time I've been playing a leader character and worried about whether I'm making fun for others, I tend to drop out of my character, and that's a short road to storage.  Nothing turns me off the game more than worrying about OOC considerations when I'm trying to play.

Conversely, when I'm playing a leader or anyone solely for my own fun, I think I make 200% more fun for others simply because I'm playing more often.  Because I want to be playing, because I'm in my character's head, and because I'm having fun.

Whatever PC leaders need to do to have fun, they should be doing it so that they don't get bored and store.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.

[LauraMars]

#1 thing clan leaders should do: have fun.  #2 thing:

Any time I've been playing a leader character and worried about whether I'm making fun for others, I tend to drop out of my character, and that's a short road to storage.  Nothing turns me off the game more than worrying about OOC considerations when I'm trying to play.

Conversely, when I'm playing a leader or anyone solely for my own fun, I think I make 200% more fun for others simply because I'm playing more often.  Because I want to be playing, because I'm in my character's head, and because I'm having fun.

Whatever PC leaders need to do to have fun, they should be doing it so that they don't get bored and store.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.

Completely agree with this sentiment.  Turning your hobby into a second job is a long walk off a short pier for a leader role....unless you're the sort of person who enjoys turning hobbies into second jobs.  In which case it isn't a second job at all. 

[slvrmoontiger]

So, on clans: where'd they all go?  

I remember when I first started playing I'd see clans celebrating victories at the Gaj, doing funny things together in the streets or the bar, and just looking publicly cool.  I don't see that at all anymore (caveat: obviously limited to my perspective). Where'd they all go?  Indeed, I think a public presence is the best recruitment route - I really wanted to join a clan back then precisely because everyone looked like they were having fun!  Now I see a lone Kadian or a lone Salarr, and they tap their temple and disappear randomly.  Or I don't see more than one or two Bynners in the Gaj all week, then all the sudden there's ten Bynners at the Stables doing something cool, apparently, but totally with no public face to it.  So either clans are empty or the plots are getting insular and they're all holed up in their compounds.  (Or this is the fallacy of false options, and I'm just never there to witness the public displays of cool!)  This includes AoD: they used to patrol and be out there in the public eye.  Now it's hard to find one to assassinate...  I get it, some clans are insular (Fale, for instance, or Oash), but others shouldn't be.

Anyway, this is a random arm. thought, not much more to say, except maybe a suggestion or two (esp. to leaders in the clan):

1. Mingle! I remember when I was in a GMH we were encouraged to go out and get drunk at the Gaj (or whatever) wearing our cloaks and looking fucking cool.  I believe it was even an order.  Mingle, clans, mingle!

2. Fuck the schedules.  (Well, kinda.)  I noticed that a lot of clan schedules encourage clannies to spend a lot of their playtime inside the clan compounds.  I get the motivation for that - it's to make sure all the players are in one spot, right? - but ... it draws players out of the interaction base.  (I remember playing a Bynner and trying to obey the schedules, which resulted in just idling in the Byn hall alone, a lot.  Then someone would log in, spar, and logout.)  Yes, I could break the rules ICly and then face the IC consequences, but maybe we could lighten up on the rules/schedules, or reconceive them a bit?  Maybe have Byn tasks that take you outside the compound, or Salarr tasks that take you outside the compounds.  Maybe this week you are supposed to strut-your-shit at the Gaj, or hang out in the market with the Salarr shops.  As to what I perceive as the motivation for such 'in-compound' schedules --- namely that they are there for playability in the sense that then all the players will be in the compound so you can play with them ---, I'm a little dubious: After all, we have the Way, and most of the indie "crews" I've joined have been able to get together without schedules just fine.  Log in, check the tavern, check the compound, send a bunch of ways...

Again, I could be totally wrong both on what's happening and my proposed cures, but I thought I'd toss it out there.  

