Involving people who don't play US evenings

[Revenant]

If you want to take an extra day off, there are two solutions: ask permission or don't get caught. Please trust that your leaders do not want to punish you for your OOC schedule, they just want you to not be blatantly skipping your duties in front of a million vNPCs.

I'm aware of this. Most of the time, there's no one to ask for permission. It also doesn't happen with the frequency with which it's perceived to, I worry vNPCs, NPCs and/or PCs reporting things may assume it IS, and may report incorrect, slanderous, potentially disasterous information, which can't really be contested and no one can stick up for the off-peak players because there's not enough people around. Staff can't be there all the time, nor can other PCs, and it may be a logical assumption that if you see it once, it's happening all the time, but it's just that, an assumption. There's also the trouble that there's really nowhere to go where you're not surrounded by a million vNPCs, being a broke-ass runner.

Having played many PCs, who were rather dutiful but occasionally slacked off (I mean, it's only natural to say, you know what, fuck it, I'm taking the day off every once in a while), I can say I have not encountered this issue very frequently. I have seen others encounter it before, however, and I think acting with a lack of information can be quite harmful to the enjoyment of the game for others. This is fine, there's no responsibility to make things perfect for everyone all the time, but simply, off-peak players are specifically more vulnerable to these kinds of tactics and perceptions.

I think, at times, we, as human beings, have a tendency to focus on the negatives of another person's actions, and sometimes have a lack of gratitude toward the positives. I do it myself, but I'm aware of that and try to limit it. Weaknesses are highly important to be aware of, strengths, however, should also be taken into account, and sometimes, it's easy to miss the intangible benefits that another person may provide. I know I've done it myself. While IC it's perfectly fine, and perhaps should be encouraged at times, to make these mistakes, IRL I like to hold myself to a higher standard as far as adjusting my perceptions. I have to, otherwise, I'd be a terrible, terrible person.

[Desertman]

I'm not sure what you are complaining about here.

Your complaint is off-peak players who's characters slack off get treated worse than peak-time players who's characters slack off and you don't like that?

[valeria]

As a frequent player of leaders, I've had several offpeak minions that I rarely ever see.  There are a couple of things good offpeak minions do to bridge the gap:

1) Reporting their doings to minions that I DO see regularly and DO report to me often.  This is extremely valuable, if there's a minion available that bridges the gap. 

The one IC hangup I could see is that that as a private-rank-type you might not thinking about reporting to another private-rank person... but this happens all the time in real life.  I quite frequently ask my boss's secretary to tell my boss things.  I'd consider us of about the same rank, but she happens to talk to him on the phone more than I do.

2) Make sure to report regularly when you know your playtimes might overlap with mine, like on weekends.  Sending me a PM asking if I'm going to be available early Saturday afternoon or whatever is two thumbs up (just no IC info please).

3) Arrange for meetings on the clan boards. 

4) See if I'm available by appointment.  Especially if I've posted a million times that I'm available by appointment.  I've gotten up at 5:30 am on a couple Saturdays to take reports.

I can't speak for other leaders, or the experiences of off-peak players, but I'm willing to work with off-peak players that are willing to work with me.  I've never fired or refused to promote someone because they play off-peak.  I have fired people, both on peak and off peak, that aren't doing what I need them to be doing.  At a minimum, I need to hear from other people that they're around and doing things and not dead or stored.

[Revenant]

I'm not sure what you are complaining about here.

Your complaint is off-peak players who's characters slack off get treated worse than peak-time players who's characters slack off and you don't like that?

The thing is, it could possibly be an exaggeration or an outright lie (intentional or unintintional), depending on the source of the information. I've seen similar things happen before, to Senseofeven. I might have avenged it *whistles innocently*. The thing I don't like is off-peak players being more vulnerable to gossip and slander. I get it, the game world isn't meant to be fair, but when you sacrifice so much time and effort again and again, and it goes unappreciated or worse, causes offense, this can affect the morale of the player OOC. I really didn't appreciate this vulnerability being exploited when, realistically, there would be off-peak NPCs and vNPCs to speak up for them, but it rarely happens. Because I've been observed doing my job even when nobody's around, being only slightly off peak (east coast), I've gotten some praise and encouragement from leader characters. People see my characters around, they get to interact with them, have a better awareness of their personality and characteristics. Off peak players don't get this so much, and so, if someone gets a wild hair up their butt, this can be a very vulnerable point.

