So, On Clans

[nauta]

So, on clans: where'd they all go?  

I remember when I first started playing I'd see clans celebrating victories at the Gaj, doing funny things together in the streets or the bar, and just looking publicly cool.  I don't see that at all anymore (caveat: obviously limited to my perspective). Where'd they all go?  Indeed, I think a public presence is the best recruitment route - I really wanted to join a clan back then precisely because everyone looked like they were having fun!  Now I see a lone Kadian or a lone Salarr, and they tap their temple and disappear randomly.  Or I don't see more than one or two Bynners in the Gaj all week, then all the sudden there's ten Bynners at the Stables doing something cool, apparently, but totally with no public face to it.  So either clans are empty or the plots are getting insular and they're all holed up in their compounds.  (Or this is the fallacy of false options, and I'm just never there to witness the public displays of cool!)  This includes AoD: they used to patrol and be out there in the public eye.  Now it's hard to find one to assassinate...  I get it, some clans are insular (Fale, for instance, or Oash), but others shouldn't be.

Anyway, this is a random arm. thought, not much more to say, except maybe a suggestion or two (esp. to leaders in the clan):

1. Mingle! I remember when I was in a GMH we were encouraged to go out and get drunk at the Gaj (or whatever) wearing our cloaks and looking fucking cool.  I believe it was even an order.  Mingle, clans, mingle!

2. Fuck the schedules.  (Well, kinda.)  I noticed that a lot of clan schedules encourage clannies to spend a lot of their playtime inside the clan compounds.  I get the motivation for that - it's to make sure all the players are in one spot, right? - but ... it draws players out of the interaction base.  (I remember playing a Bynner and trying to obey the schedules, which resulted in just idling in the Byn hall alone, a lot.  Then someone would log in, spar, and logout.)  Yes, I could break the rules ICly and then face the IC consequences, but maybe we could lighten up on the rules/schedules, or reconceive them a bit?  Maybe have Byn tasks that take you outside the compound, or Salarr tasks that take you outside the compounds.  Maybe this week you are supposed to strut-your-shit at the Gaj, or hang out in the market with the Salarr shops.  As to what I perceive as the motivation for such 'in-compound' schedules --- namely that they are there for playability in the sense that then all the players will be in the compound so you can play with them ---, I'm a little dubious: After all, we have the Way, and most of the indie "crews" I've joined have been able to get together without schedules just fine.  Log in, check the tavern, check the compound, send a bunch of ways...

Again, I could be totally wrong both on what's happening and my proposed cures, but I thought I'd toss it out there.  

EDITED TO ADD: Also, I don't want to ruffle any feathers of current leadership and clannies!  It's just my perspective, and maybe you are doing precisely that, or don't think it's worth doing that.  I know it is tough and you guys are great RPers...  I'm also not in either camp in the indy / clan war.  If anything, I lean more towards clans.  (Don't hit me, Fuji.)

[Desertman]

I recommend working your way up through the ranks of a clan, taking over a leadership role, and being the change you want to see.

The best clan leaders are generally the ones who have had complaints exactly like yours and then make it a goal to do something about it. 

[Is Friday]

tl;dr

Be the change.

Got 'em.

[Molten Heart]

I agree with you nautu.  Those are all good things for clan members to do. It's hard to know where clan people are, I hope they aren't all hiding out in their clan halls (maybe they are all hunting/getting water? ;-) ).  Maybe they'd be more inclined to hang out publicly if there were slides (stolen gypsy water slide technology?) they could use to quickly transport them to a social center.  For merchant house employees, I suspect some don't hang out publicly just because it's a long walk to the tavern.

[Delirium]

Sweating, the roly-poly Kadian merchant says, in southern-accented sirihish:
     "I wish they'd move the bars closer to the compounds."

[Malken]

Or maybe they don't have 10 hours a day to play anymore and when they actually get to log in, they do clan-related stuff within their clan and take care of what needs to be taken care of.

[Is Friday]

People in clans don't owe indies or other clans anything. If they don't want to hang out in taverns, literally the most boring of RP imo, they don't have to. Most meaningful rp I've had has been in private areas.

[Inks]

Is Friday means mudsex, of course.

[Gimfalisette]

Clans go up and down, they are more and then less visible, they ebb and flow. It's not a constant. When the Byn is the Clan of the Moment, then there will be 87 Bynners hanging out at the Gaj all the time and everyone in the playerbase says "OMFG WHY SO MANY BYN." Then a leader stores or dies, and the Byn drops off, and suddenly it's "OMFG WHY SO MANY AOD CANT A ELF GET A BREAK."

GMH clans also might not even be in the same city as you at any given moment; they travel. Yet another reason why you don't see them all the time.

Clan schedules aren't the reason why you don't see clan members, and I could make really long case for why clan schedules are necessary and good (from my perspective as a veteran leader), but I can't really be arsed to do that at the moment.

Also I have to say that I agree that players in clans don't owe you anything if you've chosen not to join their clan, for whatever reason. Clans are a little tribal like that, and that's 100% IC.

[Malken]

I see it the other way around, if I see too many clan people hanging out in the taverns all the time, I'm going to assume that leadership in the clan at the moment is kinda non-existent or sucks.

