Involving people who don't play US evenings

[FantasyWriter]

Don't most if not all clans have IG rumor boards?

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah but nobody uses them(therefore nobody reads them).

[bcw81]

IG Rumor Boards for clans don't seem to be used for the most part - I can look back at my current clan's board and see it's been used most recently in 2012. While yes, they would seem to be good, they do seem to be more of a way to get important info across. The clan forums seems a better place to get in contact with your leaders - Leave a message stating you need to talk to them when they're available, and work out a time from there. I know when I'm playing leaders I will do my damnest to try to be on at the time you ask.

As for personal message boards in apartments - Eh... It seems overkill. If you're not on the same playtimes as someone else, you probably don't know them well, if at all. If you have intersecting playtimes, you'll probably be able to find them at some point, or you'll be able to find someone else with better playtimes than you to get the message across.

[RogueGunslinger]

I involve off-peakers by playing at ridiculous hours for half of the week, but I'm sure not every wants to fuck up their sleep cycle like that. At the end of the day you have to get more people in your area playing if you really want to deal with the off-peak situation.

[Harmless]

Well, the point of the thread was to find a way to involve offpeakers. Get offpeakers to find more offpeakers to play with may not be an "overkill" solution but it sure is a totally useless one, no offense. "just find more friends to play with you" doesn't improve my ability to get involved with the important movers and shakers on peak.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've other posts in the thread too, you know. I'm just stating what I think should be pretty obvious. That off-peak will always be off-peak as long as we have the playerbase we do, and that major workarounds to problem aren't realistic, and that the workarounds that are realistic don't actually help the problem that much.

It's sucks but thems the breaks.

[Harmless]

Yeah. And as it has been told to me many times, the game isn't fair. So have fun with that solution I guess.

[CodeMaster]

It can be especially difficult if you're not playing peak.

I agree, and this is mostly what clan forums are for. IT'd be neat if indies had something similar they could use.

I don't think clan forums are a good way to relay IC information though. They're more for organizational purposes.

I agree with this in general.  But I did some sleuthing, and for more context here's an earlier post by Adhira on these forums:

OK to post [on ooc forums]:
-- Your availability to play, such as playtimes, timezone, and absences.
-- General information about your character which would be known by everyone in the clan such as name, rank, sdesc, where stationed.
-- Information about clan area organization (what's where), cleanup efforts, locker claims.
-- RPT announcements including OOC/IC time and place, general subject or activities.
-- OOC discussion and questions about stuff relevant to the clan such as rules, structure, IC schedules, uniforms, how to play a particular clan role.
-- IC rumors, preferably in a single thread, of the same type and nature that could be posted to a clan board found in the game. This is allowed because not all clans have rumor boards in game and because the GDB is more accessible. IC rumors should generally NOT contain every single detail or the whole truth about what happened or who did what, nor should they seek to aggrandize anyone's PC. Instead they should leave room for interpretation and encourage players to seek out more information ICly; they're clues to what's happening, not the whole story. A leader posting an IC rumor about tasks that minions should be pursuing is acceptable so long as it's very general.

(http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=39382.0)

i.e., if a leader RPs asking an NPC to relay a message to an off-peak player, I gather it would be fine to write that message (or some bastardization thereof) on the clan web forum.  This way the message has already been verbalized in game at least once, making it possible for sneaks and spies to see it... which I believe should always be possible.

To me, that seems to solve (or at least address) the communication issue for off-peak players that are in clans.

--

But realistically, what proportion of off-peak players are in clans?

My impression is that they might avoid clans because of asynchronous playtimes with leaders and, in some cases, restrictive schedules that are bearable only when you have others to play with.  (Cleaning the latrines alone wasn't particularly engaging the first time...)

So I have to imagine the staff wouldn't be too upset if you used the existing tavern message boards to relay vague messages, as long as you follow the general guidelines Adhira wrote above.

