We have a number of players from parts of the world that don't match up very well to US timezones. It is no coincidence at all that the player count when it's late at night all over America is absolutely minuscule, and as it is, it's kind of a vicious circle. There aren't players around to make stuff happen, so there's nothing happening to keep players involved, so players don't log in, meaning there's nobody around to, you know, make stuff happen.
The way I see it, there are two major issues that might be rectified in some fashion.
There aren't enough movers and shakers who play off-peak.
And having just one mover and shaker who is on off-peak from time to time isn't sufficient. For one thing, the player's likely to be bored stupid from lack of things to do, and frustrated that there are all these other moving, shaking sorts around who apparently want to meet them, and complain that they aren't available, despite it merely being a chance of incompatible playtimes. I can't think of any sponsored role I've encountered lately where the player has played solely off-peak - not counting weekends, I suppose. It's not feasible.
Staff used to post calls for sponsored roles requiring that the player have good availability at peak hours. How about flipping that on its head?
RPTs etc. are frequently inconveniently timed.
An RPT taking place in the early evening American time is going to be middle of the night for Europeans, and nearer to midday for various Asians and Australians. One way to alleviate this issue is to hold your RPTs on weekends, during the morning American time if you want to catch both Europeans and Aussies, or at least afternoons to let Europeans and perhaps early-rising Australians in. No time is perfect, but some times are just awful. Also, by RPT, I mean anything from big staff-run things to escorting a wagon around.
I'm sure someone has far better ideas, or a better analysis of the problem or potential solutions, but having a thread to flag it up is at least a good starting point, I hope.
I don't want to sound like I'm picking on Tuluk too much but since the thread is related to an RPT in Tuluk, I'm going to go ahead and make a few points.
Can you imagine being a noble playing in Tuluk at off-peak? Man, even at peak time noble PCs are desperate for good rp and minions to play with because there's really not that many to pick from to begin with AT PEAK. I've recently played in Tuluk and even at peak there isn't that many PCs to begin with, and most PC nobles (and the Legion) are lacking in PCs to make the roles what they really could be with a full house.
So I don't really see why Staff should put out a call for a off peak noble PC when peak-nobles already have a hard time finding players to fill up their ranks.
Same goes for RPTs, you really want to max out your players during such events and it will always suck for off peak players, no matter what time you peak. If you want your RPT to be successful (even more so in Tuluk), you need to make sure that you have the max number of players that can attend it, and that is certainly not during Sunday afternoon (when most people are out with their loved ones), nor is it during dinner time, so that leaves the peak evenings when it really sucks for the few off-peak players.
Early morning American time is probably the worse time ever, since many are coming back from clubbing and partying, or went to bed real late, are starting their day with their loved ones to go somewhere, etc, etc...
I think there should be a forum for off-peak players and you guys should be allowed to pick a clan or a city so that you all somewhat end up in the same spot at the same time, then stuff could start happening, but if out of the 10 off peak players 2 chooses to play in Tuluk, 5 wants to play in Allanak, two wants to be solo rangers and one is some rogue 'gikers in the middle of nowhere, it will always suck to be off-peak.
Added: One of the weakness (and sadly, also its strength) of Armageddon is that you are forbidden to speak of anything remotely OOCly, which certainly doesn't help the off-peak case. If there was a sort of automated graph of how many players each clan have and at what time they seem to play, that would probably make it easier for off-peak players to select where they will next play, but sadly, someone will shout how this could be abused and it'll never happen.
STOP HAVING LIVES, THIS IS IMPORTANT
To console others, I'd like to add that, as someone who generally is independent to at least a capable degree in plot moving and amusing myself when no one's around, being off-peak, while not as ideal as having two to four times the players, isn't something that concerns me until I can't find that guy that I paid to kill that chick who knows they're not logged in and is doing psionic mess to my head and I don't know whether he's going to kill my character or not.
Apart from that I'm goody good.
I'm not accustomed to providing useful posts.
When trying to appeal to existing or potential future off-peakers, I try to get events that occur on Saturdays at 5-6 PM. In the last one in Tuluk, it had to be moved to accommodate a player. In this one, it has to be this date to accommodate me.
Someone is always going to get boned for any RPT. It'll be Europeans, or Kiwis/Australians, or Russians, or Hawaiians, or Oregonians, those on the east coast, those with night shift work hours, those with weekend work hours, those with children...the list goes on. Just like those that can plan for hours every day...get boned by clan structure and clan schedules.
We also don't call specifically for peak or off-peak roles in Tuluk. We were and have been and will likely continue to be more interested in playtimes.
Maybe find some off-peak staff to run events in each city? Or will that not help since the staff-base is small?
Axe Red Storm and Luirs as starting locations. Consolidate more.
I know I try to do this, but if you're in a clan with off peakers I always offer to arrange a "regular meetup time" where they can check in with the clan leader and get new tasks/RP. Send your clan leaders a PM. You might be pleasantly surprised at how accommodating apped in leaders try to be. I know I try to make time for players bored as hell off peak. The worst that'll happen is they'll say "my ooc schedule is strict".
Quote from: Barsook on May 05, 2014, 02:14:22 PM
Maybe find some off-peak staff to run events in each city? Or will that not help since the staff-base is small?
We have off-peak staff. Unfortunately, in this case, this is something I've volunteered to do, I want to do it, and I want to be there for it. I'm also the administrator for the region, so...I do get a bit of pull if I want to be around for an event. Since that's the case, it has to be on this day, and since I've got a pretty tight schedule that weekend, it probably needs to be within a specific window of time. Since it also involves specific PCs that must be there (or really should, if possible), we also accommodate them and make sure this works for as many of them as possible.
For events in general, as I said, if we want to be inclusive of as many time zones as possible, we try to aim for Saturdays in the afternoons if we have enough notice (so people can get out of RL stuff if they want to be there). But for specific events, sometimes you roll with what works best for the majority.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 05, 2014, 02:17:25 PM
Axe Red Storm and Luirs as starting locations. Consolidate more.
I'd love this for more of new players' first pcs rather than just their first, but to prevent all pcs from being able to be stormers or luirsmen is going to be pretty harsh in my opinion.
Perhaps during chargen, when in the Hall of Kings, require an additional command to show that storm and luir's are starting locations? That way, newbies are more likely to choose tuluk or allanak, in that order. Maybe show that as of (date,) more people are wanted in Tuluk and Allanak is overcrowded, for example, changing over time as staff perceives the flow of players. Just for the city where pcs physically start, but also trickled down to the city of origin as deemed appropriate.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on May 05, 2014, 02:33:44 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 05, 2014, 02:17:25 PM
Axe Red Storm and Luirs as starting locations. Consolidate more.
I'd love this for more of new players' first pcs rather than just their first, but to prevent all pcs from being able to be stormers or luirsmen is going to be pretty harsh in my opinion.
Newbies already have to start in Allanak or Tuluk. This was just recently added in.
And I say get rid of Luirs/Storm just because it's less controversial than getting rid of Tuluk. Which I'm more than happy to have happen as well.
There isn't really an easy fix for this. No matter when you schedule something, someone else won't be able to make it. For someone who hosts an RPT, the goal is to pick a time where as many people as possible can come and enjoy the event. By definition, off-peakers get screwed by this because they are the minority. There is little incentive to cater to one off-peaker in exchange for losing two peak players for your RPT.
Adding specifically off-peak sponsored roles into the mix won't help all that much. If an off-peak player stores their character to take on a sponsored role, that is effectively one less player playing a "normal" role at off-peak times. There should be some ratio between sponsored and regular roles to ensure that sponsored roles have enough minions and plots and so on.
What has been and likely always will be the problem is that the playerbase is scattered. 50 players scattered around the game at peak time still leaves one player with (ideally, and even this is a stretch) 20-25 PCs to interact with. 10 players scattered around the game at off-peak time leaves the player with, at most, 3-5 other PCs to interact with. And considering how big the game world is, often not even that.
Sadly, there isn't really an easy way to fix this.
- You could post player numbers in certain areas, but that will tip the balance even more. Good for consolidation, but really bad for promoting any sort of variety in the game.
- You could take away HoK options, but that involves taking away options from players when the goal of the game should be to have more options for players whenever it is possible and viable.
The idea I will chip in is this: You could define a "recommended off-peak area" for people who are off-peak, and have it rotate between the smaller areas of the game. Places like Luir's Outpost, Red Storm, and the Labyrinth are small and a few off-peak players in those places would easily run into each other. These areas wouldn't be taken away for peak players, and off-peak players still have the choice to play in other places. But it encourages consolidation without forcing it, and helps guide off-peakers to each other without being forced to play with each other.
Quote from: Cutthroat on May 05, 2014, 02:43:55 PM
The idea I will chip in is this: You could define a "recommended off-peak area" for people who are off-peak, and have it rotate between the smaller areas of the game. Places like Luir's Outpost, Red Storm, and the Labyrinth are small and a few off-peak players in those places would easily run into each other. These areas wouldn't be taken away for peak players, and off-peak players still have the choice to play in other places. But it encourages consolidation without forcing it, and helps guide off-peakers to each other without being forced to play with each other.
While I like this idea, I figure all the off-peakers worried about being off peak ALREADY pick Allanak if they're sick of a lack of interaction.
Most of the off peak people tend to get into a mindset of needing to be individually orientated in order to function in the game, it kind of perpetuates the problem in a few ways.
In my experience 'clan stacking' by off peakers also doesn't work as it tends to result in a knock on effect from what Cutthroat was talking about, it takes away roles from other people for no real benefit.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 05, 2014, 02:40:25 PM
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on May 05, 2014, 02:33:44 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 05, 2014, 02:17:25 PM
Axe Red Storm and Luirs as starting locations. Consolidate more.
I'd love this for more of new players' first pcs rather than just their first, but to prevent all pcs from being able to be stormers or luirsmen is going to be pretty harsh in my opinion.
Newbies already have to start in Allanak or Tuluk. This was just recently added in.
And I say get rid of Luirs/Storm just because it's less controversial than getting rid of Tuluk. Which I'm more than happy to have happen as well.
I would be intrigued and interested in this idea if staff declared they were implementing an experimental time period for something like this.
I meant I would like, perhaps the first five, or twelve of a new account's pcs would only have allanak or tuluk as starting locations. Then again, some newbies don't eat through early pcs like I do.
Quote from: Tuannon on May 05, 2014, 02:52:13 PM
Most of the off peak people tend to get into a mindset of needing to be individually orientated in order to function in the game, it kind of perpetuates the problem in a few ways.
That's probably why I play the way I do, to be honest.
Quote from: Malken on May 05, 2014, 12:29:47 PM
I don't want to sound like I'm picking on Tuluk too much but since the thread is related to an RPT in Tuluk, I'm going to go ahead and make a few points.
Can you imagine being a noble playing in Tuluk at off-peak? Man, even at peak time noble PCs are desperate for good rp and minions to play with because there's really not that many to pick from to begin with AT PEAK. I've recently played in Tuluk and even at peak there isn't that many PCs to begin with, and most PC nobles (and the Legion) are lacking in PCs to make the roles what they really could be with a full house.
So I don't really see why Staff should put out a call for a off peak noble PC when peak-nobles already have a hard time finding players to fill up their ranks.
Same goes for RPTs, you really want to max out your players during such events and it will always suck for off peak players, no matter what time you peak. If you want your RPT to be successful (even more so in Tuluk), you need to make sure that you have the max number of players that can attend it, and that is certainly not during Sunday afternoon (when most people are out with their loved ones), nor is it during dinner time, so that leaves the peak evenings when it really sucks for the few off-peak players.
Early morning American time is probably the worse time ever, since many are coming back from clubbing and partying, or went to bed real late, are starting their day with their loved ones to go somewhere, etc, etc...
I think there should be a forum for off-peak players and you guys should be allowed to pick a clan or a city so that you all somewhat end up in the same spot at the same time, then stuff could start happening, but if out of the 10 off peak players 2 chooses to play in Tuluk, 5 wants to play in Allanak, two wants to be solo rangers and one is some rogue 'gikers in the middle of nowhere, it will always suck to be off-peak.
Added: One of the weakness (and sadly, also its strength) of Armageddon is that you are forbidden to speak of anything remotely OOCly, which certainly doesn't help the off-peak case. If there was a sort of automated graph of how many players each clan have and at what time they seem to play, that would probably make it easier for off-peak players to select where they will next play, but sadly, someone will shout how this could be abused and it'll never happen.
Forget about nobles not having time for good RP opportunities in Tuluk during peak times... What about commoners not having any good RP opportunities. The consisten playing population of Tuluk from what I have seen is like this:
1/3 Noble (includes Faithful and Chosen)
1/3 Inked Commoners
1/3 Un-inked Commoners
Quote from: Cutthroat on May 05, 2014, 02:43:55 PM
Sadly, there isn't really an easy way to fix this.
- You could post player numbers in certain areas, but that will tip the balance even more. Good for consolidation, but really bad for promoting any sort of variety in the game.
- You could take away HoK options, but that involves taking away options from players when the goal of the game should be to have more options for players whenever it is possible and viable.
The idea I will chip in is this: You could define a "recommended off-peak area" for people who are off-peak, and have it rotate between the smaller areas of the game. Places like Luir's Outpost, Red Storm, and the Labyrinth are small and a few off-peak players in those places would easily run into each other. These areas wouldn't be taken away for peak players, and off-peak players still have the choice to play in other places. But it encourages consolidation without forcing it, and helps guide off-peakers to each other without being forced to play with each other.
I don't think that variety is that great when it involves a dozen of clans with only 1-3 players in it each. I'd rather have fewer Houses and clans with a whole bunch of PCs in them.
After all, to promote conflict, you only really need two sides going at each other, not 20.
3 sides... that way alliances can shift and change over time. The same old same old gets tiring.
That could be as simple as three clans within the same city though.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on May 05, 2014, 03:10:04 PM
Forget about nobles not having time for good RP opportunities in Tuluk during peak times... What about commoners not having any good RP opportunities. The consisten playing population of Tuluk from what I have seen is like this:
1/3 Noble (includes Faithful and Chosen)
1/3 Inked Commoners
1/3 Un-inked Commoners
While I totally agree with you, OP was mentioning how Staff could open up some roles for non-peak players. My answer was that if nobles already have trouble finding PCs to interact with and hire them in their Houses at peak, I don't think that a non-peak Chosen would have a good time (and even if he did manage to find a couple of other non-peak, he probably would still be left out of the whole political arena due to being the only Chosen around at the time).
I don't really know what the situation is in Allanak these days, but I'm going to assume that there's slightly more PCs for non-peak players there.
I do understand that constantly playing in Allanak if you're off-peak would get rather dull, though, but eh, what can you do..
(even though I'm a hardcore Tuluk fan and I've had some AWESOME Pcs there recently, I've ended up storing them all because it just gets so lonely that I get the grass is probably greener elsewhere syndrome -and- I play peak).
I constantly play in Allanak and haven't once gotten sick of it. ;D
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 05, 2014, 03:39:18 PM
I constantly play in Allanak and haven't once gotten sick of it. ;D
Yeah but you also play peak and you have a choice, I'm talking about the people who probably prefers another "scene" but are stuck playing in Allanak if they want other PCs to interact with.
Quote from: Malken on May 05, 2014, 03:40:15 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 05, 2014, 03:39:18 PM
I constantly play in Allanak and haven't once gotten sick of it. ;D
Yeah but you also play peak and you have a choice, I'm talking about the people who probably prefers another "scene" but are stuck playing in Allanak if they want other PCs to interact with.
That makes sense.
Quote from: Malken on May 05, 2014, 12:29:47 PM
Same goes for RPTs, you really want to max out your players during such events and it will always suck for off peak players, no matter what time you peak. If you want your RPT to be successful (even more so in Tuluk), you need to make sure that you have the max number of players that can attend it, and that is certainly not during Sunday afternoon (when most people are out with their loved ones), nor is it during dinner time, so that leaves the peak evenings when it really sucks for the few off-peak players.
