Involving people who don't play US evenings

[Tetra]

Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.

To bring things back on topic, this thread is about being off-peak.

So, you're basically asserting it's the off-peak player's fault that they don't share a timezone with their templar/sergeant/noble, therefore the lack of trust is the minion's fault?

Any leg you were trying to stand on in this conversation just walked out from under you.

[RogueGunslinger]

I read and understood what you wrote just fine. I didn't rip your posts out of context. It's just your context seems to be changing with each new post.

Well let's be honest, some of it probably is the leaders fault, they may be a new leader, may not know how they are coming off, lots of stuff requires two way communication.  Just like if your gf/bf is doing something that pisses you off or makes you feel bad and you don't ever correct them.  How do you expect them to get better?

We're talking about the inability to communicate in general though. There is no "getting better" when it comes to log-in times. You either try to log in closer to the majority, or you don't. You either try to arrange a time for you and your leader to meet, or you don't. Both of those things require action on the underlings part before the leader can respond.

Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.

To bring things back on topic, this thread is about being off-peak.

So, you're basically asserting it's the off-peak player's fault that they don't share a timezone with their templar/sergeant/noble, therefore the lack of trust is the minion's fault?

Any leg you were trying to stand on in this conversation just walked out from under you.

I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.

[Asmoth]

I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.

Wait a damn minute...

So you're saying that because they don't want to play Arm, a game, a text based game, at 4am or 2am in the morning for them, because it happens to be 9pm here in EST that they are at fault?

Nobody, and I repeat nobody that plays this game should have rearrange real life to suit anyone, staff, player, leader, sorcerer king, anyone.

Because at the end of the day RL>Any game.

Instead of throwing fault on some poor European (or some other far off land) player, why don't we make strides to accommodate them because we want them to play this game and have fun?

[RogueGunslinger]

I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.

Wait a damn minute...

So you're saying that because they don't want to play Arm, a game, a text based game, at 4am or 2am in the morning for them, because it happens to be 9pm here in EST that they are at fault?

Nobody, and I repeat nobody that plays this game should have rearrange real life to suit anyone, staff, player, leader, sorcerer king, anyone.

Because at the end of the day RL>Any game.

Instead of throwing fault on some poor European (or some other far off land) player, why don't we make strides to accommodate them because we want them to play this game and have fun?

First, that quote is not saying the underling is to blame, it's saying if anyone is to blame it's the underling.  Second, you just literally quoted me saying it doesn't matter who's at fault, but that it's still on the offpeak player to fix the situation. Do you agree or disagree with that? Or are we going to keep trying to twist my argument to sound like I'm saying it's your fault for being a black man born in Mississippi pre 1960's.

[Tetra]

I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.

Perhaps you didn't read my post where I said...

Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game.  I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.

I read and understood what you wrote just fine. I didn't rip your posts out of context. It's just your context seems to be changing with each new post.

All signs point to you not really reading what I said, but I can explain for you again in clearer terms.  Leadership PCs are sponsored roles.  The point of a sponsored role is to enrich the clan experience for other PCs, that's why you apply for it.  It's not a lot to expect to try and check in with minions, if it means logging in at a strange time once in a while, or scheduling a mini-RPT meeting.

Leaders should be, by definition, more proactive and aware of their clans schedules and making a point of reaching out.  To even suggest that the average player, or even new player is in the wrong is frankly, ridiculous.

[Asmoth]

First, that quote is not saying the underling is to blame, it's saying if anyone is to blame it's the underling.  Second, you just literally quoted me saying it doesn't matter who's at fault, but that it's still on the offpeak player to fix the situation. Do you agree or disagree with that? Or are we going to keep trying to twist my argument to sound like I'm saying it's your fault for being a black man born in Mississippi pre 1960's.

The leader is the leader because they are expected to LEAD.

I couldn't go to any of my bosses in any past job and say, "Hey, I need to be promoted and should be, because I talked to you about it."  But a good boss would address that with me and ask me where I see myself in X years.

I can't force my boss to take action, my boss has to inspire me to take action.

It's totally on the leader in my opinion.

Haven't seen Joe the hunter since you hired him a RL month ago, but know he's still there.  You can't fault Joe the hunter for doing his job as asked for a RL month but not making time to come on at 4am in the morning to give you an update.

You should be staying up till 4am one day to check on on Joe, if you're that pressed, if you're not, then you don't care about Joe and not caring about Joe is wrong.