Like if I see Legion or Militia PCs constantly sitting at the bar on "watch", it doesn't really make me want to play in that clan.

Of course, there's always that one guy who plays Arm 15 hours a day, so you can't really judge the clan by him, but if the rest of the clan people are never seen, then I'm assuming that they are often up to something so that clan must be busy/fun to be in.

[CodeMaster]

I think nautu has a point... and as usual the truth probably lies somewhere in between the two extremes being expressed.

Clans should be doing their own thing, developing their own plot strains in such a way that brings that clan to life ...

But player isolation isn't good for the game.  We know this already - it's driven changes like starting newbies in one of the big centers of civilization, and the (contentious) removal of the sorcerer class, a role which completely isolated players by design.

Moreover, one of the greatest OOC motivators (these are the important ones) to get people into clans (and we want to do this, right?) is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be, with interactions that extend beyond two other characters (basically what nauta said, only he said it better).

[BadSkeelz]

Moderated for not being constructive. Love, Rahnevyn.

[CodeMaster]

For merchant house employees, I suspect some don't hang out publicly just because it's a long walk to the tavern.

Maybe there should be some kind of a taxi system for the GMH members.  A wagon that sits on the end of the Merchant's Road that you can enter, 'say Gaj', and it will drop you off there.  Or a few different wagons on staggered schedules that just move back and forth between the compounds and the different taverns.

The wagon interior itself could serve as a kind of impromptu meeting place for the merchants and their employees.

[Molten Heart]

It's good for clans to be seen doing things.  If they're going to be exclusive and isolated a clan should occasionally be seen being "isolated" to some degree.  So the guys at the bar (or whomever sees them) can say "Gee... I wanna be cool and be in Clan X one day." or "Bah... Clan X... They don't associate with anyone, they think they are better than everybody.  What a bunch of pretentious pricks!" Networking outside one's clan makes for more interaction outside of one's clan which can instigate conflict, intrigue, corruption, betrayal, murder, etc.

[Adhira]

And I just made that road shorter 

[Molten Heart]

Moderated for not being constructive. Love, Rahnevyn.

[BadSkeelz]

Quite a bit shorter. Though back in the days where you'd find poor merchant newbies dying of hunger halfway between their compounds and Meleth's circle, I do remember musing about setting up a taxi service.

I wonder if a giant has enough stamina to subdue someone and sprint-carry them from one side of town to the other...

[Molten Heart]

And I just made that road shorter  

I noticed this and it took me a while to figure this out.  My spam walking is forever changed.

Thank you, btw.  :-)

[Gimfalisette]

But player isolation isn't good for the game.  We know this already - it's driven changes like starting newbies in one of the big centers of civilization, and the (contentious) removal of the sorcerer class, a role which completely isolated players by design.

Clans don't isolate players. They in fact do the opposite; they bring players together.

Also I have no idea what you mean about one of the OOC motivators being to show players that clans are dynamic places to be. That...doesn't make any sense at all.

[Malken]

And I just made that road shorter 

Make it... Shorterer!

[CodeMaster]

Using a black leather whip as traffic control, the muscular, sunburnt human shouts, in sirihish:
   "Clear the road!"

[5 seconds later]

An erdlu-driven chariot has arrived from the east.
An erdlu-driven chariot leaves west.

Your hat gets blown off.

[nauta]

Wanted to add a third suggestion:

3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.
 

[Gimfalisette]

3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.

This is not always as appropriate to do as you think it is. For the most part, in game rumors should be spread PC to PC rather than by rumor board. City boards are supposed to represent things everyone in the entire city would know; is everyone in the city really going to know about the Byn's latest scrab kill-fest? Yeah, no.

I think your suggestions are really well-intended but, to be honest, you don't have a lot of experience with the game. You're attempting to give advice to leaders with a lot more experience in the game, in clans, and in leadership than you currently have. That's probably not going to be received so well.

[BadSkeelz]

Wanted to add a third suggestion:

3. Use the IG boards to publicize your feats!  I remember early on (before joining a clan) reading something about what the Byn did and thinking: Oh, neat.  Pretty simple, and I don't see this very much any more.
 

That's pretty frequently done, at least for those clans that "Accomplish" things. Typically the combat ones, or the hunting arms of the Merchant Houses. Though even the actual merchants are quick to advertise their big events on the boards. Tip: if you see an event being hosted or sponsored by a clan, read that as code for "This clan is setting stuff up and gets to have behind-the-scenes fun."

I suspect it'd be even more common if working with the board wasn't so onerous, but there you go.

[CodeMaster]

But player isolation isn't good for the game.  We know this already - it's driven changes like starting newbies in one of the big centers of civilization, and the (contentious) removal of the sorcerer class, a role which completely isolated players by design.

Clans don't isolate players. They in fact do the opposite; they bring players together.

It's worth differentiating isolating players [from the rest of the player base] and bringing players [in the same clan] together.  I suspect you know the difference but you're being disingenuous for some reason

Also I have no idea what you mean about one of the OOC motivators being to show players that clans are dynamic places to be. That...doesn't make any sense at all.

Rude.  You mean this line, right? "One of the greatest OOC motivators to get people into clans is to show them that it's a dynamic place to be."  Meet me halfway, at least... what doesn't make sense?