The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility

[Marauder Moe]

Lame.   

Here I was starting to dream of being a Chosen Lady's secret love pet...

[Tlaloc]

I thought I'd chime in here, for old times sake. Note, I haven't played in quite some time, and don't speak for the current staff in any way, shape or form. They could very well have set things up differently, and much could have changed since I last looked at it. That said:

Here are a few pieces of feedback, based on my reading of this thread:

1) Mudsex:
Mudsex, in my opinion, shouldn't be an issue. If it really is an honest to god reason why people aren't playing nobles...well, I feel sorry for those folks. Not because I'm judging them (god knows: those in glass houses, etc. etc.), but because I feel they're limiting their options as far as roles go, and not creating creative solutions to solve problems.

A basic truth of Armageddon is that "conflict" creates "interest". "Conflict" can be external: a gith attacking you while you mine for sid; A templar shaking you down while you try to smuggle spice across the city. It can be grand: two city states fighting; one race deciding another race doesn't have the right to exist any more. But conflict can also be internal and small: the internal struggle that happens when a spy is asked to betray her employers; or the unrequited love that two star-crossed lovers feel who can never, ever be together.

I mean: whole books and stories have been written about just that small thing right there. I point to Chaucer as an example: the whole notion of Courtly Love could be something which could possibly be explored in Tuluk (perhaps not 100% exactly - but some variant). The Babylon 5 geek in me also might cite the relationship between Delenn and her assistant Lennier as a very "Tuluki" romance between two members of castes who can't be together. The whole idea of becoming a "patron"  could be exploited as a sort of "romantic" connection between two members of a caste. Remember that Tuluk is a city of subtlety, and in that city there are more sophisticated ways of saying "I love you" than boning your aide in the stables.

Any of those ideas may be a stretch, and would need to be developed further, but that's what the fun of playing is. If everything was laid out and documented for us...why play a game at all?

2) The age-old "One City Is Better Than Two" argument.
I never liked hearing folks say things like: "I hate playing in Allanak." or "I hate playing in Tuluk."

The truth is, you should be saying: "I love playing Armageddon". The cultures and situations created by different areas of the Game are all part of "Armageddon" or the world of Zalanthas. The issue shouldn't be: "I hate playing in City X". The issue should be: "What sort of character concept would make City X fun for me?" In my opinion, people should always be pushing themselves in terms of interesting character concepts. I would avoid playing "filler" PCs in one city-state over another. Instead, I would simply play full on PCs in one city-state or another. Try and ignore the things that "bother" you about a city, and try and find - and encourage - the things you really enjoy.

As an example: I once hated playing in Tuluk. Seriously. Allanak was the definitive place that defined "Armageddon" to me. When I saw the opportunity, I tried to change Tuluk into a place that I would want to play. The jury may still be out on how successful that was - but I was pleased with the results at the time.

3) Too many leaders.
I used to believe the notion that having too many nobles/templars would dilute the playerbase and make the game worse on the whole. I think now I would tend to believe that this is less of an issue than people make it out to be. I think having more leaders, more spread out, might be better for generating more diverse plotlines, and recruiting more newbies to join in the fun.

I think the struggle here shouldn't be in worrying about the lack of a playerbase, but rather encouraging PC leaders to make plotlines with the resources they have available. Good leaders will always attract players.

That said, it's very easy for me to say that, not having played a PC noble/Templar in a while.

3) Documentation:
I've heard several people state that one reason that people may not play in Tuluk is because they don't understand. I encourage people, in those instances, to assist the staff and write up any documentation you may feel is missing, or that could help clear up something.

4) The Qynar System & Conflict:

You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)

This is exactly the system that was set up with Governances. Nobles can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands. There are (or were), in fact, rules on how to do it.

I can't really make a statement on how this is implemented now, not having been in the game for over a year now (or more?). However, I can make a statement on the intent, when I came up with the whole thing. Under the idealized setting in my mind, Nobles would all be struggling against one another, forging alliances and marriages or vying for the resources and power to off one another and gain control over the other nobles lands. Furthermore, the lands themselves were given a certain amount of weight in terms of resources they generated, and power over other lands. Everything is tied together: for example you might control a land which generates slaves, but your biggest enemy might control your water supply.

