Not so random Armageddon Thoughts about Guild sniffin'

[brytta.leofa]

Logging out is necessary.  Coordinating RPTs in real life time is necessary.

Believing, in-character, that 95% of the world's population fits into one of six neat bins is not necessary and only makes the gameworld feel thinner.  The stupid thing is that there's just no need to do this if you follow your own precept of hiring people who can hunt rather than people who say they they're gonna branch ranger skills.  

Guild sniffing
- cheapens the immersive feeling of the game world,
- seems necessary only if you're doing other OOC things, like hiring people with no skill, and
- is much less helpful than you think it is.  (Mostly because you're daft about an all-ranger hunting team, if that's our example du jour, being a cracking good idea.)

If things are not working well in-character, the solution is usually to get more in-character, not to metagame.

[netflix]

Coordinating RPTs in real life time is necessary.

Yes. But you could just as easy get a calculator out and figure out that 9pm EST tomorrow night is dawn, 19 IC days from now. You say this time next week because it's convenient. Not because it's required.

Guild sniffing
- cheapens the immersive feeling of the game world,
- seems necessary only if you're doing other OOC things, like hiring people with no skill, and

You are, of course, free to your opinion. As we all are, at least until the staff make an official opinion of their own. Personally, I have been told from staff past, after inquiring, that guild sniffing as fine, as long as things keep running smoothly and a certain degree of flexibility is allowed. I was actually once, to a minor degree, I'll admit, scolded for hiring someone who's coded guild didn't really fit the job they were hired for.

- is much less helpful than you think it is.  (Mostly because you're daft about an all-ranger hunting team, if that's our example du jour, being a cracking good idea.)

Oh, I certainly agree. Going entirely, in this example, 100% ranger would be quite limiting. I'd always leave room for a little variety, as I mentioned in an earlier posting. It is, as they say, the spice of life.

If things are not working well in-character, the solution is usually to get more in-character, not to metagame.

I'll simply point to my first first few lines of this post.

[Fredd]

Depends on your definition of guild sniffing. If I interview you for a position in my clan, and I only have say... Hunter slots. And you can't fight, can't ride, can't skin. Sorry, I'm not going to hire you.

Go give a doctor your resume without having any actual skill or knowledge of the medical field, and see if you get the job.

[Spoon]

The general rule is to keep it IC. It's people using their OOC knowledge that messes everything up. Like people have said already, it's fine to look for people capable of certain jobs. You're bound to work out what guild they are at some point, but keep it to yourself and don't tell your PC. If you suspect people of blatantly using large amounts of OOC information for IC purposes, just drop your Imm an email (or request I think it is these days).

[brytta.leofa]

Skill-sniffing is an in-character concept.  I don't think anybody's really complaining about that.

For the record, I'm (upon reflection) just as opposed to guild sniffing when it's favorable to your prospective hire.  "Okay, but you think you could be really good at archery if you practiced?"

[Armaddict]

...because asking if someone can use a bow is such a bad question.

[Fredd]

...because asking if someone can use a bow is such a bad question.

Agreed. And if you took the Archer subguild with merchant, guess who can use a bow now?

And anyone can get any mundane skill added while playing. It takes logs, it takes reports and it takes time. Mostly, it takes you not dying.

[Armaddict]

And anyone can get any mundane skill added while playing. It takes logs, it takes reports and it takes time. Mostly, it takes you not dying.

In theory.  A good deal harder to get done than you're making it sound.  It's generally done only with specific circumstance with real reason.

As far as the example, exactly.  If I'm looking for an archer, then subguild archer works.

If I'm looking for an archer who can go ahead of my group of mercenaries, make sure there are no threats, and start foraging food for us, and essentially act as a scout, then yes, he can still do it, but would likely not express confidence in doing it.  Here is where I say guild sniffing is okay.  If someone wants to try it, they can advertise themselves as an able scout or hunter, but may find themselves fired quickly for shortcomings.  The leader who is searching for a scout shouldn't be penalized for trying to make sure he's doing his job right and finding someone who can do the job he needs done.

As I said.  Acceptable, aside from when someone is purposefully using that knowledge to say, 'He can't do this, this, or this, but is acting like he can.  Magicker.  Have him investigated."

[spawnloser]

flurry, you obviously didn't do what I said.  Talk to the staff and explain why you need more people.  Things can be stretched, depending on the situation.  If you really do need another person and can show that you do, I'm sure staff can make an exception.  Either you didn't need another person, you didn't show that you could... OR they thought that even though you needed more and could show it, that letting you bring even more PCs into the clan would imbalance things.  I said staff would work with people, not that you're guaranteed to get to hire everyone you want just because you talk to the staff.

