Players are noticing lately that there is very little activity in the area of Tuluki nobility. Surif nobility appears to be nearly entirely absent from the social scene due to lack of players in those roles, and Surif nobility in particular is very important to the political life and roleplay of Tuluk (as distinguished from Hlum nobility).
Quote from: Barzalene on September 03, 2008, 11:26:01 AM
I'm really enjoying Tuluk these days.
My only complaint is I wish there were some Tuluki nobles.
4 would be perfect.
1 would be an improvement.
Quote from: Malken on September 03, 2008, 11:29:33 AM
No kidding.. <snip> How is the patronage system supposed to work with no one to be patrons of?
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 03, 2008, 12:22:36 PM
It is very lonely to play a noble in Tuluk. Especially without other nobles to hobnob with.
It has been over a year now (since February 2007 by my observation) since there have been adequate numbers of active PC Surif nobles to do things such as:
-- Patronize bards and other Tuluki citizens.
-- Throw RPTs.
-- Run the qynar system and the very potentially-juicy political intrigue that is attendant on such activity.
-- Purchase high-end items from GMH and other merchants.
The result is a city that feels like it's full of only commoners--a flat society where there is almost no political activity, nothing brewing plot-wise at the higher levels, and no point to some characters. (Circle bards especially are highly impacted, but licensed sneaky types are also under-utilized when there are not enough active nobles.)
When I played a Tuluki noble from October 2006 to February 2007, there were 5 to 6 active nobles that entire time--this was the "Tuluki renaissance" period when all the nobles houses were opened up for play and we created the qynar system. It was wonderful and amazing and fun, we had much scheming to do against one another, we involved a lot of players under us, we ran a lot of plots and RPTs, we gave the templars a good run for their money. It was really fun to play amongst that many nobles because we could make friends, lovers, and enemies of one another--which really can't be done with noble-commoner PC interaction. After my character died, it seemed like the imms consciously decided not to replace Tuluki nobles with new characters--I assume due to the dwindling playerbase at the time, where we dropped about 100 unique players per week and Tuluk was nearly a ghost town.
However, our player count is much higher again now. I submit that it is time to end the languishing of Tuluki nobility, and again see at -least- 4 active, peak-time Tuluki noble PCs so that Tuluk can once more be a political playland. There are plenty of minion-type PCs in Tuluk, now we just need enough nobles on top of the pile to use them.
Arm's current playerbase size doesn't support having an adequate hierarchy of templarate / nobility in both Allanak and Tuluk simultaneously in my opinion. There's just not enough of us to fill the necessary roles as more nobles means more hiring needs. If we opened up more nobility slots I think we'd just end up with Houses having very few employees and these new nobles would be bored out of their minds as they wouldn't be able to achieve anything without having hires to do the dirty work. Without wishing to derail the thread too much what Arm needs, in my opinion, is one city-state with 5-7 nobles and 2-3 templars. This would allow for Houses to have hire properly and compete with each other in a more meaningful way. While the rebirth of Tuluk some years ago was nice in that it gave a centre of civilisation with a completely different culture it was, unfortunately, the death-knell for sustained local political intrigue and conflict.
Are there people out there who were interested in these roles but waiting for the right time to take them? Are the imms interested in supporting these roles at this time?
If the answer is yes on both fronts then it's just a matter of hooking the right players up with the right imms.
If the answer is no, then it's a matter of what we can do to create a better climate to support the side of the equation that's not ready.
Tuluk would have worked much better if Utep had just stepped on out his tower, kept his military, and been the absolute ruler, with no Nobles to jockey about. A peasant state under the fist of the military.
It would certianly have defined it from Allanak even -more-. And everything but patronship would have fit in perfectly.
Frankly, this could still happen....
I think people don't know what is possible or what even to do with a noble in tuluk
Quote from: Boggis on September 03, 2008, 01:12:32 PM
Arm's current playerbase size doesn't support having an adequate hierarchy of templarate / nobility in both Allanak and Tuluk simultaneously in my opinion. There's just not enough of us to fill the necessary roles as more nobles means more hiring needs. If we opened up more nobility slots I think we'd just end up with Houses having very few employees and these new nobles would be bored out of their minds as they wouldn't be able to achieve anything without having hires to do the dirty work.
Tuluk is not going away any time soon. Since Tuluk is not going away any time soon, there needs to be some kind of solution for mundane commoner play within its walls; currently there are almost no nobles to provide plots, interaction, and quests to licensed sneakies, bards, and other Tuluk-unique character concepts.
Tuluki nobles do not necessarily hire a lot of employees. When I played, in fact, we had a very severe restriction on the quantity of employees we could hire (2). I assume there is some restriction of this type still in place. What Tuluki nobles do which is very unique and beneficial to the playerbase as a whole is
take partisans. Partisans are indie characters with a lot of freedom who are hooked into the political interplay of the city via their connection to a patron.
Also, a good player in a noble spot can get a lot done with only 2 employees and a handful of partisans. Really it's not that hard. I ran RPTs, built a shop, plotted assassinations, and kept my people very busy. And this is at a time when we had FEWER players than we do right now, and certainly many fewer characters in Tuluk.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 03, 2008, 01:18:29 PM
Are there people out there who were interested in these roles but waiting for the right time to take them? Are the imms interested in supporting these roles at this time?
If the answer is yes on both fronts then it's just a matter of hooking the right players up with the right imms.
If the answer is no, then it's a matter of what we can do to create a better climate to support the side of the equation that's not ready.
Quote from: mansa on September 03, 2008, 01:35:32 PM
I think people don't know what is possible or what even to do with a noble in tuluk
I've helped a few people over the last couple years come to understand Tuluk well enough so that they could play bards of the Circle, or nobles, or just regular Amos commoners. I'd be happy to help anyone who thinks they'd like to make a try at the job of playing a noble. Playing a Tuluki noble is HARD (like any leadership role), no doubt about it; but can be very rewarding. Questions can even be asked in this thread, and answers provided, if it will help folks gear up for playing competent nobles.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 01:37:38 PM
Also, a good player in a noble spot can get a lot done with only 2 employees and a handful of partisans.
There are currently 6 nobles and three templars in Allanak. Assume they each employ two people, which is a vast underestimate, that's 27 players in total.
At the time Tuluk's politics was simmering, I believe Allanak was suffering. I agree with Boggis that there does not seem to be enough players to go around and fill all the spots.
Quote from: Melody on September 03, 2008, 02:11:41 PM
There are currently 6 nobles and three templars in Allanak. Assume they each employ two people, which is a vast underestimate, that's 27 players in total.
Which is not even 10% of the current playerbase. Allanak generally supports about 35 to 40% of the playerbase, Tuluk about 25 to 30%. I'm not seeing the issue.
Why should Allanak be the only city-state that's got adequate leadership to provide political play?
Having played extensively in both cities, and leadership in both cities, I am weary of the argument that only one or the other (usually Allanak) should be allowed to flourish. People just need to get over the rah-rahism.
We're over-complicating things.
Allow Chosen Lords and Ladies to have sex with commoners like they can in Allanak and you'll see a whole bunch of them suddenly appearing.
I know my playerbase.
Another problem is that we only see one Chosen once in a blue moon, they appear, there's no other Chosens to play with, they last two weeks or so, then they store.
Then a couple of months later the same thing happen with another Chosen.
In the last year or so, I can think of only one Chosen who played regularly and seemed to enjoy his role.
You wonder why the Grey Hunt is never that popular? It's probably due to the fact that no one wants to end up being a Chosen in Tuluk.. I told someone as a joke
the other day that I would consider it when I'm tired of my character and wants him stored.
Be that as it may, the playerbase is fluid.
There are a finite # of spots that can be filled. That doesn't mean that if people want to play some roles and other people would like those roles filled that that should be invalidated because it would inconvenience the people who would rather play in the other city.
If that were true we could all cry that there are so many nobles in Nak.
We'll wait for the tuluki noble staff to weigh in on what's available.
That said, the point has been made, and it's valid that because of the freedom the playerbase enjoys to play in so many places, positions, races, and clans there are never enough to fill all possible positions to a robust level. This and other factors, such as solid leadership, playtimes, player population fluxuation, and such, lead to cyclical population and activity, often by clan, area, and such.
There are no plans that I'm aware of to shut down half the world, to further populate the other half, even though it's been suggested to various degrees. We don't believe in forcing you to play a certain race, class, or clan, and I don't think in general folks would appreciate such a shift in policy, even though there could be some benefits to it.
Quote from: Dakurus on September 03, 2008, 02:29:53 PM
We'll wait for the tuluki noble staff to weigh in on what's available.
Thank you, Dakurus, I'd love to hear their input on the situation (and I'm sure other players would also).
Quote from: Dakurus on September 03, 2008, 02:29:53 PMThat said, the point has been made, and it's valid that because of the freedom the playerbase enjoys to play in so many places, positions, races, and clans there are never enough to fill all possible positions to a robust level. This and other factors, such as solid leadership, playtimes, player population fluxuation, and such, lead to cyclical population and activity, often by clan, area, and such.
This is, of course, true. However, the entire game and also Tuluk have been in an upswing for the past 6 months or more; thus, my assertion that this is a very good time to put some more Tuluki nobles in place, as there are plenty of minions for them to use--and plenty of minions who are going unused right now, with no other outlet. (Seriously, it totally sucks to play a Tuluki bard when there are no nobles around to be patrons. BTDT, it's a no-fun bummer.)
Quote from: Boggis on September 03, 2008, 01:12:32 PM
Arm's current playerbase size doesn't support having an adequate hierarchy of templarate / nobility in both Allanak and Tuluk simultaneously in my opinion. There's just not enough of us to fill the necessary roles as more nobles means more hiring needs. If we opened up more nobility slots I think we'd just end up with Houses having very few employees and these new nobles would be bored out of their minds as they wouldn't be able to achieve anything without having hires to do the dirty work. Without wishing to derail the thread too much what Arm needs, in my opinion, is one city-state with 5-7 nobles and 2-3 templars. This would allow for Houses to have hire properly and compete with each other in a more meaningful way. While the rebirth of Tuluk some years ago was nice in that it gave a centre of civilisation with a completely different culture it was, unfortunately, the death-knell for sustained local political intrigue and conflict.
I know many others consider even the idea of having one main city state to be heresy (and if it hasn't happened by now, is unlikely to), yet I can't help but completely agree.
And in case anyone who's reading this is having that vague tickling that says, "Hey, maybe I should app to play a Tuluki noble?":
What's Cool About Playing A Tuluki Surif Noble
-- You get a stipend.
-- You get a nifty estate.
-- You get to govern a qynar or two, which is a potential basis for a HUGE amount of interesting plot stuff.
-- You can't screw commoners, but you can screw infertile VNPC sex slaves who are kept constantly locked inside your estate, just waiting for your no-strings pleasure.
-- You get to read and write sirihish.
-- Tuluki nobles can engage in skill-building quite extensively: There have been crafting nobles, combat leader nobles, ranger-y nobles, etc. This is stylistically very, very different from Allanaki nobles, because Tuluki nobles are EXPECTED to be competent people, not lazy fops.
-- Tuluki nobles can leave the city quite a bit for various purposes, and don't need to have some big RPT reason to do so, nor multiple units of Byn as escort.
-- You can sit at the bar in the Sanc, or the Firestorm, or even the Tooth. Yes, sit at the bar with the commoners, and actually talk to them and socialize like a normal PC. The massive social separation between nobles and commoners that's seen in Allanak just is not necessary in Tuluk, because of the cross-caste sexual taboo.
In the past few years I've played with some great and extremely well-played Tuluki Nobles. I can see little reason to just throw in a towel and say "We don't have enough players for it."
I think that the -main- reason there seems to be a slow down lately IG of characters and plots is due to many players going back to college/high school and having less time to play until they get their schedule down.
I seriously applaud efforts like this to turn bitching into constructive conversation and action!
And in that spirit, as tempted as I am to get into the holes in the 'multiple centres dilute the player base and ruin the game' theory, I don't think that was the intended purpose of this thread and isn't even on the table as an option.
I agree with the OP. Tuluk feels like it has a lot of unrealized potential. I can't really speak to what the reality of the situation is or what it would actually take to improve it, since all I'm working on is experiential data and assumptions. I can however speculate, and my feeling is that 4-6 active nobles could really stir things up, create more opportunities in Tuluk, allow for the population to expand and remain high, and create opportunities for conflict and cooperation between the city states. Fluctuations in populations and the entire player base can be expected, but the resulting excitement from something like that might actually draw and keep players we wouldn't otherwise have access to.
It just doesn't feel to me like the documentation and possibility of that particular region of the world is being realized, and that's a damn shame considering the quality of what's there, the quality of the players and staff involved, and the work that's gone into the history, environment and culture.
Now for all I know there are some awesome and active nobles up there, but if there are I have neither seen them or heard about them. If that's the case then apologies to them. I might just not 'get' Tuluk, as I haven't played there much. Still, it seems to me that the source of much of the conflict, plots and action in the game are as a result of hierarchy, player leaders and competition between players and organizations. If everyone is roughly the same social class things are going to be a lot easier and quieter.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 01:37:38 PM
Tuluk is not going away any time soon. Since Tuluk is not going away any time soon, there needs to be some kind of solution for mundane commoner play within its walls; currently there are almost no nobles to provide plots, interaction, and quests to licensed sneakies, bards, and other Tuluk-unique character concepts.
I still don't believe we can really support the two happening properly at the same time. If you'd played back when Allanak was the only real centre of political play I think you might see where I'm coming from. Back then there were usually 2-3 templars and usually a couple of nobles each in Borsail, Oash, Tor and Fale (less so). Throw into that mix Kadian, Salarri, Kuraci and Nenyuki family members. Then add in the Guild and the Byn. It was a proper snake pit with all sorts of plots and sub-plots going on. There was always action and something going on. Now, we're too diversified and the playerbase is spread too thin to cover all the roles even semi-adequately. When Allanak is hopping Tuluk is suffering and vice versa. This isn't "rah rahism" as you blithely dimiss it. This is just my opinion based on 8+ years play and I believe that the overall level of sustained political intrigue dropped immensely when Tuluk came into play. I'm not anti-Tuluk - I think Tuluk would be a very interesting place to play in if it was the only centre of political play. I just don't think we can do it justice currently.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 01:37:38 PM
Also, a good player in a noble spot can get a lot done with only 2 employees and a handful of partisans. Really it's not that hard. I ran RPTs, built a shop, plotted assassinations, and kept my people very busy. And this is at a time when we had FEWER players than we do right now, and certainly many fewer characters in Tuluk.
Yes, there may be times when the pieces come together for a while and things happen. It's unsustainable though given our numbers in my experience. Opening up a few noble slots isn't going to be the answer to the problem of the over-diversification of the playerbase. Simply put my opinion is that when you put a large number of players in one location they will automatically start to come into conflict with each other. You don't even need a "good noble" to stir things up. They'll just happen. Spread the playerbase out and you end up depending on solid leadership to kick things into life for a while as players tend to cooperate more when there's fewer of them around. Having said all that this re-concentration of players isn't going to happen in Arm and I'm sure there'd be many players who wouldn't want it to happen so I think we'll end up just ticking along with the usual ebb and flow of play from place to place. Tuluk will have its time again and people will ask why Allanak doesn't have any nobles.
First of all, I hate Allanak. I never want to play in Allanak except when I'm in between two Tuluki characters, so let's not try to derail this conversation that way.
I can easily count nearly twenty five different characters playing regularly in Tuluk these days, so I'm sure that we could easily get three more to play nobles, IF NOBLES IN TULUK WERE AN INTERESTING ROLES.
I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying that if not many are applying or asking why there's no opening for Tuluki nobles, then maybe it's because it's not appealing to the majority of our playerbase.
So when something isn't appealing, we can try and make it better.. That is something that could be made better ICly, just like some current changes are happening right now in Tuluk.
This is my perfect Tuluki political setting, as you'll see, it doesn't require a whole bunch of players:
- 1 active Faithful Lord
- 1 active Faithful Lady
- 3 active Chosen Lords or Ladies (so that if one of them hates your PC, then you have the chance to find backup with another Chosen, and three allows them to mingle amongst each others and plot.)
That's all! 5 active characters is all that's needed.
Quote from: Boggis on September 03, 2008, 03:22:13 PM
Now, we're too diversified and the playerbase is spread too thin to cover all the roles even semi-adequately. When Allanak is hopping Tuluk is suffering and vice versa...I believe that the overall level of sustained political intrigue dropped immensely when Tuluk came into play. I'm not anti-Tuluk - I think Tuluk would be a very interesting place to play in if it was the only centre of political play. I just don't think we can do it justice currently.
The problem with your logic is that you are assuming that the current playerbase is all there is. Yet, we are currently growing and have now approximately the same number of players we did when there were 5 active nobles in Tuluk, and at least 4 active nobles in Allanak. (The time period when I played a Tuluki noble.)
It's also important to remember that limiting options to the playerbase is not, in and of itself, growth-promoting. The opposite is true; the more options people have, and the better-marketed those options are, the more likely they are to purchase. (This is why corporations are always putting out new products.)
A lot of newbies go through Tuluk; either on their first character because it sounds "easier" than Allanak, or another early character when they find out you can't hunt as an indie in Allanak. We are doing them a disservice by not providing the full range of opportunities, interactions, and culture-exposure in Tuluk.
Quote from: Boggis on September 03, 2008, 03:22:13 PMTuluk will have its time again and people will ask why Allanak doesn't have any nobles.
In my ARM experience thus far, Allanak has never had a drought of so few nobles, for so long, as Tuluk has. AFAIK, the number of active Tuluki nobles has not been higher than 3 at any time since February 2007, and has more often been 1 or 2. And of the 1 or 2, only 1 really very active. Whereas in Allanak, same timeframe, the lowest number of nobles I've seen is 2, fairly active, and more often 4+, all active.
Note that a year ago, when we had a much-reduced playerbase, I wouldn't have said we needed new Tuluki nobles, because at that time we did NOT have the playerbase to support them. But now we do. And it's time.
Melody wrote:
QuoteThere are currently 6 nobles and three templars in Allanak. Assume they each employ two people, which is a vast underestimate, that's 27 players in total.
Well then here's a novel idea: force the least active templar, and the three least active nobles to retire, or kill them off along with their 2 aides each. That's 4 potential noble/templars for Tuluk, plus 8 potential new tuluki aids/employees/partisans. 12 new Tulukis to contribute to actual Tuluk RP, instead of tavern-sitting and idling and waiting for someone with the authority to do something interesting.
Even more fun with my math...it's 4 LESS people who insist on taking roles that demand their active participation and never log in, or log in and idle for hours, that the game has to deal with. AND...those employees of those people, who are now stored or killed off with their employers, can breath a HUGE sigh of relief, and apply for the *active* noble/templar roles so desperately needed in Tuluk.
Guys, it's not a zero-sum game. Nothing needs to be taken away from or changed in Allanak. Allanak is fine.
Tuluk isn't fine, it's what needs to be fixed at the moment. Fixing Tuluk doesn't mean nerfing Allanak.
It's interesting how people say that Tuluk has never reached its full potential. One would think, that by this stage in the game, it would have at one time. For all intents and purposes, it is a far less restrictive environment. Nobles can be active doing stuff, RP more with commoners or buddy up to them. Commoners can even rise to nobility. The Templars are 'generally' more benevolent. The hunting is much easier by an order of magnitude.
In short, Tuluk has every conceivable advantage, yet there are still those who say it has never reached its potential or attracted the sustained playerbase of Nak. Which is to all intents and purposes, a much more lethal, unfriendly environment where the nobles are far more restricted in their interactions.
I wonder why that is. And it's not just because Allanak is more familiar. For heaven's sake, Tuluks been open for years and the game is nearing the end of its lifespan as a whole, so it can't be just because people are attached to Nak. If anything, the people who've been around Nak the longest, I've found, are more ready to go up there just for a change of pace.
So what exactly makes Tuluk less appealing? It'd be rather sad if the sole reason for the disparity was the lack of mudsex opportunities. Afterall, there are virtually no mudsex opportunities in say, the T'zai Byn (except the bad kind) and its never had a shortage of those willing to step up as leaders.
You would think that the idea of being an quasi hunter + noble with untold riches would appeal to more.
I think the flaw is in the way Tuluki society is set up. No offense to those who worked so hard on it, but its documented traditions are too rigid in some places and too convoluted in others for the majority of the playerbase to fully understand, take advantage of, and incorporate. It is a case of something sounding good in theory, but not working in practice.
