The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility

[Gimfalisette]

So, while I don't know, and I wouldn't think our current group of templars are guilty of this, it's something they should be monitoring themselves for. -You have to let your darlings be endangered. It's how society works. You can kill anyone with a license. And if your job is to sell those licenses you sell them. And you keep your mouth shut. Because even though there are a thousand ways to justify protecting your interests it waters down the playing experience on a whole.

If there was enough political pressure, and PC templars knew that PC nobles were watching them closely for signs of obvious favoritism and gaming the system...see where I'm going? Yet another point in favor of having more PC nobles. Without sufficient PC nobles, the whole system just doesn't work right.

[Gimfalisette]

In fact...I am imagining the prospect of a Tuluki noble hiring a PC bard to craft a sardonic song about how Faithful Lady Amosette is too "honorable" to sell a license, such a good girl she is...and how very FOND she is of the proposed target, OH so FOND in some very interesting way...

Srsly, you guys, someone play these roles plz

[a strange shadow]

The problem with that scenario is frequently that some players who don't understand the system would target the bard rather than the noble in response, and a lot of PC bards aren't feeling suicidal. It boils down to just not understanding politics in the north, I guess, and a lack of PCs with which to politik with. It is very hard to remain interested in maintaining a visible presence in the northlands when all you can do at the bar is have stilted conversation with people of separate castes who (mostly) don't know how to react to you like a character, rather than a role.

[Gimfalisette]

The problem with that scenario is frequently that some players who don't understand the system would target the bard rather than the noble in response, and a lot of PC bards aren't feeling suicidal. It boils down to just not understanding politics in the north, I guess, and a lack of PCs with which to politik with. It is very hard to remain interested in maintaining a visible presence in the northlands when all you can do at the bar is have stilted conversation with people of separate castes who (mostly) don't know how to react to you like a character, rather than a role.

All true.

[Delstro]

Lizzie, the problem with your post about not getting licenses, goes against what Tuluk is. From my experience, getting a license is a death sentence. The main reason I havn't apped a sponsored role is because I got an account note a long, long, long time ago.

Dynamic and self-motivating, yes. Subtle, they are not.

That sums it up. I am not subtle enough to be a major player. Or so I think.

[Lizzie]

What I meant about me never having gotten a license, is that I have never played an actual criminal type character in Tuluk. None of my northern characters have ever murdered anyone, or picked a lock, or even played with the "steal" command. So I've never needed a license. I just wanted to make sure y'all knew that, it was a caveat. It was a "my experience includes things OTHER than actually getting a license" kind of thing.

[Jherlen]

I think this is an interesting thread. I'm sad I got in on it late, because many of the points I would have made have already been said.

I can definitely sympathize with Malken's thoughts on the Grey Hunt. It is, unless you are very dedicated to a role, AND have very large amounts of time to dedicate to the game, AND are an extremely devoted self-starter who can make plots and ride out some terms of low activity in Tuluk, not a very playable choice to play a Tuluki Chosen.

Ideally, the caste system in Tuluk would segment the population such that Chosen schmooze and hobnob with other Chosen and to some extent the Faithful, and move in those social circles. The tenets of "subtlety", political plotting, sneakyness, etc. that Tuluk thrives on all kind of assume that there will be other players on the same level as you to be subtle with and plot against. If everyone in Tuluk was a Chosen of one of the Houses and in competition with one another, and if there were always 4+ Lirathans and 4+ Jihaens in Tuluk who could compete against one another for influence and favor inside their own Order, I think the system would work great. Unfortunately, instead of a wide horizontal playing field, Tuluk tends to be a narrow ladder, where you have PCs of different stations atop one another rather than beside. Chosen can't really plot against Lirathans or Jihaens that well, they're made to compete and schmooze with other Chosen, and so on. Below, you have commoners and merchants, who aren't anywhere near the same level as the PCs above them, and the conflict in Tuluk is always either non-existent, or so "subtle" and sparse that you have to have eagle eyes and tavern sit the Sanctuary for hours to notice it.