And netflix, I wasn't trolling.  I have seen a high percentage of people bitching about hiring caps and doing so in public fashion is tantamount to trolling the staff, since it is a backhanded criticism of their policy.  Adding to that, how you responded to me is another backhanded criticism of the staff, suggesting that they wouldn't work with you if you are being realistic, are working with them and hiring for a good reason all while not bringing imbalance to the game world because you simply have too high a percentage of the local players.  They generally don't make arbitrary hiring limits that are hard and firm numbers.  Trust me, because I know this as a fact.  I've been in a position to see hiring caps flexed.

Anyway, that's all a derail from the original topic of guild-sniffing.

Using hiring caps, which in my opinion are a complete non-issue for the reasons I've already given, as an argument for guild-sniffing is bullshit.  You can find out what someone's willing to be hired for without guild-sniffing.  "What can you do for Kadius?"  "I'm a good hunter.  I can track and clean my kills, and not only that, I'm good at the killing."  Further pursuing things... really reeks of guild-sniffing for reasons because YOU the player know what guilds get which skills and you're trying to figure out if this person is subguild hunter or guild ranger.  If that isn't enough for your character, force them to sweeten the deal, but asking point-blank questions about a few key skills so that you know for sure whether the person is guild this or subguild that, it's only so you can metagame.

Oh, and Armaddict, you don't need one person to be a super-man.  Why should one person have to do everything you need.  Make sure you hire two people that have a variety of skills instead of two warriors and then require the third hire to be guild ranger just so you can have one person to make up for at least one poor hiring choice?

[Lizzie]

Typical first meeting with someone looking for work, whenever I'm playing a hiring-type PC:

We get into conversation, they say they're looking for work. I ask - what kind of work?

"I dunno, whatever I can find."

Me: Well, what kind of things do you do?

Them: This and that.

At this point, I have already decided not to hire them and wish them luck on their search.

If you want a job, doing something specific, and think you can actually do this specific thing, or have the skill, an interest, and the ability to get good at it, then SAY what it is. If it's something you'd rather not say in public, then whisper to my character, or otherwise indicate discomfort in discussing it in public, and I promise I'll take the hint and invite you to a private talk in the back room.

Otherewise, neither I nor my character care about the "this and that" that you're hoping to do for someone.

[Armaddict]

Oh, and Armaddict, you don't need one person to be a super-man.  Why should one person have to do everything you need.  Make sure you hire two people that have a variety of skills instead of two warriors and then require the third hire to be guild ranger just so you can have one person to make up for at least one poor hiring choice?

That doesn't even make sense, dude.  Make better hiring choices so that you don't have to hire according to guild for a good hiring choice?  Isn't that hiring according to what you need all along?

[spawnloser]

Lizzie, I'm not saying you shouldn't find out what people can do.  I'm saying that you shouldn't ask specific questions to find out certain key skills so that you know if someone is a certain guild or not.

Armaddict, see what I just said in this post to Lizzie.  You know you need someone that can do some things... ask what they can do.  If someone wants a job, they should be telling you why you should hire them.  If what they give you matches with some of what you need, hire the person.  Don't hire 5 people to do one job and then require the 6th guy to be able to do everything else.

[Lizzie]

Lizzie, I'm not saying you shouldn't find out what people can do.  I'm saying that you shouldn't ask specific questions to find out certain key skills so that you know if someone is a certain guild or not.

Armaddict, see what I just said in this post to Lizzie.  You know you need someone that can do some things... ask what they can do.  If someone wants a job, they should be telling you why you should hire them.  If what they give you matches with some of what you need, hire the person.  Don't hire 5 people to do one job and then require the 6th guy to be able to do everything else.

I wasn't addressing my post to you. I was just adding my 2 sids to the overall conversation.

I agree with you, and that was sort of part of my point. I'm not going to hire someone who can -only- make tools, and then someone who can -only- make arrows, and then someone who can -only- make knives. I'd rather hire someone who has some combination that allows them to make a few different things, and one other person who has a combination that allows them to make a few -other- different things. Or someone who indicates ICly that they're guild_merchant, because really, I only need -one- employee, as long as that employee is guild_merchant. If they're not, I'll have to hire more than one, to do the job that one -could- do, if they were guild_merchant. And I really don't mind hiring 2 people to do that job..as long as both of them, combined, can provide the variety of crafting skills that my character needs to hire.

