Byn fees

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My understanding is the bulk of the Byn would be hired out on more permanent basis, guarding things/people.

What if independent merchant could either hire 1) several Bynners for a one way trip from Nak to Tuluk for 500 coins or 2) Hire 1 specifc Trooper for 500 coins for 1/2 IG month and they could go wherever...

This, by all means. Mercenaries are generally employed temporary long-term. In Armageddon, or, in the Byn, they are not. I disagree with this, and I think it should be changed. If this is staff policy, then it needs to be changed, and if it is simply perception, then it needs to be changed. Mercenaries should be found everywhere, doing all sorts of combative jobs.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Let's see...for a basic escort job, I'll be generous and say that the profit for a Trooper should be somewhere around 60 'sid. Escorts are easy pie.

So that means, assuming three troopers and a Sergeant (because you don't need more for your independent merchant who's just riding all by his lonesome to one of the cities):

                    60 x 4 = 240
20 x 4 for unstabling = 80
    Sarge's extra pay = 20
---------------------------------
                                 340 'sid, which methinks is a pretty decent cost for protection from the gith, elves, rogue mages, bandits, and wildlife who might just get a hankerin' for some nice chewie indie with cream filling and a side of a bagfull o' goods.

Runners don't get paid, because they're scum.

Parting thought: both as a Byn Sergeant and as a possible purveyor of contracts, feel free to offer non-monetary remuneration for the T'zai Byn's services.

-on second thought, I'm just going to self-edit that out - but what the Sergeant in the above example is doing is subsidizing the Troopers' pay out of their own pay.  on two separate levels.  340 is also only the PC's share, so that doesn't reflect the cost to the 'client'-

Now, if the Sergeant decides to pay for stabling fees/water from the original contract price, this is the most efficient for pay distribution to the PC's.  Some Sergeants (including myself) have occasionally paid these directly out of their own pay because of how poor their Troopers were.  Sergeants will also routinely pay for Runners' stabling fees if they have spare mounts for them to use and they can ride - if not, they are walking and slow the entire group down.  Sergeants that don't pay for these costs at all pass them onto the other PC's, which is normally how it should work, from what I remember (Troopers are expected to pay for their own costs, including for things like weapons, armour and maintenance from their own regular pay).

So if the job pays enough, everything works as it should.  When I was playing a Sergeant, there wasn't really a lack of people asking to hire the Byn.  That wasn't the problem.  The problem is that I couldn't accept the job, or the potential client would just balk and walk away at the requested fee.  The Byn can't regularly take such jobs that pay enough, because there aren't enough potential PC's that want to hire the Byn that can pay enough.  And anyone that can pay enough, generally doesn't need to hire the Byn.

[hyzhenhok]

I wish troopers had more flexibility and trust. According to the docs they spend more time running contracts than training; according to IG experience, they're basically runners that get paid better (and don't have to do chores!). All IC contracts I've seen are led by sergeants are better. The pipe dream is where the sergeant gets a job, assigns it to some troopers and the troopers carry out the job and pay the company's share upon finishing it.

This is currently impossible because there are not enough PC troopers, and because troopers have the same limitations set on them as runners (don't go leave the city or enter dangerous situations without being led by a sergeant). Compare this to Kuraci Mercenaries (who have spent a year as a recruit), who typically have leeway to go on patrol as they please. These issues are probably related: why stay in the Byn after your training year is up if you're still sitting in the city waiting on the sergeant to take you on contract? Even if the rule was simply loosened to "don't leave the city unless on contract, it would be easier to stomach keeping a PC in the Byn as a trooper.

Most would-be hirers would probably be happy to pay a cheaper fee and hire two or three troopers. As it stands, it's almost impossible to hire Byn mercenaries without at least hiring the sergeant, and all of the runners he can bring to fill the void of the solid troopers he lacks.

[X-D]

Actually, according to the docs, When a trooper is not on contract or leave he/she should be training, Which means a majority of the time.

Also, Speaking as a player who runs his units with interunit ranks.

EI, first trooper or even corporal. Second trooper, rank and file, First runner then runner scum.

I can say that, Unless you have some very capable troopers (who would be sarges if they wanted or there was room) Letting troopers take contracts usually ends in you having no unit shortly after and having to spend a ton of time in the Gaj recruiting...again.

That being said.

If you do happen to have a capable unit...well, I never had problems from the higher ups for letting my troopers make short escort runs or long term bodyguard contracts in the city.

And thats another thing, In all my times in the Byn we often had long term contracts. Bodyguard, guarding the Tor academy after it got bombed and more, they do happen, could happen more often maybe.

[Uberskaapie]

Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?

You're asking the wrong question. Of course nobody wants to risk their character for 30 coins, but your character might jump at the opportunity- given the socio-economic background of most byn mercenaries. Furthermore- I think most Byn members shouldn't even expect to be paid -at all-. Regardless of what their bosses make them do. I don't think players or characters should expect to get rich in the Byn.

[Dahomey]

It's definitely possible to make a profit in the byn. Otherwise we wouldn't have a player-lead Byn to begin with.