Governors were given open ended rules on what they could do with their lands. This allowed PCs to choose what they wanted to do. Governor A might cut off the water supply to Governor B's slave-generating lands. Unchecked, this could screw Governor B's livelihood. Governor B forges an alliance with Governor C, who bans all of Governor A's employees and patrons from visiting merchants in their lands. Shortly thereafter, for grins, Governor C hires an assassin to attempt to assassinate and steal the rights to Governor B's slave-generating lands. The cycle continues. Welcome to Armageddon.

It's a cool system, and a lot of really hard work went into making the noble houses of Tuluk all very unique and interesting. I remember, each time I read the documentation for a new one, I thought to myself: "Wow, I want to play one of those guys". "Those guys" were awesome, and there were lots of them.

Much of the system was left open and undefined so that PCs could bumble around, make mistakes, and generally screw shit up. Yes: I was, secretly, kind of hoping the PCs would throw the Tuluki economy out of whack causing massive starvation and famine to wreak havoc across the city-state. That wasn't the actual goal, but it would have been entertaining and a learning experience for everyone.

The whole thing isn't without it's flaws though. It does have some requirements for smooth running:

1) An active playerbase. At all levels. Nobles and Templars are required to do the scheming, while peons are required to do a lot of the dirty work. That said - Tuluk is not Allanak, and nobles in Tuluk can get their hands dirty. Also note that "Active" doesn't have to mean "large". "Large" is good - more players is always more fun, but a small core group of regular players can get a lot accomplished, and germinate the seeds for a popular swing to a new city-state.
2) Active staff. Above all else, Governors were intended to be Lawmakers. Staff involvement is needed in making sure the laws actually happen, and are enforced (though a lot of that responsibility can fall to the PC Templars). Also, staff are needed to
3) Creative and active nobles. Coming up with schemes and "things to do" should be as easy as deciding "I want that land for myself". It's coming up with the "how" that's the interesting part, as well as the gumption to go after it in the first place. If nobles don't log in, or are unmotivated to action (they should be - we put very tangible rewards for conflict) then, as someone posted above: nothing happens.

Ideally, the whole thing runs smooth and almost autonomously with 6 nobles (preferably from 6 different houses, but doubling up can be cool), and a couple of Templars. The most important ingreedient, though, is active nobles. Without a large group of active nobles (between 4-6), the whole thing sort of falls apart. It's like playing paintball by yourself. With nobody around to shoot at, things get really dull, quickly. With the right mixture of active nobles and players, RP in Tuluk should be a little like playing "Smear the Queer" with velvet gloves and nice words.

If that's not happening, my guess is that one (or more) of those things isn't really happening. From reading this thread, it sounds like it may be that there aren't enough active PC nobles. Either PCs are MIA, or they've deceased/retired. The whole thing was designed to have 6 active PC nobles. If there aren't 6 active PC nobles, then the original intent behind the whole system is kind of lost, and you can't really say it "doesn't work". It's like saying the copier doesn't work, when there isn't enough paper in it for it to function in the first place.

I suggest some proactive folks jam some more paper into the copier, and let it spin up on 'high' for a while. App for more nobles, and request the staff keep on people that might be going MIA.

All of that said, with this Caveat: I have no idea what the current Staff have planned, are planning, or have changed. It could be that they don't want to maintain a system like this and would rather spend resources getting 2.Arm up and running. Or maybe they're just busy with other things. Or maybe they're very eager to get things cooking up in Tuluk, and just haven't had the opportunity, or are waiting for something "special". In any case: without knowing what's going on Upstairs, really, this post serves no other purpose than to maybe shed some light on the intentions and goals behind the original change (almost two years ago, now), and how things could move forward.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Wha?  How the heck can it be an OOC rule?

EDIT: Well, I suppose it could be on the same level as elves not being allowed to ride.

Yes, it's also an OOC rule. When I played Tuluki nobility, we were informed that it was one of those rules that if we broke it, our character just would be stored for us. I doubt that's changed in the interim.

That, er, doesn't seem quite right.

