Armageddon General Discussion Board

This thread is for discussion regarding the announcement here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49199.0.html).  Please review it.  Per the end of that thread:

QuoteThis was a difficult choice to make.  It will impact players currently playing roles in the region.  If you need to get things off of your chest, feel free to express support of the idea or to vent your frustrations within reason and remembering the rules of the GDB. However, in either case, we request that you make an effort to understand the difficulty of this decision on staff, as well as the negative impact it has on existing PCs.  Trolling, flaming, baiting, and the like will not be tolerated.

---

Some questions we've hopefully answered in advance:

We had our own thread about this a few months ago.  Did you steal that idea/use feedback from it/etc?
We definitely saw it, though upper-level discussion had begun prior to that.  There are some similarities between suggestions there and what we are actually doing, and there are arguments made there that were also made staff-side.  For instance, the investment of many players and staff into the area over the years is something that was debated and considered heavily.  We also brought up the sunk-cost fallacy, I believe.  Our discussions mostly centered around the impact to staff and next the impact to players--balancing the current paradigm and its future vs what we saw as a more sustainable and enjoyable experience for both sides.

Why didn't you ask the playerbase about this?
Some things we could probably ask about in advance and get feedback, and we've requested feedback in some areas in the past.  We did not think this was one of those things.  Even asking could exacerbate the problems we are hoping to address.  For what it's worth, the informal player poll (though proposed by players and not by staff) did give the opportunity for players to offer feedback and their ideas and what they saw from their side.

Tuluk is doing well.  Why do this now?
The most simple answer is that Tuluk has always existed as a place for players to play in, therefore it has always been seen as a place that needed to be staffed, needed to be improved, and needed to be played in.  We have done many things to attempt to stay ahead there, and one of the few things we haven't tried is "just not letting people play there/staff there" and no longer spend time working on it, freeing up staff to work in areas that find more player interest.

How will this help with staffing?
Consolidated players means consolidated staff.  We sometimes duplicate efforts for code and building because if it exists in one city, it must exist in the other in some fashion.  If Allanak has a staff-sponsored plot and Tuluk does not, this breeds resentment as both are put forth as "equals" in terms of staff support IC.  If we remove one from the equation, we halve the work needed for larger plots related to a city-state and have freed up staff resources to work in other areas...or we could simply increase the level of plot-focused activity in that city-state.

Why not just get more staff?
We plan to do so.  We'd prefer to be at current staffing levels (or higher) even with one city-state being unplayed by players.  Having fewer areas needing DIRECT staff oversight means that we can better weather the times when we have staffing shortfalls without adversely affecting the team we do have or the players that we want to assist.

Why not close Allanak?
Allanak has largely been more static and unchanging than Tuluk.  This doesn't mean that it can't be improved or won't be changed.  Allanak is easier to staff than Tuluk, it is more recognizable as a Zalanthan entity, and it rarely has issues with players (or staffers) simply not liking it.  We want to make that city better; the benefits of investing in it are more recognizable for us.

Why not do this IC?
This is already a fairly drastic change.  We are confident that this will be for the betterment of the game, but we also don't want to leave ourselves without a way to undo what was done.  If it does not work or improve things, we can simply undo what we did.  An IC change (nuking it) would not be something that could be undone.  Other types of IC changes (occupation) would require significant staffing resources devoted to both sides of the equation, with the only result being that someone "won" the war IC.

Will you really reevaluate the reopening of Tuluk?
Yes.  We like the city-state.  It's a great concept.  It just is not appropriate for our staffing team at this time.  We may want to make changes to how it is staffed, how it is represented, etc, so that we can avoid previous issues.  It likely won't be soon, however.

So, basically you hate Tuluk? Why not close down something else?
In the larger picture this really isn't about Tuluk at all. This is about our staffing team.  We need to make some changes. This just happens to be the method that we feel best meets our needs at this moment. It gives us a chance to try a consolidated staffing model, the opportunity to focus on parts of the game world that we really want to put more time and input into (Allanak, GMH, Outlying Outposts, Independent Surrounds) along with a very clear path back to exactly where we are now should we evaluate and choose to go there. Overall Tuluk works, and we can move back to the status quo easily, should our staffing situation and the game situation be at the point where we feel that is what the game best deserves.

Does this basically make all of the work invested in Tuluk null and void and worthless?
This was a question that sat heavily on those of us that have invested directly in Tuluk quite a bit.  My own personal answer here is that this doesn't invalidate that work.  Choosing to do nothing was not going to work.

What does this mean for the war effort?
We've talked before about how we want to see more nuanced roleplay than enemy city-states that duke it out constantly.  This is going to be the start of staff helping to make that happen.  Tuluk will still exist as an IC entity, it just won't have overt player action on the other side.  We will be free to animate it as an antagonist (or protagonist) to Allanak's actions, as well as those of the Great Merchant Houses, tribes, and independent organizations.

How do I just ignore the fact that I can't enter Tuluk whenever I want to do so?
We don't expect you to ignore it, just understand the OOC reasons (it is closed except at staff behest) and allude to some currently provided IC reasons if you like.  You can come up with your own IC reasons for not going back there.  Or, if you prefer, you can just say that you do virtually go home sometimes, because virtually, citizens can go there if they bribe the guards well enough. Codedly, you cannot unless it is open for staff.  Go with what works best for your own roleplaying experience.

But virtual NPCs and stuff can go into Tuluk.  Even parts of my GMH or independent organization supposedly exist in Tuluk.  How do I explain that?
Commerce still flows through there. Understand that it is not available for you to visit if you're not a citizen unless we have it open, and play it off from there.

How will Tuluki culture exist if there is no Tuluk?
The docs will still exist, and you can still play a Tuluki ex-pat somewhere else.  There are things that Tuluk did well in the past that can be taken up elsewhere (a culture for the arts isn't exclusive to any one city, for instance).

How will GMH operate if there is only one city?
GMH have had similar issues with needing to justify multiple leadership roles being spread out across the Known World.  Now there will be less of a need to have multiple leaders, though if they do exist/get recruited/promoted, they will be more closely tied to the rest of their PC team in whatever region they occupy.  We'd like to spend more time on things that GMHs can do that aren't just maintenance/run-of-the-mill "ordering and selling."

What are you going to do with places like Red Storm, and the like?
We want to beef these places up as outposts for visiting.

How can I have murder, corruption, and betrayal without a city-state enemy?
That enemy still exists (if it is one for you).  However, there are plenty of people to murder in Allanak.  We want to facilitate conflict and new roleplay opportunities by increasing staff's focus on Allanak.  More sponsored roles, more staff, more plots that tie into other areas of the game, and other surprises of that nature.

I am very unhappy with this change. I feel let down by staff.
We know. We're sorry. This has been a difficult transition for us, too, and we've been discussing it heatedly on the Immortal boards for a long time now. We know that players in Tuluk have put just as much love, care, dedication, and time into their PCs as characters elsewhere in the game. We would like to invite every player currently in Tuluk to reach out  via the request tool if you'd like to hash things out with us. If you're planning on keeping your current PC and going elsewhere in the world, we'll work with you on that. If you're going to store your PC and start a new one elsewhere, clan staff in that part of the world will (if you like) discuss your new PC with you and work with you to get you started with a character you will find interesting and exciting.

Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?
Please get in touch with us.  We are treating each case individually.  ALL Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

Will there be an increase in clan hiring caps for other clans, like AoD, noble houses, specific merchant branches, etc?
This is a good question.  The short and obvious answer is yes, there will be tweaks to that.  The more complicated answer is that we will be reassessing what clans are open and available and what works in terms of interaction.  With an increase in nobility and other localized leadership roles would come a necessary increase in clan caps.  

Will there still be "enforcers" in the North?  So that the entire Northlands doesn't turn into open season for, say, Rogue Gicks and Outlaws who now no longer need to worry about PCs regularly being present in an area that was previously well populated with potential risk and that is chock full of cool places to hermit-out in?
It's actually pretty simple really. Treat the game world with respect. Roleplay properly, and things will be as they should be. The world isn't going to change dramatically. There won't be roving hordes of feral Tuluki soldiers out to kill everything in sight. But if you're up there disregarding the world and acting like Tuluk doesn't exist. Acting like it's a free-for-all stomping ground, then you may get a reaction in kind. We hope that our players won't do that, and that our staff won't react in such a way.   What Rathustra means is that Tuluk will still exist and we as staff will animate it in that manner. We will have Tuluk NPCs react appropriately as situations arise in game. So that's what should be considered.

Will the northlands in general see a closing off? Will there be more rooms added to the south of the Known, so that Luir's is "farther" away? Or will the gates of Tuluk just be shut?
The gates will be shut to all PCs except virtual visiting for citizen PCs. vNPCs will still move in and out if they have business of interest to the state or an organisation that can vouch for a temporary entry/exit permit. It will still open for events. It will still be animated and virtually present in the wider Gol Krathu area.

How will this work for merchant houses?  Traveling between civilization centers is currently a part of merchant house roleplay (material exchanges and personnel transfers). Will PCs still travel to Tuluk to get supplies, etc? Or will this be relegated to something that happens virtually with PCs being involved?
We thought the same thing too! And we have come up with some ideas. We'll be working with the GMH on that.

I am just curious what is going to happen to all the items from Tuluk?
Anything integral to the game that was only found in Tuluk can most definitely be moved about.  We'll be focusing first on the really important stuff (we've already discussed mounts) and then move down from there. Since the city is still there (ICly) and since trade and such will virtually occur...and since we are planning to make GMH-specific stuff available on NPC merchants...I don't see why northern-specific goods couldn't be sold at a fat markup.  Also the rest is something Adhira has alluded to.  That's not to say you're going to see kryl stuff/armor/loot hit like nobody's business, I'm pointing out that there are possibilities here.

Crossposting from Staff Announcements:

Hello Armageddon,

Today, the news that we have been dreading for a month has become public. In a way it is as much a relief as it is a new burden. We're relieved that we can commiserate with those of you who we've spent time building and animating for and with – that we can share our memories of the good times Tuluk has given us and that we can begin the task of doing right by you one last time. We're burdened though by the loss of a part of the game world we viewed as being engaging, exciting, unique and challenging to play and staff for, by the abrupt end to many excellent player-developed and run storylines, by the loss of an IC culture kept alive through the combined efforts of innumerable players throughout Armageddon's history.

We regret that many of the plans and aspirations we had for Tuluk will now be put on hold – that the many other projects we have introduced recently will not have the chance to be fully utilised until Tuluk is drawn out of deep freeze. But all this is balanced by the hope that we will be around in the future when we can look at the city with a fresh pair of eyes and knit everything into a final, complete whole that will be ready for all of us to enjoy.

I hope you can forgive us for this closure. While we as a team are passionate about Tuluk, we are also passionate about ArmageddonMUD and realise that this direction is the best choice for developing the game as an RPI. None of us are planning on going anywhere – our drive and love for the parts of Armageddon that Tuluk embodied and exemplified remains and we will take Tuluk's emphasis on challenging play amd flavourful theme with us to the other parts of Zalanthas we go to work on.

Each of us are also dedicated to making sure this period of transition is as comfortable as possible for players currently in Tuluk. We invite each and every player affected by this change to get in touch with us directly so we can negotiate either a fitting closure to your character's story – or a means for your character to leave Tuluk and participate in the wider world – with a minimum of IC weirdness. Our time, as always, is yours until the gates close that final time and we move on.

Finally – we want to thank you all. Every single player who has played in Tuluk. Who has etched their name into Tuluk through their play and dedication. We want to thank everyone who has trod that city's streets and done something – good or ill, under the Sun King's eternal gaze. We also want to thank Tuluk's enemies – those who have fought hard and defined the city in adversity in game, or those outside of the game who made sure that every decision we made and every asset we built was gilded with an adversity that made our successes all the more sweeter.

Thank you all – and radiance bless.