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 03, 2008, 04:50:54 PM
I think the flaw is in the way Tuluki society is set up. No offense to those who worked so hard on it, but its documented traditions are too rigid in some places and too convoluted in others for the majority of the playerbase to fully understand, take advantage of, and incorporate. It is a case of something sounding good in theory, but not working in practice.
I definitely think that's part of it. The documentation is hard to understand, it's easy to get the traditions wrong, some of the docs are buried in places on the website where no one will ever find them, and often even folks who have played in Tuluk a lot still have knowledge gaps.
There are a few other issues. Tuluk is decried by many as "ez mode" or "fluffy" or "girly." It's "not really Armageddon" to those who believe that the Byn is the only valid expression of Zalanthan life. This idea prevents many players from giving Tuluk a fair shake.
Prior to the change to the qynar system, Tuluk also suffered a serious lack of built-in conflict in the upper rungs of society. Compare to Allanak: Blue-robe templars are all the same rank and almost always from the Ministry of War. That means they are in direct competition with one another. In Tuluk, newbie templars may or may not be in any kind of competition with one another; conflict lacks. And with the nobility, prior to the qynar system, Tuluki nobles came either from Tenneshi or Winrothol, no other houses, which completely flattened competition out. It's not as inviting to compete with someone from your own clan. There's much more potential for conflict under the qynar system, with all the houses open for play.
And yes, I do think that the cut-off of potential for relationships between nobles and commoners in Tuluk, while it has the good effect of preventing nobles from spending all their time mudsexing, does present a barrier to people. It just seems to be difficult for many players to figure out how to build meaningful, interesting relationships between PCs when there is no possibility for mudsex. Sad truth.
There are other small issues, too...there are some players who vehemently hate Tuluk's layout, which is admittedly awkward in some ways. And such players refuse to play there at all.
QuoteIt just seems to be difficult for many players to figure out how to build meaningful, interesting relationships between PCs when there is no possibility for mudsex. Sad truth.
I think it's a sad partial truth. The bigger truth, is that there is no possibility for ANY romantic intimacy between nobles PCs and non-noble PCs in Tuluk. According to the docs, the very -idea- of a noble being romantically attracted to a commoner is repulsive, and both nobles and commoners alike would be equally repulsed by it.
I really think this puts a HUGE damper on things, because even among players who fade on a regular basis (including myself), romance, sex, and emotional intimacy provide a more balanced 3-dimensional character. If I'm playing a noble who is only allowed to be romantically interested in other nobles, and there is no other noble PC to interact with (let alone become romantically interested in), then my character will eventually feel very flat to me, and I will lose interest. Not because I'm not mudsexing. But rather, because I'm not allowed to play a character with sexual/romantic interests (forget about activities- I'm talking about just interests) outside the VNPC population. I mean, forget about being romantically interested in any of the templars. That is just about as much an option as being interested in a Senior Salarr Agent. Which is to say, it isn't an option.
I find that silly, and limiting to the extreme.
I've recently become a real Tuluki fan.
It took my six and a half years though. I started a pc, that I came very close to storing. I sat and seethed at all the happy smiling people. I thought 'Ugh,' And then I got a chance to play around the power players. And my perspective changed. I started to see that not everyone who seemed to be benign was.
I came to really enjoy the culture. And some really strong players are the people -to- play with and playing there.
Then my pc died. And I ended up back in Nak. And you know what? There's a lot of smiling fluffiness there. There are issues. Some players are more fun to play with than others.
But I really feel that if you play in Tuluk long enough to come to really like or really hate one other pc, that you'll play there long enough get drawn in.
So, I'm sorry, back to the point here. I think the fact that Tuluk -feels- different (and if you're taking only a cursory glance, less Zalanthan) is why Tuluk hasn't peaked.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 03:47:18 PM
The problem with your logic is that you are assuming that the current playerbase is all there is. Yet, we are currently growing and have now approximately the same number of players we did when there were 5 active nobles in Tuluk, and at least 4 active nobles in Allanak. (The time period when I played a Tuluki noble.)
I didn't think we had the numbers back then to support the two properly and I don't think we have the numbers now. I think that that 4 nobles in a city-state is the bare bones minimum and often doesn't really lead to sustainable political play. I'd say that we need the following for sustained political intrigue with both inter and intra House conflict (bearing in mind the different timezones people play in):
3 Templars - 15 hires
8 Nobles - 32 hires + patrons if in Tuluk
6 GMH family members - 20 hires
2 Mercenary Sergeants - 20 hires
2 Crime bosses - 15 hires
Won't happen in both places I think unless we grow quite a bit. I'd agree that we do a disservice currently to new players by not having Tuluki options open for play so I'd definitely go ahead and open up a few slots but it just glosses over the bigger issue to me which is the general design of the gameworld for the number of players we have (even if we are growing slightly).
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 03:47:18 PM
It's also important to remember that limiting options to the playerbase is not, in and of itself, growth-promoting. The opposite is true; the more options people have, and the better-marketed those options are, the more likely they are to purchase. (This is why corporations are always putting out new products.)
I just think we'd be better off marketing one complete product instead of two incomplete ones as what keeps new players is getting solid interaction from the get go. But what appeals to me may not appeal to others and they may be perfectly happy with a city with 4 nobles. I just think that we're not getting the potential from either city like this and it kind've irritates me because I've seen how politically charged the game can be. But seeing as we have to deal with the situation as is I guess we should open up a few slots and try to get some things moving. It certainly won't hurt the game in general to try. I'm just praying that something similar doesn't arise in Arm 2.
Boggis and Lizzie wrote my post for me.
I do think it's possible to have fun in Tuluk as is - I certainly have - but there are definite areas which need improvement. Condensing the playerbase into one city while allowing for some outward spread (outposts, minor civilization centers) is an ideal option to me, but not a particularly viable-looking one at the time. As it is, political RP tends to fall flat, and there are often two disparate situations of either too many minions and not enough masters, or too many masters and not enough minions. It's rare and all too brief, if beautiful, when it all is balanced.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 03, 2008, 05:15:08 PM
stuff
Well yeah, that's generally what I mean. That's why having just one additional noble in Tuluk won't completely fix the issues. I'm not ashamed to say that meaningful relationships are always important to my characters (and fascinating to me), and if my Tuluki noble hadn't had a (socially valid) lover, plus friends and competitors at her own social level, I would have been a lot less interested in the character. Tuluki noble players are people too, and want to have fun with their characters just like any of the rest of us do.
Quote from: Boggis on September 03, 2008, 05:21:00 PM
But what appeals to me may not appeal to others and they may be perfectly happy with a city with 4 nobles. I just think that we're not getting the potential from either city like this and it kind've irritates me because I've seen how politically charged the game can be. But seeing as we have to deal with the situation as is I guess we should open up a few slots and try to get some things moving. It certainly won't hurt the game in general to try. I'm just praying that something similar doesn't arise in Arm 2.
I'm not saying the situation is perfect...yet. I think we need to continue to work on growing the playerbase. And meantime, Tuluk deserves a full life of its own. 4 nobles and 2 templars is actually a reasonable quantity to get stuff going in Tuluk, assuming they are all active.
I believe that the Staff have taken player distribution and settlement structure into account in the next game and are working on methods of allowing variety and a fair distribution while still encouraging interaction. My understanding was that they plan to do so through geographic as well as political and social means.
In the meantime we have Armageddon and there's no reason to think they're going to close Tuluk. For this conversation to go in anything like a positive direction I think it has to discuss why northern noble roles aren't being filled, not whether they should be filled. Debating over whether Tuluk should or should not exist is a waste of breath - rather than beating our collective heads against a wall, we need to find a way to make things work.
I'm inclined to think the matter of romantic relationships is a fairly small factor, though certainly one. It's not the only role that discourages that (half giants come to mind) and while it could be a strike against them, it also allows for some other interesting scandal, conflict and personal strife. IE: Something that can be worked out in game and imho fun.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 03, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
For this conversation to go in anything like a positive direction I think it has to discuss why northern noble roles aren't being filled, not whether they should be filled. Debating over whether Tuluk should or should not exist is a waste of breath - rather than beating our collective heads against a wall, we need to find a way to make things work.
The only reason is because staff has not opened applications (last time was March of this year), and when they have done so, they have only taken one noble. March 2008, January 2008, July 2007, and April 2007 (x2). That's only 5 openings for nobles in a year and a half since my Tuluki noble died. Of those, 1 may be still active. And none of the noble PCs who were active when my noble died are now active.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 03, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
I'm inclined to think the matter of romantic relationships is a fairly small factor, though certainly one.
For you, perhaps, but not for everyone else I spoke with. Honestly, it is the number ONE reason why people don't play nobles in Tuluk, and also the reason why I would never want to play one myself, or become one eventually.
I am going to be honest and admit that the number one reason my character doesn't enter the Grey Hunt is purely OOCly based. I don't want to end up lonely like the other Chosens I have observed in the last two years or so.
Lizzie wrote exactly what I meant, it has nothing to do with mudsex, and you can mock me as much as you want, but the fact remain that it is a much bigger issue than some of you may think.
I am convinced of that.
Again, it feels to me that the one Chosen who seemed to really have enjoyed his role in the last year was also, to my personal opinion, part of the "least" noble of Houses in Tuluk.
Edited to add: By relationship, I'm also speaking of friendship. Sure, you can be "friend" with your Chosen, but it'll never be the same and always feel a bit forced to me.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 05:39:46 PM
That's only 5 openings for nobles in a year and a half since my Tuluki noble died. Of those, 1 may be still active. And none of the noble PCs who were active when my noble died are now active.
Looking back over the same time period for Allanak, I'm recalling at least 9 noble PCs entering within that timeframe; plus there were 3 active at the beginning of the timeframe.
It's really not a question of whether or not players want to play Tuluki nobles. Those players who want to are out there, and will apply...if/when applications are opened up. (Not me. Someone else this time ;) )
Quote from: Malken on September 03, 2008, 05:44:49 PM
Honestly, it is the number ONE reason why people don't play nobles in Tuluk, and also the reason why I would never want to play one myself, or become one eventually.
Mehhhhhhhhhh. It is undoubtedly -a- reason why some wouldn't want to, but it is not necessarily the number one reason for every player.
When they opened applications for all the houses in September 2006, and I applied, IIRC there were a lot of applications. I'm fairly confident that if apps were merely opened, good players would apply.
Well another factor is, the staff haven't posted an opening for northern nobles since April 9, and it was for only one noble. There was also a post for northern templars, a Jihaen and a Lirathan, posted in March.
How many *active* nobles and templars do we have currently? Your guess is as good as mine. From what I can see, none. By active I mean something besides logging in, sitting down for 20 minutes, then logging off again.
edited to fix the date of the ad for templars to March, not May.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 05:48:54 PM
Mehhhhhhhhhh. It is undoubtedly -a- reason why some wouldn't want to, but it is not necessarily the number one reason for every player.
When they opened applications for all the houses in September 2006, and I applied, IIRC there were a lot of applications. I'm fairly confident that if apps were merely opened, good players would apply.
Well, I said the number reason for the people I talked to, and you know what sort of people I talk to! ;D
But yes, I don't understand why they don't allow new applications, surely the Staff can see that there's absolutely no Chosen Lords or Ladies around, unless you count one that I only see maybe once every two
weeks for an hour or so..
So what Tuluk needs for -certain- is an active Faithful Lady or two, and at least three Chosen nobles.. Can we all agree on that?
If people need the possibility to mudsex their lessers while playing a character in a position of total uthority in order to have any fun, then I don't think it would attract the sort of players you'd want in those roles. Especially since tuluki nobles are supposed to be more about leading from the front.
It works in Nak since the nobles are supposed to be worthless and dissolute 90% of the time.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 03, 2008, 05:51:30 PM
How many *active* nobles and templars do we have currently? Your guess is as good as mine. From what I can see, none. By active I mean something besides logging in, sitting down for 20 minutes, then logging off again.
If by "active" you mean the number of nobles and templars that play at least 10 hours a week (That's like less than an hour and a half a day), then you are right, the number of active nobles and templars is
0.
If you count in the ones that make an appearance once in a while (I hope that the Staff doesn't count them as active, so unneeded for new applications), then right now I'd say we have -maybe- two Faithful Lords, and one Chosen.. No, I won't eve say
that we have a Chosen right now.
Sorry, I love you all, Tuluki players, but some hard love is needed right now.
Quote from: Malken on September 03, 2008, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2008, 05:48:54 PM
Mehhhhhhhhhh. It is undoubtedly -a- reason why some wouldn't want to, but it is not necessarily the number one reason for every player.
When they opened applications for all the houses in September 2006, and I applied, IIRC there were a lot of applications. I'm fairly confident that if apps were merely opened, good players would apply.
Well, I said the number reason for the people I talked to, and you know what sort of people I talk to! ;D
But yes, I don't understand why they don't allow new applications, surely the Staff can see that there's absolutely no Chosen Lords or Ladies around, unless you count one that I only see maybe once every two
weeks for an hour or so..
So what Tuluk needs for -certain- is an active Faithful Lady or two, and at least three Chosen nobles.. Can we all agree on that?
Yeah you're absolutely right, I'm sure the very limited nature of social interactions does have a role. Romantic and otherwise.
You're right about applications as well, though without more information it's hard to judge that. It's altogether possible that there just hasn't been sufficient interest expressed previously for it to be deemed worth opening applications. I doubt they want to open them if they only get at most one or two responses every time, we also want fairly high standards for who occupies that kind of role.
In short... I don't really know what to do, or even how to assess the situation. ;)
Edit: I was being snarky. I'll refrain.
Really? Because of mudsex? I'm confused but am I the only person who doesn't participate in that on the MUD?
Brandon
Quote from: FuSoYa on September 03, 2008, 06:06:55 PM
Really? Because of mudsex? I'm confused but am I the only person who doesn't participate in that on the MUD?
Brandon
Please don't try to derail this important thread into some sort of mudsexing debate, we all understand that relationships and romance doesn't have to be related to mudsex.
Thank you, now let's try to solve the real problem.
Quote from: FuSoYa on September 03, 2008, 06:06:55 PM
Really? Because of mudsex? I'm confused but am I the only person who doesn't participate in that on the MUD?
Brandon
Oh I guess those three RL hours in the cave was just...snuggling.
<sniff>
marko once said, in a post long ago and far away, "Nobles are really flavor roles, in either city." (Paraphrased.) And I agree with him on that; a certain quantity of public visibility is a reasonable requirement for the role. Otherwise the "flavor" of nobility is missing from the environment, as it is in Tuluk currently.
Note that this is absolutely no statement on the activities or value of any current nobles or templars. Merely a proposition about what the value of the noble role is to the game as a whole. It is also really not fair for the whole burden of public visibility ever to be on one noble, or one templar, in either city-state. That makes the role un-fun and too job-like.
Again, that's part of why having just one or two nobles in a city-state is a poor strategy.
It's been a few years since I've had a PC active enough in politics to know the current state of affairs in the cities, but...
The difference between Allanak and Tuluk, from my perspective, has always been that Allanak has bad guys and Tuluk doesn't. Yeah, sure, Tuluk has bad guys, you just don't know about them, for whatever good that does.
In Allanak, if it's not the gith, then it's the elves, and if it's not the elves, then it's some band of thugs, or some scheming defiler, or some monster from the depths. This is stuff that nobles can get involved with, either just to have something to talk about between marathon mudsex sessions or to be actively involved with. It gives the templars something to do, too, and their meddling and politics gives nobles more stuff to do. To the contrary, the culture of Tuluk seems designed to squash most interesting stuff long before it becomes interesting.
That's why, in my opinion, Tuluk has always had that fluffy, girly, non-Armageddon feel to it, but I've been out of touch for a while, so what do I know?
Assuming it's a problem of interest from players, what do nobles in Allanak do that nobles in Tuluk don't get to?
Quote from: Haze on September 03, 2008, 06:16:10 PM
The difference between Allanak and Tuluk, from my perspective, has always been that Allanak has bad guys and Tuluk doesn't. Yeah, sure, Tuluk has bad guys, you just don't know about them, for whatever good that does.
Under the qynar system, there is potential for a lot of internal conflict between Tuluki nobles, which would logically involve templars as well, and minions on all sides. However, that conflict cannot be realized without a few Tuluki nobles to play against each other, and Hlum nobles cannot partake in it at all, as they cannot acquire governorships.
Quote from: Haze on September 03, 2008, 06:16:10 PMIn Allanak, if it's not the gith, then it's the elves, and if it's not the elves, then it's some band of thugs, or some scheming defiler, or some monster from the depths.
Tuluk has some outside enemies, but the problem is...as you said, no one can talk about them publicly. Tuluk also does not have what's required to actually go out and defeat any mega-defilers who might pop up, as they have no gemmed of their own. Well, OK, they have plenty of NPC and VNPC templars to defeat such a threat...but that's no fun for PCs, is it?
And the Tuluki templarate is a poor setup for internal conflict between PCs. Lirathans and Jihaens do not compete directly against one another as PCs (organizational competition is a different matter). Whereas in Allanak, blue-robe templars are often in direct competition with one another.
So yes, conflict can be a problem in Tuluk and it has been. However, if there were enough Surif nobles, it would be do-able. It HAS been do-able...we conflicted the crap out of each other between Oct 2006 and Feb 2007. I have many fond memories of plots, fights, insults, using bards against each other, hiring sneakies...good stuff.
Quote from: Haze on September 03, 2008, 06:16:10 PM
Assuming it's a problem of interest from players, what do nobles in Allanak do that nobles in Tuluk don't get to?
Allanak nobles get to enter into the game world with a strong organization and structure already in place around them. Usually there will be another PC noble of that house already in the game and/or PC house servants. Even if there aren't, there is a readily identifiable tradition of what that house means and what it does through both documentation and, more importantly, through IC history and the exploits of previous PC's of that house.
This is the main reason I'd never consider playing a Tuluki noble. I need some structure. I don't want to have to build everything myself. But that's just me.
Quote from: Haze on September 03, 2008, 06:16:10 PM
the culture of Tuluk seems designed to squash most interesting stuff long before it becomes interesting.
It's been my experience over the course of several PCs, some Tuluki and some non, that most Tuluki templars seem to see it as their goal to crush any potential PC-to-PC conflict within the city-state that isn't directly generated by them.
Oh, you want to commit licensed crime? Tough, every single one of your targets is working for the templar you're required to buy your license from.
What, you want to spy on Noble/Merchant House X while working for Noble/Merchant House Y? Too bad. The only spies allowed are templarate spies.
What's that, you bought a license on another PC? Oh, whoops, one of the templars told your target all about it beforehand.
This seems to have been my experience over the course of several different templars over the history of my play in Tuluk, and heck, maybe it's been so long since I played there that the current templars aren't like that. But my experience was soured enough that I don't care to go back, and I think other players who have attempted to engage in sneaky-like business in Tuluk may have similar issues with how the sneakiness system is set up.
Quote from: Medena on September 03, 2008, 06:33:29 PM
This is the main reason I'd never consider playing a Tuluki noble. I need some structure. I don't want to have to build everything myself. But that's just me.
However, every one of the Tuluki noble houses has now had at least one PC in it, sometime within the last year and a half. All of the Houses have documentation available to guide the noble player, and it's pretty clear on what the functions of the Houses are and what the "job" of the noble PCs is. Some of the Houses have libraries of books written and collected by the PCs who have gone before, and/or masses of stuff stored up. There are stories that could be told about various PCs, by characters who are alive in game right now. There is a history there now, is what I'm saying.
Irae, it sounds to me like you've either had a huge string of bad luck, or you were doing something wrong. Cause my experience has been much much different.
I haven't ever tried to get a license for anything in Tuluk...but I have had characters who have spied on their own bosses, for other houses, or for seniors in their own clan, or for templars of Tuluk, and one time even for a templar in Allanak. I've had characters who have made deals, and arranged deaths, of other characters, both with and without the blessings of the northern templars. One of my more recent characters spied in Allanak for no less than two northern nobles, one northern templar, and a GMH family member. Some of them knew about the others. At least one of them didn't know a thing. And at no time did I ask for, or receive, the blessing of the templar for any of it. Except in that I was asked by the templar to do a little spying, which of course I was already doing anyway, so it was no big deal to tell the same information to another person for a few more sids :)
Most of my experience playing has been in Tuluk. I have played in Allanak, and most of my characters have spent time in Allanak. I see no absolute monopoly on licensing or plotting in Tuuk, EXCEPT that there simply aren't any other PC templars or nobles to get permission on anything from. So you're currently stuck asking the only active templar, or the only active noble, and right now, none of them are active.