I understand heavily, heavily discouraging it on an OOC level, because if every noble was the exception to the rule, there would be no rule.  But to outright forbid it seems a bit heavy-handed.  Once in a long while, there must be a noble who isn't quite strong enough to resist that cross-caste taboo love affair, and I'd think emailing the Tuluki Nobility staff ahead of time and saying, "Look, I've been RPing for a while now that my noble has strong enough emotions and a weak enough will to break the taboo" would be enough for them to say, "Okay, but if it's found out, prepare for the consequences."

A basic truth of Armageddon is that "conflict" creates "interest". "Conflict" can be external: a gith attacking you while you mine for sid; A templar shaking you down while you try to smuggle spice across the city. It can be grand: two city states fighting; one race deciding another race doesn't have the right to exist any more. But conflict can also be internal and small: the internal struggle that happens when a spy is asked to betray her employers; or the unrequited love that two star-crossed lovers feel who can never, ever be together.

I mean: whole books and stories have been written about just that small thing right there. I point to Chaucer as an example: the whole notion of Courtly Love could be something which could possibly be explored in Tuluk (perhaps not 100% exactly - but some variant). The Babylon 5 geek in me also might cite the relationship between Delenn and her assistant Lennier as a very "Tuluki" romance between two members of castes who can't be together. The whole idea of becoming a "patron"  could be exploited as a sort of "romantic" connection between two members of a caste. Remember that Tuluk is a city of subtlety, and in that city there are more sophisticated ways of saying "I love you" than boning your aide in the stables.

However, this is also true, and could create a whole different and unique sort of situation.

On the more general topic at hand, if I had more time, I'd gladly, gladly apply for a Tuluki Faithful or Chosen, even with the current restrictions.  My only request would be that enough roles be opened up that there can be a healthy amount of high-society conflict as well as inter-caste conflict.

Of course, I don't have time now, but maybe in a few months?

[Malken]

Ideally, the whole thing runs smooth and almost autonomously with 6 nobles (preferably from 6 different houses, but doubling up can be cool), and a couple of Templars. The most important ingreedient, though, is active nobles. Without a large group of active nobles (between 4-6), the whole thing sort of falls apart. It's like playing paintball by yourself. With nobody around to shoot at, things get really dull, quickly. With the right mixture of active nobles and players, RP in Tuluk should be a little like playing "Smear the Queer" with velvet gloves and nice words.

If that's not happening, my guess is that one (or more) of those things isn't really happening. From reading this thread, it sounds like it may be that there aren't enough active PC nobles. Either PCs are MIA, or they've deceased/retired. The whole thing was designed to have 6 active PC nobles. If there aren't 6 active PC nobles, then the original intent behind the whole system is kind of lost, and you can't really say it "doesn't work". It's like saying the copier doesn't work, when there isn't enough paper in it for it to function in the first place.

Well, that's the reason this post was made, we have 0 active nobles right now, and we had maybe one active in the last year or so (Having played in Tuluk 90% of the time in the last year, I can tell you all of the Chosen nobles who have been around, most of them didn't last longer than
a month or so, and there were only a few numbers of them.. Maybe two or three tops.)

By active noble, I don't count the Hlum one, because, like it was said somewhere in this thread, they don't affect the qynar system.

--- The only solution I see to this is for the Staff to suddenly announce -5- new openings for nobles in Tuluk and not allow any of them in before the five have been chosen. ---

Why do I say that? Because I think that if you keep allowing only one at a time, then it'll just be like previous months, a Chosen will pop in, try to get things moving, then realize that he or she is alone,
sit in the Sanctuary forever looking for partisans, then just get bored and either stop logging in (Making it sound like we actually have Chosens on paper, but not in game), or just retire until the next one comes in
and repeat the whole process..

I think that's a great idea, actually (If I may praise my own ideas), announce that you have openings for 4-5 nobles, take a whole month to select them, they don't allow them in until they've all been chosen and then throw
them into the Tuluki arena and let's see what happens.

[Gimfalisette]

That, er, doesn't seem quite right.

