So, On Clans

[Eyeball]

I'm not even sure why "They aren't in a tavern.", is even mentionable.

Empty taverns are a big problem in new player retention.

[Harmless]

yeah... don't take away anything because of a "problem" I still don't really perceive. The gaj almost always has someone in it who at least knows how to point a noob towards the right persons. I don't think closing anything or retconning will help with retention and worry strongly it will worsen it if they wanted to be in a.) an eccentric noble house or b) a fashionable merchant house.

[Italis]

Close one of the GMHs for a year. Result: more concentrated GMH player base. After a year, open it back up and business and recruitment will be booming.

Yikes. Really, it's hard enough to find GMH as it is. Closing them and having no chance of it? You're either telling high society (who wants clothes and shinies) that you're okay with screwing them over, or you're telling everyone who needs a weapon that they can be screwed. Because let's be honest, Kurac has their own Outpost, and I don't see that closing.

I agree here.  I remember seeing here that someone said that they haven't seen any of the GMH family members and it's clanies and that's true.  Closing one of them will not help, it will make it worse.

There are currently 5 merchant family members and an additional 6 GMH clan leader PCs. All of them have their own minions and play actively. I would say merchant house membership is pretty good right now, so I can only guess that you're looking in the wrong places.

[Armaddict]

    a bunch of bad things that insinuate closing things is good

So.  Your solution is essentially to further limit what people can and can't play more than is already in place.

Close the second most populous race in the Known because it will direct more players to clans?  Close clans to push people towards other clans?

The problem with your logic here is that you're asserting that everyone is looking to join clans, but the selection is just too varied and spread out.  Let me line it up more accurately:  People who want to join clans will join clans, but not just because it's available.  It meshes with the character, it meshes with what you're wanting to do with it.  Closing down variety, closing down options, and trying to funnel players is actually kind of a great way to get more people who want to continue to play the game to move off and do their own thing (i.e. Indies).  For a player like me?  I -never- used to play unclanned.  I always wanted clans.  But we keep on shutting down more and more options for clans until it's the 'poppy' ones that stick around...which are, in most cases, in areas that are either a)Not applicable to my character, or b)NOT A RECIPE FOR CONTINUED ENJOYMENT OF THE GAME.

Limiting options is becoming too quick of a recourse, for everyone.  More options, more available paths, is what makes an RPG.  Stoppit.

[Molten Heart]

One way to consolidate players in clans would be not so much 'close' clans but maybe not recruit for certain clans.  And by this I mean there are good players that staff recruit for sponsored leadership roles that are expected to flesh out their clans with minions.  Sometimes clans have more than one of these characters.  Rather than having active recruiters in a clan, there could maybe be one character in a clan or maybe more than that, but they wouldn't be trying to recruit minions.  It could be a single player in that clan, like a merchant house or a noble house, that character could serve as a contact to that house for the rest of the playerbase, a gatekeeper if you will.  These clans would still be open and could start recruiting at any time that staff (or that character) felt the desire.  Clans don't have to be constantly recruiting, but closing clans IMO is depressing and limiting.

[whitt]

Empty taverns are a big problem in new player retention.

Edited by Yours Truly.  Not constructive.

[X-D]

Well, I can say that reduction of playable options has caused my interest to decrease.

[Voular]

Well, I can say that reduction of playable options has caused my interest to decrease.

I can say that it hasn't done anything to mine.

[th3kaiser]

It certainly has to mine. Also, why don't delves get any love? Wish we still have more options there. I miss the Stalkers and Red Fangs. Cities really aren't my first choice when it comes to roles.

[HavokBlue]

Just gonna post for the 100th time that I would sacrifice my first child to ginka for the red fang or dune stalkers.

[Norcal]

WHOA!  Hold on there your tribal clan closers! 

IMHO

For many of us, one of the attractions of Arm is that the world is so large and diverse. Closing clans that are not city bound will remove a major opportunity for those who enjoy the wilds and roaming free.  In my opinion the options for human and elven tribals are already very limited.  Currently the balance is such that even though the options are limited, there is still something for everyone. There are only three open human tribal clans to my knowledge at least. And two of these are in reality, one clan, the AraSeik.