[RogueGunslinger]

I actually think it's less about who's fault it is (though clearly an off-peaker is at some sort of fault more than anyone else for where they live) than it about who should be willing to overcome the problem. Don't you think it's on the off-peak player to set up some sort of meeting with the leader, or to try and better communicate with them, or to try to log in at better times to show how trustworthy they are? Don't you feel you have any personal responsibility to amend the situation? I think if you fail to do anything like this, it is you own fault that you are where you are and the only person to blame is yourself.

Perhaps you didn't read my post where I said...

Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game.  I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.

I read and understood what you wrote just fine. I didn't rip your posts out of context. It's just your context seems to be changing with each new post.

All signs point to you not really reading what I said, but I can explain for you again in clearer terms.  Leadership PCs are sponsored roles.  The point of a sponsored role is to enrich the clan experience for other PCs, that's why you apply for it.  It's not a lot to expect to try and check in with minions, if it means logging in at a strange time once in a while, or scheduling a mini-RPT meeting.

Leaders should be, by definition, more proactive and aware of their clans schedules and making a point of reaching out.  To even suggest that the average player, or even new player is in the wrong is frankly, ridiculous.

Leadership pc's are not all sponsored. Saying leadership players have to cater to and enforce interactions with off-peakers is silly. How are they even supposed to know the player wants that if they're unwilling to come forward themselves. I can promise you there are quite a few players who definitely DON'T want that attention. Expecting the average players to have some personal responsibility for their own fun really isn't asking too much. But expecting leaders to try to cater to each and every player in their clan, even the ones who share no time-zones with them, without first expecting some sort of request from the underling... Now that's ridiculous.

First, that quote is not saying the underling is to blame, it's saying if anyone is to blame it's the underling.  Second, you just literally quoted me saying it doesn't matter who's at fault, but that it's still on the offpeak player to fix the situation. Do you agree or disagree with that? Or are we going to keep trying to twist my argument to sound like I'm saying it's your fault for being a black man born in Mississippi pre 1960's.

The leader is the leader because they are expected to LEAD.

I couldn't go to any of my bosses in any past job and say, "Hey, I need to be promoted and should be, because I talked to you about it."  But a good boss would address that with me and ask me where I see myself in X years.

I can't force my boss to take action, my boss has to inspire me to take action.

It's totally on the leader in my opinion.

Haven't seen Joe the hunter since you hired him a RL month ago, but know he's still there.  You can't fault Joe the hunter for doing his job as asked for a RL month but not making time to come on at 4am in the morning to give you an update.

You should be staying up till 4am one day to check on on Joe, if you're that pressed, if you're not, then you don't care about Joe and not caring about Joe is wrong.

How you can expect a leader to do for you what you're unwilling to do for yourself will never make sense to me.

[BadSkeelz]

Heh, if I had an offpeak minion "demanding" that I stay up late to meet with them, I'd probably do it just so I could PK them. Fortunately I doubt someone that unreasonable really exists; certainly none of mine were like that. And if they do, I'd probably never recruit them.

[Tetra]

Leadership pc's are not all sponsored. Saying leadership players have to cater to and enforce interactions with off-peakers is silly. How are they even supposed to know the player wants that if they're unwilling to come forward themselves. I can promise you there are quite a few players who definitely DON'T want that attention. Expecting the average players to have some personal responsibility for their own fun really isn't asking too much. But expecting leaders to try to cater to each and every player in their clan, even the ones who share no time-zones with them, without first expecting some sort of request from the underling... Now that's ridiculous.

I was going to preface the statement with usually sponsored, but since we're going down that road:

This is about communication and roleplay, not about being the martyr for your entire clans personal fun.  Nobody insisted leadership has to cater to players interactions.  But here's the thing; if you are not interacting with your clan, you aren't really being an effective leader.  Good leaders are always involved and have their hands in the pot.  Some of the best PC leaders I've played with came to ask questions first, instead of waiting for their underlings to come to them.

You are assuming that minions actually -want- to report everything.  Some things, they will keep to themselves for fear or uncertainty -- as a leader it's your job to actually pull it out of them(this has happened on several occasions and PCs).  The leadership you're describing to me?  It's lazy.  Plain and simple.


If you find involving people and communicating with your off-peakers too much of a hassle for you, maybe you shouldn't be in your role?

tldr; Just because you are in a leadership role, doesn't mean you are actually acting like one.

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe. I prefer to play leadership roles that have goals (serve the state, serve the employer), and being your therapist is generally not one of them.

