You know, I dislike overt guild sniffing as much as the next...but it only really becomes a problem when there's something your hiding. Overall, when playing leaders...it's pretty damn nice to know what you have available, what your underlings are capable of, and what you need to pick up in order for your goals to become viable, and for you to set your goals according to what's in reach.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 01, 2010, 10:29:28 PM
You know, I dislike overt guild sniffing as much as the next...but it only really becomes a problem when there's something your hiding. Overall, when playing leaders...it's pretty damn nice to know what you have available, what your underlings are capable of, and what you need to pick up in order for your goals to become viable, and for you to set your goals according to what's in reach.
I feel it's a problem only because guilds are a purely OOC construct, and knowing OOCly that a PC isn't a merchant shouldn't doom him or her to IC suspicion or persecution. I don't think there is anything wrong with a clan leader knowing what their personnel are capable of, but suspecting them of being a thief/assassin/elementalist/etc. because they don't know how to tan hides AND carve stone is, in no uncertain terms, an abuse of OOC information.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on August 01, 2010, 11:17:51 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 01, 2010, 10:29:28 PM
You know, I dislike overt guild sniffing as much as the next...but it only really becomes a problem when there's something your hiding. Overall, when playing leaders...it's pretty damn nice to know what you have available, what your underlings are capable of, and what you need to pick up in order for your goals to become viable, and for you to set your goals according to what's in reach.
I feel it's a problem only because guilds are a purely OOC construct, and knowing OOCly that a PC isn't a merchant shouldn't doom him or her to IC suspicion or persecution. I don't think there is anything wrong with a clan leader knowing what their personnel are capable of, but suspecting them of being a thief/assassin/elementalist/etc. because they don't know how to tan hides AND carve stone is, in no uncertain terms, an abuse of OOC information.
I think there should be a movement to generally agree that guild sniffing is okay to do, but using it as grounds for suspicion of the character is not okay to do. In other words, use it for administrative purposes, but not IC purposes.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 02, 2010, 12:30:16 AM
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on August 01, 2010, 11:17:51 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 01, 2010, 10:29:28 PM
You know, I dislike overt guild sniffing as much as the next...but it only really becomes a problem when there's something your hiding. Overall, when playing leaders...it's pretty damn nice to know what you have available, what your underlings are capable of, and what you need to pick up in order for your goals to become viable, and for you to set your goals according to what's in reach.
I feel it's a problem only because guilds are a purely OOC construct, and knowing OOCly that a PC isn't a merchant shouldn't doom him or her to IC suspicion or persecution. I don't think there is anything wrong with a clan leader knowing what their personnel are capable of, but suspecting them of being a thief/assassin/elementalist/etc. because they don't know how to tan hides AND carve stone is, in no uncertain terms, an abuse of OOC information.
I think there should be a movement to generally agree that guild sniffing is okay to do, but using it as grounds for suspicion of the character is not okay to do. In other words, use it for administrative purposes, but not IC purposes.
It also sucks to be on the opposite side, as a minion, and constantly get assignments from your boss that you can't actually accomplish. I had a PC hired into a merchant house a couple years back who kept getting assigned crafting projects despite having no crafting skills. :-X
A few long agafari planks are here, sorta stacked into a table.
As a leader, what frustrates me is that my non-suited-for-the-role hires always vanish before I can make use of their actual skill set. If you're going to go through the whole process of getting clanned and hired to do something that you can't codedly do, please stick around long enough (a few RL days, at least) for me to use or at least interact with your character's actual skills and abilities. I don't want to be a guild sniffer, but I've yet to have a non-traditional hire stick around and not just be a psychotic mess. Leaders need to be sure to be open minded, but players need to make sure to offer some positive reinforcement to leaders who take risks on them. I've yet to be rewarded ICly or OOCly for a risky or unusual hire. That doesn't make me the player OR my character excited to spend the time interviewing you, getting you gear, teaching you the rules, showing you around, etc., with the knowledge that you're just going to be unhappy and store or wander into the silt because you tired of your wacky concept in a day.
The problem with guild-sniffing isn't when you reject someone who isn't qualified to do a job.
The problem is when you realize they can't fight and can't craft and then you assume that (because the remaining options are pickpocket, burglar, magicker, and worse) said character is up to no good.
Not every socialite character chooses guild_merchant.
Not every pickpocket/burglar character steals stuff.
As for magickers, if they're looking for a job in a non-magick-friendly (non-Tuluki) clan, it means they intend to stick around long enough for their coming-out-of-the-magick-closet plot to be fun and dramatic.
Personally, I think guild sniffing can be completely warrented. I've certainly done it. Certain jobs require certain skills. And certain coded guilds were designed with certain jobs in mind. I often see people complaining on here, for example, about people sniffing out rangers for hunting jobs. Well, the truth of the matter is that the best hunters -are- rangers. It's what rangers were designed for. Of course many other guilds -can- hunt, but never as good as a ranger. The ranger will always be better in certain areas, and will be able to do certain things that subguilds can't make up for. It's no different then wanting a merchant for a crafter job, or wanting a Viv as a squad healer. Especially if you're only allowed to hire X number of people. Gotta make those slots count.
This said, I've also tried to give a -little- leway when I'd been involved in such things. If I had a position I'm in charge of that I could hire as many as 3 people for, a position that warrented guild sniffing, I would uually allow one less-than-optimal guild in, so long as I had optimal guilds for the other role.
In the end, think of it like this. It's no different then RL. A persons resume goes a very long way. The qualified person is usually gonna get hired over the underqualified person.
And yes, I agree, guild sniffing for other reasons is (usually) silly, and is (often, but not always) counterproductive.
Quote from: Twilight on August 02, 2010, 12:27:14 PMI am always amazed out how quickly minions disappear/die. Is it seriously that hard to survive a couple of RL months, even if you are breaking the rules?
Sometimes it is, actually.
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 01:22:32 PMEspecially if you're only allowed to hire X number of people. Gotta make those slots count.
What is with people's problems with this lately? IT'S AN ILLUSION!!! Hire everyone you want to hire. If the staff see a problem, they will tell you. If they give you a limit and someone else comes along you want to hire, talk to the staff and give your reasons for why you should be allowed to bring another PC into the clan. Is it because this person can't craft everything you need and this new one will get the rest? Is it because this person can't log on enough so you need that person too? Stop bitching about how many people you're allowed to hire and worry about why you're hiring the people and the staff will understand, be flexible and work with you. Get over it.
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 01:22:32 PM
Personally, I think guild sniffing can be completely warrented. I've certainly done it. Certain jobs require certain skills. And certain coded guilds were designed with certain jobs in mind.
I'm sympathetic to the fact that you have actual stuff that needs done, sir. But you overestimate how Absolutely Perfect each guild is. A ranger is far from the ideal hunter until he has a lot of experience. The bloke with a crafting subguild may be perfectly adequate for much of your manufacturing work, and have much to offer you on the side. (If you're playing, say, a GMH role perfectly straight, i.e. with rangers and merchants and no dirty tricks division, well...heeh.)
You also underestimate the damage done to Armageddon when leaders start playing it like Toon World.
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 01:22:32 PM
Personally, I think guild sniffing can be completely warrented. I've certainly done it. Certain jobs require certain skills. And certain coded guilds were designed with certain jobs in mind. I often see people complaining on here, for example, about people sniffing out rangers for hunting jobs. Well, the truth of the matter is that the best hunters -are- rangers. It's what rangers were designed for. Of course many other guilds -can- hunt, but never as good as a ranger. The ranger will always be better in certain areas, and will be able to do certain things that subguilds can't make up for. It's no different then wanting a merchant for a crafter job, or wanting a Viv as a squad healer. Especially if you're only allowed to hire X number of people. Gotta make those slots count.
This said, I've also tried to give a -little- leway when I'd been involved in such things. If I had a position I'm in charge of that I could hire as many as 3 people for, a position that warrented guild sniffing, I would uually allow one less-than-optimal guild in, so long as I had optimal guilds for the other role.
In the end, think of it like this. It's no different then RL. A persons resume goes a very long way. The qualified person is usually gonna get hired over the underqualified person.
I think the issue, again, lies with using an OOC construct (guilds), in an IC context. There are maybe a
few people who refer to themselves as rangers in-game, but for the most part, people are laborers/grebbers/beggars/hunters/soldiers/artisans/merchants/aides/whores/etc.
Determining someone's in-game qualifications shouldn't involve guild sniffing in the traditional sense of the word... A simple test of skill, or supervision during a character's probationary period, should suffice in telling you whether or not they can do the job asked of them. If they can't deliver? Fire them.
Overall though, I, personally, don't have as much of a problem with people guild sniffing for hiring purposes as I do guild sniffing for discrimination/incarceration/execution... Then you're simply taking it too far and abusing OOC knowledge.
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 01:22:32 PM
And yes, I agree, guild sniffing for other reasons is (usually) silly, and is (often, but not always) counterproductive.
Which I'm glad we can agree on. Honestly, I would be seriously surprised if anyone came out and said (without a trace of sarcasm) that it's perfectly okay to do.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 02:11:50 PM
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 01:22:32 PM
Personally, I think guild sniffing can be completely warrented. I've certainly done it. Certain jobs require certain skills. And certain coded guilds were designed with certain jobs in mind.
I'm sympathetic to the fact that you have actual stuff that needs done, sir. But you overestimate how Absolutely Perfect each guild is. A ranger is far from the ideal hunter until he has a lot of experience. The bloke with a crafting subguild may be perfectly adequate for much of your manufacturing work, and have much to offer you on the side. (If you're playing, say, a GMH role perfectly straight, i.e. with rangers and merchants and no dirty tricks division, well...heeh.)
You also underestimate the damage done to Armageddon when leaders start playing it like Toon World.
Quite true, my friend. Treat the PC's like people, and you'll find guilds don't matter much.
I think there's a difference between a recruiter sniffing for the job-appropriate capabilities, and sniffing to determine the precise guild. It certainly feels different on the side of the interviewee, and I know I've been in situations where the person hiring was pointedly trying to figure out exactly what guild (and perhaps even subguild) my character was. In some cases maybe that's excusable, but I don't like it.
The fact that there are these distinct guilds and each character (apart from special apps) belongs to one of them is a purely OOC construct. So I don't think there's any reason to have characters have an awareness that PCs can be OOCly divided into distinct categories with only rare shades of gray in between.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 02, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 01:22:32 PMEspecially if you're only allowed to hire X number of people. Gotta make those slots count.
What is with people's problems with this lately? IT'S AN ILLUSION!!! Hire everyone you want to hire. If the staff see a problem, they will tell you. If they give you a limit and someone else comes along you want to hire, talk to the staff and give your reasons for why you should be allowed to bring another PC into the clan. Is it because this person can't craft everything you need and this new one will get the rest? Is it because this person can't log on enough so you need that person too? Stop bitching about how many people you're allowed to hire and worry about why you're hiring the people and the staff will understand, be flexible and work with you. Get over it.
I guess the emails I got from clan staff were an illusion too.
I think people getting all snotty about "guild sniffing" is rather funny.
IRL if you have a position open that calls for somebody with deep knowledge of a nuclear reactor, your not going to hire the guy whos skillset is acting and baking cookies.
In game is the same thing. If I need somebody to guard my soft merchant ass, I'm not going to hire somebody who specializes in breaking into apartments.
If I need 20 tandu hides a day, I'm not going to hire people who cannot skin like a pro, I don't care how well they kill things.
ETC ETC. "guild sniffing" by leader types is totally IC and realistic, and guilds are as well.
The one dude says, "Hey so uh, are you good in the desert?"
The templar says, "Are you seriously trying to guild sniff -me-?"
Quote from: X-D on August 02, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
In game is the same thing. If I need somebody to guard my soft merchant ass, I'm not going to hire somebody who specializes in breaking into apartments.
This would be a much more credible argument if clans refused to hire inexperienced workers.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: X-D on August 02, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
In game is the same thing. If I need somebody to guard my soft merchant ass, I'm not going to hire somebody who specializes in breaking into apartments.
This would be a much more credible argument if clans refused to hire inexperienced workers.
Yeah. But seriously, does anyone actually attempt to make a distinction between, for example, "general crafters" and "specialized crafters" when announcing that they will hire people with little to no experience? Because that would make no sense ICly.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 02, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
Stop bitching about how many people you're allowed to hire and worry about why you're hiring the people and the staff will understand, be flexible and work with you. Get over it.
Sometime I wonder if you do anything on these forums but troll. But thanks for the reminder of why I usually keep away from the public forums.
Back on topic, there are many factors that go into how many PCs a clan can handle, and staff suggestions/restrictions are only a part of that. For example, not all clans are set up with unlimited (or even limited) supplies of food and water. And if the staff says that it's intentional, then resources can be an issue. In clans with different types of jobs, where one area depends on another, balance is very important. For example, having ten crafters and only one hunter can lead to some very bored crafters. And lastly, and perhaps most importantly, to me at least, is that after awhile, a clan can just get too large and unmanageable. To the point it loses that close knit group feel. Which to me is the #1 draw of clan life. And something that I always try to promote.
In the end, a clan is a clan. There is know blanket answer. There's so many factors, from situation, to current staff, to the current PC leadership, that flavor, from accent to overhaul, how a clan is and operates.
I think it is wrong to let your character have any notion of what the correlations between skills are.
If you need someone who can shoot, skin, and ride, hire people who say they can shoot, skin, and ride (and test them to make sure they can). Not folks who say that they want to learn; not folks who proudly announce that "I'm a ranger!"
Quote from: Reiloth on August 02, 2010, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 02:11:50 PM
You also underestimate the damage done to Armageddon when leaders start playing it like Toon World.
Quite true, my friend. Treat the PC's like people, and you'll find guilds don't matter much.