-The Northlands Team

What the fuuuuuuuuuuuck you guys holy shit

I think this is a great move by staff, and will only better the game.

I've been dying to see a more consolidated player population for quite some time.

(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg)

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eHgNXBP_Jwc/maxresdefault.jpg)

You will be missed.

While I'm saddened by this, I understand the reasoning behind closing Tuluk.  It was fun playing in Tuluk, but I feel like (even with my current PC) that I never really understood how the city and it's culture worked.

I had to check the timestamp several times, thinking this was an April Fool's joke that mistakenly got bumped.

:o

More reactions to come, I guess.

Tuluk did have a fuckton of problems, but is this the solution? nuke it from the orbit?

I loved playing there, when I did

Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

Higher concentration of PCs and more sponsored roles means more opportunities for plots to arise between players, there's going to be more going on and more staff to support it, instead of two groups of players playing practically separate games on the same server.

On the other hand, losing all this culture is pretty awful and the dynamic of city v city is gone, aside from NPCs. I never got to play a bard, also, which is super sherpt.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 13, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
Tuluk did have a fuckton of problems, but is this the solution? nuke it from the orbit?

We discussed nuking it from orbit, but chose not to do that.  We have some FAQ-type stuff above that should explain more.

Not sure how I feel about this.  I'm willing to see how it plays out.  And it's not like staff can't reopen it if this doesn't work.

My heart goes out to all the current players in Tuluk and all the diehard Tuluk players though.  I hope we don't lose these people as players.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:30:57 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

Bolding for effect. ALL Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

Quote from: Cavaticus on April 13, 2015, 01:34:56 PM

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:30:57 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

Bolding for effect. All Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

Or discuss your current character. We can help find ways for characters that would otherwise never leave Tuluk find a reason to leave home.

Yes, that too!

You guys should have killed more of us yesterday :P

In my mind, it's sort of like putting down a sick pet. It's been ill from puppy-hood, and you've poured countless money into treatments, surgeries, and medicine, but the time came when you just had to put it out of its misery. You had great times with it, and there was that great day when it wasn't too sick and you went for a romp by the beach, but it just kept getting sick and feeling miserable. Maybe someday you'll get a new puppy. For now, you're just going to focus your attention and care back on to other things while your financials recuperate.

Okay, I probably thought about that one too hard.

Still - and more seriously - while this sucks for those who are currently playing in Tuluk - I've lost characters through similar situations (a sorcerer, for one), so I can fully empathize - I think this is a move that will ultimately be for the best. The elements of Tuluk which worked can be implemented elsewhere in the game.

I'm interested to see what happens when other areas of the game receive the attention, time, and care that were poured into Tuluk. We've had a one-city game before, though in that time it had Tuluki patriots who were fighting against the occupation of Tuluk. So it had that conflict going for it.

In the absence of Tuluk as a playable entity working against Allanak, I'd love to see that other sustainable PC-vs-PC conflicts arise in its place.

Good idea. Props.

Will there be an increase in clan hiring caps for other clans, like AoD, noble houses, specific merchant branches, etc?

For someone who lost their shit over a bar, its kind of surprising this makes me feel really hopeful. I think this might be great. I think making the switch ooc was a really good move.

Quote from: LauraMars on April 13, 2015, 01:42:42 PM
Good idea. Props.

(And I say that as someone who has put a shitload of hours and effort into Tuluk.)

I'm sorry to see this happening, and I hope it will have the effects staff hope for. Tuluk being my primary location/culture of choice for many years, I had hoped to return to play there eventually. I'm glad that it wasn't just nuked, and will be considered for reopening at some point down the road.

I don't know how I feel about losing Tuluk as a playable entity but I am pretty sad about losing Tuluk as an entity to interact with.

Personally, I mainly play in Allanak.  I am sad, though, because I wanted to have another go at Poet's Circle.  That clan has fascinated me since I started this game, and the only PC I had in it had to leave for... reasons.

Thinking back, opportunities to actually interact with strongly-affiliated northern PCs were VERY rare, especially in the years since the Copper Wars.  The two cities were quite isolated from each other.

I think, overall, this will be a good thing, or at least a good experiment.  I'm looking forward to a significant influx of players to other parts of the game.

I feel like I just attended the Red Wedding.

Rathustra is Walder Frey.

Nyr is Roose Bolton.

While I am reeling in shock and feel like Staff just killed Robb Stark in front of me and I am Catelyn Stark growl screaming, I think ultimately this is one of the better decisions Staff has made. It is a difficult decision. It is a decision I would never be able to make myself.

But I think it will ultimately be good for the game.

Fuck.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 13, 2015, 01:28:42 PM
I had to check the timestamp several times, thinking this was an April Fool's joke that mistakenly got bumped.

:o

More reactions to come, I guess.

I had the same reaction.

Can you talk about the consideration of the impact to:

Travel between Luirs and Allanak?  The Outpost now becomes more of an IC destination than a waypoint and it's IMHO not really destination worthy in its current form.  I'd hate to see even less traffic headed that way.  This could be a very good thing for Luirs or it could mean no one ever travels through the Red ever again.

Will there still be "enforcers" in the North?  So that the entire Northlands doesn't turn into open season for, say, Rogue Gicks and Outlaws who now no longer need to worry about PCs regularly being present in an area that was previously well populated with potential risk and that is chock full of cool places to hermit-out in?

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 01:44:42 PM
I don't know how I feel about losing Tuluk as a playable entity but I am pretty sad about losing Tuluk as an entity to interact with.

I don't think that will be the case.  You can't play a gith, but they still affect people's stories.

This makes me sad.

Quote from: valeria on April 13, 2015, 01:42:45 PM
Will there be an increase in clan hiring caps for other clans, like AoD, noble houses, specific merchant branches, etc?

This is a good question.  The short and obvious answer is yes, there will be tweaks to that.  The more complicated answer is that we will be reassessing what clans are open and available and what works in terms of interaction.  With an increase in nobility and other localized leadership roles would come a necessary increase in clan caps.  

To anyone being forced to store a PC, you have my condolences.  I've been there.  It sucks.

But ultimately I moved on to bigger and better things.  I'm sure you will too.

Does this mean that you can no longer gather wood or is it just going to be that the city is no longer in place? 

Walls disappear and leave a description only room?

Quote from: whitt on April 13, 2015, 01:48:04 PM

Will there still be "enforcers" in the North?  So that the entire Northlands doesn't turn into open season for, say, Rogue Gicks and Outlaws who now no longer need to worry about PCs regularly being present in an area that was previously well populated with potential risk and that is chock full of cool places to hermit-out in?

Tuluk isn't vanishing. If you cast in the North and don't respect the virtual world. I will load an army of HG soldiers to batter you. In a way this is a liberation. I don't need to rely on PCs anymore.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 13, 2015, 01:48:48 PM
To anyone being forced to store a PC, you have my condolences.  I've been there.  It sucks.

But ultimately I moved on to bigger and better things.  I'm sure you will too.

At least I won't have to write a character report anymore.

Following up on whitt's post, will the northlands in general see a closing off? Will there be more rooms added to the south of the Known, so that Luir's is "farther" away? Or will the gates of Tuluk just be shut?

Quote from: Down Under on April 13, 2015, 01:45:18 PM

Rathustra is Walder Frey.

I think you are misrepresenting my role in this.

Wow. I had to check and make sure this wasn't a belated April Fools, too.

I actually really, really like this change and think it will benefit the game at large to have a consolidated player base. I loved Tuluk, and I hope you guys can or will put something in to ICly make sense why someone would not be able to enter the city state at all!

Perhaps Tuluk becoming self-sustaining behind high, impregnable closed walls?

Quote from: whitt on April 13, 2015, 01:48:04 PM
Can you talk about the consideration of the impact to:

Travel between Luirs and Allanak?  The Outpost now becomes more of an IC destination than a waypoint and it's IMHO not really destination worthy in its current form.  I'd hate to see even less traffic headed that way.  This could be a very good thing for Luirs or it could mean no one ever travels through the Red ever again.

Will there still be "enforcers" in the North?  So that the entire Northlands doesn't turn into open season for, say, Rogue Gicks and Outlaws who now no longer need to worry about PCs regularly being present in an area that was previously well populated with potential risk and that is chock full of cool places to hermit-out in?

Well, there's still a northlands clan you can play in by way of the ATV but I guess they go from policing Tuluki PCs to... The most remote clan in the game, in terms of actual distance and player density?

Ultimately the very frustrating thing is that I felt the storyline with my PC was leading to an incredibly awesome destination.

Now i'll have to take the next offramp and wonder 'what if'. I suppose that mystery has always been lurking around the Mantis head corner, however, and isn't something I am unfamiliar with.

Some really stupid questions:

With no one 'guarding' the wood of the Grey Forest, what prevents loggers from spamming up to Tuluk, cutting down some trees, and selling them at exorbitant prices in Allanak and Red Storm Village?

Who will sing 'The Wind Over The Plains'? Will this become the equivalent to "Rains of Castemere"?

Do you feel that the RPT that occurred yesterday could have been better planned to include more PCs? A natural death in an RPT of that nature might have left people a little less shocked or butthurt about closing Tuluk to play, especially Leaders who have no option except to store.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 01:51:58 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 13, 2015, 01:48:48 PM
To anyone being forced to store a PC, you have my condolences.  I've been there.  It sucks.

But ultimately I moved on to bigger and better things.  I'm sure you will too.

At least I won't have to write a character report anymore.

Following up on whitt's post, will the northlands in general see a closing off? Will there be more rooms added to the south of the Known, so that Luir's is "farther" away? Or will the gates of Tuluk just be shut?

The gates will be shut. vNPCs will still move in and out. It will still open for events. It will still be animated and virtually present in the wider gol Krathu,

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:52:58 PM

Quote from: Down Under on April 13, 2015, 01:45:18 PM

Rathustra is Walder Frey.

I think you are misrepresenting my role in this.

Tywin Lannister?

I'm kind of sad because I never got the chance to play a Tuluki and really learn what it was all about. I was always putting it off because I was intimidated by the idea of being a noob all over again. But in a way it's kind of good because Tuluk will always be the 'other' that I kind of enjoyed their being.

That means I'll probably never really be able to play a Tuluki ex-pat, though.

What will this mean for the entire northern section of the map? What will be the reason for people to even go there now? I hope you'll make the south/middle section extremely dangerous/interesting  to make up for the world shrinkage


(bring back the red fangs, you know you need them >.>)

Quote from: Nyr on April 13, 2015, 01:48:26 PM

Quote from: valeria on April 13, 2015, 01:42:45 PM
Will there be an increase in clan hiring caps for other clans, like AoD, noble houses, specific merchant branches, etc?

This is a good question.  The short and obvious answer is yes, there will be tweaks to that.  The more complicated answer is that we will be reassessing what clans are open and available and what works in terms of interaction.  With an increase in nobility and other localized leadership roles would come a necessary increase in clan caps.  

To add to this - when we wrote that we want to put more time and effort into some other areas of the game this is absolutely true. We don't quite have this all figured out yet, and a lot of this is going to develop over time and we're going to be playing it by ear. But we do hope to see more variety in the role types and in the scope of what some of the other clans, like the merchant houses, have on offer. This isn't just about increasing hiring caps, and opening up those clans, but really being able to look at what is happening within that clan group, within that areas a whole and making it work better. Through resources, stories, holdings and so on. It won't be immediate, but we're hopeful that there will be some results here.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 13, 2015, 01:45:08 PM
Personally, I mainly play in Allanak.  I am sad, though, because I wanted to have another go at Poet's Circle.  That clan has fascinated me since I started this game, and the only PC I had in it had to leave for... reasons.

I too hope that the bardic culture from Tuluk somehow creeps into Nak (or the existing culture gets amplified and formalized).  I think I'd miss that the most, next to ginka pie.

This also makes yesterday's RPT bittersweet.  Glad I saw Tuluk while I could, it was a fun ride.