I'd strongly question the assumption that you need a huge number of players for a good RPT. Actually, I actively avoid large RPTs like this (much more than 10 players in a room) for a wide variety of reasons (screen scroll, diluted importance of participants, unwieldly crowds making it difficult to make things happen, lots of missed poses). I can't imagine I'm the only one either.
My ideal RPT would be in the range of 6-8 players (slightly larger than a tabletop game) and that's more than doable at some of the offpeak times. Particularly if its announced ahead of time.
And it's my assumption that if you throw a RPT it's because you're wanting as many people as you can get to attend and enjoy it.
If you're wanting to limit the number of players attending your RPT then it becomes more of a private RPT and unless it's a private RPT tossed for off-peak players, limiting the number of players that can attend it certainly doesn't help off-peak players, which is what the thread is about.
Off-peak players would be ecstatic to find 6-8 players in the same room to rp with, something us peak players take for granted as just your normal night at the Gaj.
Just to clarify, I wasn't picking on the upcoming Tuluki event specifically! It just prompted this, that's all.
Quote from: Malken on May 05, 2014, 04:00:10 PM
posts detailing how even peak nobles and such can't get proper employees
Think of it in this way for a second:
If Allanak during peak has thirty players and three peak nobles, that's ten employees a noble.
If Allanak has thirty during peak and fifteen during good playtimes for me, a noble played by yours truly could try and recruit fifteen people whilst the peakers could end up with a similar number of employees.
Yeah, as I said, Allanak is probably a lot different than Tuluk and that's why I suggested that most off-peak players should play in Allanak.
Good luck finding 15 players looking for jobs in Tuluk at off-peak, though.
That's.. Entirely besides the point, but okay.
Quote from: Patuk on May 05, 2014, 04:34:00 PM
That's.. Entirely besides the point, but okay.
What is beside the point?
You're telling me that if we allow a off peak player to play a noble during off peak time in Allanak he's going to have a pool of 15 players to pick from.
I'm agreeing with you that it's quite possible in Allanak (and someone should definitely try it out) but good luck pulling those numbers in Tuluk when having 2-3 players in your House is already a great feat during peak time.
Quote from: Malken on May 05, 2014, 04:00:10 PM
And it's my assumption that if you throw a RPT it's because you're wanting as many people as you can get to attend and enjoy it.
If you're wanting to limit the number of players attending your RPT then it becomes more of a private RPT and unless it's a private RPT tossed for off-peak players, limiting the number of players that can attend it certainly doesn't help off-peak players, which is what the thread is about.
Off-peak players would be ecstatic to find 6-8 players in the same room to rp with, something us peak players take for granted as just your normal night at the Gaj.
The purpose of my post was to point out that someone that threw an open RPT (virtually everyone allowed in the area can come) during offpeak times might snag extra players that normally wouldn't attend a peak RPT
because of rather than
despite the smaller number of players.
So those of us that like smaller RPTs could actually organize open events during offpeak times and get our wish.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on May 05, 2014, 03:10:04 PM
Forget about nobles not having time for good RP opportunities in Tuluk during peak times... What about commoners not having any good RP opportunities.
If ever there was a time to say 'be the change' and not be ironic about it, it would be any case when someone is complaining that there are no good RP opportunities in the place that they are playing (especially during peak times).
This conversation doesn't need to go in that direction, though. We're talking about ways to involve folks that are more off-peak than not.
I think when we were planning out the last HRPT, we went with Sunday ultimately due to RL considerations for staff.
When doing RPTs in Tuluk considering some off-peak players (and off-peak staff), I have aimed for Saturday afternoons. Is there a perfect time that gets almost everyone at a not-so-shitty hour, all things considered? Based on my checking last time, the ideal time for a 2 hour RPT would be about 5 or 6 PM Eastern time on a Saturday.
5 or 6 PM EST on a Saturday works for me and I'm more than happy to have one during that time frame (maybe an hour later) than another time frames.
Sorry for butting in with a comment like this.
We'll forgive you this time for having a life, Nyr! :)
And yeah, I'd love to be the change in Tuluk since I consider myself a professional Tuluki but I think I'm getting old and anything that requires a faint amount of energy makes me just want to curl up in my comfy chair and take a nap instead :(
Maybe the summer will change that!
5 or 6pm on Saturday would be fine... That would be 10 or 11pm around for people in England... I'm not really sure where OP is from so I couldn't say. But I think that time frame might catch some off-peak and peak players and could be a decent mix for a good time.
I don't mean just in Tuluk, though. RPTs happen in lots of places and off-peakers play in lots of places. So don't be afraid to chime in with what is more workable for you wherever you are.
RPT times: American Saturdays is best for Aussies - it's our sunday.
Off-peak players: as one of them, it's the #1, #2 and #3 reason I never apply for sponsored roles, because why would staff give it to someone who logs in to do high-level game impact when 4 other people are around? That doesn't drive the game.
5 to 6pm server time is probably the best time you're likely to get to catch players from all over, yeah.
Here's a thought: adjust noble and merchant House documentation a little to allow for the delegation of additional responsibilities to minions. Or for nobles, at least. So perhaps have aides with certain hiring rights, or who can grant or revoke permission for some stuff without having to pass everything through the noble first - they can report it after if they must. Give aides actual documented authority rather than, er, whatever they're currently permitted, which I think amounts to 'not a lot', plus some sitting at bars and passing messages. To the best of my knowledge, and not counting House paramilitary outfits where a Sergeant-type person can generally hire, all hiring is ultimately done by a noble. I'd look at changing that up, if I wanted to get more people involved with where plots and whatnot are presumably at.
I'd like to see more off peak sponsored roles in existence. With nobles, it creates the problem where if you want to get anything done, you have to involve other nobility. If you can never find those nobility, or find their aides, because your time and your aides' time doesn't overlap, that is very difficult. It's difficult to even write them letters, for lack of someone to deliver them.
What I would love to see, which I think is on topic for that reason, are scripted NPC at the gates of the noble houses to whom someone could deliver written letters to a named noble, which the specified noble could then pick up. (Merchant houses too, not that they're writing or anything, it's all just tabulations Lady Templar ::) ) We might have less problem finding and retaining off-peak nobles if there was an easy way to get them involved in, and keep them involved in, on-peak politics and projects.
On a side note, I think that the mentality that "nothing goes on during off peak times" is an untrue and self-perpetuating statement. Admittedly I have never played solely off peak. But a lot of times I have logged in off peak, I have found things to do, both in and out of sponsored roles. If you don't log in because you think that nothing is going on, nothing will be going on. If you play consistently, and are fun to play around, people will find you.
Quote from: Delusion on May 05, 2014, 06:03:47 PM
So perhaps have aides with certain hiring rights, or who can grant or revoke permission for some stuff without having to pass everything through the noble first - they can report it after if they must. Give aides actual documented authority rather than, er, whatever they're currently permitted, which I think amounts to 'not a lot', plus some sitting at bars and passing messages. To the best of my knowledge, and not counting House paramilitary outfits where a Sergeant-type person can generally hire, all hiring is ultimately done by a noble. I'd look at changing that up, if I wanted to get more people involved with where plots and whatnot are presumably at.
Aide roles like this do exist, both of the sponsored-in and worked-their-way-up variety. The best known examples might be Borsail Advisors/Administrators, though similar concepts have happened in Oash and Fale. Will you see aides selling slaves or planning entire Festivals? Probably not, but with the right amount of trust earned they've been able to throw RPTs on their own in the past. Hopefully, we'll continue to see this in the future, too.
Or, maybe if you are an off-peak player in your region, you can go out and recruit some new Arm'ers that live near you so there will be more players during your available times. :)
That should be good for everyone.
"hey buddy! I know you never seemed like the roleplaying type of guy, but I know this awesome game called 'Armageddon'....
As a noble, my expectation on an aide would be 'Did you do a thing for me and it made me money/gained me positive opinion?' If yes, good work. If no, what are you good for?
I don't micromanage my staff IRL, why would I elsewhere?
Quote from: Zoan on May 05, 2014, 08:23:43 PM
As a noble, my expectation on an aide would be 'Did you do a thing for me and it made me money/gained me positive opinion?' If yes, good work. If no, what are you good for?
I'd be like, "Fuck off, if you aren't happy with my work I'll go work for the guy that's actually around when I am! I do what I want!"
emote snaps his fingers and storms off with a hmpft.
That sounds reasonable. :(
IC I tend to be like 'Oh good, the person with control over my life doesn't realize I exist. So long as the coin comes my way I'm happy.'
OOC I tend to be like 'Maaaaaaan I sure could do with some templar-grovelling right now.'
Quote from: Malken on May 05, 2014, 04:00:10 PM
posts detailing how even peak nobles and such can't get proper employees
What is a proper employee for a noble?
Actually, why not just close Tuluk (it's isolating itself from the south now anyhow) and close the Tablelands clans (which might as well be playing on a different server, almost) as an experiment for a few months. Or do you all figure some people would just quit the game if that happened?
To me it seems like the best and most easily(?) implemented idea so far is to close off some of those one and two player clans to consolidate the Tuluki player base. Three sides sounds perfect, you add in the Faithful, and that's the wild card, the fourth side that isn't really a side.
I have no idea what's going on in the tablelands. People are playing there? (Sorry, I just sort of assumed they either haunt Luir's these days, or are gypsies trying to pretend they don't exist around other people as they ping pong between Luir's and Red Storm)
EDIT: I would have also said giving aides and other such non-leaders more ability to hire on new people, but I can't really see such a shift in the social structure working out well in more than a few cases. Also, this endangers the hirer the way it wouldn't have if the noble/merchant house family member were the hirer; what if they hire someone who turns out to be the next (insert name here)? In the worst, worst way. Great for stories, for the plots, for the conflict--- but the aide now has to shoulder the consequences in order to save their employer's face, and didn't have a clue this slap in the face with a fish was coming to them.
Obviously this is all subjective. I just can't really see Niceknifesmilekill Salaar, who is either stored, dead or hanging onto the slightest bit of dearly-given power with their toes while they're trying to walk, suddenly deciding to give Aide Sexyladyassassin the power to hire anyone she deems worthy. I'd rather a different solution were reached than for everyone to get an unrealistic (and god help us, visibly permanent in its decisions) blindspot, even a harmless one, especially when it comes to power play and the social order.
(I mean most aides and aide-analogues--- not the ones with some actual, realistic weight to throw around.)
Christ, you're making what I'm saying seem complicated.
Suppose I log in during a morning where I don't have class, or an early afternoon, which would be around 4-8 am server time. During this time I find two people to RP with, one of which is a magicker, the other of which is an independent ranger. This is not an uncommon occurence.
Do their players specifically like those roles? Maybe. But hell, have you ever tried playing during such times and getting clanned? I've had characters stay independent for more than a week simply because I couldn't find a soul with the power to hire. That all I meet is magickers and independents isn't very strange when you consider that such roles are all that's viable without having actual people around.
Yes, nobles playing during peak time are going to have more people around. Now the thirty or so people who play when I'm long asleep can decide who they'll work for and act all entitled because hey plenty nobles, if this one is mean I can jump ship and go elsewhere.
More sponsored roles across the timezone board would do more than just give opportunities to play in clans for those outside the US, though. Other than simply giving those playing outside peak times someone to flock around, you ensure that the leaders who do play during peak times won't have to compete for employees as much.
I do want to point out that when you're OFF PEAK the game can feel like a stand alone experience.
When you're pro-active you CAN do stuff... But the moment you involve others in your plots and THEY have to deal with their clan leaders who are peak, things become a bit of a nightmare.
I say this from experience as I've had about 3
very pro-active, off-peak PCs (and with every PC I've had, I've tried at least to
'be the change').
That being said, I've managed to do a lot in the game Off-Peak and staff have been supportive... But people do get impatient when you play in the wee hours of EST time, esp if you're trying run a plot or are a lynch pin in one. When a few off-peak players get together amazing things can happen though. I'm a bit biased and consider us off-peak players the cream of the crop :)
Yet, it's
one of the reasons I don't play pro-active PC's anymore.
Quote from: valeria on May 05, 2014, 06:04:12 PMIf you play consistently, and are fun to play around, people will find you.
...and this is very true.
There's off peak, and there's off peak.
2AM to 6AM server time - that's about as off-peak as it gets.
However, 8AM-4PM is also off-peak, and I can usually swing a couple of hours during those times, on most days.
On the other end of the spectrum, 10PM-midnite server time seems to be part of peak-time, and I can *rarely* play during that two-hour window, even on weekends.
I often miss parts of RPTs even if I can attend them, because they usually run longer than I can stay logged in. Doesn't bother me too much though, as long as I can participate in parts of them, I'm usually content.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 06, 2014, 08:38:55 AM
I often miss parts of RPTs even if I can attend them, because they usually run longer than I can stay logged in. Doesn't bother me too much though, as long as I can participate in parts of them, I'm usually content.
Even if you just play consistently, people will see you.
I try to be consistently seen as RL lets me, to do my bit for off peakers, even when I made my grumpy old bag visit the 'Post for a drink every third RL day. I try to be there to show that the world isn't Empty,to show there is an off peaker in my clan, to be a message boy in Chinese whispers. Another PC and another PC and you've got a crowd! That's what I live for.
I am grateful for players of those Nobles that offer me the PM option to arrange face to face meetings.
And thank goodness for Sundays sorry Saturdays, too. Meet the world day.
Quote from: Patuk on May 06, 2014, 05:54:16 AM
More sponsored roles across the timezone board would do more than just give opportunities to play in clans for those outside the US, though. Other than simply giving those playing outside peak times someone to flock around, you ensure that the leaders who do play during peak times won't have to compete for employees as much.
For the record, time zone is one of the things that has the absolute least impact on who we choose for sponsored roles, if that helps ease your concern any. Unless we're talking about a situation where there's already another noble/templar in the same clan who plays quite off-peak, we never exclude off-peak players simply by basis of their time zone.
Unfortunately I think the reality is that there are fewer sponsored roles who can play during non-peaktime hours simply because there are fewer players full stop who play those hours. Most of the time, the people who apply for such roles are broken down along similar proportions as the people who play other roles.
It's good to hear Calavera. Once upon a time I considered apping for a sponsored role in one of the larger houses just to give Off-Peakers some more action. I might try again maybe, some day.
Although it begs the question: While you don't exclude off-peakers on the basis of their time-zone for sponsored roles, does it hurt their application? Say if you're looking for a Noble in a House, aren't staff looking for someone that will be not only pro-active but also reach the most amount of PC's to fill the void?
You could.... encourage people from your time zone/s to start playing the game. ;)
Regional recruitment pushes would be awesome. I tried running a recruitment contest (posting flyers/posters and taking pictures/vids of where you posted them) a few years ago with some awesome prizes (kruth cards and other arm themed stuff), but literally no one participated after nearly two weeks. :(
I would, but, y'know, Dutch.
It's too late at night for me to think straight. But right now it feels an interesting concept that a Noble spend all their Saturday linking time with their minions and the other one or two fellow nobles. They put in the early work aka Vanth to set up their minions to make a wide time zone network, and get one or two promoted to Leader as quick as possible. They would spend their daily off peak time with the inner circle and appearing in public to a minority of PCs.
I'm NZ time, and when I was moving and shaking IG, it took an earthquake to give me the time to play peak consistently (no work, nothing else to do).
Peak is super frustrating for NZ/Aus, as it ends around 3pm/1pm local time respectively, and begins around 9pm/7pm local. Core business hours basically, with no chance to structure work around getting home for it. I have historically taken paid leave in order to go to, or to run, critical RPTs. In NZ/Aus, you miss US Sunday, which also sucks. US Friday evening is surprisingly good though.
