Byn fees

[Salt Merchant]

If travel is made more dangerous, I would like to see more encouragement given to Salarr, Kurac, Kadius, and the gypsies to take on paying passengers; and more encouragement to the Byn to charge reasonable fees for escort.

What would people consider to be a reasonable fee?

In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.

Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?

[janeshephard]

If travel is made more dangerous, I would like to see more encouragement given to Salarr, Kurac, Kadius, and the gypsies to take on paying passengers; and more encouragement to the Byn to charge reasonable fees for escort.

What would people consider to be a reasonable fee?

In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.

Would you be willing to risk your character's life for, say, 30 coins?

Lower the cost of stabling and everything begins to cost less. No really If you stable some twenty times you've paid as much for the mount itself.

[Wasteland Raider]

You also don't have to feed and water your creature, which, in some cases, can amount to a huge draw of virtual food/water. Inix in particular eat and eat and eat.

[Oleupata]

In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.

This could be taken care of IG, not that it affects the discussion in principle.

Just sayin'. It simply hasn't been yet.

[Fathi]

When I was playing my Byn sergeant, contract fees depended on a number of things, such as:

• Whether or not we'd be escorting a wagon or a mounted rider.
• How many mounts and people were going to be escorted.
• Whether or not the party being escorted had any of their own security.
• The escort's clan affiliation and ability to pay with things other than coins.
• How much prior notice we were given on the contract.

I don't recall ever charging as much as 500 coins to escort a single person and shares per Bynner were usually around 50-60 'sid.

But I think each sarge does it differently. In my eyes, risking my PC's life for 60 coins was perfectly in line with how I thought the clan should be.

[tortall]

I think the main problem is that the trip is USUALLY one way. Since there's really only PC Bynners(thus, usable ones) in the south, that means they often have to make the same trip 2-3 times. That's 2-3 stabling fees. That's 40+ coins each person, there. Most Byn Sarges require at least 3-5 people. That's already 250 coins or so, without actually MAKING any money. Charge 500, and each person doesn't even get 50 coins, esp if the Sarge keeps his larger portion.


Granted, that's a moot point right now. I doubt ANYONE will be wanting to travel.


Edited to add: I've never played a Byn Sarge, though my indep fighting types often offered to go along on trips with GMH people. Usually got paid some 250-500 coins one way.

[Salmon]

It'd be nice if the Byn had their own stables like other clans.

[Twilight]

I think the main problem is that the PC portion of the Byn relies on discreet contracts.

My understanding is the bulk of the Byn would be hired out on more permanent basis, guarding things/people.

What if independent merchant could either hire 1) several Bynners for a one way trip from Nak to Tuluk for 500 coins or 2) Hire 1 specifc Trooper for 500 coins for 1/2 IG month and they could go wherever...

[Gimfalisette]

I think "reasonable fees" should probably be based on the actual difficulty of the job and/or the ability of the client to pay. Moving an argosy or wagon from one city to the next should be a harder, bigger job because the thing moves slower and is thus more vulnerable to ambush. And guess what, the organizations that own those behemoths are able to pay higher fees.

But you're never going to convince newb merchant-guy to pay for a Byn escort when he's just getting going. 500 coins is way too much for him. So maybe the Byn shouldn't send a whole unit out with the guy, but just one or two troopers.

Or maybe the Byn should arrange for the extras to take the next Kadian/Salarrgosy/gypsy caravan, and get a kickback on the 100 'sid the newb merchant pays to the wagoneer, plus get hired to ride escort. So they make some extra coins on the deal, and a newb merchant doesn't die before amassing the riches to hire the Byn for real jobs in the future.

Maybe some player in the Byn needs to become inspired about getting a smallish wagon to use as a safer means of transporting Amos, Malik, and Talia the 'sid-miners to their weekend of debauchery in Luir's. (Hell, if LoD can make the northern compound happen, surely a wagon is a reachable goal for the Byn.)

Certainly the Byn should be making a "profit," but the profit doesn't necessarily have to be the same on every job (I would think, I dunno, I've never played a Byn Sarge). Part of the risk to the Byn of not making escort affordable is that Bynners get a lot less time adventuring, and that makes the Byn a less attractive clan to those who want adventuring, and fewer troopers means less ability to take contracts -> vicious cycle.

So yeah, what I'm saying is, assuming the Sergeants have the freedom to do so, I think the Byn should tune pricing and general strategies to the current environment so that travel can still happen, contracts still happen, everyone is happy, etc.

This seems like a great opportunity for player-driven creativity to me, with tons of possibilities.

[Gimfalisette]

It'd be nice if the Byn had their own stables like other clans.

Maybe someone just needs to drive this. I don't know, I'm not on staff, but I'm just sayin'...player-driven.

[IntuitiveApathy]

In the past, potential clients have gotten upset at the prospect of paying 500 coins for escort from one city to the other. I don't think that they realize how little coin it amounts to, after stable fees are paid and divisions are made, per Bynner.