I understand heavily, heavily discouraging it on an OOC level, because if every noble was the exception to the rule, there would be no rule.  But to outright forbid it seems a bit heavy-handed.  Once in a long while, there must be a noble who isn't quite strong enough to resist that cross-caste taboo love affair, and I'd think emailing the Tuluki Nobility staff ahead of time and saying, "Look, I've been RPing for a while now that my noble has strong enough emotions and a weak enough will to break the taboo" would be enough for them to say, "Okay, but if it's found out, prepare for the consequences."

I think they were tired of previous nobles breaking the rule, honestly. Thus, the OOC rule on top of it to really try to get players focused on making -plot- stuff happen.

Also, Tlaloc, thank you for posting. I'm a huge, huge fan of the system that you (with us players helping ) created in the fall of 2006. And I dearly want to see it played to its potential.

[tortall]

Maybe I'm just missing something here, but on the Armageddon website it says Tuluki Nobles are OPEN. No, there isn't currently any staff REQUESTS for Tuluki nobles, but go ahead and send in an app! If they just plain don't want anyone(I don't see why they'd say no with the current non-existantce of them), they'll eventually email you back saying we have no interst. So... SEND IN YOUR APPS! And when you do ask them to post a call for Tuluki nobles. Lots. Six I think is what Tlaloc said was good. More would be fun as well, but when you send in your app, request that they POST about needing nobles. Not everyone reads every single thread and may not know that there is such a huge need. ~shrugs~

[Malken]

I am going to go one step further and add that I also think that Governors should always be given to PCs only, no more virtual anything, if there isn't any Chosen Nobles to
govern the qynar, then it should go one step down and allow an Hlum noble to control part of it, THEN if there's not enough Hlum nobles, you go down one more step
and you allow trusted servants of the Faithfuls to do it, at this point, it would be left for the Faithfuls to decided which citizen of Tuluk would be given governorship, that way
the system would always be on constant motion and working.

It could be explained that if a House fails to generate a decent Governor that year, or if that Governor wasn't public enough (The whole Tuluki nobles being chummy with the commoners
being an important part of the culture) then they just lose face and the governorship passes to someone else.

[Janna]

I'd gladly app a Chosen if the roles ever open up again myself. I find any leadership role fun for the most part.

I do agree with Gimf for the most of it. The -potential- is there to have a fantastic political scene, and have plenty for the PC's in the area to do under said Chosen Lords and Ladies. However, it hasn't been anywhere close to what it was in the time frame Gim gave. The last character I had that spent a decent amount of time in Tuluk saw 1 PC Templar and didn't even -hear- a Chosen's name, let alone actually see one.

[Gimfalisette]

No, there isn't currently any staff REQUESTS for Tuluki nobles, but go ahead and send in an app!

Y'all, I agree with tortall. Go throw in some apps. If nothing else, perhaps it will garner some attention to the issue and an open call for apps.

And again, anyone wanting help with questions like: "Am I ready to play a Tuluki noble? If not, how do I get ready?" is welcome to PM me for advice.

[Ourla]

I am going to go one step further and add that I also think that Governors should always be given to PCs only, no more virtual anything, if there isn't any Chosen Nobles to
govern the qynar, then it should go one step down and allow an Hlum noble to control part of it, THEN if there's not enough Hlum nobles, you go down one more step
and you allow trusted servants of the Faithfuls to do it, at this point, it would be left for the Faithfuls to decided which citizen of Tuluk would be given governorship, that way
the system would always be on constant motion and working.

I heartily endorse the idea of Hlum being given chances to govern territories.

[Jherlen]

Good to see you posting, Tlaloc, it was informative to hear your thoughts. Lemme reply...

1) Mudsex:
4) The Qynar System & Conflict:

You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)

This is exactly the system that was set up with Governances. Nobles can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands. There are (or were), in fact, rules on how to do it.

I can't really make a statement on how this is implemented now, not having been in the game for over a year now (or more?). However, I can make a statement on the intent, when I came up with the whole thing. Under the idealized setting in my mind, Nobles would all be struggling against one another, forging alliances and marriages or vying for the resources and power to off one another and gain control over the other nobles lands. Furthermore, the lands themselves were given a certain amount of weight in terms of resources they generated, and power over other lands. Everything is tied together: for example you might control a land which generates slaves, but your biggest enemy might control your water supply.