At the time the staff was recruiting a Lirathan, there already was one. So they were looking for a second. Supposedly that second role was filled. But I don't remember seeing a second Lirathan. If there was, it must've happened in the 3 weeks between my northern characters, heh. And it's not been recruited since, and that was back in March, almost 6 months ago.
You want more plotting, more opportunity to get permission to do things, get license to commit crime, then help push for more nobles and templars in Tuluk. Without that, you'll be exactly where we are right now. Wishing we had what we don't have.
Quote from: Irae on September 03, 2008, 06:37:53 PM
Quote from: Haze on September 03, 2008, 06:16:10 PM
the culture of Tuluk seems designed to squash most interesting stuff long before it becomes interesting.
It's been my experience over the course of several PCs, some Tuluki and some non, that most Tuluki templars seem to see it as their goal to crush any potential PC-to-PC conflict within the city-state that isn't directly generated by them.
Oh, you want to commit licensed crime? Tough, every single one of your targets is working for the templar you're required to buy your license from.
What, you want to spy on Noble/Merchant House X while working for Noble/Merchant House Y? Too bad. The only spies allowed are templarate spies.
What's that, you bought a license on another PC? Oh, whoops, one of the templars told your target all about it beforehand.
This seems to have been my experience over the course of several different templars over the history of my play in Tuluk, and heck, maybe it's been so long since I played there that the current templars aren't like that. But my experience was soured enough that I don't care to go back, and I think other players who have attempted to engage in sneaky-like business in Tuluk may have similar issues with how the sneakiness system is set up.
This is I think, one of the most interesting posts in the thread.
My experience with the current group of templars has been overwhelmingly supportive and good. But my sneaky characters were not at odds with the current templars per se. So, I cannot speak to whether or not that happens.
But the system puts a lot of power into the hands of a very few people. And however strong we are as players it's really hard not to find ways to be swayed by what we feel is our ps's interests. (That's why talking on aim is so dangerous. Not because of overt cheating, but unconscious biases.)
So, while I don't know, and I wouldn't think our current group of templars are guilty of this, it's something they should be monitoring themselves for. -You have to let your darlings be endangered. It's how society works. You can kill anyone with a license. And if your job is to sell those licenses you sell them. And you keep your mouth shut. Because even though there are a thousand ways to justify protecting your interests it waters down the playing experience on a whole.
Sorry, I guess this was a derail.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 03, 2008, 07:28:24 PM
So, while I don't know, and I wouldn't think our current group of templars are guilty of this, it's something they should be monitoring themselves for. -You have to let your darlings be endangered. It's how society works. You can kill anyone with a license. And if your job is to sell those licenses you sell them. And you keep your mouth shut. Because even though there are a thousand ways to justify protecting your interests it waters down the playing experience on a whole.
If there was enough political pressure, and PC templars knew that PC nobles were watching them closely for signs of obvious favoritism and gaming the system...see where I'm going? Yet another point in favor of having more PC nobles. Without sufficient PC nobles, the whole system just doesn't work right.
In fact...I am imagining the prospect of a Tuluki noble hiring a PC bard to craft a sardonic song about how Faithful Lady Amosette is too "honorable" to sell a license, such a good girl she is...and how very FOND she is of the proposed target, OH so FOND in some very interesting way...
Srsly, you guys, someone play these roles plz :)
The problem with that scenario is frequently that some players who don't understand the system would target the bard rather than the noble in response, and a lot of PC bards aren't feeling suicidal. It boils down to just not understanding politics in the north, I guess, and a lack of PCs with which to politik with. It is very hard to remain interested in maintaining a visible presence in the northlands when all you can do at the bar is have stilted conversation with people of separate castes who (mostly) don't know how to react to you like a character, rather than a role.
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 03, 2008, 07:49:00 PM
The problem with that scenario is frequently that some players who don't understand the system would target the bard rather than the noble in response, and a lot of PC bards aren't feeling suicidal. It boils down to just not understanding politics in the north, I guess, and a lack of PCs with which to politik with. It is very hard to remain interested in maintaining a visible presence in the northlands when all you can do at the bar is have stilted conversation with people of separate castes who (mostly) don't know how to react to you like a character, rather than a role.
All true.
Lizzie, the problem with your post about not getting licenses, goes against what Tuluk is. From my experience, getting a license is a death sentence. The main reason I havn't apped a sponsored role is because I got an account note a long, long, long time ago.
Dynamic and self-motivating, yes. Subtle, they are not.
That sums it up. I am not subtle enough to be a major player. Or so I think.
What I meant about me never having gotten a license, is that I have never played an actual criminal type character in Tuluk. None of my northern characters have ever murdered anyone, or picked a lock, or even played with the "steal" command. So I've never needed a license. I just wanted to make sure y'all knew that, it was a caveat. It was a "my experience includes things OTHER than actually getting a license" kind of thing.
I think this is an interesting thread. I'm sad I got in on it late, because many of the points I would have made have already been said.
I can definitely sympathize with Malken's thoughts on the Grey Hunt. It is, unless you are very dedicated to a role, AND have very large amounts of time to dedicate to the game, AND are an extremely devoted self-starter who can make plots and ride out some terms of low activity in Tuluk, not a very playable choice to play a Tuluki Chosen.
Ideally, the caste system in Tuluk would segment the population such that Chosen schmooze and hobnob with other Chosen and to some extent the Faithful, and move in those social circles. The tenets of "subtlety", political plotting, sneakyness, etc. that Tuluk thrives on all kind of assume that there will be other players on the same level as you to be subtle with and plot against. If everyone in Tuluk was a Chosen of one of the Houses and in competition with one another, and if there were always 4+ Lirathans and 4+ Jihaens in Tuluk who could compete against one another for influence and favor inside their own Order, I think the system would work great. Unfortunately, instead of a wide horizontal playing field, Tuluk tends to be a narrow ladder, where you have PCs of different stations atop one another rather than beside. Chosen can't really plot against Lirathans or Jihaens that well, they're made to compete and schmooze with other Chosen, and so on. Below, you have commoners and merchants, who aren't anywhere near the same level as the PCs above them, and the conflict in Tuluk is always either non-existent, or so "subtle" and sparse that you have to have eagle eyes and tavern sit the Sanctuary for hours to notice it.
The lack of mudsex options isn't really an issue with Tuluk as I see it. However, the lack of relationship options between Chosen and commoners is. Lots and lots of close relationships are formed on the basis of affection, attraction, lust or love between one or both members. It lets people find reasons to have their characters bond and grow. Chosen in Tuluk need excuses to bond and form relationships with commoners because there's just not that many Chosen. Again, if we had 50 nobles, the Chosen caste could mingle all among itself, but we don't have 50 nobles or even 5. Allanak has rarely had 5 active nobles either in recent years, but in Allanak, the nobles can take concubines, and commoners can be attracted to nobles even if the noble doesn't care. In Tuluk the very CONCEPT of relationships like that is taboo and totally off the table. That means Chosen become very isolated into their own small circles very fast. Lots of players can't handle that. I don't think it's about mudsex, I think it's about having enough people to play with on a constant basis to keep your PC fun.
Gimfalisette's experience as a noble came at the genesis of the new system in Tuluk, when there was a lot of enthusiasm both by players and the staff who implemented it. I think that enthusiasm may have died off. The reason I don't like the qynar/governor system is that it's too easy for PCs to fall back into conflictless little isolated bubbles again. You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)
An interesting solution would be to open up Chosen roles in Tuluk to just about anyone who wants to try them, much like bards are. Chosen would obviously need less power to start off with, but this might populate the system more to make their roles more playable. Barring that, I would want to see several of the Tuluki Chosen Houses become NPC'd, and have maybe 3 Houses active with 2-3 nobles each. (Like Allanak has.) You need to foster conflict, competition, and relations to make the Chosen role work. To do that you need both inter AND intra-House conflict to make the roles exciting. Otherwise, you fall into the same trap, where people aren't really competing directly, and once one noble goes away, the entire structure they had vanishes.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 12:21:11 AM
The reason I don't like the qynar/governor system is that it's too easy for PCs to fall back into conflictless little isolated bubbles again. You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)
I'm in agreement with your analysis of much of the situation, except portions of the above are not reflective of reality. There is much to be found out IC about the system which is potentially generative of lots of conflict. We designed the system specifically to promote direct conflict, but it needs sufficient nobles to run it. The true intricacies of the system are the kind of stuff that only the governors and informed templars would know. That is all I can say.
I've been in a position to know, and I disagree with your disagreement. I know how you think the system may have been designed, but I don't think it works as intended. It needs refinement to work with the player population we have, or else the conflict incentives need to be increased a good bit. The concept of governorships is okay, but not when there are more governorships than there are Chosen.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 01:17:33 AM
I've been in a position to know, and I disagree with your disagreement. I know how you think the system may have been designed, but I don't think it works as intended. It needs refinement to work with the player population we have, or else the conflict incentives need to be increased a good bit. The concept of governorships is okay, but not when there are more governorships than there are Chosen.
Yes, that's what I've been saying :D When we had 5 or 6 Tuluki nobles, it was great. Even 4 would work.
I was thinking more on the lines of 10-15 Chosen instead of 5 or 6. I.E., not every PC Chosen is a governor, governorship is something actually competed for and gained only by more established nobility, who then have to defend it from a pack of have-nots.
Anyone else intrigued by my idea of opening Chosen up to be non-restricted roles a la bards or tribals?
It's an interesting thought, but I think the definition of a Chosen would need some adjustments before many people are willing to put themselves into the role, no matter how easy it is to apply for one. Some screening should still exist, because a glut of poorly played nobles could be just as bad as none at all.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 02:28:59 AM
I was thinking more on the lines of 10-15 Chosen instead of 5 or 6. I.E., not every PC Chosen is a governor, governorship is something actually competed for and gained only by more established nobility, who then have to defend it from a pack of have-nots.
Anyone else intrigued by my idea of opening Chosen up to be non-restricted roles a la bards or tribals?
Hmm.
It certainly has a lot of potential for conflict.
Heck, I'd be willing to see it tried out :D
I think a glut of poorly-played nobles...well...the poorly-played ones would be quickly wiped out by the power players amongst the group, assuming there are a few sneaky minions around capable of doing jobs and templars are open to license purchases. Survival of the fittest and all that.
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 04, 2008, 02:30:59 AM
It's an interesting thought, but I think the definition of a Chosen would need some adjustments before many people are willing to put themselves into the role, no matter how easy it is to apply for one. Some screening should still exist, because a glut of poorly played nobles could be just as bad as none at all.
This. I like the idea, but it would be... yeah, there should still be some sort of screening.
I'd just like to remind everyone how mind numbingly boring it can be to play a noble who has no commoner employees to do dirty work. I speak from experience, having stored a noble PC I quite enjoyed.
Quote from: Mood on September 04, 2008, 03:21:11 AM
I'd just like to remind everyone how mind numbingly boring it can be to play a noble who has no commoner employees to do dirty work. I speak from experience, having stored a noble PC I quite enjoyed.
I heard every time a noble is stored a 'rinthi gets its wings.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 02:28:59 AM
I was thinking more on the lines of 10-15 Chosen instead of 5 or 6. I.E., not every PC Chosen is a governor, governorship is something actually competed for and gained only by more established nobility, who then have to defend it from a pack of have-nots.
Anyone else intrigued by my idea of opening Chosen up to be non-restricted roles a la bards or tribals?
10 - 15 Chosen would be great... if we had the numbers to support that. But as Mood pointed out you need your commoners to do the dirty work and there won't be -nearly- enough of them around to keep even 10 Chosen in business so long as we have 2 major city-states to play in. I played as a Templar in Tuluk before and during it's renaissance and even then I thought the gap between the concept of what Tuluk was meant to be and what it actually was in practice was crushing the playability of the area.
So, at the risk of sounding like those who say "defense nerf" and "tri-class system" a lot in their posts I'll just say that the way Tuluk is setup with it's wide variety of roles at different levels of society means that it needs a large infusion of players to operate even close to the way it was designed to work. This will never happen unless we get a glut of new players or nuke Allanak. Opening up 4 Chosen slots will, at best, allow for a pale imitation of what could be and there are drawbacks to this. Arm only needs one centre of political intrigue and striving unsuccessfully for two just ends up detracting from the game overall. I don't mind where this centre is but seeing as virtually all of the history in Arm is going to be wiped -anyway- with the advent of Arm 2 I think that the Imms, right now, could perform a pretty radical piece of surgery on the current incarnation of Arm and cut out one of the major city-states with some major game event and open up a bunch of Houses to 10+ nobles and 4 templars in the remaining city-state. Then just sit back and watch the level of political intrigue and conflict soar for a sustained period of time. I just don't think that Gimfalisette's proposed solution of opening up a few Chosen slots is the solution to the problem.
Quote from: Ammut on September 04, 2008, 03:59:09 AM
Quote from: Mood on September 04, 2008, 03:21:11 AM
I'd just like to remind everyone how mind numbingly boring it can be to play a noble who
has no commoner employees to do dirty work. I speak from experience, having stored a
noble PC I quite enjoyed.
I heard every time a noble is stored a 'rinthi gets its wings.
Laughed out loud, scared my nephew, it was so loud.
Maybe everyone that see it as a problem should send in an App for a Tuluki noble. They
would have a nice selection of apps and good players to chose from, someone could go
around knocking off PCs, we would have a new set of Tuluki noobles, and everyone would
be happy. ;)
I think I understand Jherlen's idea, the reasoning behind it, and Gimf's concerns. How about only certain governorships be available, with the others being filled by VNPCs? That way, you can still have nobles coming around who haven't been granted a governorship, and there can be conflict in getting them, but you won't need 10-15 nobles to set the scene. You'd only need 3-5.
You would -still- need more active templars btw...this doesn't solve that problem at all.
And I still feel there is some merit in lowering (not eliminating) the strict cultural taboos against relationships between commoners and nobles. Certainly Master Fifi Konviwedu is something other than "just a commoner pet" when she has spent the last 20 years teaching the children of the Winrothol household the fine arts of etiquette, world history, mathematics, reading and writing sirihish, etc. etc...and probably getting paid more than Jimbob Winrothol for her efforts? So if She sees Jimbob in the pantry every afternoon when she's putting the childrens' teacups away, why can't it feel perfectly natural to notice the lovely curve of his chin, the graceful way she moves her fingertips, the way the green rim around his brown eyes seem to brighten when he smiles, how her voice sounds like a purring quirri...
Why shouldn't they eventually realize that they are both human beings with human needs? They ARE humans. And they are humans who are constantly hanging out with each other, because that is part of their jobs, and neither of them are slaves (which are subhuman), and both of them are of extremely refined upbringing. In fact, it's entirely possible that the Konviwedu Master is more educated, more refined, and knows more about Tuluk subtlety than the noble does. Not probably, but definitely possible. So why not allow them the opportunity to form a romantic interests in each other? As long as she isn't bearing his bastard children, why should anyone care? She is a woman of privilege in Tuluk society. That is all that -should- matter. Circle Bard Family members, Greater Merchant House family members who are genuine born raised and inked Tuluk citizens..should be fair game for the nobility of Tuluk to pick as concubines, consorts, non-sexual companions, romantic interests, dinner dates, and even just someone to touch toes with when they lay on the couch, platonically, and watch the world go by.
I have never played Tuluki Nobility. And I've only seen more then one Tuluki noble active for a bout 15 minutes total,
I don't understand the qynar system at all.
My -impression- was (during the rare fifteen moments that new nobles were showing up) was that the governorship was like a doorprize that people got for showing up. That seemed suboptimal to me. But that's said without real understanding of what's going on.
I think you guys are missing the whole OOC point of the sex/relationship taboo. A taboo isn't a taboo because nobody does it. It's a taboo because most people don't do it and consider it wrong. Most. It wouldn't be taboo if nobody did it.
Break some rules.
Sure, everything you were ever taught says it's wrong, but it feels so right! It'll be fine, it'll just be our dirty little secret. Oh, and you're going to disappear if anyone so much as smirks within twenty cords of me.
As for close relationships. Some people feel closer to their pets than to people. My uncle recently pointed out he likes his cats better than people. I asked him if a cat and a kid were drowning who would he save. He said the cat. ( I don't necessarily believe him) But he wouldn't have sex with his cats.
I think you can have very close and complicated relationships that are non-sexual.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 04, 2008, 09:45:29 AM
As for close relationships. Some people feel closer to their pets than to people. My uncle recently pointed out he likes his cats better than people. I asked him if a cat and a kid were drowning who would he save. He said the cat. ( I don't necessarily believe him) But he wouldn't have sex with his cats.
I think you can have very close and complicated relationships that are non-sexual.
This is all nice and true, but the fact remains that we have no Chosens to play with, and apparently not many are app'ing for them, so the role is just not interesting for a huge majority of the playerbase.
I have nothing against suggestions like yours and Gimfalisette's, but this is just like saying, "No, no, people, the role -can- be interesting, you just don't know how to play it!"
So obviously a huge majority of us don't know/don't want to play the role as it is right now, and that's why I think it should be changed.
I like everything that Jherlen said.
And Marauder Moe, it's not as simple as you make it sound, romantic relationships with a commoner is forbidden both OOCly and ICly. (If I'm wrong about that then I'll gladly accept it, but as far as I'm concerned, this is both
an IC and OOC rule.)
Wha? How the heck can it be an OOC rule?
EDIT: Well, I suppose it could be on the same level as elves not being allowed to ride.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 04, 2008, 11:03:19 AM
Wha? How the heck can it be an OOC rule?
EDIT: Well, I suppose it could be on the same level as elves not being allowed to ride.
Yes, it's also an OOC rule. When I played Tuluki nobility, we were informed that it was one of those rules that if we broke it, our character just would be stored for us. I doubt that's changed in the interim.
Lame. :(
Here I was starting to dream of being a Chosen Lady's secret love pet...
I thought I'd chime in here, for old times sake. Note, I haven't played in quite some time, and don't speak for the current staff in any way, shape or form. They could very well have set things up differently, and much could have changed since I last looked at it. That said:
Here are a few pieces of feedback, based on my reading of this thread:
1) Mudsex: Mudsex, in my opinion, shouldn't be an issue. If it really is an honest to god reason why people aren't playing nobles...well, I feel sorry for those folks. Not because I'm judging them (god knows: those in glass houses, etc. etc.), but because I feel they're limiting their options as far as roles go, and not creating creative solutions to solve problems.
A basic truth of Armageddon is that "conflict" creates "interest". "Conflict" can be external: a gith attacking you while you mine for sid; A templar shaking you down while you try to smuggle spice across the city. It can be grand: two city states fighting; one race deciding another race doesn't have the right to exist any more. But conflict can also be internal and small: the internal struggle that happens when a spy is asked to betray her employers; or the unrequited love that two star-crossed lovers feel who can never, ever be together.
I mean: whole books and stories have been written about just that small thing right there. I point to Chaucer as an example: the whole notion of Courtly Love could be something which could possibly be explored in Tuluk (perhaps not 100% exactly - but some variant). The Babylon 5 geek in me also might cite the relationship between Delenn and her assistant Lennier as a very "Tuluki" romance between two members of castes who can't be together. The whole idea of becoming a "patron" could be exploited as a sort of "romantic" connection between two members of a caste. Remember that Tuluk is a city of subtlety, and in that city there are more sophisticated ways of saying "I love you" than boning your aide in the stables.
Any of those ideas may be a stretch, and would need to be developed further, but that's what the fun of playing is. If everything was laid out and documented for us...why play a game at all?
2) The age-old "One City Is Better Than Two" argument. I never liked hearing folks say things like: "I hate playing in Allanak." or "I hate playing in Tuluk."
The truth is, you
should be saying: "I love playing Armageddon". The cultures and situations created by different areas of the Game are all part of "Armageddon" or the world of Zalanthas. The issue shouldn't be: "I hate playing in City X". The issue should be: "What sort of character concept would make City X fun for me?" In my opinion, people should always be pushing themselves in terms of interesting character concepts. I would avoid playing "filler" PCs in one city-state over another. Instead, I would simply play full on PCs in one city-state or another. Try and ignore the things that "bother" you about a city, and try and find - and encourage - the things you really enjoy.
As an example: I once hated playing in Tuluk. Seriously. Allanak was the definitive place that defined "Armageddon" to me. When I saw the opportunity, I tried to change Tuluk into a place that I would want to play. The jury may still be out on how successful that was - but I was pleased with the results at the time.
