The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility

[Barzalene]

I've recently become a real Tuluki fan.
It took my six and a half years though. I started a pc, that I came very close to storing. I sat and seethed at all the happy smiling people. I thought 'Ugh,' And then I got a chance to play around the power players. And my perspective changed. I started to see that not everyone who seemed to be benign was.
I came to really enjoy the culture. And some really strong players are the people -to- play with and playing there.

Then my pc died. And I ended up back in Nak. And you know what? There's a lot of smiling fluffiness there. There are issues. Some players are more fun to play with than others.

But I really feel that if you play in Tuluk long enough to come to really like or really hate one other pc, that you'll play there long enough get drawn in.

So, I'm sorry, back to the point here. I think the fact that Tuluk -feels- different (and if you're taking only a cursory glance, less Zalanthan) is why Tuluk hasn't peaked.

[Boggis]

The problem with your logic is that you are assuming that the current playerbase is all there is. Yet, we are currently growing and have now approximately the same number of players we did when there were 5 active nobles in Tuluk, and at least 4 active nobles in Allanak. (The time period when I played a Tuluki noble.)

I didn't think we had the numbers back then to support the two properly and I don't think we have the numbers now. I think that that 4 nobles in a city-state is the bare bones minimum and often doesn't really lead to sustainable political play. I'd say that we need the following for sustained political intrigue with both inter and intra House conflict (bearing in mind the different timezones people play in):

3 Templars - 15 hires
8 Nobles - 32 hires + patrons if in Tuluk
6 GMH family members - 20 hires
2 Mercenary Sergeants - 20 hires
2 Crime bosses - 15 hires

Won't happen in both places I think unless we grow quite a bit. I'd agree that we do a disservice currently to new players by not having Tuluki options open for play so I'd definitely go ahead and open up a few slots but it just glosses over the bigger issue to me which is the general design of the gameworld for the number of players we have (even if we are growing slightly).

It's also important to remember that limiting options to the playerbase is not, in and of itself, growth-promoting. The opposite is true; the more options people have, and the better-marketed those options are, the more likely they are to purchase. (This is why corporations are always putting out new products.)

I just think we'd be better off marketing one complete product instead of two incomplete ones as what keeps new players is getting solid interaction from the get go. But what appeals to me may not appeal to others and they may be perfectly happy with a city with 4 nobles. I just think that we're not getting the potential from either city like this and it kind've irritates me because I've seen how politically charged the game can be. But seeing as we have to deal with the situation as is I guess we should open up a few slots and try to get some things moving. It certainly won't hurt the game in general to try. I'm just praying that something similar doesn't arise in Arm 2.

[a strange shadow]

Boggis and Lizzie wrote my post for me.

I do think it's possible to have fun in Tuluk as is - I certainly have - but there are definite areas which need improvement. Condensing the playerbase into one city while allowing for some outward spread (outposts, minor civilization centers) is an ideal option to me, but not a particularly viable-looking one at the time. As it is, political RP tends to fall flat, and there are often two disparate situations of either too many minions and not enough masters, or too many masters and not enough minions. It's rare and all too brief, if beautiful, when it all is balanced.

[Gimfalisette]

stuff

Well yeah, that's generally what I mean. That's why having just one additional noble in Tuluk won't completely fix the issues. I'm not ashamed to say that meaningful relationships are always important to my characters (and fascinating to me), and if my Tuluki noble hadn't had a (socially valid) lover, plus friends and competitors at her own social level, I would have been a lot less interested in the character. Tuluki noble players are people too, and want to have fun with their characters just like any of the rest of us do.

But what appeals to me may not appeal to others and they may be perfectly happy with a city with 4 nobles. I just think that we're not getting the potential from either city like this and it kind've irritates me because I've seen how politically charged the game can be. But seeing as we have to deal with the situation as is I guess we should open up a few slots and try to get some things moving. It certainly won't hurt the game in general to try. I'm just praying that something similar doesn't arise in Arm 2.

