Quote from: Gimfalisette
If travel is made more dangerous, I would like to see more encouragement given to Salarr, Kurac, Kadius, and the gypsies to take on paying passengers; and more encouragement to the Byn to charge reasonable fees for escort.
What would people consider to be a reasonable fee?
In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.
Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 08, 2009, 07:10:25 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette
If travel is made more dangerous, I would like to see more encouragement given to Salarr, Kurac, Kadius, and the gypsies to take on paying passengers; and more encouragement to the Byn to charge reasonable fees for escort.
What would people consider to be a reasonable fee?
In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.
Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?
Lower the cost of stabling and everything begins to cost less. No really :) If you stable some twenty times you've paid as much for the mount itself.
You also don't have to feed and water your creature, which, in some cases, can amount to a huge draw of virtual food/water. Inix in particular eat and eat and eat.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 08, 2009, 07:10:25 PM
In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.
This could be taken care of IG, not that it affects the discussion in principle.
Just sayin'. It simply hasn't been yet.
When I was playing my Byn sergeant, contract fees depended on a number of things, such as:
- Whether or not we'd be escorting a wagon or a mounted rider.
- How many mounts and people were going to be escorted.
- Whether or not the party being escorted had any of their own security.
- The escort's clan affiliation and ability to pay with things other than coins.
- How much prior notice we were given on the contract.
I don't recall ever charging as much as 500 coins to escort a single person and shares per Bynner were usually around 50-60 'sid.
But I think each sarge does it differently. In my eyes, risking my PC's life for 60 coins was perfectly in line with how I thought the clan should be.
I think the main problem is that the trip is USUALLY one way. Since there's really only PC Bynners(thus, usable ones) in the south, that means they often have to make the same trip 2-3 times. That's 2-3 stabling fees. That's 40+ coins each person, there. Most Byn Sarges require at least 3-5 people. That's already 250 coins or so, without actually MAKING any money. Charge 500, and each person doesn't even get 50 coins, esp if the Sarge keeps his larger portion.
Granted, that's a moot point right now. I doubt ANYONE will be wanting to travel.
Edited to add: I've never played a Byn Sarge, though my indep fighting types often offered to go along on trips with GMH people. Usually got paid some 250-500 coins one way.
It'd be nice if the Byn had their own stables like other clans.
I think the main problem is that the PC portion of the Byn relies on discreet contracts.
My understanding is the bulk of the Byn would be hired out on more permanent basis, guarding things/people.
What if independent merchant could either hire 1) several Bynners for a one way trip from Nak to Tuluk for 500 coins or 2) Hire 1 specifc Trooper for 500 coins for 1/2 IG month and they could go wherever...
I think "reasonable fees" should probably be based on the actual difficulty of the job and/or the ability of the client to pay. Moving an argosy or wagon from one city to the next should be a harder, bigger job because the thing moves slower and is thus more vulnerable to ambush. And guess what, the organizations that own those behemoths are able to pay higher fees.
But you're never going to convince newb merchant-guy to pay for a Byn escort when he's just getting going. 500 coins is way too much for him. So maybe the Byn shouldn't send a whole unit out with the guy, but just one or two troopers.
Or maybe the Byn should arrange for the extras to take the next Kadian/Salarrgosy/gypsy caravan, and get a kickback on the 100 'sid the newb merchant pays to the wagoneer, plus get hired to ride escort. So they make some extra coins on the deal, and a newb merchant doesn't die before amassing the riches to hire the Byn for real jobs in the future.
Maybe some player in the Byn needs to become inspired about getting a smallish wagon to use as a safer means of transporting Amos, Malik, and Talia the 'sid-miners to their weekend of debauchery in Luir's. (Hell, if LoD can make the northern compound happen, surely a wagon is a reachable goal for the Byn.)
Certainly the Byn should be making a "profit," but the profit doesn't necessarily have to be the same on every job (I would think, I dunno, I've never played a Byn Sarge). Part of the risk to the Byn of not making escort affordable is that Bynners get a lot less time adventuring, and that makes the Byn a less attractive clan to those who want adventuring, and fewer troopers means less ability to take contracts -> vicious cycle.
So yeah, what I'm saying is, assuming the Sergeants have the freedom to do so, I think the Byn should tune pricing and general strategies to the current environment so that travel can still happen, contracts still happen, everyone is happy, etc.
This seems like a great opportunity for player-driven creativity to me, with tons of possibilities.
Quote from: Salmon on December 08, 2009, 07:37:14 PM
It'd be nice if the Byn had their own stables like other clans.
Maybe someone just needs to drive this. I don't know, I'm not on staff, but I'm just sayin'...player-driven.
Quote from: Oleupata on December 08, 2009, 07:17:57 PM
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 08, 2009, 07:10:25 PM
In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.
This could be taken care of IG, not that it affects the discussion in principle.
Just sayin'. It simply hasn't been yet.
Having played a Byn Sergeant a few years back, again more recently, and played in the Byn with another non-leader more recently than that, I feel safe in saying that this situation hasn't changed at all. The reason it hasn't changed is because of IG economics.
If an escort were run for 500 'sid, the standard Byn breakdown for a group of a Sergeant, a Trooper and two Runners results in the Trooper, who is supposed to be taking regular contracts as their livelihood, receiving about 50 coins or so, depending on whether the Runners are paid. That's before paying for stable fees, which cost 20 coins for a stabling. So the Trooper is left with 30 coins. Now if the Sergeant is resourceful or stupid or nice, they might pay for water - if not, the Trooper must buy their own, and that could very well put the Trooper into the red. So for the Byn, it doesn't actually make sense to do an escort, even a relatively short one, for this sort of pay.
What the above essentially means is that anything 500 coins and under is out pretty much completely, unless it's some for an in-city, one-day job. But who needs to hire the Byn in the city? They have the protection of the militia and the law already. If they don't, they won't be hiring the Byn (and the Byn probably wouldn't work for them).
So this means for it to make IG economic sense for the Byn to take on a job, it must be 500+ coins. Realistically speaking, something in the neighbourhood of 750-1000 is doable.
Now, the flipside: who can afford to pay 750-1000 coins to hire the Byn? Generally for your average PC or NPC, this is unrealistic. Even for a wealthy indy (merchant?), that's not pocket change. And in order for them to want to hire the escort, they must either be desperate to move, or make enough as a result of the trip themselves to turn an actual profit. What about other non-independents, you ask? Well, clanned people.. they have their clan. If the clan itself doesn't already have a wagon and professional guards, they would at least have other clannies to travel with, negating the entire purpose of the Byn escort in the first place.
So, who's left? From what I found, generally the only times the Byn is hired is by some NPC organization for some event. This is generally for extra muscle/cannonfodder purposes. Once in a while, it's for an escort, but it's for some major RPT-style trip, where the NPC organization is able to foot the bill.
I found it was quite rare to have a PC hire the Byn for something in general, despite my working very hard at it trying to fulfill my leaderly duties. I think I only ever ran one escort job for a PC once, ever. The only reason for this is the IG economics which have not significantly changed in years. This is contrary to the documentation of course, which indicates that the Byn should be hired for all manner of things and escorts should be routine. It left the clan with doing a whole lot of sparring and chores, in between major events that were few and far between. Not to mention Troopers, who should be earning steady pay, completely broke.
Edit: I should mention that there was for a while an ongoing program led by the Byn imm(s) where the leaders were encouraged to make up imaginary contracts. There were also a few imm-created ones that were originally suggested that we could choose and pick from. We would then have to do whatever the contract called for - including playing make-believe if necessary, and on job 'success', we would 'get paid' by the VNPC through the imm. I think even the fact that the VNPC contract program was there reflected the relative absurdity of the IG situation.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 08, 2009, 07:42:10 PM
Quote from: Salmon on December 08, 2009, 07:37:14 PM
It'd be nice if the Byn had their own stables like other clans.
Maybe someone just needs to drive this. I don't know, I'm not on staff, but I'm just sayin'...player-driven.
I was repeatedly told this would never happen for IG reasons.
All Byn Sergeants are going to be different on how they charge for jobs or even whether they'll take certain jobs - every character's different.
But given the current state of the world, can you blame prices for escort to be so large?
Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.
Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?
GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..
Quote from: Manhattan on December 08, 2009, 07:50:19 PM
Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.
Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?
GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..
I think it's "promoted as a newbie clan" because it keeps newbies completely in-city boundaries (no wandering off death's) and your usually surrounded by other players - Not everyone who joins the Byn is a newbie, either. And when they are exposed to the outside, their typically given the 'low-down' on things.
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on December 08, 2009, 07:46:01 PM
I was repeatedly told this would never happen for IG reasons.
Has anyone asked since the change to make the game player-driven? If not, someone should ask.
Even without stables, come on, you guys...there's so much "no" in this thread. But Fathi played a very successful Byn Sergeant and seems to have come up with creative, flexible ways to do it. I don't remember her ever complaining of a lack of contracts, either. (Heck, I remember trying to hire her...they seemed very busy at the time.)
PCs need escort. The Byn needs contracts. Surely it can't be that hard to figure the problems out and make these things happen. Instead, what usually seems to happen is that Byn Sergeants just wait around to be introduced to the newest agent / noble / templar in hopes of getting a "big" contract from one of them. And it's just bad for the game, overall, when the Byn isn't getting out there and doing stuff.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 08, 2009, 07:58:32 PM
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on December 08, 2009, 07:46:01 PM
I was repeatedly told this would never happen for IG reasons.
Has anyone asked since the change to make the game player-driven? If not, someone should ask.
I haven't, not having played in the clan since. But if that change goes through, it could be real a sea-change for the clan and alter travel dynamics across the board for everyone else.
There is a reason Runners are not supposed to be paid. Maybe Sergeants who make a habit of paying Runners should experience mutiny from pissed off Troopers who can't earn any decent coin on contracts.
Quote from: Manhattan on December 08, 2009, 07:50:19 PM
Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.
Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?
GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..
Correction: The Byn rules. The Byn also has food and water, at least before the HRPT.
