Not so random Armageddon Thoughts about Guild sniffin'

[SMuz]

Don't really have much to add to this thread.

I mostly see guild sniffing as harmless/necessary/IC, as long as they don't force you to do something you IC can't. But hey, if you're a guild merchant and someone forces you to do merchant-like things that you don't want to, just say that you can't. I don't think anyone actually wants to be labeled a guild sniffer, so they won't push you for it.

For most jobs, just take a subguild similar to what you want. Want to be a pickpocket in the militia? Take a subguild that allows you to guard. Want to be an assassin hired as a hunter? Take a subguild that lets you skin and track.

IMO, there is already a 'commoner' guild, and that's Burglar. They have enough little skills to pretend to be almost any guild except ranger or gicker. They can eventually pretend to be assassins or pickpockets. With the right subguilds, they can partially fake it as most guilds too. I'd bet that a master burglar doesn't get as good as a specialized class, so it fits just fine if you want to be some common Amos.

Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions

[bartenderer]

Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions

Code Select Expand

The frail and sickly waif brandishes a massive obsidian battle-axe.

[solera]

Or

Code Select Expand

The frail, ivory-skinned man pants heavily, wiping the blood from his body.


[Bebop]

I personally don't approve of Guild sniffing.  To me there is a difference between holding a conversation with someone to find out if they can do a job (acceptable) and Guild sniffing (not acceptable).

Guild sniffing is taking OOC knowledge of skills and how they branch and pressing people about them to invoke OOC knowledge and make it IC knowledge as a given and it is a very fine line to walk.  If someone says they are a gardener and you don't need a gardener then don't hire them.  If you need a spy and they can't spy don't hire them.  If you need someone to kill someone and they don't feel confident they can do the job, don't hire them.   If someone says I'm a gardener and you're like ZOMG BUT WHAT ARE YOU REALLY?  Drop it.  They're a gardener unless they give you reason to believe otherwise.

I can't really think of any reason you would need to guild sniff someone.  If you want to hire some as an aide you don't need to know if they can sneak or hide or whatever to run errands.  PCs are not a set of skills for you to use and its damaging to see them that way if you're looking for engrossing RP.  It is up to the player if they want to use their skills or focus on branching.  

If you want to hire an assassin say, "Go kill this guy."   You don't need to guild sniff them to see if they've branched or if they would do things the way you would do things.  You don't need to encourage people to branch skills once you may figure out the guild they are.  Now obviously if you have some scheme and you ABSOLUTELY need to speak Cavilish I understand you need someone with the Cavilish "skill."  Or if you are looking for a poisoner you need someone with poison but trying to match up their other skills to figure out what guild they are even though you only need them to poison something is when the problem comes in.

If you are asking someone if they have the ability to do something, and you don't need that person to do that something you're asking about then odds are you are inquiring for OOC reasons and you are guild sniffing.  Guild sniffing can be just as damaging to you as it is to the person because it changes your perception of the character.  Just because someone has a skill or could potentially branch a skill doesn't mean they have any attention of attempting to branch or use that skill you now know they have.  A pickpocket guild does not make someone a thief, an assassin guild does not make them a murderer and a merchant does not make someone a crafter.  It means they have a capacity for things in their lives but to me it doesn't do anyone any good to pigeonhole characters especially for their own coded advantage.

My rule is RP realistically and try to figure out how you can back it up with code, not the other way around.

Armaddict in your case I don't think you're talking about guild sniffing so much as making sure someone can do a job which is acceptable.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I interpreted it.  

TLDR:  Seeing if someone has a skill you need to employee is one thing.  Trying to figure out their guild for a coded advantage to you, OOC curiosity, or to encourage them to branch because OOCly you know they could branch something is wrong.  Enjoy the fear of not knowing if Amos could stab you in the face at any given time and learn more about a person as needed.

[My 2 sids]

Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions

Assumptions can be decieving, but then again after years/months of living certain life-styles a few traits would come up.   

[Kismetic]

Just to throw in a quick thought, here, that you can ignore at will, because I didn't bother to read this superlong thread ...

But as a character progresses (and you get to know them), it usually becomes obvious to you, the player, what guild they are playing.  However, there are times, if you're playing the game right, that you never know some character's guilds, and don't even dwell on it.