This goes both ways. PCs need to -act- like people. If you're not properly qualified for a job, don't apply for it. If your college education is environmental engineering, don't go apply for an electrical engineering job, just because they both involve "engineering". If I've spent all my life fixing cars, and nothing but fixing cars, and I show up at an interview for a CFO position at a brokerage house, I'm not gonna get upset if I'm not taken seriously and not hired. As long as qualifications desired for a job are valid, and it so happens that only one coded guild meets all of those qualifications, and if the PC leader doing the hiring deems that's the way they want to go, then hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If your warrior/nomads, or burglar/archers or ranger/hunters aren't getting hired for that Salarr hunting job that you really want, cause the boss is guild hunting for a ranger, well then, I suggest, for your next character, you make a ranger.
And a phrase like "treat PCs like people and you'll find the guilds don't matter much" really, doesn't make sense, in a game that is strongly based around skills and coded ability. Not entirely, certainly, we are an RPO. But we also aren't a MUSH that has no coded skill sets. We aren't even a game like SoI or HL that have pick-your-own-skills characters. We're a mud that has classes. Those classes have set skills. And some classes are more suited to some things then other classes are. If at some point the the staff decide to change around the game and make it classless, so that any PC can have the skills they chose, and that skill caps are equal (or dictated by stats), and this and that, well then, the game becomes a much different place. And all of this discussion becomes moot. Until thien, coded classes are simply a fact of Armageddon life, that we all have to live with and work with and manage as best we can.
Quote from: Samira on August 02, 2010, 03:30:51 PM
Yeah. But seriously, does anyone actually attempt to make a distinction between, for example, "general crafters" and "specialized crafters" when announcing that they will hire people with little to no experience? Because that would make no sense ICly.
Because there is no simple, or sometimes not even possible, way to learn skills outside of your guild's skill tree, a certain degree of metagaming is sometimes required, and valid. The game is full of metagaming. People who start the game as grizzled mercenaries, yet their skills show them as someone who would die to a tregil. Or someone who needs to go away from the game for a couple of weeks, when their IC excuses is that they went to visit their monther in Tuluk, yet, codedly, the character never left Red Storm. Or how the cost of stabling and feeding a beetle for an hour is the same as for 70 years. Or the very fact that your beetles are still in the stables after 70 years. Metagaming is convenient and forgotten when it doesn't hinder a person. But it's often railed against the moment it makes things even slightly inconvenient for a person.
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 03:45:41 PM
If you're not properly qualified for a job, don't apply for it.
This is pretty much the only thing you just said that I agree with, but on this point I do agree heartily.
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 03:45:41 PM
Because there is no simple, or sometimes not even possible, way to learn skills outside of your guild's skill tree, a certain degree of metagaming is sometimes required, and valid.
No. That's not a particularly smart way to play even if you're a slimy powergamer, and it's sure as heck not good roleplay.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: netflix on August 02, 2010, 03:45:41 PM
Because there is no simple, or sometimes not even possible, way to learn skills outside of your guild's skill tree, a certain degree of metagaming is sometimes required, and valid.
No. That's not a particularly smart way to play even if you're a slimy powergamer, and it's sure as heck not good roleplay.
Let me ask you this. Have you ever, once, when dealing with anyone in game, used a phrase akin to "this time next week" to refer to a point roughly 1 RL day later? If so, that's metagaming.
(http://local-static1.forum-files.fobby.net/forum_attachments/0020/3336/You_keep_using_that_word_large.jpg)
We should like get our own thread for this or something.
QuoteMetagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself. In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.
Logging out is necessary. Coordinating RPTs in real life time is necessary.
Believing, in-character, that 95% of the world's population fits into one of six neat bins is not necessary and only makes the gameworld feel thinner. The stupid thing is that there's just no need to do this if you follow your own precept of hiring people who can hunt rather than people who say they they're gonna branch ranger skills.
Guild sniffing
- cheapens the immersive feeling of the game world,
- seems necessary only if you're doing other OOC things, like hiring people with no skill, and
- is much less helpful than you think it is. (Mostly because you're daft about an all-ranger hunting team, if that's our example du jour, being a cracking good idea.)
If things are not working well in-character, the solution is usually to get more in-character, not to metagame.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 04:14:57 PM
Coordinating RPTs in real life time is necessary.
Yes. But you could just as easy get a calculator out and figure out that 9pm EST tomorrow night is dawn, 19 IC days from now. You say this time next week because it's convenient. Not because it's required.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 04:14:57 PM
Guild sniffing
- cheapens the immersive feeling of the game world,
- seems necessary only if you're doing other OOC things, like hiring people with no skill, and
You are, of course, free to your opinion. As we all are, at least until the staff make an official opinion of their own. Personally, I have been told from staff past, after inquiring, that guild sniffing as fine, as long as things keep running smoothly and a certain degree of flexibility is allowed. I was actually once, to a minor degree, I'll admit, scolded for hiring someone who's coded guild didn't really fit the job they were hired for.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 04:14:57 PM
- is much less helpful than you think it is. (Mostly because you're daft about an all-ranger hunting team, if that's our example du jour, being a cracking good idea.)
Oh, I certainly agree. Going entirely, in this example, 100% ranger would be quite limiting. I'd always leave room for a little variety, as I mentioned in an earlier posting. It is, as they say, the spice of life.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 02, 2010, 04:14:57 PM
If things are not working well in-character, the solution is usually to get more in-character, not to metagame.
I'll simply point to my first first few lines of this post.
Depends on your definition of guild sniffing. If I interview you for a position in my clan, and I only have say... Hunter slots. And you can't fight, can't ride, can't skin. Sorry, I'm not going to hire you.
Go give a doctor your resume without having any actual skill or knowledge of the medical field, and see if you get the job.
The general rule is to keep it IC. It's people using their OOC knowledge that messes everything up. Like people have said already, it's fine to look for people capable of certain jobs. You're bound to work out what guild they are at some point, but keep it to yourself and don't tell your PC. If you suspect people of blatantly using large amounts of OOC information for IC purposes, just drop your Imm an email (or request I think it is these days).
Skill-sniffing is an in-character concept. I don't think anybody's really complaining about that.
For the record, I'm (upon reflection) just as opposed to guild sniffing when it's favorable to your prospective hire. "Okay, but you think you could be really good at archery if you practiced?"
...because asking if someone can use a bow is such a bad question.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 02, 2010, 09:03:17 PM
...because asking if someone can use a bow is such a bad question.
Agreed. And if you took the Archer subguild with merchant, guess who can use a bow now?
And anyone can get any mundane skill added while playing. It takes logs, it takes reports and it takes time. Mostly, it takes you not dying.
QuoteAnd anyone can get any mundane skill added while playing. It takes logs, it takes reports and it takes time. Mostly, it takes you not dying.
In theory. A good deal harder to get done than you're making it sound. It's generally done only with specific circumstance with real reason.
As far as the example, exactly. If I'm looking for an archer, then subguild archer works.
If I'm looking for an archer who can go ahead of my group of mercenaries, make sure there are no threats, and start foraging food for us, and essentially act as a scout, then yes, he can still do it, but would likely not express confidence in doing it. Here is where I say guild sniffing is okay. If someone wants to try it, they can advertise themselves as an able scout or hunter, but may find themselves fired quickly for shortcomings. The leader who is searching for a scout shouldn't be penalized for trying to make sure he's doing his job right and finding someone who can do the job he needs done.
As I said. Acceptable, aside from when someone is purposefully using that knowledge to say, 'He can't do this, this, or this, but is acting like he can. Magicker. Have him investigated."
flurry, you obviously didn't do what I said. Talk to the staff and explain why you need more people. Things can be stretched, depending on the situation. If you really do need another person and can show that you do, I'm sure staff can make an exception. Either you didn't need another person, you didn't show that you could... OR they thought that even though you needed more and could show it, that letting you bring even more PCs into the clan would imbalance things. I said staff would work with people, not that you're guaranteed to get to hire everyone you want just because you talk to the staff.
And netflix, I wasn't trolling. I have seen a high percentage of people bitching about hiring caps and doing so in public fashion is tantamount to trolling the staff, since it is a backhanded criticism of their policy. Adding to that, how you responded to me is another backhanded criticism of the staff, suggesting that they wouldn't work with you if you are being realistic, are working with them and hiring for a good reason all while not bringing imbalance to the game world because you simply have too high a percentage of the local players. They generally don't make arbitrary hiring limits that are hard and firm numbers. Trust me, because I know this as a fact. I've been in a position to see hiring caps flexed.
Anyway, that's all a derail from the original topic of guild-sniffing.
Using hiring caps, which in my opinion are a complete non-issue for the reasons I've already given, as an argument for guild-sniffing is bullshit. You can find out what someone's willing to be hired for without guild-sniffing. "What can you do for Kadius?" "I'm a good hunter. I can track and clean my kills, and not only that, I'm good at the killing." Further pursuing things... really reeks of guild-sniffing for reasons because YOU the player know what guilds get which skills and you're trying to figure out if this person is subguild hunter or guild ranger. If that isn't enough for your character, force them to sweeten the deal, but asking point-blank questions about a few key skills so that you know for sure whether the person is guild this or subguild that, it's only so you can metagame.
Oh, and Armaddict, you don't need one person to be a super-man. Why should one person have to do everything you need. Make sure you hire two people that have a variety of skills instead of two warriors and then require the third hire to be guild ranger just so you can have one person to make up for at least one poor hiring choice?
Typical first meeting with someone looking for work, whenever I'm playing a hiring-type PC:
We get into conversation, they say they're looking for work. I ask - what kind of work?
"I dunno, whatever I can find."
Me: Well, what kind of things do you do?
Them: This and that.
At this point, I have already decided not to hire them and wish them luck on their search.
If you want a job, doing something specific, and think you can actually do this specific thing, or have the skill, an interest, and the ability to get good at it, then SAY what it is. If it's something you'd rather not say in public, then whisper to my character, or otherwise indicate discomfort in discussing it in public, and I promise I'll take the hint and invite you to a private talk in the back room.
Otherewise, neither I nor my character care about the "this and that" that you're hoping to do for someone.
QuoteOh, and Armaddict, you don't need one person to be a super-man. Why should one person have to do everything you need. Make sure you hire two people that have a variety of skills instead of two warriors and then require the third hire to be guild ranger just so you can have one person to make up for at least one poor hiring choice?
That doesn't even make sense, dude. Make better hiring choices so that you don't have to hire according to guild for a good hiring choice? Isn't that hiring according to what you need all along?
Lizzie, I'm not saying you shouldn't find out what people can do. I'm saying that you shouldn't ask specific questions to find out certain key skills so that you know if someone is a certain guild or not.
Armaddict, see what I just said in this post to Lizzie. You know you need someone that can do some things... ask what they can do. If someone wants a job, they should be telling you why you should hire them. If what they give you matches with some of what you need, hire the person. Don't hire 5 people to do one job and then require the 6th guy to be able to do everything else.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 02, 2010, 09:48:42 PM
Lizzie, I'm not saying you shouldn't find out what people can do. I'm saying that you shouldn't ask specific questions to find out certain key skills so that you know if someone is a certain guild or not.
Armaddict, see what I just said in this post to Lizzie. You know you need someone that can do some things... ask what they can do. If someone wants a job, they should be telling you why you should hire them. If what they give you matches with some of what you need, hire the person. Don't hire 5 people to do one job and then require the 6th guy to be able to do everything else.
I wasn't addressing my post to you. I was just adding my 2 sids to the overall conversation.
I agree with you, and that was sort of part of my point. I'm not going to hire someone who can -only- make tools, and then someone who can -only- make arrows, and then someone who can -only- make knives. I'd rather hire someone who has some combination that allows them to make a few different things, and one other person who has a combination that allows them to make a few -other- different things. Or someone who indicates ICly that they're guild_merchant, because really, I only need -one- employee, as long as that employee is guild_merchant. If they're not, I'll have to hire more than one, to do the job that one -could- do, if they were guild_merchant. And I really don't mind hiring 2 people to do that job..as long as both of them, combined, can provide the variety of crafting skills that my character needs to hire.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 02, 2010, 09:03:17 PM
...because asking if someone can use a bow is such a bad question.
I didn't mean to suggest that. "Can use a bow" is different from "wants to train the skill." (Lots of young rangers can't use a bow worth beans. It is, however, a great way to annoy gith so that they throw things at you.)
Quote from: spawnloser on August 02, 2010, 09:20:53 PMflurry, you obviously didn't do what I said. Talk to the staff and explain why you need more people. Things can be stretched, depending on the situation. If you really do need another person and can show that you do, I'm sure staff can make an exception. Either you didn't need another person, you didn't show that you could... OR they thought that even though you needed more and could show it, that letting you bring even more PCs into the clan would imbalance things. I said staff would work with people, not that you're guaranteed to get to hire everyone you want just because you talk to the staff.
Whether a hiring limit is set in stone, or whether there's room to negotiate an extra hire or even two, the effect is similar. It's not an illusion. You absolutely cannot, as you suggested, just hire everyone that you want. And because you can't, some clan leaders are going to feel pressure (understandably) to make the most out of the limited positions they have. The problem (in my view) comes when this leads to hiring/firing decisions based on OOC factors.
To be clear, I understand that necessity of clan hiring caps. I just think we have to be mindful of the effects they have on hiring practices.
Quote from: X-D on August 02, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
..."guild sniffing" by leader types is totally IC and realistic, and guilds are as well.
Guilds are
in no way in-character. The skills a character possesses (not their potential skills), however, are in-character. It sounds like the same thing, but it really isn't.
Example: Warrior/Hunter Amos and Ranger/Scavenger Malik are, ICly, both hunters by trade. Amos, however, is the more seasoned of the two (OOCly, he has more days played), and shows up Malik frequently on their joint hunting expeditions.
At this point, Malik ICly may not even know that he is capable of eclipsing Amos as a hunter... So how could your PC, the potential employer? Can your PC forsee the future? Guild-sniffing is likely crossing the OOC/IC line here.