The lack of mudsex options isn't really an issue with Tuluk as I see it. However, the lack of relationship options between Chosen and commoners is. Lots and lots of close relationships are formed on the basis of affection, attraction, lust or love between one or both members. It lets people find reasons to have their characters bond and grow. Chosen in Tuluk need excuses to bond and form relationships with commoners because there's just not that many Chosen. Again, if we had 50 nobles, the Chosen caste could mingle all among itself, but we don't have 50 nobles or even 5. Allanak has rarely had 5 active nobles either in recent years, but in Allanak, the nobles can take concubines, and commoners can be attracted to nobles even if the noble doesn't care. In Tuluk the very CONCEPT of relationships like that is taboo and totally off the table. That means Chosen become very isolated into their own small circles very fast. Lots of players can't handle that. I don't think it's about mudsex, I think it's about having enough people to play with on a constant basis to keep your PC fun.

Gimfalisette's experience as a noble came at the genesis of the new system in Tuluk, when there was a lot of enthusiasm both by players and the staff who implemented it. I think that enthusiasm may have died off. The reason I don't like the qynar/governor system is that it's too easy for PCs to fall back into conflictless little isolated bubbles again. You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)

An interesting solution would be to open up Chosen roles in Tuluk to just about anyone who wants to try them, much like bards are. Chosen would obviously need less power to start off with, but this might populate the system more to make their roles more playable. Barring that, I would want to see several of the Tuluki Chosen Houses become NPC'd, and have maybe 3 Houses active with 2-3 nobles each. (Like Allanak has.) You need to foster conflict, competition, and relations to make the Chosen role work. To do that you need both inter AND intra-House conflict to make the roles exciting. Otherwise, you fall into the same trap, where people aren't really competing directly, and once one noble goes away, the entire structure they had vanishes.

[Gimfalisette]

The reason I don't like the qynar/governor system is that it's too easy for PCs to fall back into conflictless little isolated bubbles again. You have six different Chosen each with their own qynar to govern, but once you have one, the only reasonable conflict with other Chosen is just to attract more development and deals to your qynar than theirs. It isn't as if Chosen have become feudal lords of Tuluk who can kill their competitors and claim each other's lands, because the templarate is always still in ultimate control. (And if you're a Hlum Chosen, you don't even get in on the whole qynar skit to begin with.)

I'm in agreement with your analysis of much of the situation, except portions of the above are not reflective of reality. There is much to be found out IC about the system which is potentially generative of lots of conflict. We designed the system specifically to promote direct conflict, but it needs sufficient nobles to run it. The true intricacies of the system are the kind of stuff that only the governors and informed templars would know. That is all I can say.

[Jherlen]

I've been in a position to know, and I disagree with your disagreement. I know how you think the system may have been designed, but I don't think it works as intended. It needs refinement to work with the player population we have, or else the conflict incentives need to be increased a good bit. The concept of governorships is okay, but not when there are more governorships than there are Chosen.

[Gimfalisette]

I've been in a position to know, and I disagree with your disagreement. I know how you think the system may have been designed, but I don't think it works as intended. It needs refinement to work with the player population we have, or else the conflict incentives need to be increased a good bit. The concept of governorships is okay, but not when there are more governorships than there are Chosen.

Yes, that's what I've been saying When we had 5 or 6 Tuluki nobles, it was great. Even 4 would work.

[Jherlen]

I was thinking more on the lines of 10-15 Chosen instead of 5 or 6. I.E., not every PC Chosen is a governor, governorship is something actually competed for and gained only by more established nobility, who then have to defend it from a pack of have-nots.

Anyone else intrigued by my idea of opening Chosen up to be non-restricted roles a la bards or tribals?

[a strange shadow]

It's an interesting thought, but I think the definition of a Chosen would need some adjustments before many people are willing to put themselves into the role, no matter how easy it is to apply for one. Some screening should still exist, because a glut of poorly played nobles could be just as bad as none at all.

[Gimfalisette]

I was thinking more on the lines of 10-15 Chosen instead of 5 or 6. I.E., not every PC Chosen is a governor, governorship is something actually competed for and gained only by more established nobility, who then have to defend it from a pack of have-nots.