[RogueGunslinger]

All I can say is I suggest you play a leader PC before talking about the pie-in-the-sky way you think leaders should behave.

[senseofeven]

Lol.

So skimming through the posts here. I've certainly come to terms that off peak players are going to be will be and anyway will be penalised in whichever and whatever the pc leaders fancy. Why? Because WELCOME TO ARMAGEDDON.

Do you really think that the off peak player would like that? It'll make them feel as how I have first posted on the thtead:

- Why should I even play this game when I'm going nowhere with my mundane?
- Why should I spend all time and effort to play and get somewhere?
- If I wanted to play a solo rpg there's always other games to go to.

And then I expect to be told, if you can't handle it, quit. Hmm?

Though note that I know many of the leader ig are great leaders because for a span of 3 months or so when I had no job? Things were peachy cause I was playing peak times. But now things are different and sometimes when serious slanderous rumors appear and it gets flung to you? Not appreciated because I see that as kinda... rude.

Not everyone would understand the troubles that off peak face. Sometimes we send a gdb pm and get no replies. Sometimes I had tried to relay a 'report' as an IC message/behind the scenes but thought again that it was poor form to do something like that because -it didn't happen IG so can't be taken in as IG-.

So how?

[Tetra]

All I can say is I suggest you play a leader PC before talking about the pie-in-the-sky way you think leaders should behave.

I run and coordinate roleplay events for a group of 50 people on another game, with help from only 2 other people.  That's roughly about the population of Arm in its entirety during peak hours, so I'm speaking from experience and not a far-flung ideal.

[RogueGunslinger]

So how?

Emails to clan staff and leaders. An attempt at finding hours on weekends or common days to get in there and make yourself known. Rumor board posts involving your offpeak hijinks. And, if you're really miffed about people spreading rumors about you, don't give them a reason to. I've played and seen numerous off-peak players who easily avoided confrontation within their clan. I've also been that person waiting 3 IC years for a promotion but cant quite get it due to conflicting times. It sucks but it's a reality of the game for someone who's unwilling to find other methods of communication like I just mentioned.

All I can say is I suggest you play a leader PC before talking about the pie-in-the-sky way you think leaders should behave.

I run and coordinate roleplay events for a group of 50 people on another game, with help from only 2 other people.  That's roughly about the population of Arm in its entirety during peak hours, so I'm speaking from experience and not a far-flung ideal.

And you personally reach as an IC leader to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? You make specific time to log in in off-peak hours to help those players? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?

[BadSkeelz]

Unfortunately, sometimes you're going to have leaders who care less about off-peak enjoyment than others (which I don't condone). Your methods of reaching out to them seem fine to me, especially if they've ever said "available for appointments or something."

I'd suggest keeping up on the reports to staff. Them being kept in the know of what your character is actually doing is probably a big help when a PC-leader asks them what your character is doing, and whether there's any truth to rumors of shenanigans.

Also, apply for leadership! Some of the my favorite leaders (and staff) have been offpeak.

[Tetra]

And you personally reach out to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?

Both when possible(listening and asking).  But that volume of people can't be reached by a DM, which is why you get officers(leadership) to do that in their roles.  Checking in with, maybe one off-peak player in your clan is easier than the amount of time it takes to post in this thread and have verbose debates.

What you're describing sounds more like things that would belong in the request tool for staff, rather than a clan lead.  

[RogueGunslinger]

And you personally reach out to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?

Both when possible(listening and asking).  But that volume of people can't be reached by a DM, which is why you get officers(leadership) to do that in their roles.  Checking in with, maybe one off-peak player in your clan is easier than the amount of time it takes to post in this thread and have verbose debates.

What you're describing sounds more like things that would belong in the request tool for staff, rather than a clan lead.  

I don't really find these situations comparable. An IC leader is not like a DM. But you reasoning makes a lot more sense if that's how you're expecting them to act.

[Tetra]

And you personally reach out to all 50 of those players to make sure everything is going well, they're having fun, and their wishes for their characters are being represented well by the game? Or do you expect people to tell you when they have an issue?

Both when possible(listening and asking).  But that volume of people can't be reached by a DM, which is why you get officers(leadership) to do that in their roles.  Checking in with, maybe one off-peak player in your clan is easier than the amount of time it takes to post in this thread and have verbose debates.

What you're describing sounds more like things that would belong in the request tool for staff, rather than a clan lead.  