Kudos to staff as a whole for being impartial enough to judge the situation aptly and make this difficult decision. As a few others have said, I think it'll benefit the game both in the near and long term.

Quote from: LauraMars on April 13, 2015, 01:48:09 PM

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 01:44:42 PM
I don't know how I feel about losing Tuluk as a playable entity but I am pretty sad about losing Tuluk as an entity to interact with.

I don't think that will be the case.  You can't play a gith, but they still affect people's stories.

+1 This is the intention. Tuluk will still exist.

*checks date* Not April 1st?  :o

Let's give it a try. I hope the dedicated Tuluki players will forgive and allow Allanak a chance.

Quote from: Down Under on April 13, 2015, 01:53:59 PM
Ultimately the very frustrating thing is that I felt the storyline with my PC was leading to an incredibly awesome destination.

Now i'll have to take the next offramp and wonder 'what if'. I suppose that mystery has always been lurking around the Mantis head corner, however, and isn't something I am unfamiliar with.

Some really stupid questions:

With no one 'guarding' the wood of the Grey Forest, what prevents loggers from spamming up to Tuluk, cutting down some trees, and selling them at exorbitant prices in Allanak and Red Storm Village?

Who will sing 'The Wind Over The Plains'? Will this become the equivalent to "Rains of Castemere"?

Do you feel that the RPT that occurred yesterday could have been better planned to include more PCs? A natural death in an RPT of that nature might have left people a little less shocked or butthurt about closing Tuluk to play, especially Leaders who have no option except to store.

Tuluk and the ATV will be guarding the North's natural resources.

The Tuluk ex-pats in the wider world will sing it.

The RPT yesterday was not designed to kill people. I will never run an RPT with the express intention of killing PCs.

Quote from: whitt on April 13, 2015, 01:48:04 PM
Travel between Luirs and Allanak?  The Outpost now becomes more of an IC destination than a waypoint and it's IMHO not really destination worthy in its current form.  I'd hate to see even less traffic headed that way.  This could be a very good thing for Luirs or it could mean no one ever travels through the Red ever again.

We expect that Luir's will become a much more interesting place to play in. We're looking at ways to help facilitate that.

Consolidating the playerbase will allow better inter-clan dynamics, politics, intrigue, plots. I fucking love this change. I've been saying for forever that the real problem with the game is that we don't have enough minions. And now we do. This game just became way more awesome.

Also, I don't mean this in a rude way, but the way this was announced seems like the Armageddon Reborn announcement. I put my faith in Staff that they've done the work behind the scenes to prepare for this, but it seems off the cuff. This decision may have vast repercussions on the game yet unforeseen -- Not having that city-state or drastic 'other playing area' for the game may drive people (like myself) away from the game.

I'll give it a college try. But i'm not sure how I will feel once the shock has left.

Big change.
But I see some fun days ahead. I mean think about it? People you don't like are more then likely be around you now days!
I see fights coming, plots

I double-checked the timestamp. Not 1 April.

Consolidation is splendid. Looking forward to seeing what comes of this.

BUT WHAT ABOUT FORAGE CLAY!?

And clayworking?  And cotton picking/working?

Quote from: Down Under on April 13, 2015, 01:45:18 PM
I feel like I just attended the Red Wedding.

Rathustra is Walder Frey.

Nyr is Roose Bolton.

I'm probably Tywin here.

Quote from: Ritikki on April 13, 2015, 01:53:04 PM
Wow. I had to check and make sure this wasn't a belated April Fools, too.

I actually really, really like this change and think it will benefit the game at large to have a consolidated player base. I loved Tuluk, and I hope you guys can or will put something in to ICly make sense why someone would not be able to enter the city state at all!

We've discussed making it a completely IC change to mask it but ultimately it IS an OOC change.  If you're there now, you can (and will) be given reason to leave if you are able to do so.  Once it is closed, it means you can't go there as a PC codedly unless we open it up for some sort of event.

Quote from: whitt on April 13, 2015, 01:48:04 PM
Can you talk about the consideration of the impact to:

Travel between Luirs and Allanak?  The Outpost now becomes more of an IC destination than a waypoint and it's IMHO not really destination worthy in its current form.  I'd hate to see even less traffic headed that way.  This could be a very good thing for Luirs or it could mean no one ever travels through the Red ever again.

Will there still be "enforcers" in the North?  So that the entire Northlands doesn't turn into open season for, say, Rogue Gicks and Outlaws who now no longer need to worry about PCs regularly being present in an area that was previously well populated with potential risk and that is chock full of cool places to hermit-out in?

There are still a couple more weeks before official closure, and there are still a few things that may develop in game that will shed a little more clarity on the situation of how the North will be operating. What I will reveal is that there will be a playable area beyond Luirs that PCs can visit, so there will be a reason for foot traffic. We fully expect that there will be an enlivened area beyond the walls of Allanak. While Allanak will become a more vibrant city, with (we hope) a fully fledged internal political struggle, the outskirts and surrounds will reflect the harsh environment dotted with waypoints for travelers that the World is reknowned for.

There will be enforcers in the North, and they will show no mercy. Rathustra, Seidhr, Enthemu and co are eagerly awaiting those Rogues who think otherwise.

Rathustra did an amazing job with Tuluk btw, so...y'all better recognize.

(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130411020318/vampirediaries/images/9/96/3682_7490.gif)

I'm hoping one day that Tuluk will reopen, mostly because I loved the clay pit and the Levies. But yeah, I can give them up for now.

Rathustra best admin 2012.

I am not a huge fan of Tuluk. I never much cared for playing there.

But, I sure liked having it as an active antagonist. I loved being able to hate the people from there. (I don't mean virtual people I am pretending to hate with zero actual substance.) That is the part I am going to miss. I won't miss playing there. I will miss getting to hate the people that do IC'ly.

But you know I do remember the days back when Tuluk was occupied and the only thing there really was a tavern and a few shops and that was it. I did like the feeling of the game world back then, and basically, Tuluk really was "A virtual enemy.", in most regards at that time. A Pyramid behind some walls that never got opened.

From that point of view, Tuluk has only really been "open" since after I started playing and I remember the game running just fine when it was "closed". So while some people might fear or hate what is coming, just keep in mind, this isn't the first time Tuluk has sat in this position.

I would personally prefer something more "IC" happening to close Tuluk off to the playerbase, but, it is what it is and I can't really complain.

I'm interested to see what happens with the economy and things of that nature with the playerbase becoming more focused on mainly Allanak. Back when Tuluk's walls were effectively closed that I recall, peak times saw 35 players on a good night. Now with 60+ being common, I am interested to see what happens.

I like the idea of having a ton of people more focused on the areas where I prefer to play. How can I not like that?

I have only one gripe and that is that this wasn't done on a more IC level to explain the lack of mobility to that region.

Easy fix that leaves Tuluk still standing and easily re-opened but cutoff to the passage of players?

"A horrible plague, carried on strange spores in the air from somewhere deep in the forest passes over Tuluk. Countless thousands fall sick and die. The nobility and templarate take shelter within their compounds. The gates of the city are closed and no travelers are allowed passage into Tuluk for an undisclosed number of years. Horrible tales of mass killings in an attempt to wipe out the infected leak from the walls, but nobody can confirm. Black plumes of smoke can be seen for days on end at times by those travelling outside of the city...speculation is it's the burning of the bodies as they continue to pile up. Those who can leave the city and have not fallen ill barely get out before the gates close. So begins the years of "The Cleansing" as the city attempts to find a cure while putting down any who show signs of the illness.".

Something like that. The people that need to "die" can die IC'ly. The people that need to "leave" have a great IC reason to leave. The game history flows perfectly well. Everyone has an IC excuse to explain why they are doing or not doing what it is they are currently up to.

Staff could still also easily re-open Tuluk with minimal effort in an IC way.

I do hope there's a solid IC reason for the departure/death of various PCs to make sure that this flows as seamlessly as possible from a story perspective.

I'm glad that this is an OOC change and not an ICly justified one. Allowing for Staff to come back from this decision if it doesn't pan out as planned is a great failsafe.

Quote from: Is Friday on April 13, 2015, 01:56:57 PM
Consolidating the playerbase will allow better inter-clan dynamics, politics, intrigue, plots. I fucking love this change. I've been saying for forever that the real problem with the game is that we don't have enough minions. And now we do. This game just became way more awesome.

^

Even as much as I like it, I still feel for the people who have had incredible and long-lived characters in Tuluk. As much teasing hatred there is towards Tuluk, it was a wonderful place to play in. There's no way this transaction is emotionally seamless and smooth.

I imagine there will be spots to forage clay and cotton implemented in the future. I also imagine there will be a migration of Tulukis for OOC reasons. What reasons will the characters have to leave their beloved city states? Would the staff encourage storage if there is no good reason? I hope this gets worked out.  

Not sure what follows, I'm hoping for the best though.

I humbly volunteer my PC for stat, skill, and insanity boosts so he can kill everyone in Tuluk and force an IC closer of the city.


Actually, I'm with Down Under.

Quote from: Down Under on April 13, 2015, 02:12:02 PM
I'm glad that this is an OOC change and not an ICly justified one. Allowing for Staff to come back from this decision if it doesn't pan out as planned is a great failsafe.

While I've only ever rarely played in Tuluk, I don't hate the place. Feels for those who prefer it as their main city to play in, but I figure this might be a very good choice in the long run. Hopefully we can give everyone coming south a nice, fun welcome and keep your gaming experience full of excitement (and boots)!  ;)

I am curious about this recent RPT. I hope a history page post comes out at some point telling what happened.

I used to play Tuluk more than Allanak but switched to playing more southern PCs about two years ago. But I have played akai, a bard apprentice, some GMH and many indies in Tuluk.

I am excited about this and agree fully with the move including the OOC implementation. I am glad staff are willing to do this. it gives me hope. I think this is going to help Allanak and Luir's and Storm quite a bit. Kudos.

What's going to happen with the tablelands now? Just same old same old?

Quote from: LauraMars on April 13, 2015, 02:04:41 PM
Rathustra did an amazing job with Tuluk btw, so...y'all better recognize.

(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130411020318/vampirediaries/images/9/96/3682_7490.gif)

Totally the reason I apped for a particular role.

All my dealings with Rathustra and Nergal have been badass to say the least.




This change is still crazy to think about, I don't think I'm so upset about not being able to play in Tuluk as I am about not having the OPTION to play in Tuluk. Overall, I think the reduction in staff workload is a great idea, the consolidation of the playerbase will definitely only make nak feel more crowded and crazy. Curious how it all plays out.

To Desertman and others that mentioned the IC vs OOC nature of the change: As Nyr said above, there is going to be an IC reason for current characters in Tuluk to leave and for future characters to be unable to go there, although as stated in the announcement, nobles and templars will have to be stored.

There is still two weeks left to go before we close Tuluk in game. We do have something planned IC. We even have an RPT scheduled on the calendar you may note. No, we aren't going to post here and discuss what we have planned. However, we wanted to announce this OOC closure with you prior to the actual closing date and not just go ahead with our IC storyline then say "Oh guess what, Tuluk is closed RIGHT NOW". So please bear with us on that point.  Some of you may wish to store now. Some of you may wish to leave the city now, or quit playing now. We understand, this is your choice. We ask you to take some time and talk to staff.

I encourage you to try sticking around and seeing if you want to experience the RPT and have some fun with us. There are some fun and interesting things in store plotwise over the next couple of weeks and you've seen some of the build up in game recently.

Making it ooc was the right choice,  I think.

Will staff be making an announcement about this visible when logging in? It would help players who don't check the GDB or website. Currently the most recent announcement is May 2014 about Tuluk shrinking. I think that could be replaced no?