There's also the looting that's being discounted. Should the group meet a bad animal or a raider and do what they are paid for, there's also the loot that can be factored into pay.

There's also other creative ways to get coin, without necessarily having to go on a contract.

However, I will admit, it can be pretty tough to get by, which I think is what a mercenary life should be. There'll be high times, where you're practically swimming in coins, and low times when you have to scrape by with whatever.

[Salt Merchant]

You have to keep in mind that it's not only sergeants and troopers that receive shares of a contract. Two shares go to "higher places".

Also, as a sergeant, I wouldn't limit the escort to four Bynners if more want to go and cheat the others of a chance to get some action and time outside the city/compound. As a result, quite frequently there were seven to nine Bynners in the escort (albeit this was during a populous time in the clan).

[AmandaGreathouse]

Despite playing numerous 'successful' merchant pcs, I've only had the funds to hire the byn 1 time.

About 10 people turned out for 300 sid... and my pc felt so bad at how much stabling cost, she more than made up for it in extra coin that she handed over when she paid the guy. 100 sid to split 10 ways after stabling costs? Eep.

[Gunnerblaster]

Yeah - Situations where someone is paying 300 small, don't be retarded and get 5-10 Bynners on the contract. Keep it small to 2-3. Yeah, I know "Oh but my PC wants to have fun, too!" bla bla bla.

Also, be smart about who you send on a mission - Not everyone needs to go and not your best everytime. Picking who should go on body-guard contracts should go in this order:
Strongest > Stronger > Strong > Average > Below Average > Incompetent.

Balance the weak with the strong if your one of those leaders who likes getting everyone involved.

[Halcyon]

There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else.  Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.

[Salt Merchant]

There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else.  Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.

The sad fact is that the side jobs are usually far more lucrative than the actual escorts.

It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.

[IntuitiveApathy]

There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else.  Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.

The sad fact is that the side jobs are usually far more lucrative than the actual escorts.

It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.

I believe this is, if not expressly forbidden, then it's at least implicitly discouraged.  I remember an imm-animated LT telling (berating) one of my characters that the Byn aren't labourers, they're mercenaries, something apart from the sweaty masses who earn their coin by their sword.

My last Trooper did this anyway, and subsequently became wealthier by multiples than both of my Sergeants (who did not) combined.

[jstorrie]

It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.

Because if you try to hire Gage Gritshaw to go greb for you, he pulls out eighteen knives and then bites your eyes out.

[Zoltan]

There is also nothing that says a Sergeant can't combine an escort contract with something else.  Lumber, hunting for specific goods, hauling goods to a better market, doubled up escorts with other people scheduled for the same time... its not that hard.

The sad fact is that the side jobs are usually far more lucrative than the actual escorts.

It makes you wonder why the Byn offer mercenary services at all when they'd be greatly effective as a grebbing organization. More coin, less risk.

But grebbing is boooooring sometimes.  Still, it's coin...

One thing that always deterred me from doing the "combo packages" was the fact that I couldn't stand extended trips. And by extended, I mean like "three hours longer than I expected to be playing," and then I wouldn't be able to log out until things were finished and by then I'd be a grumpy little baby. Those types of deals Halcyon mentioned -are- extremely effective; I'd never deny that.

I think what it really comes down to is that those who are playing the sergeants at the time are going to do what they want, and they should. That's the coolest part of the role. One of the coolest parts, anyway.

[Salt Merchant]

I believe this is, if not expressly forbidden, then it's at least implicitly discouraged.  I remember an imm-animated LT telling (berating) one of my characters that the Byn aren't labourers, they're mercenaries, something apart from the sweaty masses who earn their coin by their sword.

It is discouraged, but it happens out of sheer need anyhow, which is an indication that the Byn really aren't profiting much from their escorts as it is.

Plus, new Runners are so often ill-equipped and mountless that they're practically helpless. From the standpoint of unit effectiveness alone, it's a good idea to take them out on a few grebbing expeditions so they can buy a mount and some armor.

[jstorrie]

Suit 'em up in gith gear, they already smell like shit.

Mounts are trickier, though. I wish the Troopers could just ride the Runners.

[Salt Merchant]

So, in answer to all of these points, maybe:

1. Only Troopers and above should go on contracts. This policy would have a few benefits:
a) Everyone going would have a year's worth of training and be fairly effective. And reliable too, since they lasted their year.
b) No issues of Runners doing the bulk of the work and not getting paid.
c) No issues of half-equipped Runners being yanked out on killer contracts before they've learned to defend themselves somewhat.
d) Smaller group sizes mean lower fees are more practical.
e) More Runners would (in principle) last to being Troopers.

2. Only Runners are allowed (or even taken out) to greb.
a) Who cares, they're Runner scum, not really a part of the Byn yet.
b) Gives them the opportunity to buy much-needed armor and mounts.
c) Troopers can look down on them all the more.
d) They'd still get to leave the city on non-contract grebbing expeditions or hunts.