The NZ/Aus peak is pretty cool, as the timezone serves a weird niche in being able to bridge US and European timezones. The game feels horrifically big and empty at these times though, especially later NZ evening when it sinks to 7ish players. If you don't have people coming to you, you meet nobody. I'd get a little frustrated from time to time, and I do believe it interferes with plot running, plot involvement and admin oversight/support, but it's just how it is and you either adapt, or you accept it. More staff at the hours probably wouldn't help or anything, but some more PC leaders at these times, esp ones like Byn, where it's low maintenance minimal oversight dangerous fun, could really help. It comes down to the players who play these times to band together for that kind of thing however.
If leaders and off-peakers had some in-game way to leave messages for each other when separated by time, there would be more interaction between them.
Unfortunate that reading and writing are so restricted.
If leaders could give certain clan NPCs simple directives, it would help them to set up tasks, decision trees and surprises (non-combat ones) for off-peakers. Why shouldn't a PC sergeant be able to order a NPC guard, for example, to fetch something out of a storage room for a given PC upon sight?
>
The bored off-peaker arrives from the west.
>
The scar-faced shitcloak looks up and nods.
>
The scar-faced shitcloak says, "Wait here, Runner Dickwad".
>
The scar-faced shitcloak walks north.
>
The scar-faced shitcloak arrives from the north.
>
The scar-faced shitcloak gives the bored off-peaker a raptor-tooth throwing knife.
>
The scar-faced shitcloak says, in sirihish:
"Courtesy of Sergeant Doomplummet"
>
The scar-faced shitcloak resumes watching the work hall.
>
The bored off-peaker looks a little less bored.
Or report if a PC enters a forbidden room?
The grim ass-kicker Sergeant arrives from the west.
>
The grim ass-kicker Sergeant asks the half-giant soldier, in sirihish:
"Reports?"
>
The half-giant soldier exclaims, in sirihish:
"I saw that new recruit Loofish enter the office, Sarge!"
>
The grim ass-kicker Sergeant looks grimmer still.
>
I was gonna post about how an in game messaging system would be a boon for offpeak. I like your examples eyeball.
I don't bother logging in during Aussie peak because of the above reasons.
The only time I have to play (that is, when a reasonable amount of people are around) is when I'm supposed to be working. :P
Quote from: Zoan on August 07, 2014, 08:59:17 AM
I don't bother logging in during Aussie peak because of the above reasons.
The only time I have to play (that is, when a reasonable amount of people are around) is when I'm supposed to be working. :P
I'm briefly speechless.
If you don't have a drink in Storms End, because no other PC is. :(
Please support the cause, Cousin. Play with us.
If I went to Storm's End as my current PC, you'd all ignore me anyway. So don't worry. :P
Maybe when I play a Hunter or something next.
If more of you found an excuse to log on earlier.....like.....five hours earlier....
i think apartment buildings should have a message board that only tenants can access. hidden sneaky types who break into the building should NOT be able to use or access this board, however... as it makes no sense ICly that they would be able to listen in on tenant's private messages. therefore implementing it might be a little hard.
But if there were more low-stress message boards for people to leave quick notes to each other then it'd do a huge amount to bridge the offpeak gap.
OR: if there were a way to pay a fee to someone to relay the message only to its intended target when posting on such a board, then automatically erase the message once it is viewed, then we could have essentially a mailbox system with messengers.
Then there's also writing becoming more widespread, but I think paying messengers is fine and much more zalanthan. there ought to be hundreds of willing beggars who'd work to just relay a message, that's an easy job for a NPC to do.
>l
A small apartment foyer [N S]
This is the shoddy entryway to the tenements south of the commons.
There is a welcome desk, and a hallway going south. A small table near
the desk serves as a resting spot for the occasional visitor to relax.
The red-haired skinny woman leans forward on the desk here.
A mousy, dark-skinned boy is here taking and relaying messages for coins.
>look mousy
The mousy, dark-skinned youth tells you, in Sirihish,
"There ain't no messages fer ya."
(OOC note: See 'help private board' for syntax and instructions.)
>help private board
Private message boards
There are often messengers acting as a bulletin board in certain places
such as guild halls and apartment buildings. The syntax for using them is
similar as for other boards, but instead of a subject line, you enter the
keywords for whoever is to receive the message. You may leave as
many keywords as you can, and a match will allow someone to view
your message. It is recommended you use unique keywords, like names.
See also:
help write
>write mousy Amos
The mousy, dark-skinned youth charges you 50 obsidian coins.
You are now editing a message with the mousy, dark-skinned youth.
Terminate on an empty line with ~.
==========================================
Amos, in case you forgot, you owe me a large.
I'm gettin' impatient.
Leave word with this kid when you've got it.
Debts gonna go up in a month if I ain't paid.
--Slick
Later, Amos comes in to the apartment.
A small apartment foyer [N S]
This is the shoddy entryway to the tenements south of the commons.
There is a welcome desk, and a hallway going south. A small table near
the desk serves as a resting spot for the occasional visitor to relax.
The red-haired skinny woman leans forward on the desk here.
A mousy, dark-skinned boy is here taking and relaying messages for coins.
>look mousy
The mousy, dark-skinned boy has one message:
====================================
1 Amos, in case you forgot, you owe me a large. (date)
>read mousy 1
Amos, in case you forgot, you owe me a large.
I'm gettin' impatient.
Leave word with this kid when you've got it.
Debts gonna go up in a month if I ain't paid.
--Slick
>think Shit.
You think:
"Shit."
>look mousy
The mousy, dark-skinned youth tells you, in Sirihish,
"There ain't no messages fer ya."
While I see where you're coming from, it's really not all that hard to relay messages to other PC's via... Well, other PC's.
Well it can be quite hard. I look on it as part of Skill Networking that most PC's level up in.
I'd certainly like an automated option such as this. Clever.
Quote from: bcw81 on August 10, 2014, 05:43:42 PM
While I see where you're coming from, it's really not all that hard to relay messages to other PC's via... Well, other PC's.
it can be pretty hard. If I only have five minutes to play for many hours, and the person(s) i need to get in touch with tend not to log in during that time window, there's no way I'm getting any messages to them today. If I leave a message with a board, it gets to them that day as long as they log in and check it. It'd make a huge difference for me, throughout pretty much every PC I play.
It can be especially difficult if you're not playing peak.
Quote from: valeria on August 11, 2014, 06:59:08 PM
It can be especially difficult if you're not playing peak.
I agree, and this is mostly what clan forums are for. IT'd be neat if indies had something similar they could use.
Perhaps a tavern-specific "rumor" board. Where you could spread news that isn't "big" enough to make it across the city.
They should probably auto-delete after an RL week, too.
I have always thought that this would be much more useful for 90% of the non-leader/staff/militia PCs than telling something to a city-wide hawker.
Suggests a character concept to me, where a high or routine playtime character serves as a "messenger" for people.
You could Way this PC a message for your target (maybe using code words to encrypt the message), and that PC would periodically try to contact your target and deliver the message.
Probably fully scriptable, although I'm sure borging your char isn't good form. Maybe an NPC could even be scripted to do it. :P
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 11, 2014, 09:00:55 PM
Perhaps a tavern-specific "rumor" board. Where you could spread news that isn't "big" enough to make it across the city.
They should probably auto-delete after an RL week, too.
I like this even better... a quick-erase message board that deletes messages after 48 hours or so. That way you wouldn't feel guilty about jotting a short message specifically for someone (again, maybe encrypted with code words)...
> write board A message for Balos
> A young bedraggled page is on the lookout for someone named Balos, who he has a message for. Something cryptic about "the rat being out of its cage."
> ~
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 11, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
Quote from: valeria on August 11, 2014, 06:59:08 PM
It can be especially difficult if you're not playing peak.
I agree, and this is mostly what clan forums are for. IT'd be neat if indies had something similar they could use.
I don't think clan forums are a good way to relay IC information though. They're more for organizational purposes.
Quote from: CodeMaster on August 11, 2014, 09:05:27 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 11, 2014, 09:00:55 PM
Perhaps a tavern-specific "rumor" board. Where you could spread news that isn't "big" enough to make it across the city.
They should probably auto-delete after an RL week, too.
I like this even better... a quick-erase message board that deletes messages after 48 hours or so. That way you wouldn't feel guilty about jotting a short message specifically for someone (again, maybe encrypted with code words)...
> write board A message for Balos
> A young bedraggled page is on the lookout for someone named Balos, who he has a message for. Something cryptic about "the rat being out of its cage."
> ~
This would be an excellent addition. I like a week of time more than 48 hours for the auto-erase, but it'd be really helpful.
Quote from: Eyeball on August 11, 2014, 10:39:09 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 11, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
Quote from: valeria on August 11, 2014, 06:59:08 PM
It can be especially difficult if you're not playing peak.
I agree, and this is mostly what clan forums are for. IT'd be neat if indies had something similar they could use.
I don't think clan forums are a good way to relay IC information though. They're more for organizational purposes.
They're used that way all the time via rumors. And it's helpful.
A simple message up/down the chain of command via the forum rumors boards can go a long ways for people in offpeak. It's like when you're a soldier PC and you can't get a hold of your superiors about a criminal and you don't know when you will see them next.
Clan forums are the best way we have to relay IC information like that.
Don't most if not all clans have IG rumor boards?
Yeah but nobody uses them(therefore nobody reads them).
IG Rumor Boards for clans don't seem to be used for the most part - I can look back at my current clan's board and see it's been used most recently in 2012. While yes, they would seem to be good, they do seem to be more of a way to get important info across. The clan forums seems a better place to get in contact with your leaders - Leave a message stating you need to talk to them when they're available, and work out a time from there. I know when I'm playing leaders I will do my damnest to try to be on at the time you ask.
As for personal message boards in apartments - Eh... It seems overkill. If you're not on the same playtimes as someone else, you probably don't know them well, if at all. If you have intersecting playtimes, you'll probably be able to find them at some point, or you'll be able to find someone else with better playtimes than you to get the message across.
I involve off-peakers by playing at ridiculous hours for half of the week, but I'm sure not every wants to fuck up their sleep cycle like that. At the end of the day you have to get more people in your area playing if you really want to deal with the off-peak situation.
Well, the point of the thread was to find a way to involve offpeakers. Get offpeakers to find more offpeakers to play with may not be an "overkill" solution but it sure is a totally useless one, no offense. "just find more friends to play with you" doesn't improve my ability to get involved with the important movers and shakers on peak.
I've other posts in the thread too, you know. I'm just stating what I think should be pretty obvious. That off-peak will always be off-peak as long as we have the playerbase we do, and that major workarounds to problem aren't realistic, and that the workarounds that are realistic don't actually help the problem that much.
It's sucks but thems the breaks.
Yeah. And as it has been told to me many times, the game isn't fair. So have fun with that solution I guess.
Quote from: Eyeball on August 11, 2014, 10:39:09 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 11, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
Quote from: valeria on August 11, 2014, 06:59:08 PM
It can be especially difficult if you're not playing peak.
I agree, and this is mostly what clan forums are for. IT'd be neat if indies had something similar they could use.
I don't think clan forums are a good way to relay IC information though. They're more for organizational purposes.
I agree with this in general. But I did some sleuthing, and for more context here's an earlier post by Adhira on these forums:
Quote
OK to post [on ooc forums]:
-- Your availability to play, such as playtimes, timezone, and absences.
-- General information about your character which would be known by everyone in the clan such as name, rank, sdesc, where stationed.
-- Information about clan area organization (what's where), cleanup efforts, locker claims.
-- RPT announcements including OOC/IC time and place, general subject or activities.
-- OOC discussion and questions about stuff relevant to the clan such as rules, structure, IC schedules, uniforms, how to play a particular clan role.
-- IC rumors, preferably in a single thread, of the same type and nature that could be posted to a clan board found in the game. This is allowed because not all clans have rumor boards in game and because the GDB is more accessible. IC rumors should generally NOT contain every single detail or the whole truth about what happened or who did what, nor should they seek to aggrandize anyone's PC. Instead they should leave room for interpretation and encourage players to seek out more information ICly; they're clues to what's happening, not the whole story. A leader posting an IC rumor about tasks that minions should be pursuing is acceptable so long as it's very general.
(http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=39382.0 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=39382.0))
i.e., if a leader RPs asking an NPC to relay a message to an off-peak player, I gather it would be fine to write that message (or some bastardization thereof) on the clan web forum. This way the message has already been verbalized in game at least once, making it possible for sneaks and spies to see it... which I believe should always be possible.
To me, that seems to solve (or at least address) the communication issue for off-peak players
that are in clans.
--
But realistically, what proportion of off-peak players are in clans?
My impression is that they might avoid clans because of asynchronous playtimes with leaders and, in some cases, restrictive schedules that are bearable only when you have others to play with. (Cleaning the latrines alone wasn't particularly engaging the
first time...)
So I have to imagine the staff wouldn't be too upset if you used the existing tavern message boards to relay vague messages, as long as you follow the general guidelines Adhira wrote above.
I don't think the existing tavern boards work well for that purpose, because they have too far of a reach in Allanak and Tuluk (i.e., all taverns in the city) and are currently home to numerous super-important recruitment messages and event announcements that are applicable to a lot more people than private messages would be. Those other posts serve to intimidate someone away from using it for their private coded messages, and if those message boards became cluttered with private messages, it'd be a huge staff workload to trim out all the private messages over and over.
I think there just needs to be one more message board for Allanak and Tuluk. Red Storm and Luir's only have one tavern, so that's fine as is; same for other message boards that are available to unclanned PCs. But Allanak and Tuluk could use just one more. I would suggest the Red Sun Commons for Tuluk, as it is a commoner's hub already.
Yes, I am aware of the rinth board; not applicable to this problem, as it is too dangerous to use for many.
Quote from: CodeMaster on August 12, 2014, 12:57:32 PM
i.e., if a leader RPs asking an NPC to relay a message to an off-peak player, I gather it would be fine to write that message (or some bastardization thereof) on the clan web forum. This way the message has already been verbalized in game at least once, making it possible for sneaks and spies to see it... which I believe should always be possible.
To me, that seems to solve (or at least address) the communication issue for off-peak players that are in clans.
So what if you want to send a personal message, instead of making it known to all in the clan?
What about the issue that it should be possible to intercept or overhear IC messages in game?
What's wrong with using some NPCs for the interaction, in game, instead passing messages through an OOC medium?
Admit it, the forum boards aren't really meant for delayed IC interaction.
Quote from: Eyeball on August 12, 2014, 10:19:58 PM
So what if you want to send a personal message, instead of making it known to all in the clan?
What about the issue that it should be possible to intercept or overhear IC messages in game?
I can totally see your point. There isn't really a facility for that use case... and I strongly agree with you - the ability to intercept/overhear IC messages should be preserved.
Quote from: Eyeball on August 12, 2014, 10:19:58 PM
What's wrong with using some NPCs for the interaction, in game, instead passing messages through an OOC medium?
Nothing! I think such a thing would be a really cool script. Something like:
$ contact bernie
You contact the tan, dull-eyed dwarf.
$ psi I have a message for Thrain.
You send a telepathic message:
"I have a message for Thrain."
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
"Message for Thrain, go ahead."
$ psi You smell
You send a telepathic message:
"Thrain, you smell like a scrab's armpit"
The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
"I'll tell that to Thrain when I find him around."
...later, Thrain sees:
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
"I believe I have a message for you from the chuckle-faced elf."
The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
"Thrain, you smell like a scrab's armpit."
Quote from: Eyeball on August 12, 2014, 10:19:58 PM
Admit it, the forum boards aren't really meant for delayed IC interaction.
I agree it isn't a good fit, but it's good to be aware of the options (and how they might be improved).
I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 13, 2014, 01:05:30 AM
I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.
I think this is one of those things where it has to be added to the game and given time to become part of people's routine. Nobody is going to flock to and start using any added features or tools en masse, I agree, but with enough time people will either learn to integrate it into their play, or it'll be ignored.