I'm not saying the situation is perfect...yet. I think we need to continue to work on growing the playerbase. And meantime, Tuluk deserves a full life of its own. 4 nobles and 2 templars is actually a reasonable quantity to get stuff going in Tuluk, assuming they are all active.

[staggerlee]

I believe that the Staff have taken player distribution and settlement structure into account in the next game and are working on methods of allowing variety and a fair distribution while still encouraging interaction.  My understanding was that they plan to do so through geographic as well as political and social means.

In the meantime we have Armageddon and there's no reason to think they're going to close Tuluk.  For this conversation to go in anything like a positive direction I think it has to discuss why northern noble roles aren't being filled, not whether they should be filled.  Debating over whether Tuluk should or should not exist is a waste of breath - rather than beating our collective heads against a wall, we need to find a way to make things work.

I'm inclined to think the matter of romantic relationships is a fairly small factor, though certainly one.  It's not the only role that discourages that (half giants come to mind) and while it could be a strike against them, it also allows for some other interesting scandal, conflict and personal strife.  IE: Something that can be worked out in game and imho fun.

[Gimfalisette]

For this conversation to go in anything like a positive direction I think it has to discuss why northern noble roles aren't being filled, not whether they should be filled.  Debating over whether Tuluk should or should not exist is a waste of breath - rather than beating our collective heads against a wall, we need to find a way to make things work.

The only reason is because staff has not opened applications (last time was March of this year), and when they have done so, they have only taken one noble. March 2008, January 2008, July 2007, and April 2007 (x2). That's only 5 openings for nobles in a year and a half since my Tuluki noble died. Of those, 1 may be still active. And none of the noble PCs who were active when my noble died are now active.

[Malken]

I'm inclined to think the matter of romantic relationships is a fairly small factor, though certainly one. 

For you, perhaps, but not for everyone else I spoke with. Honestly, it is the number ONE reason why people don't play nobles in Tuluk, and also the reason why I would never want to play one myself, or become one eventually.

I am going to be honest and admit that the number one reason my character doesn't enter the Grey Hunt is purely OOCly based. I don't want to end up lonely like the other Chosens I have observed in the last two years or so.

Lizzie wrote exactly what I meant, it has nothing to do with mudsex, and you can mock me as much as you want, but the fact remain that it is a much bigger issue than some of you may think.

I am convinced of that.

Again, it feels to me that the one Chosen who seemed to really have enjoyed his role in the last year was also, to my personal opinion, part of the "least" noble of Houses in Tuluk.

Edited to add: By relationship, I'm also speaking of friendship. Sure, you can be "friend" with your Chosen, but it'll never be the same and always feel a bit forced to me.

[Gimfalisette]

That's only 5 openings for nobles in a year and a half since my Tuluki noble died. Of those, 1 may be still active. And none of the noble PCs who were active when my noble died are now active.

Looking back over the same time period for Allanak, I'm recalling at least 9 noble PCs entering within that timeframe; plus there were 3 active at the beginning of the timeframe.

It's really not a question of whether or not players want to play Tuluki nobles. Those players who want to are out there, and will apply...if/when applications are opened up. (Not me. Someone else this time )

Honestly, it is the number ONE reason why people don't play nobles in Tuluk, and also the reason why I would never want to play one myself, or become one eventually.

Mehhhhhhhhhh. It is undoubtedly -a- reason why some wouldn't want to, but it is not necessarily the number one reason for every player.

When they opened applications for all the houses in September 2006, and I applied, IIRC there were a lot of applications. I'm fairly confident that if apps were merely opened, good players would apply.

[Lizzie]

Well another factor is, the staff haven't posted an opening for northern nobles since April 9, and it was for only one noble. There was also a post for northern templars, a Jihaen and a Lirathan, posted in March.

How many *active* nobles and templars do we have currently? Your guess is as good as mine. From what I can see, none. By active I mean something besides logging in, sitting down for 20 minutes, then logging off again.

edited to fix the date of the ad for templars to March, not May.

[Malken]

Mehhhhhhhhhh. It is undoubtedly -a- reason why some wouldn't want to, but it is not necessarily the number one reason for every player.