Having played the ever-loving shit out of the Byn, let me tell you that Xeran and IA have the right of it. Stables in the southern compound aren't going to happen. A sergeant will probably -not- let just one or two of his men go off unsupervised just to keep a contract "fair" priced. Prices will fluctuate. No one -has- to use the Byn, and Byn leaders know this. Negotiate IG -- any consensus found on these boards for "fair" prices and doable jobs is unfair to anyone who's playing a Byn leader.
Gimf, most Byn leaders don't just sit waiting for shit to happen. Not in my very hands-on, playing during the player-driven-change experience.
And Olgaris has an extremely valid but hilariously-difficult to enact point.
Heh.
I'm gonna answer two posts here.
First, Don't pay the runners unless they did a better job then the troopers or there was no troopers...or none survived. Thats the way my sarges have done it.
Second, Mutinies.
I've seen, been involved in and staged them with my troopers in the past.
Hell, I've had PCs in many clans involved in fragging clan mates. Usually bad officers.
Sometimes though the officer was just in the way of my PCs promotion to said rank.
And when I have an officer, fending off mutinies can be fun as well.
Wait 'til I'm a sarge, and I'll show you kids how it's done.
On a side note, the Byn is a great newbie clan because they have a consistently high head count, they consistently have good RPers to show new players the ropes, and the Byn atmosphere gives you a taste of how shitty life can be on Zalanthas... Sometimes literally.
The 300 coin fee makes IC sense, simply because you are paying for a service (training). Unlike other organizations, you can split if you want to. Consider it like paying a year's food and rent up-front.
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on December 08, 2009, 07:44:19 PM
If an escort were run for 500 'sid, the standard Byn breakdown for a group of a Sergeant, a Trooper and two Runners results in the Trooper, who is supposed to be taking regular contracts as their livelihood, receiving about 50 coins or so, depending on whether the Runners are paid.
I don't see how you wind up with 50 coins for the trooper. Whenever I've been in the Byn, it'd break down like this:
The sarge always handled the bugs, so take away 80 coins for stabling four mounts and you're left with 420 'sid to be split between the Sergeant and the trooper, the lower ranked of which would probably get at least 150. Pretty respectable pay for a days work. Runners never got paid: the whole point of being a runner is having to scrounge to survive. If they were lucky they got last pick of the leftover loot.
Quote from: Zoltan on December 08, 2009, 08:19:29 PM
Quote from: Manhattan on December 08, 2009, 07:50:19 PM
Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.
Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?
GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..
Correction: The Byn rules. The Byn also has food and water, at least before the HRPT.
I should say. the reason why I've been posting isn't to just be a naysayer. Personally, the Byn is my #1 favourite clan in the game, bar none. I love the grittiness, I love the comraderie, the infighting and the downlow politics. The reason I've been posting is the hope that we can make it better.
But to answer Manhattan's question, I think it's a great newbie clan because while some players may chafe at the relatively strict rules and schedule of the clan, these benefit newer players on several levels. First off, they promote player-longevity. Assuming of course, the newbie doesn't attack the beetle-mount instead of the beetle-faceeater that is! Player longevity allows a newbie to see how much wealth there is in interplayer relationships and evolving plotlines, which in my opinion really are the core of Armageddon. Second, they serve to ingrain in the newbie that they must play and react to the virtual world accordingly. If you break one of the rules, there will be corresponding consequences. The schedule is followed every day, and can potentially teach the newbie that yes, while doing chores may not bring coded benefits to their PC, it could result in a different sort of play, which can be equally, or even more rewarding. Finally, it introduces newbies to the grit and harshness of Armageddon - something that can be easily lost in other areas of the game, but in reality is so much a part of the game world as a whole.
Let's see...for a basic escort job, I'll be generous and say that the profit for a Trooper should be somewhere around 60 'sid. Escorts are easy pie.
So that means, assuming three troopers and a Sergeant (because you don't need more for your independent merchant who's just riding all by his lonesome to one of the cities):
60 x 4 = 240
20 x 4 for unstabling = 80
Sarge's extra pay = 20
---------------------------------
340 'sid, which methinks is a pretty decent cost for protection from the gith, elves, rogue mages, bandits, and wildlife who might just get a hankerin' for some nice chewie indie with cream filling and a side of a bagfull o' goods.
Runners don't get paid, because they're scum.
Parting thought: both as a Byn Sergeant and as a possible purveyor of contracts, feel free to offer non-monetary remuneration for the T'zai Byn's services.
That math doesn't look right...
Quote from: Twilight on December 08, 2009, 07:39:33 PM
My understanding is the bulk of the Byn would be hired out on more permanent basis, guarding things/people.
What if independent merchant could either hire 1) several Bynners for a one way trip from Nak to Tuluk for 500 coins or 2) Hire 1 specifc Trooper for 500 coins for 1/2 IG month and they could go wherever...
This, by all means. Mercenaries are generally employed temporary long-term. In Armageddon, or, in the Byn, they are not. I disagree with this, and I think it should be changed. If this is staff policy, then it needs to be changed, and if it is simply perception, then it needs to be changed. Mercenaries should be found everywhere, doing all sorts of combative jobs.
Quote from: Oleupata on December 08, 2009, 08:34:57 PM
Let's see...for a basic escort job, I'll be generous and say that the profit for a Trooper should be somewhere around 60 'sid. Escorts are easy pie.
So that means, assuming three troopers and a Sergeant (because you don't need more for your independent merchant who's just riding all by his lonesome to one of the cities):
60 x 4 = 240
20 x 4 for unstabling = 80
Sarge's extra pay = 20
---------------------------------
340 'sid, which methinks is a pretty decent cost for protection from the gith, elves, rogue mages, bandits, and wildlife who might just get a hankerin' for some nice chewie indie with cream filling and a side of a bagfull o' goods.
Runners don't get paid, because they're scum.
Parting thought: both as a Byn Sergeant and as a possible purveyor of contracts, feel free to offer non-monetary remuneration for the T'zai Byn's services.
-on second thought, I'm just going to self-edit that out - but what the Sergeant in the above example is doing is subsidizing the Troopers' pay out of their own pay. on two separate levels. 340 is also only the PC's share, so that doesn't reflect the cost to the 'client'-
Now, if the Sergeant decides to pay for stabling fees/water from the original contract price, this is the most efficient for pay distribution to the PC's. Some Sergeants (including myself) have occasionally paid these directly out of their own pay because of how poor their Troopers were. Sergeants will also routinely pay for Runners' stabling fees if they have spare mounts for them to use and they can ride - if not, they are walking and slow the entire group down. Sergeants that don't pay for these costs at all pass them onto the other PC's, which is normally how it should work, from what I remember (Troopers are expected to pay for their own costs, including for things like weapons, armour and maintenance from their own regular pay).
So if the job pays enough, everything works as it should. When I was playing a Sergeant, there wasn't really a lack of people asking to hire the Byn. That wasn't the problem. The problem is that I couldn't accept the job, or the potential client would just balk and walk away at the requested fee. The Byn can't regularly take such jobs that pay enough, because there aren't enough potential PC's that want to hire the Byn that can pay enough. And anyone that can pay enough, generally doesn't need to hire the Byn.
I wish troopers had more flexibility and trust. According to the docs they spend more time running contracts than training; according to IG experience, they're basically runners that get paid better (and don't have to do chores!). All IC contracts I've seen are led by sergeants are better. The pipe dream is where the sergeant gets a job, assigns it to some troopers and the troopers carry out the job and pay the company's share upon finishing it.
This is currently impossible because there are not enough PC troopers, and because troopers have the same limitations set on them as runners (don't go leave the city or enter dangerous situations without being led by a sergeant). Compare this to Kuraci Mercenaries (who have spent a year as a recruit), who typically have leeway to go on patrol as they please. These issues are probably related: why stay in the Byn after your training year is up if you're still sitting in the city waiting on the sergeant to take you on contract? Even if the rule was simply loosened to "don't leave the city unless on contract, it would be easier to stomach keeping a PC in the Byn as a trooper.
Most would-be hirers would probably be happy to pay a cheaper fee and hire two or three troopers. As it stands, it's almost impossible to hire Byn mercenaries without at least hiring the sergeant, and all of the runners he can bring to fill the void of the solid troopers he lacks.
Actually, according to the docs, When a trooper is not on contract or leave he/she should be training, Which means a majority of the time.
Also, Speaking as a player who runs his units with interunit ranks.
EI, first trooper or even corporal. Second trooper, rank and file, First runner then runner scum.
I can say that, Unless you have some very capable troopers (who would be sarges if they wanted or there was room) Letting troopers take contracts usually ends in you having no unit shortly after and having to spend a ton of time in the Gaj recruiting...again.
That being said.
If you do happen to have a capable unit...well, I never had problems from the higher ups for letting my troopers make short escort runs or long term bodyguard contracts in the city.
And thats another thing, In all my times in the Byn we often had long term contracts. Bodyguard, guarding the Tor academy after it got bombed and more, they do happen, could happen more often maybe.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 08, 2009, 07:10:25 PM
Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?
You're asking the wrong question. Of course nobody wants to risk their character for 30 coins, but your character might jump at the opportunity- given the socio-economic background of most byn mercenaries. Furthermore- I think most Byn members shouldn't even expect to be paid -at all-. Regardless of what their bosses make them do. I don't think players or characters should expect to get rich in the Byn.
It's definitely possible to make a profit in the byn. Otherwise we wouldn't have a player-lead Byn to begin with.
There's also the looting that's being discounted. Should the group meet a bad animal or a raider and do what they are paid for, there's also the loot that can be factored into pay.
There's also other creative ways to get coin, without necessarily having to go on a contract.
However, I will admit, it can be pretty tough to get by, which I think is what a mercenary life should be. There'll be high times, where you're practically swimming in coins, and low times when you have to scrape by with whatever.
You have to keep in mind that it's not only sergeants and troopers that receive shares of a contract. Two shares go to "higher places".
Also, as a sergeant, I wouldn't limit the escort to four Bynners if more want to go and cheat the others of a chance to get some action and time outside the city/compound. As a result, quite frequently there were seven to nine Bynners in the escort (albeit this was during a populous time in the clan).
Despite playing numerous 'successful' merchant pcs, I've only had the funds to hire the byn 1 time.