Quote from: Adhira on April 13, 2015, 02:19:40 PM
There is still two weeks left to go before we close Tuluk in game. We do have something planned IC. We even have an RPT scheduled on the calendar you may note. No, we aren't going to post here and discuss what we have planned. However, we wanted to announce this OOC closure with you prior to the actual closing date and not just go ahead with our IC storyline then say "Oh guess what, Tuluk is closed RIGHT NOW". So please bear with us on that point.  Some of you may wish to store now. Some of you may wish to leave the city now, or quit playing now. We understand, this is your choice. We ask you to take some time and talk to staff.

I encourage you to try sticking around and seeing if you want to experience the RPT and have some fun with us. There are some fun and interesting things in store plotwise over the next couple of weeks and you've seen some of the build up in game recently.

Oh I misunderstood.

I'm super excited to see what the IC reason for the city closing to travelers ends up being. Like I said, I loved the game and the way it felt back in the day when Tuluk was basically 'closed'.

(Use my spore-plague idea. It is gud.)

So is another inix seller going to be added?

How will this work for merchant houses?  Traveling between civilization centers is currently a part of merchant house roleplay (material exchanges and personnel transfers). Will PCs still travel to Tuluk to get supplies, etc? Or will this be relegated to something that happens virtually without PCs being involved?

This change to me is bittersweet though I hugely applaud staff for doing it.

I wonder if IC changes - such as making Nak win the war, reopening Under Tuluk and forcing all the active House/Legions players there into the area in the hopes that rebel/revolution will make them rise again -  were considered before this. I think that'd have been more interesting. Maybe the Sun King could kick everyone BUT inked out, including GMHs and really become autonomous and reclusive, where the locals don't get any sun and only a select few are permitted out.

I'd prefer it more if the gates weren't closed so that people can use it for trade and the lawless can plunder.

Oh! And I'd have preferred an IC storyline IN CONJUNCTION with the OOC cut off, something we could add to the timeline - ShaL's useless addition of two sids.

I hope people still play the flora and fauna end of it.

I don't like Tuluk. Haven't since the revolution, it felt like a forced opposite of Allanak where changes were made specifically to be the antithesis. My heart hurts in my feelings place nonetheless because I know people love it as fiercely (if not more) than I love Allanak. The complexity of the place always enthralled me and maybe intimidated me a little and I've said it for a long time, my characters conniving is much more Tuluki than Nakki as a whole.



I look forward to its eventual reopening and will definitely not let the opportunity pass me up again.

Cheers, Tuluk, fare thee well.

Cheers, Staff, much respect.


Holy fuck Known, shit is about to get real. Some of you have NO fucking idea what this means and when the sting wears off you are gonna be in for the ride of your life. Brace yourselves.

Quote from: Molten Heart on April 13, 2015, 02:23:15 PM
How will this work for merchant houses?  Traveling between civilization centers is currently a part of merchant house roleplay (material exchanges and personnel transfers). Will PCs still travel to Tuluk to get supplies, etc? Or will this be relegated to something that happens virtually with PCs being involved?

^ I was thinking the same.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on April 13, 2015, 02:22:59 PM
So is another inix seller going to be added?

I posted above that there will be a waypoint North of Luirs. That place will have a mount seller. I guess he might sell Inix. Hopefully one of our new builders will build him and put Inix on him.

Just adding, now that I understand there will be IC reasons for the city being "closed to travelers" etc....I am super excited about this change. Zero issues with the change. Love it.

(Seriously though, I am sorry for you guys who had to store characters. I know and played with some of you who are currently in leadership positions up there and you were/are awesome. Bring some of that awesome with you when you come to Allanak!)

Quote from: Barsook on April 13, 2015, 02:24:39 PM

Quote from: Molten Heart on April 13, 2015, 02:23:15 PM
How will this work for merchant houses?  Traveling between civilization centers is currently a part of merchant house roleplay (material exchanges and personnel transfers). Will PCs still travel to Tuluk to get supplies, etc? Or will this be relegated to something that happens virtually with PCs being involved?

^ I was thinking the same.

We thought the same thing too! And we have come up with some ideas. We'll be working with the GMH on that.

Quote from: Desertman on April 13, 2015, 02:22:36 PM

Quote from: Adhira on April 13, 2015, 02:19:40 PM
There is still two weeks left to go before we close Tuluk in game. We do have something planned IC. We even have an RPT scheduled on the calendar you may note. No, we aren't going to post here and discuss what we have planned. However, we wanted to announce this OOC closure with you prior to the actual closing date and not just go ahead with our IC storyline then say "Oh guess what, Tuluk is closed RIGHT NOW". So please bear with us on that point.  Some of you may wish to store now. Some of you may wish to leave the city now, or quit playing now. We understand, this is your choice. We ask you to take some time and talk to staff.

I encourage you to try sticking around and seeing if you want to experience the RPT and have some fun with us. There are some fun and interesting things in store plotwise over the next couple of weeks and you've seen some of the build up in game recently.

Oh I misunderstood.

I'm super excited to see what the IC reason for the city closing to travelers ends up being. Like I said, I loved the game and the way it felt back in the day when Tuluk was basically 'closed'.

(Use my spore-plague idea. It is gud.)

Staff have said that the city will still be a presence ICly, this change is OOC.  They are probably going to do something that will cause the population to be reduced slightly, or make some other IC reason for the current pc presence in the city to leave....but it will still be a large virtual entity with a virtual GMH presence and virtual nobles and templars doing their own virtual things.

Quote from: Desertman on April 13, 2015, 02:25:24 PM
WELCOME TO ALLANAK YOU TEA SIPPING TREE HUGGING TREGIL PETTING NORTHIES! GET ON MY LEVEL!

(Seriously though, I am sorry for you guys who had to store characters. I know and played with some of you who are currently in leadership positions up there and you were/are awesome. Bring some of that awesome with you when you come to Allanak!)

Last time I played in Allanak I wound up killing about twenty people.

It'll be good to be home.

hi arm mud staff

important question about these recent change

where will i go to buy feathered hatchets and lutes???

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 02:26:52 PM

Quote from: Desertman on April 13, 2015, 02:25:24 PM
WELCOME TO ALLANAK YOU TEA SIPPING TREE HUGGING TREGIL PETTING NORTHIES! GET ON MY LEVEL!

(Seriously though, I am sorry for you guys who had to store characters. I know and played with some of you who are currently in leadership positions up there and you were/are awesome. Bring some of that awesome with you when you come to Allanak!)

Last time I played in Allanak I wound up killing about twenty people.

It'll be good to be home.

Yes, yes! *Evil Grin* *Rubs Hands Together*

>Will there be a new inix seller.


Well, if you get me some startup funds, we could be sitting on a lot of coin in a couple of years.

Start thinking up IC reasons to hoard items soon to be gone that I use.

i wonder how many rangers we're going to be seeing leading 3 inix at a time south to luirs in the coming weeks

Many many long years ago, I never played in Tuluk. The closest I got was being a guard for a House that had a compound near the grasslands. I'd always played in Nak and my last role was a Blackmoon Raider. Since I've been back to Arma, I've played mostly in Tuluk, I've loved that city with all of my heart. Currently I'm disabled and don't get to play as much or as often as I used to. I'll be missing Tuluk but I'm going to look forward to something new. I hope the north is still open, that it's just the city that is closed. It would be sad to lose all of the great places to explore.

Quote from: ShaLeah on April 13, 2015, 02:24:19 PM
I wonder if IC changes - such as making Nak win the war, reopening Under Tuluk and forcing all the active House/Legions players there into the area in the hopes that rebel/revolution will make them rise again -  were considered before this.

Yes, those things were considered, and ultimately shot down.  You've asked "what if?", but not "what then?"

The biggest problem is one of effort, manpower, and "making it a plot worth the playerbase."  To do those things properly would take months of planning and setup.  Then when we are done, what then?  We're right back where we started:  playerbase separated by a gulf of IC distance, staff separated in tasks by a gulf of IC focus, and we've also spent a ton of time and effort working on something that hasn't made our situation any better.

Additionally, past staff have already done that plot.  Redoing something that big would be pretty predictable.

Quote
I'd prefer it more if the gates weren't closed so that people can use it for trade and the lawless can plunder.

This is an idea we shot down very early as well.

Get your limited edition Tuluk tattoos now.

(http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/jaw%20dropping/grand/jaw-dropping-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-2375.gif)

Quote from: Desertman on April 13, 2015, 02:25:24 PM
(Seriously though, I am sorry for you guys who had to store characters. I know and played with some of you who are currently in leadership positions up there and you were/are awesome. Bring some of that awesome with you when you come to Allanak!)

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 02:31:57 PM
Get your limited edition Tuluk tattoos now.

You can still have them in the future, for what it's worth, as a Tuluki ex-pat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocW3fBqPQkU

Remove Tuluk.

(http://replygif.net/i/500.gif)

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 02:27:04 PM
hi arm mud staff

important question about these recent change

where will i go to buy feathered hatchets and lutes???

Anything integral to the game that was only found in Tuluk can most definitely be moved about.  We'll be focusing first on the really important stuff (we've already discussed mounts) and then move down from there.

I think he meant the ones at IG tattoo sellers  ;)

Quote from: Harmless on April 13, 2015, 02:22:20 PM
Will staff be making an announcement about this visible when logging in? It would help players who don't check the GDB or website. Currently the most recent announcement is May 2014 about Tuluk shrinking. I think that could be replaced no?

Yes, I already updated the Message of the Day to include a link to the GDB about this.  Thanks for bringing it to our attention though, just in case.

Note to add: I totally forgot to make it live in the game.   It has been made live now!  Apologies.

Thank god, a MOTD that isn't about how we can't rape people anymore.


I'm sure this is obvious to everyone else, but ATV is still going to be open, right? They'll be the PCs in charge of policing the northlands, so to speak?

I honestly had a feeling this was coming up. My first char ever was in tuluk, and tuluk was a great experiance for a noob like me.

Excited to see where this goes, though.

Yeah I was referring to the tattoos anyone can buy in the city. And the wealth of other neat items. I'm going to stock up on isilt and bardic supplies and make a killing when nobody can buy it anymore

We've asked for this bed, let's see how we like lying in it.

Or maybe Tuluk can have a "merchant and trade only" area that isn't actually in the city proper where all those things are available.

That said, since staff has been planning this out for a while, I'm willing to hold off on firing suggestions into the dark and see what happens.

I support the change as well. When I was a newer player, I played basically exclusively in Tuluk because it was an easier place to survive and train up and whatnot. As I have gotten more into "Armageddon" (in quotes because I mean the feel and idea of Arm)...I have been more and more of the opinion that Tuluk really didn't fit into the look and feel as much as it maybe should. I think there's a lot of things that could happen with this, and I hope it's able to go in a positive direction overall. I also hope the Tuluki staff don't misread my words--I am not saying they did a poor job with Tuluk.

Big news, still digesting it myself, even though I'm not a Tuluki player.

Quote from: Delirium on April 13, 2015, 02:46:12 PM
Or maybe Tuluk can have a "merchant and trade only" area that isn't actually in the city proper where all those things are available.

That said, since staff has been planning this out for a while, I'm willing to hold off on firing suggestions into the dark and see what happens.

Ahem (Northern Outpost mentioned previously).

I'm looking forward to the (increased) possibility of running into another pc at 5 am when I type 'who' and see 6 other people on as a result of this.

Seems like a great idea.

Quote from: Adhira on April 13, 2015, 02:48:44 PM

Quote from: Delirium on April 13, 2015, 02:46:12 PM
Or maybe Tuluk can have a "merchant and trade only" area that isn't actually in the city proper where all those things are available.

That said, since staff has been planning this out for a while, I'm willing to hold off on firing suggestions into the dark and see what happens.

Ahem (Northern Outpost mentioned previously).

I should have saved that Inglourious Basterds gif for responding to this.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:56:32 PM


The RPT yesterday was not designed to kill people. I will never run an RPT with the express intention of killing PCs.

Name isn't Halaster

I'm wondering whether or not we'll get a handful of tuluki bards in tuluk. That would be so cool!

