Byn fees

[Gimfalisette]

I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.

Every merchant and noble house does not have their own "soldiers." That's actually very far from the truth. There are certain noble houses in both cities which may not hire "soldiers" at all, from an OOC perspective, in order to keep PCs who want to be soldier-warrior-ly funneled toward the Byn, AoD, Tor, Lyksae, and Tuluki Legions. While Kurac does have a force of "soldiers," to my knowledge neither Kadius nor Salarr hire for that purpose.

So, there are still lots of open Houses which have good reason to hire the Byn, and who are not competing with the Byn over PCs. If they're not hiring the Byn, then there's some other reason for that.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Here's a common misconception: Runners are the Byn's 'recruits'. While true to some degree, Runners are primarily in the Byn for experience and training, not to work.

[Ampere]

Re Schools: Yes, it is a school for some. As outlined in the documentation.

Runners: You should only be paid at the sergeant's discretion, and that's for going above and beyond.  As a trooper I'd be pretty pissed off some piece of scrab bait was cutting into my share unless it was earned.

Contracts:  During my tenure as a Sergeant , I managed to snag a few decent gigs --- but I was always fighting for a permanent contract.  Something that shouldn't be too hard right now, given the recent catastrophe.

[5 day lifespan]

Suit 'em up in gith gear, they already smell like shit.

Mounts are trickier, though. I wish the Troopers could just ride the Runners.

I think if you take a runner on a contract, you should give them something - even if it's only 10 'sid. Otherwise, why would they even agree to risk life and limb on those crazy outings the Byn tend to take? That's a good way to cause mass mutiny and desertions.

I remember my first times in the Byn, us runners used to FIGHT over gith gear.  For some because it was armor, for others because the 10 sid we could get for that gear would mean we got SOMETHING for the run.  If I were a sergeant I'd point out the gith gear.  "Hurry up, Runner Amos, there's your share!"

Good times.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.

Every merchant and noble house does not have their own "soldiers." That's actually very far from the truth. There are certain noble houses in both cities which may not hire "soldiers" at all, from an OOC perspective, in order to keep PCs who want to be soldier-warrior-ly funneled toward the Byn, AoD, Tor, Lyksae, and Tuluki Legions. While Kurac does have a force of "soldiers," to my knowledge neither Kadius nor Salarr hire for that purpose.

So, there are still lots of open Houses which have good reason to hire the Byn, and who are not competing with the Byn over PCs. If they're not hiring the Byn, then there's some other reason for that.

He raises a point, though, that I could agree with, for the sake of playability and distribution and such. Perhaps Kadius and Salarr should not hire hunters at all, only crafters. Perhaps those clans should rely on the Byn for resource gathering, and maybe the Byn needs to redefine its jobs. That's a huge amount of play-time right there. Noble Houses with no militant background could be restricted to one PC Bodyguard per Noble, with a reserve of one.

Mercenaries are generally required to be loyal to their employer, because reputation matters. So the fact that someone is not a life-sworn employee really doesn't hold water in many cases. The Byn should be the place where you can say, 'I've been everywhere, and done everything'.

[Spoon]

Replace "soldiers" with "people who fight and do what soldiers do, even though they are not called soldiers". Which is in fact very close to the truth, Gimfalisette.

[Manhattan]

Replace "soldiers" with "people who fight and do what soldiers do, even though they are not called soldiers".

= All GMH/Noble house employees who can wield a blade.

OOC perspective: Byn sucks.

[staggerlee]

I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.

Every merchant and noble house does not have their own "soldiers." That's actually very far from the truth. There are certain noble houses in both cities which may not hire "soldiers" at all, from an OOC perspective, in order to keep PCs who want to be soldier-warrior-ly funneled toward the Byn, AoD, Tor, Lyksae, and Tuluki Legions. While Kurac does have a force of "soldiers," to my knowledge neither Kadius nor Salarr hire for that purpose.

