Not so random Armageddon Thoughts about Guild sniffin'

[Armaddict]

Hrm.  I'm...kind of against this sort of thing.  But...to help with the guild sniffing problem that there is, apparently...I'll go ahead and see if it's well received.

Subguilds:
Soldier - Slashing weapons (novice)
            Kick                    (low journeyman)

Bruiser - Bludgeoning weapons (novice)
            Bash                         (low journeyman)

Swashbuckler - Piercing weapons (novice)
                      disarm                (low journeyman)


Just so they can hide in clans better?  Or something?

[Samira]

Hrm.  I'm...kind of against this sort of thing.  But...to help with the guild sniffing problem that there is, apparently...I'll go ahead and see if it's well received.

Subguilds:
Soldier - Slashing weapons (novice)
            Kick                    (low journeyman)

Bruiser - Bludgeoning weapons (novice)
            Bash                         (low journeyman)

Swashbuckler - Piercing weapons (novice)
                      disarm                (low journeyman)


Just so they can hide in clans better?  Or something?

I'd like something like this.

[MeTekillot]

Let's not make warriors even less useful, please?

[Armaddict]

Because there being an archer subclass, a hunter subclass, a rebel subclass, and so on...have made rangers less useful.

How does it make them less useful, again?

[Synthesis]

Every half-giant non-warrior would pick bruiser, guaranteed.

At any rate:

1) Giving subguilds weapon skills wouldn't matter, because nobody notices lack of offense.  (I should say:  it wouldn't really matter with respect to guild-sniffing.  Obviously it would make them better offensively with that weapon type.)

2) Giving subguilds different mixtures of currently primary-guild-only skills would only confuse people for as long as it takes for them to read the helpfiles on the various subguilds.

[Armaddict]

1) Giving subguilds weapon skills wouldn't matter, because nobody notices lack of offense.  (I should say:  it wouldn't really matter with respect to guild-sniffing.  Obviously it would make them better offensively with that weapon type.)

There's an important difference that having the weapon skill at a minimal level does, and I'm sure you know what it is, so it helps someone without weapon skills to blend in.

2) Giving subguilds different mixtures of currently primary-guild-only skills would only confuse people for as long as it takes for them to read the helpfiles on the various subguilds.

It's not supposed to confuse them, it's supposed to muddy the water.  It gives time for people who are trying to avoid detection, because a blatant guild sniffer needs to determine whether or not it's just the subguild or not.

Every half-giant non-warrior would pick bruiser, guaranteed.

I wouldn't consider that a bad thing, considering the other skills they'd need to give up from a subguild in order to get it.


All in all, I'm not 100% behind the idea, but was trying to appeal to my ability to compromise.

[valeria]

I just don't think that it would help. 

Sure they could say in the interview 'I can bash/disarm people!'.  Why any employer would want to know that, I don't know.  I guess they could also say 'I can use a sword!', but anyone can say that.  They could also try using their very modest weapon/bash/disarm skill in sparring after they get hired.  But anyone who has ever been in a military clan and who has sparred newbie warriors is probably going to be able to tell that, even though they're spamming disarm at you, the new guy is probably not a newbie warrior.

[nihilist]

Aren't "guilds" just a holdover from DikuMUD? Let's just pick the skills we want from a list at chargen and be on our way.

[MeTekillot]

I like guilds :/

[nihilist]

I like guilds :/

Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.

[Lizzie]

I like guilds :/

Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.

The problem with that is..well there's a few. First, they're not gonna rip out the guild system in Arm v.1 (which is really Arm v.2; v.1 was a hack -n- slash). For Reborn (v.2 or v.3, depending on whether or not you count the hack-n-slash as the first version), they'll be doing tiered guild systems.