I don't really find these situations comparable. A IC leader is not like a DM. But you reasoning makes a lot more sense if that's how you're expecting them to act.

They're comparable in their disparity(an Arm clan leader is working with a small, occasionally moderate number of clan members, most of which will be on-peak), not in their functions.  Obviously as a clan leader, you can't(and shouldn't, it's likely not appropriate IC) pseudo-roleplay a coddling session.   You also can't OOCly consult your clan on their progress -- which again, is not a clan lead's responsibility but more of a staff role.

What you can do, however, is make tabs of minions you haven't interacted with.  Are they dead?  If not, what can they do to make themselves useful?  You are paying their keep/putting them up, after all.  There are a million ways you can look at it, but at the end of the day, your level of involvement benefits you.  If you want to outlive, outlast, outsmart, it's not going to happen without some due diligence.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with all of that. Yay for, common ground.

[aeglaeca]

From a leader POV, it's very difficult to know who's around off peak times vs inactive if you make no effort IC or OOC to get in touch with them. A lot of new hires don't come back, die, store, etc., particularly in a newbie-oriented clan like the Byn, and particularly in a large clan where not everyone announces their PC on the forums. Putting that onus on the leader is really very impractical. Leaders already spend a good chunk of time a week on reports, and unless you are a particularly excellent multitasker (which I am not) you can't play and write a report at the same time. Is more paperwork essentially what you want to add to their plate?

Honestly, lack of IC interaction is generally an IC problem that can be overcome by speaking to a higher-up off peak PC who /is/ in touch with leadership. Personally I would love to have an off-peak leader or pseudo-leader minion just to solve problems like this (and did at one point have one which seemed to keep the wheels greased for about a RL week), but obviously someone needs to be promotable to that before it can happen.

Negative consequences for IC actions taken like skipping the schedule (because it's off-peak and no leaders are around) are much more likely to happen because they'll be reported and because following the schedule is not something that /is/ rewarded. Additionally, off-peak activity is restricted from staff-side, because funner, more dangerous activities like going out and training outside the gates need to be led by proper leadership.

I personally have absolutely no desire to punish off-peak players for ICly skipping the schedule because nothing is going on. HOWEVER, if you're going to skip the schedule, at least be smart about it. Personally, I'd be happy to take 'Hey, can I take a few days off next week when things are slow to handle some personal business'-- which is something ICly accounted for by logout time anyway. I'd also be happy to not hear about it at all because your PC decided to skip the schedule somewhere other than the barracks or the Gaj.

[hyzhenhok]

I'm not seeing a whole lot of onus on leader PCs for what senseofeven was asking for.

Off-peak clannie who you know little about approaches you. Checking your info from the clan boards, you know that this PC has been in your clan for X IC years and is as such eligible for Y promotion.

You now have three choices:

• Promote them.
• Refuse and dump them from the clan.
• Refuse and maintain status quo.

Leaders have to bend their IC play to the OOC demands of leadership quite a bit, sure. But if it's so OOC important that you not promote this PC, then it's not expecting that much to ask you to come up with an IC reason that's better than a thinly veiled OOC complaint about their play times. It's actually probably far better in most cases to either just risk giving them promotion, or to force them out of the clan --either way, it's progression and a possibility of conflict, both of things which are Good Things^TM.

I do want to note that I think this problem is extraordinarily rare. I have been mostly offpeak since 2010 and I've only run into this problem once.

[Revenant]

RGS, I usually agree with you, here I do not. I think you are showing little empathy for the people who struggle through clan-life with little to no recognition, which, I know we played together back then, you could be practicing some empathy, but you never even tried. You never even saw it was going on, and you were probably quite puzzled with the results because you, never bothered. I mean, your character wouldn't, this doesn't mean you wouldn't, but obviously, you didn't. There was much more to it than that, but this was a major concern to me. I'm not going to accuse you of having, oh, say, eight karma apathy, because, I know you play good characters, you play them well, and I love your mundanes. I don't like wading through this sewage because, see above, I really think some people are in the wrong.

[Tetra]

From a leader POV, it's very difficult to know who's around off peak times vs inactive if you make no effort IC or OOC to get in touch with them. A lot of new hires don't come back, die, store, etc., particularly in a newbie-oriented clan like the Byn, and particularly in a large clan where not everyone announces their PC on the forums. Putting that onus on the leader is really very impractical. Leaders already spend a good chunk of time a week on reports, and unless you are a particularly excellent multitasker (which I am not) you can't play and write a report at the same time. Is more paperwork essentially what you want to add to their plate?

