The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility

[Gimfalisette]

Players are noticing lately that there is very little activity in the area of Tuluki nobility. Surif nobility appears to be nearly entirely absent from the social scene due to lack of players in those roles, and Surif nobility in particular is very important to the political life and roleplay of Tuluk (as distinguished from Hlum nobility).

I'm really enjoying Tuluk these days.

My only complaint is I wish there were some Tuluki nobles.
4 would be perfect.
1 would be an improvement.

No kidding.. <snip> How is the patronage system supposed to work with no one to be patrons of?

It is very lonely to play a noble in Tuluk. Especially without other nobles to hobnob with.

It has been over a year now (since February 2007 by my observation) since there have been adequate numbers of active PC Surif nobles to do things such as:

-- Patronize bards and other Tuluki citizens.
-- Throw RPTs.
-- Run the qynar system and the very potentially-juicy political intrigue that is attendant on such activity.
-- Purchase high-end items from GMH and other merchants.

The result is a city that feels like it's full of only commoners--a flat society where there is almost no political activity, nothing brewing plot-wise at the higher levels, and no point to some characters. (Circle bards especially are highly impacted, but licensed sneaky types are also under-utilized when there are not enough active nobles.)

When I played a Tuluki noble from October 2006 to February 2007, there were 5 to 6 active nobles that entire time--this was the "Tuluki renaissance" period when all the nobles houses were opened up for play and we created the qynar system. It was wonderful and amazing and fun, we had much scheming to do against one another, we involved a lot of players under us, we ran a lot of plots and RPTs, we gave the templars a good run for their money. It was really fun to play amongst that many nobles because we could make friends, lovers, and enemies of one another--which really can't be done with noble-commoner PC interaction. After my character died, it seemed like the imms consciously decided not to replace Tuluki nobles with new characters--I assume due to the dwindling playerbase at the time, where we dropped about 100 unique players per week and Tuluk was nearly a ghost town.

However, our player count is much higher again now. I submit that it is time to end the languishing of Tuluki nobility, and again see at -least- 4 active, peak-time Tuluki noble PCs so that Tuluk can once more be a political playland. There are plenty of minion-type PCs in Tuluk, now we just need enough nobles on top of the pile to use them.

[Boggis]

Arm's current playerbase size doesn't support having an adequate hierarchy of templarate / nobility in both Allanak and Tuluk simultaneously in my opinion. There's just not enough of us to fill the necessary roles as more nobles means more hiring needs. If we opened up more nobility slots I think we'd just end up with Houses having very few employees and these new nobles would be bored out of their minds as they wouldn't be able to achieve anything without having hires to do the dirty work. Without wishing to derail the thread too much what Arm needs, in my opinion, is one city-state with 5-7 nobles and 2-3 templars. This would allow for Houses to have hire properly and compete with each other in a more meaningful way. While the rebirth of Tuluk some years ago was nice in that it gave a centre of civilisation with a completely different culture it was, unfortunately, the death-knell for sustained local political intrigue and conflict.

[Barzalene]

Are there people out there who were interested in these roles but waiting for the right time to take them? Are the imms interested in supporting these roles at this time?
If the answer is yes on both fronts then it's just a matter of hooking the right players up with the right imms.
If the answer is no, then it's a matter of what we can do to create a better climate to support the side of the equation that's not ready.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Tuluk would have worked much better if Utep had just stepped on out his tower, kept his military, and been the absolute ruler, with no Nobles to jockey about. A peasant state under the fist of the military.

It would certianly have defined it from Allanak even -more-. And everything but patronship would have fit in perfectly.

Frankly, this could still happen....

[mansa]

I think people don't know what is possible or what even to do with a noble in tuluk

[Gimfalisette]

Arm's current playerbase size doesn't support having an adequate hierarchy of templarate / nobility in both Allanak and Tuluk simultaneously in my opinion. There's just not enough of us to fill the necessary roles as more nobles means more hiring needs. If we opened up more nobility slots I think we'd just end up with Houses having very few employees and these new nobles would be bored out of their minds as they wouldn't be able to achieve anything without having hires to do the dirty work.

