So, On Clans

[CodeMaster]

3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.

This is not always as appropriate to do as you think it is. For the most part, in game rumors should be spread PC to PC rather than by rumor board. City boards are supposed to represent things everyone in the entire city would know; is everyone in the city really going to know about the Byn's latest scrab kill-fest? Yeah, no.

I think your suggestions are really well-intended but, to be honest, you don't have a lot of experience with the game. You're attempting to give advice to leaders with a lot more experience in the game, in clans, and in leadership than you currently have. That's probably not going to be received so well.

this person is reiterating a good suggestion, and we all benefit from reminders on how the game can be made more engaging from each other, no need to attack their "experience with the game"

[Gimfalisette]

It's worth differentiating isolating players [from the rest of the player base] and bringing players [in the same clan] together.  I suspect you know the difference but you're being disingenuous for some reason

Sir, I am never disingenuous. Imagine this game with no clans in it: It would be far more isolating. Everyone who wanted to play a desert elf would be scattered across the world with no idea who else was playing a desert elf, nor any location to check in at to see if there were tribemates about. Everyone who wanted to play a human hunter would have to cautiously test out other hunters to see if it was even possible to venture a short ways into the desert together to kill scrab. Nobles would never have aides and would have to pursue all their machinations without any minions to trust.

Clans don't isolate the playerbase. They, in fact, bring players together. Period. Some players choose to play outside of the clan structure, and thereby choose to isolate themselves. That is OK; sometimes I do it too. But that's not clans doing that, it's players doing that.

Rude.  You mean this line, right? "One of the greatest OOC motivators to get people into clans is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be."  Meet me halfway, at least... what doesn't make sense?

The whole statement doesn't make sense. Having played a leader plenty, I have never once thought to myself, OOCly, "Yeah I gotta get people in here so they can see how dynamic clans are." That's not an OOC motivator at all; I'm not on some kind of "convert all the indies" crusade. (Because then sometimes I'd have to convert myself; about a quarter of my PCs have been unclanned.) I still don't even know if that's what you meant since you didn't re-explain, you just quoted yourself. Rude

this person is reiterating a good suggestion, and we all benefit from reminders on how the game can be made more engaging from each other, no need to attack their "experience with the game"

You think it's a good suggestion, I think it's not a good suggestion, and I explained why. Guess what, one of the first things I ever got corrected on in the game by staff was using rumor boards too much and for the wrong purpose. I'm not "attacking" her experience, I'm saying she doesn't have much, and that from the point of view of players who actually do have quite a bit more experience, her words are not endearing.

[Reiloth]

lol @ Mae Konviwedu's perfect song rumors.

[Gimfalisette]

lol @ Mae Konviwedu's perfect song rumors.

SHUT UP

lololololololol

[Delirium]

I don't think there's anything wrong with putting up a rumor board post in the Gaj about a bunch of bloody T'zai Byn tromping in and telling tales of the harrowing crazy contract they just survived. As long as you leave the details to be found out in person, it at least shows that something has been going on and gives people a hook to go "So, how about that Byn contract, huh? Hear anything about it?"

There's a difference between posting too much information and... well... not posting anything at all.

This is also turning into a discussion worthy of its own thread, so I'm going to split it off RAT.

edit: and, split.

[Delirium]

I'd also like to say that I don't see anything wrong with a new player offering their perspective.

Sometimes there is a lot of value in looking at things with a fresh pair of eyes. Veterans might start losing sight of the desert for all the sand, because they're simply used to things being the way they are. New player insight is valuable and shouldn't be immediately discounted.

[Is Friday]

lol @ Mae Konviwedu's perfect song rumors.

SHUT UP

lololololololol

That's like, rumor board noob move #3, followed by "assassin seeks work" and "out of town wanderer seeks the legacy of his destroyed tribe but will work for Byn".