About 10 people turned out for 300 sid... and my pc felt so bad at how much stabling cost, she more than made up for it in extra coin that she handed over when she paid the guy. 100 sid to split 10 ways after stabling costs? Eep.
Yeah - Situations where someone is paying 300 small, don't be retarded and get 5-10 Bynners on the contract. Keep it small to 2-3. Yeah, I know "Oh but my PC wants to have fun, too!" bla bla bla.
Also, be smart about who you send on a mission - Not everyone needs to go and not your best everytime. Picking who should go on body-guard contracts should go in this order:
Strongest > Stronger > Strong > Average > Below Average > Incompetent.
Balance the weak with the strong if your one of those leaders who likes getting everyone involved.
There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else. Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.
Quote from: Halcyon on December 09, 2009, 01:56:49 AM
There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else. Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.
The sad fact is that the side jobs are usually far more lucrative than the actual escorts.
It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 09, 2009, 02:14:46 AM
Quote from: Halcyon on December 09, 2009, 01:56:49 AM
There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else. Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.
The sad fact is that the side jobs are usually far more lucrative than the actual escorts.
It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.
I believe this is, if not expressly forbidden, then it's at least implicitly discouraged. I remember an imm-animated LT telling (berating) one of my characters that the Byn aren't labourers, they're mercenaries, something apart from the sweaty masses who earn their coin by their sword.
My last Trooper did this anyway, and subsequently became wealthier by multiples than both of my Sergeants (who did not) combined.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 09, 2009, 02:14:46 AM
It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.
Because if you try to hire Gage Gritshaw to go greb for you, he pulls out eighteen knives and then bites your eyes out.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 09, 2009, 02:14:46 AM
Quote from: Halcyon on December 09, 2009, 01:56:49 AM
There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else. Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.
The sad fact is that the side jobs are usually far more lucrative than the actual escorts.
It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.
But grebbing is boooooring sometimes. :P Still, it's coin...
One thing that always deterred me from doing the "combo packages" was the fact that I couldn't stand extended trips. And by extended, I mean like "three hours longer than I expected to be playing," and then I wouldn't be able to log out until things were finished and by then I'd be a grumpy little baby. Those types of deals Halcyon mentioned -are- extremely effective; I'd never deny that.
I think what it really comes down to is that those who are playing the sergeants at the time are going to do what they want, and they should. That's the coolest part of the role. One of the coolest parts, anyway.
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on December 09, 2009, 02:58:03 AM
I believe this is, if not expressly forbidden, then it's at least implicitly discouraged. I remember an imm-animated LT telling (berating) one of my characters that the Byn aren't labourers, they're mercenaries, something apart from the sweaty masses who earn their coin by their sword.
It is discouraged, but it happens out of sheer need anyhow, which is an indication that the Byn really aren't profiting much from their escorts as it is.
Plus, new Runners are so often ill-equipped and mountless that they're practically helpless. From the standpoint of unit effectiveness alone, it's a good idea to take them out on a few grebbing expeditions so they can buy a mount and some armor.
Suit 'em up in gith gear, they already smell like shit.
Mounts are trickier, though. I wish the Troopers could just ride the Runners.
So, in answer to all of these points, maybe:
1. Only Troopers and above should go on contracts. This policy would have a few benefits:
a) Everyone going would have a year's worth of training and be fairly effective. And reliable too, since they lasted their year.
b) No issues of Runners doing the bulk of the work and not getting paid.
c) No issues of half-equipped Runners being yanked out on killer contracts before they've learned to defend themselves somewhat.
d) Smaller group sizes mean lower fees are more practical.
e) More Runners would (in principle) last to being Troopers.
2. Only Runners are allowed (or even taken out) to greb.
a) Who cares, they're Runner scum, not really a part of the Byn yet.
b) Gives them the opportunity to buy much-needed armor and mounts.
c) Troopers can look down on them all the more.
d) They'd still get to leave the city on non-contract grebbing expeditions or hunts.
In my experience playing a Byn Sergeant is probably one of the most intensive roles in the game. It's a mixture of almost desperately trying to find a contract that isn't escorting/grebbing (for gickers), as well as trying to maintain what really is a low-income clan. It's also a balancing act between keeping Runners playing through the full year(or is it a month? when i was a Sergeant it was shortened to a IG month based on Sergeants discretion), and I'll tell you one thing, sparring/eating stew/bar idling at the Gaj can grow tiring to any poor scrub. I found that taking Runners out on various contracts was a very good way to establish trust/knowledge of skill/and overall create a relationship between the clan/sergeant and that character. I'd think that you'd see very less Troopers if Runners were not brought on contracts.
On to contracts, it's almost a full time job scheduling jobs both with the client and the players. Making sure you have enough players that can make it, making sure you can make it, making perpetration. Usually the actual reward is hopefully some fun cannon-fodder RP. The only rich Bynner I knew did not make it from contracts.
The main problem really is IG economics, definitely inflated prices (imo atleast) as well as clan leaders usually having little actual coin compared to indy "twinks". I'm really not sure how to fix it. I'm hoping in 2.Arm that a lot of npc 'mundane' jobs are added for mercenaries. Automated stuff. Whether it be guarding a wagon on the road. Guarding a certain area during a NPC's merchant meeting, etc. That IMO is the best way to make the life of a mercenary a lot more funner, automated NPC contracts. And inbetween those PCs can hire them for the real fun cannon-fodder dying stuff.
Another thing I guess I'll bring up that was a problem, in my time at least. Was not having a pyramid structure to the clan. There was often 2-4 PC Sergeants, but rarely is there a PC Lieutenant. I found this at times very difficult to deal with as the 'pyramid' was pretty much without its PC 'capstone'. Any dealings with higher authority had to be regulated with the Imms whom were often quite busy with many other things and it would often take a week or so to get any response, which often made my job quite a bit harder. I noticed that there is a PC Lieutenant in the Byn now (or was? dunno about after HRPT), I think this is CRUCIAL for the Byn, absolutely critical. If a PC Lieutenant dies/stores/retires the Imms should either promote a long standing PC Sergeant or make an announcement for the role and RP them being transfered from another war band.
I agree with Vessol, there should always be a Byn Lieutenant. Either promoted IG, or as a sponsored role (every other city clan has them).
I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.
Everything depends on the Sergeant. Having played one or two, I can tell you that there are hundreds of interesting jobs to be done for reasonable amounts of sid. Yes, Runners should be paid next to nothing, and any half-witted Sergeant will find a way around the expensive stabling fees. The great thing about the Byn is the EXTREME turn over rate. Crappy sarge? They'll likely be dead in a month or so. And if not, there's always mutiny.
My only beef with the Byn is the incredible runner turn over rate. Hilariously, at least half the runners that pay their dues will die before reaching their Trooper phase, deserting, or leaving unceremoniously. My only plead to players is that if you're going to go out and get yourselves killed or whatever, don't join the Byn and save your local Sarge some time. Then again, those 300 fees add up after a while (and are very useful for unstabling mounts, if you know what I mean).
Quote from: Olgaris on December 08, 2009, 08:15:42 PM
There is a reason Runners are not supposed to be paid. Maybe Sergeants who make a habit of paying Runners should experience mutiny from pissed off Troopers who can't earn any decent coin on contracts.
QFT
I think if you take a runner on a contract, you should give them something - even if it's only 10 'sid. Otherwise, why would they even agree to risk life and limb on those crazy outings the Byn tend to take? That's a good way to cause mass mutiny and desertions.
(Which I guess could be interesting.)
I like Salt Merchant's ideas.
Here's a common misconception: Runners are the Byn's 'recruits'. While true to some degree, Runners are primarily in the Byn for experience and training, not to work. If they go on contract, they are more along for the ride and the experience than actually doing the work. This is why you pay to join the Byn, they are doing you a service, not the other way around.
This made more sense when the militia, noble and merchant houses sent more prospective recruits to the Byn for training. This doesn't seem to happen as much anymore. Also, the imbalance of Runners:Troopers, (which may be the fault of Rhyden's 'Runners deserting or getting themselves killed' phenomenon, or maybe a year is too long to wait?) means Runners end up making up the bulk of any contract.
Maybe runners should try and find a sponsor before (or even after) joining? You would have to be pretty convincing though to have someone dish out 300 and anything else which your newb runner would need during the time, but still...worth a try for those willing.
Sorry but... the T'zai Byn is not a school. The practice of clans routinely sponsoring runners to join the Byn and then quit after their first year was stamped out a good while ago. Training future clan guards is not profitable for the Byn, and nor should it be desirable for anyone else. Don't forget that the Byn have a stink that is not easy to wash off. They're dirty, foul-mouthed, often undisciplined, and often drunk. These are not good qualities in a noble/merchant house guard.
Quote from: Spoon on December 09, 2009, 06:23:43 AM
I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.
Every merchant and noble house does not have their own "soldiers." That's actually very far from the truth. There are certain noble houses in both cities which may not hire "soldiers" at all, from an OOC perspective, in order to keep PCs who want to be soldier-warrior-ly funneled toward the Byn, AoD, Tor, Lyksae, and Tuluki Legions. While Kurac does have a force of "soldiers," to my knowledge neither Kadius nor Salarr hire for that purpose.
So, there are still lots of open Houses which have good reason to hire the Byn, and who are not competing with the Byn over PCs. If they're not hiring the Byn, then there's some other reason for that.
Quote from: Spoon on December 09, 2009, 09:33:09 AM
Here's a common misconception: Runners are the Byn's 'recruits'. While true to some degree, Runners are primarily in the Byn for experience and training, not to work.
Re Schools: Yes, it is a school for some. As outlined in the documentation.
Runners: You should only be paid at the sergeant's discretion, and that's for going above and beyond. As a trooper I'd be pretty pissed off some piece of scrab bait was cutting into my share unless it was earned.
Contracts: During my tenure as a Sergeant , I managed to snag a few decent gigs --- but I was always fighting for a permanent contract. Something that shouldn't be too hard right now, given the recent catastrophe.
Quote from: jstorrie on December 09, 2009, 03:18:09 AM
Suit 'em up in gith gear, they already smell like shit.
Mounts are trickier, though. I wish the Troopers could just ride the Runners.