Quote from: bardlyone on April 13, 2015, 02:49:55 PM
I'm looking forward to the (increased) possibility of running into another pc at 5 am when I type 'who' and see 6 other people on as a result of this.

Seems like a great idea.

In the meantime, all the ATV players lament the loss of the one other person they might encounter at 5am.

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 02:54:19 PM

Quote from: bardlyone on April 13, 2015, 02:49:55 PM
I'm looking forward to the (increased) possibility of running into another pc at 5 am when I type 'who' and see 6 other people on as a result of this.

Seems like a great idea.

In the meantime, all the ATV players lament the loss of the one other person they might encounter at 5am.

Unless ATV were going into Tuluk to meet that one other person, I think this isn't true.

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 02:54:19 PM

Quote from: bardlyone on April 13, 2015, 02:49:55 PM
I'm looking forward to the (increased) possibility of running into another pc at 5 am when I type 'who' and see 6 other people on as a result of this.

Seems like a great idea.

In the meantime, all the ATV players lament the loss of the one other person they might encounter at 5am.

If you're playing an outdoor xenophobic iso role, you probably SHOULD be running into fewer people than someone playing a city-based social role. Especially at 5 am when there's only a handful of people on. I don't know why anyone would expect differently.

ATV are remaining open, yes.

ATV are not police, they care about their own agenda.  This is unchanged.  They are no more isolated than the other d-elf tribes.

That uh, I'm not sure if that's good news or not.

Always love Tuluk here, but interested and excited for this change.

Going along with the GMH/Materials concerns... right now all the wood/branches/rocks/natural resources that the North has are pretty well and sought after. You mentioned ATV and potential Tuluki Enforcers... is this going to mean that people around Tuluk that are grebbing are going to get wombo-combo'd by suddenly-non-virtual patrolling soldiers? Is all "northern resource" trading going to come from the supposed northern outpost?

Quote from: Riev on April 13, 2015, 03:18:39 PM
Always love Tuluk here, but interested and excited for this change.

Going along with the GMH/Materials concerns... right now all the wood/branches/rocks/natural resources that the North has are pretty well and sought after. You mentioned ATV and potential Tuluki Enforcers... is this going to mean that people around Tuluk that are grebbing are going to get wombo-combo'd by suddenly-non-virtual patrolling soldiers? Is all "northern resource" trading going to come from the supposed northern outpost?

I will always give people a heads up they're about to get wombo combo'd.

Thanks seidhr.


If Staff decide to re-open Tuluk at some point, and it isn't a hundred in game years in the future or anything, would those who choose to store their characters at the start of the closure be offered the opportunity to come back?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 03:21:14 PM

If Staff decide to re-open Tuluk at some point, and it isn't a hundred in game years in the future or anything, would those who choose to store their characters at the start of the closure be offered the opportunity to come back?

Quote from: seidhr on April 13, 2015, 03:12:46 PM
ATV are remaining open, yes.

ATV are not police, they care about their own agenda.  This is unchanged.  They are no more isolated than the other d-elf tribes.

(http://i.imgur.com/FVATOM7.jpg)

Probably not. We can help you get your PC out of Tuluk or we can get you into a new PC, but we can't make promises about if or when as Tuluk will continue to develop virtually during the closure. We can't really look that far ahead and decide that old PCs can just step into whatever new beginning Tuluk receives.

I'm just gonna throw this out there...

I hate this decision. I feel sorry for anyone whose played in Tuluk AND I feel worse for Northern Staff, especially after the work that was put in (especially recently... I mean WHY go through the motions on some things if it was going to be closed anyway?).

I feel like anyone whose had an active PC trying to be pro-active in Tuluk just got flushed down the drain.

And yes, I'll send in a request now to vent and sort out this poop sandwich in private.

The way some of my pretty recent interactions with the northern team were phrased make this kind of feel like a sudden decision.

As written by Rathustra in the staff announcement, this decision was made about a month ago. We felt the need to proceed as normal until the time came for a logical closure. This involved making sure the conditions were right for it. Divulging any more would go into IC territory, but I think it's safe to say that some players' plots needed to play out first.

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 03:28:44 PM
I'm just gonna throw this out there...

I hate this decision. I feel sorry for anyone whose played in Tuluk AND I feel worse for Northern Staff, especially after the work that was put in (especially recently... I mean WHY go through the motions on some things if it was going to be closed anyway?).

I feel like anyone whose had an active PC trying to be pro-active in Tuluk just got flushed down the drain.

And yes, I'll send in a request now to vent and sort out this poop sandwich in private.

While I empathize strongly with this (see: drastic character guild changes, sorcerer closure, etc) I've come through the other side and I have to respond with:

Why play a character at all? Every character's story comes to an end. It sucks when it's not in a way you would have chosen, but that's part of playing a collaborative game.

Just seen this as I'm running out the door . I'm shocked . I don't agree.

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 03:28:44 PM
I'm just gonna throw this out there...

I hate this decision. I feel sorry for anyone whose played in Tuluk AND I feel worse for Northern Staff, especially after the work that was put in (especially recently... I mean WHY go through the motions on some things if it was going to be closed anyway?).

I feel like anyone whose had an active PC trying to be pro-active in Tuluk just got flushed down the drain.

And yes, I'll send in a request now to vent and sort out this poop sandwich in private.

As someone who, since starting Armageddon, put years of playtime and stafftime into Tuluk, I can see why you'd think this way. I felt this way at first, too, when being told of the decision. But I slept on it and saw the potential good in it. It's easier to accept this when I thought about it in the long term - about someday unveiling a Newer Tuluk that was better than ever. I also thought about the possibility that that might never happen, and if it doesn't, then all the remaining areas will get even more love not just because of a consolidation of players, but of staff as well. The fact that any changes staff make or any plots staff run will impact a lot more players has a huge net effect on the possible ideas for new things staff could do. I know that I personally have a ton of ideas I'd love to do for the game that I wouldn't have been able to without this.

Quote from: Delirium on April 13, 2015, 03:34:20 PM

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 03:28:44 PM
I'm just gonna throw this out there...

I hate this decision. I feel sorry for anyone whose played in Tuluk AND I feel worse for Northern Staff, especially after the work that was put in (especially recently... I mean WHY go through the motions on some things if it was going to be closed anyway?).

I feel like anyone whose had an active PC trying to be pro-active in Tuluk just got flushed down the drain.

And yes, I'll send in a request now to vent and sort out this poop sandwich in private.

While I empathize strongly with this (see: drastic character guild changes, sorcerer closure, etc) I've come through the other side and I have to respond with:

Why play a character at all? Every character's story comes to an end. It sucks when it's not in a way you would have chosen, but that's part of playing a collaborative game.

Why play a Red Fang?

Why play a Benjari?

Why play a Lyksaen?

Why play an Anyali?

Why play a gypsy?

Quote from: Nergal on April 13, 2015, 03:34:10 PM
As written by Rathustra in the staff announcement, this decision was made about a month ago. We felt the need to proceed as normal until the time came for a logical closure. This involved making sure the conditions were right for it. Divulging any more would go into IC territory, but I think it's safe to say that some players' plots needed to play out first.

2 weeks still seems a very short period of time to go from announcement to closure. I was on vacation for that long earlier this month, didn't check the boards at all. I don't think I'd be very happy if I came back and found out my character was suddenly force-stored.

I've gone out of my way to avoid playing ambitious characters and getting involved in plots that cannot be resolved in an afternoon. My sympathies are really with those players who are more ambitious, had really cool ideas and goals and were committed to making the north fun, interesting, and more Armageddon. I'm more bummed at the prospect of losing those characters players than I am at losing Tuluk.

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 03:28:44 PM
I'm just gonna throw this out there...

I hate this decision. I feel sorry for anyone whose played in Tuluk AND I feel worse for Northern Staff, especially after the work that was put in (especially recently... I mean WHY go through the motions on some things if it was going to be closed anyway?).

I feel like anyone whose had an active PC trying to be pro-active in Tuluk just got flushed down the drain.

And yes, I'll send in a request now to vent and sort out this poop sandwich in private.

I wouldn't beat up staff anymore. You're obviously not alone!

There was an entire generation of players that dealt with the previous storyline arc that left with a bad taste in their mouth, but it was 'for the good of the game' as a whole - And tuluk was still there in the end with a brand new bag of explosive new plots. I know some people had that just flushed clean feeling then too. How could that have played out already? I dunno. Haven't been there. Staff make moves when they have too, and they can only keep so many people happy at once.

Even as I write this my energy for even deliberating this move is already gone. We had ARM 2.0 - Then not. Things kept getting scaled back, smaller tribes, then bigger ones. Now we've finally got a whole city edged out.

Eventually it'll be Luirs gone, then Eventually it'll be just be Allanak, then eventually, we'll all be too old to arm.

Just a natural progression as I see it.

We found out a while ago that this was going to happen. We made a decision at that point to continue to staff for Tuluk as though nothing was different - anything less would be entirely unfair. We weren't just going to kill off swathes of PCs or half-ass it just because 'it was pointless'. It wasn't pointless and we will continue to serve the Northlands for the next two weeks with the same dedication.

Quote from: Aruven on April 13, 2015, 03:54:53 PM
Even as I write this my energy for even deliberating this move is already gone. We had ARM 2.0 - Then not. Things kept getting scaled back, smaller tribes, then bigger ones. Now we've finally got a whole city edged out.

Eventually it'll be Luirs gone, then Eventually it'll be just be Allanak, then eventually, we'll all be too old to arm.

Just a natural progression as I see it.

This goes very much counter to everything we've mentioned already, but I understand and commiserate that this is not an easy thing to deal with (because it was not easy for us to deal with it, either).

Awwwwwwwww ; ( Im going to work. .. first day back since holidays.... im so sad :(

I think 30 days after this change, people are going to really love the increased game activity as a whole and see this as a good thing, even the skeptics.

I hate playing in Allanak and Tuluk was the only concepts that kept me coming back after screaming I quit for the 3525th times so I don't knowhow to take this.

But at least you guys are willing and trying to do the hard changes so that's good.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 03:55:10 PM
We found out a while ago that this was going to happen. We made a decision at that point to continue to staff for Tuluk as though nothing was different - anything less would be entirely unfair. We weren't just going to kill off swathes of PCs or half-ass it just because 'it was pointless'. It wasn't pointless and we will continue to serve the Northlands for the next two weeks with the same dedication.

I appreciate this being the case.

I think its good for the game... still cuts deep.

I really haven't read all the posts to be honest...  but I am just curious what is going to happen to all the items from Tuluk?  Kryl Armor, Tribal Market stuff, all that sorts?  That is a big loss to some really impressive and very well written items that exist in the game.  I do hope there is plans to bring those items still into the game in some way.  Maybe an external market or a market that is still accessible.  Maybe have a small portion that is still open for NPC merchants or something... IDK.

I'm glad to see what is happening with Tuluk, but I just hope that some of it can still exist in the game.

Quote from: Nyr on April 13, 2015, 04:00:00 PM

Quote from: Aruven on April 13, 2015, 03:54:53 PM
Even as I write this my energy for even deliberating this move is already gone. We had ARM 2.0 - Then not. Things kept getting scaled back, smaller tribes, then bigger ones. Now we've finally got a whole city edged out.

Eventually it'll be Luirs gone, then Eventually it'll be just be Allanak, then eventually, we'll all be too old to arm.

Just a natural progression as I see it.

This goes very much counter to everything we've mentioned already, but I understand and commiserate that this is not an easy thing to deal with (because it was not easy for us to deal with it, either).

I'm not trying to be a downer man, i'm just a straightforward person.  Is this not why ultimately Tuluk is closing? Not enough staff or player interest to keep it alive?

I also think it will be alright in the end.