Tuluk is not going away any time soon. Since Tuluk is not going away any time soon, there needs to be some kind of solution for mundane commoner play within its walls; currently there are almost no nobles to provide plots, interaction, and quests to licensed sneakies, bards, and other Tuluk-unique character concepts.

Tuluki nobles do not necessarily hire a lot of employees. When I played, in fact, we had a very severe restriction on the quantity of employees we could hire (2). I assume there is some restriction of this type still in place. What Tuluki nobles do which is very unique and beneficial to the playerbase as a whole is take partisans. Partisans are indie characters with a lot of freedom who are hooked into the political interplay of the city via their connection to a patron.

Also, a good player in a noble spot can get a lot done with only 2 employees and a handful of partisans. Really it's not that hard. I ran RPTs, built a shop, plotted assassinations, and kept my people very busy. And this is at a time when we had FEWER players than we do right now, and certainly many fewer characters in Tuluk.

Are there people out there who were interested in these roles but waiting for the right time to take them? Are the imms interested in supporting these roles at this time?
If the answer is yes on both fronts then it's just a matter of hooking the right players up with the right imms.
If the answer is no, then it's a matter of what we can do to create a better climate to support the side of the equation that's not ready.

I think people don't know what is possible or what even to do with a noble in tuluk

I've helped a few people over the last couple years come to understand Tuluk well enough so that they could play bards of the Circle, or nobles, or just regular Amos commoners. I'd be happy to help anyone who thinks they'd like to make a try at the job of playing a noble. Playing a Tuluki noble is HARD (like any leadership role), no doubt about it; but can be very rewarding. Questions can even be asked in this thread, and answers provided, if it will help folks gear up for playing competent nobles.

[Melody]

Also, a good player in a noble spot can get a lot done with only 2 employees and a handful of partisans.

There are currently 6 nobles and three templars in Allanak. Assume they each employ two people, which is a vast underestimate, that's 27 players in total.

At the time Tuluk's politics was simmering, I believe Allanak was suffering. I agree with Boggis that there does not seem to be enough players to go around and fill all the spots.

[Gimfalisette]

There are currently 6 nobles and three templars in Allanak. Assume they each employ two people, which is a vast underestimate, that's 27 players in total.

Which is not even 10% of the current playerbase. Allanak generally supports about 35 to 40% of the playerbase, Tuluk about 25 to 30%. I'm not seeing the issue.

Why should Allanak be the only city-state that's got adequate leadership to provide political play?

Having played extensively in both cities, and leadership in both cities, I am weary of the argument that only one or the other (usually Allanak) should be allowed to flourish. People just need to get over the rah-rahism.

[Malken]

We're over-complicating things.

Allow Chosen Lords and Ladies to have sex with commoners like they can in Allanak and you'll see a whole bunch of them suddenly appearing.

I know my playerbase.

Another problem is that we only see one Chosen once in a blue moon, they appear, there's no other Chosens to play with, they last two weeks or so, then they store.

Then a couple of months later the same thing happen with another Chosen.

In the last year or so, I can think of only one Chosen who played regularly and seemed to enjoy his role.

You wonder why the Grey Hunt is never that popular? It's probably due to the fact that no one wants to end up being a Chosen in Tuluk.. I told someone as a joke
the other day that I would consider it when I'm tired of my character and wants him stored.

[Barzalene]

Be that as it may, the playerbase is fluid.
There are a finite # of spots that can be filled. That doesn't mean that if people want to play some roles and other people would like those roles filled that that should be invalidated because it would inconvenience the people who would rather play in the other city.
If that were true we could all cry that there are so many nobles in Nak.

[Dakurus]

We'll wait for the tuluki noble staff to weigh in on what's available.