EDITED TO ADD: Also, I don't want to ruffle any feathers of current leadership and clannies!  It's just my perspective, and maybe you are doing precisely that, or don't think it's worth doing that.  I know it is tough and you guys are great RPers...  I'm also not in either camp in the indy / clan war.  If anything, I lean more towards clans.  (Don't hit me, Fuji.)

I so remember being a Bynner and every time I would sit down in a bar and start to get into a good RP with someone it would be time to walk all the way back across the city to the compound. I don't have much time to play anymore and really couldn't handle that sort of thing now. When I play I want to play. I don't want to be held to a schedule and miss opportunities for good RP and good conversation with people that aren't in the clan I am.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

[KankWhisperer]

I literally have not seen a merchant from any GMH "out and about" in over a RL year.

It all comes down to leadership. They can force their clans to be different things. Leadership, people!

I also haven't seen a GMH since I returned to the game, except for when I spent 5 RL days trying to find one.  This is definitely a departure from when I saw the main taverns being kind of like these merchant's offices, where they'd hang out, take orders, etc.

They just don't like you.

#1 thing clan leaders should do: have fun.  #2 thing:

Any time I've been playing a leader character and worried about whether I'm making fun for others, I tend to drop out of my character, and that's a short road to storage.  Nothing turns me off the game more than worrying about OOC considerations when I'm trying to play.

Conversely, when I'm playing a leader or anyone solely for my own fun, I think I make 200% more fun for others simply because I'm playing more often.  Because I want to be playing, because I'm in my character's head, and because I'm having fun.

Whatever PC leaders need to do to have fun, they should be doing it so that they don't get bored and store.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.

I sort of disagree. You can't just ignore training for military clans because -fun-. Or you can if you are playing someone who's incompetent. Certain roles just have not-fun parts.

[wizturbo]

Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

I think the idle chatter part is the problem.  People are so nervous about being overheard, they don't talk about anything interesting.  At least when people go to bars in pairs or more.  It makes sense that someone wouldn't necessarily talk about something interesting with a random stranger.

[slvrmoontiger]

Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

I guess I didn't play my Bynner long enough. Nothing spectacular happened when I had mine.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah but what about all the crazy shit that goes on INSIDE the compound? I'd much rather see that than hear idle chatter that encompasses a lot of tavern roleplay.

Byn drama gets intense, yo. Or at least it did when they hired every fuckup and 'rinther who could scrape the 'sids together. Lovable fuckups, all of them.

I guess I didn't play my Bynner long enough. Nothing spectacular happened when I had mine.

Like I said above. Clans ebb and flow. Sometimes just living long enough is all it takes to see a clan reach a peak.

[Fujikoma]

I experienced some Byn drama once that turned into a serious, ham-fisted grudge that ended crazily. It was pretty intense.

[Harmless]

Byn is awesome. It comes and goes in peaks though for sure. Get a sergeant when they're starting out, if you can, and when you can, is my advice. Always exciting.

If there's only one sergeant that you know is active, then you should also consider getting in, because a new sergeant is probably coming soon after a role call/app/promotion. It'll be especially fun when you've already gotten some time to get to know the old faces before the new sergeant comes and begins hiring like crazy.

Or you can just plan to have a new or unemployed PC around waiting for them.

Knowing stuff like that can help improve the game experience. Sadly, discussing current events isn't allowed on the GDB, but the best bet is to look at the board in the Gaj carefully (the IG board). Look at the recency of "hiring" calls. The Byn should be updating it regularly with "who the sergeants are to find." If there's one in the past few months, then that's a good sign that the clan is active.

The same can be applied to a lot of GMH.