I'm not going to be afraid to say I don't like the change. I'm rolling with it as a player and part of the community, and i'll still vote for this mud :)

Quote from: JustAnotherGuy on April 13, 2015, 04:14:18 PM
I really haven't read all the posts to be honest...  but I am just curious what is going to happen to all the items from Tuluk?  Kryl Armor, Tribal Market stuff, all that sorts?  That is a big loss to some really impressive and very well written items that exist in the game.  I do hope there is plans to bring those items still into the game in some way.  Maybe an external market or a market that is still accessible.  Maybe have a small portion that is still open for NPC merchants or something... IDK.

I'm glad to see what is happening with Tuluk, but I just hope that some of it can still exist in the game.

Since the city is still there (ICly) and since trade and such will virtually occur...and since we are planning to make GMH-specific stuff available on NPC merchants...I don't see why northern-specific goods couldn't be sold at a fat markup.  Also the rest is something Adhira has alluded to.

Edit to add:  that's not to say you're going to see kryl stuff/armor/loot hit like nobody's business, I'm pointing out that there are possibilities here.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:36:12 PM

Quote from: Cavaticus on April 13, 2015, 01:34:56 PM

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:30:57 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

Bolding for effect. All Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

Or discuss your current character. We can help find ways for characters that would otherwise never leave Tuluk find a reason to leave home.

Even my character? ?

Tuluk isn't being 'closed for renovations'. It's also not being closed because players weren't stepping up. It's us, not you.

Also I can't comment for the rest of staff but I'm not in favor of picking all the neat loot from the city and scattering it elsewhere. This can be presented realistically to GMH players or through interactions with the city - or even as part of events involving the city. We're not going to let people pick and choose what parts of the North they get to experience. Because it's absolutely the case that all those well-written items will be back and to hand when Tuluk re-opens.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 04:18:29 PM

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:36:12 PM

Quote from: Cavaticus on April 13, 2015, 01:34:56 PM

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 01:30:57 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

Bolding for effect. All Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

Or discuss your current character. We can help find ways for characters that would otherwise never leave Tuluk find a reason to leave home.

Even my character? ?

Sure, why not. Give it a go.

Quote from: Aruven on April 13, 2015, 04:14:41 PM

Quote from: Nyr on April 13, 2015, 04:00:00 PM

Quote from: Aruven on April 13, 2015, 03:54:53 PM
Even as I write this my energy for even deliberating this move is already gone. We had ARM 2.0 - Then not. Things kept getting scaled back, smaller tribes, then bigger ones. Now we've finally got a whole city edged out.

Eventually it'll be Luirs gone, then Eventually it'll be just be Allanak, then eventually, we'll all be too old to arm.

Just a natural progression as I see it.

This goes very much counter to everything we've mentioned already, but I understand and commiserate that this is not an easy thing to deal with (because it was not easy for us to deal with it, either).

I'm not trying to be a downer man, i'm just a straightforward person.  Is this not why ultimately Tuluk is closing? Not enough staff or player interest to keep it alive?

In the interest of not inundating the thread with a lot of extra posting, I'd recommend you look over the stuff in the announcement as well as the FAQ-like post at the top of this thread.

Announcement (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49199.msg878173.html#msg878173)
FAQ (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878174.html#msg878174)

We painstakingly crafted both; while we haven't answered all possible questions, yours have been answered there.

Venting aside and focusing on actual playability / gameworld and story-wise... Just taking this practically...

This dulls the landscape quite a bit and takes away a lot of playability for the USER.  Theirs no more playable Yang to Allanak's Yin (I'll get to expats in a tick). Will their be more interaction? Probably. But in a way this -does- isolate Luirs and the already isolated Desert Elves even more (who despite being well played and stuck in their lands... always are wanting good interaction). Theirs no more playing a Tuluk with actual backing of a PC active Tuluk. You lack that ever present conflict that existed between the North and the South. That conflict that -drove- so much player wise.

Playing a Tuluki Expat in an Allanak during war-time or even peace time creates more obstacles for a PC than if it was a Breed mutant from the Rinth that lived Southside....(and yes, you don't HAVE to play in Allanak but this decision is certainly motivated by a push to consolidate the playerbase and resources)...

Luirs doesn't have apartments open to the public to take on an actual heavy PC population (logically speaking with whats there...). Red Storm is already full apartment wise all the time (actually I don't know why Tuluk wasn't "Red Stormed". As in all it's coded Nobility / Ruling was just NPC'd and made virtual).

The ONLY good thing that this brings is perhaps opening up room for a new (now desperately needed) coded source of conflict for Allanak. Maybe finally Gith will be opened and active for regular PCs (which won't happen I'd wager).... But Allanak -needs- a Yang -PLAYERS- can interact with and be apart of. Not just virtually but something active and present. Luirs isn't it. D-elves aren't it. Tuluk for the last... 20+ years was it.

Even if it's not Tuluk, it needs to be something. And this isn't something that's a "Be the Change" thing esp w. the current situation. This is a practical gameworld / playability / story aspect that -needs- to be filled for both Player and Storyteller and GM.

I certainly hope the thought process that went into making the decision to close Tuluk has been put into finding a viable, coded and engaging (and fun) solution for the above.

While both sides of the War were rocking the opportunities and building massive gains towards strongly-accomodated, player-run plots - these weren't plots involving direct antagonism. Tuluki PCs weren't directly harassing Allanakki PCs apart from when these plots were sprung and things were already a go. There was no yang. The yang were on the opposite side of the game world. The yang were an idea, not a real and present danger. In either direction.

I have read that FAQ, and I cannot help but feel Question #3 was dodged.

Quote
Tuluk is doing well.  Why do this now?
The most simple answer is that Tuluk has always existed as a place for players to play in, therefore it has always been seen as a place that needed to be staffed, needed to be improved, and needed to be played in.  We have done many things to attempt to stay ahead there, and one of the few things we haven't tried is "just not letting people play there/staff there" and no longer spend time working on it, freeing up staff to work in areas that find more player interest.

If Tuluk is doing well (which Staff seems to tacitly agree with, by phrasing the question that way), it's difficult to see this decision as being made in any other light than "Staff are tired of staffing Tuluk and trying to 'fix' it." Posts that "it isn't you, it's us" and your own infamous quotation Nyr of Tuluk being something that's "Tolerated" by staff don't do a lot to dispel this notion.

What was it specifically about Tuluk that Staff found so draining that it was decided to close the City entirely, rather than run it on a skeleton crew, "Red Storm" it or other alternatives?

EDIT: I guess I should say I feel like Question 3 should have been phrased Tuluk is doing well. Why do this at all?

I'm serious about the Levies. If you play peak, and love low-class gameplay, and haven't done the Levies, these are your last two weeks to get in.

Dakota:

Removing Tuluk from PC play does remove playability options for the user.  It also consolidates staff/or freeing them up for existing work that does need to be done, thereby increasing the benefit to the user, and allowing us to find other playability options for the user.  We do realize that there are obstacles for Tuluki PC ex-pats and we will be working on that. We do realize that this will create strain on existing PC resources such as apartments.  We are prepared to deal with that.  We are also (as mentioned) looking at expanding involvement in Luir's and Red Storm.  I'm not sure where to go with the Gith PCs thing though, we haven't at any point mentioned that.

I've had so many good times with my old PCs in Tuluk. But I see the point here, and I support this decision.
I always wanted to play a Faithful, so I will impatiently wait for the day when I will have the chance to submit such a role-call.

Quote from: Cind on April 13, 2015, 04:42:26 PM
I'm serious about the Levies. If you play peak, and love low-class gameplay, and haven't done the Levies, these are your last two weeks to get in.

Levies are/were great if you can attend regularly. I've really enjoyed my time in them. I would totally support Allanak getting some sort of equivalent - real militia as opposed to the AOD militia-in-name-but-really-professional-soldiers.

Maybe I'll work on that when I'm down there.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 04:45:57 PM

Quote from: Cind on April 13, 2015, 04:42:26 PM
I'm serious about the Levies. If you play peak, and love low-class gameplay, and haven't done the Levies, these are your last two weeks to get in.

Levies are/were great if you can attend regularly. I've really enjoyed my time in them. I would totally support Allanak getting some sort of equivalent - real militia as opposed to the AOD militia-in-name-but-really-professional-soldiers.

Maybe I'll work on that when I'm down there.

No screw you the levies are my best idea (c) Rathustra 2014/15 do not steal.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 04:39:36 PM
There was no yang. The yang were on the opposite side of the game world. The yang were an idea, not a real and present danger. In either direction.

It -was- an idea that -was- physically and codedly there.

It's not about showing good RP and making out like theirs a big bad monster at the end of this dark cave with the odd room echo reinforcing it... It's the fact that it -is- actually there which motivates the RP (thus the players) in the first place.

Nvm.

Does this mean noble clans with combat divisions will actually get to open them?

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 04:47:09 PM

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 04:39:36 PM
There was no yang. The yang were on the opposite side of the game world. The yang were an idea, not a real and present danger. In either direction.

It -was- an idea that -was- physically and codedly there.

It's not about showing good RP and making out like theirs a big bad monster at the end of this dark cave with the odd room echo reinforcing it... It's the fact that it -is- actually there which motivates the RP (thus the players) in the first place.

Eh, as a player who's had PCs on both sides of the war, I feel like the War could have, was, and can be still carried out without the opponent faction being made up of PCs. In fact, I'll say it can be done even better if one faction is mostly or entirely animated.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 04:46:37 PM
No screw you the levies are my best idea (c) Rathustra 2014/15 do not steal.

sorry wut lemme just play u the knowns tiniest lute O WAIT YOU STORED ALL TEH INSTRUMENTS 2

Quote from: Nyr on April 13, 2015, 04:44:56 PM
Dakota:

Removing Tuluk from PC play does remove playability options for the user.  It also consolidates staff/or freeing them up for existing work that does need to be done, thereby increasing the benefit to the user, and allowing us to find other playability options for the user.  We do realize that there are obstacles for Tuluki PC ex-pats and we will be working on that. We do realize that this will create strain on existing PC resources such as apartments.  We are prepared to deal with that.  We are also (as mentioned) looking at expanding involvement in Luir's and Red Storm.  I'm not sure where to go with the Gith PCs thing though, we haven't at any point mentioned that.

Nyr: I wasn't referring to current Tuluki PC's and their dilemma in that post... but more about what this decision does (and nothing else to come and take the torch) does for the actual conflict / playability / story and roleplay dynamic of the game itself. While you do consolidate staff resources (and the playerbase) you risk in losing a -lot- depth wise to the game itself.

(And even if I never played in Tuluk before and wanted it gone, I would still feel this way... Their -needs- to be an active source of friction to Allanak that isn't just Smoke and a Roleplay Doc.)

That being said, whatever hopefully -is- done to fill this void, I hope it's awesome.

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 04:35:59 PM
Theirs no more playable Yang to Allanak's Yin

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 04:35:59 PM
But Allanak -needs- a Yang

(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg)

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about this. I see the opportunities for the rest of the game to benefit, but I also really enjoyed the docs behind new Tuluk and wish more players had let go of the old Tuluk mindset to allow the new one a better chance to shine.

I know we're all sad or happy or whatever, but a big thank you to Nyr and Rathustra and Calavera and everyone else who put in all that work revamping Tuluk and supporting it in the months afterward. You guys won me over, and I was an avowed Tuluk hater. I imagine that as much as you guys are looking forward to the good things that will come, coming to this decision was a bummer.

Quote from: LauraMars on April 13, 2015, 04:57:35 PM

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 04:35:59 PM
Theirs no more playable Yang to Allanak's Yin

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 04:35:59 PM
But Allanak -needs- a Yang

(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/oXw6A6H.jpg)
Nerve staples for everyone.

Tuluki expats could form a terrorist group and terrorize Allanak from within.

Get at it, people

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 04:58:07 PM
I know we're all sad or happy or whatever, but a big thank you to Nyr and Rathustra and Calavera and everyone else who put in all that work revamping Tuluk and supporting it in the months afterward.

+1

Can I get my PC in Tuluk transmogrified into a rinther pl0x.