This could be taken care of IG, not that it affects the discussion in principle.

Just sayin'. It simply hasn't been yet.

Having played a Byn Sergeant a few years back, again more recently, and played in the Byn with another non-leader more recently than that, I feel safe in saying that this situation hasn't changed at all.  The reason it hasn't changed is because of IG economics.

If an escort were run for 500 'sid, the standard Byn breakdown for a group of a Sergeant, a Trooper and two Runners results in the Trooper, who is supposed to be taking regular contracts as their livelihood, receiving about 50 coins or so, depending on whether the Runners are paid.  That's before paying for stable fees, which cost 20 coins for a stabling.  So the Trooper is left with 30 coins.  Now if the Sergeant is resourceful or stupid or nice, they might pay for water - if not, the Trooper must buy their own, and that could very well put the Trooper into the red.  So for the Byn, it doesn't actually make sense to do an escort, even a relatively short one, for this sort of pay.

What the above essentially means is that anything 500 coins and under is out pretty much completely, unless it's some for an in-city, one-day job.  But who needs to hire the Byn in the city?  They have the protection of the militia and the law already.  If they don't, they won't be hiring the Byn (and the Byn probably wouldn't work for them).

So this means for it to make IG economic sense for the Byn to take on a job, it must be 500+ coins.  Realistically speaking, something in the neighbourhood of 750-1000 is doable.

Now, the flipside: who can afford to pay 750-1000 coins to hire the Byn?  Generally for your average PC or NPC, this is unrealistic.  Even for a wealthy indy (merchant?), that's not pocket change.  And in order for them to want to hire the escort, they must either be desperate to move, or make enough as a result of the trip themselves to turn an actual profit.  What about other non-independents, you ask?  Well, clanned people.. they have their clan.  If the clan itself doesn't already have a wagon and professional guards, they would at least have other clannies to travel with, negating the entire purpose of the Byn escort in the first place.

So, who's left?  From what I found, generally the only times the Byn is hired is by some NPC organization for some event.  This is generally for extra muscle/cannonfodder purposes.  Once in a while, it's for an escort, but it's for some major RPT-style trip, where the NPC organization is able to foot the bill.

I found it was quite rare to have a PC hire the Byn for something in general, despite my working very hard at it trying to fulfill my leaderly duties.  I think I only ever ran one escort job for a PC once, ever.  The only reason for this is the IG economics which have not significantly changed in years.  This is contrary to the documentation of course, which indicates that the Byn should be hired for all manner of things and escorts should be routine.  It left the clan with doing a whole lot of sparring and chores, in between major events that were few and far between.  Not to mention Troopers, who should be earning steady pay, completely broke.

Edit: I should mention that there was for a while an ongoing program led by the Byn imm(s) where the leaders were encouraged to make up imaginary contracts.  There were also a few imm-created ones that were originally suggested that we could choose and pick from.  We would then have to do whatever the contract called for - including playing make-believe if necessary, and on job 'success', we would 'get paid' by the VNPC through the imm.  I think even the fact that the VNPC contract program was there reflected the relative absurdity of the IG situation.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It'd be nice if the Byn had their own stables like other clans.

Maybe someone just needs to drive this. I don't know, I'm not on staff, but I'm just sayin'...player-driven.

I was repeatedly told this would never happen for IG reasons.

[Xeran Van Houten]

All Byn Sergeants are going to be different on how they charge for jobs or even whether they'll take certain jobs - every character's different.

But given the current state of the world, can you blame prices for escort to be so large?

[Manhattan]

Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.

Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?

GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..

[Gunnerblaster]

Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.

Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?

GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..

I think it's "promoted as a newbie clan" because it keeps newbies completely in-city boundaries (no wandering off death's) and your usually surrounded by other players - Not everyone who joins the Byn is a newbie, either. And when they are exposed to the outside, their typically given the 'low-down' on things.

[Gimfalisette]

I was repeatedly told this would never happen for IG reasons.

Has anyone asked since the change to make the game player-driven? If not, someone should ask.

Even without stables, come on, you guys...there's so much "no" in this thread. But Fathi played a very successful Byn Sergeant and seems to have come up with creative, flexible ways to do it. I don't remember her ever complaining of a lack of contracts, either. (Heck, I remember trying to hire her...they seemed very busy at the time.)

PCs need escort. The Byn needs contracts. Surely it can't be that hard to figure the problems out and make these things happen. Instead, what usually seems to happen is that Byn Sergeants just wait around to be introduced to the newest agent / noble / templar in hopes of getting a "big" contract from one of them. And it's just bad for the game, overall, when the Byn isn't getting out there and doing stuff.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I was repeatedly told this would never happen for IG reasons.

Has anyone asked since the change to make the game player-driven? If not, someone should ask.

I haven't, not having played in the clan since.  But if that change goes through, it could be real a sea-change for the clan and alter travel dynamics across the board for everyone else.