3) Too many leaders. I used to believe the notion that having too many nobles/templars would dilute the playerbase and make the game worse on the whole. I think now I would tend to believe that this is less of an issue than people make it out to be. I think having more leaders, more spread out, might be better for generating more diverse plotlines, and recruiting more newbies to join in the fun.
I think the struggle here shouldn't be in worrying about the lack of a playerbase, but rather encouraging PC leaders to make plotlines with the resources they have available. Good leaders will always attract players.
That said, it's very easy for me to say that, not having played a PC noble/Templar in a while.
3) Documentation: I've heard several people state that one reason that people may not play in Tuluk is because they don't understand. I encourage people, in those instances, to assist the staff and write up any documentation you may feel is missing, or that could help clear up something.
4) The Qynar System & Conflict:Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 12:21:11 AM
You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)
This is
exactly the system that was set up with Governances. Nobles
can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands. There are (or were), in fact, rules on how to do it.
I can't really make a statement on how this is implemented now, not having been in the game for over a year now (or more?). However, I can make a statement on the
intent, when I came up with the whole thing. Under the idealized setting in my mind, Nobles would all be struggling against one another, forging alliances and marriages or vying for the resources and power to off one another and gain control over the other nobles lands. Furthermore, the lands themselves were given a certain amount of weight in terms of resources they generated, and power over other lands. Everything is tied together: for example you might control a land which generates slaves, but your biggest enemy might control your water supply.
Governors were given open ended rules on what they could do with their lands. This allowed PCs to choose what they wanted to do. Governor A might cut off the water supply to Governor B's slave-generating lands. Unchecked, this could screw Governor B's livelihood. Governor B forges an alliance with Governor C, who bans all of Governor A's employees and patrons from visiting merchants in their lands. Shortly thereafter, for grins, Governor C hires an assassin to attempt to assassinate and steal the rights to Governor B's slave-generating lands. The cycle continues. Welcome to Armageddon.
It's a cool system, and a
lot of really hard work went into making the noble houses of Tuluk all very unique and interesting. I remember, each time I read the documentation for a new one, I thought to myself: "Wow, I want to play one of
those guys". "Those guys" were
awesome, and there were
lots of them.
Much of the system was left open and undefined so that PCs could bumble around, make mistakes, and generally screw shit up. Yes: I was, secretly, kind of hoping the PCs would throw the Tuluki economy out of whack causing massive starvation and famine to wreak havoc across the city-state. That wasn't the
actual goal, but it would have been entertaining and a learning experience for everyone.
The whole thing isn't without it's flaws though. It does have some requirements for smooth running:
1) An active playerbase. At all levels. Nobles and Templars are required to do the scheming, while peons are required to do a lot of the dirty work. That said - Tuluk is not Allanak, and nobles in Tuluk can get their hands dirty. Also note that "Active" doesn't have to mean "large". "Large" is good - more players is always more fun, but a small core group of regular players can get a lot accomplished, and germinate the seeds for a popular swing to a new city-state.
2) Active staff. Above all else, Governors were intended to be Lawmakers. Staff involvement is needed in making sure the laws actually happen, and are enforced (though a lot of that responsibility can fall to the PC Templars). Also, staff are needed to
3) Creative and active nobles. Coming up with schemes and "things to do" should be as easy as deciding "I want that land for myself". It's coming up with the "how" that's the interesting part, as well as the gumption to go after it in the first place. If nobles don't log in, or are unmotivated to action (they should be - we put very tangible rewards for conflict) then, as someone posted above: nothing happens.
Ideally, the whole thing runs smooth and almost autonomously with 6 nobles (preferably from 6 different houses, but doubling up can be cool), and a couple of Templars. The most important ingreedient, though, is
active nobles. Without a large group of active nobles (between 4-6), the whole thing sort of falls apart. It's like playing paintball by yourself. With nobody around to shoot at, things get really dull, quickly. With the right mixture of active nobles and players, RP in Tuluk should be a little like playing "Smear the Queer" with velvet gloves and nice words.
If that's not happening, my guess is that one (or more) of those things isn't really happening. From reading this thread, it sounds like it may be that there aren't enough active PC nobles. Either PCs are MIA, or they've deceased/retired. The whole thing was designed to have 6 active PC nobles. If there aren't 6 active PC nobles, then the original intent behind the whole system is kind of lost, and you can't really say it "doesn't work". It's like saying the copier doesn't work, when there isn't enough paper in it for it to function in the first place.
I suggest some proactive folks jam some more paper into the copier, and let it spin up on 'high' for a while. App for more nobles, and request the staff keep on people that might be going MIA.
All of that said, with this Caveat: I have no idea what the current Staff have planned, are planning, or have changed. It could be that they don't want to maintain a system like this and would rather spend resources getting 2.Arm up and running. Or maybe they're just busy with other things. Or maybe they're very eager to get things cooking up in Tuluk, and just haven't had the opportunity, or are waiting for something "special". In any case: without knowing what's going on Upstairs, really, this post serves no other purpose than to maybe shed some light on the intentions and goals behind the original change (almost two years ago, now), and how things could move forward.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 04, 2008, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 04, 2008, 11:03:19 AM
Wha? How the heck can it be an OOC rule?
EDIT: Well, I suppose it could be on the same level as elves not being allowed to ride.
Yes, it's also an OOC rule. When I played Tuluki nobility, we were informed that it was one of those rules that if we broke it, our character just would be stored for us. I doubt that's changed in the interim.
That, er, doesn't seem quite right.
I understand heavily,
heavily discouraging it on an OOC level, because if every noble was the exception to the rule, there would be no rule. But to outright forbid it seems a bit heavy-handed. Once in a long while, there
must be a noble who isn't quite strong enough to resist that cross-caste taboo love affair, and I'd think emailing the Tuluki Nobility staff ahead of time and saying, "Look, I've been RPing for a while now that my noble has strong enough emotions and a weak enough will to break the taboo" would be enough for them to say, "Okay, but if it's found out, prepare for the consequences."
Quote from: Tlaloc on September 04, 2008, 03:21:40 PMA basic truth of Armageddon is that "conflict" creates "interest". "Conflict" can be external: a gith attacking you while you mine for sid; A templar shaking you down while you try to smuggle spice across the city. It can be grand: two city states fighting; one race deciding another race doesn't have the right to exist any more. But conflict can also be internal and small: the internal struggle that happens when a spy is asked to betray her employers; or the unrequited love that two star-crossed lovers feel who can never, ever be together.
I mean: whole books and stories have been written about just that small thing right there. I point to Chaucer as an example: the whole notion of Courtly Love could be something which could possibly be explored in Tuluk (perhaps not 100% exactly - but some variant). The Babylon 5 geek in me also might cite the relationship between Delenn and her assistant Lennier as a very "Tuluki" romance between two members of castes who can't be together. The whole idea of becoming a "patron" could be exploited as a sort of "romantic" connection between two members of a caste. Remember that Tuluk is a city of subtlety, and in that city there are more sophisticated ways of saying "I love you" than boning your aide in the stables.
However, this is
also true, and could create a whole different and unique sort of situation.
On the more general topic at hand, if I had more time, I'd gladly,
gladly apply for a Tuluki Faithful or Chosen, even with the current restrictions.
My only request would be that enough roles be opened up that there can be a healthy amount of high-society conflict as well as inter-caste conflict.
Of course, I
don't have time now, but maybe in a few months?
Quote from: Tlaloc on September 04, 2008, 03:21:40 PM
Ideally, the whole thing runs smooth and almost autonomously with 6 nobles (preferably from 6 different houses, but doubling up can be cool), and a couple of Templars. The most important ingreedient, though, is active nobles. Without a large group of active nobles (between 4-6), the whole thing sort of falls apart. It's like playing paintball by yourself. With nobody around to shoot at, things get really dull, quickly. With the right mixture of active nobles and players, RP in Tuluk should be a little like playing "Smear the Queer" with velvet gloves and nice words.
If that's not happening, my guess is that one (or more) of those things isn't really happening. From reading this thread, it sounds like it may be that there aren't enough active PC nobles. Either PCs are MIA, or they've deceased/retired. The whole thing was designed to have 6 active PC nobles. If there aren't 6 active PC nobles, then the original intent behind the whole system is kind of lost, and you can't really say it "doesn't work". It's like saying the copier doesn't work, when there isn't enough paper in it for it to function in the first place.
Well, that's the reason this post was made, we have 0 active nobles right now, and we had maybe one active in the last year or so (Having played in Tuluk 90% of the time in the last year, I can tell you all of the Chosen nobles who have been around, most of them didn't last longer than
a month or so, and there were only a few numbers of them.. Maybe two or three tops.)
By active noble, I don't count the Hlum one, because, like it was said somewhere in this thread, they don't affect the qynar system.
--- The only solution I see to this is for the Staff to suddenly announce -5- new openings for nobles in Tuluk and not allow any of them in before the five have been chosen. ---
Why do I say that? Because I think that if you keep allowing only one at a time, then it'll just be like previous months, a Chosen will pop in, try to get things moving, then realize that he or she is alone,
sit in the Sanctuary forever looking for partisans, then just get bored and either stop logging in (Making it sound like we actually have Chosens on paper, but not in game), or just retire until the next one comes in
and repeat the whole process..
I think that's a great idea, actually (If I may praise my own ideas), announce that you have openings for 4-5 nobles, take a whole month to select them, they don't allow them in until they've all been chosen and then throw
them into the Tuluki arena and let's see what happens.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on September 04, 2008, 03:32:42 PM
That, er, doesn't seem quite right.
I understand heavily, heavily discouraging it on an OOC level, because if every noble was the exception to the rule, there would be no rule. But to outright forbid it seems a bit heavy-handed. Once in a long while, there must be a noble who isn't quite strong enough to resist that cross-caste taboo love affair, and I'd think emailing the Tuluki Nobility staff ahead of time and saying, "Look, I've been RPing for a while now that my noble has strong enough emotions and a weak enough will to break the taboo" would be enough for them to say, "Okay, but if it's found out, prepare for the consequences."
I think they were tired of previous nobles breaking the rule, honestly. Thus, the OOC rule on top of it to really try to get players focused on making -plot- stuff happen.
Also, Tlaloc, thank you for posting. I'm a huge, huge fan of the system that you (with us players helping ;) ) created in the fall of 2006. And I dearly want to see it played to its potential.
Maybe I'm just missing something here, but on the Armageddon website it says Tuluki Nobles are OPEN. No, there isn't currently any staff REQUESTS for Tuluki nobles, but go ahead and send in an app! If they just plain don't want anyone(I don't see why they'd say no with the current non-existantce of them), they'll eventually email you back saying we have no interst. So... SEND IN YOUR APPS! And when you do ask them to post a call for Tuluki nobles. Lots. Six I think is what Tlaloc said was good. More would be fun as well, but when you send in your app, request that they POST about needing nobles. Not everyone reads every single thread and may not know that there is such a huge need. ~shrugs~
I am going to go one step further and add that I also think that Governors should always be given to PCs only, no more virtual anything, if there isn't any Chosen Nobles to
govern the qynar, then it should go one step down and allow an Hlum noble to control part of it, THEN if there's not enough Hlum nobles, you go down one more step
and you allow trusted servants of the Faithfuls to do it, at this point, it would be left for the Faithfuls to decided which citizen of Tuluk would be given governorship, that way
the system would always be on constant motion and working.
It could be explained that if a House fails to generate a decent Governor that year, or if that Governor wasn't public enough (The whole Tuluki nobles being chummy with the commoners
being an important part of the culture) then they just lose face and the governorship passes to someone else.
I'd gladly app a Chosen if the roles ever open up again myself. I find any leadership role fun for the most part.
I do agree with Gimf for the most of it. The -potential- is there to have a fantastic political scene, and have plenty for the PC's in the area to do under said Chosen Lords and Ladies. However, it hasn't been anywhere close to what it was in the time frame Gim gave. The last character I had that spent a decent amount of time in Tuluk saw 1 PC Templar and didn't even -hear- a Chosen's name, let alone actually see one.
Quote from: tortall on September 04, 2008, 03:50:23 PM
No, there isn't currently any staff REQUESTS for Tuluki nobles, but go ahead and send in an app!
Y'all, I agree with tortall. Go throw in some apps. If nothing else, perhaps it will garner some attention to the issue and an open call for apps.
And again, anyone wanting help with questions like: "Am I ready to play a Tuluki noble? If not, how do I get ready?" is welcome to PM me for advice.
Quote from: Malken on September 04, 2008, 03:51:13 PM
I am going to go one step further and add that I also think that Governors should always be given to PCs only, no more virtual anything, if there isn't any Chosen Nobles to
govern the qynar, then it should go one step down and allow an Hlum noble to control part of it, THEN if there's not enough Hlum nobles, you go down one more step
and you allow trusted servants of the Faithfuls to do it, at this point, it would be left for the Faithfuls to decided which citizen of Tuluk would be given governorship, that way
the system would always be on constant motion and working.
I heartily endorse the idea of Hlum being given chances to govern territories.
Good to see you posting, Tlaloc, it was informative to hear your thoughts. Lemme reply...
Quote1) Mudsex:
4) The Qynar System & Conflict:
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 12:21:11 AM
You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)
This is exactly the system that was set up with Governances. Nobles can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands. There are (or were), in fact, rules on how to do it.
I can't really make a statement on how this is implemented now, not having been in the game for over a year now (or more?). However, I can make a statement on the intent, when I came up with the whole thing. Under the idealized setting in my mind, Nobles would all be struggling against one another, forging alliances and marriages or vying for the resources and power to off one another and gain control over the other nobles lands. Furthermore, the lands themselves were given a certain amount of weight in terms of resources they generated, and power over other lands. Everything is tied together: for example you might control a land which generates slaves, but your biggest enemy might control your water supply.
I'm aware that was the intent of the system, and that this was supposed to be possible, I just don't think it has been realized in practice. I'm skeptical that it ever could take place without making things far less virtual and having several staff assigned to just this system in Tuluk alone. It seems like without a critical mass of nobility, the whole thing falls apart, as you've said. Even if there is the critical mass and things are running on all cylinders, I still feel like just becoming a governor should be more of an end goal than a gimme at the outset. Once you have your qynar or two, what then? Is the system designed to really let one or two nobles gobble up all the other qynar and become Ruler Of All Tuluk (Except Not Really Because That's Utep And The Templars?) That seems to be the implied objective, but I don't think the design allows it, nor is it even necessarily desireable for playability.
To me it basically seems to want to be like a feudal system, which is cool. The problem is, Tuluk is pretty much already an imperial government, with a very very strong central power. Typically in feudal governments the central authority was weaker and depended on the feudal lords for much of its power. Tuluk and Allanak's templarates both have a supreme monopoly and the nobility are dependent on them for power, not vice versa. To make truly Tuluk into the sort of warring fiefdoms this seems to be, it seems like you'd need to remove the central glue and give the power to the Chosen, not the Faithful.
Now if there was no Legion, and Winrothol, Tenneshi, Lyskae et al had their own private armies and each controlled and gave orders to their blooded members of the Faithful, THAT would be cool. But I'm probably spinning off into the realm of the totally infeasible.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 04:27:29 PM
Even if there is the critical mass and things are running on all cylinders, I still feel like just becoming a governor should be more of an end goal than a gimme at the outset. Once you have your qynar or two, what then? Is the system designed to really let one or two nobles gobble up all the other qynar and become Ruler Of All Tuluk (Except Not Really Because That's Utep and the Templars?) That seems to be the implied objective, but I don't think the design allows it, nor is it even necessarily desireable for playability.
To me it basically seems like a feudal system, which is cool. The problem is, Tuluk is pretty much already an imperial government, with a very very strong central power. Typically in feudal governments the central authority was weaker and depended on the feudal lords for much of its power. Tuluk and Allanak's templarates both have a supreme monopoly and the nobility are dependent on them for power, not vice versa. To make truly Tuluk into the sort of warring fiefdoms this seems to be, it seems like you'd need to remove the central glue and give the power to the Chosen, not the Faithful.
Now if there was no Legion, and Winrothol, Tenneshi, Lyskae et al had their own private armies and each controlled and gave orders to their blooded members of the Faithful, THAT would be cool. But I'm probably spinning off into the realm of the totally infeasible.
With possession of up to 2 qynar, a Chosen Governor is no better or worse than any of his/her peers of the same rank, regardless of whether or not they have a governorship. Status rises with each possession after 2. So there is no "gimme" from the outset. Because having 1 or 2 qynar is effectively the same as having none.
In theory, yes, one noble could possess all the qynar that are given to PCs to govern. (There are additional qynar which will always be VNPC holdings also, so no PC could ever become "ruler of all." Just "ruler of holy crap a lot.")
In Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.
And the power grab by the Chosen which resulted in the qynar system was truly a power grab. The Chosen took not only "title" to the qynar, they also took hold of the money streams from those qynar. Yes, most of it is still passed to the templarate for administrative purposes, but first it passes through the Chosen.
Or at least, that is what I was given to understand about how things work, at the time of the system's implementation.
It sounds like a cool system. Somebody go app some Tuluki nobles. I'd do it but ... uhm, I really am kinda involved right now. And I have an OOC goal to deal with, so I'm going to be involved for some time.
Every time I get a sponsored role, my life falls into some sort of crisis. It's like my sponsored roles are hexed in some way.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 04, 2008, 04:36:31 PMWith possession of up to 2 qynar, a Chosen Governor is no better or worse than any of his/her peers of the same rank, regardless of whether or not they have a governorship. Status rises with each possession after 2. So there is no "gimme" from the outset. Because having 1 or 2 qynar is effectively the same as having none.
Right, but you still start off with lands to govern without proving yourself rather than having to win them. In my mind that's starting a step too high. I'd rather see competition over who gets to become governors to begin with.
QuoteIn Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.
I am pretty sure the Lirathan Order will always be more powerful than the Chosen because of all their duties administrating and setting policy for the city, and the Jihaen order will always be more powerful because they control the army and enforce the laws. The Chosen can make whatever laws they please...... but it's up to the templarate to enforce them. Not having the power of enforcement themselves makes them dependent. And I don't think the Legion would tolerate the Chosen making their own private armies of thugs to enforce laws, or at least it hasn't been done yet. So the Chosen may have "legal" authority, but in Zalanthas, laws don't mean much, and they may have money, but the templarate has the swords and the Jihaen judo masters to take it back if it really wanted.
I organized and expounded on some of the Tuluk documentation that's available to the public more than a few months ago, so I figured I'd chime in on this part at least.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 05:04:43 PM
Right, but you still start off with lands to govern without proving yourself rather than having to win them. In my mind that's starting a step too high. I'd rather see competition over who gets to become governors to begin with.
Actually, qynar/striasiri are not granted arbitrarily. There is a process to acquiring even the first one that IS subject to much conflict and frequently has been subject to much conflict.
Chosen do not start off with qynar and striasiri already granted.
QuoteIn Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.
Quote
I am pretty sure the Lirathan Order will always be more powerful than the Chosen because of all their duties administrating and setting policy for the city, and the Jihaen order will always be more powerful because they control the army and enforce the laws. The Chosen can make whatever laws they please...... but it's up to the templarate to enforce them. Not having the power of enforcement themselves makes them dependent. And I don't think the Legion would tolerate the Chosen making their own private armies of thugs to enforce laws, or at least it hasn't been done yet. So the Chosen may have "legal" authority, but in Zalanthas, laws don't mean much, and they may have money, but the templarate has the swords and the Jihaen judo masters to take it back if it really wanted.
The Chosen make laws for their Qynar and Striasiri and it is up to the Chosen to enforce those laws, not the Templarate.
Quote from: Boggis on September 04, 2008, 05:44:05 AM
Arm only needs one centre of political intrigue and striving unsuccessfully for two just ends up detracting from the game overall. I don't mind where this centre is but seeing as virtually all of the history in Arm is going to be wiped -anyway- with the advent of Arm 2 I think that the Imms, right now, could perform a pretty radical piece of surgery on the current incarnation of Arm and cut out one of the major city-states with some major game event and open up a bunch of Houses to 10+ nobles and 4 templars in the remaining city-state. Then just sit back and watch the level of political intrigue and conflict soar for a sustained period of time. I just don't think that Gimfalisette's proposed solution of opening up a few Chosen slots is the solution to the problem.
I think that's a great idea. It'd be interesting, just before the end, to see what it would be like with everyone funneled into roughly the same area. It would give us a chance to see if it really added to or detracted from the surrounding RP. It would be a nice little experiment, in any case.
Quote from: Nyr on September 04, 2008, 05:12:38 PM
QuoteIn Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.