[Harmless]

I don't think the existing tavern boards work well for that purpose, because they have too far of a reach in Allanak and Tuluk (i.e., all taverns in the city) and are currently home to numerous super-important recruitment messages and event announcements that are applicable to a lot more people than private messages would be. Those other posts serve to intimidate someone away from using it for their private coded messages, and if those message boards became cluttered with private messages, it'd be a huge staff workload to trim out all the private messages over and over.

I think there just needs to be one more message board for Allanak and Tuluk. Red Storm and Luir's only have one tavern, so that's fine as is; same for other message boards that are available to unclanned PCs. But Allanak and Tuluk could use just one more. I would suggest the Red Sun Commons for Tuluk, as it is a commoner's hub already.

Yes, I am aware of the rinth board; not applicable to this problem, as it is too dangerous to use for many.

[Eyeball]

i.e., if a leader RPs asking an NPC to relay a message to an off-peak player, I gather it would be fine to write that message (or some bastardization thereof) on the clan web forum.  This way the message has already been verbalized in game at least once, making it possible for sneaks and spies to see it... which I believe should always be possible.

To me, that seems to solve (or at least address) the communication issue for off-peak players that are in clans.

So what if you want to send a personal message, instead of making it known to all in the clan?

What about the issue that it should be possible to intercept or overhear IC messages in game?

What's wrong with using some NPCs for the interaction, in game, instead passing messages through an OOC medium?

Admit it, the forum boards aren't really meant for delayed IC interaction.

[CodeMaster]

So what if you want to send a personal message, instead of making it known to all in the clan?

What about the issue that it should be possible to intercept or overhear IC messages in game?

I can totally see your point.  There isn't really a facility for that use case... and I strongly agree with you - the ability to intercept/overhear IC messages should be preserved.

What's wrong with using some NPCs for the interaction, in game, instead passing messages through an OOC medium?

Nothing!  I think such a thing would be a really cool script.  Something like:

Code Select Expand


$ contact bernie
You contact the tan, dull-eyed dwarf.

$ psi I have a message for Thrain.
You send a telepathic message:
   "I have a message for Thrain."

A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
   "Message for Thrain, go ahead."

$ psi You smell
You send a telepathic message:
   "Thrain, you smell like a scrab's armpit"

The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
   "I'll tell that to Thrain when I find him around."


...later, Thrain sees:

Code Select Expand


A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
   "I believe I have a message for you from the chuckle-faced elf."

The tan, dull-eyed dwarf sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
   "Thrain, you smell like a scrab's armpit."


Admit it, the forum boards aren't really meant for delayed IC interaction.

I agree it isn't a good fit, but it's good to be aware of the options (and how they might be improved).

[RogueGunslinger]

I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.

[Harmless]

I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.

I think this is one of those things where it has to be added to the game and given time to become part of people's routine. Nobody is going to flock to and start using any added features or tools en masse, I agree, but with enough time people will either learn to integrate it into their play, or it'll be ignored.

I personally think that without literacy as an option to leave behind significant messages to each other, that Zalanthans would be resourceful and learn to use their environment in other ways to deliver important, brief messages. we have thousands and thousands of vNPCs who clearly need more to do... we need more things for players to sink coins into, and yes, though using other PCs would be ideal, the whole problem is there aren't enough PCs to go around, particularly for off-peak players, or sporadic players.

[Eyeball]

I personally think that without literacy as an option to leave behind significant messages to each other, that Zalanthans would be resourceful and learn to use their environment in other ways to deliver important, brief messages. we have thousands and thousands of vNPCs who clearly need more to do... we need more things for players to sink coins into, and yes, though using other PCs would be ideal, the whole problem is there aren't enough PCs to go around, particularly for off-peak players, or sporadic players.

Well said.

[CodeMaster]

I like the idea of being able to have ongoing communication the more I think about it.

More spitballing... the lore around the Way could be expanded to include "ethereal packages" that float around until their recipient is around.  No need to involve NPCs.  "Messaging" could be a skill that branches off "contact..."