My personal thoughts:  Skill sniffing?  Definitely, if you want something done right.  Guild sniffing?  Shabby, if not punishable.

[Cindy42]

i actually appreciate guild sniffing when its done by a templar or highlord who my character is going to assume knows every small thing about me anyway, including my abilities, so that they know whether i'm useful for breaking into the houses of their enemies to steal crap, or if i'm useful for backstabbing their enemies from the shadows. anyone else--- no.

thanks to the subguilds which mirror most if not all the normal guilds, i don't break immersion in order to think, oh hey, they're an assassin guild! i keep trying to think in real life terms about others; if they RP and say and do things that say "merchant" i shall assume they like crafting and selling things for a living, rather than assume they have that guild. OOCly, you never really want to assume someone has a harmelss guild when they may not. i totally did not read this entire long thread either.

some fo the roles i mosy enjoyed were picking coded abilities that somewhat or did not help my character in terms of what they said they did or liked doing, and had unique, non-coded jobs. that was some fun junk.

[musashi]

I don't think Templar get a free pass to guild sniff while others can not.

Commoners might think a templar knows everything about them. But from a strictly ooc perspective, they don't. And they don't have a right to any more than anyone else.

[SMuz]

Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions

Code Select Expand

The frail and sickly waif brandishes a massive obsidian battle-axe.

Pssh, that's a little twinky. If I did roll up a frail and sickly waif, strength and endurance would be lowest priority. Not to say they won't be warriors wielding a weapon in both hands. Plenty of good IC reasons for a weak person to take a warrior's path

[valeria]

You can totally de-prioritize something and get a good stat on it though.  Sometimes it's not the player's fault.  But I think the stats generally cover such a huge range of possible characteristics, that barring extremes (like the frail sickly waif example) you could have a character looking just about any which way, and the stats still make sense.

[Is Friday]

Heh, also I think it's a little amusing how you can see people's guilds from their desc, which is why I occasionally make a muscular pickpocket or a lean warrior to screw with people's assumptions

Code Select Expand

The frail and sickly waif brandishes a massive obsidian battle-axe.

Pssh, that's a little twinky. If I did roll up a frail and sickly waif, strength and endurance would be lowest priority. Not to say they won't be warriors wielding a weapon in both hands. Plenty of good IC reasons for a weak person to take a warrior's path

I will mention that there is a big difference between being bodybuilder strong and being fit. You can look scrawny and be suited for endurance exercises and have credible strength. You see this a lot with athletes who perform a lot of running. (i.e. elves!) Having a lot of strength with no endurance capability means you'd be able to swing that weapon a few times before you get winded.

[valeria]

Or the opposite--a big muscular bodybuilder type guy who ends up breaking his own bones or tearing a ligament or something because he hasn't trained how to use them properly.  Though this usually happens with steroids.

My dad is a scrawny guy and one time he threw this 300ish lb dude over a fence.  To be fair, it was a chain link fence about regular chain link height, but still.

[Feco]

My dad could beat up your dad.

/derail

[Taven]

[A really great post that people should read, but would be a hassle to quote]

TLDR:  Seeing if someone has a skill you need to employee is one thing.  Trying to figure out their guild for a coded advantage to you, OOC curiosity, or to encourage them to branch because OOCly you know they could branch something is wrong.  Enjoy the fear of not knowing if Amos could stab you in the face at any given time and learn more about a person as needed.

My personal thoughts:  Skill sniffing?  Definitely, if you want something done right.  Guild sniffing?  Shabby, if not punishable.

I agree with these things.

i actually appreciate guild sniffing when its done by a templar or highlord who my character is going to assume knows every small thing about me anyway, including my abilities, so that they know whether i'm useful for breaking into the houses of their enemies to steal crap, or if i'm useful for backstabbing their enemies from the shadows. anyone else--- no.

thanks to the subguilds which mirror most if not all the normal guilds, i don't break immersion in order to think, oh hey, they're an assassin guild! i keep trying to think in real life terms about others; if they RP and say and do things that say "merchant" i shall assume they like crafting and selling things for a living, rather than assume they have that guild. OOCly, you never really want to assume someone has a harmelss guild when they may not. i totally did not read this entire long thread either.

some fo the roles i mosy enjoyed were picking coded abilities that somewhat or did not help my character in terms of what they said they did or liked doing, and had unique, non-coded jobs. that was some fun junk.