Quote from: chuci on December 09, 2009, 08:19:12 AM
I think if you take a runner on a contract, you should give them something - even if it's only 10 'sid. Otherwise, why would they even agree to risk life and limb on those crazy outings the Byn tend to take? That's a good way to cause mass mutiny and desertions.
I remember my first times in the Byn, us runners used to FIGHT over gith gear. For some because it was armor, for others because the 10 sid we could get for that gear would mean we got SOMETHING for the run. If I were a sergeant I'd point out the gith gear. "Hurry up, Runner Amos, there's your share!"
Good times.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 09, 2009, 11:46:11 AM
Quote from: Spoon on December 09, 2009, 06:23:43 AM
I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.
Every merchant and noble house does not have their own "soldiers." That's actually very far from the truth. There are certain noble houses in both cities which may not hire "soldiers" at all, from an OOC perspective, in order to keep PCs who want to be soldier-warrior-ly funneled toward the Byn, AoD, Tor, Lyksae, and Tuluki Legions. While Kurac does have a force of "soldiers," to my knowledge neither Kadius nor Salarr hire for that purpose.
So, there are still lots of open Houses which have good reason to hire the Byn, and who are not competing with the Byn over PCs. If they're not hiring the Byn, then there's some other reason for that.
He raises a point, though, that I could agree with, for the sake of playability and distribution and such. Perhaps Kadius and Salarr should not hire hunters at all, only crafters. Perhaps those clans should rely on the Byn for resource gathering, and maybe the Byn needs to redefine its jobs. That's a huge amount of play-time right there. Noble Houses with no militant background could be restricted to one PC Bodyguard per Noble, with a reserve of one.
Mercenaries are generally required to be loyal to their employer, because reputation matters. So the fact that someone is not a life-sworn employee really doesn't hold water in many cases. The Byn should be the place where you can say, 'I've been everywhere, and done everything'.
Replace "soldiers" with "people who fight and do what soldiers do, even though they are not called soldiers". Which is in fact very close to the truth, Gimfalisette.
Quote from: Spoon on December 09, 2009, 01:05:27 PM
Replace "soldiers" with "people who fight and do what soldiers do, even though they are not called soldiers".
= All GMH/Noble house employees who can wield a blade.
OOC perspective: Byn sucks.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 09, 2009, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 09, 2009, 11:46:11 AM
Quote from: Spoon on December 09, 2009, 06:23:43 AM
I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.
Every merchant and noble house does not have their own "soldiers." That's actually very far from the truth. There are certain noble houses in both cities which may not hire "soldiers" at all, from an OOC perspective, in order to keep PCs who want to be soldier-warrior-ly funneled toward the Byn, AoD, Tor, Lyksae, and Tuluki Legions. While Kurac does have a force of "soldiers," to my knowledge neither Kadius nor Salarr hire for that purpose.
So, there are still lots of open Houses which have good reason to hire the Byn, and who are not competing with the Byn over PCs. If they're not hiring the Byn, then there's some other reason for that.
He raises a point, though, that I could agree with, for the sake of playability and distribution and such. Perhaps Kadius and Salarr should not hire hunters at all, only crafters. Perhaps those clans should rely on the Byn for resource gathering, and maybe the Byn needs to redefine its jobs. That's a huge amount of play-time right there. Noble Houses with no militant background could be restricted to one PC Bodyguard per Noble, with a reserve of one.
Mercenaries are generally required to be loyal to their employer, because reputation matters. So the fact that someone is not a life-sworn employee really doesn't hold water in many cases. The Byn should be the place where you can say, 'I've been everywhere, and done everything'.
This sounds largely like an ic issue. Perhaps an enterprising Byn leader should attempt to convince them to outsource all of their combat needs to the Byn.
The ooc issue I see is that there is no way to codedly differentiate between a one year byn graduate, a one year Tor academy graduate, and a hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year.
The impact of something like that would be very far-reaching. Merchant houses, which already tend to charge high prices for their goods, would have to jack fees up even more to compensate for paying the Byn. It would put their services out of reach for an even larger majority of players.
GMH hunters are not mercenaries or soldiers. They may be able to fight, but that's not their purpose. They do, however, serve a critical role in their clans.
If the payment for more long term requests were more reasonable with the way the game economy is set up, I think it would be more possible, but as it is, hiring a Byn unit of let's say, five, costs a whole month's salary for most full-time hunters, and that's for a day IG... to keep that up long time would drain all of the coins in a Houses bank, which I find really impossible.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 09, 2009, 01:04:20 PM
He raises a point, though, that I could agree with, for the sake of playability and distribution and such. Perhaps Kadius and Salarr should not hire hunters at all, only crafters. Perhaps those clans should rely on the Byn for resource gathering, and maybe the Byn needs to redefine its jobs. That's a huge amount of play-time right there. Noble Houses with no militant background could be restricted to one PC Bodyguard per Noble, with a reserve of one.
Forbidding GMHs from hiring hunters is a really terrible idea, because there are lots of players who want to play hunters and who enjoy the relative freedom that playing within Kadius or Salarr gives them. Those players, for those concepts, would not join the Byn; and since Kadius and Salarr don't really need 99% of what PC hunter/grebbers bring in, there wouldn't be any incentive for the GMHs to hire the Byn except on the rare occasions they already do.
Also, noble houses without militant backgrounds are already restricted in the way you suggest; they don't hire guards unless there is a defined need for a PC guard. I know this, having played in some of them; when I played my Dasari noble I was not allowed to hire PC guards, because Dasari is not a militant clan. The same is true for other non-militant noble house clans I've played in. Yes, sometimes there are miscommunications between staff and PC leaders and for some reason a non-militant clan appears to have "soldier" types, but it is an aberration and eventually gets corrected.
The best solutions to the "issues" that have been presented with the Byn getting contracts or runners are not going to be solutions that attempt to strongarm the playerbase into doing something. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, after all.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 08, 2009, 07:10:25 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette
If travel is made more dangerous, I would like to see more encouragement given to Salarr, Kurac, Kadius, and the gypsies to take on paying passengers; and more encouragement to the Byn to charge reasonable fees for escort.
What would people consider to be a reasonable fee?
In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.
Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?
I don't think this is really a problem as much as it is the consequences of recent IC economy and environment. If the Byn Sarge charges too much, they'll likely lose business. If they charge too little, they'll likely lose mercenaries.
To address the op, whatever the Byn Sergeant's deal is with their contractor is reasonable. Is 500 from one city to the other too much? It may have been at some point in the past, but presently, I think that's a very reasonable price. Like Fathi said, Byn Sergeants should be haggling depending on number of people being escorted, wagons, cargo, etc.
As for risking your character's life for 30 coins, that's the beauty of the Byn. You have to fight tooth and nail for every sid earned, in comparison to the GMHs where you are paid constant stipend whether you work or not.
I think people are missing a key point - the Byn guards are a disposable investment. Merchant houses/nobles train, outfit, supply food and water, provide lodging, and pay their employees on a regular basis. For most there are even terms of service and loyalty/trust that is gained with their employees over time. Merchant houses especially are more likely to look at a situation such as a wagon escort and think to themselves, 'I have spent thousands of sid on each of my men over the past couple years, they are all trustworthy and well trained. If even one of those men fall to an unexpected gith attack, I will lose thousands of sid worth of investment in the House.'
Solution? They hire the Byn, because for comparably low cost (lets say 500 sid) they know that they can keep their ongoing investments safe in the wagon while several mercenaries that they know are unlikely to turn tail and run due to their reputation will stand and fight, and even -die- to protect them...either through victory or buying the House time to escape.
This is basically insurance. The Byn is an insurance policy, and the fee paid is the premium on the insurance policy. It buys the Houses and independents security that they might not need for a low rate compared to what is at risk and really pays off dividends IF the crap hits the fan. On the other side of the coin the Byn relies on those premiums paid under the assumption that most of the time their men are prepared enough that crap WONT hit the fan but of course it always eventually does. Its the RL equivalent of the Byn being an insurance underwriter and all the clients being policy holders.
So - long story short, 500 sid might be expensive but taken in the context of how much of your own investment (both virtual and PC) is being protected is it really so bad? It might be 10 wagon escorts at 500 a pop before something happens, but when it -does- happen isn't the value of your own life, your wagon, your own guards, and your own merchandise worth more than the 5000 sid you have spent up to that point?
Everyone complains about the Byn insurance premiums, but nobody complains when disaster hits and that policy pays off.
If a fix is not to lower stabling costs maybe a fix is for Byn to negotiate for lower stabling costs.
I'm just saying, it seems once you take stabling costs out of the equation the price starts to get lower.
Quote from: janeshephard on December 09, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
If a fix is not to lower stabling costs maybe a fix is for Byn to negotiate for lower stabling costs.
I'm just saying, it seems once you take stabling costs out of the equation the price starts to get lower.
Or build their own stable.
Another ic solution to an ic problem. :D
Quote from: staggerlee on December 09, 2009, 01:55:28 PM
Quote from: janeshephard on December 09, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
If a fix is not to lower stabling costs maybe a fix is for Byn to negotiate for lower stabling costs.
I'm just saying, it seems once you take stabling costs out of the equation the price starts to get lower.
Or build their own stable.
Another ic solution to an ic problem. :D
It's not very likely to happen, not at all.
T'zai Byn:
500 'sid could save you your live or more!
heh... gieko commercials are funny...
anyway... You can't really negociate stable fees with city stables.
And as people said, the Byn cannot build a stable for ic reasons.
The only thing that will affect price is current world conditions and what the Sergeant and the client haggle about - just like any other deal.
The consensus from the imms is that stabling costs are in-line with what they should cost?
This isn't a rhetorical question. I've just not see a discussion on it.
Everyone's so caught up in the discussion about whether Houses can afford to hire the Byn; generally speaking, of course Houses can afford to hire the Byn. What the OP quoted me as saying, to start this thread off, was not a reference to whether the Houses can hire the Byn; it was my concern that travel would become both too dangerous and too expensive for independent types. For example, once upon a time I played a Tuluki bard or two who traveled the world; Tuluki bards are not usually rich and aren't usually clanned into a clan that will take them anywhere. In the current environment, a Tuluki bard who wants to travel will have a really hard time doing so. There are also indie merchants wandering around who undoubtedly just want to play the traveling salesman gig, but especially starting out, now, this is going to be really hard for them.