I'm aware that was the intent of the system, and that this was supposed to be possible, I just don't think it has been realized in practice. I'm skeptical that it ever could take place without making things far less virtual and having several staff assigned to just this system in Tuluk alone. It seems like without a critical mass of nobility, the whole thing falls apart, as you've said. Even if there is the critical mass and things are running on all cylinders, I still feel like just becoming a governor should be more of an end goal than a gimme at the outset. Once you have your qynar or two, what then? Is the system designed to really let one or two nobles gobble up all the other qynar and become Ruler Of All Tuluk (Except Not Really Because That's Utep And The Templars?) That seems to be the implied objective, but I don't think the design allows it, nor is it even necessarily desireable for playability.

To me it basically seems to want to be like a feudal system, which is cool. The problem is, Tuluk is pretty much already an imperial government, with a very very strong central power. Typically in feudal governments the central authority was weaker and depended on the feudal lords for much of its power. Tuluk and Allanak's templarates both have a supreme monopoly and the nobility are dependent on them for power, not vice versa. To make truly Tuluk into the sort of warring fiefdoms this seems to be, it seems like you'd need to remove the central glue and give the power to the Chosen, not the Faithful.

Now if there was no Legion, and Winrothol, Tenneshi, Lyskae et al had their own private armies and each controlled and gave orders to their blooded members of the Faithful, THAT would be cool. But I'm probably spinning off into the realm of the totally infeasible.

[Gimfalisette]

Even if there is the critical mass and things are running on all cylinders, I still feel like just becoming a governor should be more of an end goal than a gimme at the outset. Once you have your qynar or two, what then? Is the system designed to really let one or two nobles gobble up all the other qynar and become Ruler Of All Tuluk (Except Not Really Because That's Utep and the Templars?) That seems to be the implied objective, but I don't think the design allows it, nor is it even necessarily desireable for playability.

To me it basically seems like a feudal system, which is cool. The problem is, Tuluk is pretty much already an imperial government, with a very very strong central power. Typically in feudal governments the central authority was weaker and depended on the feudal lords for much of its power. Tuluk and Allanak's templarates both have a supreme monopoly and the nobility are dependent on them for power, not vice versa. To make truly Tuluk into the sort of warring fiefdoms this seems to be, it seems like you'd need to remove the central glue and give the power to the Chosen, not the Faithful.

Now if there was no Legion, and Winrothol, Tenneshi, Lyskae et al had their own private armies and each controlled and gave orders to their blooded members of the Faithful, THAT would be cool. But I'm probably spinning off into the realm of the totally infeasible.

With possession of up to 2 qynar, a Chosen Governor is no better or worse than any of his/her peers of the same rank, regardless of whether or not they have a governorship. Status rises with each possession after 2. So there is no "gimme" from the outset. Because having 1 or 2 qynar is effectively the same as having none.

In theory, yes, one noble could possess all the qynar that are given to PCs to govern. (There are additional qynar which will always be VNPC holdings also, so no PC could ever become "ruler of all." Just "ruler of holy crap a lot.")

In Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.

And the power grab by the Chosen which resulted in the qynar system was truly a power grab. The Chosen took not only "title" to the qynar, they also took hold of the money streams from those qynar. Yes, most of it is still passed to the templarate for administrative purposes, but first it passes through the Chosen.

Or at least, that is what I was given to understand about how things work, at the time of the system's implementation.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It sounds like a cool system. Somebody go app some Tuluki nobles. I'd do it but ... uhm, I really am kinda involved right now. And I have an OOC goal to deal with, so I'm going to be involved for some time.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Every time I get a sponsored role, my life falls into some sort of crisis.  It's like my sponsored roles are hexed in some way.

[Jherlen]

With possession of up to 2 qynar, a Chosen Governor is no better or worse than any of his/her peers of the same rank, regardless of whether or not they have a governorship. Status rises with each possession after 2. So there is no "gimme" from the outset. Because having 1 or 2 qynar is effectively the same as having none.