I personally think that without literacy as an option to leave behind significant messages to each other, that Zalanthans would be resourceful and learn to use their environment in other ways to deliver important, brief messages. we have thousands and thousands of vNPCs who clearly need more to do... we need more things for players to sink coins into, and yes, though using other PCs would be ideal, the whole problem is there aren't enough PCs to go around, particularly for off-peak players, or sporadic players.
Quote from: Harmless on August 13, 2014, 01:46:01 AM
I personally think that without literacy as an option to leave behind significant messages to each other, that Zalanthans would be resourceful and learn to use their environment in other ways to deliver important, brief messages. we have thousands and thousands of vNPCs who clearly need more to do... we need more things for players to sink coins into, and yes, though using other PCs would be ideal, the whole problem is there aren't enough PCs to go around, particularly for off-peak players, or sporadic players.
Well said.
I like the idea of being able to have ongoing communication the more I think about it.
More spitballing... the lore around the Way could be expanded to include "ethereal packages" that float around until their recipient is around. No need to involve NPCs. "Messaging" could be a skill that branches off "contact..."
> message Thrain I need more scrab shells.
You attempt to leave a message in the ether for your target.
Later, when Thrain logs on - assuming he doesn't have a barrier up.
A message arrives on the unseen ether of the Way.
The message is from the chuckle-faced elf:
"I need more scrab shells."
If there are two Thrains, that's your problem - messages could just find the recipients that match them best. Probably half-baked and hairbrained, but it might be neat.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 13, 2014, 01:05:30 AM
I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.
I think messenger NPCs would get used a lot actually.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 13, 2014, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 13, 2014, 01:05:30 AM
I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.
I think messenger NPCs would get used a lot actually.
Can't know unless they go in. And them going in is sort of a pipe dream unless you get yourself on staff and do it yourself.
Maybe I'm just being cynical. :-\
Quote from: CodeMaster on August 13, 2014, 04:46:41 PM
I like the idea of being able to have ongoing communication the more I think about it.
More spitballing... the lore around the Way could be expanded to include "ethereal packages" that float around until their recipient is around. No need to involve NPCs. "Messaging" could be a skill that branches off "contact..."
> message Thrain I need more scrab shells.
You attempt to leave a message in the ether for your target.
Later, when Thrain logs on - assuming he doesn't have a barrier up.
A message arrives on the unseen ether of the Way.
The message is from the chuckle-faced elf:
"I need more scrab shells."
If there are two Thrains, that's your problem - messages could just find the recipients that match them best. Probably half-baked and hairbrained, but it might be neat.
Someone else has suggested that maybe we should be able to quit out but leave our "way presence" on for a while. You could throw off people trying to hunt you because they won't know when you're logged on and not. Likewise, you can't tell when your killers are logged on, so you never know when they might show up.
This could be a mechanism to hold onto Way messages while you're logged off as well, then check them out when you log back in. it also serves to give people an excuse for ignoring people's Ways. you could barrier before logging off... that'd help to throw people off, especially if your barrier skill is very high. Perhaps that could negate this change, or maybe your barrier can be broken while you're logged off. Then messages could be left.
How this change would affect psionicists is confusing, though. Anyway, it'd take a lot of metagame away... so I'm for it.
..and I am always for any idea that increases the amount of PK so I would prefer this over the suggestion of a message command, though really, anything added on would be cool with me.
(made my final edit.)
That would be really cool too.
Just to add to that idea, it would be neato if you could send Way messages to dead people too (although they can't receive them, obviously). This way you couldn't use the Way to sniff out whether someone has recently died, altogether making the Way a little bit fuzzier and a little less meta.
Quote from: CodeMaster on August 14, 2014, 02:45:54 AM
That would be really cool too.
Just to add to that idea, it would be neato if you could send Way messages to dead people too (although they can't receive them, obviously). This way you couldn't use the Way to sniff out whether someone has recently died, altogether making the Way a little bit fuzzier and a little less meta.
yes, definitely. That'd also be a great addition. There are many spinoff things that could be done with Waying the dead, too, and it'd make for an interesting new mechanic to explore.
...for example, maybe psionicists could sometimes overhear messages being sent to the dead, as a way to gain information and insight into what people are up to...
man, I want this change too much. lol
The persnickety employer sends:
When I way you for three hours straight, I expect an answer.
Quote from: Barzalene on August 14, 2014, 08:30:36 AM
The persnickety employer sends:
When I way you for three hours straight, I expect an answer.
Sounds like my boss, except it's 'three minutes straight'.
I'm new, and I play off-peak (UTC+9), and while the player population is usually low during my prime playing times, I haven't found it debilitating. I could see off-peak being annoying if you were in a clan full of Americans, and therefore left out of the loop on RPTs, but playing off-peak just means finding other off-peak players. I've managed to find some consistent interactions with players, and during the times I can log in during peak American times, I'm greeted with a sea of new players and plots that I can dip into at my leisure. These ideas discussed with the Way are really interesting, and could be fun to implement. Even then, though, if your only interaction with another player is leaving text strings for them to get upon login, that would get old fast. Still, I'm all for new mechanics that further connectivity between players of all time zones.
I am playing in GMT+4 timezone and even in Allanak it was a problem for me to find anything to do.
I noted that average online during my playing hours is 7-10 characters.
My first character, for example, was a member of Allanak's certain faction. During my daytime the character's schedule looked like that:
Spend the day idling at meeting place and wait for other other fellas, if I was really lucky - there would be a sole PC or even a couple. A couple is a bloody miracle to happen.
During the nights I was idling at the Gaj, with no PC character or other idlers who did not note my presence yet.
To give you a feeling how fascinating it was - I learnt to play on Armageddon fullscreen, while watching the movie in half-sized window.
In the end character died exploring the hazardous areas, because I was bored as a player.
Currently I improved my idling methoda - once in half of an hour I just attempt to contact every and each PC that my character knows.
On the other hand- it *greatly* improves the quality of roleplay. People are really trying hard just because it is a rare thing to meet another PC.
Reviving this thread because off peakers need the same love.
From the RAT thread:
QuoteI think off peakers should have the same if not THE SAME kind of opportunity for progress and promotion in ANY clan.
I'm bringing something I experienced a year or more ago where I feel like what is the point of playing in clans when I'm off peak? What's the point of clocking in time, roleplaying and grinding skills just to prep your PC to be able to do the things that he/she was aiming to be promoted to? Why are there such PC leaders who can easily shrug their shoulders and assume that off peakers aren't playing or performing the roles well enough to function or even make as an addition to their little clique? I see it as a benefit to have an offpeaker in charge to actually do something with those who are also other offpeakers.
Even saying this point blank in my face:
Quote
"I wanna see ya going on more on contracts then we'd discuss again about being promoted."
I think that's outright rude to me as a player who sometimes deliberately risk their work time (which is your usual peak) to hop on and 'try to make a presence and show that 'hey, I'm a very good prospect, give me more!'. Even at that point, me as the player has managed to drag my ass so early in my morning to attend one of your stupid boring contract rpts, just to show that I'm just as good as everyone else. Oh, did I mention also beating/fending off everyone else in the ring? Is that not good enough? I had felt that the PC leaders in that clan at one time failed me beyond salvation.
The problem is just this: Different timezone. Your promotion/performance is at the hands of your on peak PC leader who doesn't see you and doesn't really give a shit. (just because they can)
Do I want to send in a player complaint? Pretty sure it's faaaarrr too late for that though. This is just the grudges that's bubbling up and I felt like I had to make it known in the RAT thread. Now I'm not saying that there are other alternatives to do alternatives, but I think I'm most miffed because there was a problem that I couldn't figure out -how- to go around, because all the decisions actually lies on those PC leaders. I think I remember asking staff about it, they pointed me to those scumbag PC leaders.
TL;DR: Off Peakers shouldn't be discriminated in clan progression and rightfully offered alternatives to prove their worth or the same opportunities as the on peaks.
Yes, bad flashback rant over and I feel much better. Please take with a grain of salt.
At it stands and if I may be blunt, off peaks are lagging behind in clan progression (and if they had done all that they can to actually vie for the position), just to get more level of power to actually do something for other off peakers. Though that never happens because most PC positions are akin to how much your PC leader sees you and personally assess you because they want to be a jerk and hence you feel trapped and bored out of your wits.
What can be done for the off peakers? How can they become valuable to on peak and how can the on peak leaders be valuable to the off peaks?
I will say that there have been leaders who have made my off peak time very, very enjoyable because they can log in at weird hours of their time and I try to recipocrate to wake at odd hours of my own time just to participate or to give that player a break and show in my actions as a player through my PC that I am thankful for their effort. Though majority of the PC leaders, I feel (I could be wrong), don't really give a damn about off peakers just because they can.
Some RAT replies:
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 22, 2015, 07:44:50 AM
I think that's a valid point and maybe a topic worth discussing in its own thread so it doesn't get buried here in RAT.
edit: Perhaps with a little less vitriol towards whoever your clan leaders were. It sounds like you had a bad experience in the Byn and I imagine it can be somewhat trying to keep track of two dozen runners/troopers who all want to be promoted. Sometimes it might be difficult to tell who's an off-peaker and who's one of those folks who just log in for RPTs.
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 22, 2015, 07:45:36 AM
Sure, you can have all the promotions you want if staff agree that you don't take up one of the clan slots. Otherwise you end up effectively dead weight to me because I only see you 10% of the time and I'm dead weight to you because I'm not leading you because our playtimes don't sync up.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 22, 2015, 07:49:49 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 22, 2015, 07:45:36 AM
Sure, you can have all the promotions you want if staff agree that you don't take up one of the clan slots. Otherwise you end up effectively dead weight to me because I only see you 10% of the time and I'm dead weight to you because I'm not leading you because our playtimes don't sync up.
Seeing the majority of the players are on peak, this is pretty much saying to me that off peakers don't really have a place to belong in the already established clans IG. And there is no alternative route or a 'special slot' for an off peak brigade to go out and do things. I generally find myself on my own as an off peak and just playing a solo rpg. If I wanted one, I can go elsewhere for it.
I'll open up a thread just for the woes of off peakers, if there isn't any thread of them.
What I'm looking for is how do the two off peak and on peak to not become dead weight and still valuable to each other, if not then it's going to be split into two different worlds and the off peak side is generally losing. I say delegate additional responsibilities to those whom you know can log at odd hours of the time to do something for the off peakers. It doesn't have to be a 5 hour thing, it can easily even be a 30 minutes lesson, sparring, rp or even a short ride to collect rocks. Even the small things like that will make an off peaker happy because it shows that we're not forgotten and that our progress in skills especially are not left behind due to the time difference.
@Havok: That is only fair if I myself have been just logging in for the RPTs but at the time, it was only a handful of runners, all the new ones/uncooperative ones always end up dead, and they weren't the ones deserting. If you were in my shoes, seeing what I saw, you'd truly know why my grudge have stayed and stuck with me for so long.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 22, 2015, 08:04:17 AM
It's perfectly reasonable to expect leaders to be able to disconnect actual playtimes from IC presence/competence. Especially in clans with strict schedules, it doesn't make sense for them to penalize you for hiatus or being off-peak. If they want to say they won't promote you on time because your character isn't ready, that only works if the character is actually not ready.
I'd say talk to your clan staff, but personally I'd just store or quit the clan depending on what makes sense for the character. Even if I could get the staff on my side, the leader has made it clear he and I don't see eye to eye on how certain things should be played. The earlier the divorce, the happier.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 22, 2015, 08:13:25 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 22, 2015, 08:04:17 AM
It's perfectly reasonable to expect leaders to be able to disconnect actual playtimes from IC presence/competence. Especially in clans with strict schedules, it doesn't make sense for them to penalize you for hiatus or being off-peak. If they want to say they won't promote you on time because your character isn't ready, that only works if the character is actually not ready.
I'd say talk to your clan staff, but personally I'd just store or quit the clan depending on what makes sense for the character. Even if I could get the staff on my side, the leader has made it clear he and I don't see eye to eye on how certain things should be played. The earlier the divorce, the happier.
I completely agree and I hope staff would start enforcing this on the leadership sponsored roles. I've been in two leadership roles and I have never, ever put anyone down just because I don't see them. Furthermore, if they say they can do it (regardless of their skill), I let them do it. And I truly, truly try to give things for my minions to do stuff, even if it's something stupid like climb a tree to pluck 50 fruits for me over the span of a RL week. If they fail or succeed, it is then up to me to react as a leader to it.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 22, 2015, 08:17:16 AM
I literally put my off peakers in Tor on a separate path and removed some of their restrictions. Still put into the unit, still under the same command, but hey...I want you to do this scout mission for me. This is a solo mission. I need this done. It's a solo mission. While I couldn't really -promote- them to be leaders since they generally weren't over anyone, just making some little amounts of 'give' in certain things seemed to work very well.
What you have described as an issue is something that is not very common, at least from what I have seen. There have been times where staff members have needed sponsored leadership roles that were peak-time players because they were replacing dead/stored peak-time leaders. If the clan is already primed for that, it is usually deemed better for the clan to replace like for like. That's not to say that off-peak players are shunned for sponsored roles, merely that this can be a factor.
Promotional opportunities are largely the purview of the playerbase, though staff is involved to some extent. If you are never around when your clan leader is, this could be an issue. If you are never around when your clan is, this is an issue. Provided the latter is not the case, you can play with your other clanmates and they can indeed vouch for your presence and activity and usefulness to a clan leader that they do see. You can also do a monthly report to let staff know you're around. Someone being seriously tapped or seriously interested in leadership would make that known to staff and to their leadership in-game.
Unfortunately, presence does not necessitate that you become a leader. There must be a position available. Staff and PC leaders also ask several questions that have nothing to do with off-peak play: Can the clan use another leader? Does staff agree? Is the PC actually leadership material, or are they expecting to become a leader because the rest of the clan fell off of the Shield Wall? Are there reasons the PC would have this denied to them? Has the PC actually earned it? Do they play enough to be a leader (not off peak vs peak play, but actual playtime--some does need to exist)? Can the clan and game handle an expansion of size with this particular clanned group?
After all of that is answered to satisfaction, next would be the question: when do they play? This isn't a question asked to deny them, but one to consider possibilities. Some clans can benefit from having an off-peak presence, because all of the above has been met. I can't think of a case off of the top of my head where someone was denied an IC leadership promotion solely because of their peak vs off-peak playtimes.
Thanks for your response Nyr.
I have no qualms or problems with players off peak or on peak gaining their PC leadership sponsored roles. I being an off peak and I have applied for a silk role and even played it before somewhere in the distant lands was overrun by stuff and closed officially.
But I will have to make it clear that I have been denied because I was playing off peak(Troopers are semi leadership roles anyway imo) and I have done everything that I could to staff and IG that I was around and serious. If you need more information, I'm pretty sure staff can see who is the first PC that I created on his account.
It has happened and it happened to me personally. Although there was a PC plot going along, I saw it no logical reason for previous PC leaders to make the basis of denying me because I was off peak.
There are so many things that go into the equation before that point that it would more than likely be disingenuous to suggest that you were denied for that reason. Even here you say "although there was a PC plot going on". That indicates to me that it seems like a factor--if not, why mention it? You also add that you saw no logical IC reason to deny your PC, but other PCs don't have to agree with your logic.
I don't know because I am not going to look into your account history and discuss that here. If you want to discuss that, the request tool would be the place for it.
As I started revving all of this up was because I was thinking about those other off peaks who genuinely do not get a chance of promotion -because- of the timezone difference. I am sharing some of my experiences which was and will always be terrible to me personally. So don't put the main focus on me.
However there are players out there who might not be as fortunate or unfortunate as me to have another PC to cause my PC's denial of promotion and being forced to leave the Byn, I still think it's incredibly toxic to even do something to another player even if it was an IC thing, to me it felt rude but this things of backstabbing happens all the time in the office. So I have nothing to comment on that.