What I don't want to see is the world becoming much more insular, navel-gazing, un-fluid, or prohibitive to certain character concepts.
Ideally, someone would just be running a semi-safe regular "bus" service with stops in the cities so that these nitty-gritty characters can still travel. But since we don't have that coded like it's planned to be in 2.ARM, if anything like that happens in the current game it's got to be run by PCs.
Well, just from a strategic view, if a convoy becomes "regular" it stops being "safe"...
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on December 09, 2009, 02:05:47 PM
Well, just from a strategic view, if a convoy becomes "regular" it stops being "safe"...
I don't mean regular as in scheduled. I mean regular as in happening frequently. A Byn Sergeant could conceivably develop a group of contacts, 5 to 10 indies who want to travel between cities, and tell all of them that next week is the time, get your ass to the stables at whenever. Splitting a fee of 500 between 3 to 5 indie PCs makes the fee pretty reasonable for anyone.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 09, 2009, 02:09:27 PM
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on December 09, 2009, 02:05:47 PM
Well, just from a strategic view, if a convoy becomes "regular" it stops being "safe"...
I don't mean regular as in scheduled. I mean regular as in happening frequently. A Byn Sergeant could conceivably develop a group of contacts, 5 to 10 indies who want to travel between cities, and tell all of them that next week is the time, get your ass to the stables at whenever. Splitting a fee of 500 between 3 to 5 indie PCs makes the fee pretty reasonable for anyone.
As much as I'd like to see this happen, Gimf, and believe me I've tried, it's about as likely as Byn getting their own stable. Serious kudos to anyone who can pull off a regular caravan though, Byn or no.
What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?
As a Sergeant I got several "regular" contracts that usually involved either escorting indie PCs, GMH, and patrolling with a Templar. These usually worked well for a few weeks but usually playtimes would scatter, people would disappear, or some other random force would make this not last that long. I again contend that for mercenaries, the best way to solve the issues with mundane jobs is to "outsource" it to NPCs and VNPCs, namely scripted jobs. Afterall, we do live in a world inhabited by more then just PCs, think about it. Merchants and GMHs already get a good amount of their money from VNPC scripts(ie: buying goods from stores, or at least I believe its from that) or just simply selling goods to NPCs whom have coin. Why would a NPC who runs regular caravan services or guard duties, etc, be any different? I'm aware that such a thing could throw out potential RP between clans, but lets face it, most escorts I did amounted to "n n n e e e n e n w" throw out various emotes, take a breather, and usually that was it. Most of my Bynners would usually be semi-afk as the job is so mundane.
It takes a burden off many other various clans to hire the Byn to "entertain" the players, "throw a bone to" is a more better term(many employers I realized behind the screen often felt bad and wanted to provide some fun for the Byn), and allow them to save 'sid they would spend rustling up a PC escort and rather save it to perhaps do some real PC pushing and get something more exciting(and better paying) going.
Of course there is no silver bullet to this issue, but I think that diversifying employment opportunities is a primary goal.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 09, 2009, 02:24:05 PM
What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?
A barrier for a stable? From my own knowledge, I don't believe it would be effected at all, I highly doubt there is anything PCs could do to make a Byn stable. But really, I never found issue with stabling fee's as I handled them as operating costs instead of usually making Bynners pay for em. I would record income vs expense where income would include Byn joining fee's, often we made more then enough profit to cover expenses. I made these as IC OOC reports to the imms(emails). The imms that ran the clan seemed to be fine with that.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 09, 2009, 02:24:05 PM
What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?
The biggest barrier, imo, is having a leader stay alive long enough to make their regular caravan a reality (something I'm personally terrible for :P).
Other barriers would include:
- Gathering enough paying travellers
- Gathering enough trained guards for mobile transport
-
Raiders (desert elves and gith come to mind)
- Arranging ooc time for transportation (raiders are inevitably going to catch on to these, see above)
- Getting a wagon for safer transport
- As you said Gimf, yes, current game environment is definitely going to have some affect
If you can break down these barriers to secure a regular caravan, good on you. Currently, with said barriers and current game environment, I believe securing a regular successful caravan transport is next to impossible. It may be easier if you are in a GMH clan that has access to a working wagon, but again, you still have to go through these barrier steps.
That being said, I would love it if someone proved me wrong and created a successful caravan system.
I still maintain that negotiating contracts, establishing routes, getting larger payments or motivating recruits to work for less are all things that can be handled ic, by enterprising clan leaders.
People keep saying "But that would be difficult!" and yet somehow I fail to see how that's a fair rebuttal. It's a game, and most people that accept leadership roles in it understand that they might be taking on a challenge. The game would be awfully dull if all of their challenges were solved through oocly dictated rule changes.
EDIT: To be fair my clan leader is probably just 10000x awesomer than all of yours. Suckers.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 09, 2009, 02:02:49 PM
Ideally, someone would just be running a semi-safe regular "bus" service with stops in the cities so that these nitty-gritty characters can still travel. But since we don't have that coded like it's planned to be in 2.ARM, if anything like that happens in the current game it's got to be run by PCs.
In actual fact, the Byn used to do this for a significant period of time. It seemed to go away after a while, then it was revived again for a while. Not sure if the Byn is still currently doing it.
There were regularly OOC scheduled times for the trip, twice a week. The Byn never had a problem with Bynners wanting to go, so there was always plenty of security. The problem was finding PC travellers that wanted to go. I think this was partially due to PC's not wanting to have to pay what they saw as too much. We would have the odd PC pay enough to make the trip worthwhile all by themselves. Sometimes we had 2 or 3 PC's show up wanting to travel and the lower fees they wanted to pay, when put together, made up enough. But usually it ended up being the Sergeant would just accept whatever the client wanted to pay and the trip was made worthwhile for the Byn by grebbing/trading. Sometimes nobody showed up at all, and the entire trip was done to do the grebbing/trading (with the excuse/justification that there might be a client picked up in one of the stops on the way).
I don't know if the imms stopped the Byn Bus because of that or whether it petered out for other reasons, but I remember seeing it revived by player-initiative at least once.
Quote from: Vessol on December 09, 2009, 02:31:31 PM
A barrier for a stable? From my own knowledge, I don't believe it would be effected at all, I highly doubt there is anything PCs could do to make a Byn stable. But really, I never found issue with stabling fee's as I handled them as operating costs instead of usually making Bynners pay for em. I would record income vs expense where income would include Byn joining fee's, often we made more then enough profit to cover expenses. I made these as IC OOC reports to the imms(emails). The imms that ran the clan seemed to be fine with that.
Without going into it too much, there is one way in particular that a Byn leader could pay for stabling/water costs without passing them onto the PC's. Only, that wasn't supposed to be done. When I played a leader, the Byn joining fees were also untouchable. If they've changed both or either of these, then I can certainly see how things would be much easier now.
Heh, Nothing is untouchable.
My last Byn sarge dipped into the entrance fees. Nobody said anything.
Of course he was bringing in large sums otherwise so, Who is going to complain about some skimming if that unit is bringing in 4 times the net of any other unit anyway?
Also, Byn sarges should remember that if you do an escort and deadhead back, take your time, pick up stuff on the way. Remember trade goods. Sure, the byn is not a merchant/trading clan. But there is no reason why a merc would not pick up a few northy items to make the trip back to nak a profit.
If my last Byn sarge was famous for anything it was how many times he called anything laying on the ground a pile of sid. Can't pass a pile of coin laying on the sand...everything sells.
In the real world, everything has a price. Everything. Even gross things. ESPECIALLY gross things, if you'd believe it.
In Zalanthas I imagine it'd be x10.
Quote from: Jdr on December 09, 2009, 04:28:39 PM
In the real world, everything has a price. Everything. Even gross things. ESPECIALLY gross things, if you'd believe it.
In Zalanthas I imagine it'd be x10.
Holding up his pile of inix dung, a Byn Runner ask you in sirish: "Wanna buy some miracle grew?"
Quote from: staggerlee on December 09, 2009, 01:13:01 PM
The ooc issue I see is that there is no way to codedly differentiate between a one year byn graduate, a one year Tor academy graduate, and a hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year.
Sure there is. The hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year is probably going to be a way better fighter than the Tor academy graduate and the Byn graduate because he was codedly training consistantly.
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on December 09, 2009, 03:52:48 PM
Without going into it too much, there is one way in particular that a Byn leader could pay for stabling/water costs without passing them onto the PC's. Only, that wasn't supposed to be done. When I played a leader, the Byn joining fees were also untouchable. If they've changed both or either of these, then I can certainly see how things would be much easier now.
Both your points are still true so far as I know.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 09, 2009, 02:24:05 PM
What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?
I may have misunderstood the question. If you meant barriers to creating a Byn stable, I'd imagine it's just a matter of building said stable and getting thumbs up from staff.
As for Byn funds being untouchable? That's hogwash. I've dipped into the Byn account on several occasions for Byn-related needs. Just be sure to let staff know in your weekly updates if your Byn leader is being honest or dishonest about what they're doing with that sid. ;)
Quote from: Rhyden on December 10, 2009, 10:57:45 AM
As for Byn funds being untouchable? That's hogwash. I've dipped into the Byn account on several occasions for Byn-related needs. Just be sure to let staff know in your weekly updates if your Byn leader is being honest or dishonest about what they're doing with that sid. ;)
Exactly. I had a Byn sergeant once who would occasionally take drinking money from the account to "grease the wheels" on his recruiting and contract-getting drives. By "grease the wheels" I mean "get myself drunk so I don't die from boredom." :D He only did this occasionally and would take small-ish amounts, but I kept the staff updated on what exactly he was doing so a Captain or Lieutenant could catch him if it got out of hand. That's also good coin for occasionally paying group stable fees (if coin's really that tight) and buying mounts if you can get a group for a discount. Still, watching that account amount steadily continue to get massive... that was nice.