So, there are still lots of open Houses which have good reason to hire the Byn, and who are not competing with the Byn over PCs. If they're not hiring the Byn, then there's some other reason for that.

He raises a point, though, that I could agree with, for the sake of playability and distribution and such. Perhaps Kadius and Salarr should not hire hunters at all, only crafters. Perhaps those clans should rely on the Byn for resource gathering, and maybe the Byn needs to redefine its jobs. That's a huge amount of play-time right there. Noble Houses with no militant background could be restricted to one PC Bodyguard per Noble, with a reserve of one.

Mercenaries are generally required to be loyal to their employer, because reputation matters. So the fact that someone is not a life-sworn employee really doesn't hold water in many cases. The Byn should be the place where you can say, 'I've been everywhere, and done everything'.

This sounds largely like an ic issue. Perhaps an enterprising Byn leader should attempt to convince them to outsource all of their combat needs to the Byn.

The ooc issue I see is that there is no way to codedly differentiate between a one year byn graduate, a one year Tor academy graduate, and a hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year.

[Akoto]

The impact of something like that would be very far-reaching. Merchant houses, which already tend to charge high prices for their goods, would have to jack fees up even more to compensate for paying the Byn. It would put their services out of reach for an even larger majority of players.

GMH hunters are not mercenaries or soldiers. They may be able to fight, but that's not their purpose. They do, however, serve a critical role in their clans.

[Dahomey]

If the payment for more long term requests were more reasonable with the way the game economy is set up, I think it would be more possible, but as it is, hiring a Byn unit of let's say, five, costs a whole month's salary for most full-time hunters, and that's for a day IG... to keep that up long time would drain all of the coins in a Houses bank, which I find really impossible.

[Gimfalisette]

He raises a point, though, that I could agree with, for the sake of playability and distribution and such. Perhaps Kadius and Salarr should not hire hunters at all, only crafters. Perhaps those clans should rely on the Byn for resource gathering, and maybe the Byn needs to redefine its jobs. That's a huge amount of play-time right there. Noble Houses with no militant background could be restricted to one PC Bodyguard per Noble, with a reserve of one.

Forbidding GMHs from hiring hunters is a really terrible idea, because there are lots of players who want to play hunters and who enjoy the relative freedom that playing within Kadius or Salarr gives them. Those players, for those concepts, would not join the Byn; and since Kadius and Salarr don't really need 99% of what PC hunter/grebbers bring in, there wouldn't be any incentive for the GMHs to hire the Byn except on the rare occasions they already do.

Also, noble houses without militant backgrounds are already restricted in the way you suggest; they don't hire guards unless there is a defined need for a PC guard. I know this, having played in some of them; when I played my Dasari noble I was not allowed to hire PC guards, because Dasari is not a militant clan. The same is true for other non-militant noble house clans I've played in. Yes, sometimes there are miscommunications between staff and PC leaders and for some reason a non-militant clan appears to have "soldier" types, but it is an aberration and eventually gets corrected.

The best solutions to the "issues" that have been presented with the Byn getting contracts or runners are not going to be solutions that attempt to strongarm the playerbase into doing something. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, after all.

[Rhyden]

If travel is made more dangerous, I would like to see more encouragement given to Salarr, Kurac, Kadius, and the gypsies to take on paying passengers; and more encouragement to the Byn to charge reasonable fees for escort.

What would people consider to be a reasonable fee?

In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.

Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?

I don't think this is really a problem as much as it is the consequences of recent IC economy and environment. If the Byn Sarge charges too much, they'll likely lose business. If they charge too little, they'll likely lose mercenaries.

To address the op, whatever the Byn Sergeant's deal is with their contractor is reasonable. Is 500 from one city to the other too much? It may have been at some point in the past, but presently, I think that's a very reasonable price. Like Fathi said, Byn Sergeants should be haggling depending on number of people being escorted, wagons, cargo, etc.

As for risking your character's life for 30 coins, that's the beauty of the Byn. You have to fight tooth and nail for every sid earned, in comparison to the GMHs where you are paid constant stipend whether you work or not.