It begs the question, does RL really come first? Would you take it out on a player because something happened while they had to get up to prevent a toddler having an accident, or maybe they're an EMT and on call 24/7? I don't think you would, but some would, unconsciously, allow it to affect their perception  of the character and the player. I understand Zalanthas doesn't work on a merit system, typically, but rather on favoritism and birthright. While this isn't true of all organizations and can vary with leadership, I strongly believe we should be looking for ways to make the game more fun to players, and less stifling to interaction. The rules for Runners are typically a bit heavy-handed. I understand with organizations like Salarr and Kadius, dependent on leadership, this may not always be the case for their recruits, it's no secret the food is better.

Me I make plenty of mistakes, and I try to roll with them. I'm not debating this for my sake, I'm debating it for the sake of off-peak players. If we can make the game a little more fun and user-friendly to offset the disadvantages they face, I think this could help with player retention within their timezones. This is simply my opinion, but I do sense it could drive some players, who genuinely want to play the game the way it was meant to be played, away. Have you ever logged in, typed who, saw, oh, seven to nine people playing, and said, naaa, and logged back out? I have, sometimes I don't. Some of these off-peak players are genuinely fun to play with, and while I could be doing something else with my time, I instead try to alot some time for interacting with them. There's more now, depending what day it is, not saying I had anything (or much) to do with it. Anyone else care to help? If we're going to penalize off-peakers for not being in our timezones, then why don't we try playing in theirs and see how we like it?

[Asmoth]

The way I would handle it if I was a leader would be to coordinate through ic boards of possible to give the guy who plays at 4am shit to do and utilize the gdb for that as well, for all my people.

This way joe hunter who has an outlet to report that he brought in x amount of y and stored it in z.  Giving the leader a chance to checkup and know what joe is doing while I'm sleeping.  Then after such a time, I could promote joe to first hunter of my evil syndicate and joe hunter has some recognition.

The staff is reasonable and I don't think they would mind a bit of board interaction for these folks that can't make peak everyday. Ultimately we want to all have fun and play together and I don't think staff would try and stop you from making it work with the offpeak crowd.

[Tetra]

I'm not sure what you are complaining about here.

Your complaint is off-peak players who's characters slack off get treated worse than peak-time players who's characters slack off and you don't like that?

The thing is, it could possibly be an exaggeration or an outright lie (intentional or unintintional), depending on the source of the information. I've seen similar things happen before, to Senseofeven. I might have avenged it *whistles innocently*. The thing I don't like is off-peak players being more vulnerable to gossip and slander. I get it, the game world isn't meant to be fair, but when you sacrifice so much time and effort again and again, and it goes unappreciated or worse, causes offense, this can affect the morale of the player OOC. I really didn't appreciate this vulnerability being exploited when, realistically, there would be off-peak NPCs and vNPCs to speak up for them, but it rarely happens. Because I've been observed doing my job even when nobody's around, being only slightly off peak (east coast), I've gotten some praise and encouragement from leader characters. People see my characters around, they get to interact with them, have a better awareness of their personality and characteristics. Off peak players don't get this so much, and so, if someone gets a wild hair up their butt, this can be a very vulnerable point.

It begs the question, does RL really come first? Would you take it out on a player because something happened while they had to get up to prevent a toddler having an accident, or maybe they're an EMT and on call 24/7? I don't think you would, but some would, unconsciously, allow it to affect their perception  of the character and the player. I understand Zalanthas doesn't work on a merit system, typically, but rather on favoritism and birthright. While this isn't true of all organizations and can vary with leadership, I strongly believe we should be looking for ways to make the game more fun to players, and less stifling to interaction. The rules for Runners are typically a bit heavy-handed. I understand with organizations like Salarr and Kadius, dependent on leadership, this may not always be the case for their recruits, it's no secret the food is better.

Me I make plenty of mistakes, and I try to roll with them. I'm not debating this for my sake, I'm debating it for the sake of off-peak players. If we can make the game a little more fun and user-friendly to offset the disadvantages they face, I think this could help with player retention within their timezones. This is simply my opinion, but I do sense it could drive some players, who genuinely want to play the game the way it was meant to be played, away. Have you ever logged in, typed who, saw, oh, seven to nine people playing, and said, naaa, and logged back out? I have, sometimes I don't. Some of these off-peak players are genuinely fun to play with, and while I could be doing something else with my time, I instead try to alot some time for interacting with them. There's more now, depending what day it is, not saying I had anything (or much) to do with it. Anyone else care to help? If we're going to penalize off-peakers for not being in our timezones, then why don't we try playing in theirs and see how we like it?

I also find this mildly disconcerting.  Something that may have happened quite a long time ago IC, is still being projected onto you by on-peakers, because that's the last thing they remember you 'doing'.  