The second, is if you let people pick any skills, there will invariably be people picking skills that a) make no sense ICly but b) are combined to make uber leet PCs of deth & destrukshun and turn the game back into the hack-n-slash that it once was. It will attract people who like that kinda shit, to the exclusion of roleplay. When you build the RP around the code, you end up with people who play the code, and not the character. When you build the code around the RP, you end up with people who play the character, within the confines of the code. When you build the RP without the code, you end up with a mush. So we're the ones in the middle. We got code that is designed to support roleplay, rather than replace it. So we need a skill system that does the same.

[jhunter]

I like guilds :/

Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.

The problem with that is..well there's a few. First, they're not gonna rip out the guild system in Arm v.1 (which is really Arm v.2; v.1 was a hack -n- slash). For Reborn (v.2 or v.3, depending on whether or not you count the hack-n-slash as the first version), they'll be doing tiered guild systems.

The second, is if you let people pick any skills, there will invariably be people picking skills that a) make no sense ICly but b) are combined to make uber leet PCs of deth & destrukshun and turn the game back into the hack-n-slash that it once was. It will attract people who like that kinda shit, to the exclusion of roleplay. When you build the RP around the code, you end up with people who play the code, and not the character. When you build the code around the RP, you end up with people who play the character, within the confines of the code. When you build the RP without the code, you end up with a mush. So we're the ones in the middle. We got code that is designed to support roleplay, rather than replace it. So we need a skill system that does the same.

I agree. Classless systems take out the built-in weaknesses of characters and promote more focus on the coded mechanics than otherwise would exist, IMO.

[Armaddict]

I like guilds :/

Well, MeTekillot, you could make your own special guild! You could then do away with "guilds" and just call these "builds"! lol.

The problem with that is..well there's a few. First, they're not gonna rip out the guild system in Arm v.1 (which is really Arm v.2; v.1 was a hack -n- slash). For Reborn (v.2 or v.3, depending on whether or not you count the hack-n-slash as the first version), they'll be doing tiered guild systems.

The second, is if you let people pick any skills, there will invariably be people picking skills that a) make no sense ICly but b) are combined to make uber leet PCs of deth & destrukshun and turn the game back into the hack-n-slash that it once was. It will attract people who like that kinda shit, to the exclusion of roleplay. When you build the RP around the code, you end up with people who play the code, and not the character. When you build the code around the RP, you end up with people who play the character, within the confines of the code. When you build the RP without the code, you end up with a mush. So we're the ones in the middle. We got code that is designed to support roleplay, rather than replace it. So we need a skill system that does the same.

I agree. Classless systems take out the built-in weaknesses of characters and promote more focus on the coded mechanics than otherwise would exist, IMO.

That and skill-sniffing would be the next big complaint.

[Lithium]

What's wrong with just lying? If someone is guild-sniffin you, tell them you can do various skills outside your skillset but somehow always manage to suck at them...

The powerfully-muscled elf says, in allundean:
"Yeah, I make flowers and stuff...so..."

[brytta.leofa]

The powerfully-muscled elf says, in allundean:
"Yeah, I make flowers and stuff...so..."

The powerfully-muscled elf says, adding unnecessarily, a dab of spittle flying from his mouth, in allundean:
  "But no wagons!"

[AreteX]

I think this entire thread is an example of "why have guilds" in the first place.

An open-ended, choose skills from the beginning system would cause guild sniffing to be obsolete.(same restrictions for karma as races/classes are now).


Guild-sniffing is also a problem that is caused by experienced, veteran players.  I myself don't even know what a merchant's starting skills should be, or anything of that sort.  I think I've only branched a few skills my entire playing time.

The point is the guild-sniffing issue comes from veterans, which is a big crappy, since the veterans should be the ones who know better, right?

As for using RL as an example:  If I lie on my resume, and say I can program c++ and use someone else's work as an example, then get hired... I'm going to be fired within a week.

It should be the same way for in-game.  If you hire me to make Stone Product A, and I can't keep up, well... fire me.  But don't just "guild-sniff" me and realize I couldn't possibly do the job, if I have proof, or a convincing enough story to make it seem like I can do it.  I think this is losing tremendous potential for story and plot development.