What I would want to know is how is the staff going to assimilate off peak and on peak together? How can we be less dead weight to each other now that we've got everyone mostly situated in Allanak and condensing the player base. The off peak is a smaller number, but we're still players here.
I'll also put it into perspective just for you Nyr. At that current time and moment to me it seemed like it WAS because of my off peak that I was denied. It was only after some kind player who decided to spill the beans to me OOC after so many years that I got to know that it was because of IC actions and decisions that caused me so much OOC agony and grief. I spent so much effort and time, and it's all being denied because IC plot and that leaves me pretty much trapped.
And this has brought me to think about what if these other off peakers where subjected to not getting the same kind of leadership and generally, staff will always point them to the peak PC.
As you have said no one has ever been denied IC leadership, as long as nothing OOC is in the issue. I'm just hoping this thread would help to make the gameplay for the off peaks much more interesting so that leader PCs could get creative and help alleviate some of our pains and restrictions.
What's in store for those who are off peak and in clans? Same same and entirely up to the leader PCs?
I would like to see more clans have role calls for off peak leadership positions specifically.
Will that leader end up playing alone more often than not? Probably so. But, is that leader being played by someone who is an off peak player anyways who probably would have been playing alone anyways? Probably so.
I don't see how it is really a loss. If anything there is a measurable gain in that off peak players will feel more like it is in their hands to decide how well they do.
Peak time clan leaders can also now tell the off peak players, "I don't have space in my unit for someone who's going to be as unavailable for the things that matter right now. You should speak with Sergeant Awwfpeek, they are around more during the week when you are anyways and you would be more useful to them.".
I wrote up a post earlier about those who are off-peak and in clans. There does not appear to be a real problem with this; you can get promoted if you are off-peak, if there's good reason for your PC to be promoted. If you are in such a situation that you feel you are being denied
because you are off-peak, then open up a request to discuss with your clan staff.
We do not have and will not create rules against players being mean IC; in fact, the opposite is the case.
Quote from: the rules2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even
free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if
you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean
only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at
the end of their careers.
3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of. The sole
exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
both in "help consent" and in point 6, below.
5. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
See point 2 above.
I remember I got upset a couple times for something like this. Looking back on it after playing a leader role, I realize I got upset for the wrong reasons, at the wrong people. There's really nobody you can be upset with for this. It's not the leaderships fault, at least not in my case. They hardly knew me, only had a handful of interactions with me. I still expected to get promoted, but is that at all realistic? Could they have found out about me, asked the other people if I was worthy of advancement, tried to look past the fact that they barely knew me and promoted me anyways? Sure, and that probably wouldn't have been a big deal, but it would take some leaps of logic, and hand-waving away the ooc nature of time-zones.
But blaming leadership for the situation in general was wrong because they were put in a tough spot just like I was based on my playtimes. It's not like leaders don't want off-peak players. Fuck, just the idea of players around to spread the burden of interaction you feel as a leader is enough incentive to keep promoting and recruiting. It's just that they also have to take realism into consideration, and if a leader doesn't know you, they have no reason to trust you. And if you promote based on trust, well, that's going to leave some people shit out of luck sometimes.
That's probably something that I will have some problem against. I feel that it would be an issue as it reflects on timezone difference.
Where is the compromise?
Retcon offpeakers, restrict accounts to only making rangers.
I never really play offpeak, except that I might play later. Maybe things will change for me. But I've known some PCs that are just hard to find, or play in a different time than me. It gets really annoying just to find them, and half the time they're linkdead or idling.
That said, I can't imagine I would tell someone "You can't have this basic promotion because I never see you". When I was in the Legions, there was a PC that was basically a ForeverPrivate, because they logged in for planned activities but thats the only time we'd see them. I can't imagine ever giving them a leadership position, but when you're a recruit for 3 years, its kind of suspect. I'm still hoping what was seen, was a one time thing. Not everyone is great as a leader, and I've seen some people get a leadership position that is -highly- undeserved but given due to how staff recruit. (I knew the person OOCly, and they were relatively bland and never emoted beyond socials, and got a sponsored role)
tl;dr - Boo to naysayers about offpeak. Everyone is in one city now, all the clans are there. If you, nor anyone you know sees your boss... you're probably in the wrong clan anyways. There has to be a separation between "This is where my character would be" and "I'm literally unable to interact with my clan in any way".
Off peak has been pretty-somewhat-healthy in allanak from what I've seen, since the change. Off peak leadership might not be a bad idea, once more of the offpeakers who are indy due to their offpeakness die and migrate in.
I mean...I know you guys just *cringe* at 15-20 people, but that's like...what I played with for a large amount of early Arm time, and that was without consolidation. It's really not so bad, once you get a nice little group of people together.
A good suggestion in any case would be to play in a clan where you have visibility to leadership (either directly, or through other players in the clan that do see you about) and to staff (this requires putting in requests).
If you never see your leader, that is a problem, but most clans have multiple leaders. You'll probably be able to see one of them, at least every now and then, to have them talk to you and you to them. If you never see any leaders, that's a problem, but you can definitely still play with the rest of the clan. Show that you are active and involved (check in threads, etc). If you never see most people in your clan, that's a larger problem; you might need to find a different clan to play in. Riev mentioned how everyone is in one city right now, and that's pretty much the case. There's definitely a lot more off-peak activity, and most of that should be able to be found in Allanak. It may take a bit more time for the clans in-game to catch up with that, but that's okay--we've barely had Tuluk completely closed for a month. You will probably see more offpeak-tailored roles available in the future purely because more off-peak people are playing around each other there.
As RGS said above, the leader may not know what you are doing if they don't see you about. That isn't insurmountable: you can try to arrange a meeting with them IC, or failing that, talk to your staff; the leader can also talk to their clan staff about it. This isn't really a bad thing or unusual, I've seen this happen and I have been in a leadership position to help this out for recruits I did not see regularly. Let's say you are in Kurac and you are a recruit and need to be promoted to Mercenary because you've been there the requisite time. You shouldn't remain a recruit forever. If you are indeed playing regularly and involved with the clan, you should be able to be promoted.
This can be resolved with communication. If there is nothing IC stopping you from it and it is truly just a problem of timezone mismatches, it can be resolved.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 22, 2015, 10:55:25 AM
That's probably something that I will have some problem against. I feel that it would be an issue as it reflects on timezone difference.
Where is the compromise?
Have a heart-to-heart chat with the clan recruiter, Icly explain when your character is likely to be around and if there will be opportunities given that? If the clan lead can't get the hint, well, that's unfortunate. Be sure to pick a clan with a clan lead (however short lived they might wind up being) that has folks you can play with, I think clans have a huge advantage with the clan boards and roll-calls to figure when folks are and aren't around and plan accordingly.
Clan RPTs will all ways be a PitA, so prep a role for yourself, as was mentioned elsewhere that might be viable as clan spy, reconnaissance specialist, or infiltrator that way during off-peak you can do your work to lay the groundwork for the rest of the clan.
And clan leads get creative on how you can keep an off-peaker busy in your clan. Not an easy ask, but something that should be possible, I think? At least some of the time?
The thing is, the T'zai Byn's schedule is rather oppressive, takes a lot out of you and leaves you little time for anything beyond grunting, sparring, sharpening your weapons and shovelling shit. As a runner, you are not afforded any privileges for deciding, ok, today, just this one time, I'd like to do X instead of Y. Further, you do not get paid, you cannot afford a private place for any, activities, you cannot buy drinks, you're lucky if your sergeant feels like giving you the coin for stable fees. It's a good place to train your character and meet others, as well as participate in large events, but after an IG year, it gets stifling and troublesome, especially for off-peak, who often times find themselves alone in the sparring hall or workshop, solo emoting.
Promotion to Trooper is kind of a big deal, but not so much because of the prestige or what have you, but because it offers you a chance to do some things that have been denied to you the past IG year. This going without stuff will eventually fatigue players who could just as easily be making a lot of coin crafting or salting, instead being broke as a joke, and, when passed up for the opportunity, yes, it's very irritating on an OOC level. May as well just leave. This leads to even fewer off-peak players in clans. If there were a status between Trooper and Runner, which would alleviate some of the burden, then this wouldn't be such a big deal. Half the time, there's no point in even walking to the Gaj, because you'll just have to turn around and come back as soon as you get there, leaving little time for interaction, or your duties of making the Byn's presence known and felt.
In that case, as an off-peak player, you may have more trouble playing in a clan where you get paid based on active participation on jobs. It's not impossible, but it will be more difficult to make ends meet if contracts often occur at times that are not conducive to your own time zone.
It would help a lot if there were some IC means for communication between the peak players and off-peak players. Leaders could receive reports from off-peakers and assign them duties. Maybe some NPCs could be intermediaries.
Off-peakers could have some coded support too. Maybe a migration of a certain sort of animal only happens during off-peak hours, for example, so off-peakers are the ones that have to be tasked with hunting them. Maybe sparring NPCs could appear only during off-peak hours.
If you're in a clan and you're having issues with peak/offpeak communication IC... you have your clan forum to try to arrange a time you can be together, and if you don't have another PC you can pass a message through, I think most clans actually have IC rumor boards that are very under-utilized? I remember the Salarri one hadn't been updated in years and it was accessible by anyone in the clan.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 22, 2015, 11:44:06 AM
If you're in a clan and you're having issues with peak/offpeak communication IC... you have your clan forum to try to arrange a time you can be together, and if you don't have another PC you can pass a message through, I think most clans actually have IC rumor boards that are very under-utilized? I remember the Salarri one hadn't been updated in years and it was accessible by anyone in the clan.
The clan boards aren't really meant for person-to-person communications, more like public notices.
I think you probably get a little bit more slack with the IC rumorboard than your "clan rumors" gdb thread. If it's something really urgent or important and you just can't get playtimes to coincide, bribe the barracks quartermaster to pass a message.
Or just implement a NPC message system. Why always the argument to change nothing? If what you're proposing worked well, there wouldn't be this problem with off-peakers.
Quote from: Nyr on May 22, 2015, 11:39:40 AM
In that case, as an off-peak player, you may have more trouble playing in a clan where you get paid based on active participation on jobs. It's not impossible, but it will be more difficult to make ends meet if contracts often occur at times that are not conducive to your own time zone.
Good point, still, if an off-peaker wants to play a gritty mercenary who's, not all wealthy, I think it would be nice to show them some consideration. It's certainly possible to make ends meet, somewhat, but you're not going to have a silo full of obsidian coins to go swimming in. Your food and water budget are off the table, the Byn provides some protection against the powers that be, so these are not expenses, easier to stretch your coin a ways. Also, if you have a crafting subguild, this can help, but having absolutely no wiggle room with the schedule is the issue. Saying, "This might not be the clan for you if your schedule doesn't match up exactly." doesn't exactly address the concern.
Still, I must admit, I've seen a number of off-peakers get promoted, it's just, harder. Harder to defend yourself from slander, lies, unrealistically easy for people to sabotage you, without other off-peak players, who have been promoted, who can actually stick up for your character because they know them.
Some of this might be from the problem of calling it off-peak or peak itself, cos there's different peaks for people in different timezones around the world - I think there's actually quite a lot of people not on American time from what I've seen, and though it's no doubt less, it's still it's own peak, even if it's not the highest. :)
I know changing language doesn't always change a culture1, but calling times that aren't America evening time "off peak", even with no malice intended, could maybe be reinforcing the idea that there is a "proper time for roleplay", with everything that isn't around that time then being seen as second-class/of less importance.
1 ( When I was brand new I found that sometimes the "wish all" thing would have no one replying, and outside of America times the website helper chat thing was no good with never anyone on it 2 - I don't know how much the staff timezones also reflect the playerbase but it could maybe be good to make sure there's enough people promoted to be staff to place equal value on roleplay in the other timezones as well :) it's own reward with these "peaks" growing more as they are watered and nurtured :) )
2 ( I also remember sometimes trying to ask things of people in the gaj etc about how to do things was met with a sense of 'go away' because asking things in OOC in public areas, even genuine newbie questions for help on how to respond to something for the roleplay, is "gently frowned upon" - but nowhere else to ask things if you don't know people to ask because you don't know anyone else that plays the game OOCly, some stuff you can find out IC but some things you can only really know if you know what you are meant to type and stuff and compared to roleplay on other things it is very technical and a lot of stuff has to be learnt OOC to know how the game itself works to be able to roleplay, some of which can distract a little from actually being able to write for stories! )
( I am a newbie that only within the last few weeks decided to try RP in this game again by the way :) )
If you want to take an extra day off, there are two solutions: ask permission or don't get caught. Please trust that your leaders do not want to punish you for your OOC schedule, they just want you to not be blatantly skipping your duties in front of a million vNPCs.
Quote from: Sorry on May 22, 2015, 12:38:48 PM
I don't know how much the staff timezones also reflect the playerbase but it could maybe be good to make sure there's enough people promoted to be staff to place equal value on roleplay in the other timezones as well
We do have lots of offpeak staffers, both because they live in far-flung corners of the world and/or because they don't have "normal" schedules. 0 Producers are offpeak (though they all have weird schedules!). 2 out of 3 Admins are offpeak. 3 out of 8 Storytellers are offpeak. So there are quite a few other staff that, for example, I do not see frequently--despite the fact that they are actively working on the game, just as I am.
An additional factor that may mean wishes go unanswered is that not all staff can or will reply to all wishes. Storytellers can only reply to wishes from PCs in their own clan group. This is why we have the request tool, so that you can get help even if you can't find a staffer in game at that moment. And the helper chat gets emailed to Helpers and staff if it goes unresponded to, so feel free to use it for questions.
The obvious solution here is to vote every day and continue to recruit people to play the MUD, until the difference between peak and off-peak is 200 players vs. 100 players.
Quote from: Cavaticus on May 22, 2015, 12:55:04 PM
The obvious solution here is to vote every day and continue to recruit people to play the MUD, until the difference between peak and off-peak is 200 players vs. 100 players.
200 players would be awesome.
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 22, 2015, 12:53:47 PM
If you want to take an extra day off, there are two solutions: ask permission or don't get caught. Please trust that your leaders do not want to punish you for your OOC schedule, they just want you to not be blatantly skipping your duties in front of a million vNPCs.
I'm aware of this. Most of the time, there's no one to ask for permission. It also doesn't happen with the frequency with which it's perceived to, I worry vNPCs, NPCs and/or PCs reporting things may assume it IS, and may report incorrect, slanderous, potentially disasterous information, which can't really be contested and no one can stick up for the off-peak players because there's not enough people around. Staff can't be there all the time, nor can other PCs, and it may be a logical assumption that if you see it once, it's happening all the time, but it's just that, an assumption. There's also the trouble that there's really nowhere to go where you're not surrounded by a million vNPCs, being a broke-ass runner.
Having played many PCs, who were rather dutiful but occasionally slacked off (I mean, it's only natural to say, you know what, fuck it, I'm taking the day off every once in a while), I can say I have not encountered this issue very frequently. I have seen others encounter it before, however, and I think acting with a lack of information can be quite harmful to the enjoyment of the game for others. This is fine, there's no responsibility to make things perfect for everyone all the time, but simply, off-peak players are specifically more vulnerable to these kinds of tactics and perceptions.
I think, at times, we, as human beings, have a tendency to focus on the negatives of another person's actions, and sometimes have a lack of gratitude toward the positives. I do it myself, but I'm aware of that and try to limit it. Weaknesses are highly important to be aware of, strengths, however, should also be taken into account, and sometimes, it's easy to miss the intangible benefits that another person may provide. I know I've done it myself. While IC it's perfectly fine, and perhaps should be encouraged at times, to make these mistakes, IRL I like to hold myself to a higher standard as far as adjusting my perceptions. I have to, otherwise, I'd be a terrible, terrible person.
I'm not sure what you are complaining about here.
