Not so random Armageddon Thoughts about Guild sniffin'

[LoD]

Most of what I ever had to say about guild sniffing was encapsulated in this post from 2008:

Guild sniffing will definitely be harder to accomplish in Armageddon 2.0, but one of the problems in the current iteration is that it's propagated by both sides -- employer and employee.

Taken from another thread:

The problem that employers have is several players are trying to pass off their character as one thing while being another.  This becomes frustrating and problematic for the employer, because of discussions that go like this:

Employer: So, you want to join the House?
Hire: Yes.
Employer: Well, how do you think you'd be able to serve?
Hire: I can do whatever you want me to do.
Employer: Sure, but what have you done in the past - what are you good at?
Hire: Little bit of this, little bit of that really.
Employer: Well, do you have any experience in a specific area?
Hire: Well, mostly I've just done odd jobs for a few folks here and there.
Employer: What kind of odd jobs?
Hire: Oh, just run of the mill work.

This is infuriating to employers that simply want to know how they can use you in the organization.  It's not too much to ask to at least be realistic when describing your strengths and weaknesses.  You don't have to say, "I'm an assassin!" -- but you should at least indicate whether you know the sharp end of a sword, would be of ANY use standing watch on a caravan, or know how to make a table.  You wouldn't walk into an interview today and expect to get hired with those kinds of dodgy answers to pointed questions, so why would you expect it to work in the game?

Employers often develop guild-sniffing techniques ICly because potential employees develop guild-obscuring techniques ICly.  I realize that people don't want the environment to be as watered down as, "I'm a Burglar." or "I'm a Merchant." -- but when players consistently dodge answers about what their character knows or has experience in, especially as a potential employee, it forces the employer to be more critical and pointed in their line of questioning.

What I think is challenging for many players is knowing someone's guild and accepting their response when they either honestly or dishonestly claim not to be able to do something you (the player) assumes they can do.  For example, you might have determined that someone is an assassin guild and so, from your previous experience with assassins, you ask whether they can taint a few blades for you.  They then claim that they have no idea how that might be done.  I've witnessed some employers that would actually then force their employees to perform the action or to do jobs that are inherent to their class rather than to the character.

Those are the type of people that perpetuate the problem, but it's often a phase players often go through as they move from admiring and chasing coded skill/ability/power and slowly migrate toward admiring and savoring a good role or story.  The two aren't mutually exclusive, but more often than not there's a fairly linear transition, especially amongst players that come directly from hack'n'slash games and are rewarded almost exclusively on their coded merits.

I don't think a generic class is really necessary for Arm 1.0, especially if the main benefit/reason for development is to combat guild sniffing.  Arm 2.0 sounds like it has a lot of features that will make it more difficult to guild sniff, but some of the responsibility will still remain on the shoulders of the players and their subsequent behavior to lessen the need for guild sniffing techniques that can often be as IC as people perceive them to be OOC.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

LoD, to me it sounds like the person in your hypothetical interview just wants to be an aide.

[FantasyWriter]

When I am playing an employer, I tend to, rather than give an interview per se, talk to them briefly, then send them on a string of tasks to accomplish.  If he can bring me a few hides every week, I don't care of he is killing and skinning himself, stealing them, burglarizing apartments for them or summoning them out of thin air.

[Malken]

If you want to be hired as a merchant or crafter and want to cut the interview's time by 99%, just start talking in cavilish, then be like, oops, sorry, my bad! then switch back to sirihish. You'll be hired on the spot. 

[Salt Merchant]

I guess one good question that doesn't raise questions about guild sniffing would be, "How do you see yourself fitting into my business here"?

A: "I'd make a good guard".
Ok.

A: "I've had some experience in making shields."
Ok.

A: "I could be a pair of ears. I'd do well in negotiations and passing along instructions."
Do I need an aide?

A: "Uh... I dunno. I could, like, carry stuff. Mumble mumble."
I'll let you know (not).

[LoD]

LoD, to me it sounds like the person in your hypothetical interview just wants to be an aide.

If they want to be an aide, then there are plenty of answers they can provide to those questions to demonstrate the profession they want to pursue -- even if that profession doesn't have any code-related skills.  Aides aren't skillless, talentless people that have no ability to communicate their value to a potential employer. 

What I was trying to capture in the hypothetical was the dialogue I encountered frequently during the hundreds of IC interviews I've given over time.  It's a practice on the part of potential employees that actually promotes the IC development of guild sniffing in employers, because they are just trying to get an idea of what your character does besides eat, sleep, and want money.  Being intentionally deceptive or, worse than that, entirely non-committal about one's profession encourages guild-sniffing on the part of people who just want a reasonable answer to the question, "What do you do?"