Right, but you still start off with lands to govern without proving yourself rather than having to win them. In my mind that's starting a step too high. I'd rather see competition over who gets to become governors to begin with.

In Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.

I am pretty sure the Lirathan Order will always be more powerful than the Chosen because of all their duties administrating and setting policy for the city, and the Jihaen order will always be more powerful because they control the army and enforce the laws. The Chosen can make whatever laws they please...... but it's up to the templarate to enforce them. Not having the power of enforcement themselves makes them dependent. And I don't think the Legion would tolerate the Chosen making their own private armies of thugs to enforce laws, or at least it hasn't been done yet. So the Chosen may have "legal" authority, but in Zalanthas, laws don't mean much, and they may have money, but the templarate has the swords and the Jihaen judo masters to take it back if it really wanted.

[Nyr]

I organized and expounded on some of the Tuluk documentation that's available to the public more than a few months ago, so I figured I'd chime in on this part at least.

Right, but you still start off with lands to govern without proving yourself rather than having to win them. In my mind that's starting a step too high. I'd rather see competition over who gets to become governors to begin with.

Actually, qynar/striasiri are not granted arbitrarily.  There is a process to acquiring even the first one that IS subject to much conflict and frequently has been subject to much conflict. 
Chosen do not start off with qynar and striasiri already granted.

In Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.

I am pretty sure the Lirathan Order will always be more powerful than the Chosen because of all their duties administrating and setting policy for the city, and the Jihaen order will always be more powerful because they control the army and enforce the laws. The Chosen can make whatever laws they please...... but it's up to the templarate to enforce them. Not having the power of enforcement themselves makes them dependent. And I don't think the Legion would tolerate the Chosen making their own private armies of thugs to enforce laws, or at least it hasn't been done yet. So the Chosen may have "legal" authority, but in Zalanthas, laws don't mean much, and they may have money, but the templarate has the swords and the Jihaen judo masters to take it back if it really wanted.

The Chosen make laws for their Qynar and Striasiri and it is up to the Chosen to enforce those laws, not the Templarate.

[Clearsighted]

Arm only needs one centre of political intrigue and striving unsuccessfully for two just ends up detracting from the game overall. I don't mind where this centre is but seeing as virtually all of the history in Arm is going to be wiped -anyway- with the advent of Arm 2 I think that the Imms, right now, could perform a pretty radical piece of surgery on the current incarnation of Arm and cut out one of the major city-states with some major game event and open up a bunch of Houses to 10+ nobles and 4 templars in the remaining city-state. Then just sit back and watch the level of political intrigue and conflict soar for a sustained period of time. I just don't think that Gimfalisette's proposed solution of opening up a few Chosen slots is the solution to the problem.

I think that's a great idea. It'd be interesting, just before the end, to see what it would be like with everyone funneled into roughly the same area. It would give us a chance to see if it really added to or detracted from the surrounding RP. It would be a nice little experiment, in any case.

[Gimfalisette]

In Tuluk, the nobility is -not- dependent on the templarate for power. They have an equal voice in the Triumvirate. The situation, politically, is very different from in Allanak. The noble houses in Tuluk all have their own method of making coin, whereas in Allanak many of them are dependent on the senate for grants.

I am pretty sure the Lirathan Order will always be more powerful than the Chosen because of all their duties administrating and setting policy for the city, and the Jihaen order will always be more powerful because they control the army and enforce the laws. The Chosen can make whatever laws they please...... but it's up to the templarate to enforce them. Not having the power of enforcement themselves makes them dependent. And I don't think the Legion would tolerate the Chosen making their own private armies of thugs to enforce laws, or at least it hasn't been done yet. So the Chosen may have "legal" authority, but in Zalanthas, laws don't mean much, and they may have money, but the templarate has the swords and the Jihaen judo masters to take it back if it really wanted.

The Chosen make laws for their Qynar and Striasiri and it is up to the Chosen to enforce those laws, not the Templarate.

Not to mention...the crisis of fall 2006 was all about money. It's important to never discount money as the big factor in power. Without money, the Jihaens lose their army. Without the backing of the Jihaens, the Lirathans are physically vulnerable. And contrary to appearances, the Jihaens and Lirathans are not necessarily a united front.