[williamson]

     I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think a big problem facing clans today is that there are too many open clans. The result is a lots of clans that are leader heavy and minion light. This results is a lot of clans that seems to be constantly spinning their wheels with endless recruiting. Many clans are hard pressed to put three players online at the same time. IMO, three is the minimum magic number you need to build a clan with some traction. Over the years, there have been more and more in-game restrictions on many clans that limit who they can hire which only compounds the problems. I'm not saying these changes are bad, I'm just saying they may have some unforeseen recruiting consequences. For example, in Tuluk, you have four nobles houses, PC templars, and the Legion all recruiting the same small pool of inked, human Tuluki citizens. Allanak faces similar problems finding humans with the correct accent. So, let's look at what's working...

Byn is awesome. It comes and goes in peaks though for sure. Get a sergeant when they're starting out, if you can, and when you can, is my advice. Always exciting.

     Surprisingly, I'm in complete agreement with Harmless. I think the Byn is a very cool clan. I played in the first class of Runners when the Byn initially started, but I haven't played in them again. So, all of my opinion about the clan is from the perspective of an outsider looking in. However, the Byn seems to be the clan that gets to bend/break all the rules that confines many of the other clans. For example, the Byn can hire any race. I've seen elves, humans, half-elves, half-giants, and dwarves in the clan. It can roam the entire Known world. I've seen Byn in the Sea of Silt, in the Grey, in the mantis valley, and out in the thornlands. They can take employment from any group which exposes them to plots throughout the entire world. Many other clans are limited by tattoos, citizenship, city loyalty, or tribal territories. In fact, the Byn can even fight for Allanak in the current "war" and still roam around without many repercussions in Tuluk. From first hand experience, I can tell you that the Ironswords (also mercenaries) didn't receive such generous treatment after their participation in a war. (I know that's a stretch, but I think they got off pretty easy.) There's even a log of a Byn Sergeant disobeying a direct order from a templar and literally getting off with a spanking. In my experience, this isn't what usually happens.
     I'm not saying all of this is bad. In fact, it seems to work quite well. The Byn seem to be one of the most active and interesting clans in the game. About a year and half ago, I played in an independent group that had a feud with the Byn. One night, there were four of us online and we went out in numbers in hopes of having a little skirmish with the Byn. However, when we tracked the Byn down out on maneuvers, we discovered there were twelve PC Byn out in a group. I remember thinking, "I can't believe there are twelve of them online at the same time all together on a random Tuesday night." So, we just rode back home and avoided them.
     A lot of the same freedoms and privileges that make the Byn interesting are present in the GMHs. However, the GMHs have more racial restrictions than the Byn. Additionally and most importantly, there are three GMHs that are all open at the same time and all recruiting against each other. This results in each GMH being much smaller and at times far less active than the Byn.

     I think some changes could be made to help other clans thrive in a Byn-like fashion. Here are some ideas:

Allow Bards and members of the Levies to have multiple patrons. The result: more PCs able to interact with multiple noble houses/Templars

Close House Fale. The result: more players in other noble Houses and any noble can still throw a party

Close city elves for a while. Result: more players in races that can play in clans. Open them back up later with a documented, staff supported clan that all city elves must be a part (just like desert elves)

Close one of the tribal clans. Result: more concentrated tribal player base.

Close one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

These are just some ideas. I'm sure they won't be very popular because people like lots of choices. Think of clans as cable television. At some point there are just too many channels and it ends up just slowing you down. The next time you're about to make another Byn runner. Think about trying a new clan because you don't want to be kicking yourself when you missed out on a clan that closed such as: the Blackwing, House Kohmar, the Tar-kroh, the Red Fangs, the gith, the halflings, the mantis, the Black Moon raiders, the Ironswords, House Reynolte, House Negean, or House Uptal.

[MeTekillot]

The Byn and the militia are the only currently-active military clans that allow you to do something resembling training and learning combat skills in relative safety. The thing about the Byn is that it does not require a lifesworn oath. It's convenient to be in. That's why it's so active.

[Fujikoma]

Close city elves: No. Just, no. They've closed c-elf clans, for a while now. You may never get them back.