[BadSkeelz]

If newbies feel like they have new ideas to add to leadership (and believe me, I've seen it in action a lot), I'd urge them not to be shy about stepping up for leadership roles. While I can't personally vouch for sponsored roles like GMH Merchants, I can tell you that there are plenty of leadership roles that can be obtained relatively easily by relatively new characters. Sergeants and corporals across all the combat clans specifically come to mind. The only basic requirements for these roles are longevity and a modicum of competence. They're good introductions for seeing what clans can do, what it takes to run them, and what you can do to keep them fun.

[nauta]

I'd also like to say that I don't see anything wrong with a new player offering their perspective.

Sometimes there is a lot of value in looking at things with a fresh pair of eyes. Veterans might start losing sight of the desert for all the sand, because they're simply used to things being the way they are. New player insight is valuable and shouldn't be immediately discounted.

Yeah, that.  I didn't mean it to be advice, and I threw it out there to hear the points from the other side too, so that's fine, except the "fuck you" comment.  That was just dumb.

As a new player, I found clan life to be a bit isolating and indy life to be a bit isolating, and thought the suggestions (just things I've seen in the past really that made sense to me and which I don't see as much any more, although they still happen from time to time) would be / were / are (to me at least) a good way to make both lives less isolating (especially for off-peakers).  It's about finding a happy medium between secret clan-only plots that involve a few players and massive spamtalk at the Gaj / arena ...  I felt things were leaning more towards the former than the latter in recent months... Maybe?  

[wizturbo]

I actually view this as less of a clan problem, and more of a "why should I be in a tavern, again?" problem.

Tavern RP is generally boring, and isn't often a great source of news like it has been in the past.  I think there are IC ways to fix that, and maybe in the future I'll be the change

[Rahnevyn]

Yeah, that.  I didn't mean it to be advice, and I threw it out there to hear the points from the other side too, so that's fine, except the "fuck you" comment.  That was just dumb.

It was just dumb, and on that note, folks, please don't do this. I moderated a few posts up this thread.

I think this is a good thread, please play nice so it can continue.

[Delirium]

I actually view this as less of a clan problem, and more of a "why should I be in a tavern, again?" problem.

Tavern RP is generally boring, and isn't often a great source of news like it has been in the past.  I think there are IC ways to fix that, and maybe in the future I'll be the change

I do feel like the attitude has gotten far too coy about simple information exchange. Most of the shit that happens in taverns should be the stuff of everyday gossip and easily shared, it's not like it's a game-breaking, earth-shattering secret that Amos got in a fight with Malik or that Lady Dimplebottom is rumored to have a half-breed lover or that the T'zai Byn killed a bunch of spiders and managed not to die.

Share some stories, gossip with each other, start some shit, don't just sit around like lumps or jaw about the weather and make awkward passes at that cute PC next to you, and if someone's trying to talk to you, refusing to share gossip because it's "valuable" is just silly as heck.

If you act like even simple gossip is too SEKRIT to share, it turns tavern sitting into the equivalent of watching paint dry.

Yes, some PCs are anti social and if you're playing an anti social PC its tough to be the change, but the rest of you? Get to it.

[KankWhisperer]

Well it's true that sometimes I'll see ten people in my clan online and none in a tavern. It's not that we hate taverns but that we're used to making our own fun. Don't rely on others to entertain you if possible.

[Desertman]

I'm not even sure why "They aren't in a tavern.", is even mentionable.

Zalanthas is a world where everyone has an instant free cellphone programmed into their skulls.

It also acceptable (much to my chagrin, but I won't go into that) to contact people you have never met before just by knowing their name.

Them, "not being in a tavern", isn't any reason for you to not reach out to them if you need to/want to/have an IC reason to. It isn't even a factor really.

[CodeMaster]

It's worth differentiating isolating players [from the rest of the player base] and bringing players [in the same clan] together.  I suspect you know the difference but you're being disingenuous for some reason

Sir, I am never disingenuous. Imagine this game with no clans in it: It would be far more isolating. Everyone who wanted to play a desert elf would be scattered across the world with no idea who else was playing a desert elf, nor any location to check in at to see if there were tribemates about. Everyone who wanted to play a human hunter would have to cautiously test out other hunters to see if it was even possible to venture a short ways into the desert together to kill scrab. Nobles would never have aides and would have to pursue all their machinations without any minions to trust.