Quote
I am pretty sure the Lirathan Order will always be more powerful than the Chosen because of all their duties administrating and setting policy for the city, and the Jihaen order will always be more powerful because they control the army and enforce the laws. The Chosen can make whatever laws they please...... but it's up to the templarate to enforce them. Not having the power of enforcement themselves makes them dependent. And I don't think the Legion would tolerate the Chosen making their own private armies of thugs to enforce laws, or at least it hasn't been done yet. So the Chosen may have "legal" authority, but in Zalanthas, laws don't mean much, and they may have money, but the templarate has the swords and the Jihaen judo masters to take it back if it really wanted.
The Chosen make laws for their Qynar and Striasiri and it is up to the Chosen to enforce those laws, not the Templarate.
Not to mention...the crisis of fall 2006 was all about money. It's important to never discount money as the big factor in power. Without money, the Jihaens lose their army. Without the backing of the Jihaens, the Lirathans are physically vulnerable. And contrary to appearances, the Jihaens and Lirathans are not necessarily a united front.
Just to chime in again on some things that came up:
1) Originally (Nyr's post makes me feel things are different now), Northern nobles started out as governors. The thinking behind this was to give nobles something "to do" right out of the box, much like Templars have duties right out of the box. In the same vein that you don't make Templars go RP their way through the Templar Academy (even though it could be cool), Governors of the Qynar weren't to be required to go through the original motions of grasping for power. They were already assumed to have been given the titles by their Houses for whatever IC reason could be justified. If all the Qynar/Striasiri were spoken for, THEN the PCs may have to try and figure something out on their own.
In short: PCs wouldn't be applying for "Noble" positions. They'd be applying for "Governor" positions. The difference in wording is subtle, but the term "noble" can imply a foppish character with nothing to do but gossip and worry about how to mudsex his aide. "Governor" implies a PC with strict duties and responsibilities from the beginning. That isn't to say that a governor
can't be a foppish character with nothing to do but gossip and worry about how to mudsex his aide, but the idea would be that those characteristics become "Flavor" for the true "Role": that of a Governor of Tuluk. This is like how you can have flaming tranny Templars (and there have been a couple). They might be flaming trannies - but they're still Templars, first and foremost and they start the game as full on "Templars".
2) Originally, Hlum nobles were also to get a piece of the Qynar/Striasiri cake. These lands would be "gifted" to the newly decorated Hlum, typically from one or more of the other nobles who were governing (a gift from the Sun King). This would create an IC justification for Surif nobles to hate the pants out of the Hlum (beyond being commoner scum who thinks he's a noble), and would probably scare the ever living bejesus out of the Hlum. This would create interesting tensions, as a Hlum who manages to get Tenneshi lands "gifted" to him might suddenly have a friend in Winrothol, but find himself at the mercy of Tenneshi and Dasari nobles who are now vying to take his lands. The Winrothol "friend" may, or may not, be entirelly altruistic, either.
3)
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 04:27:29 PM
To me it basically seems to want to be like a feudal system, which is cool. The problem is, Tuluk is pretty much already an imperial government, with a very very strong central power. Typically in feudal governments the central authority was weaker and depended on the feudal lords for much of its power. Tuluk and Allanak's templarates both have a supreme monopoly and the nobility are dependent on them for power, not vice versa. To make truly Tuluk into the sort of warring fiefdoms this seems to be, it seems like you'd need to remove the central glue and give the power to the Chosen, not the Faithful.
It is, pretty much, a feudal system. Afterall: Muk Utep is a King, right? My thinking behind Tuluk (at the time - again, things may be different now) was, in fact, to decentralize much of the City-State's military. As Nyr posted, much of the law-enforcement withiin a Qynar/Striasiri falls to the noble's House. The way I always envisioned the noble houses of Tuluk was kind of like the Landsraad in the Dune series (in fact, the struggle for spice on Arrakis is an almost perfect example of how the system should work). All these noble houses actually
would have standing armies of their own (of a sort), and the ability to at least flex their muscle somehow in a local fashion. I thought the idea that two noble Houses could go to war on one another was a neat one - and one I wouldn't have minded seeing get played out in Tuluk (either through the use of thieves and assassins or full on combat in the streets or wilderness).
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 04:27:29 PM
Once you have your qynar or two, what then? Is the system designed to really let one or two nobles gobble up all the other qynar and become Ruler Of All Tuluk (Except Not Really Because That's Utep And The Templars?) That seems to be the implied objective, but I don't think the design allows it, nor is it even necessarily desireable for playability.
Yes, actually. This was part of the exact thinking behind this. On the off chance that one noble somehow managed to get their hands on all the titles, they could then sit back and be Ruler Of All Tuluk. Part of the philosophy behind this was something that Halaster once said: no PC can ever really fuck up the game so much that the Staff can't fix it. If a PC Noble managed to get to the point where they were basically In Charge of Tuluk, then by all means Rule, dude, Rule. Of course, that guy would have some problems: at least 5 other nobles/houses would be gunning for him (now on a unified front - and that's not counting NPCs) - and those are just the enemies the noble
knows about.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 04:27:29 PM
Now if there was no Legion, and Winrothol, Tenneshi, Lyskae et al had their own private armies and each controlled and gave orders to their blooded members of the Faithful, THAT would be cool. But I'm probably spinning off into the realm of the totally infeasible.
That's a really cool idea, imo. Probably not feasable with the way things are set up - but still a really neat idea. Another one of the concepts from way back when was that the Templarate and the Militia
were bound by the laws made up by the Governors of the area. So, yes, if my Noble decides that nobody can wear shoes in the Red Sun Commons, then the Militia would be dispatched to assist with checking to make sure people leave their shoes at the gates of the Commons. That said: this could seriously piss off the Templars, having to deal with frivolous laws, so a wise noble would need to show some sort of prudence and be selective about their requests to the Templarate.
Unwise nobles might find their lands "Gifted" to a Hlum, or may simply forget to wake up one morning.
Again - just a few thoughts.
The potential to govern a qynar or striasiri would add SO MUCH that is missing to the Hlum role.
I strongly feel the staff should reconsider the decision to bar them from such.
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 04, 2008, 07:52:42 PM
The potential to govern a qynar or striasiri would add SO MUCH that is missing to the Hlum role.
I strongly feel the staff should reconsider the decision to bar them from such.
Not allowing Hlum nobility to govern is anti-conflict...allowing them to govern would be pro-conflict. Conflict drives plots. Plots are good for the game. Therefore, the only conclusion is that denying them governance is bad for the game.
To put it most strongly ;)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 04, 2008, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 04, 2008, 07:52:42 PM
The potential to govern a qynar or striasiri would add SO MUCH that is missing to the Hlum role.
I strongly feel the staff should reconsider the decision to bar them from such.
Not allowing Hlum nobility to govern is anti-conflict...allowing them to govern would be pro-conflict. Conflict drives plots. Plots are good for the game. Therefore, the only conclusion is that denying them governance is bad for the game.
To put it most strongly ;)
It might be contested but I think the fact that Hlum nobles can't have children that benefit from their actions is kind of unrealistic. Or well. Put it this way. In a way, most of human society is bent in a way to provide for current and future children. We go to college to get good jobs to support and raise a good family to make a good life for our offspring. It's genetic, we want our offspring to thrive and pass on our genetics. The fact that Hlum's really can't pass on their genetics and privileges to their children kind of lessens it IMO. Hlums should be definitely lesser nobles, less rights and lower the other kind(can't remember name).
I personally feel that giving Hlums anything new, is giving *commoners* entitlements that previously only belonged to the nobility. Because, Sun King's blessing or not, Hlums are still *from* the commoner caste. Their blood is not noble blood, and their nobility can't be inherited. When they die, their children will still be the -same- commoners that they were when they were born, and that they had been their entire lives. Not bastard nobles - just plain ordinary commoners.
It is for that reason that I feel Hlums should not be "gifted" city land as a benefit of being a Hlum. If a particular Hlum has earned a gift as a result of some kind of extraordinary act on behalf of the Ivory, then they would get it, just like any commoner might some day hope to acquire property as the result of some kind of extraordinary act on behalf of the Ivory.
I -DO- however still feel, even more strongly than before in light of all this information from Nyr and Tlaloc, that the nobility of Tuluk should absolutely positively be allowed to take concubines, form romantic and/or close personal relationships of a sexual OR platonic nature...among the upper eschelons of commoner society. That is, the Bard Circle family members, Greater Merchant House family members, and the Hlum commoner nobility.
Forget about mudsex. Assume everyone is fading, and mudsex isn't an issue. Because it really isn't. The issue is creating characters who have more to them than just politics, diplomacy, and "good breeding." Relationships are the fundamental point of humanity. We live to form them, and if conflicts and "alliances" are the only options, then we are missing a HUGE part of our social structure and we lose interest in the role.
Amen.
I don't believe the issue is mudsex, which is a completely ooc thing. I believe the problem is sex. The IC sex. If they relaxed the rule, the world wouldn't end. Maybe more people would play nobles. But, I do think something would be lost.
Maybe the rule about storing if you do it, should be lightened up, so that even if people are doing it, they're not doing it openly and losing that nuance of Tuluki culture.
For the record, Hlum nobles ARE nobles. They are not commoners, or "commoner nobles". They have ascended to the noble caste; but there is a distinction, they are Hlum (of common birth) as opposed to Surif (of noble birth). There's a slightly similar situation in the Templarate caste as well.. They (Hlum) are permitted to get as naughty as they want with the Surif, the question is whether the Surif would want to. Consorts are further... discouraged... from such actions, even though they're lawfully allowed to, since they're not even the actual winners of the Hunt, and they're essentially married for life to their Chosen Lord/Lady. If a Surif was sleeping with a Hlum noble, they would probably have very good reasons (i.e. marriage contract, which is permitted) and/or it would be kept reasonably low-key.
This is my impression of how things are in the game, at least.
And I am intrigued.
Once I'm done with this character, I'll app a Tuluki noble. Hopefully there will be a few foppish mudsexxors thinking the same thing.
I do believe I'll be joining in with the group planning on apping for nobles after their current character. ;D
This is the best thread I've read in at least the last two years. I really learned a few things about Tuluk, mostly from Tlaloc's posts, which were amazing, though I really enjoyed all of A Strange Shadow's comments as well.
I'm startled to find after reading all this I am actually interested in playing a northern noble. Too bad I have my hands full with my current role. Good luck and god speed, kiddos.
I was disappointed more staff didn't weigh in (not to discount Nyr).
Ok, after following this and the thread about what role mudsex plays for you, I understand WHY the caste system is set up the way it is.
However, I think the lack of viable romantic realtionships for Tuluki nobles is a HUGE part of why people don't stick around. I am sorry, but a vNPC relationship is just plain BORING! There is no room for it to change the plot, and MANY plots come from trechery due to love/lust/romance. I feel that such a strong barrier for any romantic relationship, even if the CHARACTERS never have sex but are secretly interested in each other, is a bit overmuch. I am SURE that the Tuluki nobles have heard about how it is in Nak, think they're whores for sleepign around as they do, so they don't. But being attracted to someone?
So, here's my question: If a noble devlopes more than friendly feelings for a commoner, but does not ACT on them, is that a problem? I mean, they know they're not suppose to feel this way and would be... put to death?... if anyone knew about their feelings, but they can't help what they feel, right? Ok, yes, you the player can take away those feelings. I just think something like that would make the Tuluki nobles more interesting to play.
I'd rather see such relationships punishable by death, than to see them OOCly banned. I do feel like it makes a harsher roleplaying experience than nessessary. If you tell players their characters can die from acting out, and then actually pay attention to what's going on and what VNPCs and NPCs will see what, then I think that's enough enforcement.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 06, 2008, 03:39:24 PM
I'd rather see such relationships punishable by death, than to see them OOCly banned.
I'm totally on this boat. IC consequences for IC actions are entirely what I'm about. I can understand that there would be way too many 'exceptions' if there wasn't a rule, but it's an IC rule so I'd be happier if the consequences were IC. Especially if the forced storing was replaced by a scene where you have to take poison while someone tells you how much you've humiliated your bloodlines.
I'll add another potential reason that Tuluki Nobility is hurting right now. Aside from political foes, options have been cut down a tad as far as plotting and scheming go outside of our States. Those who know, know what I am talking about, and while it's cool in a way and it's open to a bit of interpretation, it keeps us from having another ... oh, say, Copper War.
Quote from: tortall on September 06, 2008, 03:32:56 PM
Ok, after following this and the thread about what role mudsex plays for you, I understand WHY the caste system is set up the way it is.
However, I think the lack of viable romantic realtionships for Tuluki nobles is a HUGE part of why people don't stick around. I am sorry, but a vNPC relationship is just plain BORING! There is no room for it to change the plot, and MANY plots come from trechery due to love/lust/romance. I feel that such a strong barrier for any romantic relationship, even if the CHARACTERS never have sex but are secretly interested in each other, is a bit overmuch. I am SURE that the Tuluki nobles have heard about how it is in Nak, think they're whores for sleepign around as they do, so they don't. But being attracted to someone?
So, here's my question: If a noble devlopes more than friendly feelings for a commoner, but does not ACT on them, is that a problem? I mean, they know they're not suppose to feel this way and would be... put to death?... if anyone knew about their feelings, but they can't help what they feel, right? Ok, yes, you the player can take away those feelings. I just think something like that would make the Tuluki nobles more interesting to play.
That's valid. And not playing this role because that aspect of the role is not appealing is valid. I don't play magickers. That said there are people who can enjoy roles that are not centered around romantic rp. Some of -them- should consider filling this void.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 06, 2008, 03:39:24 PM
I'd rather see such relationships punishable by death, than to see them OOCly banned. I do feel like it makes a harsher roleplaying experience than nessessary. If you tell players their characters can die from acting out, and then actually pay attention to what's going on and what VNPCs and NPCs will see what, then I think that's enough enforcement.
Very very cool idea.
And oh my goodness imagine the fun of trying to pull off this kind of relationship. Disguises. Hiding. Lovely.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 06, 2008, 04:08:14 PM
I'll add another potential reason that Tuluki Nobility is hurting right now. Aside from political foes, options have been cut down a tad as far as plotting and scheming go outside of our States. Those who know, know what I am talking about, and while it's cool in a way and it's open to a bit of interpretation, it keeps us from having another ... oh, say, Copper War.
This has bothered me for quite some time, and it really extends beyond the city-states.
I hate it.
Yeh. However, ICly, it was and is the right thing to do. OOCly, we know it was Staff encouraged, above and beyond player efforts.
It's obviously time for a Crazy Eddy.
(You've created a monster here, Tisiphone, really.)
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 06, 2008, 04:34:08 PM
Yeh. However, ICly, it was and is the right thing to do. OOCly, we know it was Staff encouraged, above and beyond player efforts.
Yeah, I agree about the whole thing, but I think it opens up avenues for a whole different sort of conflict, even where it shuts some down.
I had the chance to play a trusted senior servant to Tenneshi once a while ago, before the New Tuluk stuff, and I enjoyed it a whole lot. My girl's relationship with her Chosen Lady had different dynamics than the typical noble-servant relationship in the south does. On some levels my northern servant felt a lot closer "professionally" to the Chosen because she wasn't there to be eye candy or a sex object, she was just there to do a job and do it well. Her Chosen treated her closer to an equal in lots of ways, and confided in her, and trusted her with a lot of things you wouldn't typically see in the south. Of course I had the privledge of playing with Synoru Tenneshi and she was awesome.
Having played in both, though, I still like Allanaki politics more. I think on average they're sharper, deadlier, more brutal, haughtier, more cruel, and no less subtle. Much of that is probably because the nobility are richer, silkier, bitchier and seemingly have more to fight over -- and plus, Blue Robes are always fighting too, and that's something 'nakki nobles can take sides on.
The new Tuluki system does sound intriguing to me, and I'd probably get in on it, except I've sworn off that kinda stuff with my future characters.
You can swear off intrigue in this game? :o Where does that happen?
I suspect the biggest problem here is that inactivity begets inactivity in the noble caste. I know I would be reluctant to apply for a Tuluki noble role, largely because of concerns that there aren't any active ones. For me, the social limitations would be mostly irrelevant, as long as there were people to scheme with and against.
Having said that, change only happens when people step up and do it.
My personal opinion is that the current stale situation stems solely from the fact that there hasn't been someone with the nerve to really push things around in some time. You can list any number of factors, but the start of any good environment is a player willing to stick through the slow times and wait for other players to start playing around him/her. Some people will wait forever because all they do is wait for someone else to start something.
The people who can create something from nothing are truly a rare breed.
Untrue. There was recently a very motivated Surif Chosen in Tuluk. They kicked ass and took numbers. Unfortunately there were no other Surif around to recieve or aid in said asskickings, but even so, that sole existing Surif did a lot.
That said, it's unfair to expect the burden of "starting something" to rest entirely on one PCs shoulders, especially when their player may have reasons not to be the "star of the show" - whether that is RL concerns, character traits, IC limitations, or a combination of those factors. There should be a number of Chosen if Tuluk is to work at all as intended, and to help share the burden of public interaction, employing PCs, and running whatever plots their character gets wrapped up in. As well, many plots may be of a sensitive or otherwise non-public nature, and it's better to assume that someone's up to something you don't know about, rather than assuming that they're doing nothing because you don't see them parked in the tavern every day.
If you perceive a lack and want to start something, start something. As flurry's signature says, be the change.
YES! Exactally. Punish the out of caste stuff ICLY!! And not because your imms were watching and know what you're thinking if you use the think command. But because you did something stupid to show your feelings.
.... There was something else I wanted to say, and I just read over the posts again.... I still can't remember. ~sigh~
There was a 'karma off of 2007' not too long ago. The result forced me to look at why I played Magickers, and for nearly a year, foreswore playing one, and stored the Whiran I was playing at the time.
*hint hint*
Quote from: tortall on September 07, 2008, 10:48:25 PM
YES! Exactally. Punish the out of caste stuff ICLY!! And not because your imms were watching and know what you're thinking if you use the think command. But because you did something stupid to show your feelings.
.... There was something else I wanted to say, and I just read over the posts again.... I still can't remember. ~sigh~
To be fair, I think the implication was supposed to be that your PC
would be punished ICly, the results of which would be death (ie: storage) of the character. It being Tuluk, however, the only evidence of anything amiss might have been a swath of sudden and mysterious dissappearances of the noble, the commoner, the cook and chamber maid who knew of the affair, and the commoner's immediate family. By coincidence, a new series of songs, tales, and plays would suddenly come into fashion in Tuluk, who's themes seemed to ironically point to the folly of inter-caste mingling.
I would love to see things related to Tuluki culture like that be played out more often, but as things stand now, it would require a lot of even-handed staff dedication and some serious attention to running and maintaining plots, which is currently lacking. As well, I have noticed an overall trend to apply the restrictions or downsides more heavily than the opportunities or upsides; players usually need no help in making their character's lives difficult and/or challenging, and could often use support instead (which does not translate to a free ride), especially in a role which has mostly virtual components and/or influences.
This isn't meant to be an attack, or to disparage the efforts of no-doubt busy staff members, but to point out that things simply aren't happening as apparently intended. If the Tuluki staff are feeling overwhelmed or unable to keep up with things (and there is NO shame in that, I've staffed at another RPI in the past and know very well how that can happen), perhaps that's an issue that should be addressed.
This is going to sound like a snipe, but it's really not. It's an honest opinion from a player with a fair deal of Tuluki experience and other experiences to compare it to.
I believe that Tuluk's societal leanings toward subtlety and its behind-closed-doors style of politics hampers the formation of conflict, plots, and interaction among the castes, and in the end hurts the playerbase's desire to play nobility up there.
For one thing, I always used to see people on the GDB saying, "Well if you aren't involved in stuff in Tuluk right now you're just not trying hard enough!" or "you're looking in the wrong places!" or other comments.
Which begs the question... is it conducive to our overall fun to have an entire population centre in the game where if you want fun and plots, you have to go digging for them, even from your own employers? Is it helpful to new players or infrequent players or off-peak players or players unfamiliar with that area of the game to establish a culture where the intrigue and moving-and-shaking is purposefully hidden from view?
It's easy to just say, "Oh, Fathi, if you didn't get involved in shit when you were playing in Tuluk, you were doing it wrong," but this isn't about my personal experiences.
What I'm trying to say is that in other areas of the game, it's much, much easier to notice when Cool Things are Going On. Which is an important draw for new or new-to-the-area players. People may be wary of apping Chosen or sticking with roles that would make things more entertaining for Chosen because when they've played in Tuluk, they weren't able to discern the difference between "cultivated air of calm" and "nothing going on."