I realize that I may sound a little preachy here, but we aren't talking about a matter of opinion; we're talking about the rules:
Quote from: Rules - Examples of Inappropriate PlayUsing OOC information to drive the actions of your character, such as information gained through a previous character, or from another player outside the game.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that:
Quote from: General Information - Guilds
There are sixteen guilds at the present time, each with its own unique set of skills and abilities. Your guild does not directly determine your character's profession or role in the game; each guild can be played in a variety of different ways.
So, instead of seeing rangers/warriors/burglars everywhere, try to see characters for what they really are: soldiers/beggars/barmaids/whores/grebbers/hunters/stonecarvers/traders/artisans/etc.
Also, if you are in a position to hire other PCs, try to ICly judge them by what they can ICly do, or how far they develop over a certain period of time... Not by what you OOCly think their guild is.
Fixing the reply thing from the main index. Ignore me.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on August 03, 2010, 02:31:57 AM
Quote from: X-D on August 02, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
..."guild sniffing" by leader types is totally IC and realistic, and guilds are as well.
Bunch of stuff I agree with
I agree. When I interview, it's not to sniff out a guild. It's just to make sure I'm hiring someone that can do the job in some way. If I hire someone incompetant, then I might lose my spot as the guy that gives interviews for that guild. I allways look for someone that is willing to learn.
A few points to consider.
Say I am in need of a hunter. Someone who could stalk down prey, bring it down, skin it, and bring me the produce. Can you do it?
A ranger goes, yes I can do it.
The two go out into the wild. The would be hire fails to sneak up on a jozhal, making me toss it at him. Gets beat up by a jozhal, untill I finally kill it for him, and messes up the skinning. Should I not hire him then? Ofcourse I should. Because he "is" a guild ranger, he just happens to be on his 1st hour of gameplay and is most likely a newbie.
The idea of ... if the person cant do this, that, this, and that then dont hire him, doesnt work. Because most new characters, regardless of guild, are pretty useless code wise. As a leader, some guild sniffing is required. Because you have goals to achieve, and a very limited human resource pool to draw upon. You cannot truly expect to hire experienced workers. I mean you can, but you shouldnt be relying on that. No, you're hiring newly created characters.
Say you're organizing a Bahamet, Mek, wezer hunt. You gather up the people, come over and bring the critter down. Now ... whom are you going to ask to cut it? Someone who you know excels in skinning, or someone whom you're not sure about? Because the difference is significant.
Overall, my personal opinion. I am perfectly fine with guild sniffing when you're a leader. I lost track of how many times I sat at the table as a Guildie leader, trying to figure out 'how' can I use the guy infront of me. He's asking for jobs, he's asking for ways to earn money. But he cant do shit. And because I do not know what guild he is, I cant tailor a job for him that'll send him into becoming useful. So you give him standardized errands and feel that you've handled the situation half-assed. Half of them get bored, do something stupid, and die. Even though some of them could've lived and acted out their roles, with a bit of guidance.
What I seriously dislike, is a catalogue guild sniffing. As in people who dont really care, they're not hiring you or really do anything with you, but simply guild sniff you to finger you as a non mundane.
The aide-looking f-me youth whispers to you, "Keep an eye on Amos, there is ... something wrong about him. What exactly? Oh ... oh ... I dont know. Something. I get a strange feeling."
Quote from: Dar on August 03, 2010, 02:27:07 PM
The two go out into the wild. The would be hire fails to sneak up on a jozhal, making me toss it at him. Gets beat up by a jozhal, untill I finally kill it for him, and messes up the skinning. Should I not hire him then? Ofcourse I should. Because he "is" a guild ranger, he just happens to be on his 1st hour of gameplay and is most likely a newbie.
The idea of ... if the person cant do this, that, this, and that then dont hire him, doesnt work. Because most new characters, regardless of guild, are pretty useless code wise. As a leader, some guild sniffing is required. Because you have goals to achieve, and a very limited human resource pool to draw upon. You cannot truly expect to hire experienced workers. I mean you can, but you shouldnt be relying on that. No, you're hiring newly created characters.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on August 03, 2010, 02:31:57 AM
Also, if you are in a position to hire other PCs, try to ICly judge them by what they can ICly do, or how far they develop over a certain period of time... Not by what you OOCly think their guild is.
Never mind.
Here's the thing. Anyone can learn to skin well. And, with time, anyone can learn to put a gurth down. Any class can be a hunter. Yeah some are better at it then others, But anyone can do it. But if I have a limited amount of people I can have. I like to hold try outs. I bring the guy hunting. I see what they can do.
Those try outs show me alot about a charecter. How well they know the land, where there skills are, how they take directions form me. Really you should look at the overall picture for a hire, not just coded skills. I've known some great hunters, that I wouldn't hire into a noble house ever, due to there attitude, and ability to take direction.
Son, I'll make you the deal of your life. 'Pears to me that you wouldn't last a Luir's minute out here. But you want to learn, and that's, well, that's right special.
So, if you're game, I'll feed and water your mangy skin for a year, and you can train with my crew. There's only three rules: you get someone killed, I'll gut you. You run off, I'll gut you. And if you can't kill and skin a scrab this time next year, I'll stake you out on a wezer nest.
Oh, now, wait, wait, hold your lizards. D'you favor dual-wieldin' your-- no, wait. D'you need sunslit-- krathsakes, well. You ever try your hand at poisoning something?
Guild-sniffing sucks because you're trying to apply an OOC construct to an IC persona. How is that not the end of this discussion?
The "I need to make sure they're qualified!" arguments are complete BS; that's so far down on the list of hiring priorities that if that's actually a problem for you, please PM me so my next PC can come work for yours.
Have you:
1. Found someone to hire?
2. Do they match your racial/citizenship/cleanliness/personality standards?
3. Do they log on regularly?
4. Do they log on during your typical playtimes?
5. Can they follow the clan rules about staying inside the gates/not hunting alone/not going into the 'rinth to murder children/etc for more than two RL days?
6. Will the character live for more than a RL month?
7. Can the character co-exist with other PCs without destroying your clan through psychotic personal drama crap?
8. Do you have at least two other PC employees that meet the first 7 criteria?
9. Do you have a need to perform one of the very few jobs that absolutely must be performed by guild X, Y, or Z, and that can't be done by anyone with support from your other PC employees?
10. You do? Seriously?
11. Okay, fine. Ask them if they have the arche- I mean, ask them if they've ever used a bow.
If you've found a great, qualified PC, congratulations! Unless you're a Byn Sergeant, that one ranger/warrior/merchant is probably capable of handling your entire workload, so feel free to hire all the other PCs that get vague when you ask about their specific skill sets. It's not your job to play gate-keeper over what classes people are playing, and unless you're very clearly up to something shady, nobody will ever bitch about how you hired that guy who turned out to be a psionicist, so just hire people. Create an environment where your guild-mates have plenty of interaction and things are happening and you'll have a lot more fun than if you had a merchant PC churning out obsidian rings.
QuoteThe "I need to make sure they're qualified!" arguments are complete BS.
You, sir, have never run a clan. If you did, you ran it poorly and without goals, delegation to your minions, and so on and so forth.
You made your assertion, and I have made mine.
The real problem with guild sniffing and having your character react with that information is that it is metagaming. Our characters do not know about guilds and subguilds and when you change your reactions to people because, "someone that can do X, Y and Z can't also do Q unless s/he has R subguild and then still not as good as S guild" is nothing your character could possibly know. You, the player know, because you know the code. Isn't the definition of twinking, in Arm's documentation, "using code or your knowledge of code to gain an IC advantage" ? So... you using your knowledge of what guilds get what to make IC decisions to give yourself an advantage of any sort, isn't that twinky?
Then you have to consider the fact that special apps for additional skills could completely bork your assumptions. Why guild sniff when your guild sniffing could actually get you to make assumptions that are completely wrong? The thing is, you should KNOW this too.
I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.
Quote from: AI Fashion and Swag on August 03, 2010, 07:48:45 PM
I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.
This is what I was getting at with the whole deal.
A basic principle of leadership is knowing the capabilities of your crew. You don't go on a hiring spree without figuring these things out. Likewise, you don't hire endlessly for your military clan, and assign each individual hire to pick the lock of the apartment you need to get into, then fire them when they can't do it.
You find this information beforehand. You insure you're doing it correctly. Calling it 'BS' to know your crew and mold your assignments to their abilities is walking around with huge blinders on. I can understand sentiments and arguments about the smaller, finer details, but any leader who says that any sort of probing of abilities to their crew is 'complete bs' is not running things efficiently or in a manner that is optimally enjoyable to their clan. Most understand both sides in the matter.
Quote from: AI Fashion and Swag on August 03, 2010, 07:48:45 PM
I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.
I don't think anyone's arguing against that.
The issue comes when PCs (not just hiring/leader PCs, anyone) ask questions of another that result in the narrowing down of that person's guild, and then assuming they have the capability to do every single skill in that guild without asking whether that character is actually good at any of them.
If guild_X gets guild skills A, B, C, D, and I know guild_X is the only guild to get both skills A and C together, then asking a PC if they have A & C, then assuming they also have B & D, is wrong, especially if B & D have little to nothing to do with A & C.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 03, 2010, 07:52:40 PM
Quote from: AI Fashion and Swag on August 03, 2010, 07:48:45 PM
I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.
This is what I was getting at with the whole deal.
A basic principle of leadership is knowing the capabilities of your crew. You don't go on a hiring spree without figuring these things out. Likewise, you don't hire endlessly for your military clan, and assign each individual hire to pick the lock of the apartment you need to get into, then fire them when they can't do it.
You find this information beforehand. You insure you're doing it correctly. Calling it 'BS' to know your crew and mold your assignments to their abilities is walking around with huge blinders on. I can understand sentiments and arguments about the smaller, finer details, but any leader who says that any sort of probing of abilities to their crew is 'complete bs' is not running things efficiently or in a manner that is optimally enjoyable to their clan. Most understand both sides in the matter.
The funny thing is. I have seen a successfull guild burgler house guard. It took a bit, but he learned to fight.
Successfully run clans don't have to depend on guild-sniffing. I am sure a lot of people (myself included) have had clan experiences that bear that out.
I have guild-sniffed before, but it was generally when the character had no intention of selling themselves (i.e. telling me what they're good at). So then I have to find out what they are good for.
When I'm playing a boss-type, I'm not necessarily looking for someone who will be "good" at a task. I'm more looking for someone who is, or has the potential to be "capable" at the task. Such as a solid crafter who will, at some point, be able to provide a variety of types of items. Such as jewelry and clothing. Or armors and weapons. Or things made primarily of wood, such as arrows, boxes, bows, and tool handles. Maybe you can't make all of that the day I hire you, but if that's what I'm looking for, then I expect that you will be capable of it in the future. The OOC translation for that is, if it ain't on your skills list now, I hope you can branch it. Because I'm needing someone with those coded skills. I don't need another secret vivaduan/jeweler, or assassin/clothworker. If I did, I wouldn't waste time looking for someone who can make a variety of crafts.
Quote from: Rotten on August 03, 2010, 08:07:44 PM
I have guild-sniffed before, but it was generally when the character had no intention of selling themselves (i.e. telling me what they're good at). So then I have to find out what they are good for.
Don't hire them. They obviusly don't want the job.
Quote from: AI Fashion and Swag on August 03, 2010, 07:48:45 PM
I can accurately say that I am within my IC rights to fire people if they cannot perform the job I hired them to perform IG.
Certainly true! If someone is unable to perform the duties their position requires, firing them is probably a good idea, and certainly not poor form as far as I am concerned. Nor is asking if a character has any skill weaving baskets or sewing during an interview, if those are the skills that the position requires.
Asking similar questions to try and discern someone's OOC guild, and using that information to make IC decisions, is where the problem arises. For instance, asking someone if they are able to find food in the desert when it isn't a requirement of the position.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 03, 2010, 07:52:40 PM
This is what I was getting at with the whole deal.
A basic principle of leadership is knowing the capabilities of your crew. You don't go on a hiring spree without figuring these things out. Likewise, you don't hire endlessly for your military clan, and assign each individual hire to pick the lock of the apartment you need to get into, then fire them when they can't do it.
You find this information beforehand. You insure you're doing it correctly. Calling it 'BS' to know your crew and mold your assignments to their abilities is walking around with huge blinders on. I can understand sentiments and arguments about the smaller, finer details, but any leader who says that any sort of probing of abilities to their crew is 'complete bs' is not running things efficiently or in a manner that is optimally enjoyable to their clan. Most understand both sides in the matter.
Guild sniffing may be efficient, but it's also an abuse of OOC information. As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are other, more appropriate ways to handle things, although it may not be as immediate as sniffing out a PC's guild during an interview. One could argue that ignoring your character's condition and crafting all day and night is efficient too, but it's also against the rules.
By advocating guild sniffing, you're essentially arguing that it's okay to break the rules because it makes you a more effective leader, when all you are really doing is selectively picking the classes you think you need in order for your clan to "win". Instead of being uncreative and abusing OOC information to achieve success, perhaps you should refine your leadership and interviewing skills?
Quote from: flurry on August 03, 2010, 08:00:56 PM
Successfully run clans don't have to depend on guild-sniffing. I am sure a lot of people (myself included) have had clan experiences that bear that out.
That has been my experience as well. Over the past nine or so years, I've been in popular, highly successful clans whose leaders didn't resort to guild sniffing. If you must rely on guild sniffing to be a successful leader, you're obviously doing something wrong. I was also able to play a couple of middle-management leadership roles more recently, and I didn't find it too hard to hire the right people.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 03, 2010, 08:17:51 PM
When I'm playing a boss-type, I'm not necessarily looking for someone who will be "good" at a task. I'm more looking for someone who is, or has the potential to be "capable" at the task. Such as a solid crafter who will, at some point, be able to provide a variety of types of items. Such as jewelry and clothing. Or armors and weapons. Or things made primarily of wood, such as arrows, boxes, bows, and tool handles. Maybe you can't make all of that the day I hire you, but if that's what I'm looking for, then I expect that you will be capable of it in the future. The OOC translation for that is, if it ain't on your skills list now, I hope you can branch it. Because I'm needing someone with those coded skills. I don't need another secret vivaduan/jeweler, or assassin/clothworker. If I did, I wouldn't waste time looking for someone who can make a variety of crafts.