[Tlaloc]

Just to chime in again on some things that came up:

1) Originally (Nyr's post makes me feel things are different now), Northern nobles started out as governors. The thinking behind this was to give nobles something "to do" right out of the box, much like Templars have duties right out of the box. In the same vein that you don't make Templars go RP their way through the Templar Academy (even though it could be cool), Governors of the Qynar weren't to be required to go through the original motions of grasping for power. They were already assumed to have been given the titles by their Houses for whatever IC reason could be justified. If all the Qynar/Striasiri were spoken for, THEN the PCs may have to try and figure something out on their own.

In short: PCs wouldn't be applying for "Noble" positions. They'd be applying for "Governor" positions. The difference in wording is subtle, but the term "noble" can imply a foppish character with nothing to do but gossip and worry about how to mudsex his aide. "Governor" implies a PC with strict duties and responsibilities from the beginning. That isn't to say that a governor can't be a foppish character with nothing to do but gossip and worry about how to mudsex his aide, but the idea would be that those characteristics become "Flavor" for the true "Role": that of a Governor of Tuluk. This is like how you can have flaming tranny Templars (and there have been a couple). They might be flaming trannies - but they're still Templars, first and foremost and they start the game as full on "Templars".

2) Originally, Hlum nobles were also to get a piece of the Qynar/Striasiri cake. These lands would be "gifted" to the newly decorated Hlum, typically from one or more of the other nobles who were governing (a gift from the Sun King). This would create an IC justification for Surif nobles to hate the pants out of the Hlum (beyond being commoner scum who thinks he's a noble), and would probably scare the ever living bejesus out of the Hlum. This would create interesting tensions, as a Hlum who manages to get Tenneshi lands "gifted" to him might suddenly have a friend in Winrothol, but find himself at the mercy of Tenneshi and Dasari nobles who are now vying to take his lands. The Winrothol "friend" may, or may not, be entirelly altruistic, either.

3)

To me it basically seems to want to be like a feudal system, which is cool. The problem is, Tuluk is pretty much already an imperial government, with a very very strong central power. Typically in feudal governments the central authority was weaker and depended on the feudal lords for much of its power. Tuluk and Allanak's templarates both have a supreme monopoly and the nobility are dependent on them for power, not vice versa. To make truly Tuluk into the sort of warring fiefdoms this seems to be, it seems like you'd need to remove the central glue and give the power to the Chosen, not the Faithful.

It is, pretty much, a feudal system. Afterall: Muk Utep is a King, right? My thinking behind Tuluk (at the time - again, things may be different now) was, in fact, to decentralize much of the City-State's military. As Nyr posted, much of the law-enforcement withiin a Qynar/Striasiri falls to the noble's House. The way I always envisioned the noble houses of Tuluk was kind of like the Landsraad in the Dune series (in fact, the struggle for spice on Arrakis is an almost perfect example of how the system should work). All these noble houses actually would have standing armies of their own (of a sort), and the ability to at least flex their muscle somehow in a local fashion. I thought the idea that two noble Houses could go to war on one another was a neat one - and one I wouldn't have minded seeing get played out in Tuluk (either through the use of thieves and assassins or full on combat in the streets or wilderness).

Once you have your qynar or two, what then? Is the system designed to really let one or two nobles gobble up all the other qynar and become Ruler Of All Tuluk (Except Not Really Because That's Utep And The Templars?) That seems to be the implied objective, but I don't think the design allows it, nor is it even necessarily desireable for playability.

Yes, actually. This was part of the exact thinking behind this. On the off chance that one noble somehow managed to get their hands on all the titles, they could then sit back and be Ruler Of All Tuluk. Part of the philosophy behind this was something that Halaster once said: no PC can ever really fuck up the game so much that the Staff can't fix it. If a PC Noble managed to get to the point where they were basically In Charge of Tuluk, then by all means Rule, dude, Rule. Of course, that guy would have some problems: at least 5 other nobles/houses would be gunning for him (now on a unified front - and that's not counting NPCs) - and those are just the enemies the noble knows about.