Clans don't isolate the playerbase. They, in fact, bring players together. Period. Some players choose to play outside of the clan structure, and thereby choose to isolate themselves. That is OK; sometimes I do it too. But that's not clans doing that, it's players doing that.

Extremely well said, especially the parts about desert elves and not being able to trust other characters.  I guess my suggestion was more that, at least in some cases, membership in a clan could limit the amount you get to interact with the rest of the player base.

Having played a leader plenty, I have never once thought to myself, OOCly, "Yeah I gotta get people in here so they can see how dynamic clans are." That's not an OOC motivator at all; I'm not on some kind of "convert all the indies" crusade. (Because then sometimes I'd have to convert myself; about a quarter of my PCs have been unclanned.) I still don't even know if that's what you meant since you didn't re-explain, you just quoted yourself. Rude

I think nauta said it better in the OP.  Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Here's an analogy in another attempt to re-explain... Intellectually, we know there are guitar players in the world.  But seeing, or even hearing, a rock star playing a guitar solo can do far more to motivate you to learn to play the guitar too.

her words are not endearing.

You're right.  Nauta... I am not endeared, so check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[Rahnevyn]

As with most things in the game, I think peace will be found not at either extreme of this debate, but in a balance between them. Clan schedules do have purpose - they provide a means to keep a clan cohesive from an activity perspective, and give clan members an opportunity to actually roleplay out the activities of their clan. They are necessary, although they shouldn't be too restrictive to the point where a player has no time to do anything but what their schedule demands or risk punishment (and punishments should also keep playability in mind.) The point of a clan schedule is never to inflict boredom on someone in a clan.

So there should be time to mingle in taverns and show off, but mingling shouldn't be prioritized ahead of the clan's actual duties, either. If you're a soldier or hunter who's never required to train, spar, or hunt/patrol and is free to sit at the taverns all day everyday, are you really playing that role, or are you just playing a bar fly? The game isn't very interesting if everyone's a bar fly. We also don't want to encourage everybody everywhere to mingle in the same place, even when they do have free time. The Gaj/Vestric are not the center of the universe in their respective cities, nor are they the focal points everyone should be trying to orbit around.

Anyway, as others have said, everyone should try and focus on ways to make their own role fun primarily, and secondarily to increase interaction and enrich the game world around themselves and their clan. If you have ideas on how to do that, try them in game, or feel free to discuss them with your clan staff!

[Taven]

If you act like even simple gossip is too SEKRIT to share, it turns tavern sitting into the equivalent of watching paint dry.

There's a purpose to taverns other then this?! 

Well it's true that sometimes I'll see ten people in my clan online and none in a tavern. It's not that we hate taverns but that we're used to making our own fun. Don't rely on others to entertain you if possible.

I think it's pretty reasonable to hate taverns. Hell, hating taverns might be why Allanak keeps burning them down! The thing that's hard is balancing doing clan things (which you needed to do, in a clan), with doing things in a tavern (recruitment, showing people you're alive, so on). The thing is, after a clan reaches a certain threshold of people, it doesn't necessarily need to be in a tavern. You have fun awesome people that you can do productive things with, in places more conducive to RP then a public space.

That said, guys? You can do some pretty crazy shit in public spaces. You know, like the whole of the AoD and some Kadians watching someone fuck a fruit. That was a thing. Or when Paryl would go to the Gaj, pick on some random person, and proceed to RP out how to do a proper arrest. That was also actively engaging the playerbase, while doing awesome things. These two examples are both heavily AoD related, but that doesn't mean that other clans don't have options, either.

The main thing is that trying to change a tavern all on your lonesome is doomed to fail. It takes way too much energy. But if you try, and someone meets you at least half-way? Yeah, some awesome things can happen from that.

[CodeMaster]

I think nauta said it better in the OP.  Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Here's an analogy in another attempt to re-explain... Intellectually, we know there are guitar players in the world.  But seeing, or even hearing, a rock star playing a guitar solo can do far more to motivate you to learn to play the guitar too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NiBESC3Wc

[Gimfalisette]

I guess my suggestion was more that, at least in some cases, membership in a clan could limit the amount you get to interact with the rest of the player base.