Anyone else intrigued by my idea of opening Chosen up to be non-restricted roles a la bards or tribals?

Hmm.

It certainly has a lot of potential for conflict.

Heck, I'd be willing to see it tried out

I think a glut of poorly-played nobles...well...the poorly-played ones would be quickly wiped out by the power players amongst the group, assuming there are a few sneaky minions around capable of doing jobs and templars are open to license purchases. Survival of the fittest and all that.

[AmandaGreathouse]

It's an interesting thought, but I think the definition of a Chosen would need some adjustments before many people are willing to put themselves into the role, no matter how easy it is to apply for one. Some screening should still exist, because a glut of poorly played nobles could be just as bad as none at all.

This. I like the idea, but it would be... yeah, there should still be some sort of screening.

[Mood]

I'd just like to remind everyone how mind numbingly boring it can be to play a noble who has no commoner employees to do dirty work. I speak from experience, having stored a noble PC I quite enjoyed.

[Ammut]

I'd just like to remind everyone how mind numbingly boring it can be to play a noble who has no commoner employees to do dirty work. I speak from experience, having stored a noble PC I quite enjoyed.

I heard every time a noble is stored a 'rinthi gets its wings.

[Boggis]

I was thinking more on the lines of 10-15 Chosen instead of 5 or 6. I.E., not every PC Chosen is a governor, governorship is something actually competed for and gained only by more established nobility, who then have to defend it from a pack of have-nots.

Anyone else intrigued by my idea of opening Chosen up to be non-restricted roles a la bards or tribals?

10 - 15 Chosen would be great... if we had the numbers to support that. But as Mood pointed out you need your commoners to do the dirty work and there won't be -nearly- enough of them around to keep even 10 Chosen in business so long as we have 2 major city-states to play in. I played as a Templar in Tuluk before and during it's renaissance and even then I thought the gap between the concept of what Tuluk was meant to be and what it actually was in practice was crushing the playability of the area.

So, at the risk of sounding like those who say "defense nerf" and "tri-class system" a lot in their posts I'll just say that the way Tuluk is setup with it's wide variety of roles at different levels of society means that it needs a large infusion of players to operate even close to the way it was designed to work. This will never happen unless we get a glut of new players or nuke Allanak. Opening up 4 Chosen slots will, at best, allow for a pale imitation of what could be and there are drawbacks to this. Arm only needs one centre of political intrigue and striving unsuccessfully for two just ends up detracting from the game overall. I don't mind where this centre is but seeing as virtually all of the history in Arm is going to be wiped -anyway- with the advent of Arm 2 I think that the Imms, right now, could perform a pretty radical piece of surgery on the current incarnation of Arm and cut out one of the major city-states with some major game event and open up a bunch of Houses to 10+ nobles and 4 templars in the remaining city-state. Then just sit back and watch the level of political intrigue and conflict soar for a sustained period of time. I just don't think that Gimfalisette's proposed solution of opening up a few Chosen slots is the solution to the problem.

[FantasyWriter]

I'd just like to remind everyone how mind numbingly boring it can be to play a noble who
has no commoner employees to do dirty work. I speak from experience, having stored a
noble PC I quite enjoyed.

I heard every time a noble is stored a 'rinthi gets its wings.

Laughed out loud, scared my nephew, it was so loud.
Maybe everyone that see it as a problem should send in an App for a Tuluki noble.  They
would have a nice selection of apps and good players to chose from, someone could go
around knocking off PCs, we would have a new set of Tuluki noobles, and everyone would
be happy. 

[Lizzie]

I think I understand Jherlen's idea, the reasoning behind it, and Gimf's concerns. How about only certain governorships be available, with the others being filled by VNPCs? That way, you can still have nobles coming around who haven't been granted a governorship, and there can be conflict in getting them, but you won't need 10-15 nobles to set the scene. You'd only need 3-5.

You would -still- need more active templars btw...this doesn't solve that problem at all.