Now if there was no Legion, and Winrothol, Tenneshi, Lyskae et al had their own private armies and each controlled and gave orders to their blooded members of the Faithful, THAT would be cool. But I'm probably spinning off into the realm of the totally infeasible.

That's a really cool idea, imo. Probably not feasable with the way things are set up - but still a really neat idea. Another one of the concepts from way back when was that the Templarate and the Militia were bound by the laws made up by the Governors of the area. So, yes, if my Noble decides that nobody can wear shoes in the Red Sun Commons, then the Militia would be dispatched to assist with checking to make sure people leave their shoes at the gates of the Commons. That said: this could seriously piss off the Templars, having to deal with frivolous laws, so a wise noble would need to show some sort of prudence and be selective about their requests to the Templarate.

Unwise nobles might find their lands "Gifted" to a Hlum, or may simply forget to wake up one morning.

Again - just a few thoughts.

[a strange shadow]

The potential to govern a qynar or striasiri would add SO MUCH that is missing to the Hlum role.

I strongly feel the staff should reconsider the decision to bar them from such.

[Gimfalisette]

The potential to govern a qynar or striasiri would add SO MUCH that is missing to the Hlum role.

I strongly feel the staff should reconsider the decision to bar them from such.

Not allowing Hlum nobility to govern is anti-conflict...allowing them to govern would be pro-conflict. Conflict drives plots. Plots are good for the game. Therefore, the only conclusion is that denying them governance is bad for the game.

To put it most strongly

[Vessol]

The potential to govern a qynar or striasiri would add SO MUCH that is missing to the Hlum role.

I strongly feel the staff should reconsider the decision to bar them from such.

Not allowing Hlum nobility to govern is anti-conflict...allowing them to govern would be pro-conflict. Conflict drives plots. Plots are good for the game. Therefore, the only conclusion is that denying them governance is bad for the game.

To put it most strongly

It might be contested but I think the fact that Hlum nobles can't have children that benefit from their actions is kind of unrealistic. Or well. Put it this way. In a way, most of human society is bent in a way to provide for current and future children. We go to college to get good jobs to support and raise a good family to make a good life for our offspring. It's genetic, we want our offspring to thrive and pass on our genetics. The fact that Hlum's really can't pass on their genetics and privileges to their children kind of lessens it IMO. Hlums should be definitely lesser nobles, less rights and lower the other kind(can't remember name).

[Lizzie]

I personally feel that giving Hlums anything new, is giving *commoners* entitlements that previously only belonged to the nobility. Because, Sun King's blessing or not, Hlums are still *from* the commoner caste. Their blood is not noble blood, and their nobility can't be inherited. When they die, their children will still be the -same- commoners that they were when they were born, and that they had been their entire lives. Not bastard nobles - just plain ordinary commoners.

It is for that reason that I feel Hlums should not be "gifted" city land as a benefit of being a Hlum. If a particular Hlum has earned a gift as a result of some kind of extraordinary act on behalf of the Ivory, then they would get it, just like any commoner might some day hope to acquire property as the result of some kind of extraordinary act on behalf of the Ivory.

I -DO- however still feel, even more strongly than before in light of all this information from Nyr and Tlaloc, that the nobility of Tuluk should absolutely positively be allowed to take concubines, form romantic and/or close personal relationships of a sexual OR platonic nature...among the upper eschelons of commoner society. That is, the Bard Circle family members, Greater Merchant House family members, and the Hlum commoner nobility.

Forget about mudsex. Assume everyone is fading, and mudsex isn't an issue. Because it really isn't. The issue is creating characters who have more to them than just politics, diplomacy, and "good breeding." Relationships are the fundamental point of humanity. We live to form them, and if conflicts and "alliances" are the only options, then we are missing a HUGE part of our social structure and we lose interest in the role.

[tortall]

Amen.

[Barzalene]

I don't believe the issue is mudsex, which is a completely ooc thing. I believe the problem is sex. The IC sex. If they relaxed the rule, the world wouldn't end. Maybe more people would play nobles. But, I do think something would be lost.
Maybe the rule about storing if you do it, should be lightened up, so that even if people are doing it, they're not doing it openly and losing that nuance of Tuluki culture.