If you want to lie, lie.  If you don't want to lie, tell the truth, but tell them something reasonable.  Answers like "...a little bit of this and a little bit of that..." are just as damaging to the integrity of the exchange as "...can you backstab?".  There's a difference between wanting to know someone's profession and wanting to know their guild.  Oftentimes, the two go hand-in-hand and by knowing one, you know the other, however, both employers and employees should strive to communicate with one another in a way that focuses on the profession and the demands of the job.

If people can be a little more open-minded or a little less close-lipped, guild sniffing may become less of an issue during the interview process.

For example, potential aides could respond with something like the following:

"Well, I'm good with people.  I've always had a knack for reading people's moods, directing the flow of a conversation, and conducting myself in a professional manner.  Combine that with a desire to demonstrate to you how effective I can be in managing your clients and keeping you from dabbling in menial day-to-day tasks, and I'd say I would be a valuable addition to both your team and the House Kadius."

That's hugely more helpful and applicable than:

"Well, I've done a few things here or there.  Mostly run of the mill work.  Nothing special.  Whatever needs done, I guess."

-LoD

[Barzalene]

You can take a different approach to interviewing.

Why do you want to work for ______________ Why not __________ or ________?
Alright, well, let me tell you about _______________. This is what we expect from our ____________________. This is what I need at this time, This is what -I- am looking to hire. These are our rules.
Now, tell me how you see yourself fitting in.
Good, go think about it. Come back next week and tell me why I should hire you.
This served me well as a GMH recruiter.

[Barzalene]

And if I didn't think they'd be a good fit, I didn't hire them. I did however hire all the promising newbies I could.

[Feco]

LoD, to me it sounds like the person in your hypothetical interview just wants to be an aide.

If they want to be an aide, then there are plenty of answers they can provide to those questions to demonstrate the profession they want to pursue -- even if that profession doesn't have any code-related skills.  Aides aren't skillless, talentless people that have no ability to communicate their value to a potential employer. 

What I was trying to capture in the hypothetical was the dialogue I encountered frequently during the hundreds of IC interviews I've given over time.  It's a practice on the part of potential employees that actually promotes the IC development of guild sniffing in employers, because they are just trying to get an idea of what your character does besides eat, sleep, and want money.  Being intentionally deceptive or, worse than that, entirely non-committal about one's profession encourages guild-sniffing on the part of people who just want a reasonable answer to the question, "What do you do?"

If you want to lie, lie.  If you don't want to lie, tell the truth, but tell them something reasonable.  Answers like "...a little bit of this and a little bit of that..." are just as damaging to the integrity of the exchange as "...can you backstab?".  There's a difference between wanting to know someone's profession and wanting to know their guild.  Oftentimes, the two go hand-in-hand and by knowing one, you know the other, however, both employers and employees should strive to communicate with one another in a way that focuses on the profession and the demands of the job.

If people can be a little more open-minded or a little less close-lipped, guild sniffing may become less of an issue during the interview process.

For example, potential aides could respond with something like the following:

"Well, I'm good with people.  I've always had a knack for reading people's moods, directing the flow of a conversation, and conducting myself in a professional manner.  Combine that with a desire to demonstrate to you how effective I can be in managing your clients and keeping you from dabbling in menial day-to-day tasks, and I'd say I would be a valuable addition to both your team and the House Kadius."

That's hugely more helpful and applicable than:

"Well, I've done a few things here or there.  Mostly run of the mill work.  Nothing special.  Whatever needs done, I guess."

-LoD

My master guild sniffing tells me you are a mind-bender.

draw bone.sword.of.gutting


I apologize for contributing nothing of value to this thread.

[Lizzie]

I've made it a policy regarding vague answers from potential hirelings, when I am in a position of leadership (clanned or unclanned, intentional or thrust into it by default).

If they tell me they're looking for work, I ask them what kind of work they're looking to do. If they say "a little of this and that" or "nothing particular, anything really" I will promptly direct them to the leader of whatever clan my character doesn't like that day.

[X-D]

So do I.

Which was specially entertaining when I was playing winrothol.

Look, I don't think we have room right now...But I hear Tenneshi does.

We felt so sorry for Tenneshi...well, not really, but it was funny.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.

^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.

[wizturbo]

-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.

