Byn fees

[musashi]

I feel like Salt Merchant was also assuming that you have to take all 9+ people every time, everywhere ... which seems a bit silly to me from the get go.

Also I'm not sure where in the docs it suggests that the Byn shouldn't do greb work.

[Lizzie]

Setting up missions to collect things for virtual customers - are you going to pay your troopers with virtual sids for those jobs? Are you going to tell the stablemaster he's taking virtual sids to get your mounts out of the stables? And what about the cost of a new weapon, when your half-giant runner breaks another club over the scrab's head and it needs to be replaced?

These things aren't really useful in a Byn setting. In a GMH, where the house gets its income from things -other- than sending its hunters out, then yeah virtual orders works great. But when your employees rely on the sids the customer pays for each job, then collecting virtual sids from virtual customers won't work on coded employees who are expecting to get paid when they're done with the coded job.

[musashi]

I think you're missing the point a little of what I was talking about Lizzie.

When you and your Byn group go out to bash a few scrab and mine some 'sid for virtual contracts, you're skinning the scrab and mining the 'sid for real. So the coin you later make from selling it to the npc in the market place (and playing out the virtual side of things with emotes and what have you) ... that coin is real too.

You pay your Troopers and stable fees and whatever else with that real coin. The only part that needs to be virtual is the contract that provided the IC reasoning to go and do it in the first place.

But that was just one suggestion for how to keep from going bankrupt as a Byn Sarge, X-D provided some others, the staff were nice enough to point out how little you need to charge to actually make a decent run with 2-3 Bynners for a small time contract for another player character ... a lot of good suggestions were put out there. So I'm not sure what the problem still is.

[BlazinDayz]

I think one of you smarty pants should app a Byn Sarge and put all your theories to work!

[musashi]

Some of them already have. See X-D's post.

[Salt Merchant]

But that was just one suggestion for how to keep from going bankrupt as a Byn Sarge, X-D provided some others, the staff were nice enough to point out how little you need to charge to actually make a decent run with 2-3 Bynners for a small time contract for another player character ... a lot of good suggestions were put out there. So I'm not sure what the problem still is.

The staff member's example was off-center in a couple of respects. Firstly, it ignored the two shares that need to go to "higher places". Secondly, it ignored the Sergeant's right to a full two shares. The actual value should have been 340 - 80 = 260 coins net, divided by seven shares = a whopping 37 coins a share, not the 60 quoted.

[Salt Merchant]

I feel like Salt Merchant was also assuming that you have to take all 9+ people every time, everywhere ... which seems a bit silly to me from the get go.

In the example I provided, dropping the Runners would mean an addition of all of eleven coins a share.

[Salt Merchant]

When you and your Byn group go out to bash a few scrab and mine some 'sid for virtual contracts, you're skinning the scrab and mining the 'sid for real. So the coin you later make from selling it to the npc in the market place (and playing out the virtual side of things with emotes and what have you) ... that coin is real too.

In other words, subsidize the contracts with your own coin and build up extra risk doing it? This is a mercenary operation, not a charity. If a contract isn't going to be worth a reasonable profit, it makes no sense to do it.

[Salt Merchant]

Also I'm not sure where in the docs it suggests that the Byn shouldn't do greb work.

It is in the web-page document for the rank-and-file Bynner.

[Nyr]

This seems overly complicated.  Pay issues can be dealt with in-character by enterprising people on both sides of a possible Byn contract.

If the contract isn't profitable enough for the Byn, renegotiate, cut corners, or decline the contract.  I've seen a few Byn leaders manage to do jobs well and get bonuses, too.
If the contract is too expensive for the contracted employer, renegotiate, cut corners, or cancel the contract.  I've seen a few contracted employers work out ways to pay the Byn in other ways.

[Zoltan]

For what it's worth, I agree with you for the most part, Salt, and always thought you did an exceptional job with the role. I don't think there is any way at all to come to an OOC consensus on any of this. Every single bit of this should be handled ICly. But I think the one thing that you've brought to attention though is the definite playability issues.