Quote from: Inks on April 13, 2015, 05:01:29 PM
Can I get my PC in Tuluk transmogrified into a rinther pl0x.

No, but we might be able to get you close.

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 04:59:29 PM
Tuluki expats could form a terrorist group and terrorize Allanak from within.

Get at it, people

I like your line of thinking. :D

Quote from: Naruto on April 13, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 13, 2015, 04:58:07 PM
I know we're all sad or happy or whatever, but a big thank you to Nyr and Rathustra and Calavera and everyone else who put in all that work revamping Tuluk and supporting it in the months afterward.

+1

Yeah this. THIS.

My disbelief was at the limited amount of time I feel this got to shine. I was around for the early discussions (that were made available to players). I would have stored my character tonight and taken up a staff position if allowed to help keep things running!

I pretty much spent that entire time NOT experiencing the awesomeness due to the nature of my previous character being SO TULUK. Now my loss is complete, and I am like grieving for work I didn't even do.

I'd do it for the love.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 05:03:07 PM

Quote from: Inks on April 13, 2015, 05:01:29 PM
Can I get my PC in Tuluk transmogrified into a rinther pl0x.

No, but we might be able to get you close.

What you mean?

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 13, 2015, 04:49:17 PM
Does this mean noble clans with combat divisions will actually get to open them?

Another great benefit, if done.

As others have stated, once Tuluk has closed and Allanak and the southern hemisphere is brimming with activity, I feel like those who are initially dismayed will soon come to enjoy this change. I haven't been this excited for Armageddon in a while.

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 13, 2015, 04:49:17 PM
Does this mean noble clans with combat divisions will actually get to open them?

More murder and betrayal in Allanak!!!  8)

Quote from: Delirium on April 13, 2015, 02:38:14 PM
(http://replygif.net/i/500.gif)

I got to this post and I hjust can't go any further. My glee. I can't contain my glee.

Actually a thought. Will the northlands become a gicker/raider paradise?

I recommend Northland loving players to consider: d-elves, human tribals, Luir's residents, Morin's loggers, wanderers of the gol and vagabonds of the north - if the prospect of being a nakki 'minion' doesn't appeal.

Bringing it down from the inside.

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 13, 2015, 04:49:17 PM
Does this mean noble clans with combat divisions will actually get to open them?

With only virtual conflict and npcs to fight,  they would have even less stuff to fight than they ever  I'm thinking.

Quote from: Inks on April 13, 2015, 05:15:42 PM
Actually a thought. Will the northlands become a gicker/raider paradise?

It's been said earlier (page 2 or 3, I think?) that Staff will be monitoring the Northlands and anyone who isn't RPing there "appropriately" will be dealt with.

This made me cancel my storage request I put in last night. This could change so much about the game I'm in utter, ecstatic disbelief. It's like when you grudgingly repeat a joke over a couple years, expecting nobody to laugh, then suddenly uproarious applause and cheers rings out in adulation of your humor and wit. Okay not really like that at all, but still, this makes me feel vindicated.

Quote from: Inks on April 13, 2015, 05:15:42 PM
Actually a thought. Will the northlands become a gicker/raider paradise?

I don't think the staff will allow that, since Rath said one could expect a hoard of hg Tuluki soldiers anytime around Tuluk.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 05:17:28 PM

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 13, 2015, 04:49:17 PM
Does this mean noble clans with combat divisions will actually get to open them?

With only virtual conflict and npcs to fight,  they would have even less stuff to fight than they ever  I'm thinking.

I'm wagering you're wrong. I've played in the AOD when Tuluk was a thing and equally populated, and all our PVP interactions were varying levels of clusterfucks. I'd much rather fight NPCs and Staff animations.

If Borsail Wyverns open again, I hope Staff makes the mul outpost more of a thing. That'd be kind of sweet I'm thinking.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 05:17:40 PM

Quote from: Inks on April 13, 2015, 05:15:42 PM
Actually a thought. Will the northlands become a gicker/raider paradise?

It's been said earlier (page 2 or 3, I think?) that Staff will be monitoring the Northlands and anyone who isn't RPing there "appropriately" will be dealt with.

If it means getting dumped into Allanak with a northern accent and a tattoo  as well store since you'll be dead within days and if it means getting dumped in Luis then you'll wish you were dead two days  in hehe

Bump me to karma 12 or give me death! !! 11!

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 05:17:28 PM

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 13, 2015, 04:49:17 PM
Does this mean noble clans with combat divisions will actually get to open them?

With only virtual conflict and npcs to fight,  they would have even less stuff to fight than they ever  I'm thinking.

That is incredibly wrong. Internal conflict is a thing.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 05:17:28 PM

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 13, 2015, 04:49:17 PM
Does this mean noble clans with combat divisions will actually get to open them?

With only virtual conflict and npcs to fight,  they would have even less stuff to fight than they ever  I'm thinking.

Virtual conflict? I so want to see Tor Scorpions vs Borsail Wyverns.
Plus don't forget the effect of the Rinth on the Naki politics. This change will definitely boost Rinthi pop as well.

I like and dislike this at the same time.
I like the idea of having to figure out "Well what the fuck do I do now" in character. Making up the reason would be pretty good. Very good actually.
This is the staff indirectly giving me a plot, and I really like that.
Though I will miss Tuluk for the obvious reasons.
The area.
The people.
My character missing his friends.
All that.

Pro's: I get a reason to adventure!

Con's Ripperino.

Point of this statement: Think of it as a big adventure you don't get a large say in but might be fun.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 05:27:29 PM
Pro's: I get a reason to adventure!

Same here, I really need one outside Tuluk.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 05:23:10 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 05:17:40 PM

Quote from: Inks on April 13, 2015, 05:15:42 PM
Actually a thought. Will the northlands become a gicker/raider paradise?

It's been said earlier (page 2 or 3, I think?) that Staff will be monitoring the Northlands and anyone who isn't RPing there "appropriately" will be dealt with.

If it means getting dumped into Allanak with a northern accent and a tattoo  as well store since you'll be dead within days and if it means getting dumped in Luis then you'll wish you were dead two days  in hehe

Bump me to karma 12 or give me death! !! 11!

kill all northmen those fuckers are all spies

virtual spies

Arm is about the journey instead of the destination.  It's about the situations you find yourself in as a character and how you react to them, and how others react to them.  Some of these situations we can choose for ourselves, others we cannot - whether that's being forced to leave Tuluk or living in Tuluk (or Nak) and a powerful person decides to dislike your character.

I just wanted to say that all of us on staff have empathy for those of you who are being adversely impacted by this announcement, but for those of you who are able to move, I think it presents some really interesting opportunities as well.  

Not trying to get too IC exposing at all, but isn't there a bounty in the South still on Northies? Also, Tuluk is home to the easiest creatures for noobs to hunt. Where will all the creature parts go to if some noob is trying to make a quick living? Will they have to travel all the way South to Luirs?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 04:40:52 PM
I have read that FAQ, and I cannot help but feel Question #3 was dodged.

I'm happy to respond, because this was something answered by a lot of the answers, but not put in one place.

Quote
If Tuluk is doing well (which Staff seems to tacitly agree with, by phrasing the question that way), it's difficult to see this decision as being made in any other light than "Staff are tired of staffing Tuluk and trying to 'fix' it." Posts that "it isn't you, it's us" and your own infamous quotation Nyr of Tuluk being something that's "Tolerated" by staff don't do a lot to dispel this notion.

What was it specifically about Tuluk that Staff found so draining that it was decided to close the City entirely, rather than run it on a skeleton crew, "Red Storm" it or other alternatives?

EDIT: I guess I should say I feel like Question 3 should have been phrased Tuluk is doing well. Why do this at all?

It would be disingenuous for us to say we're tired of staffing Tuluk without taking into account the bigger picture.  We like it.  I'd go so far as to say that oftentimes those of us that were champions of the region (players and staff doing our best to turn around previous misconceptions or outright bad roleplay) probably did get tired of constantly trying to convince people "no really you guys, Tuluk."  That's tangential, but it is relevant.  We don't think it needs fixing in a documentation/structural sense; we've definitely done a lot of work there.  We do think its existence as a place for PCs to play in is not going to work right now, not and give the whole game the attention it really needs.

It's more difficult to discuss Tuluk and whether it is "doing well or not" when it is still being played actively, when things are still raw, when the news is still fresh.  That is part of why this question might well be a "dodge" right now:  we will not be focusing that much on the negatives in this thread, at least for the next couple of days.  We're currently spending more time working directly with the affected players/getting things situated there.

Skeleton crew:  Assuming you mean it will still be staffed but minimally, then we must determine what minimal staffing is.  Would anyone want to staff an area determined to be the "skeleton crew" area?  Most teams have multiple areas going in multiple directions; this one would be grunge work and no fun.  We could rotate in and out quickly perhaps to minimize it, but this creates a whole different burden on staff.  Finally, somewhat related, but three people running a city-state as staff as a matter of course is already pretty minimal.  More could be done with more people focused in the same area.  We want to get to that and give it a shot, so we did not opt for a skeleton crew.

Red Storm it:  Assuming you mean it would not be staffed anymore than, say, Cenyr or Red Storm or any outpost area might be staffed (presently at least) then we must determine what is acceptable.  Do we simply let people set up their own fiefdoms inside Tuluk because we don't want to deal with it anymore?  Would players choose to play there solely because we've said we're not going to staff there?  How bad can that get when we start going down that rabbit hole?  We ultimately decided this would be a bad idea.

Why do this at all?  I have spoken to a few staffers about this, and while I won't call this consensus or me speaking for all of them, it seemed as though the initial reaction was shock, then denial, then acceptance, then some sort of eyes-glazed-over glee at the prospect of a staffed and played to the gills consolidated city-state, or of being able to "think bigger" about the independent areas.  So many project ideas and plot ideas have sprung up in the aftermath of this decision that it has been a bit overwhelming.  It may come as a shock to (some?) players, but we sincerely enjoy making a world that players enjoy, a world that is brought to life and is made better by player reactions and proactive work to develop even more plots.  There is more bang for the buck in putting more staff in one basket, more players in one basket, and then doing things for those players in that basket so that it overflows and affects the smaller (but still important) other baskets in the game.

Quote from: Armageddonmud
on April 27, we will be closing Tuluk for PC play and making it virtual.

What is a Tuluk?

PS: Not trolling. I already forgot about it.  ;)

Quote from: deathkamon on April 13, 2015, 05:33:34 PM
Not trying to get too IC exposing at all, but isn't there a bounty in the South still on Northies?

QuoteWhat does this mean for the war effort?
We've talked before about how we want to see more nuanced roleplay than enemy city-states that duke it out constantly.

However, further IC stuff will be discussed as it comes up.

Question that might have already been asked/stuff:
Will there be any sort of small Tuluk based outpost near the north/areas like it in Luirs (If there aren't already) so you can still get Tuluk specific things.
Souvenirs and junk, or the now npc house goods like instruments/things based only in Tuluk.
Or is there no real "Tuluk" Only stuff and I'm over thinking the regional amount of goods one side may have.

I think this is a great change and look forward to battling the hoards of northern zombies.

Quote from: Rhyden on April 13, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
I think this is a great change and look forward to battling the hoards of northern zombies.

Why would there be northern zombies?

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
Question that might have already been asked/stuff:
Will there be any sort of small Tuluk based outpost near the north/areas like it in Luirs (If there aren't already) so you can still get Tuluk specific things.
Souvenirs and junk, or the now npc house goods like instruments/things based only in Tuluk.
Or is there no real "Tuluk" Only stuff and I'm over thinking the regional amount of goods one side may have.

Short answer - Yes.

There will be a solution to this. More will be revealed in about 2 weeks time.