That makes sense, and there is no harm in asking potential employees if they feel confident they can learn to sew, or make jewelry, or craft armor. In fact, these are the questions you probably should be asking, rather than trying to figure out whether or not they can speak Cavilish (unless the job requires it). If it turns out they are untrainable, kick their asses out on the streets.
I won't deny that there's more risk involved, but, just as it is in real life, when you hire an untrained worker, the best you can do is hope that they are able to pick things up as good as they claim they can. If they can't, you fire them.
Speaking of real-world analogies, people have likened guilds to resumes; if that's the case, would you put:
- Might eventually be able to learn how to code in C.Or...
- Barely able to operate a fax/copier, and messes up most of the time....On your resume? Maybe if you didn't really want the job. It's a poor analogy, at best.
I'm disappointed by how many people are simply failing to acknowledge that guilds are OOC constructs, and that guild sniffing is an abuse of OOC information. Nobody is disputing it... They're simply avoiding the subject and advocating guild sniffing anyway. If I see any obvious cases of guild sniffing in the future, I'm going to report them as a violation of the rules. It is my hope that the staff will handle them accordingly.
EDIT: Added horizontal rules so people can pick through only the sections they find relevant.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 03, 2010, 07:37:16 PM
QuoteThe "I need to make sure they're qualified!" arguments are complete BS.
You, sir, have never run a clan. If you did, you ran it poorly and without goals, delegation to your minions, and so on and so forth.
You made your assertion, and I have made mine.
More of my characters have been in leadership positions than have not; some were successful, some were not.
My experiences with leadership in this game, both as a leader and an underling, is that the best leadership attributes are availability, reliability, and dedication and very little to do with another character's class. What kind of goals are you setting, and delegation are you doing, that requires you to know that your underlings are class X, or class Y? I can't think of any. Does that make me a bad leader, or, and I mean no offense, is that a reflection of your narrow expectations of other players?
If I'm in a leadership role and I'm dealing with a new player, chances are good that they'll wear their class on their sleeve, and I won't have to do any guild-sniffing, and I can give them WoW-style goals ("Bring me 10 gortok pelts! Here's a bag of obsidian: Go make me 50 arrowheads!") that will help them learn their class and the game. If I'm dealing with a non-new player, however, I'll give them goals specific to their role and character, but not their class. Moreover, give me a few days with any character in the game, and I'll probably be able to narrow down their class anyway without ever asking them a single question about their background, or tasking them with a single thing, and then I'll be able to utilize their abilities without guild-sniffing.
If I'm playing a Kadian merchant, and someone comes to me for a job as a hunter, then that's the job I'll consider them for. It doesn't matter if they're a ranger, a Whiran, or a pick-pocket. If, after a few weeks, it's clear that they have no aptitude for hunting then I won't send them out hunting kryl, but chances are good I'll expect them to keep training, and let them continue to mooch off my pay roll. I'm playing a game, not running a Fortune 500 company, and that character's
presence is worth more to me than their ability to shoot a bow. If Amos can't bring me 20 gurth shells, Malik can, so I don't
need Amos to be productive as a hunter. If Amos could do it, that would be super, but our fortunes will not rise or fall based on him alone.
It's all about playing a role, not a class.
Edited to remove.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 03, 2010, 08:57:03 PM
QuoteIf I'm in a leadership role and I'm dealing with a new player, chances are good that they'll wear their class on their sleeve, and I won't have to do any guild-sniffing, and I can give them WoW-style goals ("Bring me 10 gortok pelts! Here's a bag of obsidian: Go make me 50 arrowheads!") that will help them learn their class and the game. If I'm dealing with a non-new player, however, I'll give them goals specific to their role and character, but not their class. Moreover, give me a few days with any character in the game, and I'll probably be able to narrow down their class anyway without ever asking them a single question about their background, or tasking them with a single thing, and then I'll be able to utilize their abilities without guild-sniffing.
...wait. This whole discussion is about -asking- for skill information? I thought that it was about paying attention knowing things about people you hire, whether that takes the first IC year of their employment or not. :o
To my understanding, this discussion was about fishing for OOC information (a PC's guild) and using it to influence hiring decisions. Otherwise known as guild sniffing.
I can think of another clan leader who played similarly to how Old Kank described in his post. I remember us hitting our personnel capacity, being involved in some
insane plots, and generally having a lot of fun.
Some of you guys seem anxious to help out "young" characters who (probably) have coded potential. But I think it's okay for unskilled characters to have few employment options. If you can afford to be choosy, by all means do.
Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate). Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work. Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?
It's not a bad thing to push wannabe-guards into the Byn, or for wannabe-crafters to have to scrabble their way up to that coveted position with House Salarr.
There is a big difference between guild sniffing and qualifying someone icly for a job position. I think some people on both sides are getting the two mixed up and that's part of the dispute.
I like guild sniffing and I like that it's very hard to hide the fact that your psionicist is a pisonicist and not actually a crafter/hunter/whatever. If as many people who tried to hide their fancy guild (and a lot of people try) actually succeeded at it this game would be like a comic book with a seemingly normal characters possessing mounds of secret powers in every house, bar and alley. Red Storm would be the x-men base, more than it is already.
I enjoy the available guilds anyways and like the challenge of trying to accomplish tasks and strategize within their limitations.
I also like that if my ranger wants to join a clan, he will get picked over some nilazi looking for a free ride until he gets badass because the employer can discern who's useful.
I like this thread. Seems like a lot of people are very candidly sharing their thoughts on a subject, one that's not easy to discuss.
QuoteIf you can afford to be choosy, by all means do.
That's a factor as well.
Quote from: jhunter on August 03, 2010, 09:14:44 PM
There is a big difference between guild sniffing and qualifying someone icly for a job position. I think some people on both sides are getting the two mixed up and that's part of the dispute.
That's a good point...
Clarification of what I think guild sniffing is:
- Attempting to determine someone's guild with the intent of using that information to influence in-character decisions.
Clarification of what I do not think guild sniffing is:
- Asking a character ICly if they are able to perform a necessary task.
- Asking a character ICly if they think they might be able to learn how to perform a certain task, with time.
Quote from: roughneck on August 03, 2010, 09:15:45 PM
I like guild sniffing and I like that it's very hard to hide the fact that your psionicist is a pisonicist and not actually a crafter/hunter/whatever. If as many people who tried to hide their fancy guild (and a lot of people try) actually succeeded at it this game would be like a comic book with a seemingly normal characters possessing mounds of secret powers in every house, bar and alley. Red Storm would be the x-men base, more than it is already.
Should your character (not you) be able to determine that other characters are burglars, psionicists, or magickers by the simply fact that they can't perform certain tasks? Just because we, as players, know that guilds exist, doesn't mean that our characters do. I hope that you are failing to make this distinction out of ignorance and not out of a blatant disregard for the game's OOC guidelines.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 03, 2010, 09:10:42 PM
Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate). Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work. Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?
Because I won't have employees, otherwise, especially when it comes to crafters.
I think much of the problem can be avoided by people applying to these positions saying they have experience doing something if they have the coded skill for it, and saying that they don't have experience doing something if they don't have the coded skill. Something like that.
Quote from: WagonsHo on August 03, 2010, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 03, 2010, 09:10:42 PM
Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate). Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work. Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?
Because I won't have employees, otherwise, especially when it comes to crafters.
So True. Once a crafted gets out of the Newb phase, there very self sufficiant in ways of making the black.
But I would still love for a crafter to come to me and be a newb and be like " Here, i made this comb and chest, Look at my workmanship"
I'de hire them on the spot.
Quote from: Samira on August 03, 2010, 10:01:18 PM
I think much of the problem can be avoided by people applying to these positions saying they have experience doing something if they have the coded skill for it, and saying that they don't have experience doing something if they don't have the coded skill. Something like that.
I think that would help, yes. To my recollection, I've only twice in my long career had a PC apply for a job that they weren't qualified for, and one was the Byn.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on August 03, 2010, 09:36:39 PM
Quote from: roughneck on August 03, 2010, 09:15:45 PM
I like guild sniffing and I like that it's very hard to hide the fact that your psionicist is a pisonicist and not actually a crafter/hunter/whatever. If as many people who tried to hide their fancy guild (and a lot of people try) actually succeeded at it this game would be like a comic book with a seemingly normal characters possessing mounds of secret powers in every house, bar and alley. Red Storm would be the x-men base, more than it is already.
Should your character (not you) be able to determine that other characters are burglars, psionicists, or magickers by the simply fact that they can't perform certain tasks? Just because we, as players, know that guilds exist, doesn't mean that our characters do. I hope that you are failing to make this distinction out of ignorance and not out of a blatant disregard for the game's OOC guidelines.
You're about as tactful as a hammer and no, I don't fail to make the distinction between myself and my character.
Merely saying I like that it's difficult to take a character that has devoted his life to obscure and arcane mysteries yet pass as someone who's devoted their life to trade work. Also that it makes sense that Salarr hires people who can skin and the byn promotes people who can fight and lets the rest fend for themselves.
Sorry if I communicated something else, I see how my post could be understood differently.
Quote from: WagonsHo on August 03, 2010, 09:52:29 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 03, 2010, 09:10:42 PM
Noble houses that hire soldiers really should be hiring people with a resume (or close connections to the estate). Merchant houses should hire hunters who have stalked and killed game before, and crafters who can show several examples of their work. Unless your clan specifically has a training division, should you really be training newbies?
Because I won't have employees, otherwise, especially when it comes to crafters.
This was kind of my point several posts back. Forget qualifications. Between the low playerbase numbers, the high mortality rate, the big world, the ~6 playing locations, and the number of clans, it's hard enough to just hire people in general without trying to find that person perfectly suited for the job.
All debating aside, I think it's worth pointing out that some of the best clans in the game have been the sort that just hire pretty much indiscriminately, seeing who sticks around more than a few weeks, and then working with that.
Quote from: roughneck on August 03, 2010, 10:15:00 PM
You're about as tactful as a hammer and no, I don't fail to make the distinction between myself and my character.
Merely saying I like that it's difficult to take a character that has devoted his life to obscure and arcane mysteries yet pass as someone who's devoted their life to trade work.
Sorry if I communicated something else, I see how my post could be understood differently.
I'm sorry... I probably should have been a bit more polite in my response. Still, using your example, the point remains that being a magicker doesn't automatically mean that someone has "devoted his life to obscure and arcane mysteries", unless you are talking about sorcerers. Some elementalists aren't even aware of their power; why should your character be? If anything, people should be stringing up your character for being a mind-bender at the same time the elementalist you sniffed out is getting gemmed.
The easiest way lack of skills in a particular area denotes just that: a lack of skill. Extrapolating "magicker" (or any other guild) from that is abusing OOC information, as in the game world, the things we know as "guilds" or "classes" do not exist.
Also remember that PCs can take on (with the exception of slaves and a few others) almost any role. Sometimes jewelers are simply jewelers, and, for one reason or another, never diversify. Some take on whoring. Others, begging. Correct or not, ICly labeling these people as
<insert undesirable race/class here> based on information gleaned from guild sniffing is, again, disregarding the game's OOC guidelines.
Also, you have to keep in mind that many people special app for characters that have some of the normal skills for their guild removed and others added, making guild sniffing a much less certain thing than people seem to think.
Allowing people to select a 'Joe Commoner' guild that just has the common skills (e.g. contact, ride, etc.) and a subguild could go a long way to get rid of the "he can't fight/shoot arrows/hide/barter/speak cavalish aieee! he's a magicker or worse" sort of reactions.
Actually, I can recall times in game when other characters specifically asked probing questions to determine what guild my character was.
From that point on, I began using the uncoded version of skills specifically to throw people off. For example, scan, sneak. These two alone will throw a major cog in the wheel if you are anything other than a Ranger, and if you are a Ranger, using sneak in the city will also throw people off.
Because let's be honest - anyone can scan, sneak, and hide. You don't need to be part of a guild for that. So if you have people sniffing you out throw a sabot in their machine.
I use coded_skills dependent upon my character's mood/situation - Weither or not he has it as a personal skill.
IRL, I don't have the skill_sing but when I get in the shower, that doesn't stop me from spamming it - Badly.
Actually, it takes about 15 minutes (RL) for you to find a hiding spot if you try to hide when you don't have the skill. So you can't even attempt to fail at it, unless everyone in the room you're trying to fool is extremely patient.
Quote from: gfair on August 05, 2010, 02:38:00 PM
Actually, I can recall times in game when other characters specifically asked probing questions to determine what guild my character was.
From that point on, I began using the uncoded version of skills specifically to throw people off. For example, scan, sneak. These two alone will throw a major cog in the wheel if you are anything other than a Ranger, and if you are a Ranger, using sneak in the city will also throw people off.
Because let's be honest - anyone can scan, sneak, and hide. You don't need to be part of a guild for that. So if you have people sniffing you out throw a sabot in their machine.
Heh, yeah.
Throwing in a backstab or a kick every now and then always throws 'em for a loop. x]
Why don't we have an Average Amos guild?
Why does everyone have to have the potential to be a heroic warrior, or deadly assassin, or mighty magicker?
Sometimes an elf on the street is just a slubby elf.
Why does potential automatically keep someone from being an average Amos?
Just don't use/practice your skills.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2010, 05:06:16 PM
Why does potential automatically keep someone from being an average Amos?
Just don't use/practice your skills.
It's the difference between being a warrior that never tried and just being some guy.
What difference is that?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2010, 05:10:27 PM
What difference is that?
Why would you oppose an Average Amos guild? Don't choose it if you don't want it.
Let the people who decide to play Average Amos not have to scroll through a list of killing talents when they look at their skills list.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 05, 2010, 05:11:06 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2010, 05:10:27 PM
What difference is that?