When they opened applications for all the houses in September 2006, and I applied, IIRC there were a lot of applications. I'm fairly confident that if apps were merely opened, good players would apply.

Well, I said the number reason for the people I talked to, and you know what sort of people I talk to! 

But yes, I don't understand why they don't allow new applications, surely the Staff can see that there's absolutely no Chosen Lords or Ladies around, unless you count one that I only see maybe once every two
weeks for an hour or so..

So what Tuluk needs for -certain- is an active Faithful Lady or two, and at least three Chosen nobles.. Can we all agree on that?

[Clearsighted]

If people need the possibility to mudsex their lessers while playing a character in a position of total uthority in order to have any fun, then I don't think it would attract the sort of players you'd want in those roles. Especially since tuluki nobles are supposed to be more about leading from the front.

It works in Nak since the nobles are supposed to be worthless and dissolute 90% of the time.

[Malken]

How many *active* nobles and templars do we have currently? Your guess is as good as mine. From what I can see, none. By active I mean something besides logging in, sitting down for 20 minutes, then logging off again.

If by "active" you mean the number of nobles and templars that play at least 10 hours a week (That's like less than an hour and a half a day), then you are right, the number of active nobles and templars is 0.

If you count in the ones that make an appearance once in a while (I hope that the Staff doesn't count them as active, so unneeded for new applications), then right now I'd say we have -maybe- two Faithful Lords, and one Chosen.. No, I won't eve say
that we have a Chosen right now.

Sorry, I love you all, Tuluki players, but some hard love is needed right now.

[staggerlee]

Mehhhhhhhhhh. It is undoubtedly -a- reason why some wouldn't want to, but it is not necessarily the number one reason for every player.

When they opened applications for all the houses in September 2006, and I applied, IIRC there were a lot of applications. I'm fairly confident that if apps were merely opened, good players would apply.

Well, I said the number reason for the people I talked to, and you know what sort of people I talk to! 

But yes, I don't understand why they don't allow new applications, surely the Staff can see that there's absolutely no Chosen Lords or Ladies around, unless you count one that I only see maybe once every two
weeks for an hour or so..

So what Tuluk needs for -certain- is an active Faithful Lady or two, and at least three Chosen nobles.. Can we all agree on that?

Yeah you're absolutely right, I'm sure the very limited nature of social interactions does have a role. Romantic and otherwise.
You're right about applications as well, though without more information it's hard to judge that. It's altogether possible that there just hasn't been sufficient interest expressed previously for it to be deemed worth opening applications. I doubt they want to open them if they only get at most one or two responses every time,  we also want fairly high standards for who occupies that kind of role.

In short... I don't really know what to do, or even how to assess the situation.

[a strange shadow]

Edit: I was being snarky. I'll refrain.

[FuSoYa]

Really?  Because of mudsex?  I'm confused but am I the only person who doesn't participate in that on the MUD?

Brandon

[Malken]

Really?  Because of mudsex?  I'm confused but am I the only person who doesn't participate in that on the MUD?

Brandon

Please don't try to derail this important thread into some sort of mudsexing debate, we all understand that relationships and romance doesn't have to be related to mudsex.

Thank you, now let's try to solve the real problem.

[Lizzie]

Really?  Because of mudsex?  I'm confused but am I the only person who doesn't participate in that on the MUD?

Brandon

Oh I guess those three RL hours in the cave was just...snuggling.

<sniff>

[Gimfalisette]

marko once said, in a post long ago and far away, "Nobles are really flavor roles, in either city." (Paraphrased.) And I agree with him on that; a certain quantity of public visibility is a reasonable requirement for the role. Otherwise the "flavor" of nobility is missing from the environment, as it is in Tuluk currently.

Note that this is absolutely no statement on the activities or value of any current nobles or templars. Merely a proposition about what the value of the noble role is to the game as a whole. It is also really not fair for the whole burden of public visibility ever to be on one noble, or one templar, in either city-state. That makes the role un-fun and too job-like.