Code Select Expand


> message Thrain I need more scrab shells.
You attempt to leave a message in the ether for your target.


Later, when Thrain logs on - assuming he doesn't have a barrier up.

Code Select Expand


A message arrives on the unseen ether of the Way.
The message is from the chuckle-faced elf:
  "I need more scrab shells."


If there are two Thrains, that's your problem - messages could just find the recipients that match them best.  Probably half-baked and hairbrained, but it might be neat.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.

I think messenger NPCs would get used a lot actually.

[RogueGunslinger]

I doubt people would use in-game NPC's any more than they use in-game rumor boards. But I can certainly see a use for Messenger NPC's.

I think messenger NPCs would get used a lot actually.

Can't know unless they go in. And them going in is sort of a pipe dream unless you get yourself on staff and do it yourself.

Maybe I'm just being cynical.   

[Harmless]

I like the idea of being able to have ongoing communication the more I think about it.

More spitballing... the lore around the Way could be expanded to include "ethereal packages" that float around until their recipient is around.  No need to involve NPCs.  "Messaging" could be a skill that branches off "contact..."

Code Select Expand


> message Thrain I need more scrab shells.
You attempt to leave a message in the ether for your target.


Later, when Thrain logs on - assuming he doesn't have a barrier up.

Code Select Expand


A message arrives on the unseen ether of the Way.
The message is from the chuckle-faced elf:
  "I need more scrab shells."


If there are two Thrains, that's your problem - messages could just find the recipients that match them best.  Probably half-baked and hairbrained, but it might be neat.

Someone else has suggested that maybe we should be able to quit out but leave our "way presence" on for a while. You could throw off people trying to hunt you because they won't know when you're logged on and not. Likewise, you can't tell when your killers are logged on, so you never know when they might show up.

This could be a mechanism to hold onto Way messages while you're logged off as well, then check them out when you log back in.  it also serves to give people an excuse for ignoring people's Ways. you could barrier before logging off... that'd help to throw people off, especially if your barrier skill is very high. Perhaps that could negate this change, or maybe your barrier can be broken while you're logged off. Then messages could be left.

How this change would affect psionicists is confusing, though. Anyway, it'd take a lot of metagame away... so I'm for it.

..and I am always for any idea that increases the amount of PK so I would prefer this over the suggestion of a message command, though really, anything added on would be cool with me.

(made my final edit.)

[CodeMaster]

That would be really cool too.

Just to add to that idea, it would be neato if you could send Way messages to dead people too (although they can't receive them, obviously).  This way you couldn't use the Way to sniff out whether someone has recently died, altogether making the Way a little bit fuzzier and a little less meta.

[Harmless]

That would be really cool too.

Just to add to that idea, it would be neato if you could send Way messages to dead people too (although they can't receive them, obviously).  This way you couldn't use the Way to sniff out whether someone has recently died, altogether making the Way a little bit fuzzier and a little less meta.

yes, definitely. That'd also be a great addition. There are many spinoff things that could be done with Waying the dead, too, and it'd make for an interesting new mechanic to explore.

...for example, maybe psionicists could sometimes overhear messages being sent to the dead, as a way to gain information and insight into what people are up to...

man, I want this change too much. lol

[Barzalene]

Code Select Expand


The persnickety employer sends:
When I way you for three hours straight, I expect an answer.


[Zoan]

Code Select Expand


The persnickety employer sends:
When I way you for three hours straight, I expect an answer.


Sounds like my boss, except it's 'three minutes straight'.

[Jorogumo]

I'm new, and I play off-peak (UTC+9), and while the player population is usually low during my prime playing times, I haven't found it debilitating. I could see off-peak being annoying if you were in a clan full of Americans, and therefore left out of the loop on RPTs, but playing off-peak just means finding other off-peak players. I've managed to find some consistent interactions with players, and during the times I can log in during peak American times, I'm greeted with a sea of new players and plots that I can dip into at my leisure. These ideas discussed with the Way are really interesting, and could be fun to implement. Even then, though, if your only interaction with another player is leaving text strings for them to get upon login, that would get old fast. Still, I'm all for new mechanics that further connectivity between players of all time zones.