The Byn is a clan that relies extremely heavily on the PC population as a whole, in everything. You (usually) need PC contacts for jobs. You absolutely -need- PCs in the clan to do -anything-. And I don't just mean cannon fodder. You need characters that will last to become troopers, and even more importantly, sergeants when the leaders invariably kick the bucket/have-had-enough-already and leave. You keep PCs by rewarding them and having fun. This is almost as much OOC as IC, which can put a sergeant in an extremely uncomfortable position. Of -course- a leader as a player will want to involve everyone they can because that's how people have fun, and maybe they'll be more likely to stick around. It's very tough wanting to "do well" as a leader OOCly while keeping it ICly real. Actually, it's not -that- tough... you know what, it's a lot easier without threads like this, that's for sure.

As to what Shadow said about time and coordination. Yes. That was the biggest headache. An actual contract that took me under two hours RL to see through from beginning to end was a rarity. A 'Nak-Tuluk escort involves far more time than what the actual job entails, and can be difficult to coordinate effectively (especially those return trips, as many a lonely runner or trooper could attest). I said difficult: it's certainly not impossible. Of course, all of this is just based on my own experience. Many people have played Byn sergeants, and it was likely different for everyone. Those of you that haven't played a Byn sergeant, cool down on your certainty on some things. It can be an extremely difficult role, especially for people that reach it on their very first character (I've seen this a few times, and it even happened to me).

[LoD]

When I was playing a Sergeant in the Byn, I chose a subclass with armor crafting.

In our many trips out in the wilderness, we would often bring back several scrab shells and other such scraps that I would then work on turning into wristguards, breastplates, pauldrons, and whatever else could be made.  Some of these were dumped into the Byn stores to be issued to new recruits, while the bulk of it was sold (by myself) to the surrounding the stores.  I would then take the money generated by those sales and take the Byn out on virtual missions to be paid with real money.

I'd send an email to the clan Imm letting them know what I was going to be doing, in case they were going to be around and wanted to participate, add some background flavor, or comment.  Mostly what I received was silence, which was completely fine with me because I was having a great time just interacting with the other personalities in the group.

In the end, it's about the stories, relationships, and adventures that you have in the game world.  And I've found that there are very few limitations when you are willing to pursue creative solutions and work hard for results.

-LoD

[X-D]

I'd like to comment on the point of Byn not being grebbers.

While this is true, remember, Runners are not Byn yet.

When I'm playing a Byn sarge I encouraged the runners to be doing something...sure, keep watch. But, Resting the mounts on the salt flats. Drop a salt sack and a bag, all but 1 color salt goes in the sack, runners will get to split that, the other color goes into the bag, call it the byn/sarge/troopers cut.

Be creative....like Nyr said.

Also, maximize loot. Figure out which trooper/runner has the haggle skill for instance. Somebody with good haggle can change 200 coins of gear into 300++, It all adds up.

[Xeran Van Houten]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35138.0.html

Someone of us just got our chance.

[Vessol]

I was looking at that and thinking if I should app. But I dunno if I have the time. If I did though, I'd jump on that like Michael Moore on a hamburger. Being a Byn Sergeant is very fun.

[Zoltan]

Someone get on this! You won't regret it (probably)!

[Praetorian]

Very tempting.  Maybe in a few months.

[Uberskaapie]

I would- I've always wanted to play one, but my characters never die. (And, that line about being responsible for other peoples' perception of the game stresses me out).

On topic. It's been maybe six months since I've interacted with a bynner, so I may be off base here. I'd like to see a perception change. In my mind, Bynners as a social class are just the tiniest step above beggars. For the most part, the bynners will take anyone, even just to use as cannon fodder. Troopers=Runners who don't need to shovel shit. Sergeants and above should be the only ones who expect to make any coin from a contract at all. They're expected to perform on contracts because I've been feeding them all year. I'd definitely adopt a "Do what I say or GTFO" attitude. The troopers and runners already get as much food as they can eat. After the life you lived before I we met, that's not enough? If I'm a sergeant and I decide to take a cheap job, I might take all the money. If you're actually helping to make money, and you kiss my ass you'll probably get a bonus. I imagine my hypothetical Byn Sergeant might not be popular, but I'd persoanally love to play an underling if my boss wasn't all about democratically divvying up shares.

That and I don't like when people talk about how IC payment needs to correspond with OOC risk.