And I still feel there is some merit in lowering (not eliminating) the strict cultural taboos against relationships between commoners and nobles. Certainly Master Fifi Konviwedu is something other than "just a commoner pet" when she has spent the last 20 years teaching the children of the Winrothol household the fine arts of etiquette, world history, mathematics, reading and writing sirihish, etc. etc...and probably getting paid more than Jimbob Winrothol for her efforts? So if She sees Jimbob in the pantry every afternoon when she's putting the childrens' teacups away, why can't it feel perfectly natural to notice the lovely curve of his chin, the graceful way she moves her fingertips, the way the green rim around his brown eyes seem to brighten when he smiles, how her voice sounds like a purring quirri...

Why shouldn't they eventually realize that they are both human beings with human needs? They ARE humans. And they are humans who are constantly hanging out with each other, because that is part of their jobs, and neither of them are slaves (which are subhuman), and both of them are of extremely refined upbringing. In fact, it's entirely possible that the Konviwedu Master is more educated, more refined, and knows more about Tuluk subtlety than the noble does. Not probably, but definitely possible. So why not allow them the opportunity to form a romantic interests in each other? As long as she isn't bearing his bastard children, why should anyone care? She is a woman of privilege in Tuluk society. That is all that -should- matter. Circle Bard Family members, Greater Merchant House family members who are genuine born raised and inked Tuluk citizens..should be fair game for the nobility of Tuluk to pick as concubines, consorts, non-sexual companions, romantic interests, dinner dates, and even just someone to touch toes with when they lay on the couch, platonically, and watch the world go by.

[Barzalene]

I have never played Tuluki Nobility. And I've only seen more then one Tuluki noble active for a bout 15 minutes total,
I don't understand the qynar system at all.

My -impression- was (during the rare fifteen moments that new nobles were showing up) was that the governorship was like a doorprize that people got for showing up. That seemed suboptimal to me. But that's said without real understanding of what's going on.

[Marauder Moe]

I think you guys are missing the whole OOC point of the sex/relationship taboo.  A taboo isn't a taboo because nobody does it.  It's a taboo because most people don't do it and consider it wrong.  Most.  It wouldn't be taboo if nobody did it.

Break some rules.

Sure, everything you were ever taught says it's wrong, but it feels so right!  It'll be fine, it'll just be our dirty little secret.  Oh, and you're going to disappear if anyone so much as smirks within twenty cords of me.

[Barzalene]

As for close relationships. Some people feel closer to their pets than to people. My uncle recently pointed out he likes his cats better than people. I asked him if a cat and a kid were drowning who would he save. He said the cat. ( I don't necessarily believe him) But he wouldn't have sex with his cats.
I think you can have very close and complicated relationships that are non-sexual.

[Malken]

As for close relationships. Some people feel closer to their pets than to people. My uncle recently pointed out he likes his cats better than people. I asked him if a cat and a kid were drowning who would he save. He said the cat. ( I don't necessarily believe him) But he wouldn't have sex with his cats.
I think you can have very close and complicated relationships that are non-sexual.

This is all nice and true, but the fact remains that we have no Chosens to play with, and apparently not many are app'ing for them, so the role is just not interesting for a huge majority of the playerbase.

I have nothing against suggestions like yours and Gimfalisette's, but this is just like saying, "No, no, people, the role -can- be interesting, you just don't know how to play it!"

So obviously a huge majority of us don't know/don't want to play the role as it is right now, and that's why I think it should be changed.

I like everything that Jherlen said.

And Marauder Moe, it's not as simple as you make it sound, romantic relationships with a commoner is forbidden both OOCly and ICly. (If I'm wrong about that then I'll gladly accept it, but as far as I'm concerned, this is both
an IC and OOC rule.)

[Marauder Moe]

Wha?  How the heck can it be an OOC rule?

EDIT: Well, I suppose it could be on the same level as elves not being allowed to ride.

[Gimfalisette]

Wha?  How the heck can it be an OOC rule?

EDIT: Well, I suppose it could be on the same level as elves not being allowed to ride.

Yes, it's also an OOC rule. When I played Tuluki nobility, we were informed that it was one of those rules that if we broke it, our character just would be stored for us. I doubt that's changed in the interim.