[Praetorian]

I think people are missing a key point - the Byn guards are a disposable investment.  Merchant houses/nobles train, outfit, supply food and water, provide lodging, and pay their employees on a regular basis.  For most there are even terms of service and loyalty/trust that is gained with their employees over time.  Merchant houses especially are more likely to look at a situation such as a wagon escort and think to themselves, 'I have spent thousands of sid on each of my men over the past couple years, they are all trustworthy and well trained.  If even one of those men fall to an unexpected gith attack, I will lose thousands of sid worth of investment in the House.'

Solution?  They hire the Byn, because for comparably low cost (lets say 500 sid) they know that they can keep their ongoing investments safe in the wagon while several mercenaries that they know are unlikely to turn tail and run due to their reputation will stand and fight, and even -die- to protect them...either through victory or buying the House time to escape.

This is basically insurance.  The Byn is an insurance policy, and the fee paid is the premium on the insurance policy.  It buys the Houses and independents security that they might not need for a low rate compared to what is at risk and really pays off dividends IF the crap hits the fan.  On the other side of the coin the Byn relies on those premiums paid under the assumption that most of the time their men are prepared enough that crap WONT hit the fan but of course it always eventually does.  Its the RL equivalent of the Byn being an insurance underwriter and all the clients being policy holders.

So - long story short, 500 sid might be expensive but taken in the context of how much of your own investment (both virtual and PC) is being protected is it really so bad?  It might be 10 wagon escorts at 500 a pop before something happens, but when it -does- happen isn't the value of your own life, your wagon, your own guards, and your own merchandise worth more than the 5000 sid you have spent up to that point?

Everyone complains about the Byn insurance premiums, but nobody complains when disaster hits and that policy pays off.

[janeshephard]

If a fix is not to lower stabling costs maybe a fix is for Byn to negotiate for lower stabling costs.

I'm just saying, it seems once you take stabling costs out of the equation the price starts to get lower.

[staggerlee]

If a fix is not to lower stabling costs maybe a fix is for Byn to negotiate for lower stabling costs.

I'm just saying, it seems once you take stabling costs out of the equation the price starts to get lower.

Or build their own stable.
Another ic solution to an ic problem.

[Zoltan]

If a fix is not to lower stabling costs maybe a fix is for Byn to negotiate for lower stabling costs.

I'm just saying, it seems once you take stabling costs out of the equation the price starts to get lower.

Or build their own stable.
Another ic solution to an ic problem.

It's not very likely to happen, not at all.

[Xeran Van Houten]

T'zai Byn:
500 'sid could save you your live or more!

heh... gieko commercials are funny...
anyway... You can't really negociate stable fees with city stables.
And as people said, the Byn cannot build a stable for ic reasons.

The only thing that will affect price is current world conditions and what the Sergeant and the client haggle about - just like any other deal.

[janeshephard]

The consensus from the imms is that stabling costs are in-line with what they should cost?

This isn't a rhetorical question. I've just not see a discussion on it.

[Gimfalisette]

Everyone's so caught up in the discussion about whether Houses can afford to hire the Byn; generally speaking, of course Houses can afford to hire the Byn. What the OP quoted me as saying, to start this thread off, was not a reference to whether the Houses can hire the Byn; it was my concern that travel would become both too dangerous and too expensive for independent types. For example, once upon a time I played a Tuluki bard or two who traveled the world; Tuluki bards are not usually rich and aren't usually clanned into a clan that will take them anywhere. In the current environment, a Tuluki bard who wants to travel will have a really hard time doing so. There are also indie merchants wandering around who undoubtedly just want to play the traveling salesman gig, but especially starting out, now, this is going to be really hard for them.

What I don't want to see is the world becoming much more insular, navel-gazing, un-fluid, or prohibitive to certain character concepts.