Different Sergeants, different perceptions then. My Sergeant only made one request to tap the Byn funds. It was to buy a spare mount, and it was denied. He also mistakingly deposited his first recruiting fee in the wrong place, so that his Byn deposits and recruiting tally didn't quite match, and I got a staff email asking about it.
In any case, regularly covering stable fees using the Byn funds would have resulted in the Byn funds being depleted rather than increasing. Not something that would be overlooked, in my opinion. So the profitability issue and Gimfalisette's question still stands.
Yeah, don't do it regularly. As things progressed, one of my Byn leader characters would just pay for things out of his own pocket.
Quote from: musashi on December 10, 2009, 12:45:50 AM
Quote from: staggerlee on December 09, 2009, 01:13:01 PM
The ooc issue I see is that there is no way to codedly differentiate between a one year byn graduate, a one year Tor academy graduate, and a hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year.
Sure there is. The hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year is probably going to be a way better fighter than the Tor academy graduate and the Byn graduate because he was codedly training consistantly.
Sort of. They'd certainly be far better at a number of skills that are practically untrainable in most clans. There are certain kinds of training that are hard to perform with unarmed combatants, though.
Quote from: Zoltan on December 10, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
Yeah, don't do it regularly.
Or, alternatively, do it regularly and deal with the IC consequences later.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 10, 2009, 05:42:39 PM
Different Sergeants, different perceptions then. My Sergeant only made one request to tap the Byn funds. It was to buy a spare mount, and it was denied. He also mistakingly deposited his first recruiting fee in the wrong place, so that his Byn deposits and recruiting tally didn't quite match, and I got a staff email asking about it.
In any case, regularly covering stable fees using the Byn funds would have resulted in the Byn funds being depleted rather than increasing. Not something that would be overlooked, in my opinion. So the profitability issue and Gimfalisette's question still stands.
I think the point to remember here is that when the staff tells you something "as the superior in your clan" ... that is not the staff telling you something as the staff making a rule you have to OOC'ly follow. It's them playing a character or representing one via email correspondence.
Also if the numbers don't add up. Cheat. Doctor them.
Quote from: musashi on December 11, 2009, 04:38:33 AM
Also if the numbers don't add up. Cheat. Doctor them.
The question here is profitability versus affordability. If a Sergeant has to embezzle Byn funds consistently to make contracts seem sufficiently profitable, an absurd situation is created. It's better just not to take the contract if the client won't pay enough coin to make it profitable. The problem is the perception of what is a reasonable amount to pay.
I posted a couple of ideas (way) above for lowering the price while remaining profitable. Someone else has mentioned an alternative; let the independent clients gather together to travel in groups of two or three. That cuts the individual cost of the contract in two or more.
I was just talking about doctoring the numbers because your Byn Sergeant is a money grubbing uncring asshole of a human being and likes taking more money than his fair share entitles him to.
Staff has already pointed out how for under 400 coins you can make an escourt run WITH stabling fees AND two Troopers AND your extra Sergeant's cut and everyone who should be paid, gets paid.
Seems like the profit is there to be had. Just stop paying Runners, because they aren't supposed to be getting money anyway.
I'm just going to post this as clearly as I can possibly make it.
One Sergeant, three Troopers, five Runners. 500 coins less 160 in stable fees leaves 340 coins.
One share for the warband. One for the Lieutenant. Two for the Sergeant, one for each Trooper. That's a total of seven shares. 340 / 7 = 48 coins a share.
1. It hardly matters if the Sergeant adds one more share to split among the Runners. 340 / 8 = 42 coins a share.
2. The complaint is that 500 is too high a fee. Do the math for 250 instead of 500. That's 90 coins to be split in seven. 12 lousy coins a share for two days (remember the escort has to come back) of risk and hard riding.
Is the problem clear now, everyone? If not, I give up.
A sergeant, three troopers and five runners? Who would bring nine (!) mercenaries on for a simple escort contract? ???
Quote from: HTX on December 11, 2009, 05:31:46 AM
A sergeant, three troopers and five runners? Who would bring nine (!) mercenaries on for a simple escort contract? ???
A Sergeant who is interested in running an active outfit and who understands that idle Runners just get into trouble out of boredom whereas Runners that get to do something are a lot more industrious and cheerful.
But it hardly matters if the Runners are omitted. Instead of 160 coins in stable fees, it would be 80. That's eighty divided by seven shares still, which is eleven extra coins a share. Hardly worth a sneeze.
I never played a Byn Sergeant. Here is how I'd think if I were, though.
On simple Tuluk-to-Allanak escort missions (or any other kind really) where you want to bring every Bynner you can, just have everyone walk. Voila, you solve several problems at once:
- you don't pay so much on stable fees.
- the trip takes a good deal longer (but a realistic amount of time), and it's technically more dangerous.
- you have to pick places to rest, which actually takes a bit of strategy, and so it will be more interesting.
- the escorted feels like they're getting their money's worth, and tells their friends "A+ would buy again from this seller", which means he'll come back to you again, and others will use you too.
- grit harshness etc
The only caveat: invest in a tent or two. But it's like buying a washing machine vs. going to the laundromat. If you go to the laundromat (stable) for several years to wash your clothes (escort merchants), you will eventually pay more money than you ever would have to pay for a washing machine (tent).
Now throw in the loot gathered up from killing gith/raptor/whatever else you find along the way ... and the fact that you should have bought some stuff in Allanak that sells well in Luirs or Tuluk ... now do the same thing on the return trip ...
I'm not even throwing up the absolutely silly profit to be made if you tame a few choice northern critters and cattle haul them down to the south for the slaughter house ...
It seems to me like one or two indie merchants doing an obsidian/jewlery run from Allanak to Tuluk, followed by a silk/wood run from Tuluk back to Allanak could afford to pay the Byn at least 500 coins and still make a retarded profit for themselves when its all said and done.
It also seems to me like a Byn group could, without even the NEED for the escourt contract go make a killing for themselves escourting vNPCs up to the Tuluk and back if they then did all the stuff I mentioned above for fun as well.
So I still feel like Sergeants who can't make ends meet just aren't being resourceful enough.
You can make so much more than 500 coins on a round trip trading run to Tuluk and back ... if people are complaining that 500 coins is too much, then go find some friends and rub your pennies together.
You guys have to remember that all of that takes TIME. It is hard to keep a lot of people organized and on the same schedule for more than an hour or two. When I played a Kuraci Sergeant, overnight multi-person trips out into the desert were rare for just that reason.
Quote from: a strange shadow on December 11, 2009, 08:47:21 AM
You guys have to remember that all of that takes TIME. It is hard to keep a lot of people organized and on the same schedule for more than an hour or two. When I played a Kuraci Sergeant, long multi-person trips out into the desert were rare for just that reason.
You can do things like that with only two or three people. During prime playing hours I don't think it's too hard to get two or three people together for a quick 2 hour run.
I admit that's just speculation though, based entirely off the fact that I've had characters who played off peak and still managed to get two or three people together to go hunting or what not nearly every day.
But if that takes too much time, adjust ... set up missions where you all go out and mine 'sid closer to home so that it only takes 30 minutes. Or go scrab hunting on behalf of some vnpc shop keeper who hired the Byn to restock him with chitin shells ... I mean, it seems like the people in this thread are making the assumption that the Byn is only there for war time fodder and escourt duty ... is that really the case?
I believe that earlier in the thread someone posted that the docs suggest Byn aren't supposed to be doing greb-work.
I just felt compelled to mention the time constraints. Salt Merchant was talking about a pretty huge group of people.
I feel like Salt Merchant was also assuming that you have to take all 9+ people every time, everywhere ... which seems a bit silly to me from the get go.
Also I'm not sure where in the docs it suggests that the Byn shouldn't do greb work.
Setting up missions to collect things for virtual customers - are you going to pay your troopers with virtual sids for those jobs? Are you going to tell the stablemaster he's taking virtual sids to get your mounts out of the stables? And what about the cost of a new weapon, when your half-giant runner breaks another club over the scrab's head and it needs to be replaced?
These things aren't really useful in a Byn setting. In a GMH, where the house gets its income from things -other- than sending its hunters out, then yeah virtual orders works great. But when your employees rely on the sids the customer pays for each job, then collecting virtual sids from virtual customers won't work on coded employees who are expecting to get paid when they're done with the coded job.
I think you're missing the point a little of what I was talking about Lizzie.
When you and your Byn group go out to bash a few scrab and mine some 'sid for virtual contracts, you're skinning the scrab and mining the 'sid for real. So the coin you later make from selling it to the npc in the market place (and playing out the virtual side of things with emotes and what have you) ... that coin is real too.
You pay your Troopers and stable fees and whatever else with that real coin. The only part that needs to be virtual is the contract that provided the IC reasoning to go and do it in the first place.
But that was just one suggestion for how to keep from going bankrupt as a Byn Sarge, X-D provided some others, the staff were nice enough to point out how little you need to charge to actually make a decent run with 2-3 Bynners for a small time contract for another player character ... a lot of good suggestions were put out there. So I'm not sure what the problem still is.
I think one of you smarty pants should app a Byn Sarge and put all your theories to work! 8)
Some of them already have. See X-D's post.
Quote from: musashi on December 11, 2009, 09:22:09 AM
But that was just one suggestion for how to keep from going bankrupt as a Byn Sarge, X-D provided some others, the staff were nice enough to point out how little you need to charge to actually make a decent run with 2-3 Bynners for a small time contract for another player character ... a lot of good suggestions were put out there. So I'm not sure what the problem still is.
The staff member's example was off-center in a couple of respects. Firstly, it ignored the two shares that need to go to "higher places". Secondly, it ignored the Sergeant's right to a full two shares. The actual value should have been 340 - 80 = 260 coins net, divided by seven shares = a whopping 37 coins a share, not the 60 quoted.
Quote from: musashi on December 11, 2009, 09:02:41 AM
I feel like Salt Merchant was also assuming that you have to take all 9+ people every time, everywhere ... which seems a bit silly to me from the get go.
In the example I provided, dropping the Runners would mean an addition of all of eleven coins a share.