Why would you oppose an Average Amos guild? Don't choose it if you don't want it.
Let the people who decide to play Average Amos not have to scroll through a list of killing talents when they look at their skills list.
....Because any guild can be an Average Amos guild.
As Moe said, just don't practice your skills. >_>
Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 05, 2010, 05:14:45 PM
As Moe said, just don't practice your skills. >_>
Not true. If you choose the warrior guild, some skills will still automatically apply.
Same for several other guilds. Pick a merchant? You'll know cavalish, like it or not.
Maybe not for a magicker, but then, not everyone has the karma to pick one of those. And they are still magickers so far as the game is concerned, even if they never utter a magickal syllable.
So... try burglar? That's a great guild for an Average Amos.
I suspect that the staff, if asked real nice, would be willing to remove a few of your skills without a special app.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2010, 05:20:47 PM
So... try burglar? That's a great guild for an Average Amos.
Still has weapons skills. Swing a sword? You benefit.
Still has its puny starting offense and defense (presumably).
Quote from: brytta.leofa
I suspect that the staff, if asked real nice, would be willing to remove a few of your skills without a special app.
I did this once. The staff member that responded couldn't actually remove allundean from my half elf's skills list, only set it to really, really suck.
But anyhow, weigh bugging the staff each time you or anyone else just want Amos against having a Amos guild.
???
I really don't get it. Your Average Amos needs to be so bad at combat he doesn't know which end to hold the sword?
If burglar's combat skills are too good for you, how about pickpocket?
Good grief.
I'll bet if your roofs springs a leak, you guys just put out pots and call it good enough. :D
I'm not trying to give you grief. I'm just being your friendly neighborhood Marauder Moe. I see my fellow player(s) having a problem: they want to play an "Average Amos", but don't know how. I'm trying to show them so they can begin their Average Amos Non-Adventures right away, rather than having to wait for the staff to notice, debate, decide, and then only maybe implement a brand new guild to satisfy this niche need.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 05, 2010, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2010, 05:20:47 PM
So... try burglar? That's a great guild for an Average Amos.
Still has weapons skills. Swing a sword? You benefit.
Still has its puny starting offense and defense (presumably).
Why are you complaining that you can get better with a sword if you use it? I mean seriously, if you use anything, over time, you will get better at it. At least IRL.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
If burglar's combat skills are too good for you, how about pickpocket?
I think pickpockets' combat skills are
better.
Quote from: jstorrie on August 05, 2010, 07:39:34 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
If burglar's combat skills are too good for you, how about pickpocket?
I think pickpockets' combat skills are better.
Yep.
So, basically - What you want, Salt Merchant, is to play an "avatar" character with no other purpose other then to simply exist.
Why not pick some guild at random them do that fail-all skill's thing. You -can- intentionally fail at everything you do & I'm pretty sure that includes those passive-active combat skills.
I thought the point of a commoner guild would be to stop guild sniffing... Did we all lose sight of the topic again?
Hrm. I'm...kind of against this sort of thing. But...to help with the guild sniffing problem that there is, apparently...I'll go ahead and see if it's well received.
Subguilds:
Soldier - Slashing weapons (novice)
Kick (low journeyman)
Bruiser - Bludgeoning weapons (novice)
Bash (low journeyman)
Swashbuckler - Piercing weapons (novice)
disarm (low journeyman)
Just so they can hide in clans better? Or something?
Quote from: Armaddict on August 08, 2010, 04:58:19 PM
Hrm. I'm...kind of against this sort of thing. But...to help with the guild sniffing problem that there is, apparently...I'll go ahead and see if it's well received.
Subguilds:
Soldier - Slashing weapons (novice)
Kick (low journeyman)
Bruiser - Bludgeoning weapons (novice)
Bash (low journeyman)
Swashbuckler - Piercing weapons (novice)
disarm (low journeyman)
Just so they can hide in clans better? Or something?
I'd like something like this.
Let's not make warriors even less useful, please?
Because there being an archer subclass, a hunter subclass, a rebel subclass, and so on...have made rangers less useful.
How does it make them less useful, again?
Every half-giant non-warrior would pick bruiser, guaranteed.
At any rate:
1) Giving subguilds weapon skills wouldn't matter, because nobody notices lack of offense. (I should say: it wouldn't really matter with respect to guild-sniffing. Obviously it would make them better offensively with that weapon type.)
2) Giving subguilds different mixtures of currently primary-guild-only skills would only confuse people for as long as it takes for them to read the helpfiles on the various subguilds.
Quote1) Giving subguilds weapon skills wouldn't matter, because nobody notices lack of offense. (I should say: it wouldn't really matter with respect to guild-sniffing. Obviously it would make them better offensively with that weapon type.)
There's an important difference that having the weapon skill at a minimal level does, and I'm sure you know what it is, so it helps someone without weapon skills to blend in.
Quote2) Giving subguilds different mixtures of currently primary-guild-only skills would only confuse people for as long as it takes for them to read the helpfiles on the various subguilds.
It's not supposed to confuse them, it's supposed to muddy the water. It gives time for people who are trying to avoid detection, because a blatant guild sniffer needs to determine whether or not it's just the subguild or not.
QuoteEvery half-giant non-warrior would pick bruiser, guaranteed.
I wouldn't consider that a bad thing, considering the other skills they'd need to give up from a subguild in order to get it.
All in all, I'm not 100% behind the idea, but was trying to appeal to my ability to compromise. :P
I just don't think that it would help.
Sure they could say in the interview 'I can bash/disarm people!'. Why any employer would want to know that, I don't know. I guess they could also say 'I can use a sword!', but anyone can say that. They could also try using their very modest weapon/bash/disarm skill in sparring after they get hired. But anyone who has ever been in a military clan and who has sparred newbie warriors is probably going to be able to tell that, even though they're spamming disarm at you, the new guy is probably not a newbie warrior.
Aren't "guilds" just a holdover from DikuMUD? Let's just pick the skills we want from a list at chargen and be on our way.
I like guilds :/
Quote from: MeTekillot on August 15, 2010, 08:11:39 AM
I like guilds :/
Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.
Quote from: nihilist on August 15, 2010, 08:18:05 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on August 15, 2010, 08:11:39 AM
I like guilds :/
Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.
The problem with that is..well there's a few. First, they're not gonna rip out the guild system in Arm v.1 (which is really Arm v.2; v.1 was a hack -n- slash). For Reborn (v.2 or v.3, depending on whether or not you count the hack-n-slash as the first version), they'll be doing tiered guild systems.
The second, is if you let people pick any skills, there will invariably be people picking skills that a) make no sense ICly but b) are combined to make uber leet PCs of deth & destrukshun and turn the game back into the hack-n-slash that it once was. It will attract people who like that kinda shit, to the exclusion of roleplay. When you build the RP around the code, you end up with people who play the code, and not the character. When you build the code around the RP, you end up with people who play the character, within the confines of the code. When you build the RP without the code, you end up with a mush. So we're the ones in the middle. We got code that is designed to support roleplay, rather than replace it. So we need a skill system that does the same.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 15, 2010, 10:07:38 AM
Quote from: nihilist on August 15, 2010, 08:18:05 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on August 15, 2010, 08:11:39 AM
I like guilds :/
Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.
The problem with that is..well there's a few. First, they're not gonna rip out the guild system in Arm v.1 (which is really Arm v.2; v.1 was a hack -n- slash). For Reborn (v.2 or v.3, depending on whether or not you count the hack-n-slash as the first version), they'll be doing tiered guild systems.
The second, is if you let people pick any skills, there will invariably be people picking skills that a) make no sense ICly but b) are combined to make uber leet PCs of deth & destrukshun and turn the game back into the hack-n-slash that it once was. It will attract people who like that kinda shit, to the exclusion of roleplay. When you build the RP around the code, you end up with people who play the code, and not the character. When you build the code around the RP, you end up with people who play the character, within the confines of the code. When you build the RP without the code, you end up with a mush. So we're the ones in the middle. We got code that is designed to support roleplay, rather than replace it. So we need a skill system that does the same.
I agree. Classless systems take out the built-in weaknesses of characters and promote more focus on the coded mechanics than otherwise would exist, IMO.
Quote from: jhunter on August 15, 2010, 11:03:55 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on August 15, 2010, 10:07:38 AM
Quote from: nihilist on August 15, 2010, 08:18:05 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on August 15, 2010, 08:11:39 AM
I like guilds :/
Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.
The problem with that is..well there's a few. First, they're not gonna rip out the guild system in Arm v.1 (which is really Arm v.2; v.1 was a hack -n- slash). For Reborn (v.2 or v.3, depending on whether or not you count the hack-n-slash as the first version), they'll be doing tiered guild systems.
The second, is if you let people pick any skills, there will invariably be people picking skills that a) make no sense ICly but b) are combined to make uber leet PCs of deth & destrukshun and turn the game back into the hack-n-slash that it once was. It will attract people who like that kinda shit, to the exclusion of roleplay. When you build the RP around the code, you end up with people who play the code, and not the character. When you build the code around the RP, you end up with people who play the character, within the confines of the code. When you build the RP without the code, you end up with a mush. So we're the ones in the middle. We got code that is designed to support roleplay, rather than replace it. So we need a skill system that does the same.
I agree. Classless systems take out the built-in weaknesses of characters and promote more focus on the coded mechanics than otherwise would exist, IMO.
That and skill-sniffing would be the next big complaint.
What's wrong with just lying? If someone is guild-sniffin you, tell them you can do various skills outside your skillset but somehow always manage to suck at them... ;D
The powerfully-muscled elf says, in allundean:
"Yeah, I make flowers and stuff...so..."
Quote from: Lithium on August 18, 2010, 10:37:21 PM
The powerfully-muscled elf says, in allundean:
"Yeah, I make flowers and stuff...so..."
The powerfully-muscled elf says, adding unnecessarily, a dab of spittle flying from his mouth, in allundean:
"But no wagons!"
I think this entire thread is an example of "why have guilds" in the first place.
An open-ended, choose skills from the beginning system would cause guild sniffing to be obsolete.(same restrictions for karma as races/classes are now).
Guild-sniffing is also a problem that is caused by experienced, veteran players. I myself don't even know what a merchant's starting skills should be, or anything of that sort. I think I've only branched a few skills my entire playing time.
The point is the guild-sniffing issue comes from veterans, which is a big crappy, since the veterans should be the ones who know better, right?
As for using RL as an example: If I lie on my resume, and say I can program c++ and use someone else's work as an example, then get hired... I'm going to be fired within a week.
It should be the same way for in-game. If you hire me to make Stone Product A, and I can't keep up, well... fire me. But don't just "guild-sniff" me and realize I couldn't possibly do the job, if I have proof, or a convincing enough story to make it seem like I can do it. I think this is losing tremendous potential for story and plot development.
Hell, maybe I get hired, I realize I'm in deep shit because you might throw me in jail, or I might be shunned by your house forever.... so I decide to start stealing things, paying for another stone-worker to make the things I need made...
Who knows? Let the possibilities run their course.
Quote from: AreteX on August 25, 2010, 01:06:56 AM
As for using RL as an example: If I lie on my resume, and say I can program c++ and use someone else's work as an example, then get hired... I'm going to be fired within a week.
It should be the same way for in-game. If you hire me to make Stone Product A, and I can't keep up, well... fire me. But don't just "guild-sniff" me and realize I couldn't possibly do the job, if I have proof, or a convincing enough story to make it seem like I can do it. I think this is losing tremendous potential for story and plot development.
Hell, maybe I get hired, I realize I'm in deep shit because you might throw me in jail, or I might be shunned by your house forever.... so I decide to start stealing things, paying for another stone-worker to make the things I need made...
Problem is. Your IRL example doesnt work in game. If you hire a merchant straight out of chargen into house Kadius. That merchant will not be able to do a single thing that Kadius is known for, for making. Not one, zip, zero, nothing. Only later, after they branch some amount of skills, will they be able to do something that Kadius is known for.
So your example doesnt work, because everyone starts with shitty skills, even if they 'do' fit the guild. So you cant (in some cases) just lie and claim yourself to be a certain guild when you're not. Because 'nobody' is. Nobody out of chargen anyway. It's very rare that a few week/month charas old get guild sniffed. I'm sure there is a dozen of established assassin/hunters out there (hypothethical, I have no idea about the 'current' ic stats), and they have no problems of getting themselves hired into Kadian/Salarr as if they're rangers. It's mostly the newly created ones that get the most guild sniffing. Sadly, partly it's because that's the easiest time to figure out non-mundanes.
To be honest. I imagine in 2.Arm semi/classless system. Someone will eventually invent an agreement with some local militia. That if someone hires another and they fail to fulfill their promised talent within x amount of time, the militia insta kills them, no warning. Then make sure it's known to any potential employees.
Personally I love playing charas that are jack of all trades. People spend 'months' trying to figure me out. And it's so fun to watch them try. My record is being called a sorceror within one week of my gameplay.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 18, 2010, 11:26:26 PM
Quote from: Lithium on August 18, 2010, 10:37:21 PM
The powerfully-muscled elf says, in allundean:
"Yeah, I make flowers and stuff...so..."
The powerfully-muscled elf says, adding unnecessarily, a dab of spittle flying from his mouth, in allundean:
"But no wagons!"
This is my next PC.
We've already been told there will not be a classless system in Arm 2.0. I'm happy about this. I do everything I can to confound people when they guild-sniff, and I highly encourage people to special app for characters that don't have a few skills they normally would and a few extra skills instead.
Also, just because someone has played long enough to branch and knows a few branches doesn't mean that they're truly a veteran. If you want to be able to point at someone and say, "That person is a veteran," find yourself a mul/psi/sorc/nilazi in game and do it. That's about the only way you can be guaranteed of accuracy.
Ha, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.
I'd go one further and say that most people who are really vets a code probably get stuck at around 4 or 5 karma and get no further, because the compulsion to value chunk over fluff is just too strong.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 25, 2010, 09:04:57 PMHa, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.