I don't believe that's true. Membership in a clan changes the manner in which you interact with the rest of the playerbase, sometimes; e.g. if you're playing a soldier then you have a particular role to play out which should inform (not dictate) the types of interactions you have. But TBH, playing a clanned AoD officer/aide was far and away the most interactive role I've ever had. It was non-stop, and it was with everyone in the city, from elves and gemmed and rinthis all the way up to a Red Robe. (Of course, most of that interaction happened not in taverns and not in public, but there was of course some tavern presence.)

The only time I've felt like a clan has limited the quantity of my interaction has been in situations where the clan had an iso aspect to it; e.g. tribal humans, desert elves, being stationed outside of Allanak or Tuluk. Every other city-based, non-iso clan I've been part of hasn't limited interaction at all.

I think nauta said it better in the OP.  Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Well, sure, OK, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. It's OK for clans to have lulls where few players want to join them. Some clans have interchangeable purposes so they don't all need to be full, and some clans aren't necessary to the game world, rather they're more like flavor roles.

[CodeMaster]

I think we are both guilty of losing context, so...

"One of the greatest OOC motivators to get people into clans is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be."

The whole statement doesn't make sense.  <snip> you didn't re-explain, you just quoted yourself.

Sometimes you'll see a clan that seems like a fun place to be, and you will say to yourself "Gee, that looks like fun.  I want to join."  But if the clan looks inactive, or you don't even see the members of the clan at all, you won't experience this the OOC motivation to join up with them.

Well, sure, OK, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

Let's assume we want more [unclanned] people in clans (this seems to be the push, and I don't contest it).  Showing [unclanned people] how fun it can be by not strictly isolating yourself from them seems like it would help toward this end.

Also, you keep using phrases like "to be honest, you don't have a lot of experience", "this whole statement doesn't make sense" and "I'm not sure what this has to do with anything".  It's browbeating fluff that isn't adding to the quality of the discussion.

[edits]

[Gimfalisette]

Let's assume we want more people in clans

This is your assumption, not mine. I think clans are fine. Clans pretty much all operate with clan caps and generally speaking they are at or near their clan caps all the time.

And that would be why you haven't been making sense to me. You've got an assumption that I don't share.

Also, just  at you saying I'm "browbeating fluff whatever." You seem to think the stuff you post is always 100% clear, but I don't think it is. Again, different opinions/assumptions.

[CodeMaster]

Let's assume we want more people in clans

This is your assumption, not mine. I think clans are fine. Clans pretty much all operate with clan caps and generally speaking they are at or near their clan caps all the time.

And that would be why you haven't been making sense to me. You've got an assumption that I don't share.

Also, just  at you saying I'm "browbeating fluff whatever." You seem to think the stuff you post is always 100% clear, but I don't think it is. Again, different opinions/assumptions.

Here's what I wrote originally:

Moreover, one of the greatest OOC motivators (these are the important ones) to get people into clans (and we want to do this, right?) is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be, with interactions that extend beyond two other characters (basically what nauta said, only he said it better).

It is OK to ask for clarifications -- I welcome it and will try my best, but would you really talk to someone like that in person?

[Gimfalisette]

It is OK to ask for clarifications -- I welcome it and will try my best, but would you really talk to someone like that in person?

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk to me more about my posting style, but that is not the topic of this thread.

[Delirium]

Let's be polite, even when (especially when?) expressing our differences in opinion.

And get this thread back on track.

[th3kaiser]

Having come back after a decently long hiatus, I'm noticing a few differences. While clans aren't required to spend time in taverns and the like, if I don't see clannies out and about doing things, I'm not even going to attempt to join them. And I'm really not seeing them around these days. Perhaps they're spending much larger amounts of time in their clan compounds, which is of course perfectly fine. It just makes me far less likely to attempt to join or even utilize their services in the case of the GMH's. 

Perhaps that's just me.