Quote from: musashi on December 11, 2009, 09:22:09 AM
When you and your Byn group go out to bash a few scrab and mine some 'sid for virtual contracts, you're skinning the scrab and mining the 'sid for real. So the coin you later make from selling it to the npc in the market place (and playing out the virtual side of things with emotes and what have you) ... that coin is real too.
In other words, subsidize the contracts with your own coin and build up extra risk doing it? This is a mercenary operation, not a charity. If a contract isn't going to be worth a reasonable profit, it makes no sense to do it.
Quote from: musashi on December 11, 2009, 09:02:41 AM
Also I'm not sure where in the docs it suggests that the Byn shouldn't do greb work.
It is in the web-page document for the rank-and-file Bynner.
This seems overly complicated. Pay issues can be dealt with in-character by enterprising people on both sides of a possible Byn contract.
If the contract isn't profitable enough for the Byn, renegotiate, cut corners, or decline the contract. I've seen a few Byn leaders manage to do jobs well and get bonuses, too.
If the contract is too expensive for the contracted employer, renegotiate, cut corners, or cancel the contract. I've seen a few contracted employers work out ways to pay the Byn in other ways.
For what it's worth, I agree with you for the most part, Salt, and always thought you did an exceptional job with the role. I don't think there is any way at all to come to an OOC consensus on any of this. Every single bit of this should be handled ICly. But I think the one thing that you've brought to attention though is the definite playability issues.
The Byn is a clan that relies extremely heavily on the PC population as a whole, in everything. You (usually) need PC contacts for jobs. You absolutely -need- PCs in the clan to do -anything-. And I don't just mean cannon fodder. You need characters that will last to become troopers, and even more importantly, sergeants when the leaders invariably kick the bucket/have-had-enough-already and leave. You keep PCs by rewarding them and having fun. This is almost as much OOC as IC, which can put a sergeant in an extremely uncomfortable position. Of -course- a leader as a player will want to involve everyone they can because that's how people have fun, and maybe they'll be more likely to stick around. It's very tough wanting to "do well" as a leader OOCly while keeping it ICly real. Actually, it's not -that- tough... you know what, it's a lot easier without threads like this, that's for sure.
As to what Shadow said about time and coordination. Yes. That was the biggest headache. An actual contract that took me under two hours RL to see through from beginning to end was a rarity. A 'Nak-Tuluk escort involves far more time than what the actual job entails, and can be difficult to coordinate effectively (especially those return trips, as many a lonely runner or trooper could attest). I said difficult: it's certainly not impossible. Of course, all of this is just based on my own experience. Many people have played Byn sergeants, and it was likely different for everyone. Those of you that haven't played a Byn sergeant, cool down on your certainty on some things. It can be an extremely difficult role, especially for people that reach it on their very first character (I've seen this a few times, and it even happened to me).
When I was playing a Sergeant in the Byn, I chose a subclass with armor crafting.
In our many trips out in the wilderness, we would often bring back several scrab shells and other such scraps that I would then work on turning into wristguards, breastplates, pauldrons, and whatever else could be made. Some of these were dumped into the Byn stores to be issued to new recruits, while the bulk of it was sold (by myself) to the surrounding the stores. I would then take the money generated by those sales and take the Byn out on virtual missions to be paid with real money.
I'd send an email to the clan Imm letting them know what I was going to be doing, in case they were going to be around and wanted to participate, add some background flavor, or comment. Mostly what I received was silence, which was completely fine with me because I was having a great time just interacting with the other personalities in the group.
In the end, it's about the stories, relationships, and adventures that you have in the game world. And I've found that there are very few limitations when you are willing to pursue creative solutions and work hard for results.
-LoD
I'd like to comment on the point of Byn not being grebbers.
While this is true, remember, Runners are not Byn yet.
When I'm playing a Byn sarge I encouraged the runners to be doing something...sure, keep watch. But, Resting the mounts on the salt flats. Drop a salt sack and a bag, all but 1 color salt goes in the sack, runners will get to split that, the other color goes into the bag, call it the byn/sarge/troopers cut.
Be creative....like Nyr said.
Also, maximize loot. Figure out which trooper/runner has the haggle skill for instance. Somebody with good haggle can change 200 coins of gear into 300++, It all adds up.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35138.0.html
Someone of us just got our chance.
I was looking at that and thinking if I should app. But I dunno if I have the time. If I did though, I'd jump on that like Michael Moore on a hamburger. Being a Byn Sergeant is very fun.
Someone get on this! You won't regret it (probably)!
Very tempting. Maybe in a few months. :)
I would- I've always wanted to play one, but my characters never die. (And, that line about being responsible for other peoples' perception of the game stresses me out).
On topic. It's been maybe six months since I've interacted with a bynner, so I may be off base here. I'd like to see a perception change. In my mind, Bynners as a social class are just the tiniest step above beggars. For the most part, the bynners will take anyone, even just to use as cannon fodder. Troopers=Runners who don't need to shovel shit. Sergeants and above should be the only ones who expect to make any coin from a contract at all. They're expected to perform on contracts because I've been feeding them all year. I'd definitely adopt a "Do what I say or GTFO" attitude. The troopers and runners already get as much food as they can eat. After the life you lived before I we met, that's not enough? If I'm a sergeant and I decide to take a cheap job, I might take all the money. If you're actually helping to make money, and you kiss my ass you'll probably get a bonus. I imagine my hypothetical Byn Sergeant might not be popular, but I'd persoanally love to play an underling if my boss wasn't all about democratically divvying up shares.
That and I don't like when people talk about how IC payment needs to correspond with OOC risk.
Your average sergeant or trooper is much better than a beggar, socially. They're a trade professional.
I know they are- I just kinda wish they were seen as even scrappier than they are now.
Quote from: Uberskaapie on December 11, 2009, 07:29:50 PM
Troopers=Runners who don't need to shovel shit. Sergeants and above should be the only ones who expect to make any coin from a contract at all. They're expected to perform on contracts because I've been feeding them all year. I'd definitely adopt a "Do what I say or GTFO" attitude. The troopers and runners already get as much food as they can eat. After the life you lived before I we met, that's not enough? If I'm a sergeant and I decide to take a cheap job, I might take all the money. If you're actually helping to make money, and you kiss my ass you'll probably get a bonus.
I'd wish you -alot- of luck with this. It would give whole meaning to the 'Army of One' concept...mainly because you would probably be pretty alone. How are your runners/troopers going to buy mounts? Repair armor? Buy weapons if they break? How about soap and armor brushes to spiffy themselves up to head down to the Gaj, hire a prostitute, and drink some ale? There is already a social class in the game that works for food and water alone while leaving the rest up to their masters - they are called
slaves. The only difference being a slave-owner provides all the extraneous necessities that their property requires, where a sergeant doesn't. Your average runner/trooper would either revolt against the 'screw you the sid is all mine' or simply up and leave due to being treated poorly.
Quote from: Cutthroat on December 11, 2009, 07:09:36 AM
I never played a Byn Sergeant. Here is how I'd think if I were, though.
On simple Tuluk-to-Allanak escort missions (or any other kind really) where you want to bring every Bynner you can, just have everyone walk. Voila, you solve several problems at once:
Sounds good, except for not solving the problem where your potential client tells you to shove it and they'll just ride themselves because they're not waiting for your slow walking ass to get ambushed on the way.
And yes - that happened to one of my Sergeants before, when I had just lost a bunch of my spare mounts to a (hilarious) OOC mishap.
Quote from: Praetorian on December 11, 2009, 08:08:07 PM
Quote from: Uberskaapie on December 11, 2009, 07:29:50 PM
Troopers=Runners who don't need to shovel shit. Sergeants and above should be the only ones who expect to make any coin from a contract at all. They're expected to perform on contracts because I've been feeding them all year. I'd definitely adopt a "Do what I say or GTFO" attitude. The troopers and runners already get as much food as they can eat. After the life you lived before I we met, that's not enough? If I'm a sergeant and I decide to take a cheap job, I might take all the money. If you're actually helping to make money, and you kiss my ass you'll probably get a bonus.
I'd wish you -alot- of luck with this. It would give whole meaning to the 'Army of One' concept...mainly because you would probably be pretty alone. How are your runners/troopers going to buy mounts? Repair armor? Buy weapons if they break? How about soap and armor brushes to spiffy themselves up to head down to the Gaj, hire a prostitute, and drink some ale? There is already a social class in the game that works for food and water alone while leaving the rest up to their masters - they are called slaves. The only difference being a slave-owner provides all the extraneous necessities that their property requires, where a sergeant doesn't. Your average runner/trooper would either revolt against the 'screw you the sid is all mine' or simply up and leave due to being treated poorly.
No - Let him. I wholeheartedly agree with character personalities like this because it actually adds some life to things - Right up until he's mutinied on one of those cheap missions of his. I notice too many people are "nice" on Arm. We need more cut-throat activities.
Quote from: X-D on December 11, 2009, 12:36:42 PM
I'd like to comment on the point of Byn not being grebbers.
While this is true, remember, Runners are not Byn yet.
I think this is an interesting concept, X-D.
Maybe it's because I was playing during the time when the Byn was still Krrx's baby that I kept to the rules so much. Krrx's rules (and he was pretty much a hardass) were my way or the highway type deal.
I'm sure it would benefit the Byn (and the rest of the playerbase, really) if some of the rules were relaxed or changed for the purpose of playability.. again, I don't really know anything about the current situation at all, if things have changed since I last played a Byn leader.
Or, as some people suggest, just have the character do it IC'ly and take the consequences that come. But Salt Merchant has a good point - if it's a matter of having to break the rules all the time, that means the rules no longer fit the IG realities and why would any organization maintain such rules if that's the case?
I think that -- for the most part -- the Byn rules nowadays are whatever the sergeants or lieutenant says, so long as the Byn is making a profit, and so long as it makes sense in the game world.
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on December 12, 2009, 03:27:59 AM
Quote from: X-D on December 11, 2009, 12:36:42 PM
I'd like to comment on the point of Byn not being grebbers.
While this is true, remember, Runners are not Byn yet.
I think this is an interesting concept, X-D.
Maybe it's because I was playing during the time when the Byn was still Krrx's baby that I kept to the rules so much. Krrx's rules (and he was pretty much a hardass) were my way or the highway type deal.