Which is awesome. They're not trying to win the game.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 25, 2010, 09:04:57 PM
Ha, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.
Yeah, we refer to those 'people' as Immortals.
You guys can be such snotty brats.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 25, 2010, 09:04:57 PM
Ha, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.
Probably true, but extensive code knowledge isn't necessarily all that important in a game like this. I'm sure it enhances the experience for some people, but not so much for others.
To take it back to the point about guild sniffing, I don't think that requires much knowledge apart from what anyone's going to get from a little experience playing.
Most of what I ever had to say about guild sniffing was encapsulated in this post from 2008:
Guild sniffing will definitely be harder to accomplish in Armageddon 2.0, but one of the problems in the current iteration is that it's propagated by
both sides -- employer and employee.
Taken from another thread:
Quote from: LoD on October 23, 2007, 12:30:12 PM
The problem that employers have is several players are trying to pass off their character as one thing while being another. This becomes frustrating and problematic for the employer, because of discussions that go like this:
Employer: So, you want to join the House?
Hire: Yes.
Employer: Well, how do you think you'd be able to serve?
Hire: I can do whatever you want me to do.
Employer: Sure, but what have you done in the past - what are you good at?
Hire: Little bit of this, little bit of that really.
Employer: Well, do you have any experience in a specific area?
Hire: Well, mostly I've just done odd jobs for a few folks here and there.
Employer: What kind of odd jobs?
Hire: Oh, just run of the mill work.
This is infuriating to employers that simply want to know how they can use you in the organization. It's not too much to ask to at least be realistic when describing your strengths and weaknesses. You don't have to say, "I'm an assassin!" -- but you should at least indicate whether you know the sharp end of a sword, would be of ANY use standing watch on a caravan, or know how to make a table. You wouldn't walk into an interview today and expect to get hired with those kinds of dodgy answers to pointed questions, so why would you expect it to work in the game?
Employers often develop guild-sniffing techniques ICly because potential employees develop guild-obscuring techniques ICly. I realize that people don't want the environment to be as watered down as, "I'm a Burglar." or "I'm a Merchant." -- but when players consistently dodge answers about what their character knows or has experience in, especially as a potential employee, it forces the employer to be more critical and pointed in their line of questioning.
What I think is challenging for many players is knowing someone's guild and accepting their response when they either honestly or dishonestly claim not to be able to do something you (the player) assumes they can do. For example, you might have determined that someone is an assassin guild and so, from your previous experience with assassins, you ask whether they can taint a few blades for you. They then claim that they have no idea how that might be done. I've witnessed some employers that would actually then force their employees to perform the action or to do jobs that are inherent to their
class rather than to the
character.
Those are the type of people that perpetuate the problem, but it's often a phase players often go through as they move from admiring and chasing coded skill/ability/power and slowly migrate toward admiring and savoring a good role or story. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but more often than not there's a fairly linear transition, especially amongst players that come directly from hack'n'slash games and are rewarded almost exclusively on their coded merits.
I don't think a generic class is really necessary for Arm 1.0, especially if the main benefit/reason for development is to combat guild sniffing. Arm 2.0 sounds like it has a lot of features that will make it more difficult to guild sniff, but some of the responsibility will still remain on the shoulders of the players and their subsequent behavior to lessen the need for guild sniffing techniques that can often be as IC as people perceive them to be OOC.
-LoD
LoD, to me it sounds like the person in your hypothetical interview just wants to be an aide.
When I am playing an employer, I tend to, rather than give an interview per se, talk to them briefly, then send them on a string of tasks to accomplish. If he can bring me a few hides every week, I don't care of he is killing and skinning himself, stealing them, burglarizing apartments for them or summoning them out of thin air.
If you want to be hired as a merchant or crafter and want to cut the interview's time by 99%, just start talking in cavilish, then be like, oops, sorry, my bad! then switch back to sirihish. You'll be hired on the spot. ;D
I guess one good question that doesn't raise questions about guild sniffing would be, "How do you see yourself fitting into my business here"?
A: "I'd make a good guard".
Ok.
A: "I've had some experience in making shields."
Ok.
A: "I could be a pair of ears. I'd do well in negotiations and passing along instructions."
Do I need an aide?
A: "Uh... I dunno. I could, like, carry stuff. Mumble mumble."
I'll let you know (not).
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 27, 2010, 03:21:56 PM
LoD, to me it sounds like the person in your hypothetical interview just wants to be an aide.
If they want to be an aide, then there are plenty of answers they can provide to those questions to demonstrate the profession they want to pursue -- even if that profession doesn't have any code-related skills. Aides aren't skillless, talentless people that have no ability to communicate their value to a potential employer.
What I was trying to capture in the hypothetical was the dialogue I encountered frequently during the hundreds of IC interviews I've given over time. It's a practice on the part of potential employees that actually promotes the IC development of guild sniffing in employers, because they are just trying to get an idea of what your character does besides eat, sleep, and want money. Being intentionally deceptive or, worse than that, entirely non-committal about one's profession encourages guild-sniffing on the part of people who just want a reasonable answer to the question, "What do you do?"
If you want to lie, lie. If you don't want to lie, tell the truth, but tell them something reasonable. Answers like "...a little bit of this and a little bit of that..." are just as damaging to the integrity of the exchange as "...can you backstab?". There's a difference between wanting to know someone's profession and wanting to know their guild. Oftentimes, the two go hand-in-hand and by knowing one, you know the other, however, both employers and employees should strive to communicate with one another in a way that focuses on the profession and the demands of the job.
If people can be a little more open-minded or a little less close-lipped, guild sniffing may become less of an issue during the interview process.
For example, potential aides could respond with something like the following:
"Well, I'm good with people. I've always had a knack for reading people's moods, directing the flow of a conversation, and conducting myself in a professional manner. Combine that with a desire to demonstrate to you how effective I can be in managing your clients and keeping you from dabbling in menial day-to-day tasks, and I'd say I would be a valuable addition to both your team and the House Kadius."
That's hugely more helpful and applicable than:
"Well, I've done a few things here or there. Mostly run of the mill work. Nothing special. Whatever needs done, I guess."
-LoD
You can take a different approach to interviewing.
Why do you want to work for ______________ Why not __________ or ________?
Alright, well, let me tell you about _______________. This is what we expect from our ____________________. This is what I need at this time, This is what -I- am looking to hire. These are our rules.
Now, tell me how you see yourself fitting in.
Good, go think about it. Come back next week and tell me why I should hire you.
This served me well as a GMH recruiter.
And if I didn't think they'd be a good fit, I didn't hire them. I did however hire all the promising newbies I could.
Quote from: LoD on August 27, 2010, 06:21:42 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 27, 2010, 03:21:56 PM
LoD, to me it sounds like the person in your hypothetical interview just wants to be an aide.
If they want to be an aide, then there are plenty of answers they can provide to those questions to demonstrate the profession they want to pursue -- even if that profession doesn't have any code-related skills. Aides aren't skillless, talentless people that have no ability to communicate their value to a potential employer.
What I was trying to capture in the hypothetical was the dialogue I encountered frequently during the hundreds of IC interviews I've given over time. It's a practice on the part of potential employees that actually promotes the IC development of guild sniffing in employers, because they are just trying to get an idea of what your character does besides eat, sleep, and want money. Being intentionally deceptive or, worse than that, entirely non-committal about one's profession encourages guild-sniffing on the part of people who just want a reasonable answer to the question, "What do you do?"
If you want to lie, lie. If you don't want to lie, tell the truth, but tell them something reasonable. Answers like "...a little bit of this and a little bit of that..." are just as damaging to the integrity of the exchange as "...can you backstab?". There's a difference between wanting to know someone's profession and wanting to know their guild. Oftentimes, the two go hand-in-hand and by knowing one, you know the other, however, both employers and employees should strive to communicate with one another in a way that focuses on the profession and the demands of the job.
If people can be a little more open-minded or a little less close-lipped, guild sniffing may become less of an issue during the interview process.
For example, potential aides could respond with something like the following:
"Well, I'm good with people. I've always had a knack for reading people's moods, directing the flow of a conversation, and conducting myself in a professional manner. Combine that with a desire to demonstrate to you how effective I can be in managing your clients and keeping you from dabbling in menial day-to-day tasks, and I'd say I would be a valuable addition to both your team and the House Kadius."
That's hugely more helpful and applicable than:
"Well, I've done a few things here or there. Mostly run of the mill work. Nothing special. Whatever needs done, I guess."
-LoD
My master guild sniffing tells me you are a mind-bender.
draw bone.sword.of.gutting
I apologize for contributing nothing of value to this thread.
I've made it a policy regarding vague answers from potential hirelings, when I am in a position of leadership (clanned or unclanned, intentional or thrust into it by default).
If they tell me they're looking for work, I ask them what kind of work they're looking to do. If they say "a little of this and that" or "nothing particular, anything really" I will promptly direct them to the leader of whatever clan my character doesn't like that day.
So do I.
Which was specially entertaining when I was playing winrothol.
Look, I don't think we have room right now...But I hear Tenneshi does.
We felt so sorry for Tenneshi...well, not really, but it was funny.
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on July 24, 2009, 10:22:18 PM
I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.
^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on September 19, 2010, 02:56:11 AM
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.
^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.
[/quote]
I truly find this to be a problem with the cavilish language being only available to specific guild(s) at the start. I find it very frustrating. If you come from a merchant family background, you might speak cavilish, but that doesn't mean you're a merchant.... I remember special-apping to have the language on one of my PC's purely so guild sniffers wouldn't be able to immediately know I wasn't a merchant, even though I claimed to be.
I would love for this to be added to a subguild, or a new subguild created to allowed this very visible, very obvious ability to be acquired from the start.
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on September 19, 2010, 02:56:11 AM
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on July 24, 2009, 10:22:18 PM
I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.
^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.
-I rolled up a pc in the 'rinth. Also bright of eye and bushy of tail.
-Leader pc took one look at me and my equipment.
-"You're a magicker."
-I didn't store, but died soon after.
Quote from: Jingo on September 23, 2010, 09:54:50 PM
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on September 19, 2010, 02:56:11 AM
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on July 24, 2009, 10:22:18 PM
I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.
^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.
-I rolled up a pc in the 'rinth. Also bright of eye and bushy of tail.
-Leader pc took one look at me and my equipment.
-"You're a magicker."
-I didn't store, but died soon after.
Eh, if you were in the 'rinth and you were casting, I wouldn't assume that nobody saw you do it.
Of course, if you actually weren't a magicker, that's pretty amusing. And stupid. Stupid, mostly.
Course they did not mention the PC was the Fiery-haired crimson-eyed PC with burns and 10 other references to flame, fire, red, smoke, crimson, orange and krath in mdesc. But hey, nobody is supposed to guess a Krathi right?
Quote from: X-D on September 23, 2010, 11:28:30 PM
Course they did not mention the PC was the Fiery-haired crimson-eyed PC with burns and 10 other references to flame, fire, red, smoke, crimson, orange and krath in mdesc.
People really do that? Other than for misdirection?
Quote from: X-D on September 23, 2010, 11:28:30 PM
Course they did not mention the PC was the Fiery-haired crimson-eyed PC with burns and 10 other references to flame, fire, red, smoke, crimson, orange and krath in mdesc. But hey, nobody is supposed to guess a Krathi right?
And then it turns out to be a vivaduan.
Once, I saw the fiery-haired, smoky-eyed elf, and reflexively thought "Oh, great, another fiery-haired Krathi."
Turns out he was a completely kickass warrior, and a great character to boot.
I think that player was just fucking with the playerbase's habit of making assumptions.
Oh, I'm sure they were. But if you look around at the NPC mages you will see that making such assumptions is NOT OOC.
Nah, I agree with you. I still think it's a little sillly.
Yeah, I refuse to wear the color-coded outfits, too.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 23, 2010, 11:04:31 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 23, 2010, 09:54:50 PM
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on September 19, 2010, 02:56:11 AM
Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on July 24, 2009, 10:22:18 PM
I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.
^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.
-I rolled up a pc in the 'rinth. Also bright of eye and bushy of tail.
-Leader pc took one look at me and my equipment.
-"You're a magicker."
-I didn't store, but died soon after.
Eh, if you were in the 'rinth and you were casting, I wouldn't assume that nobody saw you do it.
Of course, if you actually weren't a magicker, that's pretty amusing. And stupid. Stupid, mostly.
In this instance, I hadn't even started casting yet.
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I'm gonna bring it back like leg warmers!
Um, my experience with guild sniffing has not really ever handicapped me in anyway. The most it has done is create a slightly jarring moment. I find it jarring when someone looks at you for the first time and says you, what do you do. You say something like oh you know hunt a bit, salt a bit, do this do that. Then they say can you scan for gith in the sands? But, some PC's pull it off better than others.
Instead of saying I can pick locks and steal in an interview, I can say I have fast hands... Instead of saying I can hide and sneak mad goodly you can say you know all the ins and outs of the city and can get around quietly.
IMO leader PC's do need to have an idea of the skills of potential recruits, same as in any job. Absolutely nothing is stopping the PC being interview to RP creatively a way to inform the leader of his or her skills, or fuck, even lie about them. If I am an assassin and I am trying to get a job in a noble house for the sole purpose of offing said noble, or spying on him, I am sure as hell gonna make up tell him or her I can build a table out of mek bone.
Or just say you're a highly skilled assassin willing to work for them. Young nobles are a naive bunch ;)
Don't really have much to add to this thread.
I mostly see guild sniffing as harmless/necessary/IC, as long as they don't force you to do something you IC can't. But hey, if you're a guild merchant and someone forces you to do merchant-like things that you don't want to, just say that you can't. I don't think anyone actually wants to be labeled a guild sniffer, so they won't push you for it.
For most jobs, just take a subguild similar to what you want. Want to be a pickpocket in the militia? Take a subguild that allows you to guard. Want to be an assassin hired as a hunter? Take a subguild that lets you skin and track.