[Jinxed]

I am playing in GMT+4 timezone and even in Allanak it was a problem for me to find anything to do.
I noted that average online during my playing hours is 7-10 characters.

My first character, for example, was a member of Allanak's certain faction. During my daytime the character's schedule looked like that:
Spend the day idling at meeting place and wait for other other fellas, if I was really lucky - there would be a sole PC or even a couple. A couple is a bloody miracle to happen.
During the nights I was idling at the Gaj, with no PC character or other idlers who did not note my presence yet.
To give you a feeling how fascinating it was - I learnt to play on Armageddon fullscreen, while watching the movie in half-sized window.

In the end character died exploring the hazardous areas, because I was bored as a player.
Currently I improved my idling methoda - once in half of an hour I just attempt to contact every and each PC that my character knows.

On the other hand- it *greatly* improves the quality of roleplay. People are really trying hard just because it is a rare thing to meet another PC.

[senseofeven]

Reviving this thread because off peakers need the same love.

From the RAT thread:

I think off peakers should have the same if not THE SAME kind of opportunity for progress and promotion in ANY clan.

I'm bringing something I experienced a year or more ago where I feel like what is the point of playing in clans when I'm off peak? What's the point of clocking in time, roleplaying and grinding skills just to prep your PC to be able to do the things that he/she was aiming to be promoted to? Why are there such PC leaders who can easily shrug their shoulders and assume that off peakers aren't playing or performing the roles well enough to function or even make as an addition to their little clique? I see it as a benefit to have an offpeaker in charge to actually do something with those who are also other offpeakers.

Even saying this point blank in my face:
Quote
"I wanna see ya going on more on contracts then we'd discuss again about being promoted."

I think that's outright rude to me as a player who sometimes deliberately risk their work time (which is your usual peak) to hop on and 'try to make a presence and show that 'hey, I'm a very good prospect, give me more!'. Even at that point, me as the player has managed to drag my ass so early in my morning to attend one of your stupid boring contract rpts, just to show that I'm just as good as everyone else. Oh, did I mention also beating/fending off everyone else in the ring? Is that not good enough? I had felt that the PC leaders in that clan at one time failed me beyond salvation.

The problem is just this: Different timezone. Your promotion/performance is at the hands of your on peak PC leader who doesn't see you and doesn't really give a shit. (just because they can)

Do I want to send in a player complaint? Pretty sure it's faaaarrr too late for that though. This is just the grudges that's bubbling up and I felt like I had to make it known in the RAT thread. Now I'm not saying that there are other alternatives to do alternatives, but I think I'm most miffed because there was a problem that I couldn't figure out -how- to go around, because all the decisions actually lies on those PC leaders. I think I remember asking staff about it, they pointed me to those scumbag PC leaders.

TL;DR: Off Peakers shouldn't be discriminated in clan progression and rightfully offered alternatives to prove their worth or the same opportunities as the on peaks.

Yes, bad flashback rant over and I feel much better. Please take with a grain of salt.

At it stands and if I may be blunt, off peaks are lagging behind in clan progression (and if they had done all that they can to actually vie for the position), just to get more level of power to actually do something for other off peakers. Though that never happens because most PC positions are akin to how much your PC leader sees you and personally assess you because they want to be a jerk and hence you feel trapped and bored out of your wits.

What can be done for the off peakers? How can they become valuable to on peak and how can the on peak leaders be valuable to the off peaks?

I will say that there have been leaders who have made my off peak time very, very enjoyable because they can log in at weird hours of their time and I try to recipocrate to wake at odd hours of my own time just to participate or to give that player a break and show in my actions as a player through my PC that I am thankful for their effort. Though majority of the PC leaders, I feel (I could be wrong), don't really give a damn about off peakers just because they can.