While I may agree with some points of that, Fathi, right now I'd just like to see the Tuluki Noble staff weigh in on this if with nothing more then "We're looking into it." or something. Once Tuluk actually see's some love in the way of (Active) leaders, then maybe the issue of how to bring about easier conflict could be brought up.
I really, really, really like the Tuluk set up and system. I can do that, and still agree with Fathi that is -would- be helpful if more open conflict -could- be brought about if necessary/worthwhile to create plots and more fun for the city/players as a whole.
Quote from: Fathi on September 10, 2008, 12:47:48 AM
I believe that Tuluk's societal leanings toward subtlety and its behind-closed-doors style of politics hampers the formation of conflict, plots, and interaction among the castes, and in the end hurts the playerbase's desire to play nobility up there. <snip> is it conducive to our overall fun to have an entire population centre in the game where if you want fun and plots, you have to go digging for them, even from your own employers? Is it helpful to new players or infrequent players or off-peak players or players unfamiliar with that area of the game to establish a culture where the intrigue and moving-and-shaking is purposefully hidden from view? <snip> What I'm trying to say is that in other areas of the game, it's much, much easier to notice when Cool Things are Going On. Which is an important draw for new or new-to-the-area players. People may be wary of apping Chosen or sticking with roles that would make things more entertaining for Chosen because when they've played in Tuluk, they weren't able to discern the difference between "cultivated air of calm" and "nothing going on."
I feel you. Even playing a noble, or a couple of very involved bards, and being someone who is pretty good at getting into plots, Tuluk was definitely harder than necessary on the plot-entanglement level. Often, I think players of Tuluki leader PCs just don't know how to navigate the knife's-edge difference between "subtly saying stuff" and "subtly saying nothing." And they tend to err on the side of saying nothing.
Things I think Tuluki leader PCs could do better (and now that I think about it, most Allanaki leader PCs too, on some points):
-- If you're in private, drop the subtle crap. Subtlety is a public habit, not a private one. Tulukis developed subtlety so they could present that face to the occupying Allanakis, not to each other; IMO, subtlety is a weapon to be used against the -enemy-, not an ally. In private, it's more than fine to speak boldly and plainly. Everyone will feel relieved and much happier when you stop trying to be subtle 100% of the time. In fact, in my experience and analysis of Tuluk, the willingness to be un-subtle with another PC is a culturally significant symbol of friendship.
-- Make a habit of confiding sekrets to your employees. The majority of sekrets are not such a huge deal that you're going to screw yourself by telling them. But, in my experience, most employers rarely tell their employees sekrets. Obviously you're going to want to tailor the sekret-telling to the employee's reliability, trustworthiness, loyalty to the organization, etc. But even then I'd suggest erring on the side of incaution. Learning sekrets is majorly fun for minions, and you might be their only source.
-- Realize that the prohibition on talking about magick, spooky stuff, benders, whatever...is a -public- prohibition. It's OK to tell your employees, behind your own walls, about creepy stuff that is happening, or to educate them. Warn them not to talk about this crap in the taverns, because that's one of the things you just don't do in Tuluk, but be OK with talking about it if necessary, behind walls.
-- If your minions show any interest in or aptitude for politics, train them in that area. Perhaps they won't really use it now, but they might later make a character who's got some background knowledge. Training them in politics means making sure they are informed on all the city's cultural customs; here's a great opportunity to hire a Circle bard to interact with your minion about this. Then, provide opportunities for your minion to interact with nobles and templars on business matters or just as polite company.
-- Use your minions for plot stuff that has nothing to do with coded skills. Task them to make friends with particular people (because those people might be useful), or to spread rumors about something, or to try to get information about a matter. Tasks like this require them to develop relationships and attempt to dig into what's happening. A lot of players won't do this stuff on their own, so the leader should push them, with an OOC eye on the fact that this is good for plots.
-- Be more interesting in the taverns. Sure, you're there to put in an appearance. But with so many noobs coming through Tuluk, if you wait for people to approach YOU for interaction, you're going to be waiting forever. Speaking as a (mostly) former noob, with the documentation being so strident about how dangerous templars and nobles are, it's a rare noob who is going to try to approach you. And experienced players are often so wary of noobles from being previously burned that they won't approach you. So it's up to YOU to find a way to interact at the taverns, not everyone else. In both an IC and an OOC sense, noble and templar PCs are the "parents" of a city's playerbase; and it's the parent's job to make sure the relationship happens, not the child's. In Tuluk, tavern interaction should be staggeringly simple for nobles and templars; just go sit at the bar and chat people up like the superior person you are. Share drinks and spice with the common rabble. (I will send kudos to the first templar I see actually sit at the bar in the Sanc.) Let the commoners see that you're an interesting, witty, kindly, generous person, because it's good for your public image to be so, in Tuluk. I just have always seen far too much cool aloofness from Tuluki nobles and templars; it ain't Allanak, people.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 10, 2008, 12:52:43 PM
stuff.
I believe there are already common people following all your guidelines in Tuluk as it is. I would just like three Nobles to pop up and do the same.
I also think this would make it at least 'seem' that there are 'leaders' online most of the time.
At this point in time, there is an active 'Military' presence; templars, Legions, and what have you. When this is all there is in a city, it becomes black and white, one sided, and droll. As it stands, when these people have their time off, they make up 90% of the bar. Get some Tenneshi, Kassigarh, and Winrothol up in that piece; a noble each, and a pair of employees, and you have a bumpin' social scene.
I think it is that simple.
Also a certain Kassigarh / Tenneshi Noble that has been in retirement who is fat as fuck, or was at least, should un-store god damnit.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2008, 02:28:56 PM
Also a certain Kassigarh / Tenneshi Noble that has been in retirement who is fat as fuck, or was at least, should un-store god damnit.
Seconded.
Gim, your post made me think about a noble role. That is all.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2008, 02:28:56 PM
I believe there are already common people following all your guidelines in Tuluk as it is. I would just like three Nobles to pop up and do the same.
Could very well be. Generally speaking, I haven't seen the same kinds of hrm...role errors in commoner leaders in Tuluk as in nobles/templars. I think that's because of the radical cultural differences between the leader types; if you're playing a GMH family member, or a Sergeant of some organization, the perceived expectations of character style are very different. As in, I think we all believe it's OK for commoners to be rougher around the edges, less subtle, less sekretive, more friendly, more ready to mingle, etc. But we have some confusion as to whether that's OK for nobles and templars in Tuluk. Speaking from experience, it's very hard to figure out where the appropriate point is between "buddy noble" and "uber-superior noble" when playing the role. But I attempted to err on the side of approachability.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2008, 02:28:56 PM
At this point in time, there is an active 'Military' presence; templars, Legions, and what have you. When this is all there is in a city, it becomes black and white, one sided, and droll. As it stands, when these people have their time off, they make up 90% of the bar. Get some Tenneshi, Kassigarh, and Winrothol up in that piece; a noble each, and a pair of employees, and you have a bumpin' social scene.
Yeah, that would be pretty ideal. Though I like nobles from any of the Houses; they each have their own cool flavor and lots of plot potential.
Quote from: Delstro on September 10, 2008, 02:39:16 PM
Gim, your post made me think about a noble role. That is all.
Good :D Seems a few people have been tickled by the idea. I still think it's valuable to send in apps without waiting for the staff to officially open the roles.
If they'd ever do open it up, I might try another Tuluki noble.
I even have a concept: I'd sponsor a traveling menagerie, dump the rest of my money on PC craftsman to make BIG public art Totem Poles with the images of people I didn't like all at bottom and scrunched-up, and I'd pee off the balcony of the Lucky Ghaati frequently. She'd be subtle in between that stuff. Like crazy.
Seeker
Quote from: Seeker on September 10, 2008, 02:48:41 PM
I'd pee off the balcony of the Lucky Ghaati frequently. She'd be subtle in between that stuff.
From a female perspective, I'm kind of racking my brain on how you're going to accomplish that. With the wall being there around the balcony and the female anatomy and all that. But, cool. It would probably be something interesting to see, however you worked it out :D
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 10, 2008, 03:01:10 PM
Quote from: Seeker on September 10, 2008, 02:48:41 PM
I'd pee off the balcony of the Lucky Ghaati frequently. She'd be subtle in between that stuff.
From a female perspective, I'm kind of racking my brain on how you're going to accomplish that. With the wall being there around the balcony and the female anatomy and all that. But, cool. It would probably be something interesting to see, however you worked it out :D
It's quite possible if you think to use your body like a mortar. Females are actually capable of beating any man in a pissing contest by using the 'indirect fire' technique.
How did this topic turn from nobles in Tuluk to female's peeing? ???
Yeh, stay on topic. Dear Lord.
Quote from: Tlaloc on September 04, 2008, 03:21:40 PM
4) The Qynar System & Conflict:
Quote from: Jherlen on September 04, 2008, 12:21:11 AM
You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)
This is exactly the system that was set up with Governances. Nobles can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands. There are (or were), in fact, rules on how to do it.
I can't really make a statement on how this is implemented now, not having been in the game for over a year now (or more?). However, I can make a statement on the intent, when I came up with the whole thing. Under the idealized setting in my mind, Nobles would all be struggling against one another, forging alliances and marriages or vying for the resources and power to off one another and gain control over the other nobles lands. Furthermore, the lands themselves were given a certain amount of weight in terms of resources they generated, and power over other lands. Everything is tied together: for example you might control a land which generates slaves, but your biggest enemy might control your water supply.
Governors were given open ended rules on what they could do with their lands. This allowed PCs to choose what they wanted to do. Governor A might cut off the water supply to Governor B's slave-generating lands. Unchecked, this could screw Governor B's livelihood. Governor B forges an alliance with Governor C, who bans all of Governor A's employees and patrons from visiting merchants in their lands. Shortly thereafter, for grins, Governor C hires an assassin to attempt to assassinate and steal the rights to Governor B's slave-generating lands. The cycle continues. Welcome to Armageddon.
It's a cool system, and a lot of really hard work went into making the noble houses of Tuluk all very unique and interesting. I remember, each time I read the documentation for a new one, I thought to myself: "Wow, I want to play one of those guys". "Those guys" were awesome, and there were lots of them.
Much of the system was left open and undefined so that PCs could bumble around, make mistakes, and generally screw shit up. Yes: I was, secretly, kind of hoping the PCs would throw the Tuluki economy out of whack causing massive starvation and famine to wreak havoc across the city-state. That wasn't the actual goal, but it would have been entertaining and a learning experience for everyone.
The whole thing isn't without it's flaws though. It does have some requirements for smooth running:1) An active playerbase. At all levels. Nobles and Templars are required to do the scheming, while peons are required to do a lot of the dirty work. That said - Tuluk is not Allanak, and nobles in Tuluk can get their hands dirty. Also note that "Active" doesn't have to mean "large". "Large" is good - more players is always more fun, but a small core group of regular players can get a lot accomplished, and germinate the seeds for a popular swing to a new city-state.
2) Active staff. Above all else, Governors were intended to be Lawmakers. Staff involvement is needed in making sure the laws actually happen, and are enforced (though a lot of that responsibility can fall to the PC Templars). Also, staff are needed to
3) Creative and active nobles. Coming up with schemes and "things to do" should be as easy as deciding "I want that land for myself". It's coming up with the "how" that's the interesting part, as well as the gumption to go after it in the first place. If nobles don't log in, or are unmotivated to action (they should be - we put very tangible rewards for conflict) then, as someone posted above: nothing happens.
Ideally, the whole thing runs smooth and almost autonomously with 6 nobles (preferably from 6 different houses, but doubling up can be cool), and a couple of Templars. The most important ingreedient, though, is active nobles. Without a large group of active nobles (between 4-6), the whole thing sort of falls apart. It's like playing paintball by yourself. With nobody around to shoot at, things get really dull, quickly. With the right mixture of active nobles and players, RP in Tuluk should be a little like playing "Smear the Queer" with velvet gloves and nice words.
If that's not happening, my guess is that one (or more) of those things isn't really happening. From reading this thread, it sounds like it may be that there aren't enough active PC nobles. Either PCs are MIA, or they've deceased/retired. The whole thing was designed to have 6 active PC nobles. If there aren't 6 active PC nobles, then the original intent behind the whole system is kind of lost, and you can't really say it "doesn't work". It's like saying the copier doesn't work, when there isn't enough paper in it for it to function in the first place.
I suggest some proactive folks jam some more paper into the copier, and let it spin up on 'high' for a while. App for more nobles, and request the staff keep on people that might be going MIA.
All of that said, with this Caveat: I have no idea what the current Staff have planned, are planning, or have changed. It could be that they don't want to maintain a system like this and would rather spend resources getting 2.Arm up and running. Or maybe they're just busy with other things. Or maybe they're very eager to get things cooking up in Tuluk, and just haven't had the opportunity, or are waiting for something "special". In any case: without knowing what's going on Upstairs, really, this post serves no other purpose than to maybe shed some light on the intentions and goals behind the original change (almost two years ago, now), and how things could move forward.
Where can I find some Docs about the Qynar System?
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/ic/northlands/nobility/Recent Changes:
The Triumvirate meetings in Years 30 and 31 brought several changes to Tuluk that have since become well known.
Chosen Houses are no longer set into predetermined tiers. The individual actions of each House and each House's nobles will determine what ranking the House has. This status is determined at the start of each Triumvirate meeting.
These Triumverate sessions also announced two changes to areas of the city. One, the area formerly known as the Ruins, now cleared of debris, would reopen for development and be known henceforth as the Old Quarter. Two, that the gates into the Noble Quarter would be open to everyone. The City also presented each Surif House with a unique bell made from copper gained in the Copper Wars. Now anyone can enter the noble quarter and ring the bell outside an estate to meet with those within.
Per the same meetings, Tuluk has been divided into several regions called 'Qynar', with regions outside of the city called 'Striasiri'. These regions are governed by noble representatives chosen by the Lirathan Templarate. Those of His Chosen that are governing any of these regions are given authority to pass localized laws and influence their region accordingly.
The current qynars are: Freil's Rest, the Red Sun Commons, the Warrens, the Tribal Market, Poet's Circle, the Old Quarter, and the Vineyards. The current striasiri are the Grasslands, the Southeastern Plains, the Southwestern Scrub, and the Grey Forest.
In Year 38 of the 21st Age, the Tuluki Triumverate ruled to reinstate that treasured historical tradition of Old Tuluk, the Grey Hunt. The winner is given a lifetime grant of a Hlum noble title, as well as a lavish home and other perks.
I am really confused on how this works:
QuotePer the same meetings, Tuluk has been divided into several regions called 'Qynar', with regions outside of the city called 'Striasiri'. These regions are governed by noble representatives chosen by the Lirathan Templarate. Those of His Chosen that are governing any of these regions are given authority to pass localized laws and influence their region accordingly.
The current qynars are: Freil's Rest, the Red Sun Commons, the Warrens, the Tribal Market, Poet's Circle, the Old Quarter, and the Vineyards. The current striasiri are the Grasslands, the Southeastern Plains, the Southwestern Scrub, and the Grey Forest.
I'm not asking really 'how' it works, but rather, 'does' it work, code-wise. Are these written authorizations backed up by the code? In other words, if Chosen Governor Jimbob is authorized to pass localized laws in the Warrens, and says "no more wearing of pink clothing on Nekrete!" does he have -coded- authority to arrest someone who is caught wearing pink in the warrens on Nekrete? If he arrests them, is there a place he can take them? I mean do they go to the Tuluk jail in the Heart? Do Chosen Governors even have access to it? Will the *Legion* NPC soldiers gank the noble, or the noble's First Senior Master Henchman, if either of them try to subdue their "criminal?"
These are things I think even common citizens would know...people who grew up in the Warrens would -know- that if they are caught doing something their Chosen Governor has decreed is illegal, that they will be arrested and brought to jail. Or that they will be subdued by a Legion Soldier. Or that the Legion Soldiers will come to their aide if they tell the Chosen Governor to fuck off. Or whatever...I think these fall under the category of "What your character would know about Tuluk."
Quote from: Lizzie on September 10, 2008, 09:22:49 PM
I am really confused on how this works:
QuotePer the same meetings, Tuluk has been divided into several regions called 'Qynar', with regions outside of the city called 'Striasiri'. These regions are governed by noble representatives chosen by the Lirathan Templarate. Those of His Chosen that are governing any of these regions are given authority to pass localized laws and influence their region accordingly.
The current qynars are: Freil's Rest, the Red Sun Commons, the Warrens, the Tribal Market, Poet's Circle, the Old Quarter, and the Vineyards. The current striasiri are the Grasslands, the Southeastern Plains, the Southwestern Scrub, and the Grey Forest.
I'm not asking really 'how' it works, but rather, 'does' it work, code-wise. Are these written authorizations backed up by the code? In other words, if Chosen Governor Jimbob is authorized to pass localized laws in the Warrens, and says "no more wearing of pink clothing on Nekrete!" does he have -coded- authority to arrest someone who is caught wearing pink in the warrens on Nekrete? If he arrests them, is there a place he can take them? I mean do they go to the Tuluk jail in the Heart? Do Chosen Governors even have access to it? Will the *Legion* NPC soldiers gank the noble, or the noble's First Senior Master Henchman, if either of them try to subdue their "criminal?"
These are things I think even common citizens would know...people who grew up in the Warrens would -know- that if they are caught doing something their Chosen Governor has decreed is illegal, that they will be arrested and brought to jail. Or that they will be subdued by a Legion Soldier. Or that the Legion Soldiers will come to their aide if they tell the Chosen Governor to fuck off. Or whatever...I think these fall under the category of "What your character would know about Tuluk."
Your PC would know that yes, Qynar Laws are real, and if they break them they can be hauled off to jail. For the most part the Legions would be the one hauling your ass off though. The noble houses do have security forces in their respective Qynar that can and do have the same authority though.
For the second time: the Tuluki Noble houses are OPEN! Send in a damn app!!!!
The above statement is misleading.
Just because a clan is listed as "Open" doesn't necessarily mean the staff are accepting applications for new nobles at a given time. What it means is the clan is open for play and has staff assigned (as opposed to "Closed" clans and tribes, which have no assigned staff and aren't open to players.) I can't speak for the staff on Tuluki Nobles, but if/when they're ready to accept new applications, they'll post something.
I think she just mean more along the lines of: "If you don't like the way things are, quite griping, get off your butt, and do something about it."
I'm not sure what the point is in having an "open" status in a clan with assigned staff members, if there are no PCs in the clan and they are not actively seeking new PCs.
Tuluki nobles: open - Mekeda, Onimantu, Wachabe
Tuluki templars: open - Senga, Vanth
As far as I know (and it seems everyone else knows), there are -zero- PCs in the Tuluki nobles. There is one, only partly active Lirathan templar, and one, only partly active Jihaen templar. Between the two templars, they don't even comprise a "reasonably active" single templar combined.
So basically, we're right where we started at the first post in this thread. And I (and apparently others) would like to know, why are these clans NOT being recruited for by the clan IMMs? It's obvious they are needed, and it's obvious that they are wanted, and it is now obvious there are people who would be happy to fill the roles.
Now all we need is for a staff member assigned to those clans to say "Wow - need and interest - let's fill a role!"
I wasn't really commenting on need or lack thereof for nobles in Tuluk, since I don't staff Tuluk. I just interpreted the comment I responded to (and some others in this thread) as saying "Send an app in now and fix the problem!"
I responded because I didn't want people to get up false hopes or misunderstandings. I'm sure the Tuluki staff will be working on the issue when time permits.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 11, 2008, 10:07:18 AM
As far as I know (and it seems everyone else knows), there are -zero- PCs in the Tuluki nobles. There is one, only partly active Lirathan templar, and one, only partly active Jihaen templar. Between the two templars, they don't even comprise a "reasonably active" single templar combined.
A note... just because you don't see them running around and doing things doesn't mean they aren't there when you are, aren't there when you aren't, or any other situation like that.
So, just wanted to say the two templars up there might be very active and at the worst probably make up a "reasonably active" single templar combined.
Brandon
For the record, there are at least 2 Jihean templars. And there have been for a few months.
My question.
What if the Tuluki Noble applications were open like a Desert Elf tribe? Anyone could app at any time, but it first has to be approved through the imms. I believe that would greatly improve the system.
Quote from: FuSoYa on September 11, 2008, 10:26:36 AM
A note... just because you don't see them running around and doing things doesn't mean they aren't there when you are, aren't there when you aren't, or any other situation like that.
That's the kind of reasoning that won't get the Tuluk problem solved.