Your complaint is off-peak players who's characters slack off get treated worse than peak-time players who's characters slack off and you don't like that?
As a frequent player of leaders, I've had several offpeak minions that I rarely ever see. There are a couple of things good offpeak minions do to bridge the gap:
1) Reporting their doings to minions that I DO see regularly and DO report to me often. This is extremely valuable, if there's a minion available that bridges the gap.
The one IC hangup I could see is that that as a private-rank-type you might not thinking about reporting to another private-rank person... but this happens all the time in real life. I quite frequently ask my boss's secretary to tell my boss things. I'd consider us of about the same rank, but she happens to talk to him on the phone more than I do.
2) Make sure to report regularly when you know your playtimes might overlap with mine, like on weekends. Sending me a PM asking if I'm going to be available early Saturday afternoon or whatever is two thumbs up (just no IC info please).
3) Arrange for meetings on the clan boards.
4) See if I'm available by appointment. Especially if I've posted a million times that I'm available by appointment. I've gotten up at 5:30 am on a couple Saturdays to take reports.
I can't speak for other leaders, or the experiences of off-peak players, but I'm willing to work with off-peak players that are willing to work with me. I've never fired or refused to promote someone because they play off-peak. I have fired people, both on peak and off peak, that aren't doing what I need them to be doing. At a minimum, I need to hear from other people that they're around and doing things and not dead or stored.
Quote from: Desertman on May 22, 2015, 03:12:20 PM
I'm not sure what you are complaining about here.
Your complaint is off-peak players who's characters slack off get treated worse than peak-time players who's characters slack off and you don't like that?
The thing is, it could possibly be an exaggeration or an outright lie (intentional or unintintional), depending on the source of the information. I've seen similar things happen before, to Senseofeven. I might have avenged it *whistles innocently*. The thing I don't like is off-peak players being more vulnerable to gossip and slander. I get it, the game world isn't meant to be fair, but when you sacrifice so much time and effort again and again, and it goes unappreciated or worse, causes offense, this can affect the morale of the player OOC. I really didn't appreciate this vulnerability being exploited when, realistically, there would be off-peak NPCs and vNPCs to speak up for them, but it rarely happens. Because I've been observed doing my job even when nobody's around, being only slightly off peak (east coast), I've gotten some praise and encouragement from leader characters. People see my characters around, they get to interact with them, have a better awareness of their personality and characteristics. Off peak players don't get this so much, and so, if someone gets a wild hair up their butt, this can be a very vulnerable point.
It begs the question, does RL really come first? Would you take it out on a player because something happened while they had to get up to prevent a toddler having an accident, or maybe they're an EMT and on call 24/7? I don't think you would, but some would, unconsciously, allow it to affect their perception of the character and the player. I understand Zalanthas doesn't work on a merit system, typically, but rather on favoritism and birthright. While this isn't true of all organizations and can vary with leadership, I strongly believe we should be looking for ways to make the game more fun to players, and less stifling to interaction. The rules for Runners are typically a bit heavy-handed. I understand with organizations like Salarr and Kadius, dependent on leadership, this may not always be the case for their recruits, it's no secret the food is better.
Me I make plenty of mistakes, and I try to roll with them. I'm not debating this for my sake, I'm debating it for the sake of off-peak players. If we can make the game a little more fun and user-friendly to offset the disadvantages they face, I think this could help with player retention within their timezones. This is simply my opinion, but I do sense it could drive some players, who genuinely want to play the game the way it was meant to be played, away. Have you ever logged in, typed who, saw, oh, seven to nine people playing, and said, naaa, and logged back out? I have, sometimes I don't. Some of these off-peak players are genuinely fun to play with, and while I could be doing something else with my time, I instead try to alot some time for interacting with them. There's more now, depending what day it is, not saying I had anything (or much) to do with it. Anyone else care to help? If we're going to penalize off-peakers for not being in our timezones, then why don't we try playing in theirs and see how we like it?
The way I would handle it if I was a leader would be to coordinate through ic boards of possible to give the guy who plays at 4am shit to do and utilize the gdb for that as well, for all my people.
This way joe hunter who has an outlet to report that he brought in x amount of y and stored it in z. Giving the leader a chance to checkup and know what joe is doing while I'm sleeping. Then after such a time, I could promote joe to first hunter of my evil syndicate and joe hunter has some recognition.
The staff is reasonable and I don't think they would mind a bit of board interaction for these folks that can't make peak everyday. Ultimately we want to all have fun and play together and I don't think staff would try and stop you from making it work with the offpeak crowd.
Quote from: Revenant on May 22, 2015, 06:45:53 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 22, 2015, 03:12:20 PM
I'm not sure what you are complaining about here.
Your complaint is off-peak players who's characters slack off get treated worse than peak-time players who's characters slack off and you don't like that?
The thing is, it could possibly be an exaggeration or an outright lie (intentional or unintintional), depending on the source of the information. I've seen similar things happen before, to Senseofeven. I might have avenged it *whistles innocently*. The thing I don't like is off-peak players being more vulnerable to gossip and slander. I get it, the game world isn't meant to be fair, but when you sacrifice so much time and effort again and again, and it goes unappreciated or worse, causes offense, this can affect the morale of the player OOC. I really didn't appreciate this vulnerability being exploited when, realistically, there would be off-peak NPCs and vNPCs to speak up for them, but it rarely happens. Because I've been observed doing my job even when nobody's around, being only slightly off peak (east coast), I've gotten some praise and encouragement from leader characters. People see my characters around, they get to interact with them, have a better awareness of their personality and characteristics. Off peak players don't get this so much, and so, if someone gets a wild hair up their butt, this can be a very vulnerable point.
It begs the question, does RL really come first? Would you take it out on a player because something happened while they had to get up to prevent a toddler having an accident, or maybe they're an EMT and on call 24/7? I don't think you would, but some would, unconsciously, allow it to affect their perception of the character and the player. I understand Zalanthas doesn't work on a merit system, typically, but rather on favoritism and birthright. While this isn't true of all organizations and can vary with leadership, I strongly believe we should be looking for ways to make the game more fun to players, and less stifling to interaction. The rules for Runners are typically a bit heavy-handed. I understand with organizations like Salarr and Kadius, dependent on leadership, this may not always be the case for their recruits, it's no secret the food is better.
Me I make plenty of mistakes, and I try to roll with them. I'm not debating this for my sake, I'm debating it for the sake of off-peak players. If we can make the game a little more fun and user-friendly to offset the disadvantages they face, I think this could help with player retention within their timezones. This is simply my opinion, but I do sense it could drive some players, who genuinely want to play the game the way it was meant to be played, away. Have you ever logged in, typed who, saw, oh, seven to nine people playing, and said, naaa, and logged back out? I have, sometimes I don't. Some of these off-peak players are genuinely fun to play with, and while I could be doing something else with my time, I instead try to alot some time for interacting with them. There's more now, depending what day it is, not saying I had anything (or much) to do with it. Anyone else care to help? If we're going to penalize off-peakers for not being in our timezones, then why don't we try playing in theirs and see how we like it?
I also find this mildly disconcerting. Something that may have happened quite a long time ago IC, is still being projected onto you by on-peakers, because that's the last thing they remember you 'doing'.
Even though the reality is:
1) you are not logging in often, if at all, to 'do' that thing people give you crap for
2) when you are logged in, it's certainly not interacting with on-peak people or the ones who have complaints about you(so how can they know what's actually going on?)
2) That thing is no longer a 'thing' but a series of assumptions that continues to grow, because they aren't interacting with you regularly to form an accurate idea of your PCs behaviour.
I'm not really sure what you're expecting, or if the issues you're talking about happen anywhere near enough for it to be a topic of general discussion instead of something that's dealt with on a case by case basis through staff communication.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 07:26:19 PM
I'm not really sure what you're expecting, or if the issues you're talking about happen anywhere near enough for it to be a topic of general discussion instead of something that's dealt with on a case by case basis through staff communication.
I hope they don't. It was quite distressing. What I'm hoping is that people don't always pick the easiest, most efficient way to accomplish a goal that's harmful to someone else without considering the realities, that's like, not wishing up, going into a camp, and slaughtering the NPCs, then never sending a report. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Quote from: valeria on May 22, 2015, 05:01:41 PM
As a frequent player of leaders, I've had several offpeak minions that I rarely ever see. There are a couple of things good offpeak minions do to bridge the gap:
1) Reporting their doings to minions that I DO see regularly and DO report to me often. This is extremely valuable, if there's a minion available that bridges the gap.
The one IC hangup I could see is that that as a private-rank-type you might not thinking about reporting to another private-rank person... but this happens all the time in real life. I quite frequently ask my boss's secretary to tell my boss things. I'd consider us of about the same rank, but she happens to talk to him on the phone more than I do.
2) Make sure to report regularly when you know your playtimes might overlap with mine, like on weekends. Sending me a PM asking if I'm going to be available early Saturday afternoon or whatever is two thumbs up (just no IC info please).
3) Arrange for meetings on the clan boards.
4) See if I'm available by appointment. Especially if I've posted a million times that I'm available by appointment. I've gotten up at 5:30 am on a couple Saturdays to take reports.
I can't speak for other leaders, or the experiences of off-peak players, but I'm willing to work with off-peak players that are willing to work with me. I've never fired or refused to promote someone because they play off-peak. I have fired people, both on peak and off peak, that aren't doing what I need them to be doing. At a minimum, I need to hear from other people that they're around and doing things and not dead or stored.
The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly. They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then? That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving.
Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game. I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly. They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then? That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving.
Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game. I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.
I never shied away from recruiting off-peakers. Coincidentally (or not) I had a few instances like this crop up, where it was OffPeak vs Peak and I didn't know who was being the fuck up. In those cases, I always asked staff for an intelligence report from hopefully neutral sources (like VNPCs) to try and get some idea of what was actually happening.
I should have just gone with my gut and killed everyone involved, every time.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 22, 2015, 08:00:50 PM
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly. They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then? That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving.
Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game. I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.
I never shied away from recruiting off-peakers. Coincidentally (or not) I had a few instances like this crop up, where it was OffPeak vs Peak and I didn't know who was being the fuck up. In those cases, I always asked staff for an intelligence report from hopefully neutral sources (like VNPCs) to try and get some idea of what was actually happening.
I should have just gone with my gut and killed everyone involved, every time.
This is so much more common than I wish it was.
Asking for VNPC feedback is definitely a good way to handle that situation.
But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc. Sometimes killing minions actually leaves you at a loss.
Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.
I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?
Quote from: Is Friday on May 22, 2015, 08:21:59 PM
Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.
Less minions = less information. Knowledge is power, especially when it comes from consistent and reliable sources. Loyalty can't be bought(only rented).
Depending on the specific role, the irony is your leader is quite useless without good minions(this is especially true for nobles).
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 08:25:04 PM
I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?
Actually, it is their fault. If something undesirable happens to a leader, they can only blame themselves for placing trust in the wrong areas. So not sure where you are going with that!
(http://i.imgur.com/XZJxeN1.gif)
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on May 22, 2015, 08:21:59 PM
Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.
Less minions = less information. Knowledge is power, especially when it comes from consistent and reliable sources. Loyalty can't be bought(only rented).
Depending on the specific role, the irony is your leader is quite useless without good minions(this is especially true for nobles).
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 08:25:04 PM
I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?
Actually, it is their fault. If something undesirable happens to a leader, they can only blame themselves for placing trust in the wrong areas. So not sure where you are going with that!
It really isn't their fault that you don't log in enough or at the right times for them to trust you more than someone who does.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 08:50:11 PM
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on May 22, 2015, 08:21:59 PM
Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.
Less minions = less information. Knowledge is power, especially when it comes from consistent and reliable sources. Loyalty can't be bought(only rented).
Depending on the specific role, the irony is your leader is quite useless without good minions(this is especially true for nobles).
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 08:25:04 PM
I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?
Actually, it is their fault. If something undesirable happens to a leader, they can only blame themselves for placing trust in the wrong areas. So not sure where you are going with that!
It really isn't their fault that you don't log in enough or at the right times for them to trust you more than someone who does.
At what point in my post did I blame the leader? Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.
The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones ;) )
I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.
Two suggestions:
1. Now that we have only one major city, and since templars are so so critical for bringing the city together, raise the cap on the number of templars and try really hard to have at least one templar primarily offpeak. These roles are just so vital fot crime RP, gemmed RP, and soldier RP that assuring they're always available keeps the city going.
2. Have staffers post up their playtimes! Offpeak players can see which staffers on which teams are offpeak like them and make characters that will enhance their ability to be seen by staff and awarded karma for it!! :)
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly. They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then? That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving.
To which I say: welcome to Armageddon. ;)
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 22, 2015, 09:08:29 PM
The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones ;) )
I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.
Crazy is only based on what you're hearing from your on-peak recruit. So actually, you may become the fuckup for believing a story that isn't true. :)
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:55:14 PM
At what point in my post did I blame the leader? Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.
Do you mean less recently than when you said;
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Actually, it is their fault.
It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:16:49 PM
But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.
Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 09:16:20 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 22, 2015, 09:08:29 PM
The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones ;) )
I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.
Crazy is only based on what you're hearing from your on-peak recruit. So actually, you may become the fuckup for believing a story that isn't true. :)
This is suggesting a leaders motivations are based only on hearsay. And not a whole lot of other things. Maybe they just don't give a fuck about your side of the story.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:17:23 PM
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:55:14 PM
At what point in my post did I blame the leader? Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.
Do you mean less recently than when you said;
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Actually, it is their fault.
It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:16:49 PM
But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.
Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.
Please read the original post you quoted. Also, just some free advice: if you quote a prior post, isolating a single statement and removing the rest of it can transform the context of the message entirely. Sorry if you are reading into it the wrong way.
As an observation, you seem to be blaming people for talking about this in the GDB. GDB is general discussion. Disagreeing with people's opinions is fine, but that doesn't make them any less true or valid.
Most people aren't going to believe the word of only one guy. They'll probably made a decision based on prior experienced with the persons in question.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 09:20:06 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:17:23 PM
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:55:14 PM
At what point in my post did I blame the leader? Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.
Do you mean less recently than when you said;
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Actually, it is their fault.
It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:16:49 PM
But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.
Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.
Please read the original post you quoted. Also, just some free advice: if you quote a prior post, isolating a single statement and removing the rest of it can transform the context of the message entirely. Sorry if you are reading into it the wrong way.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:17:23 PM
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:55:14 PM
At what point in my post did I blame the leader? Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.
Do you mean less recently than when you said;
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Actually, it is their fault.
It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 08:16:49 PM
But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.
Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 09:16:20 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 22, 2015, 09:08:29 PM
The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones ;) )
I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.
Crazy is only based on what you're hearing from your on-peak recruit. So actually, you may become the fuckup for believing a story that isn't true. :)
This is suggesting a leaders motivations are based only on hearsay. And not a whole lot of other things. Maybe they just don't give a fuck about your side of the story.
Well let's be honest, some of it probably is the leaders fault, they may be a new leader, may not know how they are coming off, lots of stuff requires two way communication. Just like if your gf/bf is doing something that pisses you off or makes you feel bad and you don't ever correct them. How do you expect them to get better?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:17:23 PM
Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.
To bring things back on topic, this thread is about being off-peak.
So, you're basically asserting it's the off-peak player's fault that they don't share a timezone with their templar/sergeant/noble, therefore the lack of trust is the minion's fault?
Any leg you were trying to stand on in this conversation just walked out from under you.
I read and understood what you wrote just fine. I didn't rip your posts out of context. It's just your context seems to be changing with each new post.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 22, 2015, 09:22:00 PM
Well let's be honest, some of it probably is the leaders fault, they may be a new leader, may not know how they are coming off, lots of stuff requires two way communication. Just like if your gf/bf is doing something that pisses you off or makes you feel bad and you don't ever correct them. How do you expect them to get better?