I have played many Arabet and d-elves.  These are some of my most memorable roles, and I have seen the clans with filled with many players and also with fewer players. I have never played these clans because I wanted to be with a lot of other players. I played them because I wanted to play a specific role, even if that meant a lot of solo playing. Staff support has waxed and waned, so you learn to do without it.

There has been a big push to urbanize and concentrate in Arm, with many GMH and Noble houses opening, taverns closing etc. I am not opposed to this, as many or perhaps most players prefer urban settings. I think the staff are trying to increase interaction, rp and enjoyment for the folks that like city play. However let the problems of increasing interaction and player fun in the cities, stay in the cities. Do not reduce clan options in the wilds, so as to supposedly increase clan fun in the cities. All that will do is force some players to play in cities, when they would probably rather not. If you must reduce options, reduce options in the subset that is the closest to the problem; city based clans.

The real problem is not the number of options available, which is really a plus for Arm and not a negative. The real problem (s) may well be low player numbers and perhaps clan leadership.  I do not have enough information to make a definitive statement on either of these possibilities.  However I believe staff do have the information, and by all the recent and cool changes, I reckon they are doing their best to resolve the issues.

I hope I can get back and actually play soon! Until then,

Cheers!

[roughneck]

If there is one change/limitation I'd like to see, it would be putting some kind of approval process or associated CGP cost with making a character with a tribal backround that's not Arabet, Seik or Muark.

The most fun I've had in this game has been playing an Arabetti, the tribe docs and loose structure allow more freedom to do your thang than any other clan I can think of.

I think there would be 2 benefits:
1. Get more people playing in the coded tribes, perhaps even funnel enough people to be able to open one of the other human tribes.
2. Have less tribal backround characters. I'm calling this a benefit because there *seems* to be so many that it's a little unbalanced. Instead of adding flavour, the role/idea has become bland, uninteresting and overdone.

[Molten Heart]

Is the tribal character issue their lack of a coded tribe?

[Is Friday]

My issue with a lot of tribal (clanned) PCs is that they actually just want to play indie tribals plus cool tattoos and cool surname. But really just hang out in cities and act not like a Seik or Arabet.

If anything, admission into Seik/Arabet should be more restrictive. Most players imo fail to grasp the unusual mindset.

[Lizzie]

A few thoughts:

If you want to play a desert elf, you must play either a SR or a SLK. Those are your only choices. You're basically pigeon-holed such that if you play either of those more than twice in any given 12-month period, you can proudly say "been there, done that, done with it, what's next?" and know that the next batch will be same as the last batch. The only variety you can have in playing a desert elf, is in your individual character's personality. And even that is supposed to coincide with the docs.

I'm not very fond of that, as you can see by the spin I gave the above paragraph.

My solution: Open the desert elf option to NOT require being in a coded clan BUT..if you want to be in one of the two coded plans, it has to be via sponsored role. And allow the sponsored PCs to recruit low-ranking clanned minions IC. Sort of like the gavrams, who can't ever be more than that, but have the opportunity to make a mark on their tribe's history through participation in it.

Any one playing a desert elf outside of those sponsored roles and IC-recruited minions, will have only the support of the "unclanned staff." Provide a blurb in the existing documentation and create new "spawn points" that include Red Storm, Cenyr, and Blackwing for all UNclanned desert elves, and perhaps a singular meeting place in each for those unclanned desert elves, restricted by spawn choice (in other words - desert elves who spawn in Blackwing would not gain admittance to the desert elf meeting room in Cenyr, but would still have free access to the village itself, for example).

Then, have the unclanned staff work with admin to provide for the possibility that any ONE group of these unclanned desert elves could successfully create a coded clan. Maybe work up just 2-3 generic desert-elfish rooms, such as a singular yard, one communal tent, and one sparring circle, and keep them in "staff heaven" with no exits to the game world until such time as the clan becomes coded. If it never becomes coded, it's still a good exercise for new staff members to practice with.