That said, the point has been made, and it's valid that because of the freedom the playerbase enjoys to play in so many places, positions, races, and clans there are never enough to fill all possible positions to a robust level. This and other factors, such as solid leadership, playtimes, player population fluxuation, and such, lead to cyclical population and activity, often by clan, area, and such.
There are no plans that I'm aware of to shut down half the world, to further populate the other half, even though it's been suggested to various degrees. We don't believe in forcing you to play a certain race, class, or clan, and I don't think in general folks would appreciate such a shift in policy, even though there could be some benefits to it.

[Gimfalisette]

We'll wait for the tuluki noble staff to weigh in on what's available.

Thank you, Dakurus, I'd love to hear their input on the situation (and I'm sure other players would also).

That said, the point has been made, and it's valid that because of the freedom the playerbase enjoys to play in so many places, positions, races, and clans there are never enough to fill all possible positions to a robust level. This and other factors, such as solid leadership, playtimes, player population fluxuation, and such, lead to cyclical population and activity, often by clan, area, and such.

This is, of course, true. However, the entire game and also Tuluk have been in an upswing for the past 6 months or more; thus, my assertion that this is a very good time to put some more Tuluki nobles in place, as there are plenty of minions for them to use--and plenty of minions who are going unused right now, with no other outlet. (Seriously, it totally sucks to play a Tuluki bard when there are no nobles around to be patrons. BTDT, it's a no-fun bummer.)

[Clearsighted]

Arm's current playerbase size doesn't support having an adequate hierarchy of templarate / nobility in both Allanak and Tuluk simultaneously in my opinion. There's just not enough of us to fill the necessary roles as more nobles means more hiring needs. If we opened up more nobility slots I think we'd just end up with Houses having very few employees and these new nobles would be bored out of their minds as they wouldn't be able to achieve anything without having hires to do the dirty work. Without wishing to derail the thread too much what Arm needs, in my opinion, is one city-state with 5-7 nobles and 2-3 templars. This would allow for Houses to have hire properly and compete with each other in a more meaningful way. While the rebirth of Tuluk some years ago was nice in that it gave a centre of civilisation with a completely different culture it was, unfortunately, the death-knell for sustained local political intrigue and conflict.

I know many others consider even the idea of having one main city state to be heresy (and if it hasn't happened by now, is unlikely to), yet I can't help but completely agree.

[Gimfalisette]

And in case anyone who's reading this is having that vague tickling that says, "Hey, maybe I should app to play a Tuluki noble?":

What's Cool About Playing A Tuluki Surif Noble

-- You get a stipend.
-- You get a nifty estate.
-- You get to govern a qynar or two, which is a potential basis for a HUGE amount of interesting plot stuff.
-- You can't screw commoners, but you can screw infertile VNPC sex slaves who are kept constantly locked inside your estate, just waiting for your no-strings pleasure.
-- You get to read and write sirihish.
-- Tuluki nobles can engage in skill-building quite extensively: There have been crafting nobles, combat leader nobles, ranger-y nobles, etc. This is stylistically very, very different from Allanaki nobles, because Tuluki nobles are EXPECTED to be competent people, not lazy fops.
-- Tuluki nobles can leave the city quite a bit for various purposes, and don't need to have some big RPT reason to do so, nor multiple units of Byn as escort.
-- You can sit at the bar in the Sanc, or the Firestorm, or even the Tooth. Yes, sit at the bar with the commoners, and actually talk to them and socialize like a normal PC. The massive social separation between nobles and commoners that's seen in Allanak just is not necessary in Tuluk, because of the cross-caste sexual taboo.

[Vessol]

In the past few years I've played with some great and extremely well-played Tuluki Nobles. I can see little reason to just throw in a towel and say "We don't have enough players for it."

I think that the -main- reason there seems to be a slow down lately IG of characters and plots is due to many players going back to college/high school and having less time to play until they get their schedule down.

[staggerlee]

I seriously applaud efforts like this to turn bitching into constructive conversation and action!