We're talking about the inability to communicate in general though. There is no "getting better" when it comes to log-in times. You either try to log in closer to the majority, or you don't. You either try to arrange a time for you and your leader to meet, or you don't. Both of those things require action on the underlings part before the leader can respond.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 09:26:26 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:17:23 PM
Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.
To bring things back on topic, this thread is about being off-peak.
So, you're basically asserting it's the off-peak player's fault that they don't share a timezone with their templar/sergeant/noble, therefore the lack of trust is the minion's fault?
Any leg you were trying to stand on in this conversation just walked out from under you.
I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.
Wait a damn minute...
So you're saying that because they don't want to play Arm, a game, a text based game, at 4am or 2am in the morning for them, because it happens to be 9pm here in EST that they are at fault?
Nobody, and I repeat nobody that plays this game should have rearrange real life to suit anyone, staff, player, leader, sorcerer king, anyone.
Because at the end of the day RL>Any game.
Instead of throwing fault on some poor European (or some other far off land) player, why don't we make strides to accommodate them because we want them to play this game and have fun?
Quote from: Asmoth on May 22, 2015, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.
Wait a damn minute...
So you're saying that because they don't want to play Arm, a game, a text based game, at 4am or 2am in the morning for them, because it happens to be 9pm here in EST that they are at fault?
Nobody, and I repeat nobody that plays this game should have rearrange real life to suit anyone, staff, player, leader, sorcerer king, anyone.
Because at the end of the day RL>Any game.
Instead of throwing fault on some poor European (or some other far off land) player, why don't we make strides to accommodate them because we want them to play this game and have fun?
First, that quote is not saying the underling is to blame, it's saying
if anyone is to blame it's the underling. Second, you just literally quoted me saying it doesn't matter who's at fault, but that it's still on the offpeak player to fix the situation. Do you agree or disagree with that? Or are we going to keep trying to twist my argument to sound like I'm saying it's your fault for being a black man born in Mississippi pre 1960's.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.
Perhaps you didn't read my post where I said...
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game. I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
I read and understood what you wrote just fine. I didn't rip your posts out of context. It's just your context seems to be changing with each new post.
All signs point to you not really reading what I said, but I can explain for you again in clearer terms. Leadership PCs are sponsored roles. The point of a sponsored role is to enrich the clan experience for other PCs, that's why you apply for it. It's not a lot to expect to try and check in with minions, if it means logging in at a strange time once in a while, or scheduling a mini-RPT meeting.
Leaders should be, by definition, more proactive and aware of their clans schedules and making a point of reaching out. To even suggest that the average player, or even new player is in the wrong is frankly, ridiculous.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:54:24 PM
First, that quote is not saying the underling is to blame, it's saying if anyone is to blame it's the underling. Second, you just literally quoted me saying it doesn't matter who's at fault, but that it's still on the offpeak player to fix the situation. Do you agree or disagree with that? Or are we going to keep trying to twist my argument to sound like I'm saying it's your fault for being a black man born in Mississippi pre 1960's.
The leader is the leader because they are expected to LEAD.
I couldn't go to any of my bosses in any past job and say, "Hey, I need to be promoted and should be, because I talked to you about it." But a good boss would address that with me and ask me where I see myself in X years.
I can't force my boss to take action, my boss has to inspire me to take action.
It's totally on the leader in my opinion.
Haven't seen Joe the hunter since you hired him a RL month ago, but know he's still there. You can't fault Joe the hunter for doing his job as asked for a RL month but not making time to come on at 4am in the morning to give you an update.
You should be staying up till 4am one day to check on on Joe, if you're that pressed, if you're not, then you don't care about Joe and not caring about Joe is wrong.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 10:02:02 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.
Perhaps you didn't read my post where I said...
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game. I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
I read and understood what you wrote just fine. I didn't rip your posts out of context. It's just your context seems to be changing with each new post.
All signs point to you not really reading what I said, but I can explain for you again in clearer terms. Leadership PCs are sponsored roles. The point of a sponsored role is to enrich the clan experience for other PCs, that's why you apply for it. It's not a lot to expect to try and check in with minions, if it means logging in at a strange time once in a while, or scheduling a mini-RPT meeting.
Leaders should be, by definition, more proactive and aware of their clans schedules and making a point of reaching out. To even suggest that the average player, or even new player is in the wrong is frankly, ridiculous.
Leadership pc's are not all sponsored. Saying leadership players have to cater to and enforce interactions with off-peakers is silly. How are they even supposed to know the player wants that if they're unwilling to come forward themselves. I can promise you there are quite a few players who definitely DON'T want that attention. Expecting the average players to have some personal responsibility for their own fun really isn't asking too much. But expecting leaders to try to cater to each and every player in their clan, even the ones who share no time-zones with them, without first expecting some sort of request from the underling... Now that's ridiculous.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 22, 2015, 10:05:43 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 09:54:24 PM
First, that quote is not saying the underling is to blame, it's saying if anyone is to blame it's the underling. Second, you just literally quoted me saying it doesn't matter who's at fault, but that it's still on the offpeak player to fix the situation. Do you agree or disagree with that? Or are we going to keep trying to twist my argument to sound like I'm saying it's your fault for being a black man born in Mississippi pre 1960's.
The leader is the leader because they are expected to LEAD.
I couldn't go to any of my bosses in any past job and say, "Hey, I need to be promoted and should be, because I talked to you about it." But a good boss would address that with me and ask me where I see myself in X years.
I can't force my boss to take action, my boss has to inspire me to take action.
It's totally on the leader in my opinion.
Haven't seen Joe the hunter since you hired him a RL month ago, but know he's still there. You can't fault Joe the hunter for doing his job as asked for a RL month but not making time to come on at 4am in the morning to give you an update.
You should be staying up till 4am one day to check on on Joe, if you're that pressed, if you're not, then you don't care about Joe and not caring about Joe is wrong.
How you can expect a leader to do for you what you're unwilling to do for yourself will never make sense to me.
Heh, if I had an offpeak minion "demanding" that I stay up late to meet with them, I'd probably do it just so I could PK them. Fortunately I doubt someone that unreasonable really exists; certainly none of mine were like that. And if they do, I'd probably never recruit them.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 10:10:59 PM
Leadership pc's are not all sponsored. Saying leadership players have to cater to and enforce interactions with off-peakers is silly. How are they even supposed to know the player wants that if they're unwilling to come forward themselves. I can promise you there are quite a few players who definitely DON'T want that attention. Expecting the average players to have some personal responsibility for their own fun really isn't asking too much. But expecting leaders to try to cater to each and every player in their clan, even the ones who share no time-zones with them, without first expecting some sort of request from the underling... Now that's ridiculous.
I was going to preface the statement with
usually sponsored, but since we're going down that road:
This is about communication and roleplay, not about being the martyr for your entire clans personal fun. Nobody insisted leadership has to cater to players interactions. But here's the thing; if you are not interacting with your clan, you aren't really being an effective leader. Good leaders are always involved and have their hands in the pot. Some of the best PC leaders I've played with came to ask questions first, instead of waiting for their underlings to come to them.
You are assuming that minions actually -want- to report everything. Some things, they will keep to themselves for fear or uncertainty -- as a leader it's your job to actually pull it out of them(this has happened on several occasions and PCs). The leadership you're describing to me? It's lazy. Plain and simple.
If you find involving people and communicating with your off-peakers too much of a hassle for you, maybe you shouldn't be in your role?
tldr; Just because you are in a leadership role, doesn't mean you are actually acting like one.
Maybe. I prefer to play leadership roles that have goals (serve the state, serve the employer), and being your therapist is generally not one of them.
All I can say is I suggest you play a leader PC before talking about the pie-in-the-sky way you think leaders should behave.
Lol.
So skimming through the posts here. I've certainly come to terms that off peak players are going to be will be and anyway will be penalised in whichever and whatever the pc leaders fancy. Why? Because WELCOME TO ARMAGEDDON.
Do you really think that the off peak player would like that? It'll make them feel as how I have first posted on the thtead:
- Why should I even play this game when I'm going nowhere with my mundane?
- Why should I spend all time and effort to play and get somewhere?
- If I wanted to play a solo rpg there's always other games to go to.
And then I expect to be told, if you can't handle it, quit. Hmm?
Though note that I know many of the leader ig are great leaders because for a span of 3 months or so when I had no job? Things were peachy cause I was playing peak times. But now things are different and sometimes when serious slanderous rumors appear and it gets flung to you? Not appreciated because I see that as kinda... rude.
Not everyone would understand the troubles that off peak face. Sometimes we send a gdb pm and get no replies. Sometimes I had tried to relay a 'report' as an IC message/behind the scenes but thought again that it was poor form to do something like that because -it didn't happen IG so can't be taken in as IG-.
So how?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 10:28:40 PM
All I can say is I suggest you play a leader PC before talking about the pie-in-the-sky way you think leaders should behave.
I run and coordinate roleplay events for a group of 50 people on another game, with help from only 2 other people. That's roughly about the population of Arm in its entirety during peak hours, so I'm speaking from experience and not a far-flung ideal.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 22, 2015, 10:30:53 PM
So how?
Emails to clan staff and leaders. An attempt at finding hours on weekends or common days to get in there and make yourself known. Rumor board posts involving your offpeak hijinks. And, if you're really miffed about people spreading rumors about you, don't give them a reason to. I've played and seen numerous off-peak players who easily avoided confrontation within their clan. I've also been that person waiting 3 IC years for a promotion but cant quite get it due to conflicting times. It sucks but it's a reality of the game for someone who's unwilling to find other methods of communication like I just mentioned.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 10:34:45 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 10:28:40 PM
All I can say is I suggest you play a leader PC before talking about the pie-in-the-sky way you think leaders should behave.
I run and coordinate roleplay events for a group of 50 people on another game, with help from only 2 other people. That's roughly about the population of Arm in its entirety during peak hours, so I'm speaking from experience and not a far-flung ideal.
And you personally reach as an IC leader to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? You make specific time to log in in off-peak hours to help those players? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?
Unfortunately, sometimes you're going to have leaders who care less about off-peak enjoyment than others (which I don't condone). Your methods of reaching out to them seem fine to me, especially if they've ever said "available for appointments or something."
I'd suggest keeping up on the reports to staff. Them being kept in the know of what your character is actually doing is probably a big help when a PC-leader asks them what your character is doing, and whether there's any truth to rumors of shenanigans.
Also, apply for leadership! Some of the my favorite leaders (and staff) have been offpeak.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 10:41:15 PM
And you personally reach out to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?
Both when possible(listening and asking). But that volume of people can't be reached by a DM, which is why you get officers(leadership) to do that in their roles. Checking in with, maybe one off-peak player in your clan is easier than the amount of time it takes to post in this thread and have verbose debates.
What you're describing sounds more like things that would belong in the request tool for staff, rather than a clan lead.
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 10:41:15 PM
And you personally reach out to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?
Both when possible(listening and asking). But that volume of people can't be reached by a DM, which is why you get officers(leadership) to do that in their roles. Checking in with, maybe one off-peak player in your clan is easier than the amount of time it takes to post in this thread and have verbose debates.
What you're describing sounds more like things that would belong in the request tool for staff, rather than a clan lead.
I don't really find these situations comparable. An IC leader is not like a DM. But you reasoning makes a lot more sense if that's how you're expecting them to act.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 10:54:11 PM
Quote from: Tetra on May 22, 2015, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2015, 10:41:15 PM
And you personally reach out to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?
Both when possible(listening and asking). But that volume of people can't be reached by a DM, which is why you get officers(leadership) to do that in their roles. Checking in with, maybe one off-peak player in your clan is easier than the amount of time it takes to post in this thread and have verbose debates.
What you're describing sounds more like things that would belong in the request tool for staff, rather than a clan lead.
I don't really find these situations comparable. A IC leader is not like a DM. But you reasoning makes a lot more sense if that's how you're expecting them to act.
They're comparable in their disparity(an Arm clan leader is working with a small, occasionally moderate number of clan members, most of which will be on-peak), not in their functions. Obviously as a clan leader, you can't(and shouldn't, it's likely not appropriate IC) pseudo-roleplay a coddling session. You also can't OOCly consult your clan on their progress -- which again, is not a clan lead's responsibility but more of a staff role.
What you can do, however, is make tabs of minions you haven't interacted with. Are they dead? If not, what can they do to make themselves useful? You are paying their keep/putting them up, after all. There are a million ways you can look at it, but at the end of the day, your level of involvement benefits
you. If you want to outlive, outlast, outsmart, it's not going to happen without some due diligence.
I agree with all of that. Yay for, common ground.
From a leader POV, it's very difficult to know who's around off peak times vs inactive if you make no effort IC or OOC to get in touch with them. A lot of new hires don't come back, die, store, etc., particularly in a newbie-oriented clan like the Byn, and particularly in a large clan where not everyone announces their PC on the forums. Putting that onus on the leader is really very impractical. Leaders already spend a good chunk of time a week on reports, and unless you are a particularly excellent multitasker (which I am not) you can't play and write a report at the same time. Is more paperwork essentially what you want to add to their plate?
Honestly, lack of IC interaction is generally an IC problem that can be overcome by speaking to a higher-up off peak PC who /is/ in touch with leadership. Personally I would love to have an off-peak leader or pseudo-leader minion just to solve problems like this (and did at one point have one which seemed to keep the wheels greased for about a RL week), but obviously someone needs to be promotable to that before it can happen.
Negative consequences for IC actions taken like skipping the schedule (because it's off-peak and no leaders are around) are much more likely to happen because they'll be reported and because following the schedule is not something that /is/ rewarded. Additionally, off-peak activity is restricted from staff-side, because funner, more dangerous activities like going out and training outside the gates need to be led by proper leadership.
I personally have absolutely no desire to punish off-peak players for ICly skipping the schedule because nothing is going on. HOWEVER, if you're going to skip the schedule, at least be smart about it. Personally, I'd be happy to take 'Hey, can I take a few days off next week when things are slow to handle some personal business'-- which is something ICly accounted for by logout time anyway. I'd also be happy to not hear about it at all because your PC decided to skip the schedule somewhere other than the barracks or the Gaj.
I'm not seeing a whole lot of onus on leader PCs for what senseofeven was asking for.
Off-peak clannie who you know little about approaches you. Checking your info from the clan boards, you know that this PC has been in your clan for X IC years and is as such eligible for Y promotion.
You now have three choices:
- Promote them.
- Refuse and dump them from the clan.
- Refuse and maintain status quo.
Leaders have to bend their IC play to the OOC demands of leadership quite a bit, sure. But if it's so OOC important that you not promote this PC, then it's not expecting that much to ask you to come up with an IC reason that's better than a thinly veiled OOC complaint about their play times. It's actually probably far better in most cases to either just risk giving them promotion, or to force them out of the clan --either way, it's progression and a possibility of conflict, both of things which are Good Things
TM.
I do want to note that I think this problem is extraordinarily rare. I have been mostly offpeak since 2010 and I've only run into this problem once.
RGS, I usually agree with you, here I do not. I think you are showing little empathy for the people who struggle through clan-life with little to no recognition, which, I know we played together back then, you could be practicing some empathy, but you never even tried. You never even saw it was going on, and you were probably quite puzzled with the results because you, never bothered. I mean, your character wouldn't, this doesn't mean you wouldn't, but obviously, you didn't. There was much more to it than that, but this was a major concern to me. I'm not going to accuse you of having, oh, say, eight karma apathy, because, I know you play good characters, you play them well, and I love your mundanes. I don't like wading through this sewage because, see above, I really think some people are in the wrong.
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 22, 2015, 11:22:30 PM
From a leader POV, it's very difficult to know who's around off peak times vs inactive if you make no effort IC or OOC to get in touch with them. A lot of new hires don't come back, die, store, etc., particularly in a newbie-oriented clan like the Byn, and particularly in a large clan where not everyone announces their PC on the forums. Putting that onus on the leader is really very impractical. Leaders already spend a good chunk of time a week on reports, and unless you are a particularly excellent multitasker (which I am not) you can't play and write a report at the same time. Is more paperwork essentially what you want to add to their plate?