Some RAT replies:

I think that's a valid point and maybe a topic worth discussing in its own thread so it doesn't get buried here in RAT.

edit: Perhaps with a little less vitriol towards whoever your clan leaders were. It sounds like you had a bad experience in the Byn and I imagine it can be somewhat trying to keep track of two dozen runners/troopers who all want to be promoted. Sometimes it might be difficult to tell who's an off-peaker and who's one of those folks who just log in for RPTs.

Sure, you can have all the promotions you want if staff agree that you don't take up one of the clan slots. Otherwise you end up effectively dead weight to me because I only see you 10% of the time and I'm dead weight to you because I'm not leading you because our playtimes don't sync up.

Sure, you can have all the promotions you want if staff agree that you don't take up one of the clan slots. Otherwise you end up effectively dead weight to me because I only see you 10% of the time and I'm dead weight to you because I'm not leading you because our playtimes don't sync up.

Seeing the majority of the players are on peak, this is pretty much saying to me that off peakers don't really have a place to belong in the already established clans IG. And there is no alternative route or a 'special slot' for an off peak brigade to go out and do things. I generally find myself on my own as an off peak and just playing a solo rpg. If I wanted one, I can go elsewhere for it.

I'll open up a thread just for the woes of off peakers, if there isn't any thread of them.

What I'm looking for is how do the two off peak and on peak to not become dead weight and still valuable to each other, if not then it's going to be split into two different worlds and the off peak side is generally losing. I say delegate additional responsibilities to those whom you know can log at odd hours of the time to do something for the off peakers. It doesn't have to be a 5 hour thing, it can easily even be a 30 minutes lesson, sparring, rp or even a short ride to collect rocks. Even the small things like that will make an off peaker happy because it shows that we're not forgotten and that our progress in skills especially are  not left behind due to the time difference.

@Havok: That is only fair if I myself have been just logging in for the RPTs but at the time, it was only a handful of runners, all the new ones/uncooperative ones always end up dead, and they weren't the ones deserting. If you were in my shoes, seeing what I saw, you'd truly know why my grudge have stayed and stuck with me for so long.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect leaders to be able to disconnect actual playtimes from IC presence/competence. Especially in clans with strict schedules, it doesn't make sense for them to penalize you for hiatus or being off-peak. If they want to say they won't promote you on time because your character isn't ready, that only works if the character is actually not ready.

I'd say talk to your clan staff, but personally I'd just store or quit the clan depending on what makes sense for the character. Even if I could get the staff on my side, the leader has made it clear he and I don't see eye to eye on how certain things should be played. The earlier the divorce, the happier.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect leaders to be able to disconnect actual playtimes from IC presence/competence. Especially in clans with strict schedules, it doesn't make sense for them to penalize you for hiatus or being off-peak. If they want to say they won't promote you on time because your character isn't ready, that only works if the character is actually not ready.

I'd say talk to your clan staff, but personally I'd just store or quit the clan depending on what makes sense for the character. Even if I could get the staff on my side, the leader has made it clear he and I don't see eye to eye on how certain things should be played. The earlier the divorce, the happier.

I completely agree and I hope staff would start enforcing this on the leadership sponsored roles. I've been in two leadership roles and I have never, ever put anyone down just because I don't see them. Furthermore, if they say they can do it (regardless of their skill), I let them do it. And I truly, truly try to give things for my minions to do stuff, even if it's something stupid like climb a tree to pluck 50 fruits for me over the span of a RL week. If they fail or succeed, it is then up to me to react as a leader to it.

I literally put my off peakers in Tor on a separate path and removed some of their restrictions.  Still put into the unit, still under the same command, but hey...I want you to do this scout mission for me.  This is a solo mission.  I need this done.  It's a solo mission.  While I couldn't really -promote- them to be leaders since they generally weren't over anyone, just making some little amounts of 'give' in certain things seemed to work very well.