And in that spirit, as tempted as I am to get into the holes in the 'multiple centres dilute the player base and ruin the game' theory, I don't think that was the intended purpose of this thread and isn't even on the table as an option.

I agree with the OP.  Tuluk feels like it has a lot of unrealized potential. I can't really speak to what the reality of the situation is or what it would actually take to improve it, since all I'm working on is experiential data and assumptions. I can however speculate, and my feeling is that 4-6 active nobles could really stir things up, create more opportunities in Tuluk, allow for the population to expand and remain high, and create opportunities for conflict and cooperation between the city states.   Fluctuations in populations and the entire player base can be expected, but the resulting excitement from something like that might actually draw and keep players we wouldn't otherwise have access to.

It just doesn't feel to me like the documentation and possibility of that particular region of the world is being realized, and that's a damn shame considering the quality of what's there, the quality of the players and staff involved, and the work that's gone into the history, environment and culture. 

Now for all I know there are some awesome and active nobles up there, but if there are I have neither seen them or heard about them. If that's the case then apologies to them.  I might just not 'get' Tuluk, as I haven't played there much.  Still, it seems to me that the source of much of the conflict, plots and action in the game are as a result of hierarchy, player leaders and competition between players and organizations.    If everyone is roughly the same social class things are going to be a lot easier and quieter. 

[Boggis]

Tuluk is not going away any time soon. Since Tuluk is not going away any time soon, there needs to be some kind of solution for mundane commoner play within its walls; currently there are almost no nobles to provide plots, interaction, and quests to licensed sneakies, bards, and other Tuluk-unique character concepts.

I still don't believe we can really support the two happening properly at the same time. If you'd played back when Allanak was the only real centre of political play I think you might see where I'm coming from. Back then there were usually 2-3 templars and usually a couple of nobles each in Borsail, Oash, Tor and Fale (less so). Throw into that mix Kadian, Salarri, Kuraci and Nenyuki family members. Then add in the Guild and the Byn. It was a proper snake pit with all sorts of plots and sub-plots going on. There was always action and something going on. Now, we're too diversified and the playerbase is spread too thin to cover all the roles even semi-adequately. When Allanak is hopping Tuluk is suffering and vice versa. This isn't "rah rahism" as you blithely dimiss it. This is just my opinion based on 8+ years play and I believe that the overall level of sustained political intrigue dropped immensely when Tuluk came into play. I'm not anti-Tuluk - I think Tuluk would be a very interesting place to play in if it was the only centre of political play. I just don't think we can do it justice currently. 

Also, a good player in a noble spot can get a lot done with only 2 employees and a handful of partisans. Really it's not that hard. I ran RPTs, built a shop, plotted assassinations, and kept my people very busy. And this is at a time when we had FEWER players than we do right now, and certainly many fewer characters in Tuluk.

Yes, there may be times when the pieces come together for a while and things happen. It's unsustainable though given our numbers in my experience. Opening up a few noble slots isn't going to be the answer to the problem of the over-diversification of the playerbase. Simply put my opinion is that when you put a large number of players in one location they will automatically start to come into conflict with each other. You don't even need a "good noble" to stir things up. They'll just happen. Spread the playerbase out and you end up depending on solid leadership to kick things into life for a while as players tend to cooperate more when there's fewer of them around. Having said all that this re-concentration of players isn't going to happen in Arm and I'm sure there'd be many players who wouldn't want it to happen so I think we'll end up just ticking along with the usual ebb and flow of play from place to place. Tuluk will have its time again and people will ask why Allanak doesn't have any nobles.

[Malken]

First of all, I hate Allanak. I never want to play in Allanak except when I'm in between two Tuluki characters, so let's not try to derail this conversation that way.

I can easily count nearly twenty five different characters playing regularly in Tuluk these days, so I'm sure that we could easily get three more to play nobles, IF NOBLES IN TULUK WERE AN INTERESTING ROLES.

I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying that if not many are applying or asking why there's no opening for Tuluki nobles, then maybe it's because it's not appealing to the majority of our playerbase.