I know Musashi already said this, but I'll chime in: You shouldn't be allowed to Guild sniff no matter what your IC position is. If anything, being a Templar means you have more responsibility and that it's even less acceptable for you to Guild sniff. Also, just because your character assumes that templars know things, doesn't mean that they actually do. They certainly may, but they aren't guaranteed.

Your second paragraph seems very winding. Are you trying to say that you can assume any guild based on the actions someone takes? The idea of a "guild" itself is an OOC concept. Also, what you OOCly want to do (assuming people have a harmless guild or not) is really irrelevant to anything. If your PC is the trusting sort, then they have no reason not to invite someone they believe to be a merchant and a friend into their apartment. If they're trusting, there's no reason not to eat any food offered to them. Likewise, even if you OOCly completely believe someone is a Merchant, if your character is a paranoid person, they may never tell them where they live and always drink from your personal hip flask.

Non-coded jobs can be fun, but lesser coded jobs can be good too, like a dung-scooper. The problem with non-coded jobs is that it's a lot harder to get paid for those things. It can be a fun challenge.

I will mention that there is a big difference between being bodybuilder strong and being fit. You can look scrawny and be suited for endurance exercises and have credible strength. You see this a lot with athletes who perform a lot of running. (i.e. elves!) Having a lot of strength with no endurance capability means you'd be able to swing that weapon a few times before you get winded.

That's an interesting point. I think it's true, but on the other hand, something too extreme is just unbelievable (which I don't think you're arguing it's not, I'm just saying!).


I think after 7 pages, this thread is pretty much discussed out.

[Is Friday]

Or the opposite--a big muscular bodybuilder type guy who ends up breaking his own bones or tearing a ligament or something because he hasn't trained how to use them properly.  Though this usually happens with steroids.

My dad is a scrawny guy and one time he threw this 300ish lb dude over a fence.  To be fair, it was a chain link fence about regular chain link height, but still.

I really doubt that Zalanthas-type training can incorporate weight training in a non-compound exercise format. I see most exercises that deal with 'weight lifting' to be deadlifts, squats-types, walking with weight on the shoulders/attached to the body (armor, weighted vests, etc.) In the case of compound exercises you aren't going to be building muscle without strengthening tendons/ligaments. So essentially, bodybuilding is not traditionally feasible with limited equipment. It's kind of difficult to isolate muscle groups without at least dumbbells (most times machines,) and exact technique in how you lift. Watching "Pumping Iron" (Ahhhnold's bodybuilding movie,) will kind of shed more light on this. It should be noted that any decent bodybuilder does compound exercises.

Also: How did he throw him? Most judo/jujitsu type throws involve balance, leverage, and technique. Brazilian Jiujitsu throws are also oriented toward tossing a larger, more athletic opponent. I've thrown plenty of big boys in this manner. Obviously if he just went up and Darth Vader choke slammed the guy, then that's an impressive display of skinny-man strength. I see that a lot in dudes that have a really fast metabolism, so their body never "blows up" despite growing stronger in their regimens.

[Cindy42]

I know Musashi already said this, but I'll chime in: You shouldn't be allowed to Guild sniff no matter what your IC position is. If anything, being a Templar means you have more responsibility and that it's even less acceptable for you to Guild sniff. Also, just because your character assumes that templars know things, doesn't mean that they actually do. They certainly may, but they aren't guaranteed.

Your second paragraph seems very winding. Are you trying to say that you can assume any guild based on the actions someone takes? The idea of a "guild" itself is an OOC concept. Also, what you OOCly want to do (assuming people have a harmless guild or not) is really irrelevant to anything. If your PC is the trusting sort, then they have no reason not to invite someone they believe to be a merchant and a friend into their apartment. If they're trusting, there's no reason not to eat any food offered to them. Likewise, even if you OOCly completely believe someone is a Merchant, if your character is a paranoid person, they may never tell them where they live and always drink from your personal hip flask.

i meant that i pretend guilds and subguilds don't exist for players IG, so that it doesn't break my immersion or cause me to form expectations of people when they do certain coded things. i've seen people IG form these expectations about me and others but until it was done to me i didn't realize i was doing it to others, so i've been turning a blind eye ever since.. i don't want to OOCly do anything---- i just think one obvious positive side effect of never assuming something, is when you never assume a harmless-acting fella has mastered backstab. this helps keep me in touch with the game.

the things you guys have said about the templars is good. cindy is pleased.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Pretty much everything people have been bringing up since the necro was covered in the first 6 pages of the thread... which also includes a derail about adding more subguilds for your reading enjoyment.