I hope I'm not being rude by saying this, but I think that Jihaen Templars are probably the least of what makes Tuluk what it is supposed to be.
To make Tuluk what it is supposed to be, I think we really need at the very least two -active- Lirathan templars and at the very least three Chosen Nobles.
Saying that "It's not because you don't see them around that they aren't active", when some of the players in this thread are spending 80% of their online time at the Sanctuary and still
never manage to see a Chosen or a Faithful Lady is not very productive to getting the problem solved.
The #1 issue is the need for another Faithful Lady, and I absolutely don't understand why there hasn't been any new request for one in the last six months.
So I'm just going to assume that it's an IC thing and the Nobles of Tuluk share a genetic component with the kanks and are slowly disappearing as well.
Quote from: Malken on September 11, 2008, 11:47:06 AM
So I'm just going to assume that it's an IC thing and the Nobles of Tuluk share a genetic component with the kanks and are slowly disappearing as well.
They're evolving into Cendi.
Shhh.
Quote from: Malken on September 11, 2008, 11:47:06 AM
Quote from: FuSoYa on September 11, 2008, 10:26:36 AM
A note... just because you don't see them running around and doing things doesn't mean they aren't there when you are, aren't there when you aren't, or any other situation like that.
That's the kind of reasoning that won't get the Tuluk problem solved.
I hope I'm not being rude by saying this, but I think that Jihaen Templars are probably the least of what makes Tuluk what it is supposed to be.
To make Tuluk what it is supposed to be, I think we really need at the very least two -active- Lirathan templars and at the very least three Chosen Nobles.
Saying that "It's not because you don't see them around that they aren't active", when some of the players in this thread are spending 80% of their online time at the Sanctuary and still
never manage to see a Chosen or a Faithful Lady is not very productive to getting the problem solved.
The #1 issue is the need for another Faithful Lady, and I absolutely don't understand why there hasn't been any new request for one in the last six months.
So I'm just going to assume that it's an IC thing and the Nobles of Tuluk share a genetic component with the kanks and are slowly disappearing as well.
Nothing I said had anything to do with the current problem. I just didn't think it was fair to make assumptions on the two current Tuluki templars who are active. I'd love to see the north's politics flourish I just think consideration should be taken of the other players when posting.
Most people do their best with what they have.
Brandon
Quote from: FuSoYa on September 11, 2008, 12:27:18 PM
Nothing I said had anything to do with the current problem. I just didn't think it was fair to make assumptions on the two current Tuluki templars who are active. I'd love to see the north's politics flourish I just think consideration should be taken of the other players when posting.
Most people do their best with what they have.
No one's blaming the current active templar(s) or noble(s). In fact, part of what we're saying is that it's not fair for the burden of leadership to rest entirely on one or two people, when the city is designed for a minimum of 1 each active -junior- Lirathan and Jihaen, and 4 junior Surif Chosen. While Allanak can get by with just one pretty active blue robe (because generally speaking blue robes are all the same), Tuluk can't do without both Jihaens and Lirathans in public view; their functions are just too different.
And I'll make a further note: Above, I said what's needed is -junior- leadership. This is always true in both Allanak and Tuluk. High Templars and Red Robes and Senior nobles are all well and good, but due to the loftiness of their positions they really should be directing the activities of templars and nobles just under them, not the common rabble. Also, they generally do not have the freshness and spark of a player who's new to the role and trying to get stuff going.
Quote from: FuSoYa on September 11, 2008, 12:27:18 PM
Most people do their best with what they have.
Brandon
I totally agree on that, real life comes first, always, but I don't think it's an insult to them either to say that they appear only somewhat partly active if that is the truth.
Unless they've all suddenly started popping back in game since last week, there IS a lack of Faithful Ladies and Chosens currently in game, and us saying so has nothing to do with the players currently playing one.
Hmm, yah, what Gimfy says.
It still boggles me that there's a lack of response from the Tuluk Staff on this *sigh*
If it's for an IC reason, then please tell us that it's for an IC reason.
Otherwise, please explain to us why there isn't any openings for Chosens in Tuluk and at least a new Faithful Lady, when it seems like we see announcements for a new Tor noble and Allanak templars every month or so.
Last check on Tuluki Templars returned a response that (at the time - a month/month and a half ago) was there were too many.
As for the Chosen, no response yet.
Quote from: Janna on September 11, 2008, 01:05:52 PM
Last check on Tuluki Templars returned a response that (at the time - a month/month and a half ago) was there were too many.
As for the Chosen, no response yet.
Too many? Where did you read that? Since when is one Lirathan whose player can't play actively, regularly, "too many" Lirathans? (I say can't, because I assume that if she could, she would. Her character certainly is interesting and missed)
Quote from: Janna on September 11, 2008, 01:05:52 PM
As for the Chosen, no response yet.
:( I'll be moving on for now.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 11, 2008, 01:30:22 PM
Quote from: Janna on September 11, 2008, 01:05:52 PM
Last check on Tuluki Templars returned a response that (at the time - a month/month and a half ago) was there were too many.
As for the Chosen, no response yet.
Too many? Where did you read that? Since when is one Lirathan whose player can't play actively, regularly, "too many" Lirathans? (I say can't, because I assume that if she could, she would. Her character certainly is interesting and missed)
This is what bothers me as well, when I emailed the Tuluki Staff a few weeks ago, they told me that they had "three active Faithful" in Tuluk, and that Tuluk has more Faithful per citizen than they do in Allanak. (I'm certainly not sure about that, but it's part of the reply I've received).
I don't know if they just look at numbers and not really at the time played by those Faithful, but it is not true that we have three active Faithfuls in Tuluk.
We have two semi active ones and, the most important, in my mind, a lack of Faithful Lady. (Now I really feel guilty because it sounds like we are putting pressure on that player to log in more often than she probably can, when in fact, like Gimfalisette says, we need more
active -new- Faithful Ladies, not to pressure the High Templar Lady to log in if she can't)
I was also told that the Staff agreed with me that they could certainly use more Chosen (The email was on the 8/15), and that "With the clan rotations and recent changes in the northern noble houses, the new staff of northern nobles may address that."
I don't know what those recent changes are or if the clan rotations happened yet, but this would be nice if it was addressed in this thread.
Side note related to the discussion: I really wish that important clan roles were measured in terms of total play hours, rather than by quantity of PCs in those roles. Example, Tuluk might need:
10 hours peak-time Lirathan representation per week
10 hours peak-time Jihaen representation per week
20 hours peak-time Chosen representation per week
10 hours Kadian family member merchant representation per week
10 hours Salarri family member merchant representation per week
Etc.
Instead of:
1 Lirathan templar
2 Jihaen templars
4 Chosen
1 Kadian
1 Salarri
Etc.
Then players could commit to a certain quantity of hours per week and split up the burden amongst them.
I mean, yes, Tuluk "has" a Lirathan right now. But if that Lirathan's player is currently unable to play, or to play more than a couple hours per week, then the role may as well be unfilled. If there was another Lirathan who could take up the missing hours, I'm sure that would help both the playerbase AND the player of the existing Lirathan. One of the reasons that these roles become so burdensome over the long run is precisely because of the ongoing demands on time.
It's especially frustrating, when the -only- active "this or that" goes on vacation for a RL week. It's like, ok, everyone just - don't bother logging in this week, because you have no one to report to, no one to pay you, no one to catch you fucking up, no one to give you tasks, no one to collect the shit we asked for the week before. We are IT - and we are on vacation, so just go away and don't bother trying, cause everything is at a standstill until we get back.
That is why we need more than one of each....and why at LEAST one of those, needs to be active, regularly, during peak time.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 11, 2008, 01:57:23 PMOne of the reasons that these roles become so burdensome over the long run is precisely because of the ongoing demands on time.
QFFE.
(Quoted For Fucking Emphasis)
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 11, 2008, 03:30:33 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 11, 2008, 01:57:23 PMOne of the reasons that these roles become so burdensome over the long run is precisely because of the ongoing demands on time.
QFFE.
(Quoted For Fucking Emphasis)
DQFFTAEADIMT
(Double-Quoted For Fucking Truth And Emphasis And Did I Mention Truth)
Quote from: a strange shadow on September 11, 2008, 03:30:33 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 11, 2008, 01:57:23 PMOne of the reasons that these roles become so burdensome over the long run is precisely because of the ongoing demands on time.
QFFE.
(Quoted For Fucking Emphasis)
QFFFFFE.
The main reason I stop enjoying a role is when I start feeling like everyone else is waiting for me to log on to poor buckets full of questions and demands on.
You know it gets pretty bad when the minute you log in you already have three people in your head wanting for you to solve their problems and it goes on
like this until you log out, and you have no one else to send them to.
The more I feel like this is happening, the less I want to log in, and the worse it gets the moment I log back in.
When you wake up at 4am trying to solve a PC's problem in your half-awaken dream state, you know it's time to store and move on ;p
THAT'S WHY I MUST SAY AGAIN THAT THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY PLAYING A FAITHFUL OR CHOSEN ROLE, WE LOVE YOU AND TREASURE THE TIME YOU CAN GIVE US.
And I sorta like this: I'm a control freak.
Since my last comment was ignored it looks like.
The way the new Tuluki noble system is designed would work better if the Tuluki noble "clan" was open, as in anyone could apply and play a noble after submitting a special request to have one. Much like how D-elves work currently, but everyone needs to be pre-approved, not just magicker d-elves.
I like Malken's Dilemma. I love doing that.
QuoteTHAT'S WHY I MUST SAY AGAIN THAT THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY PLAYING A FAITHFUL OR CHOSEN ROLE, WE LOVE YOU AND TREASURE THE TIME YOU CAN GIVE US.
BUT: WE NEED MORE FILLED QUANTITIES OF THESE ROLES. (Well, and SOME Surif Chosen, since there aren't any and more than 0 could still be less than 1.)
Edited to clarify Surif, thanks to strange shadow, cause we already do have "a Chosen" but it's different.
Speaking without any knowledge of the current state in Tuluk, but just as somebody who plays leaders in general...
The more I see players unapologetically complaining about how often I play or not, the less excited I am to go and play.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 11, 2008, 03:50:09 PMWE NEED MORE FILLED QUANTITIES OF THESE ROLES. (Well, and SOME Surif Chosen, since there aren't any and more than 0 could still be less than 1.)
ftfy.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 11, 2008, 03:47:28 PM
And I sorta like this: I'm a control freak.
Probably most people who thrive in the leader role enjoy a certain quantity of being needed and wanted. But when the role becomes ALL business, and one's time is limited in some way, and one's character is encountering the same problems over and over, and one does not have a suitable minion (or three) to whom to delegate...then it stops being fun. This is what things appear to be for the current nobles and templars in Tuluk. There are too few, with too few hours, and when they log in they get slammed to take care of non-interesting details.
I mean, there's only so many merchant licenses, sneaky licenses (in Tuluk), gems (in Nak), complaints about petty theft, complaints about soldiers, etc. that a single authority figure can handle, proportionate to total time spent in game, and still have fun. But the playerbase doesn't stop needing this stuff just because a templar only has 2 hours per week to give. The burden needs to be shared so that templars and nobles can both get their IC jobs done, AND have fun.
Quote from: Southie on September 11, 2008, 03:53:48 PM
Speaking without any knowledge of the current state in Tuluk, but just as somebody who plays leaders in general...
The more I see players unapologetically complaining about how often I play or not, the less excited I am to go and play.
You really haven't been reading the thread if you are characterizing it like that.
Noble roles won't ever be like desert elves in the way they are accepted/set up. The scope of support is very, very, very different on the staff side.
I'm helping get some of these Surif apps reviewed.
Quote from: Nyr on September 11, 2008, 04:00:46 PM
I'm helping get some of these Surif apps reviewed.
<3
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 11, 2008, 03:58:25 PM
Quote from: Southie on September 11, 2008, 03:53:48 PM
Speaking without any knowledge of the current state in Tuluk, but just as somebody who plays leaders in general...
The more I see players unapologetically complaining about how often I play or not, the less excited I am to go and play.
You really haven't been reading the thread if you are characterizing it like that.
I wasn't characterizing the whole thread, just some of it. I actually agree with your idea of measuring activity by hours of playtime, not by how many characters are in a role.
Quote from: Southie on September 11, 2008, 04:19:01 PM
I wasn't characterizing the whole thread, just some of it. I actually agree with your idea of measuring activity by hours of playtime, not by how many characters are in a role.
It would really work well for a lot of things. Sometimes clan leaders get told to stop hiring just because of body count in the clan, but that doesn't mean the clan necessarily is sucking up too much of the total playerbase hours. The power of a clan when it comes to PCs is largely dependent on player hours (at all levels from leader down to grunt), not simple player count.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 11, 2008, 04:32:51 PMSometimes clan leaders get told to stop hiring just because of body count in the clan, but that doesn't mean the clan necessarily is sucking up too much of the total playerbase hours. The power of a clan when it comes to PCs is largely dependent on player hours (at all levels from leader down to grunt), not simple player count.
Total playerbase hours would be a fantastic statistic to have. Just sayin'.
Quote from: Nyr on September 11, 2008, 04:00:46 PM
Noble roles won't ever be like desert elves in the way they are accepted/set up. The scope of support is very, very, very different on the staff side.
I don't know if it was meant to mean that Tuluki nobles would be as open and frequently granted as desert elf roles, but that they would simply always be open for applications to any House, and the staff, when they receive an app, could simply say, "Well, we have too many Tuluki nobles now, but thanks for applying," or, if there happens to be a gap when someone submits an app, "Hey, good timing, we could use a new noble up in Tuluk!"
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a time when noble roles
were like that, even in the South. In 2001 or so, I believe I applied for an Oashi noble (and was granted the role) just by emailing the House Oash staff with my application. I don't think there was an open call at all, but again, I could be remembering incorrectly.
Quote from: Nyr on September 11, 2008, 04:00:46 PMI'm helping get some of these Surif apps reviewed.
Jawesome.
Quote
Re: The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility
« Reply #141 on: September 11, 2008, 01:43:19 am »
Reply with quote
The above statement is misleading.
Just because a clan is listed as "Open" doesn't necessarily mean the staff are accepting applications for new nobles at a given time. What it means is the clan is open for play and has staff assigned (as opposed to "Closed" clans and tribes, which have no assigned staff and aren't open to players.) I can't speak for the staff on Tuluki Nobles, but if/when they're ready to accept new applications, they'll post something.
Quote
Re: The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility
« Reply #142 on: September 11, 2008, 01:47:06 am »
Reply with quote
I think she just mean more along the lines of: "If you don't like the way things are, quite griping, get off your butt, and do something about it."
That is indeed what I meant. I get really frustrated when people don't realize they can send imms an app for whatever even if there's no call for it. I don't think one of my apps for a family member for a noble or merchant house was ever requested. I just sent it in and started playing.
On an exciting note I heard from a friend that the Tuluki Noble imms are currently reviewing several apps. I sure hope several go though so we'll have say... Five at least semi active?
And someone should pm me on how to make these crazy quotes work. I apparently am doing it wrong.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 10, 2008, 09:22:49 PM
I am really confused on how this works:
I'm not asking really 'how' it works, but rather, 'does' it work, code-wise. Are these written authorizations backed up by the code? In other words, if Chosen Governor Jimbob is authorized to pass localized laws in the Warrens, and says "no more wearing of pink clothing on Nekrete!" does he have -coded- authority to arrest someone who is caught wearing pink in the warrens on Nekrete?
In terms of coded authority, i.e. crim code immunity, my understanding is no.
QuoteIf he arrests them, is there a place he can take them? I mean do they go to the Tuluk jail in the Heart? Do Chosen Governors even have access to it?
I don't believe there are coded jails for each qynar, nor do Governors have access to the Tuluk jails.
QuoteWill the *Legion* NPC soldiers gank the noble, or the noble's First Senior Master Henchman, if either of them try to subdue their "criminal?"
Yup.
All of these incongruities take the feet out from under the system and are a large part of the reason why I don't think it works as envisioned.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 12, 2008, 12:28:15 PM
All of these incongruities take the feet out from under the system and are a large part of the reason why I don't think it works as envisioned.
I very much disagree. Rather, it's a great RP opportunity for interaction between nobles and their employees, and soldiers and templars. Rife with possibilities for political struggle in and of itself. Most of the noble houses don't even have forces that would be suitable for doing enforcement, anyways. (Winrothol and Lyksae being the exceptions, NONE of the other houses has anything more than scout/hunting forces for the purpose of supplying their own needs. And some of them don't even have that.) Coded backup is icing on the cake and never necessary for what a noble wants/needs to do.
So now that something is being done about new Chosens, but many of us actually moved away from Tuluk recently, I hope it's not going to be another case of too many Chosens and not enough minions, urgh!
Alright, guys, pack your suitcases, we're heading back to Tuluk!
Fighting over the supply of good minions is a handy source of conflict.
MOAR CONFLICT
Also, Tuluk has had plenty of people in it lately, even sans Malken ;)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 12, 2008, 12:36:09 PM
Quote from: Jherlen on September 12, 2008, 12:28:15 PM
All of these incongruities take the feet out from under the system and are a large part of the reason why I don't think it works as envisioned.
I very much disagree. Rather, it's a great RP opportunity for interaction between nobles and their employees, and soldiers and templars. Rife with possibilities for political struggle in and of itself. Most of the noble houses don't even have forces that would be suitable for doing enforcement, anyways. (Winrothol and Lyksae being the exceptions, NONE of the other houses has anything more than scout/hunting forces for the purpose of supplying their own needs. And some of them don't even have that.) Coded backup is icing on the cake and never necessary for what a noble wants/needs to do.
If the Governors are wholly reliant on the templarate for enforcement of their power, then their power ends any time the templarate disagrees with their governing. The system seems intended, and Tlaloc's explanation even seemed to reinforce the idea that the Governors are supposed to be able to govern and do whatever they wish with their qynar. But that's not the case in game. The people capable of doing the actual enforcement are the ones with the true power. If the system is supposed to work like it's being presented/envisioned, the Chosen should be the ones with the authority.
I'm not actually advocating that be done, I'm just saying that seems what should logically be in place from the way this is all being described.
It's only not the case codedly. Code is weird and not entirely IC. Oh well. Within their qynar, each governor does have the right to do as desired. Sometimes the code just has to be worked around. (I mean, we all know there are 87,000 other issues with the crim code. This is just another one.)
A simple solution is to make each section of the city with it's own crim code, and then to grant the governer and their soldiers with the Clan encharged with enforcing that code.
Crim Code is not so hard to duplicate. What is a bit harder is going through each room and inputting the new flag that the crim code would look for.
It seems like there's either an error in your logic, Gimf, or I'm misunderstanding what you're saying....
You say Chosen do have the authority to make and enforce laws, and this is the case every way but codewise, but then you say that it's good that they are dependent on the Legion for enforcement as this promotes plots and conflict.
If the code was the only issue, wouldn't that mean they aren't supposed to be dependent? Or if they were supposed to be dependent, wouldn't it mean that it isn't in fact the case that they have the ability to enforce?
My guess ist that there can only be one crim code governing any particular area in the current version of ARM. So that wouldn't really work, as Legion soldiers and templars still need to have coded authority everywhere.
Really, dealing with the ambiguity isn't all that hard. And as I said, most of the houses don't even have the virtual forces to do all their own policing. That is what they -pay- the templarate to do.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 12, 2008, 01:54:22 PM
You say Chosen do have the authority to make and enforce laws, and this is the case every way but codewise, but then you say that it's good that they are dependent on the Legion for enforcement as this promotes plots and conflict.
What I'm saying is that the code doesn't reflect IC reality. Oh well. Nobles just need to suck it up and use the non-reflection of IC reality as interaction and plot seeds, instead. Lemons into lemonade.
Conflict based on IC factors is good.
Conflict based on OOC factors is just frustrating and leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
We make do with what we have, but it's a legitimate issue that the coded and gameworld reality aren't meshing, because it causes a dependency that should not exist to that level.
Ahhh, got it. Well, I think a better way would be to make the code reflect IC reality, because in this case who has the right of the "law" (or rather, the crime code) behind them really does affect the system.
These same issues exist in Allanak. Though nobles are ICly free to break the laws, OOCly the crim code will codely go against them.
I think y'all are making a mountain out of a molehill on this issue. It's just not that difficult to navigate around.
Also, again from the OOC standpoint, I really don't want to see nobles starting to take it into their heads that they are alternate templars, because they are Governors. Their concerns and their methods should be politics, not enforcement. Some noobles (both north and south) are already bad enough on the whole "I'm a badass and I'm going to have the law punish you" thing.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 12, 2008, 02:02:58 PM
These same issues exist in Allanak. Though nobles are ICly free to break the laws, OOCly the crim code will codely go against them.