[brytta.leofa]

...because asking if someone can use a bow is such a bad question.

I didn't mean to suggest that.  "Can use a bow" is different from "wants to train the skill."  (Lots of young rangers can't use a bow worth beans.  It is, however, a great way to annoy gith so that they throw things at you.)

[flurry]

flurry, you obviously didn't do what I said.  Talk to the staff and explain why you need more people.  Things can be stretched, depending on the situation.  If you really do need another person and can show that you do, I'm sure staff can make an exception.  Either you didn't need another person, you didn't show that you could... OR they thought that even though you needed more and could show it, that letting you bring even more PCs into the clan would imbalance things.  I said staff would work with people, not that you're guaranteed to get to hire everyone you want just because you talk to the staff.

Whether a hiring limit is set in stone, or whether there's room to negotiate an extra hire or even two, the effect is similar. It's not an illusion. You absolutely cannot, as you suggested, just hire everyone that you want. And because you can't, some clan leaders are going to feel pressure (understandably) to make the most out of the limited positions they have. The problem (in my view) comes when this leads to hiring/firing decisions based on OOC factors.

To be clear, I understand that necessity of clan hiring caps. I just think we have to be mindful of the effects they have on hiring practices.

[Aaron Goulet]

..."guild sniffing" by leader types is totally IC and realistic, and guilds are as well.

Guilds are in no way in-character.  The skills a character possesses (not their potential skills), however, are in-character.  It sounds like the same thing, but it really isn't.

Example: Warrior/Hunter Amos and Ranger/Scavenger Malik are, ICly, both hunters by trade.  Amos, however, is the more seasoned of the two (OOCly, he has more days played), and shows up Malik frequently on their joint hunting expeditions.

At this point, Malik ICly may not even know that he is capable of eclipsing Amos as a hunter... So how could your PC, the potential employer?  Can your PC forsee the future? Guild-sniffing is likely crossing the OOC/IC line here.

I realize that I may sound a little preachy here, but we aren't talking about a matter of opinion; we're talking about the rules:

Using OOC information to drive the actions of your character, such as information gained through a previous character, or from another player outside the game.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that:

There are sixteen guilds at the present time, each with its own unique set of skills and abilities. Your guild does not directly determine your character's profession or role in the game; each guild can be played in a variety of different ways.

So, instead of seeing rangers/warriors/burglars everywhere, try to see characters for what they really are: soldiers/beggars/barmaids/whores/grebbers/hunters/stonecarvers/traders/artisans/etc.

Also, if you are in a position to hire other PCs, try to ICly judge them by what they can ICly do, or how far they develop over a certain period of time... Not by what you OOCly think their guild is.

[MeTekillot]

Fixing the reply thing from the main index. Ignore me.

[Fredd]

..."guild sniffing" by leader types is totally IC and realistic, and guilds are as well.

Bunch of stuff I agree with

I  agree. When I interview, it's not to sniff out a guild. It's just to make sure I'm hiring someone that can do the job in some way. If I hire someone incompetant, then I might lose my spot as the guy that gives interviews for that guild. I allways look for someone that is willing to learn.

[Dar]

A few points to consider.

Say I am in need of a hunter. Someone who could stalk down prey, bring it down, skin it, and bring me the produce. Can you do it?

A ranger goes, yes I can do it.

The two go out into the wild. The would be hire fails to sneak up on a jozhal, making me toss it at him. Gets beat up by a jozhal, untill I finally kill it for him, and messes up the skinning. Should I not hire him then? Ofcourse I should. Because he "is" a guild ranger, he just happens to be on his 1st hour of gameplay and is most likely a newbie.

The idea of ... if the person cant do this, that, this, and that then dont hire him, doesnt work. Because most new characters, regardless of guild, are pretty useless code wise. As a leader, some guild sniffing is required. Because you have goals to achieve, and a very limited human resource pool to draw upon. You cannot truly expect to hire experienced workers. I mean you can, but you shouldnt be relying on that. No, you're hiring newly created characters.

Say you're organizing a Bahamet, Mek, wezer hunt. You gather up the people, come over and bring the critter down. Now ... whom are you going to ask to cut it? Someone who you know excels in skinning, or someone whom you're not sure about? Because the difference is significant.

Overall, my personal opinion. I am perfectly fine with guild sniffing when you're a leader. I lost track of how many times I sat at the table as a Guildie leader, trying to figure out 'how' can I use the guy infront of me. He's asking for jobs, he's asking for ways to earn money. But he cant do shit. And because I do not know what guild he is, I cant tailor a job for him that'll send him into becoming useful. So you give him standardized errands and feel that you've handled the situation half-assed. Half of them get bored, do something stupid, and die. Even though some of them could've lived and acted out their roles, with a bit of guidance.