Honestly, lack of IC interaction is generally an IC problem that can be overcome by speaking to a higher-up off peak PC who /is/ in touch with leadership. Personally I would love to have an off-peak leader or pseudo-leader minion just to solve problems like this (and did at one point have one which seemed to keep the wheels greased for about a RL week), but obviously someone needs to be promotable to that before it can happen.
Negative consequences for IC actions taken like skipping the schedule (because it's off-peak and no leaders are around) are much more likely to happen because they'll be reported and because following the schedule is not something that /is/ rewarded. Additionally, off-peak activity is restricted from staff-side, because funner, more dangerous activities like going out and training outside the gates need to be led by proper leadership.
I personally have absolutely no desire to punish off-peak players for ICly skipping the schedule because nothing is going on. HOWEVER, if you're going to skip the schedule, at least be smart about it. Personally, I'd be happy to take 'Hey, can I take a few days off next week when things are slow to handle some personal business'-- which is something ICly accounted for by logout time anyway. I'd also be happy to not hear about it at all because your PC decided to skip the schedule somewhere other than the barracks or the Gaj.
For the Byn it's definitely a lot more hectic and impractical since people are constantly flinging themselves into the nearest death trap. But...
For Nobles and their Aides, there is usually some cap imposed on how many people they can employ. If those Aides are really being utilized to their full extent, that noble(if they're smart) is tapping into their intel and keeping in touch with them regularly. If one of them is off-peak and suspected dead, demand they report as soon as possible. It's in your power to do that, and why shouldn't you? Strategically speaking, any resource not being used that you are paying for, is a wasted one.
Beyond that, it serves the dual purpose of bringing that off-peak player into the fold and really integrating them into the group dynamic.
Alright, Aeglaeca, you made your point, all in favor of boycotiting the [redacted] say "aye". Because your argument does little to validate your position beyond making you look... well, civil discourse is important, but if you keep responding defensively, eventually I won't be able to stop myself, and then it'll look like a flame war, so please, stop being apathetic to everyone who isn't a part of your clone bounty hunter army.
Generally an off peak is left to their own devices and sometimes when a lowly runner goes to ask a higher off peak runner to help bridge communications to leadership then believe it all what they say? I think you're making a huge mistake because seeing how arm players are. Off peakers are going to get fucked. And sometimes leaders don't come down or wait to actually ask these off peakers about things if it's true or not.
Why? Cause it's pretty easy to say that pc leaders don't have to do that. And pretty much at tht mercy at all the mud slinging. How can you outlast when the powers that be don't account about you? And all that is mainly because you don't see them 90% of the time and even when you do, it's when you're going to bed.
As a pc leader before I have sent and reached out to player ooc to show in -MY- effort as a leader to those that I haven't seen ig. Sometimes I get replies and I understand these other players situation.
So don't assume that I don't know or never played a pc leader. And even writing reports as a mundane is not required from staff. How about those players who don't write as much or often? How can someone remember everything that hey have done during the week nor month? Summary is summary. And never had I asked staff about other players because I should try to find them out myself if all ic and ooc channels have been used.
How I see it of you are a leader is to always engage and put up fun role play and tasks for your minions. Even when there is nothing to do you even the simplest action of removing some restrictions would already make off peakers very happy.
I remember my templar granted my corporal free reign to led people out of the gates only on some conditions. But being the bored off peaker I am. I have suck out to explore the surround area abit and survive. That made me excessively happy and I was willing to spend the hour at work at when that templar is on to give reports. Even if it was short But I had more time to play at that time.
If leaders don't want more work. Then don't give shit to off peakers in general. And it's been repeated again and again that many things that an off peaker face is because the lack of IC INTERACTION. If no one understood that it means being timezone screwed.
I'm not here to pin point at events that happened because it was purely ic and I have no problems with that. I got triggered because of a specific word that happened and it will not be discussed.
Please bear in mind that I might have grudges of past leadership hence I am able to see at the current leaders everywhere with fresh eyes.
The issue is really the off peakers ability to get promoted ig to give something ig because they want to and they are trying. But it doesn't help when they cannot interact enough to 'garner trust and are at the mercy of every rumors and smearing because the leader doesn't know you'. Pretty much which means if ur leader think you're shit, time to divorce the clan.
And yep still because difference in timezone = screwed.
? I'm not responding defensively, nor do I feel particularly defensive. If you don't agree with my point of view, that's perfectly fine-- I'm basically of the POV that IC is IC and if OOC is affecting IC, well, that sucks but what do you want leaders to do about it if you take no steps from the minion side to change what's going on IC?
Quote from: Revenant on May 22, 2015, 11:34:10 PM
RGS, I usually agree with you, here I do not. I think you are showing little empathy for the people who struggle through clan-life with little to no recognition, which, I know we played together back then, you could be practicing some empathy, but you never even tried. You never even saw it was going on, and you were probably quite puzzled with the results because you, never bothered. I mean, your character wouldn't, this doesn't mean you wouldn't, but obviously, you didn't. There was much more to it than that, but this was a major concern to me. I'm not going to accuse you of having, oh, say, eight karma apathy, because, I know you play good characters, you play them well, and I love your mundanes. I don't like wading through this sewage because, see above, I really think some people are in the wrong.
No I likely never saw what was going on, because I'm not even sure what you're talking about right now. There's good reasons why I'm not playing leaders anymore, part of them is this expectation players seem to have that you owe it to them to personally account their perspective even when they don't take any steps to communicate with you. But that doesn't change the fact I had opinions much like you, playing off-peak before. And then that opinion changed after playing a leader, because I had new perspective. Leaders don't owe it to you to make sure everything is going well if you can't be arsed to let them know something isn't going well. If it really mattered to me I could have easily mended my own situation. Instead I blamed my leader( I think it was Case's Templar, sorry case) for not acknowledging me. Now I realize I could have done a lot of things to help myself instead of getting upset at others.
I have plenty of sympathy for off-peakers. More often than not, that's me.
Heh, was that on that one Private, RGS? I was gonna promote you and then you ran away and deserted :D
Being a leader is tough. Good leaders want everyone in their clan to have fun. We like to know who our minions are, and I think a lot of us give them a lot of benefit of the doubt when I hear they're up to no good (I know I did). It's a two way street, though. We need SOME feedback to know how our minions are doing. For on peak players this is easy and done almost organically since we're around each other. But for minions who don't share our time zones, it behooves both leader and minion to reasonably work on staying in touch as well they can.
I don't think being offpeak is automatically damning your character to not being trusted or getting promoted. It just requires a little more effort to be put in (from both sides) to make sure you're a happy and valued member of the clan.
This thread originally got revived over the matter of promotions. Promotions have always been a problematic reward because most clans are very small. The militias only ever have one sergeant and maybe two corporals; the Byn is not much better. Promoting everyone to Sergeant or Corporal isn't practical. For that reason I'm a big fan of lateral promotions and other forms of recognition. I also like to give minions autonomy, and greatly appreciate it when it's rewarded with minions not making me look like a dolt with it.
I still think being leader just as in real life if you are managing a group of asshats, you'd still pop by and ask them. You being in a leadership role is responsible for the performance of your team. That being said if you have tries and tried again to communicate ic and ooc but met with nothing? Then you have already done your part RGS. There's nothing else you can do except role play out how a piece a shit they are if they don't got a good reason to tell you an reason after you have tried to contact them.
Not every pc leader does that. Let chu know. And I heart u many many RGS.
Leaders do owe it to you to do some investigation, seriously, before they drop the hammer. Also, Aegaelica, your name is hard to spell, pick something easier. I've seen you roll with the punches, RGS, and while it's admirable, you weren't the person offset by roughly twelve hours. I'd like to dismiss what I said as idle banter, but you continue to make arguments that prove me right. Please fix. Neither of you is considering the victim, and indeed, seem to be blaming them.
Jesus, Revenant, please lay off the white knighting and rudeness.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 23, 2015, 12:04:43 AM
I still think being leader just as in real life if you are managing a group of asshats, you'd still pop by and ask them. You being in a leadership role is responsible for the performance of your team. That being said if you have tries and tried again to communicate ic and ooc but met with nothing? Then you have already done your part RGS. There's nothing else you can do except role play out how a piece a shit they are if they don't got a good reason to tell you an reason after you have tried to contact them.
Not every pc leader does that. Let chu know. And I heart u many many RGS.
Filing reports about what pieces of shit your leader are is totally appropriate. Even if Staff can't do much to materially help you, reports have been a good place for me to vent. And sometimes we do find solutions.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 23, 2015, 12:08:02 AM
Jesus, Revenant, please lay off the white knighting and rudeness.
I said what needed to be said, hopefully I'm done, if I'm not, you'll hear more. I think I've said it all though... I could be wrong. White knighting and rudeness, hrrmmm, what, because I'm talking about what ruffles my feathers? How do we advance IC if we don't accept our IG surroundings? You think there should be no complaints?
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 23, 2015, 12:02:18 AM
Heh, was that on that one Private, RGS? I was gonna promote you and then you ran away and deserted :D
Yeah, I think that was the one. Very embarrassing character to remember. I thought he was going to go all Dances with Wolves, instead he just got eaten by gortoks after falling off of a cliff in a sandstorm the first RL day I had him deserted.
Quote from: Revenant on May 23, 2015, 12:07:03 AM
Leaders do owe it to you to do some investigation, seriously, before they drop the hammer. Also, Aegaelica, your name is hard to spell, pick something easier. I've seen you roll with the punches, RGS, and while it's admirable, you weren't the person offset by roughly twelve hours. I'd like to dismiss what I said as idle banter, but you continue to make arguments that prove me right. Please fix. Neither of you is considering the victim, and indeed, seem to be blaming them.
I'm going to need you to explain yourself if you want me to understand what you're getting at. I'm not the smartest so you're going to have to keep it really simple, also the less you have me depend on my own memory, the better off we'll be.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 23, 2015, 12:04:43 AM
I still think being leader just as in real life if you are managing a group of asshats, you'd still pop by and ask them. You being in a leadership role is responsible for the performance of your team. That being said if you have tries and tried again to communicate ic and ooc but met with nothing? Then you have already done your part RGS. There's nothing else you can do except role play out how a piece a shit they are if they don't got a good reason to tell you an reason after you have tried to contact them.
Not every pc leader does that. Let chu know. And I heart u many many RGS.
I will definitely concede that a good leader should care about the fun of their underlings, and attempt to interact with them when said leaders are playing. I just not sure we should expect leaders to PM or e-mail their underlings asking if everything honky-dory. If a leader says no, they can't promote you, they should then seek to figure out if you're worth promoting try to set up a meeting and then re-address the situation. But expecting them to do all that before a denial would be a bit strange.
Always been a fan of your characters, RGS, not always a fan of your perspectives, but you characters are, magnetic, even if short lived.
Thanks. If it helps even I don't agree with myself all the time.
Yeah, well, then we have something in common, and not in the smartass I always disagree with you sort of way, but in that I continually question myself. Good on you, just, there IS a problem when people choose to exploit those off peak because they're easy targets.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 22, 2015, 11:43:09 PM
How I see it of you are a leader is to always engage and put up fun role play and tasks for your minions. Even when there is nothing to do you even the simplest action of removing some restrictions would already make off peakers very happy.
Lifted restrictions is more available to some clans than others, unfortunately. From my POV allowing PCs to get out and explore is definitely the meat and potatoes of Arm's combat-oriented game, but it's also a major newbie (and veteran?) killer so I can understand why there might be restrictions on this from staff.
Outside of implementing off-peak leadership or giving specific permissions to do X, I'm not really sure what kind of solution there is to this problem.
If you feel there's something worthy of OOC complaint then submitting a player complaint seems to be where it's at, or yeah, IC reporting to superiors might work, too. That's a good idea, actually! IMO the less time OOCly spent on this kind of thing, the better, since too much OOC tends to foster bad feelings. Sometimes IC drama is just IC drama.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 23, 2015, 12:24:18 AM
I will definitely concede that a good leader should care about the fun of their underlings, and attempt to interact with them when said leaders are playing. I just not sure we should expect leaders to PM or e-mail their underlings asking if everything honky-dory. If a leader says no, they can't promote you, they should then seek to figure out if you're worth promoting try to set up a meeting and then re-address the situation. But expecting them to do all that before a denial would be a bit strange.
Where's the like button?
This goes without saying that if you want to play an asshole leader go ahead but there will be consequences like how it has happened in the past.
I can see everyone is trying to push at minions and leaders on who should put out to who and it gives me the impression of the old bane called entitlement.
Let's keep it on context of playing this mud as a game and by no means it should be compared to real life because I think that would be disastrous. This being a game and the role play of playing a terrible leader isn't condoned as long as staff knows it is your concept and it is accepted.
I have played with a very incompetent leader who seemed to wear down the entire clan in another game but I reckon the arm role calls are looking for a specific role and to do a specific thing and thus taking on the role means more responsibility and more wcutiny from minions because they are watching how you perform as a leader.
You wanna succeed get rid of that entitlement pride it takes both sides to work together and it doesn't take a lot of energy to just pop a pm.. This does not apply to nobles and templar of course. They are designed to be entitled.
Sadly. Anything goes in a mud and it goes go your way. It's always the one who plays more that will have more influence and obvious handicap to off peak.
And I don't think staff would mind if the leader decides to lift so restriction as long as you let them know. Cause from what this thread would and hopefully allow staff to give a little more reign for leaders to me bad decisions.
Edit: decided to withdraw my last statement because it's detrimental and is in no way of complaint for recent happenings.
I'm honestly confused. What has aeglaeca said that seems unsympathetic to off-peakers? It's all seemed pretty reasonable to me.
This sounds like some very specific complain about an event or a character in particular, no?
Guys, civil, no flame bait, ect.
What I can condense, Aegleaca, from her broken english, and this is just an attempt at translation, maybe you need to really weigh your priorities. What is it YOU want from your current position? Do you want to headbutt everything you see? Well, you can do that, but it's a tired strategy. It's not like we haven't seen it before, it's not like it's anything new, what's really interesting is new leaders with new strategies, this is what we like to see, as players, people who shake things up, redefine, and yes, you could do this, easily, but you must alter your approach, I'll quickly stop playing if you start alienating people. Honestly, it's been a hobby for a few years? Psht. Don't be boring, because I know you can do better.
Quote from: senseofeven on May 23, 2015, 12:46:49 AM
And I don't think staff would mind if the leader decides to lift so restriction as long as you let them know. Cause from what this thread would and hopefully allow staff to give a little more reign for leaders to me bad decisions.
Clan rules are clan rules. Staff expects to see them enforced whether for on-peak or off-peak players. If you don't like the rules of a particular clan, unless you are actually playing a sponsored role, you don't have to play in that clan. It's your choice to do so, and if you make the choice to play in a clan, it's expected that you will follow the rules or bear the consequences.
Quote from: Revenant on May 23, 2015, 12:59:40 AM
What I can condense, Aegleaca, from her broken english, and this is just an attempt at translation, maybe you need to really weigh your priorities. What is it YOU want from your current position? Do you want to headbutt everything you see? Well, you can do that, but it's a tired strategy. It's not like we haven't seen it before, it's not like it's anything new, what's really interesting is new leaders with new strategies, this is what we like to see, as players, people who shake things up, redefine, and yes, you could do this, easily, but you must alter your approach, I'll quickly stop playing if you start alienating people. Honestly, it's been a hobby for a few years? Psht. Don't be boring, because I know you can do better.
It is completely inappropriate to target your remarks in this thread at another player in this manner. You need to stop.
In fact, everyone needs to stop discussing possibly current events in game in only thinly-veiled terms. You know what, fuck it. Thread locked because it's gotten super dumb.