Even though the reality is:
1) you are not logging in often, if at all, to 'do' that thing people give you crap for
2) when you are logged in, it's certainly not interacting with on-peak people or the ones who have complaints about you(so how can they know what's actually going on?)
2) That thing is no longer a 'thing' but a series of assumptions that continues to grow, because they aren't interacting with you regularly to form an accurate idea of your PCs behaviour.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not really sure what you're expecting, or if the issues you're talking about happen anywhere near enough for it to be a topic of general discussion instead of something that's dealt with on a case by case basis through staff communication.

[Revenant]

I'm not really sure what you're expecting, or if the issues you're talking about happen anywhere near enough for it to be a topic of general discussion instead of something that's dealt with on a case by case basis through staff communication.

I hope they don't. It was quite distressing. What I'm hoping is that people don't always pick the easiest, most efficient way to accomplish a goal that's harmful to someone else without considering the realities, that's like, not wishing up, going into a camp, and slaughtering the NPCs, then never sending a report. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Tetra]

As a frequent player of leaders, I've had several offpeak minions that I rarely ever see.  There are a couple of things good offpeak minions do to bridge the gap:

1) Reporting their doings to minions that I DO see regularly and DO report to me often.  This is extremely valuable, if there's a minion available that bridges the gap. 

The one IC hangup I could see is that that as a private-rank-type you might not thinking about reporting to another private-rank person... but this happens all the time in real life.  I quite frequently ask my boss's secretary to tell my boss things.  I'd consider us of about the same rank, but she happens to talk to him on the phone more than I do.

2) Make sure to report regularly when you know your playtimes might overlap with mine, like on weekends.  Sending me a PM asking if I'm going to be available early Saturday afternoon or whatever is two thumbs up (just no IC info please).

3) Arrange for meetings on the clan boards. 

4) See if I'm available by appointment.  Especially if I've posted a million times that I'm available by appointment.  I've gotten up at 5:30 am on a couple Saturdays to take reports.

I can't speak for other leaders, or the experiences of off-peak players, but I'm willing to work with off-peak players that are willing to work with me.  I've never fired or refused to promote someone because they play off-peak.  I have fired people, both on peak and off peak, that aren't doing what I need them to be doing.  At a minimum, I need to hear from other people that they're around and doing things and not dead or stored.

The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly.  They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then?  That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving. 

Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game.  I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.

[BadSkeelz]

The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly.  They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then?  That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving. 

Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game.  I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.

I never shied away from recruiting off-peakers. Coincidentally (or not) I had a few instances like this crop up, where it was OffPeak vs Peak and I didn't know who was being the fuck up. In those cases, I always asked staff for an intelligence report from hopefully neutral sources (like VNPCs) to try and get some idea of what was actually happening.

I should have just gone with my gut and killed everyone involved, every time.

[Tetra]

The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly.  They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then?  That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving. 

Could always send a message through your clan GDB board to set up a meeting in-game.  I would imagine sponsored roles would try to accommodate that sort of thing.

I never shied away from recruiting off-peakers. Coincidentally (or not) I had a few instances like this crop up, where it was OffPeak vs Peak and I didn't know who was being the fuck up. In those cases, I always asked staff for an intelligence report from hopefully neutral sources (like VNPCs) to try and get some idea of what was actually happening.

I should have just gone with my gut and killed everyone involved, every time.

This is so much more common than I wish it was. 

Asking for VNPC feedback is definitely a good way to handle that situation.

But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.  Sometimes killing minions actually leaves you at a loss.

[Is Friday]

Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.

[RogueGunslinger]

I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?

[Tetra]

Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.

Less minions = less information.  Knowledge is power, especially when it comes from consistent and reliable sources.  Loyalty can't be bought(only rented).

Depending on the specific role, the irony is your leader is quite useless without good minions(this is especially true for nobles).

I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?

Actually, it is their fault.  If something undesirable happens to a leader, they can only blame themselves for placing trust in the wrong areas.  So not sure where you are going with that!

[Is Friday]

[RogueGunslinger]

Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.

Less minions = less information.  Knowledge is power, especially when it comes from consistent and reliable sources.  Loyalty can't be bought(only rented).

Depending on the specific role, the irony is your leader is quite useless without good minions(this is especially true for nobles).

I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?

Actually, it is their fault.  If something undesirable happens to a leader, they can only blame themselves for placing trust in the wrong areas.  So not sure where you are going with that!

It really isn't their fault that you don't log in enough or at the right times for them to trust you more than someone who does.

[Tetra]

Less minions = less babby drama. I'm all for that.

Less minions = less information.  Knowledge is power, especially when it comes from consistent and reliable sources.  Loyalty can't be bought(only rented).