IMO, there is already a 'commoner' guild, and that's Burglar. They have enough little skills to pretend to be almost any guild except ranger or gicker. They can eventually pretend to be assassins or pickpockets. With the right subguilds, they can partially fake it as most guilds too. I'd bet that a master burglar doesn't get as good as a specialized class, so it fits just fine if you want to be some common Amos.
Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions :P
Quote from: SMuz on March 24, 2011, 11:34:04 AM
Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions :P
The frail and sickly waif brandishes a massive obsidian battle-axe.
Or
The frail, ivory-skinned man pants heavily, wiping the blood from his body.
I personally don't approve of Guild sniffing. To me there is a difference between holding a conversation with someone to find out if they can do a job (acceptable) and Guild sniffing (not acceptable).
Guild sniffing is taking OOC knowledge of skills and how they branch and pressing people about them to invoke OOC knowledge and make it IC knowledge as a given and it is a very fine line to walk. If someone says they are a gardener and you don't need a gardener then don't hire them. If you need a spy and they can't spy don't hire them. If you need someone to kill someone and they don't feel confident they can do the job, don't hire them. If someone says I'm a gardener and you're like ZOMG BUT WHAT ARE YOU REALLY? Drop it. They're a gardener unless they give you reason to believe otherwise.
I can't really think of any reason you would need to guild sniff someone. If you want to hire some as an aide you don't need to know if they can sneak or hide or whatever to run errands. PCs are not a set of skills for you to use and its damaging to see them that way if you're looking for engrossing RP. It is up to the player if they want to use their skills or focus on branching.
If you want to hire an assassin say, "Go kill this guy." You don't need to guild sniff them to see if they've branched or if they would do things the way you would do things. You don't need to encourage people to branch skills once you may figure out the guild they are. Now obviously if you have some scheme and you ABSOLUTELY need to speak Cavilish I understand you need someone with the Cavilish "skill." Or if you are looking for a poisoner you need someone with poison but trying to match up their other skills to figure out what guild they are even though you only need them to poison something is when the problem comes in.
If you are asking someone if they have the ability to do something, and you don't need that person to do that something you're asking about then odds are you are inquiring for OOC reasons and you are guild sniffing. Guild sniffing can be just as damaging to you as it is to the person because it changes your perception of the character. Just because someone has a skill or could potentially branch a skill doesn't mean they have any attention of attempting to branch or use that skill you now know they have. A pickpocket guild does not make someone a thief, an assassin guild does not make them a murderer and a merchant does not make someone a crafter. It means they have a capacity for things in their lives but to me it doesn't do anyone any good to pigeonhole characters especially for their own coded advantage.
My rule is RP realistically and try to figure out how you can back it up with code, not the other way around.
Armaddict in your case I don't think you're talking about guild sniffing so much as making sure someone can do a job which is acceptable. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I interpreted it.
TLDR: Seeing if someone has a skill you need to employee is one thing. Trying to figure out their guild for a coded advantage to you, OOC curiosity, or to encourage them to branch because OOCly you know they could branch something is wrong. Enjoy the fear of not knowing if Amos could stab you in the face at any given time and learn more about a person as needed.
Quote from: SMuz on March 24, 2011, 11:34:04 AM
Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions :P
Assumptions can be decieving, but then again after years/months of living certain life-styles a few traits would come up.
Just to throw in a quick thought, here, that you can ignore at will, because I didn't bother to read this superlong thread ...
But as a character progresses (and you get to know them), it usually becomes obvious to you, the player, what guild they are playing. However, there are times, if you're playing the game right, that you never know some character's guilds, and don't even dwell on it.
My personal thoughts: Skill sniffing? Definitely, if you want something done right. Guild sniffing? Shabby, if not punishable.
i actually appreciate guild sniffing when its done by a templar or highlord who my character is going to assume knows every small thing about me anyway, including my abilities, so that they know whether i'm useful for breaking into the houses of their enemies to steal crap, or if i'm useful for backstabbing their enemies from the shadows. anyone else--- no.
thanks to the subguilds which mirror most if not all the normal guilds, i don't break immersion in order to think, oh hey, they're an assassin guild! i keep trying to think in real life terms about others; if they RP and say and do things that say "merchant" i shall assume they like crafting and selling things for a living, rather than assume they have that guild. OOCly, you never really want to assume someone has a harmelss guild when they may not. i totally did not read this entire long thread either.
some fo the roles i mosy enjoyed were picking coded abilities that somewhat or did not help my character in terms of what they said they did or liked doing, and had unique, non-coded jobs. that was some fun junk.
I don't think Templar get a free pass to guild sniff while others can not.
Commoners might think a templar knows everything about them. But from a strictly ooc perspective, they don't. And they don't have a right to any more than anyone else.
Quote from: bartenderer on March 24, 2011, 02:23:10 PM
Quote from: SMuz on March 24, 2011, 11:34:04 AM
Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions :P
The frail and sickly waif brandishes a massive obsidian battle-axe.
Pssh, that's a little twinky. If I did roll up a frail and sickly waif, strength and endurance would be lowest priority. Not to say they won't be warriors wielding a weapon in both hands. Plenty of good IC reasons for a weak person to take a warrior's path :P
You can totally de-prioritize something and get a good stat on it though. Sometimes it's not the player's fault. But I think the stats generally cover such a huge range of possible characteristics, that barring extremes (like the frail sickly waif example) you could have a character looking just about any which way, and the stats still make sense.
Quote from: SMuz on March 26, 2011, 12:13:30 AM
Quote from: bartenderer on March 24, 2011, 02:23:10 PM
Quote from: SMuz on March 24, 2011, 11:34:04 AM
Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions :P
The frail and sickly waif brandishes a massive obsidian battle-axe.
Pssh, that's a little twinky. If I did roll up a frail and sickly waif, strength and endurance would be lowest priority. Not to say they won't be warriors wielding a weapon in both hands. Plenty of good IC reasons for a weak person to take a warrior's path :P
I will mention that there is a big difference between being bodybuilder strong and being fit. You can look scrawny and be suited for endurance exercises and have credible strength. You see this a lot with athletes who perform a lot of running. (i.e. elves!) Having a lot of strength with no endurance capability means you'd be able to swing that weapon a few times before you get winded.
Or the opposite--a big muscular bodybuilder type guy who ends up breaking his own bones or tearing a ligament or something because he hasn't trained how to use them properly. Though this usually happens with steroids.
My dad is a scrawny guy and one time he threw this 300ish lb dude over a fence. To be fair, it was a chain link fence about regular chain link height, but still.
My dad could beat up your dad.
/derail
Quote from: Bebop on March 24, 2011, 04:18:44 PM
[A really great post that people should read, but would be a hassle to quote]
TLDR: Seeing if someone has a skill you need to employee is one thing. Trying to figure out their guild for a coded advantage to you, OOC curiosity, or to encourage them to branch because OOCly you know they could branch something is wrong. Enjoy the fear of not knowing if Amos could stab you in the face at any given time and learn more about a person as needed.
Quote from: Kismetic on March 25, 2011, 04:47:34 PM
My personal thoughts: Skill sniffing? Definitely, if you want something done right. Guild sniffing? Shabby, if not punishable.
I agree with these things.
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 25, 2011, 07:09:09 PM
i actually appreciate guild sniffing when its done by a templar or highlord who my character is going to assume knows every small thing about me anyway, including my abilities, so that they know whether i'm useful for breaking into the houses of their enemies to steal crap, or if i'm useful for backstabbing their enemies from the shadows. anyone else--- no.
thanks to the subguilds which mirror most if not all the normal guilds, i don't break immersion in order to think, oh hey, they're an assassin guild! i keep trying to think in real life terms about others; if they RP and say and do things that say "merchant" i shall assume they like crafting and selling things for a living, rather than assume they have that guild. OOCly, you never really want to assume someone has a harmelss guild when they may not. i totally did not read this entire long thread either.
some fo the roles i mosy enjoyed were picking coded abilities that somewhat or did not help my character in terms of what they said they did or liked doing, and had unique, non-coded jobs. that was some fun junk.
I know Musashi already said this, but I'll chime in: You shouldn't be allowed to Guild sniff no matter what your IC position is. If anything, being a Templar means you have more responsibility and that it's even less acceptable for you to Guild sniff. Also, just because your character assumes that templars know things, doesn't mean that they actually do. They certainly
may, but they aren't
guaranteed.
Your second paragraph seems very winding. Are you trying to say that you can assume any guild based on the actions someone takes? The idea of a "guild" itself is an OOC concept. Also, what you OOCly want to do (assuming people have a harmless guild or not) is really irrelevant to anything. If your PC is the trusting sort, then they have no reason not to invite someone they believe to be a merchant and a friend into their apartment. If they're trusting, there's no reason not to eat any food offered to them. Likewise, even if you OOCly completely believe someone is a Merchant, if your character is a paranoid person, they may never tell them where they live and always drink from your personal hip flask.
Non-coded jobs can be fun, but lesser coded jobs can be good too, like a dung-scooper. The problem with non-coded jobs is that it's a lot harder to get paid for those things. It can be a fun challenge.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 26, 2011, 10:13:25 AM
I will mention that there is a big difference between being bodybuilder strong and being fit. You can look scrawny and be suited for endurance exercises and have credible strength. You see this a lot with athletes who perform a lot of running. (i.e. elves!) Having a lot of strength with no endurance capability means you'd be able to swing that weapon a few times before you get winded.
That's an interesting point. I think it's true, but on the other hand, something too extreme is just unbelievable (which I don't think you're arguing it's not, I'm just saying!).
I think after 7 pages, this thread is pretty much discussed out.
Quote from: valeria on March 26, 2011, 11:25:12 AM
Or the opposite--a big muscular bodybuilder type guy who ends up breaking his own bones or tearing a ligament or something because he hasn't trained how to use them properly. Though this usually happens with steroids.
My dad is a scrawny guy and one time he threw this 300ish lb dude over a fence. To be fair, it was a chain link fence about regular chain link height, but still.
I really doubt that Zalanthas-type training can incorporate weight training in a non-compound exercise format. I see most exercises that deal with 'weight lifting' to be deadlifts, squats-types, walking with weight on the shoulders/attached to the body (armor, weighted vests, etc.) In the case of compound exercises you aren't going to be building muscle without strengthening tendons/ligaments. So essentially, bodybuilding is not traditionally feasible with limited equipment. It's kind of difficult to isolate muscle groups without at least dumbbells (most times machines,) and exact technique in how you lift. Watching "Pumping Iron" (Ahhhnold's bodybuilding movie,) will kind of shed more light on this. It should be noted that any decent bodybuilder does compound exercises.
Also: How did he throw him? Most judo/jujitsu type throws involve balance, leverage, and technique. Brazilian Jiujitsu throws are also oriented toward tossing a larger, more athletic opponent. I've thrown plenty of big boys in this manner. Obviously if he just went up and Darth Vader choke slammed the guy, then that's an impressive display of skinny-man strength. I see that a lot in dudes that have a really fast metabolism, so their body never "blows up" despite growing stronger in their regimens.
Quote from: Taven on March 26, 2011, 01:14:41 PM
I know Musashi already said this, but I'll chime in: You shouldn't be allowed to Guild sniff no matter what your IC position is. If anything, being a Templar means you have more responsibility and that it's even less acceptable for you to Guild sniff. Also, just because your character assumes that templars know things, doesn't mean that they actually do. They certainly may, but they aren't guaranteed.
Your second paragraph seems very winding. Are you trying to say that you can assume any guild based on the actions someone takes? The idea of a "guild" itself is an OOC concept. Also, what you OOCly want to do (assuming people have a harmless guild or not) is really irrelevant to anything. If your PC is the trusting sort, then they have no reason not to invite someone they believe to be a merchant and a friend into their apartment. If they're trusting, there's no reason not to eat any food offered to them. Likewise, even if you OOCly completely believe someone is a Merchant, if your character is a paranoid person, they may never tell them where they live and always drink from your personal hip flask.
i meant that i pretend guilds and subguilds don't exist for players IG, so that it doesn't break my immersion or cause me to form expectations of people when they do certain coded things. i've seen people IG form these expectations about me and others but until it was done to me i didn't realize i was doing it to others, so i've been turning a blind eye ever since.. i don't want to OOCly do anything---- i just think one obvious positive side effect of never assuming something, is when you never assume a harmless-acting fella has mastered backstab. this helps keep me in touch with the game.
the things you guys have said about the templars is good. cindy is pleased.
Pretty much everything people have been bringing up since the necro was covered in the first 6 pages of the thread... which also includes a derail about adding more subguilds for your reading enjoyment.
It's pretty hard to rehash all the decent answers and discussions again.
We're trying to trick someone into disagreeing so that we can start arguing for ten more pages.
I disagree!
That help? ;D
Quote from: Is Friday on March 26, 2011, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: valeria on March 26, 2011, 11:25:12 AM
My dad is a scrawny guy and one time he threw this 300ish lb dude over a fence. To be fair, it was a chain link fence about regular chain link height, but still.
Also: How did he throw him? Most judo/jujitsu type throws involve balance, leverage, and technique. Brazilian Jiujitsu throws are also oriented toward tossing a larger, more athletic opponent. I've thrown plenty of big boys in this manner. Obviously if he just went up and Darth Vader choke slammed the guy, then that's an impressive display of skinny-man strength. I see that a lot in dudes that have a really fast metabolism, so their body never "blows up" despite growing stronger in their regimens.
He lifted him by the front of the shirt and somewhere around the groin of his pants and heaved him. My dad was extremely pissed off at the time, which probably helped. Also, the guy didn't like clear the fence by inches or anything. It would have been a fault in tennis. But the guy did go over the fence. My dad is one of those wiry dudes with fast metabolism and a very physical labor intensive job.
I wouldn't describe my dad as looking like the frail, skinny waif or anything, but he's 5'11 and only about 150 lbs so he's not the epitome of a physically impressive guy either.