So when something isn't appealing, we can try and make it better.. That is something that could be made better ICly, just like some current changes are happening right now in Tuluk.

This is my perfect Tuluki political setting, as you'll see, it doesn't require a whole bunch of players:

- 1 active Faithful Lord
- 1 active Faithful Lady
- 3 active Chosen Lords or Ladies (so that if one of them hates your PC, then you have the chance to find backup with another Chosen, and three allows them to mingle amongst each others and plot.)

That's all! 5 active characters is all that's needed.

[Gimfalisette]

Now, we're too diversified and the playerbase is spread too thin to cover all the roles even semi-adequately. When Allanak is hopping Tuluk is suffering and vice versa...I believe that the overall level of sustained political intrigue dropped immensely when Tuluk came into play. I'm not anti-Tuluk - I think Tuluk would be a very interesting place to play in if it was the only centre of political play. I just don't think we can do it justice currently.

The problem with your logic is that you are assuming that the current playerbase is all there is. Yet, we are currently growing and have now approximately the same number of players we did when there were 5 active nobles in Tuluk, and at least 4 active nobles in Allanak. (The time period when I played a Tuluki noble.)

It's also important to remember that limiting options to the playerbase is not, in and of itself, growth-promoting. The opposite is true; the more options people have, and the better-marketed those options are, the more likely they are to purchase. (This is why corporations are always putting out new products.)

A lot of newbies go through Tuluk; either on their first character because it sounds "easier" than Allanak, or another early character when they find out you can't hunt as an indie in Allanak. We are doing them a disservice by not providing the full range of opportunities, interactions, and culture-exposure in Tuluk.

Tuluk will have its time again and people will ask why Allanak doesn't have any nobles.

In my ARM experience thus far, Allanak has never had a drought of so few nobles, for so long, as Tuluk has. AFAIK, the number of active Tuluki nobles has not been higher than 3 at any time since February 2007, and has more often been 1 or 2. And of the 1 or 2, only 1 really very active. Whereas in Allanak, same timeframe, the lowest number of nobles I've seen is 2, fairly active, and more often 4+, all active.

Note that a year ago, when we had a much-reduced playerbase, I wouldn't have said we needed new Tuluki nobles, because at that time we did NOT have the playerbase to support them. But now we do. And it's time.

[Lizzie]

Melody wrote:

There are currently 6 nobles and three templars in Allanak. Assume they each employ two people, which is a vast underestimate, that's 27 players in total.

Well then here's a novel idea: force the least active templar, and the three least active nobles to retire, or kill them off along with their 2 aides each. That's 4 potential noble/templars for Tuluk, plus 8 potential new tuluki aids/employees/partisans. 12 new Tulukis to contribute to actual Tuluk RP, instead of tavern-sitting and idling and waiting for someone with the authority to do something interesting.

Even more fun with my math...it's 4 LESS people who insist on taking roles that demand their active participation and never log in, or log in and idle for hours, that the game has to deal with. AND...those employees of those people, who are now stored or killed off with their employers, can breath a HUGE sigh of relief, and apply for the *active* noble/templar roles so desperately needed in Tuluk.

[Gimfalisette]

Guys, it's not a zero-sum game. Nothing needs to be taken away from or changed in Allanak. Allanak is fine.

Tuluk isn't fine, it's what needs to be fixed at the moment. Fixing Tuluk doesn't mean nerfing Allanak.

[Clearsighted]

It's interesting how people say that Tuluk has never reached its full potential. One would think, that by this stage in the game, it would have at one time. For all intents and purposes, it is a far less restrictive environment. Nobles can be active doing stuff, RP more with commoners or buddy up to them. Commoners can even rise to nobility. The Templars are 'generally' more benevolent. The hunting is much easier by an order of magnitude.

In short, Tuluk has every conceivable advantage, yet there are still those who say it has never reached its potential or attracted the sustained playerbase of Nak. Which is to all intents and purposes, a much more lethal, unfriendly environment where the nobles are far more restricted in their interactions.