I'm sure it would benefit the Byn (and the rest of the playerbase, really) if some of the rules were relaxed or changed for the purpose of playability.. again, I don't really know anything about the current situation at all, if things have changed since I last played a Byn leader.
Or, as some people suggest, just have the character do it IC'ly and take the consequences that come. But Salt Merchant has a good point - if it's a matter of having to break the rules all the time, that means the rules no longer fit the IG realities and why would any organization maintain such rules if that's the case?
Sounds a bit like politics, neh?
But in all seriousness, I've always thought of even Runners as full-fledged Byn, just the lowest rung on the ladder if you will. Even if they leave after their year, they're still part of the whole.
As for mercenaries being poor, that's unrealistic, especially for one that has been named a vital part of Allanak, let alone is allowed to run around in aba's similar to that of the militia. No, they may not have silks like fancy pants Borsail, but they aren't running around in rags; they have armor and weapons to suit them. Maybe the Runners shouldn't get paid every job, but to not get paid at all? Really, would you in RL go to a group, pay good money, lay your life on the line, and not get shit for it? Me thinks not. The only viable solution is for more PC interaction and more importantly, PC psuedo necesitation. Ok, so maybe your hunters don't need help taking down a silt horror...but why not play it safe and send in the hired help? Even if it's a flat rate that you have to pay, you're still better off for it.
errmm... no, not sure how you managed to form those conceptions about runners, but they are by far the most common misconception.
Quote from: Gagula on December 12, 2009, 04:48:24 PM
Maybe the Runners shouldn't get paid every job, but to not get paid at all? Really, would you in RL go to a group, pay good money, lay your life on the line, and not get shit for it? Me thinks not.
I can't help but be reminded of basic training during military service ... ::)
Or the 4 years after that, really ...
Who said runners aren't getting anything? They get as much food as they can eat, a safe place to sleep, and training supervised by Sergeants ('real' soldiers). I think runners should learn that ICly, they're 100% replaceable part of the Byn. They're probably -expected- not to last the first year and even then, they might not stick around.
And I'd say if runners aren't poor, they should be. Their armor should be piecemeal or none at all, certainly they should be able to afford any matchy matchy bullsh. They've got cloaks, yeah but they're probably the cheapest cloak possible. Where do runners get coins for beer and hoes? Why is that the Byn's problem? They put food on your table. You want some extra spending bread- earn it. "Showing up" won't cut it.
I don't envy the sergeant job at all, but this all really makes me want to play a bynner from the ground up.
When you feel sorry for runners, remember that both the PC and the player voluntarily entered that position. 300 'sid is a lot of money; people wouldn't join the Byn haphazardly or out of desperation. The only difficulty here is when newbies are steered towards the Byn without knowing what they're getting into.
Runners pay 300 'sid, a year of freedom, and the promise to risk their lives when the sergeant asks them on contract.
Runners recieve unlimited food, water (yes, this has been changed recently), security and shelter, a year's worth of military training, the opportunity to buy cheap armor from the Byn's overstock, and the opportunity to become a trooper at the end of their year.
The biggest challenge for Byn sergeants is making sure that the opportunity to become a trooper is seen as valuable. Luckily, there is a strong player willingness to roleplay out virtual barriers to employment that do not actually exist IG. As long as people are willing to join the Byn for RP reasons even though Kurac, Tor, AoD, etc all offer better perks and would probably hire you out of a desire for more PC personnel, the Byn is safe (in the long term).
Frankly, the viability of the Byn lends a huge commendation to the player base as whole, both for those who join the Byn and for those that hire them.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 12, 2009, 07:15:36 PM
When you feel sorry for runners, remember that both the PC and the player voluntarily entered that position. 300 'sid is a lot of money; people wouldn't join the Byn haphazardly or out of desperation.
All of my desperate 'Rinthi, joined-the-Byn-for-unlimited-food-and-water-and-shelter characters would beg to disagree with the bolded....
To me, the key conceptual problem is Runners being taken out on dangerous contracts. Out of any gaggle of Runners, some will have only just begun training, many will be only half-equipped, and the rest not all that well trained either. Yet they're called upon to fight horrific monster X or terrible monster invasion Y.
It's like being hauled out of basic training to fight in a war now and then.
If Runners were to be kept under wraps, so to speak, until they've served their year, the Byn might be stronger as a whole. They'd still get to go out, on the Sergeant's whim, but for grebbing, hunting and maybe sedate escort contracts for the more senior Runners.
Quote from: Uberskaapie on December 11, 2009, 07:29:50 PM
It's been maybe six months since I've interacted with a bynner, so I may be off base here. I'd like to see a perception change. In my mind, Bynners as a social class are just the tiniest step above beggars.
I do think you're way off base here.
Bynners have their own, player-driven (much less stereotyped) culture that has been developed by many players over the course of years and years. The PCs are criminals, killers, soldiers, thugs, half-giants, halfbreeds, northerners, southerners, and elves all in the same space. It does not work because the Commander says so. It does not work because the sarge is a hardass. It works because
- a) there's a certain anti-hero/Black Company quality to the Byn.
- b) the Byn matches and reinforces the "might makes right" attitude of much of Allanak, which makes them higher status in some ways
- c) (never forget) players find it fun,
The suggestion that the Byn should be made more one-dimensionally "gritty" is an aesthetic decision; one divorced from the recognition that there are players behind the characters. It just comes off as "
you should role play this way" not "we should role-play this way."
To which I answer a resounding no.
Morrolan
Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 12, 2009, 10:18:35 PM
To me, the key conceptual problem is Runners being taken out on dangerous contracts. Out of any gaggle of Runners, some will have only just begun training, many will be only half-equipped, and the rest not all that well trained either. Yet they're called upon to fight horrific monster X or terrible monster invasion Y.
It's like being hauled out of basic training to fight in a war now and then.
If Runners were to be kept under wraps, so to speak, until they've served their year, the Byn might be stronger as a whole. They'd still get to go out, on the Sergeant's whim, but for grebbing, hunting and maybe sedate escort contracts for the more senior Runners.
I found out that if you took an experienced Runner out on a contract that entitled actual danger and thus fun RP, they were much more likely to stay in the Byn and become active Troopers or not to just disappear then say Amos Bynner who stays in the compound all the time and might be allowed to go out on a grebbing or escort mission. I think there has to be an acceptance of making the game fun for all, even if IC it makes little sense.
Re: Morrolan
You're right, and you've convinced me of everything you said. However, the main point I was trying (and failing) to make is that I wish the Allanaki "Might Makes Right" meritocracy you describe was extended to the divvying up of contract shares instead of trying to make contract "worth it" to the runners.
Quote from: Uberskaapie on December 13, 2009, 06:15:50 PM
Re: Morrolan
You're right, and you've convinced me of everything you said. However, the main point I was trying (and failing) to make is that I wish the Allanaki "Might Makes Right" meritocracy you describe was extended to the divvying up of contract shares instead of trying to make contract "worth it" to the runners.
Uh, it is.
I had a warrior who could give even the Sergeants a run for their money in less than 2 IC months as a Runner, and I always got paid well.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 12, 2009, 07:38:11 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 12, 2009, 07:15:36 PM
When you feel sorry for runners, remember that both the PC and the player voluntarily entered that position. 300 'sid is a lot of money; people wouldn't join the Byn haphazardly or out of desperation.
All of my desperate 'Rinthi, joined-the-Byn-for-unlimited-food-and-water-and-shelter characters would beg to disagree with the bolded....
There are some IC justifications I can see for 'rinthers who run southside to join the Byn, but desperation for food and water despite being able to afford the entry fee is not one of them.
I got tired of reading the same two pages over and over so I stopped reading.
If you are having a hard time finding contracts, go to another city.
When I had a Bynn Lieutenant(And I had about 15k in the bank that I made only from contracts), this is how I set up my pay scheme.
I would charge 100 coins per day, per head as a starting price. With a minimum of three heads.
I would allow a good barterer to knock the price down to 80 per head, per day.
So, if woodcutter Bob wanted a ride to Luir's, he'd say he wants four heads, for one day. Price set at 400.
He couldn't afford 400, so he dropped it to three heads.
As a Lieutenant, I would pay for the mounts. Three mounts for 60 coins. We would ride to Luir's, and ride back.
At the end of the day, we would finish with 240 coins.
One Lieutenant(three shares), one Trooper(one share), one good, productive Recruit(half share), and one or one and a half shares for the Company.
240/6= 40. I would receive 120 coins, a trooper would receive 40 coins, the recruit would receive 20 coins, and the Company would get 60.
If the recruit was a dumbass and liability the entire time, their share would go to the trooper.
Now, if I wanted to see how a trooper handles the missions, I would go as an observer and give the lead trooper two shares. I never told them I was only observing, but I have a feeling they understood.
You just need to figure out what you need to make the mission profitable for you and then figure out the rest of the price.
The Byn has never needed water. You don't get dehydrated in the cities anyways. And it's not hard filling up a barrel with some pisswater.
All it's ever really needed, was a place to keep mounts. Because tickets get lost, and a lot of runners can't be trusted with them. Funnily enough, the Byn had an outpost that did have a corral, which I always thought, for that fact alone, would make it a real nice place for a unit to stay. But people would inevitably get bored being up there alone, and eventually die riding between there and Allanak (and they'd have to stable in Allanak anyways).
Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 13, 2009, 07:59:40 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 12, 2009, 07:38:11 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 12, 2009, 07:15:36 PM
When you feel sorry for runners, remember that both the PC and the player voluntarily entered that position. 300 'sid is a lot of money; people wouldn't join the Byn haphazardly or out of desperation.
All of my desperate 'Rinthi, joined-the-Byn-for-unlimited-food-and-water-and-shelter characters would beg to disagree with the bolded....
There are some IC justifications I can see for 'rinthers who run southside to join the Byn, but desperation for food and water despite being able to afford the entry fee is not one of them.
Well, think of it this way.
A 'rinther could come upon three small and keep himself fed for a year.... Or he could join the Byn and keep himself fed for a lifetime. Hell, he's just as likely to get stabbed in 'Rinth as he is getting eaten on a contract. -shrug-