[Vessol]

In my experience playing a Byn Sergeant is probably one of the most intensive roles in the game. It's a mixture of almost desperately trying to find a contract that isn't escorting/grebbing (for gickers), as well as trying to maintain what really is a low-income clan. It's also a balancing act between keeping Runners playing through the full year(or is it a month? when i was a Sergeant it was shortened to a IG month based on Sergeants discretion), and I'll tell you one thing, sparring/eating stew/bar idling at the Gaj can grow tiring to any poor scrub. I found that taking Runners out on various contracts was a very good way to establish trust/knowledge of skill/and overall create a relationship between the clan/sergeant and that character. I'd think that you'd see very less Troopers if Runners were not brought on contracts.

On to contracts, it's almost a full time job scheduling jobs both with the client and the players. Making sure you have enough players that can make it, making sure you can make it, making perpetration. Usually the actual reward is hopefully some fun cannon-fodder RP. The only rich Bynner I knew did not make it from contracts.

The main problem really is IG economics, definitely inflated prices (imo atleast) as well as clan leaders usually having little actual coin compared to indy "twinks". I'm really not sure how to fix it. I'm hoping in 2.Arm that a lot of npc 'mundane' jobs are added for mercenaries. Automated stuff. Whether it be guarding a wagon on the road. Guarding a certain area during a NPC's merchant meeting, etc. That IMO is the best way to make the life of a mercenary a lot more funner, automated NPC contracts. And inbetween those PCs can hire them for the real fun cannon-fodder dying stuff.

Another thing I guess I'll bring up that was a problem, in my time at least. Was not having a pyramid structure to the clan. There was often 2-4 PC Sergeants, but rarely is there a PC Lieutenant. I found this at times very difficult to deal with as the 'pyramid' was pretty much without its PC 'capstone'. Any dealings with higher authority had to be regulated with the Imms whom were often quite busy with many other things and it would often take a week or so to get any response, which often made my job quite a bit harder. I noticed that there is a PC Lieutenant in the Byn now (or was? dunno about after HRPT), I think this is CRUCIAL for the Byn, absolutely critical. If a PC Lieutenant dies/stores/retires the Imms should either promote a long standing PC Sergeant or make an announcement for the role and RP them being transfered from another war band.

[Spoon]

I agree with Vessol, there should always be a Byn Lieutenant. Either promoted IG, or as a sponsored role (every other city clan has them).

I've played a couple of Byn Sergeants in the past and I have always thought that merchant and noble houses should have far less PC muscle. The fact every merchant and noble house has their own soldiers does make the Byn a little pointless in the IG economy.

[Rhyden]

Everything depends on the Sergeant. Having played one or two, I can tell you that there are hundreds of interesting jobs to be done for reasonable amounts of sid. Yes, Runners should be paid next to nothing, and any half-witted Sergeant will find a way around the expensive stabling fees. The great thing about the Byn is the EXTREME turn over rate. Crappy sarge? They'll likely be dead in a month or so. And if not, there's always mutiny.

My only beef with the Byn is the incredible runner turn over rate. Hilariously, at least half the runners that pay their dues will die before reaching their Trooper phase, deserting, or leaving unceremoniously. My only plead to players is that if you're going to go out and get yourselves killed or whatever, don't join the Byn and save your local Sarge some time. Then again, those 300 fees add up after a while (and are very useful for unstabling mounts, if you know what I mean).

[Krath]

There is a reason Runners are not supposed to be paid. Maybe Sergeants who make a habit of paying Runners should experience mutiny from pissed off Troopers who can't earn any decent coin on contracts.

QFT

[chuci]

I think if you take a runner on a contract, you should give them something - even if it's only 10 'sid. Otherwise, why would they even agree to risk life and limb on those crazy outings the Byn tend to take? That's a good way to cause mass mutiny and desertions.

(Which I guess could be interesting.)

I like Salt Merchant's ideas.

[Spoon]

Here's a common misconception: Runners are the Byn's 'recruits'. While true to some degree, Runners are primarily in the Byn for experience and training, not to work. If they go on contract, they are more along for the ride and the experience than actually doing the work. This is why you pay to join the Byn, they are doing you a service, not the other way around.

This made more sense when the militia, noble and merchant houses sent more prospective recruits to the Byn for training. This doesn't seem to happen as much anymore. Also, the imbalance of Runners:Troopers, (which may be the fault of Rhyden's 'Runners deserting or getting themselves killed' phenomenon, or maybe a year is too long to wait?) means Runners end up making up the bulk of any contract.

[Dahomey]

Maybe runners should try and find a sponsor before (or even after) joining? You would have to be pretty convincing though to have someone dish out 300 and anything else which your newb runner would need during the time, but still...worth a try for those willing.

[Marauder Moe]

Sorry but... the T'zai Byn is not a school.  The practice of clans routinely sponsoring runners to join the Byn and then quit after their first year was stamped out a good while ago.  Training future clan guards is not profitable for the Byn, and nor should it be desirable for anyone else.  Don't forget that the Byn have a stink that is not easy to wash off.  They're dirty, foul-mouthed, often undisciplined, and often drunk.  These are not good qualities in a noble/merchant house guard.