Ideally, someone would just be running a semi-safe regular "bus" service with stops in the cities so that these nitty-gritty characters can still travel. But since we don't have that coded like it's planned to be in 2.ARM, if anything like that happens in the current game it's got to be run by PCs.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Well, just from a strategic view, if a convoy becomes "regular" it stops being "safe"...

[Gimfalisette]

Well, just from a strategic view, if a convoy becomes "regular" it stops being "safe"...

I don't mean regular as in scheduled. I mean regular as in happening frequently. A Byn Sergeant could conceivably develop a group of contacts, 5 to 10 indies who want to travel between cities, and tell all of them that next week is the time, get your ass to the stables at whenever. Splitting a fee of 500 between 3 to 5 indie PCs makes the fee pretty reasonable for anyone.

[Rhyden]

Well, just from a strategic view, if a convoy becomes "regular" it stops being "safe"...

I don't mean regular as in scheduled. I mean regular as in happening frequently. A Byn Sergeant could conceivably develop a group of contacts, 5 to 10 indies who want to travel between cities, and tell all of them that next week is the time, get your ass to the stables at whenever. Splitting a fee of 500 between 3 to 5 indie PCs makes the fee pretty reasonable for anyone.

As much as I'd like to see this happen, Gimf, and believe me I've tried, it's about as likely as Byn getting their own stable. Serious kudos to anyone who can pull off a regular caravan though, Byn or no.

[Gimfalisette]

What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?

[Vessol]

As a Sergeant I got several "regular" contracts that usually involved either escorting indie PCs, GMH, and patrolling with a Templar. These usually worked well for a few weeks but usually playtimes would scatter, people would disappear, or some other random force would make this not last that long. I again contend that for mercenaries, the best way to solve the issues with mundane jobs is to "outsource" it to NPCs and VNPCs, namely scripted jobs. Afterall, we do live in a world inhabited by more then just PCs, think about it. Merchants and GMHs already get a good amount of their money from VNPC scripts(ie: buying goods from stores, or at least I believe its from that) or just simply selling goods to NPCs whom have coin. Why would a NPC who runs regular caravan services or guard duties, etc, be any different? I'm aware that such a thing could throw out potential RP between clans, but lets face it, most escorts I did amounted to "n n n e e e n e n w" throw out various emotes, take a breather, and usually that was it. Most of my Bynners would usually be semi-afk as the job is so mundane.

It takes a burden off many other various clans to hire the Byn to "entertain" the players, "throw a bone to" is a more better term(many employers I realized behind the screen often felt bad and wanted to provide some fun for the Byn), and allow them to save 'sid they would spend rustling up a PC escort and rather save it to perhaps do some real PC pushing and get something more exciting(and better paying) going.

Of course there is no silver bullet to this issue, but I think that diversifying employment opportunities is a primary goal.

What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?

A barrier for a stable? From my own knowledge, I don't believe it would be effected at all, I highly doubt there is anything PCs could do to make a Byn stable. But really, I never found issue with stabling fee's as I handled them as operating costs instead of usually making Bynners pay for em. I would record income vs expense where income would include Byn joining fee's, often we made more then enough profit to cover expenses. I made these as IC OOC reports to the imms(emails). The imms that ran the clan seemed to be fine with that.

[Rhyden]

What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?

The biggest barrier, imo, is having a leader stay alive long enough to make their regular caravan a reality (something I'm personally terrible for ).

Other barriers would include:
- Gathering enough paying travellers
- Gathering enough trained guards for mobile transport
- Raiders (desert elves and gith come to mind)
- Arranging ooc time for transportation (raiders are inevitably going to catch on to these, see above)
- Getting a wagon for safer transport
- As you said Gimf, yes, current game environment is definitely going to have some affect

If you can break down these barriers to secure a regular caravan, good on you. Currently, with said barriers and current game environment, I believe securing a regular successful caravan transport is next to impossible. It may be easier if you are in a GMH clan that has access to a working wagon, but again, you still have to go through these barrier steps.

That being said, I would love it if someone proved me wrong and created a successful caravan system.