^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.
[/quote]

I truly find this to be a problem with the cavilish language being only available to specific guild(s) at the start.  I find it very frustrating.  If you come from a merchant family background, you might speak cavilish, but that doesn't mean you're a merchant....  I remember special-apping to have the language on one of my PC's purely so guild sniffers wouldn't be able to immediately know I wasn't a merchant, even though I claimed to be.

I would love for this to be added to a subguild, or a new subguild created to allowed this very visible, very obvious ability to be acquired from the start.

[Jingo]

I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.

^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.

-I rolled up a pc in the 'rinth. Also bright of eye and bushy of tail.
-Leader pc took one look at me and my equipment.
-"You're a magicker."
-I didn't store, but died soon after.

[Synthesis]

I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.

^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.

-I rolled up a pc in the 'rinth. Also bright of eye and bushy of tail.
-Leader pc took one look at me and my equipment.
-"You're a magicker."
-I didn't store, but died soon after.

Eh, if you were in the 'rinth and you were casting, I wouldn't assume that nobody saw you do it.

Of course, if you actually weren't a magicker, that's pretty amusing.  And stupid.  Stupid, mostly.

[X-D]

Course they did not mention the PC was the Fiery-haired crimson-eyed PC with burns and 10 other references to flame, fire, red, smoke, crimson, orange and krath in mdesc. But hey, nobody is supposed to guess a Krathi right?

[brytta.leofa]

Course they did not mention the PC was the Fiery-haired crimson-eyed PC with burns and 10 other references to flame, fire, red, smoke, crimson, orange and krath in mdesc.

People really do that? Other than for misdirection?

[HavokBlue]

Course they did not mention the PC was the Fiery-haired crimson-eyed PC with burns and 10 other references to flame, fire, red, smoke, crimson, orange and krath in mdesc. But hey, nobody is supposed to guess a Krathi right?

And then it turns out to be a vivaduan.

[a strange shadow]

Once, I saw the fiery-haired, smoky-eyed elf, and reflexively thought "Oh, great, another fiery-haired Krathi."

Turns out he was a completely kickass warrior, and a great character to boot.

I think that player was just fucking with the playerbase's habit of making assumptions.

[X-D]

Oh, I'm sure they were. But if you look around at the NPC mages you will see that making such assumptions is NOT OOC.

[a strange shadow]

Nah, I agree with you. I still think it's a little sillly.

[brytta.leofa]

Yeah, I refuse to wear the color-coded outfits, too.

[Jingo]

I once tried to make a character whose skills as a physician and surgeon were his only marketable skills. I even made him really old and made his main guild merchant to avoid people trying to get him to spar or something silly like that. Here's pretty much how it played out:
-Rolled up my new PC, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, in Tuluk.
-Met a couple of powerful PCs who agreed to employ him.
-I mentioned off-handedly that I could speak Cavilish.
-The powerful PCs responded: "Oh, cool. Think you could make chests for us until you branch, doctor? kthnxbye"
-I stored.

^And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what kinda sucks about guild-sniffing.
Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I felt it was worth repeating.

-I rolled up a pc in the 'rinth. Also bright of eye and bushy of tail.
-Leader pc took one look at me and my equipment.
-"You're a magicker."
-I didn't store, but died soon after.

Eh, if you were in the 'rinth and you were casting, I wouldn't assume that nobody saw you do it.

Of course, if you actually weren't a magicker, that's pretty amusing.  And stupid.  Stupid, mostly.

In this instance, I hadn't even started casting yet.

[bartenderer]

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I'm gonna bring it back like leg warmers!

Um, my experience with guild sniffing has not really ever handicapped me in anyway. The most it has done is create a slightly jarring moment. I find it jarring when someone looks at you for the first time and says you, what do you do. You say something like oh you know hunt a bit, salt a bit, do this do that. Then they say can you scan for gith in the sands? But,   some PC's pull it off better than others.

Instead of saying I can pick locks and steal in an interview, I can say I have fast hands... Instead of saying I can hide and sneak mad goodly you can say you know all the ins and outs of the city and can get around quietly.

IMO leader PC's do need to have an idea of the skills of potential recruits, same as in any job. Absolutely nothing is stopping the PC being interview to RP creatively a way to inform the leader of his or her skills, or fuck, even lie about them. If I am an assassin and I am trying to get a job in a noble house for the sole purpose of offing said noble, or spying on him, I am sure as hell gonna make up tell him or her I can build a table out of mek bone.

[Yam]

Or just say you're a highly skilled assassin willing to work for them. Young nobles are a naive bunch