What I seriously dislike, is a catalogue guild sniffing. As in people who dont really care, they're not hiring you or really do anything with you, but simply guild sniff you to finger you as a non mundane.

The aide-looking f-me youth whispers to you, "Keep an eye on Amos, there is ... something wrong about him. What exactly? Oh ... oh ... I dont know. Something. I get a strange feeling."

[Aaron Goulet]

The two go out into the wild. The would be hire fails to sneak up on a jozhal, making me toss it at him. Gets beat up by a jozhal, untill I finally kill it for him, and messes up the skinning. Should I not hire him then? Ofcourse I should. Because he "is" a guild ranger, he just happens to be on his 1st hour of gameplay and is most likely a newbie.

The idea of ... if the person cant do this, that, this, and that then dont hire him, doesnt work. Because most new characters, regardless of guild, are pretty useless code wise. As a leader, some guild sniffing is required. Because you have goals to achieve, and a very limited human resource pool to draw upon. You cannot truly expect to hire experienced workers. I mean you can, but you shouldnt be relying on that. No, you're hiring newly created characters.

Also, if you are in a position to hire other PCs, try to ICly judge them by what they can ICly do, or how far they develop over a certain period of time... Not by what you OOCly think their guild is.

[Lizzie]

Never mind.

[Fredd]

Here's the thing. Anyone can learn to skin well. And, with time, anyone can learn to put a gurth down. Any class can be a hunter. Yeah some are better at it then others, But anyone can do it. But if I have a limited amount of people I can have. I like to hold try outs. I bring the guy hunting. I see what they can do.

Those try outs show me alot about a charecter. How well they know the land, where there skills are, how they take directions form me. Really you should look at the overall picture for a hire, not just coded skills. I've known some great hunters, that I wouldn't hire into a noble house ever, due to there attitude, and ability to take direction.

[brytta.leofa]

Son, I'll make you the deal of your life.  'Pears to me that you wouldn't last a Luir's minute out here.  But you want to learn, and that's, well, that's right special.

So, if you're game, I'll feed and water your mangy skin for a year, and you can train with my crew.  There's only three rules: you get someone killed, I'll gut you.  You run off, I'll gut you.  And if you can't kill and skin a scrab this time next year, I'll stake you out on a wezer nest.

Oh, now, wait, wait, hold your lizards.  D'you favor dual-wieldin' your-- no, wait.  D'you need sunslit-- krathsakes, well.   You ever try your hand at poisoning something?

[Old Kank]

Guild-sniffing sucks because you're trying to apply an OOC construct to an IC persona.  How is that not the end of this discussion?

The "I need to make sure they're qualified!" arguments are complete BS; that's so far down on the list of hiring priorities that if that's actually a problem for you, please PM me so my next PC can come work for yours.

Have you:
1. Found someone to hire?
2. Do they match your racial/citizenship/cleanliness/personality standards?
3. Do they log on regularly?
4. Do they log on during your typical playtimes?
5. Can they follow the clan rules about staying inside the gates/not hunting alone/not going into the 'rinth to murder children/etc for more than two RL days?
6. Will the character live for more than a RL month?
7. Can the character co-exist with other PCs without destroying your clan through psychotic personal drama crap?
8. Do you have at least two other PC employees that meet the first 7 criteria?
9. Do you have a need to perform one of the very few jobs that absolutely must be performed by guild X, Y, or Z, and that can't be done by anyone with support from your other PC employees?
10. You do?  Seriously?
11. Okay, fine.  Ask them if they have the arche- I mean, ask them if they've ever used a bow.

If you've found a great, qualified PC, congratulations!  Unless you're a Byn Sergeant, that one ranger/warrior/merchant is probably capable of handling your entire workload, so feel free to hire all the other PCs that get vague when you ask about their specific skill sets.  It's not your job to play gate-keeper over what classes people are playing, and unless you're very clearly up to something shady, nobody will ever bitch about how you hired that guy who turned out to be a psionicist, so just hire people.  Create an environment where your guild-mates have plenty of interaction and things are happening and you'll have a lot more fun than if you had a merchant PC churning out obsidian rings.

[Armaddict]

The "I need to make sure they're qualified!" arguments are complete BS.

You, sir, have never run a clan.  If you did, you ran it poorly and without goals, delegation to your minions, and so on and so forth.

You made your assertion, and I have made mine.