So anyway. Looks and stat scores and guild sniffing. I can think of a lot of background related reasons someone might look more or less physically impressive than their stats make them out to be. It's not like four vagueish scores give you a comprehensive list of human characteristics.
I've done this before, though I didn't mean to :( My character was tasked with interviewing people, and she had to find out what they could bring to the combat-based clan aside from fighting. I looked at it like college interviews, where they want to know about extracurricular activities to get a well-rounded person, but I was surprised at how many people would just tell me their coded skills or subguild name. "I was a caravan guard when I grew up." That sort of thing. I wish people would just make stuff up that wasn't necessarily related to a code-based skill, like having a hobby of music, or knowing how to twist paper into intricate shapes, or dancing, or racing, or anything really. I do it too, so being on the interviewing side gave me some ideas to flesh out characters in the future so that they're more natural and mesh better with the world.
I can understand why there's some need for people to have someone with a certain skillset, but I think that guild sniffing itself is a poor way to go about it. If you need someone who will be able to do X or Y, then ask them to demonstrate the fundamentals for you. That seems like it ought to be part of an interview, anyway, to me.
You know, it's not just employers who add to the 'guild sniffing' problem. Often potential employees don't really have don't have an answer for "what do you want to do"?
Are terms like "crafter" "merchant" "hunter" "guard" the only vocabulary on Zan?
At your table, the lithe, well-dressed woman says, in sirihish:
"So, what is it you'd like to do?"
At your table, you say, in sirihish:
"I'd like to maintain a reasonable standard of living and perhaps raise a family, with children who will support me into my twilight years, where I'll eventually die quietly and peacefully, surrounded by loved ones."
You notice: The lithe, well-dressed woman's too-bright smile fades somewhat.
Feeling disappointed, the lithe, well-dressed woman thinks:
"*Another* rogue 'gicker or mindbender?"
You think:
"How the...!?"
Reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttFELM2t-TM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttFELM2t-TM)
Quote from: Synthesis on April 13, 2011, 01:03:24 PM
At your table, the lithe, well-dressed woman says, in sirihish:
"So, what is it you'd like to do?"
At your table, you say, in sirihish:
"I'd like to maintain a reasonable standard of living and perhaps raise a family, with children who will support me into my twilight years, where I'll eventually die quietly and peacefully, surrounded by loved ones."
You notice: The lithe, well-dressed woman's too-bright smile fades somewhat.
Feeling disappointed, the lithe, well-dressed woman thinks:
"*Another* rogue 'gicker or mindbender?"
You think:
"How the...!?"
Sooo true! Folks, don't ask questions if you're not interested in hearing answers.
Also, Booya made my day
The problem with guild sniffing too hard is you might be outting a magicker in tuluk or a sorcerer, which is fine to do ICly.. but if you figure out someone isn't a ranger/warrior/burgler/pickpocket from there lack of coded skills then that might be a bit of a problem.
It is actually exactly other way around. If you're guild sniffing to oust someone as a magicker. I dont think this is very kosher. I mean ... seriously, cant a magicker be a hunter? Cant a magicker be a pick pocket? Considering such things as manifesting magicks in later age, it is very possible that a magicker used to be any type of the guilds before being a magicker. The code doesnt really make it possible, but that shouldnt matter.
It is exaclty "those" guilds (warrior ,ranger, assassin, pickpocket, burglar, merchant) that are worth being guild sniffed by leader roles. When you only have 4-6 spots in your clan. You cant afford to bring in someone who is useless or whom you already have. A clan could use 1 burglar, but 2nd burglar is near useless except maybe if the first one is rare.
I rarely allow myself to get 'that' nitpicky. Burglar, assassins, whatever. You can stab? Stabbity stab stab? Great. But if I'm working hard on creating some elite group of warriors and rangers, who will rely on each other to be able to defeat enemies that outnumber them 3 to 1. I wont really be a happy camper if in my team of 4-6, I'll end up with 2 pickpockets.
Quote from: Dar on April 16, 2011, 09:15:06 PM
It is exaclty "those" guilds (warrior ,ranger, assassin, pickpocket, burglar, merchant) that are worth being guild sniffed by leader roles. When you only have 4-6 spots in your clan. You cant afford to bring in someone who is useless or whom you already have. A clan could use 1 burglar, but 2nd burglar is near useless except maybe if the first one is rare.
I rarely allow myself to get 'that' nitpicky. Burglar, assassins, whatever. You can stab? Stabbity stab stab? Great. But if I'm working hard on creating some elite group of warriors and rangers, who will rely on each other to be able to defeat enemies that outnumber them 3 to 1. I wont really be a happy camper if in my team of 4-6, I'll end up with 2 pickpockets.
The issue with this is someone's character is not defined by their list of skills/guild. They can do what they want, and where they want.
This is NOT kosher in my book to guild sniff someone since YOU want a different SET OF SKILLS.
This has been stated many times a PC's guild is not what they are. I can make a burglar who is actually a hunter. I can make a ranger who wants to steal for a living.
Quote from: Dar on April 16, 2011, 09:15:06 PM
It is actually exactly other way around. If you're guild sniffing to oust someone as a magicker. I dont think this is very kosher. I mean ... seriously, cant a magicker be a hunter? Cant a magicker be a pick pocket? Considering such things as manifesting magicks in later age, it is very possible that a magicker used to be any type of the guilds before being a magicker. The code doesnt really make it possible, but that shouldnt matter.
It is exaclty "those" guilds (warrior ,ranger, assassin, pickpocket, burglar, merchant) that are worth being guild sniffed by leader roles. When you only have 4-6 spots in your clan. You cant afford to bring in someone who is useless or whom you already have. A clan could use 1 burglar, but 2nd burglar is near useless except maybe if the first one is rare.
I rarely allow myself to get 'that' nitpicky. Burglar, assassins, whatever. You can stab? Stabbity stab stab? Great. But if I'm working hard on creating some elite group of warriors and rangers, who will rely on each other to be able to defeat enemies that outnumber them 3 to 1. I wont really be a happy camper if in my team of 4-6, I'll end up with 2 pickpockets.
Exactly what I'm saying. If you find that a pc is unable to disarm/steal/forage for food/craft a dozen things then it becomes fairly obvious OOCLY that the pc isn't a mundane. Thankfully, that's what we have sub-guilds for.
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 16, 2011, 09:18:39 PM
Quote from: Dar on April 16, 2011, 09:15:06 PM
It is exaclty "those" guilds (warrior ,ranger, assassin, pickpocket, burglar, merchant) that are worth being guild sniffed by leader roles. When you only have 4-6 spots in your clan. You cant afford to bring in someone who is useless or whom you already have. A clan could use 1 burglar, but 2nd burglar is near useless except maybe if the first one is rare.
I rarely allow myself to get 'that' nitpicky. Burglar, assassins, whatever. You can stab? Stabbity stab stab? Great. But if I'm working hard on creating some elite group of warriors and rangers, who will rely on each other to be able to defeat enemies that outnumber them 3 to 1. I wont really be a happy camper if in my team of 4-6, I'll end up with 2 pickpockets.
The issue with this is someone's character is not defined by their list of skills/guild. They can do what they want, and where they want.
This is NOT kosher in my book to guild sniff someone since YOU want a different SET OF SKILLS.
This has been stated many times a PC's guild is not what they are. I can make a burglar who is actually a hunter. I can make a ranger who wants to steal for a living.
Why would my leader character care what you want? I just want somebody who "can" track down a prey. Who "can" skin a creature without getting everything 'except' what's needed. Who 'can' survive 15 spiders for a few minutes. Hey, if you can do that without being the appropriate guild, great, fine. But if you make me waste a month thinking you can and then find out you cant. Expect some interesting scene next morning.
Because in the interview, they told you what they do. Hire them or don't. Don't guild sniff so that you know what OTHER skills they have (or don't have) so that you can hire them to do something other than what do. Someone says they're a grebber and can navigate? Great. Don't ask if they can also do X and Y so that you know whether the person is a ranger or not so that you'll know what other skills they have... because, and this is key, your character doesn't know what guilds get what skills. You do. Having your character determine whether or not to hire this person after you've guild-sniffed them? Yeah, that's meta-gaming.
Quote from: My 2 sids on April 15, 2011, 10:18:08 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on April 13, 2011, 01:03:24 PM
At your table, the lithe, well-dressed woman says, in sirihish:
"So, what is it you'd like to do?"
At your table, you say, in sirihish:
"I'd like to maintain a reasonable standard of living and perhaps raise a family, with children who will support me into my twilight years, where I'll eventually die quietly and peacefully, surrounded by loved ones."
You notice: The lithe, well-dressed woman's too-bright smile fades somewhat.
Feeling disappointed, the lithe, well-dressed woman thinks:
"*Another* rogue 'gicker or mindbender?"
You think:
"How the...!?"
Sooo true! Folks, don't ask questions if you're not interested in hearing answers.
Agreed times two. People always think the worst of those evasive about giving out hints to their coded abilities.
I "love" fooling with guild sniffers though. I remember playing a Youth ranger who ended up being an aide. So many people tried to figure out who he was. Some thought he was a pickpocket or burglar. A lot of people for some reason assumed he was rinthi. In the end, he ended up having his guild as Con Artist. Fun times :).
To avoid people from trying to "sniff" out my guild, I use skills - Even if I don't codedly have them. Good skills include, but are not limited to: Scan, Disarm, Bash, Guard, Rescue, etc.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 17, 2011, 12:32:08 AM
To avoid people from trying to "sniff" out my guild, I use skills - Even if I don't codedly have them. Good skills include, but are not limited to: Scan, Disarm, Bash, Guard, Rescue, etc.
Guard is a dead giveaway that you are (not) a warrior. That's sort of how some people sniffed out my militia pickpocket. Rescue too, as many characters figure out how to use rescue after a bit of training. If you want to 'fake it' as a warrior, pick the guard subguild, and you'll be all set.
The others aren't so bad, as they fail so much, even for skilled people.
Quote from: SMuz on April 17, 2011, 01:32:47 AM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 17, 2011, 12:32:08 AM
To avoid people from trying to "sniff" out my guild, I use skills - Even if I don't codedly have them. Good skills include, but are not limited to: Scan, Disarm, Bash, Guard, Rescue, etc.
Guard is a dead giveaway that you are (not) a warrior. That's sort of how some people sniffed out my militia pickpocket. Rescue too, as many characters figure out how to use rescue after a bit of training. If you want to 'fake it' as a warrior, pick the guard subguild, and you'll be all set.
The others aren't so bad, as they fail so much, even for skilled people.
How is Skill_Guard a dead giveaway? And Skill_Rescue is a pretty fail-tastic skill. Even the guilds that get it and/or start with it have it pretty low, starting off.
In all honesty, it's pretty easy to pass as another guild. Subguilds help a lot to that effect.
Well, a lot of warriors start of with rather good guard skill. I mean sure, you can guard people and have the echo, but if people see you failing a lot (like during sparring), it's pretty clear the character isn't a warrior.
Of course, you could always apply to staff for the skill if you're dedicated enough. Just get someone to train you, spend a few RL hours on the roleplay spread out over a few days (even pay a PC skilled character to roleplay teaching you how to use a skill), wait a few RL weeks for staff to approve it, and you'll be able to pass for a certain guild.
Also, the 'kick' skill is nice for this too, since it fails so much even on experienced characters. And characters are still capable of using weapons that they don't have as a class skill. I've had a pickpocket with axes beat up a warrior during sparring. They'll still improve in it given time. If you log in every RL day, you'll be better than that warrior who spars once a RL week, which really messes with people's heads.
Not gonna say why, as its kinda obv, but Thug is a -great- guild for throwing ppl off in a load of different ways.
Guild sniffing is the pits and people and leaders shouldn't and have no need of doing it. Not to figure out what guild someone is, not to fill 'quotas'.
As has been said before, there are tools at a leader's disposal to deal with quotas, and furthermore, this isn't a game you 'win' by getting the proper number of proper guilds under your belt. First off, leaders should be asking pointed questions as to what they need. Need a crafter? If interviewing a potential crafter ask if they can craft whatever you need crafted. If you need a bodyguard? Ask if they can fight or have any interest in doing so. If they're a hunter? Ask if they can hunt. Looking for an aide? See if they can deal with people and be a servant. Ask what their experience is, where they see themselves. If the answers to the above questions do not satisfy your leader character, then don't hire them, it's simple.
Leader looking for more seasoned fighters? Well, that's what the Byn is for. Ask around as to who the best in their group is. Offer them a lucrative deal and hire them. Need hunters? Check around with indy hunters of repute. Same deal with crafters. Offer them a lucrative deal to work with you. Talk to your underlings. See if they can refer you to one of their friends who might be able to do the job you need done.
The above can pretty much be applied to most situations. If in doubt, get them to perform some tasks. Someone said before in the thread, if they need someone who can bring in hides, it shouldn't matter what 'guild' they are. If they're able to bring in the number of hides you want by whatever means, then there you go.
Now, firing. If you hire someone and they aren't performing to what you think they should be doing, whether it's just being lazy or they don't have the skills they said they did -fire them-. This should be pretty apparent in a few weeks of playing and/or requesting reports from their superiors or even them. If they can't account for what they're doing when they aren't doing what you hired them for, give them the boot.
Death: the great equalizer. So you filled your quota of 6 fighters/hunters and it turns out you have 2 in your group who are below par. Well, if you hired them to fight, then fight. If they can't hack fighting and one or both die, then you now have 2 more slots you can fill. Better luck choosing a pair of people who can fight!
Seriously, guild sniffing is poor play. There's no reason behind it, even quotas aren't a reason. Finding out if someone can do what you're hiring them to do before you hire them is fine, but trying to figure out what guild they are just lends to poor play, and really, you won't win the game doing it so why bother?
*eta: Also, don't worry about not being able to do some things. You really don't need every single guild to do everything. You can hire on support if you need or even make deals with other people. This promotes groups working together to fill holes in what they need to have done. The best leaders hire characters, not guilds.