Again, that's part of why having just one or two nobles in a city-state is a poor strategy.

[Haze]

It's been a few years since I've had a PC active enough in politics to know the current state of affairs in the cities, but...

The difference between Allanak and Tuluk, from my perspective, has always been that Allanak has bad guys and Tuluk doesn't.  Yeah, sure, Tuluk has bad guys, you just don't know about them, for whatever good that does.

In Allanak, if it's not the gith, then it's the elves, and if it's not the elves, then it's some band of thugs, or some scheming defiler, or some monster from the depths.  This is stuff that nobles can get involved with, either just to have something to talk about between marathon mudsex sessions or to be actively involved with.  It gives the templars something to do, too, and their meddling and politics gives nobles more stuff to do.  To the contrary, the culture of Tuluk seems designed to squash most interesting stuff long before it becomes interesting.

That's why, in my opinion, Tuluk has always had that fluffy, girly, non-Armageddon feel to it, but I've been out of touch for a while, so what do I know?

Assuming it's a problem of interest from players, what do nobles in Allanak do that nobles in Tuluk don't get to?

[Gimfalisette]

The difference between Allanak and Tuluk, from my perspective, has always been that Allanak has bad guys and Tuluk doesn't.  Yeah, sure, Tuluk has bad guys, you just don't know about them, for whatever good that does.

Under the qynar system, there is potential for a lot of internal conflict between Tuluki nobles, which would logically involve templars as well, and minions on all sides. However, that conflict cannot be realized without a few Tuluki nobles to play against each other, and Hlum nobles cannot partake in it at all, as they cannot acquire governorships.

In Allanak, if it's not the gith, then it's the elves, and if it's not the elves, then it's some band of thugs, or some scheming defiler, or some monster from the depths.

Tuluk has some outside enemies, but the problem is...as you said, no one can talk about them publicly. Tuluk also does not have what's required to actually go out and defeat any mega-defilers who might pop up, as they have no gemmed of their own. Well, OK, they have plenty of NPC and VNPC templars to defeat such a threat...but that's no fun for PCs, is it?

And the Tuluki templarate is a poor setup for internal conflict between PCs. Lirathans and Jihaens do not compete directly against one another as PCs (organizational competition is a different matter). Whereas in Allanak, blue-robe templars are often in direct competition with one another.

So yes, conflict can be a problem in Tuluk and it has been. However, if there were enough Surif nobles, it would be do-able. It HAS been do-able...we conflicted the crap out of each other between Oct 2006 and Feb 2007. I have many fond memories of plots, fights, insults, using bards against each other, hiring sneakies...good stuff.

[Medena]

Assuming it's a problem of interest from players, what do nobles in Allanak do that nobles in Tuluk don't get to?

Allanak nobles get to enter into the game world with a strong organization and structure already in place around them. Usually there will be another PC noble of that house already in the game and/or PC house servants. Even if there aren't, there is a readily identifiable tradition of what that house means and what it does through both documentation and, more importantly, through IC history and the exploits of previous PC's of that house.

This is the main reason I'd never consider playing a Tuluki noble. I need some structure. I don't want to have to build everything myself. But that's just me.

[Irae]

the culture of Tuluk seems designed to squash most interesting stuff long before it becomes interesting.

It's been my experience over the course of several PCs, some Tuluki and some non, that most Tuluki templars seem to see it as their goal to crush any potential PC-to-PC conflict within the city-state that isn't directly generated by them.

Oh, you want to commit licensed crime? Tough, every single one of your targets is working for the templar you're required to buy your license from.

What, you want to spy on Noble/Merchant House X while working for Noble/Merchant House Y? Too bad. The only spies allowed are templarate spies.

What's that, you bought a license on another PC? Oh, whoops, one of the templars told your target all about it beforehand.

This seems to have been my experience over the course of several different templars over the history of my play in Tuluk, and heck, maybe it's been so long since I played there that the current templars aren't like that. But my experience was soured enough that I don't care to go back, and I think other players who have attempted to engage in sneaky-like business in Tuluk may have similar issues with how the sneakiness system is set up.