Honestly, lack of IC interaction is generally an IC problem that can be overcome by speaking to a higher-up off peak PC who /is/ in touch with leadership. Personally I would love to have an off-peak leader or pseudo-leader minion just to solve problems like this (and did at one point have one which seemed to keep the wheels greased for about a RL week), but obviously someone needs to be promotable to that before it can happen.

Negative consequences for IC actions taken like skipping the schedule (because it's off-peak and no leaders are around) are much more likely to happen because they'll be reported and because following the schedule is not something that /is/ rewarded. Additionally, off-peak activity is restricted from staff-side, because funner, more dangerous activities like going out and training outside the gates need to be led by proper leadership.

I personally have absolutely no desire to punish off-peak players for ICly skipping the schedule because nothing is going on. HOWEVER, if you're going to skip the schedule, at least be smart about it. Personally, I'd be happy to take 'Hey, can I take a few days off next week when things are slow to handle some personal business'-- which is something ICly accounted for by logout time anyway. I'd also be happy to not hear about it at all because your PC decided to skip the schedule somewhere other than the barracks or the Gaj.

For the Byn it's definitely a lot more hectic and impractical since people are constantly flinging themselves into the nearest death trap.   But...

For Nobles and their Aides, there is usually some cap imposed on how many people they can employ.  If those Aides are really being utilized to their full extent, that noble(if they're smart) is tapping into their intel and keeping in touch with them regularly.  If one of them is off-peak and suspected dead, demand they report as soon as possible.  It's in your power to do that, and why shouldn't you?  Strategically speaking, any resource not being used that you are paying for, is a wasted one.

Beyond that, it serves the dual purpose of bringing that off-peak player into the fold and really integrating them into the group dynamic.

[Revenant]

Alright, Aeglaeca, you made your point, all in favor of boycotiting the [redacted] say "aye". Because your argument does little to validate your position beyond making you look... well, civil discourse is important, but if you keep responding defensively, eventually I won't be able to stop myself, and then it'll look like a flame war, so please, stop being apathetic to everyone who isn't a part of your clone bounty hunter army.

[senseofeven]

Generally an off peak is left to their own devices and sometimes when a lowly runner goes to ask a higher off peak runner to help bridge communications to leadership then believe it all what they say? I think you're making a huge mistake because seeing how arm players are. Off peakers are going to get fucked. And sometimes leaders don't come down or wait to actually ask these off peakers about things if it's true or not.

Why? Cause it's pretty easy to say that pc leaders don't have to do that. And pretty much at tht mercy at all the mud slinging. How can you outlast when the powers that be don't account about you? And all that is mainly because you don't see them 90% of the time and even when you do, it's when you're going to bed.

As a pc leader before I have sent and reached out to player ooc to show in -MY- effort as a leader to those that I haven't seen ig. Sometimes I get replies and I understand these other players situation.

So don't assume that I don't know or never played a pc leader. And even writing reports as a mundane is not required from staff. How about those players who don't write as much or often? How can someone remember everything that hey have done during the week nor month? Summary is summary. And never had I asked staff about other players because I should try to find them out myself if all ic and ooc channels have been used.

How I see it of you are a leader is to always engage and put up fun role play and tasks for your minions. Even when there is nothing to do you even the simplest action of removing some restrictions would already make off peakers very happy.

I remember my templar granted my corporal free reign to led people out of the gates only on some conditions. But being the bored off peaker I am. I have suck out to explore the surround area abit and survive. That made me excessively happy and I was willing to spend the hour at work at when that templar is on to give reports. Even if it was short But I had more time to play at that time.

If leaders don't want more work. Then don't give shit to off peakers in general. And it's been repeated again and again that many things that an off peaker face is because the lack of IC INTERACTION. If no one understood that it means being timezone screwed.

I'm not here to pin point at events that happened because it was purely ic and I have no problems with that. I got triggered because of a specific word that happened and it will not be discussed.

Please bear in mind that I might have grudges of past leadership hence I am able to see at the current leaders everywhere with fresh eyes.

The issue is really the off peakers ability to get promoted ig to give something ig because they want to and they are trying. But it doesn't help when they cannot interact enough to 'garner trust and are at the mercy of every rumors and smearing because the leader doesn't know you'. Pretty much which means if ur leader think you're shit, time to divorce the clan.

And yep still because difference in timezone = screwed.