Hell, maybe I get hired, I realize I'm in deep shit because you might throw me in jail, or I might be shunned by your house forever.... so I decide to start stealing things, paying for another stone-worker to make the things I need made...

Who knows?  Let the possibilities run their course.

[Dar]

As for using RL as an example:  If I lie on my resume, and say I can program c++ and use someone else's work as an example, then get hired... I'm going to be fired within a week.

It should be the same way for in-game.  If you hire me to make Stone Product A, and I can't keep up, well... fire me.  But don't just "guild-sniff" me and realize I couldn't possibly do the job, if I have proof, or a convincing enough story to make it seem like I can do it.  I think this is losing tremendous potential for story and plot development.

Hell, maybe I get hired, I realize I'm in deep shit because you might throw me in jail, or I might be shunned by your house forever.... so I decide to start stealing things, paying for another stone-worker to make the things I need made...

Problem is. Your IRL example doesnt work in game. If you hire a merchant straight out of chargen into house Kadius. That merchant will not be able to do a single thing that Kadius is known for, for making. Not one, zip, zero, nothing. Only later, after they branch some amount of skills, will they be able to do something that Kadius is known for.

So your example doesnt work, because everyone starts with shitty skills, even if they 'do' fit the guild. So you cant (in some cases) just lie and claim yourself to be a certain guild when you're not. Because 'nobody' is. Nobody out of chargen anyway. It's very rare that a few week/month charas old get guild sniffed. I'm sure there is a dozen of established assassin/hunters out there (hypothethical, I have no idea about the 'current' ic stats), and they have no problems of getting themselves hired into Kadian/Salarr as if they're rangers. It's mostly the newly created ones that get the most guild sniffing. Sadly, partly it's because that's the easiest time to figure out non-mundanes.



To be honest. I imagine in 2.Arm semi/classless system. Someone will eventually invent an agreement with some local militia. That if someone hires another and they fail to fulfill their promised talent within x amount of time, the militia insta kills them, no warning. Then make sure it's known to any potential employees.

Personally I love playing charas that are jack of all trades. People spend 'months' trying to figure me out. And it's so fun to watch them try. My record is being called a sorceror within one week of my gameplay.

[jstorrie]

The powerfully-muscled elf says, in allundean:
"Yeah, I make flowers and stuff...so..."

The powerfully-muscled elf says, adding unnecessarily, a dab of spittle flying from his mouth, in allundean:
  "But no wagons!"

This is my next PC.

[spawnloser]

We've already been told there will not be a classless system in Arm 2.0.  I'm happy about this.  I do everything I can to confound people when they guild-sniff, and I highly encourage people to special app for characters that don't have a few skills they normally would and a few extra skills instead.

Also, just because someone has played long enough to branch and knows a few branches doesn't mean that they're truly a veteran.  If you want to be able to point at someone and say, "That person is a veteran," find yourself a mul/psi/sorc/nilazi in game and do it.  That's about the only way you can be guaranteed of accuracy.

[Synthesis]

Ha, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.

[jstorrie]

I'd go one further and say that most people who are really vets a code probably get stuck at around 4 or 5 karma and get no further, because the compulsion to value chunk over fluff is just too strong.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[spawnloser]

Ha, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.

Which is awesome.  They're not trying to win the game.

[FightClub]

Ha, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.

Yeah, we refer to those 'people' as Immortals.

[a strange shadow]

You guys can be such snotty brats.

[flurry]

Ha, I bet there are plenty of people with sorc/psi karma who are utter newbs at code.

Probably true, but extensive code knowledge isn't necessarily all that important in a game like this. I'm sure it enhances the experience for some people, but not so much for others.

To take it back to the point about guild sniffing, I don't think that requires much knowledge apart from what anyone's going to get from a little experience playing.