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Tribal humans: Aren't required to be in a specific tribe, so I'm not seeing any problem at all. You can be Al Seik, or Arabet, or some random tribe that isn't official. It's already that way. Maybe it'd be nice to have a communal room for unclanned generic tribals who spawn in Luir's, that's exclusive for all unclanned generic tribals who span in Luir's. Just a meeting room, not a save room. I don't know if the tent's still there, but the one that was for the Tan Muark where the tattooist was, that had a second room to the north, might be a good one for that. Add an NPC tribal guard to the first room and a "tribal Luir's spawn" flag to the PCs, and that's all you'd need.

I don't notice much of a problem with any clans based out of the south, other than the inconvenience of mismatched play times. There are plenty in each, it's just tough to catch them if you don't play when they play. This is nothing new. The availability changes around with the players. One Byn Sergeant might always be logged in from 4-8PM EST except for Sundays, and then he gets a shift change at work and now is available from noon-3 EST but now he's also available on Sundays. Then that Sergeant leads his crew off the shield wall and his replacement can only play 2 hours after midnight 5 days a week, and all day Saturday.

That's the nature of games, when you have to play with other people rather than with the computer.

[Fujikoma]

So, 1 karma isn't enough for desert elves, we need to further restrict the role to special app for sponsored roles, and condemn the rest of the desert elf population to being tribeless PC wise, like city elves, which everyone bitches about and some mention closing entirely, however, everything with human tribals is just fine the way it is? Sorry, but I must be missing something here, because it seems rather punishing to me. Then again, here I must admit to having very little experience, so yeah, if there is an explanation for it, I'd certainly like to hear it so I can better understand.

[th3kaiser]

I like Lizzie's idea, with the exception that I'd make the special apps be for the untribed delves. Since it'd be a much more restrictive and difficult role to play. But damn if it wouldn't be fun. Lots of opportunity for rewarding play there. Outcast delves desperately wanting to make a home, elven tests of loyalty, blah blah. Lots of goals right from the outset. If staff okay'd that, I'd put in a storage request and start writing up that app right now. I love me some delves. And I think a lot of our newer players are missing out on that experience of having the scary sand-necker pop out of cover right in front of their eyes to scare the shit out of them.

[Malken]

The problem with allowing tribeless d-elf PCs is that you can then come up with any sort of IC excuses as to why your d-elf PC is often seen hanging out in Tuluk or Allanak, or why they've suddenly decided to become a criminal presence in the 'rinth who gets to smuggle spice for a living. You don't have docs to live by and suddenly you can come up with any reasons to justify what you're doing and Staff can't really stop you because you can play by a set of somewhat slightly limited rules. You get to run all over the place, hang out wherever you want and just go with the flow. Suddenly you have d-elves hunting the grasslands, d-elves hanging out in Storm.

[MeTekillot]

Oh no, what a nightmare

[Is Friday]

IIRC, that's why delves can no longer be unclanned. If you want to play an elf who can do whatever they want in the city, play a celf. If you want to play in a tribe, play a delf.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just give c-elves the ability to run.

[th3kaiser]

Eh, hence why it was a special app thing, folks. Staff can and do force-store folks when they behave inappropriately. Such as delves trying to live in cities and such. I do remember why it was disallowed in the first place. I'm just dissatisfied with the very few choices we currently have available. I never mentioned anything about cities in my post.

[whitt]

Just give c-elves the ability to run.

+1

[Patuk]

Wait, so the danger is that delves might act as if they were humans?!?! The horror!

Seriously, none of that behavior seems like anything a human could not do. I don't see what the big deal is.

[Malken]

Wait, so the danger is that delves might act as if they were humans?!?! The horror!

Seriously, none of that behavior seems like anything a human could not do. I don't see what the big deal is.

Humans are supposed to be all over the place, emotion-wise, physical-trait-wise, geographically, etc..

D-elves are supposed to be, well, desert dwellers who are ... Ehhhhhhhh, nevermind.

I'm all for c-elves and d-elves becoming one, for sure, but I didn't want to put that in because we've been saying that forever now and it's not really the purpose of this thread.

And yes, MeTekillot, what a nightmare, since this is how d-elves were when they first introduced the race and I remember my d-elf being a big part of the Tuluki rebellion. Lots of d-elves were constantly just hanging out in the Sanctuary and they were just a much more powerful version of c-elves.

You guys would be the first to cry the minute a d-elf runs the 'rinth or is super buddy with a Salarri Agent and does the job of three hunters in one swoop.