I wonder why that is. And it's not just because Allanak is more familiar. For heaven's sake, Tuluks been open for years and the game is nearing the end of its lifespan as a whole, so it can't be just because people are attached to Nak. If anything, the people who've been around Nak the longest, I've found, are more ready to go up there just for a change of pace.

So what exactly makes Tuluk less appealing? It'd be rather sad if the sole reason for the disparity was the lack of mudsex opportunities. Afterall, there are virtually no mudsex opportunities in say, the T'zai Byn (except the bad kind) and its never had a shortage of those willing to step up as leaders.

You would think that the idea of being an quasi hunter + noble with untold riches would appeal to more.

[a strange shadow]

I think the flaw is in the way Tuluki society is set up. No offense to those who worked so hard on it, but its documented traditions are too rigid in some places and too convoluted in others for the majority of the playerbase to fully understand, take advantage of, and incorporate. It is a case of something sounding good in theory, but not working in practice.

[Gimfalisette]

I think the flaw is in the way Tuluki society is set up. No offense to those who worked so hard on it, but its documented traditions are too rigid in some places and too convoluted in others for the majority of the playerbase to fully understand, take advantage of, and incorporate. It is a case of something sounding good in theory, but not working in practice.

I definitely think that's part of it. The documentation is hard to understand, it's easy to get the traditions wrong, some of the docs are buried in places on the website where no one will ever find them, and often even folks who have played in Tuluk a lot still have knowledge gaps.

There are a few other issues. Tuluk is decried by many as "ez mode" or "fluffy" or "girly." It's "not really Armageddon" to those who believe that the Byn is the only valid expression of Zalanthan life. This idea prevents many players from giving Tuluk a fair shake.

Prior to the change to the qynar system, Tuluk also suffered a serious lack of built-in conflict in the upper rungs of society. Compare to Allanak: Blue-robe templars are all the same rank and almost always from the Ministry of War. That means they are in direct competition with one another. In Tuluk, newbie templars may or may not be in any kind of competition with one another; conflict lacks. And with the nobility, prior to the qynar system, Tuluki nobles came either from Tenneshi or Winrothol, no other houses, which completely flattened competition out. It's not as inviting to compete with someone from your own clan. There's much more potential for conflict under the qynar system, with all the houses open for play.

And yes, I do think that the cut-off of potential for relationships between nobles and commoners in Tuluk, while it has the good effect of preventing nobles from spending all their time mudsexing, does present a barrier to people. It just seems to be difficult for many players to figure out how to build meaningful, interesting relationships between PCs when there is no possibility for mudsex. Sad truth.

There are other small issues, too...there are some players who vehemently hate Tuluk's layout, which is admittedly awkward in some ways. And such players refuse to play there at all.

[Lizzie]

It just seems to be difficult for many players to figure out how to build meaningful, interesting relationships between PCs when there is no possibility for mudsex. Sad truth.

I think it's a sad partial truth. The bigger truth, is that there is no possibility for ANY romantic intimacy between nobles PCs and non-noble PCs in Tuluk. According to the docs, the very -idea- of a noble being romantically attracted to a commoner is repulsive, and both nobles and commoners alike would be equally repulsed by it.

I really think this puts a HUGE damper on things, because even among players who fade on a regular basis (including myself), romance, sex, and emotional intimacy provide a more balanced 3-dimensional character. If I'm playing a noble who is only allowed to be romantically interested in other nobles, and there is no other noble PC to interact with (let alone become romantically interested in), then my character will eventually feel very flat to me, and I will lose interest. Not because I'm not mudsexing. But rather, because I'm not allowed to play a character with sexual/romantic interests (forget about activities- I'm talking about just interests) outside the VNPC population. I mean, forget about being romantically interested in any of the templars. That is just about as much an option as being interested in a Senior Salarr Agent. Which is to say, it isn't an option.

I find that silly, and limiting to the extreme.