It's pretty hard to rehash all the decent answers and discussions again.

[Yam]

We're trying to trick someone into disagreeing so that we can start arguing for ten more pages.

[BleakOne]

I disagree!

That help? 

[valeria]

My dad is a scrawny guy and one time he threw this 300ish lb dude over a fence.  To be fair, it was a chain link fence about regular chain link height, but still.

Also: How did he throw him? Most judo/jujitsu type throws involve balance, leverage, and technique. Brazilian Jiujitsu throws are also oriented toward tossing a larger, more athletic opponent. I've thrown plenty of big boys in this manner. Obviously if he just went up and Darth Vader choke slammed the guy, then that's an impressive display of skinny-man strength. I see that a lot in dudes that have a really fast metabolism, so their body never "blows up" despite growing stronger in their regimens.

He lifted him by the front of the shirt and somewhere around the groin of his pants and heaved him.  My dad was extremely pissed off at the time, which probably helped.  Also, the guy didn't like clear the fence by inches or anything.  It would have been a fault in tennis.  But the guy did go over the fence.  My dad is one of those wiry dudes with fast metabolism and a very physical labor intensive job.

I wouldn't describe my dad as looking like the frail, skinny waif or anything, but he's 5'11 and only about 150 lbs so he's not the epitome of a physically impressive guy either.

So anyway.  Looks and stat scores and guild sniffing.  I can think of a lot of background related reasons someone might look more or less physically impressive than their stats make them out to be.  It's not like four vagueish scores give you a comprehensive list of human characteristics.

[Celest]

I've done this before, though I didn't mean to My character was tasked with interviewing people, and she had to find out what they could bring to the combat-based clan aside from fighting. I looked at it like college interviews, where they want to know about extracurricular activities to get a well-rounded person, but I was surprised at how many people would just tell me their coded skills or subguild name. "I was a caravan guard when I grew up." That sort of thing. I wish people would just make stuff up that wasn't necessarily related to a code-based skill, like having a hobby of music, or knowing how to twist paper into intricate shapes, or dancing, or racing, or anything really. I do it too, so being on the interviewing side gave me some ideas to flesh out characters in the future so that they're more natural and mesh better with the world.

I can understand why there's some need for people to have someone with a certain skillset, but I think that guild sniffing itself is a poor way to go about it. If you need someone who will be able to do X or Y, then ask them to demonstrate the fundamentals for you. That seems like it ought to be part of an interview, anyway, to me.

[My 2 sids]

You know, it's not just employers who add to the 'guild sniffing' problem.  Often potential employees don't really have don't have an answer for "what do you want to do"?

Are terms like "crafter" "merchant" "hunter" "guard"  the only vocabulary on Zan? 

[Synthesis]

At your table, the lithe, well-dressed woman says, in sirihish:
     "So, what is it you'd like to do?"

At your table, you say, in sirihish:
     "I'd like to maintain a reasonable standard of living and perhaps raise a family, with children who will support me into my twilight years, where I'll eventually die quietly and peacefully, surrounded by loved ones."

You notice:  The lithe, well-dressed woman's too-bright smile fades somewhat.

Feeling disappointed, the lithe, well-dressed woman thinks:
     "*Another* rogue 'gicker or mindbender?"

You think:
     "How the...!?"

[Booya]

Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttFELM2t-TM

[My 2 sids]

At your table, the lithe, well-dressed woman says, in sirihish:
     "So, what is it you'd like to do?"

At your table, you say, in sirihish:
     "I'd like to maintain a reasonable standard of living and perhaps raise a family, with children who will support me into my twilight years, where I'll eventually die quietly and peacefully, surrounded by loved ones."

You notice:  The lithe, well-dressed woman's too-bright smile fades somewhat.

Feeling disappointed, the lithe, well-dressed woman thinks:
     "*Another* rogue 'gicker or mindbender?"

You think:
     "How the...!?"

Sooo true!  Folks, don't ask questions if you're not interested in hearing answers.


Also, Booya made my day