Or, go ahead, whatever. Clans, bleh. Options have been closing, problem still exists. I think, when the same strategy fails to work numerous times, it's time to look in another direction, like, how can we make this thing suck -less-, not, well, let's shut this down over here because we want to force people to choose option a. If someone wants to play in your clan, they won't roll an elf, or a breed, or whatever you don't want to hire. Want more people? Petition for a relaxation of hiring standards, don't force someone else's hand.

[solera]

The Byn and the militia are the only currently-active military clans that allow you to do something resembling training and learning combat skills in relative safety. The thing about the Byn is that it does not require a lifesworn oath. It's convenient to be in. That's why it's so active.

The Fist schedule has been my favourite, solo or with PC's, though it was disappointing when the ban on charging dummies went in.
Oh, Rationalization. Are we talking about closing Luirs for play/ making Storms End virtual 

[CodeMaster]

williamson, thanks for that awesome post.

[BleakOne]

You can't close House Fale! It's so... jingly and colourful!

[Taven]

Allow Bards and members of the Levies to have multiple patrons. The result: more PCs able to interact with multiple noble houses/Templars

There's not actually a rule against having multiple patrons. It's just uncommon. Changing this isn't a staff hand-waving thing, it's a looking at what PC leaders want thing.

Close House Fale. The result: more players in other noble Houses and any noble can still throw a party

Technically true, I guess? I'm resistant to this idea anyway. Unless you open a different noble house--Three is a good number to have, for conflicts between Houses.

Close city elves for a while. Result: more players in races that can play in clans. Open them back up later with a documented, staff supported clan that all city elves must be a part (just like desert elves)

I really don't like taking away an entire race just because. If people want to play elves, then that's good. Because while it may lower clan participation, it may very well heighten sneaky participation, or enhance plots. Heck, even if you just rolled up a throw-away PC and got moderately skilled, you could make a mini-plot with the AoD, giving them a criminal to chase after. Not ALL plots come from clans.

Close one of the tribal clans. Result: more concentrated tribal player base.

There's only three tribes open right now, and I'd argue it's technically more like two. Closing gypsies isn't going to mean there's more Arabet/Siek, and visa versa, because the tribes are different. If I'm playing one, I may not have an interest in playing the other. Sure, which ever clan you closed would have to make PCs elsewhere, but they could very well make clanless indies, which wouldn't help anything. I just really dislike the idea of closing things in the hopes it'll make people play more other stuff.

Close one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

Yikes. Really, it's hard enough to find GMH as it is. Closing them and having no chance of it? You're either telling high society (who wants clothes and shinies) that you're okay with screwing them over, or you're telling everyone who needs a weapon that they can be screwed. Because let's be honest, Kurac has their own Outpost, and I don't see that closing.

These are just some ideas. I'm sure they won't be very popular because people like lots of choices. Think of clans as cable television. At some point there are just too many channels and it ends up just slowing you down.

I just don't think your suggestions will have the positive effect that you hope.

[RogueGunslinger]

I am a fan of consolidation. But probably nobody here would like my "just get rid of playable Tuluk" ideas. So that's all I'll probably say about it.

[HavokBlue]

As far as I know there's nothing preventing people from having multiple patrons or even from being in other clans.

The partisanship documentation even addresses partisanship as something much more akin to particular contracted jobs as opposed to the probationary employment it's treated as.

Staff mentioned revising some Tuluki docs down the line to encourage clans to hire employees properly and get people involved faster.

[Barsook]

Close one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

Yikes. Really, it's hard enough to find GMH as it is. Closing them and having no chance of it? You're either telling high society (who wants clothes and shinies) that you're okay with screwing them over, or you're telling everyone who needs a weapon that they can be screwed. Because let's be honest, Kurac has their own Outpost, and I don't see that closing.

I agree here.  I remember seeing here that someone said that they haven't seen any of the GMH family members and it's clanies and that's true.  Closing one of them will not help, it will make it worse.