[Olgaris]

There is a reason Runners are not supposed to be paid. Maybe Sergeants who make a habit of paying Runners should experience mutiny from pissed off Troopers who can't earn any decent coin on contracts.

[Zoltan]

Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.

Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?

GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..

Correction: The Byn rules. The Byn also has food and water, at least before the HRPT.

Having played the ever-loving shit out of the Byn, let me tell you that Xeran and IA have the right of it. Stables in the southern compound aren't going to happen. A sergeant will probably -not- let just one or two of his men go off unsupervised just to keep a contract "fair" priced. Prices will fluctuate. No one -has- to use the Byn, and Byn leaders know this. Negotiate IG -- any consensus found on these boards for "fair" prices and doable jobs is unfair to anyone who's playing a Byn leader.

Gimf, most Byn leaders don't just sit waiting for shit to happen. Not in my very hands-on, playing during the player-driven-change experience.

And Olgaris has an extremely valid but hilariously-difficult to enact point.

[X-D]

Heh.

I'm gonna answer two posts here.

First, Don't pay the runners unless they did a better job then the troopers or there was no troopers...or none survived. Thats the way my sarges have done it.

Second, Mutinies.

I've seen, been involved in and staged them with my troopers in the past.

Hell, I've had PCs in many clans involved in fragging clan mates. Usually bad officers.
Sometimes though the officer was just in the way of my PCs promotion to said rank.

And when I have an officer, fending off mutinies can be fun as well.

[Aaron Goulet]

Wait 'til I'm a sarge, and I'll show you kids how it's done.

On a side note, the Byn is a great newbie clan because they have a consistently high head count, they consistently have good RPers to show new players the ropes, and the Byn atmosphere gives you a taste of how shitty life can be on Zalanthas...  Sometimes literally.

The 300 coin fee makes IC sense, simply because you are paying for a service (training).  Unlike other organizations, you can split if you want to.  Consider it like paying a year's food and rent up-front.

[Grey Area]

If an escort were run for 500 'sid, the standard Byn breakdown for a group of a Sergeant, a Trooper and two Runners results in the Trooper, who is supposed to be taking regular contracts as their livelihood, receiving about 50 coins or so, depending on whether the Runners are paid.

I don't see how you wind up with 50 coins for the trooper. Whenever I've been in the Byn, it'd break down like this:

The sarge always handled the bugs, so take away 80 coins for stabling four mounts and you're left with 420 'sid to be split between the Sergeant and the trooper, the lower ranked of which would probably get at least 150. Pretty respectable pay for a days work. Runners never got paid: the whole point of being a runner is having to scrounge to survive. If they were lucky they got last pick of the leftover loot.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Byn sucks. No food, no water, no stables, 300 sid fee to join.

Why is it promoted as a newbie clan?

GMH hunters do the same shit, if not better..

Correction: The Byn rules. The Byn also has food and water, at least before the HRPT.

I should say. the reason why I've been posting isn't to just be a naysayer.  Personally, the Byn is my #1 favourite clan in the game, bar none.  I love the grittiness, I love the comraderie, the infighting and the downlow politics.  The reason I've been posting is the hope that we can make it better.

But to answer Manhattan's question, I think it's a great newbie clan because while some players may chafe at the relatively strict rules and schedule of the clan, these benefit newer players on several levels.  First off, they promote player-longevity.  Assuming of course, the newbie doesn't attack the beetle-mount instead of the beetle-faceeater that is!  Player longevity allows a newbie to see how much wealth there is in interplayer relationships and evolving plotlines, which in my opinion really are the core of Armageddon.  Second, they serve to ingrain in the newbie that they must play and react to the virtual world accordingly.  If you break one of the rules, there will be corresponding consequences.  The schedule is followed every day, and can potentially teach the newbie that yes, while doing chores may not bring coded benefits to their PC, it could result in a different sort of play, which can be equally, or even more rewarding.  Finally, it introduces newbies to the grit and harshness of Armageddon - something that can be easily lost in other areas of the game, but in reality is so much a part of the game world as a whole.

[Oleupata]

Let's see...for a basic escort job, I'll be generous and say that the profit for a Trooper should be somewhere around 60 'sid. Escorts are easy pie.

So that means, assuming three troopers and a Sergeant (because you don't need more for your independent merchant who's just riding all by his lonesome to one of the cities):

                    60 x 4 = 240
20 x 4 for unstabling = 80
    Sarge's extra pay = 20
---------------------------------
                                 340 'sid, which methinks is a pretty decent cost for protection from the gith, elves, rogue mages, bandits, and wildlife who might just get a hankerin' for some nice chewie indie with cream filling and a side of a bagfull o' goods.

Runners don't get paid, because they're scum.

Parting thought: both as a Byn Sergeant and as a possible purveyor of contracts, feel free to offer non-monetary remuneration for the T'zai Byn's services.

[Xeran Van Houten]

That math doesn't look right...