Depending on the specific role, the irony is your leader is quite useless without good minions(this is especially true for nobles).

I can't say I've ever had a problem where I was worried about what people ICly had to say about my character. That's all part of the game. If you don't like it, kill the people spreading lies/rumors. It's not your clan leaders fault that they're going to trust the people they know better. And if a leader makes the mistake of believing the wrong person... well that's a bit like real life, isn't it?

Actually, it is their fault.  If something undesirable happens to a leader, they can only blame themselves for placing trust in the wrong areas.  So not sure where you are going with that!

It really isn't their fault that you don't log in enough or at the right times for them to trust you more than someone who does.

At what point in my post did I blame the leader?  Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.

[BadSkeelz]

The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones )

I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.

[Harmless]

Two suggestions:

1. Now that we have only one major city, and since templars are so so critical for bringing the city together, raise the cap on the number of templars and try really hard to have at least one templar primarily offpeak. These roles are just so vital fot crime RP, gemmed RP, and soldier RP that assuring they're always available keeps the city going.

2. Have staffers post up their playtimes! Offpeak players can see which staffers on which teams are offpeak like them and make characters that will enhance their ability to be seen by staff and awarded karma for it!!  

[valeria]

The only dilemma with this is, the Private that off-peak player may be reporting to might not like them ICly.  They can twist the facts, claim the report/information was discovered by them, even use it as leverage to make them look bad. What happens then?  That off-peak recruit doesn't get the acknowledgment or appreciation they may be deserving. 

To which I say: welcome to Armageddon. 

[Tetra]

The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones )

I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.

Crazy is only based on what you're hearing from your on-peak recruit.  So actually, you may become the fuckup for believing a story that isn't true.

[RogueGunslinger]

At what point in my post did I blame the leader?  Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.

Do you mean less recently than when you said;

Actually, it is their fault.

It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:

But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.

Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.

The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones )

I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.

Crazy is only based on what you're hearing from your on-peak recruit.  So actually, you may become the fuckup for believing a story that isn't true.

This is suggesting a leaders motivations are based only on hearsay. And not a whole lot of other things. Maybe they just don't give a fuck about your side of the story.

[Tetra]

At what point in my post did I blame the leader?  Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.

Do you mean less recently than when you said;

Actually, it is their fault.

It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:

But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.

Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.

Please read the original post you quoted. Also, just some free advice: if you quote a prior post, isolating a single statement and removing the rest of it can transform the context of the message entirely.  Sorry if you are reading into it the wrong way.  

As an observation, you seem to be blaming people for talking about this in the GDB.  GDB is general discussion.  Disagreeing with people's opinions is fine, but that doesn't make them any less true or valid.

[BadSkeelz]

Most people aren't going to believe the word of only one guy. They'll probably made a decision based on prior experienced with the persons in question.

[Asmoth]

At what point in my post did I blame the leader?  Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.

Do you mean less recently than when you said;

Actually, it is their fault.

It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:

But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.

Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.

Please read the original post you quoted. Also, just some free advice: if you quote a prior post, isolating a single statement and removing the rest of it can transform the context of the message entirely.  Sorry if you are reading into it the wrong way.  

At what point in my post did I blame the leader?  Aside from placing the onus of screwing up their own goal roadmap.

Do you mean less recently than when you said;

Actually, it is their fault.

It was generally just how you seem to be looking for something to blame for a leaderships inability to know who is best to trust. I just wanted to make it clear it's not leaderships fault, because you made a post like this:

But the decision depends on your leader, what they value in their recruits, what their goals are, etc.

Like if they didn't trust you it's their own fault for making a mistake in who to trust. When the reality is it's your fault for not making yourself trustworthy.

The mean part of me recommends that, if you don't want your character to forever be remembered as the crazy fuckup, don't roleplay a crazy fuckup. That's true for anyone of any time zone.. (Though my own anecdotal evidence suggests offpeak PCs are crazier than peak ones )

I'd follow Valeria's points. While I can't speak for all Leaders, in my time I tended to kind of obsess over whether the minions are having fun, regardless of their playtimes. If we know that you're offpeak, there's a good chance we're going to go out of our way to try and incorporate you in to the clan life.

Crazy is only based on what you're hearing from your on-peak recruit.  So actually, you may become the fuckup for believing a story that isn't true.

This is suggesting a leaders motivations are based only on hearsay. And not a whole lot of other things. Maybe they just don't give a fuck about your side of the story.

Well let's be honest, some of it probably is the leaders fault, they may be a new leader, may not know how they are coming off, lots of stuff requires two way communication.  Just like if your gf/bf is doing something that pisses you off or makes you feel bad and you don't ever correct them.  How do you expect them to get better?