[Gimfalisette]

This is the main reason I'd never consider playing a Tuluki noble. I need some structure. I don't want to have to build everything myself. But that's just me.

However, every one of the Tuluki noble houses has now had at least one PC in it, sometime within the last year and a half. All of the Houses have documentation available to guide the noble player, and it's pretty clear on what the functions of the Houses are and what the "job" of the noble PCs is. Some of the Houses have libraries of books written and collected by the PCs who have gone before, and/or masses of stuff stored up. There are stories that could be told about various PCs, by characters who are alive in game right now. There is a history there now, is what I'm saying.

[Lizzie]

Irae, it sounds to me like you've either had a huge string of bad luck, or you were doing something wrong. Cause my experience has been much much different.

I haven't ever tried to get a license for anything in Tuluk...but I have had characters who have spied on their own bosses, for other houses, or for seniors in their own clan, or for templars of Tuluk, and one time even for a templar in Allanak. I've had characters who have made deals, and arranged deaths, of other characters, both with and without the blessings of the northern templars. One of my more recent characters spied in Allanak for no less than two northern nobles, one northern templar, and a GMH family member. Some of them knew about the others. At least one of them didn't know a thing. And at no time did I ask for, or receive, the blessing of the templar for any of it. Except in that I was asked by the templar to do a little spying, which of course I was already doing anyway, so it was no big deal to tell the same information to another person for a few more sids

Most of my experience playing has been in Tuluk. I have played in Allanak, and most of my characters have spent time in Allanak.  I see no absolute monopoly on licensing or plotting in Tuuk, EXCEPT that there simply aren't any other PC templars or nobles to get permission on anything from. So you're currently stuck asking the only active templar, or the only active noble, and right now, none of them are active.

At the time the staff was recruiting a Lirathan, there already was one. So they were looking for a second. Supposedly that second role was filled. But I don't remember seeing a second Lirathan. If there was, it must've happened in the 3 weeks between my northern characters, heh. And it's not been recruited since, and that was back in March, almost 6 months ago.

You want more plotting, more opportunity to get permission to do things, get license to commit crime, then help push for more nobles and templars in Tuluk. Without that, you'll be exactly where we are right now. Wishing we had what we don't have.

[Barzalene]

the culture of Tuluk seems designed to squash most interesting stuff long before it becomes interesting.

It's been my experience over the course of several PCs, some Tuluki and some non, that most Tuluki templars seem to see it as their goal to crush any potential PC-to-PC conflict within the city-state that isn't directly generated by them.

Oh, you want to commit licensed crime? Tough, every single one of your targets is working for the templar you're required to buy your license from.

What, you want to spy on Noble/Merchant House X while working for Noble/Merchant House Y? Too bad. The only spies allowed are templarate spies.

What's that, you bought a license on another PC? Oh, whoops, one of the templars told your target all about it beforehand.

This seems to have been my experience over the course of several different templars over the history of my play in Tuluk, and heck, maybe it's been so long since I played there that the current templars aren't like that. But my experience was soured enough that I don't care to go back, and I think other players who have attempted to engage in sneaky-like business in Tuluk may have similar issues with how the sneakiness system is set up.

This is I think, one of the most interesting posts in the thread.
My experience with the current group of templars has been overwhelmingly supportive and good. But my sneaky characters were not at odds with the current templars per se. So, I cannot speak to whether or not that happens.
But the system puts a lot of power into the hands of a very few people. And however strong we are as players it's really hard not to find ways to be swayed by what we feel is our ps's interests. (That's why talking on aim is so dangerous. Not because of overt cheating, but unconscious biases.)
So, while I don't know, and I wouldn't think our current group of templars are guilty of this, it's something they should be monitoring themselves for. -You have to let your darlings be endangered. It's how society works. You can kill anyone with a license. And if your job is to sell those licenses you sell them. And you keep your mouth shut. Because even though there are a thousand ways to justify protecting your interests it waters down the playing experience on a whole.
Sorry, I guess this was a derail.