I think y'all are making a mountain out of a molehill on this issue. It's just not that difficult to navigate around.
Also, again from the OOC standpoint, I really don't want to see nobles starting to take it into their heads that they are alternate templars, because they are Governors. Their concerns and their methods should be politics, not enforcement. Some noobles (both north and south) are already bad enough on the whole "I'm a badass and I'm going to have the law punish you" thing.
In Allanak and Tuluk both, nobles don't become wanted when they commit crimes. (Their servants do, though. Or maybe it's that nobles become wanted but aren't arrested or harassed by npc soldiers. Either way I know nobles can pull out a club and beat someone if they truly have the inclination.)
Again, it seems like the system is being presented such that the Governors ARE supposed to be templars of their own qynar. If they aren't, and all they supposedly have is the power to make laws in name only, that's not really power and they aren't really governing anything at all.
It's not a good idea to have the IC reality supposedly be one thing but the coded reality be something different. The code should match the system as designed. It doesn't. I don't think the system is going to work until it does.
For the record, I actually don't like the qynar system precisely because I would rather templars be the rulers and lawmakers and enforcers instead of the nobles.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 12, 2008, 02:11:43 PM
In Allanak and Tuluk both, nobles don't become wanted when they commit crimes. (Their servants do, though).
Huh. I never tested that. But if enforcement was really wanted, then it'd be pretty simple to make certain ranks of servants be non-crimmable. Since that's the only coded difference between a noble and a servant; rank in their particular clan.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 12, 2008, 02:11:43 PMAgain, it seems like the system is being presented such that the Governors ARE supposed to be templars of their own qynar. If they aren't, and all they supposedly have is the power to make laws in name only, that's not really power and they aren't really governing anything at all.
Governance is primarily about the money. It's always been about the money. The money from their governed qynar flows through the houses to the templarate now, whereas previously it just went straight to the templarate. THAT is the power of a governor.
Again, I think the focus on coded enforcement, or enforcement at all, is the wrong tack for governors. Completely wrong. The role wasn't intended to be played that way.
If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 12, 2008, 01:56:03 PM
My guess ist that there can only be one crim code governing any particular area in the current version of ARM. So that wouldn't really work, as Legion soldiers and templars still need to have coded authority everywhere.
That's right, but only because of what the crim code looks for. If the Governer's crim code is asked to look for a flag instead of a room sector, then suddenly, both the City and Provencial codes work just fine together. Also, there is a system I know of that looks for room numbers. This also works crossways.
And I tend to like the idea of provencial forces and laws, actually. Conflicting laws in the same City State sounds awesome. Kinda like the difference in speed limits between states in the USA. I'd like to see the Templarette as the National Guard, and the Governer's forces as the State Troopers.
Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2008, 02:21:49 PM
If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.
Or the templars would tell you to piss off and not help you because they don't like you or are involved in other things. Which means that in order to be able to legally enforce the law in a noble's own qynar, they have to kiss the templarate's ass in hopes the templars will come running to help them if they want somebody arrested.
I've always found it kind of befuddling how Tuluk's system is supposedly a triumverate, but in the end, all the power comes back to the templars and whether or not they would feel like cooperating. It seems to me like the nobility's authority is a paper tiger.
Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2008, 02:21:49 PM
If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.
Why is your noble wasting his or her time outlawing dumbass things, anyways--do you mean to make yourself look stupid and weak to your peers? Why is your noble wasting his/her valuable employees' time on petty enforcement, when you only get 2 personal employees? And why haven't you bribed that templar so she or he is spending the majority of his or her time, and their soldiers' time, patrolling your qynar and enforcing your laws and always on call?
Politics. Politics. POLITICS.
Quote from: Fathi on September 12, 2008, 02:26:19 PM
Or the templars would tell you to piss off and not help you because they don't like you or are involved in other things. Which means that in order to be able to legally enforce the law in a noble's own qynar, they have to kiss the templarate's ass in hopes the templars will come running to help them if they want somebody arrested.
I've always found it kind of befuddling how Tuluk's system is supposedly a triumverate, but in the end, all the power comes back to the templars and whether or not they would feel like cooperating. It seems to me like the nobility's authority is a paper tiger.
*sigh*
Man you guys. Just...man. So much negativity about a system without even trying it out.
Let me ask this: Do any of you think the templarate WANTED the qynar system? That it was entirely voluntary that they voted for it in the Triumvirate? The nobility has leverage, plenty of leverage. They are no paper tiger, and even less so now with the qynar system.
As in many other cases, the IC reality is one thing, and the public IC reality is another.
There's only so much about the qynar and striasiri system that is publicly known, the rest is in IC documentation that all governors have had and know about.
When I made the decision to assist and help with writing up a lot of the new changes to Tuluk in public documentation (expounding on the uses and goals of the partisan system, the "upheaval" in Tuluki politics, the qynar/striasiri), I also made the decision to only reveal as much as necessary. There is more than meets the eye. Those that need to know how it works can inquire in-character about it.
All of the rest of this talk is simply conjecture. It has no bearing on what actually has gone on in game or what will go on in game.
That was just an example, Gimf. Maybe a noble that was having a love affair with a commoner and told the commoner to always wear pink shoes. Maybe I outlawed half-giants from my Qynar since a gang of them were ravaging my streets at night. I can do nothing about it if a PC templar/soldier isn't around. If I am an offpeak Noble, (which i would be), then I have no power over my Qynar.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 12, 2008, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2008, 02:21:49 PM
If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.
Why is your noble wasting his or her time outlawing dumbass things, anyways--do you mean to make yourself look stupid and weak to your peers? Why is your noble wasting his/her valuable employees' time on petty enforcement, when you only get 2 personal employees? And why haven't you bribed that templar so she or he is spending the majority of his or her time, and their soldiers' time, patrolling your qynar and enforcing your laws and always on call?
Politics. Politics. POLITICS.
Quote from: Fathi on September 12, 2008, 02:26:19 PM
Or the templars would tell you to piss off and not help you because they don't like you or are involved in other things. Which means that in order to be able to legally enforce the law in a noble's own qynar, they have to kiss the templarate's ass in hopes the templars will come running to help them if they want somebody arrested.
I've always found it kind of befuddling how Tuluk's system is supposedly a triumverate, but in the end, all the power comes back to the templars and whether or not they would feel like cooperating. It seems to me like the nobility's authority is a paper tiger.
*sigh*
Man you guys. Just...man. So much negativity about a system without even trying it out.
Let me ask this: Do any of you think the templarate WANTED the qynar system? That it was entirely voluntary that they voted for it in the Triumvirate? The nobility has leverage, plenty of leverage. They are no paper tiger, and even less so now with the qynar system.
I never said I wasn't willing to give it a chance; I was just pointing out that it seems to me that, in the end, all the power in Tuluk comes back to the templars.
So let's say my hypothetical noble bribes a Lirathan who, for whatever reasons, valid or stupid, has decided she hates my noble's House. I have one of my bards compose a very flattering number about some of her recent exploits, give her a few assorted gifts, and lend her mucho public support.
The templar in question can, in reality, just disregard all my character's efforts and completely ignore my noble based on her individual prejudices, can she not? There are no laws about this.
Realistically, I could go find another Lirathan to favour, but that's not how it is. You're stuck with what the PC templars will or will not do for you, because they are PCs.
I could try to rally other nobles to my cause, but if the Lirathan in question treats them just fine, why would they side with a noble that a templar is choosing to ignore, at the risk of incurring that templar's wrath or at least losing their favour?
I could try to find a Jihaen and attempt the same thing, but there's no real competition between the templarate Orders. Does a Jihaen have anything to gain, except pissing off the Lirathan, by aiding my noble's cause?
Is this somehow not the case? It seems to me that any power your noble may or may not have in Tuluk absolutely hinges on what the templarate is willing to do for you.
Quote from: Fathi on September 12, 2008, 02:43:57 PM
Is this somehow not the case? It seems to me that any power your noble may or may not have in Tuluk absolutely hinges on what the templarate is willing to do for you.
It is not the case. Nobles and templars are always in a symbiotic relationship. PCs who ignore reality suffer; I've seen it happen over and over, on both sides of the equation.
During the crisis in Tuluk that resulted in the qynar system, my noble had (to be mild about it) very poor relations with the PC Lirathans (nearly got executed!), and wasn't so cozy with the Jihaens either.
And yet, my noble got plenty of stuff done. Both despite that opposition, and because of it.
Quote from: Delstro on September 12, 2008, 02:41:33 PM
That was just an example, Gimf. Maybe a noble that was having a love affair with a commoner and told the commoner to always wear pink shoes. Maybe I outlawed half-giants from my Qynar since a gang of them were ravaging my streets at night. I can do nothing about it if a PC templar/soldier isn't around. If I am an offpeak Noble, (which i would be), then I have no power over my Qynar.
If you think you have no power, you're undoubtedly right--you are powerless.
If that is the case, I've lost interest. If you tell me OOCly I can make laws, but I need other willing PCs for it to work, in an Offpeak time that could be 1 other Pc soldier. That 1 PC soldier won't want to walk around the Warrans looking for half-giants. I wouldn't. My pc would be killed for not obeying and I'd leave the area.
Let's say I'm governor of Freil's and I hate Kadius. I decide to make a law that says all Kadian goods shipments brought into my qynar will be charged a 100 sid tariff. Well, great. Where do I get people to be the border patrol? My own guards? My PC guards can't do jack squat to Kadians hauling bags of stuff in, because of the crime code. If the imms are nice, and my House is big enough, maybe I have enough NPC guards to set up checkpoints at all my qynar entrances. But many Houses don't employ that kind of manpower. So how do I enforce my own law?
... the Legion.
... which is free to stop enforcing my law whenever it becomes convenient for them to do so.
Thus my authority as a governor is wholly dependent on the templarate, or on staff assistance, as it currently stands.
I will also add that code can always improve areas of the game, but roleplay can bridge the gaps between what the codebase does and what it doesn't do.
Some of these posts are starting to move into areas that do not need to be discussed on the GDB.
Some things are public documentation. Some things about this particular system are NOT in public documentation.
If you need to know, ask. Otherwise, you don't need to bring it up here.
So maybe no one really wants to apply for Chosen roles because it seems to be that no one really understands how it works except for a tiny percentage of the playerbase ???
Are the docs detailed enough that, say, an average player like myself could jump into that sort of role without making a total fool of myself within a week?
Quote from: Malken on September 12, 2008, 03:09:52 PM
Are the docs detailed enough that, say, an average player like myself could jump into that sort of role without making a total fool of myself within a week?
No. That is why we call them "noobles" ;)
More seriously, playing a noble is a difficult role. It's not for everyone. But it's learnable.
A lot of players make the mistake of thinking that playing a noble is about having some kind of "authority" or "power" or "backing." But that's not what it's about. And that's why so many screw it up.
Power comes from politics, not from code.
I would assume the VNPC soldiers are taking care of the VNPC Kadians. If some PC Kadian happens to slip by, you call the soldiers on them. If the soldiers don't cooperate, you take it up with their Templar. If the Templar doesn't cooperate, you find an IC way to punish them. For instance maybe economically strangling them (which may not be hard coded but the Imms can simulate it really well). Plots are born. Fun ensues.
Your authority is dependent on the Templarate only inasmuch as you allow it to be. You seem to be treating the situation like the whole Legion is hostile to you personally or your House along with the entirety of the Templar order in question, which if there are enough Templars is likely to have conflicts within their own ranks is only going to happen for a good reason. Like you going out of your way to piss them off.
It's been made to sound like soldiers just chose to ignore nobles with impunity. I have -never- seen that happen.
I really don't see the deal here about not having coded power to arrest your own criminals. Not every aspect of the game is hard coded, and not everything about making a law is going to revolve around the coded ability to be able to haul your criminals off personally to your own personal jail. There are lots of other ways to enforce something even IF the Legions aren't cooperating.
Sooo... Don't tell me I can do that if I can't. If I have no coded power to stop someone from doing something, and they want to do it anyway, then I can't give them IC consequences without help from other PCs. That is disheartening. I don't really care "Power is more than code." Power is in the RP, because I have no coded support. So if someone in the string of PCs doesn't want to RP, that line of RP is broken and I'll lose interest. If that is only the way it "appears," then that is a major detriment to the whole idea.
Then it sounds like you ought to avoid that system, since you're just going to be frustrated by it. ;)
Re: The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility
That could be a reason for the languish. Deal, I will be avoiding it.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on September 12, 2008, 03:15:02 PM
I would assume the VNPC soldiers are taking care of the VNPC Kadians. If some PC Kadian happens to slip by, you call the soldiers on them. If the soldiers don't cooperate, you take it up with their Templar. If the Templar doesn't cooperate, you find an IC way to punish them.
Your authority is dependent on the Templarate only inasmuch as you allow it to be. You seem to be treating the situation like the whole Legion is hostile to you personally or your House along with the entirety of the Templar order in question, which if there are enough Templars is likely to have conflicts within their own ranks is only going to happen for a good reason. Like you going out of your way to piss them off.
All it takes is a templar who decides to order his soldiers not to bother enforcing the law because he thinks it's stupid, and you have a breakdown in government. A well placed Kadian bribe in the situation I described would totally undercut my authority as a governor. So would bad relations with the templar PCs. So would inactivity on the part of the templars, or if the templars are too busy to enforce my laws. Notice how so much of this seems dependent on what the templars do and don't do?
Unless the nobles and templars march in really close step, it seems like that would happen fairly frequently. That seems far too chaotic to have a stable government. Either the templarate has to be absolutely obligated to enforce whatever laws the Chosen dish out, under pain of punishment if they don't, or the Chosen don't really have the power it's being claimed they do. And since this is Zalanthas and the templarate themselves are the ones with the army, I honestly can't see them self-imposing restrictions on themselves.
I'm not focusing on coded power, I'm just trying to understand the system as a sensible function government. Right now, I don't see it working the way people say it does.
My point is that all of these issues you could hypothetically have with the Templarate not helping you enforce your laws can all be solved through other means ICly, if you are creative.
Edit -
I would even hazard to say that you are going to have MORE fun and MORE plots if the Templarate refuses to cooperate, since a tax on Kadians is pretty straightforward and mundane, but figuring out a way to muscle uncooperative Templar into complying with your will is going to be a lot more convoluted and require a lot more thinking, manipulation, other people, and roleplay. None of which I see as bad.
All I have to say is that obviously, the Tuluki Noble Caste is for niche players. I consider myself a fairly good player, and I'm having a hard time conceptualizing the role of a Governer who has no coded power in his territory. It just makes no sense.
But then, I never was a subtle player, so perhaps I'd better stay in Allanak if I ever want to play a Noble.
So obviously the Voltron Has Never Formed.
It's like my xmas gift long ago, I received a voltron except I was missing that fat yellow guy, who is, as far as I can remember, the left leg of the Voltron.
Maybe the system needs to be a lot simpler, because all I'm seeing right now is 90% of the people coming here having to be explained how everything really works by Gimfalisette.
As much as I like her, Gimfalisette is not the rest of us :)
I agree, it is for niche players, unfortunately, it also affects the rest of the players playing around the system.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 12, 2008, 03:43:53 PM
All I have to say is that obviously, the Tuluki Noble Caste is for niche players. I consider myself a fairly good player, and I'm having a hard time conceptualizing the role of a Governer who has no coded power in his territory. It just makes no sense.
But then, I never was a subtle player, so perhaps I'd better stay in Allanak if I ever want to play a Noble.
I just don't see that this is true. I don't think I'm a niche player. And the issue has nothing to do with subtlety.
The role of a Governor is political. How does that not make sense? How is that so complicated?
Quote from: Malken on September 12, 2008, 03:49:18 PM
Maybe the system needs to be a lot simpler, because all I'm seeing right now is 90% of the people coming here having to be explained how everything really works by Gimfalisette.
As much as I like her, Gimfalisette is not the rest of us :)
I agree, it is for niche players, unfortunately, it also affects the rest of the players playing around the system.
While I appreciate the backhanded compliment, I've seen other noble players successfully navigate the new system in Tuluk. Some better than me, in some ways. The role is really not THAT different from the role of a Nakki noble.
Quote from: Jherlen on September 12, 2008, 03:36:18 PM
All it takes is a templar who decides to order his soldiers not to bother enforcing the law because he thinks it's stupid, and you have a breakdown in government. A well placed Kadian bribe in the situation I described would totally undercut my authority as a governor. So would bad relations with the templar PCs. So would inactivity on the part of the templars, or if the templars are too busy to enforce my laws. Notice how so much of this seems dependent on what the templars do and don't do?
In my past experience, this is untrue. You're really talking about something that you don't seem to know about ICly, and honestly - you're flat wrong. This situation has actually come about in the past and it did not result in a, "breakdown in government". There may be systems that you are unaware of.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 12, 2008, 03:54:10 PM
While I appreciate the backhanded compliment, I've seen other noble players successfully navigate the new system in Tuluk. Some better than me, in some ways. The role is really not THAT different from the role of a Nakki noble.
I don't know what a backhanded compliment is, but yah, I meant to say that you seem to have a lot of knowledge about the whole game, much more than most of us do :)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 12, 2008, 03:54:10 PM
I've seen other noble players successfully navigate the new system in Tuluk. Some better than me, in some ways. The role is really not THAT different from the role of a Nakki noble.
Really? Because I haven't seen that many -nobles- to begin with since yours, and except for one of them who I think we all know who I speak of, all the others seem to have lasted less than a month or two since then, and
I can't remember any of them having any sort of lasting effect on Tuluk, at least that I'm aware of.
When your gang of five nobles started out, you probably had TONS of Staff support to go with you, since the whole system was new and probably "exciting", back then.
Just to chime in a bit more and hopefully clear up some misconceptions for some people, Templars are -not- the be all to end all in Tuluk, or Allanak for that matter. Code really doesn't mean squat except in minor cases which can be worked around imho. I can clearly recall four Chosen with my first Lirathan, and three more with my second one that had plenty of power and ways to move around the system based entirely on politics with -less- power then they have now.
It's a complicated sounding system, but not that hard once in full practice from my personal point of view.
Using the "I want to ban pink shoes in the commons' example. You, as Govenor fancypants with the new system of Tuluk, can certainly see your laws enforced regardless of crime code. If someone is caught, fine them. If they run, get the Legions on it.
But what if the Templar is mad at me and tells the legions not to help? Well, with the new system in place, as govenor of the commons, it would be a particular headache to said Templar if you decided to up the rent (especially on legionaires living out of barracks) then send around a bard or two to tell the tale of Templars causing hardships for the common people based off some petty dispute. It causes said templar to lose face, if effective, cost more coin if they want those places in the commons held onto for whatever reason, a nightmare of reassigning bunks/food rations in barracks for those who need to return from the cost, and jack the crime rate by others who need to steal to pay such rent.
Is all of that -really- worth not enforcing some small law with a soldier or two, or collecting a fifty sid fine for a Templar? I doubt it. So it gets done regardless of it they hate your guts.
I mean this threadlock in the nicest and gentlest way possible.
Some closing remarks:
Governorship is not/has not been granted arbitrarily.
Tuluki noble PCs are not necessarily guaranteed a qynar or straisiri to govern.
Those that play Tuluki nobles do have access to more documentation than the rest of the playerbase.
This documentation is also in IC form.
Discussion on things that are in that documentation or other non-public documentation should not be on the boards.
***This applies to (but isn't necessarily limited to) passworded documentation and documentation available via clan discussion boards, as well as helpfiles available for restricted guilds and races. It is borderline discussion, I understand that. However, we discourage (or outright disallow) discussion of certain matters that can be found out in-game or are secret. The magick system, secret cultural documentation, branching information for classes, plotlines--all of these are along the same lines.***
The role of a Tuluki noble is a niche role, but so is that of an Allanaki noble, an Allanaki Templar, a Tuluki Templar (of either sect), a GMH family member, a tribal--the list goes on and even extends into guilds and races. Some people don't like playing elves. Some people don't like playing merchants. Some don't like playing combat roles. Play in the niche that suits you.
One of the underlying problems of no PC nobles is being resolved. I volunteered to help get apps through for this over the weekend, and I've already been through some of them and made notes.
There were a lot of good points and posts made here and they will be (and have been already, in some cases) taken into advisement.
Without this thread, this likely would not have been brought to attention so quickly and there would not have been a slew of applications.
Thanks for your involvement in this thread and your contribution to making the game more awesometacular.