[Zoltan]

Your average sergeant or trooper is much better than a beggar, socially. They're a trade professional.

[Uberskaapie]

I know they are- I just kinda wish they were seen as even scrappier than they are now.

[Praetorian]

Troopers=Runners who don't need to shovel shit. Sergeants and above should be the only ones who expect to make any coin from a contract at all. They're expected to perform on contracts because I've been feeding them all year. I'd definitely adopt a "Do what I say or GTFO" attitude. The troopers and runners already get as much food as they can eat. After the life you lived before I we met, that's not enough? If I'm a sergeant and I decide to take a cheap job, I might take all the money. If you're actually helping to make money, and you kiss my ass you'll probably get a bonus.

I'd wish you -alot- of luck with this.  It would give whole meaning to the 'Army of One' concept...mainly because you would probably be pretty alone.  How are your runners/troopers going to buy mounts?  Repair armor?  Buy weapons if they break?  How about soap and armor brushes to spiffy themselves up to head down to the Gaj, hire a prostitute, and drink some ale?  There is already a social class in the game that works for food and water alone while leaving the rest up to their masters - they are called slaves.  The only difference being a slave-owner provides all the extraneous necessities that their property requires, where a sergeant doesn't.  Your average runner/trooper would either revolt against the 'screw you the sid is all mine' or simply up and leave due to being treated poorly.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I never played a Byn Sergeant. Here is how I'd think if I were, though.

On simple Tuluk-to-Allanak escort missions (or any other kind really) where you want to bring every Bynner you can, just have everyone walk. Voila, you solve several problems at once:

Sounds good, except for not solving the problem where your potential client tells you to shove it and they'll just ride themselves because they're not waiting for your slow walking ass to get ambushed on the way.

And yes - that happened to one of my Sergeants before, when I had just lost a bunch of my spare mounts to a (hilarious) OOC mishap.

[Gunnerblaster]

Troopers=Runners who don't need to shovel shit. Sergeants and above should be the only ones who expect to make any coin from a contract at all. They're expected to perform on contracts because I've been feeding them all year. I'd definitely adopt a "Do what I say or GTFO" attitude. The troopers and runners already get as much food as they can eat. After the life you lived before I we met, that's not enough? If I'm a sergeant and I decide to take a cheap job, I might take all the money. If you're actually helping to make money, and you kiss my ass you'll probably get a bonus.

I'd wish you -alot- of luck with this.  It would give whole meaning to the 'Army of One' concept...mainly because you would probably be pretty alone.  How are your runners/troopers going to buy mounts?  Repair armor?  Buy weapons if they break?  How about soap and armor brushes to spiffy themselves up to head down to the Gaj, hire a prostitute, and drink some ale?  There is already a social class in the game that works for food and water alone while leaving the rest up to their masters - they are called slaves.  The only difference being a slave-owner provides all the extraneous necessities that their property requires, where a sergeant doesn't.  Your average runner/trooper would either revolt against the 'screw you the sid is all mine' or simply up and leave due to being treated poorly.

No - Let him. I wholeheartedly agree with character personalities like this because it actually adds some life to things - Right up until he's mutinied on one of those cheap missions of his. I notice too many people are "nice" on Arm. We need more cut-throat activities.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I'd like to comment on the point of Byn not being grebbers.

While this is true, remember, Runners are not Byn yet.

I think this is an interesting concept, X-D.

Maybe it's because I was playing during the time when the Byn was still Krrx's baby that I kept to the rules so much.  Krrx's rules (and he was pretty much a hardass) were my way or the highway type deal.

I'm sure it would benefit the Byn (and the rest of the playerbase, really) if some of the rules were relaxed or changed for the purpose of playability.. again, I don't really know anything about the current situation at all, if things have changed since I last played a Byn leader.

Or, as some people suggest, just have the character do it IC'ly and take the consequences that come.  But Salt Merchant has a good point - if it's a matter of having to break the rules all the time, that means the rules no longer fit the IG realities and why would any organization maintain such rules if that's the case?

[Zoltan]

I think that -- for the most part -- the Byn rules nowadays are whatever the sergeants or lieutenant says, so long as the Byn is making a profit, and so long as it makes sense in the game world.