Okay, thanks!
I'm almost certain this has been answered but I can't seem to find it.....What happens if you don't leave Tuluk the day it is closed off? Does the character die/become inaccessible or do you spawn in and you need to ask someone to tp you out or something.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
Question that might have already been asked/stuff:
Will there be any sort of small Tuluk based outpost near the north/areas like it in Luirs (If there aren't already) so you can still get Tuluk specific things.
Souvenirs and junk, or the now npc house goods like instruments/things based only in Tuluk.
Or is there no real "Tuluk" Only stuff and I'm over thinking the regional amount of goods one side may have.

Certain things will be available in certain places that will remain accessible.  Other things may become impossible to acquire.  I expect there will be a certain degree of playing by ear for this, though we are keeping a list of to-dos for things we deem necessary.  Someone mentioned inix earlier in the thread, that's one thing that we had already thought of, for example.

I've been super-busy at work and so haven't had a chance to reply here--but as mentioned, sponsored roles within Allanak will be increased in number at some point. Clan caps will be revisited. I can't answer about noble house guard role position stuff because, to be honest, we still need to make sure that job roles in clans are not boring and pointless. It's something I'm thinking about and will look at with my team, but don't expect an answer on that immediately. (There is so much other stuff that is higher-priority right now.)

Sounds like a good opportunity for clerks in the AoD.

To actually speak, I like the change. Tuluk was intimidating and I felt obligated to play there. My first character started there and died in no time flat, but I'll always remember my first steps into the city.

My concern is mostly in the general Northlands. Playing around a virtual city sounds awkward. But that's just me. I was pissed at first that this was done OOC but after thinking it over in glad it's now just openable if minds change.

Is there going to be an IC exodus event for PCs to react to (plague etc.) or is this entirely business as usual?

Quote from: aeglaeca on April 13, 2015, 06:09:21 PM
Is there going to be an IC exodus event for PCs to react to (plague etc.) or is this entirely business as usual?

Yes.

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/1fcc6e8544e8eb131d929fc7eb017180/tumblr_nek9wrzSFI1s3lkzpo1_500.gif)

Sorry, there can be only one.

Man, and I was hoping I wouldn't have to log in between April 24-27  :-\

Fantastic move guys...  this was the hard decision that we all will look back on and say it was the beginning of Armageddon's golden age.

This must have been a really hard decision. I think it's the right one. I'm still in a position where I can't really play, but I wanted to express sympathy to people who will be losing their roles. As someone who's had to deal with that before, it stinks. It stinks like a big poo-filled diaper of stink.

But overall, I think this is a good move for the future of the game.

Fair question:  Are their any other areas of the game where players are currently active that Staff is thinking of / planning to close up shop?

Edit: This is directed to the Producers as I assume these decisions start and end with them.

Hm...
Is storing a character for "I see no reason for my character to leave Tuluk" and later down the road Tuluk reopen, is that a valid reason for re starting that character up?

They said that they don't know when Tuluk will reopen.  It's not a possibility.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 06:25:26 PM
Hm...
Is storing a character for "I see no reason for my character to leave Tuluk" and later down the road Tuluk reopen, is that a valid reason for re starting that character up?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 03:21:14 PM
If Staff decide to re-open Tuluk at some point, and it isn't a hundred in game years in the future or anything, would those who choose to store their characters at the start of the closure be offered the opportunity to come back?

Quote from: Rathustra on April 13, 2015, 03:26:48 PM
Probably not. We can help you get your PC out of Tuluk or we can get you into a new PC, but we can't make promises about if or when as Tuluk will continue to develop virtually during the closure. We can't really look that far ahead and decide that old PCs can just step into whatever new beginning Tuluk receives.

Can I stay near Little Tuluk and play by myself and with visitors when they come to the souvenir shop?

Thanks for the quotes for replies! Didn't see them.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 06:30:42 PM
Can I stay near Little Tuluk and play by myself and with visitors when they come to the souvenir shop?

Yes.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 06:30:42 PM
Can I stay near Little Tuluk and play by myself and with visitors when they come to the souvenir shop?

We prefer to call it 'Tiny Tuluk - Treasure Outpost'

Will there be insta-aggro tuluk npc's near the North? -Please no-

If any other 'major' areas are added, will we see maps added?

For all you Nakki-hating Tulukis.....

I can already see the refugee mobs in Red Storm.
Vivalarevelution! (so long as you do all your shit-stirring outside of the gates)

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 06:40:26 PM
Will there be insta-aggro tuluk npc's near the North? -Please no-

Take the time to read all of the posts here to get your answer.

Quote from: Barsook on April 13, 2015, 06:44:16 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 06:40:26 PM
Will there be insta-aggro tuluk npc's near the North? -Please no-

Take the time to read all of the posts here to get your answer.

I feel dumb, going to mass scan the comments.

Quote from: Barsook on April 13, 2015, 06:44:16 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 06:40:26 PM
Will there be insta-aggro tuluk npc's near the North? -Please no-

Take the time to read all of the posts here to get your answer.

When I started reading this thread there were five pages.... when I got caught up there were nine. Wow.

YOu could probably Control+F on "Administrator" and "Producer" and find most of the answers. Rathustra, Nyr, and Adhira have been answering most of them.

To my question of NPCs and junk I found "Tuluk isn't vanishing. If you cast in the North and don't respect the virtual world. I will load an army of HG soldiers to batter you. In a way this is a liberation. I don't need to rely on PCs anymore."
I'm going to guess people who aren't causing trouble/have tattoos aren't going to get insta ganked.
Though I guess if you walk around with a group of Nakki elves and keep killing everyone that moves, the admins are going to get a bit ticked.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
To my question of NPCs and junk I found "Tuluk isn't vanishing. If you cast in the North and don't respect the virtual world. I will load an army of HG soldiers to batter you. In a way this is a liberation. I don't need to rely on PCs anymore."
I'm going to guess people who aren't causing trouble/have tattoos aren't going to get insta ganked.
Though I guess if you walk around with a group of Nakki elves and keep killing everyone that moves, the admins are going to get a bit ticked.

It's actually pretty simple really. Treat the game world with respect. Roleplay properly, and things will be as they should be. The world isn't going to change dramatically. There won't be roving hordes of feral Tuluki soldiers out to kill everything in sight. But if you're up there disregarding the world and acting like Tuluk doesn't exist. Acting like it's a free-for-all stomping ground, then you may get a reaction in kind. We hope that our players won't do that, and that our staff won't react in such a way.

What Rathustra really means is that Tuluk will still exist and we as staff will animate it in that manner. We will have Tuluk NPCs react appropriately as situations arise in game. So that's what should be considered.

Another problem I can think of is that for people that die often they will find themselves back with the old PCs they were interacting with and I know that the answer to that might be play a d elf or a tribal dude but there is no way in hell I would want to play either (luckily, I can survive forever, so I'm mostly noting that for those who tend to die easily and might not enjoy the idea of d elves and tribals).

I hope we won't be "heavily suggested" to create a PC elsewhere than Allanak if we end up making many in a row and unfortunately finding ourselves bumping into the same PCs our past characters knew. It'll be much harder to avoid.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 05:42:53 PM
Okay, thanks!
I'm almost certain this has been answered but I can't seem to find it.....What happens if you don't leave Tuluk the day it is closed off? Does the character die/become inaccessible or do you spawn in and you need to ask someone to tp you out or something.

I can answer this one.  There will be code in place that will shunt you instantly to a nearby yet to be determined location.

Okay, thanks for the reply.
I keep feeling that people will do the 'gotta hide my tattoos and move south' thing but considering how Tuluk is still there that isn't a very good reason.
Or maybe that idea just keeps crossing my mind.

Excited to be here, sad I won't get to play another Tuluki PC, at least immediately.

Still a hard change for many I'm sure, staff and players both.  MUD areas have a way of becoming homes that exist inside our mind.

Allanak might be indelibly changed by this as well, as the creative minds that worked on the north migrate south to make their mark.  By all accounts, this is a new era for the game.  

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 06:21:34 PM
Fair question:  Are their any other areas of the game where players are currently active that Staff is thinking of / planning to close up shop?

Edit: This is directed to the Producers as I assume these decisions start and end with them.

No.

Maybe politics will become more subtlety based because of northern influence. Elves will get slightly less shit, atleast publicly. Magickers might get shit on even more. Etc.
Or anyone talking that crazy talk will get sassed at.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 07:00:20 PM
Another problem I can think of is that for people that die often they will find themselves back with the old PCs they were interacting with and I know that the answer to that might be play a d elf or a tribal dude but there is no way in hell I would want to play either (luckily, I can survive forever, so I'm mostly noting that for those who tend to die easily and might not enjoy the idea of d elves and tribals).

I hope we won't be "heavily suggested" to create a PC elsewhere than Allanak if we end up making many in a row and unfortunately finding ourselves bumping into the same PCs our past characters knew. It'll be much harder to avoid.

This is a fair concern, but I have been knowingly(to staff) creating PC's in pretty much only Allanak for a long time and there's never been a problem. Usually I just go to a different clan and that's more than enough distance. Sometimes I've even joined the same clan, but made sure my character was very different.

At the end of the day where we want to play is up to us, but staff will encourage you to pick somewhere new to avoid slipping up in your roleplay.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 07:00:20 PM
Another problem I can think of is that for people that die often they will find themselves back with the old PCs they were interacting with and I know that the answer to that might be play a d elf or a tribal dude but there is no way in hell I would want to play either (luckily, I can survive forever, so I'm mostly noting that for those who tend to die easily and might not enjoy the idea of d elves and tribals).

I hope we won't be "heavily suggested" to create a PC elsewhere than Allanak if we end up making many in a row and unfortunately finding ourselves bumping into the same PCs our past characters knew. It'll be much harder to avoid.

Honestly, this is one of the things I'm worried about.  I don't even die that often, I just like city RP + not playing with a bunch of people my former PC knew.  I'm hoping that apartments and things will be added to Red Storm and Luirs to make them more viable options for cityish RP outside of Allanak.  In theory there should be more people playing in those locations in the near future, so maybe they'll work out as a place to wait a few months for everyone my PC knew in Allanak to die or store.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 07:00:20 PM
Another problem I can think of is that for people that die often they will find themselves back with the old PCs they were interacting with and I know that the answer to that might be play a d elf or a tribal dude but there is no way in hell I would want to play either (luckily, I can survive forever, so I'm mostly noting that for those who tend to die easily and might not enjoy the idea of d elves and tribals).

I hope we won't be "heavily suggested" to create a PC elsewhere than Allanak if we end up making many in a row and unfortunately finding ourselves bumping into the same PCs our past characters knew. It'll be much harder to avoid.

I think what RGS said is pretty good. I would also say that it's very possible to play IN Allanak with different PCs and yet not always be playing with the same other PCs. The Byn, GMHs, indie clans, noble clans, AoD are all options, as is the Labyrinth, for play within Allanak. I think there's enough variety there and many places in the southlands will be pretty bumping.

Though in many ways this is a really hard change, it's an exciting one. What I didn't say earlier but wanted to, is that I very much appreciate the way this was handled. I appreciate that you guys went out of your way to communicate not just what the changes are, but that you recognize that it's hard for people and you did weigh that in deciding.

Quote from: Barzalene on April 13, 2015, 07:11:51 PM
Though in many ways this is a really hard change, it's an exciting one. What I didn't say earlier but wanted to, is that I very much appreciate the way this was handled. I appreciate that you guys went out of your way to communicate not just what the changes are, but that you recognize that it's hard for people and you did weigh that in deciding.

It's hard for staff too. A lot of us have deep love for Tuluk, me included. And we respect that players feel that same love.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 13, 2015, 07:08:41 PM
This is a fair concern, but I have been knowingly(to staff) creating PC's in pretty much only Allanak for a long time and there's never been a problem. Usually I just go to a different clan and that's more than enough distance. Sometimes I've even joined the same clan, but made sure my character was very different.

At the end of the day where we want to play is up to us, but staff will encourage you to pick somewhere new to avoid slipping up in your roleplay.

Yeah but while you were doing this others were moving around so while you stuck to Allanak forever you had new players coming in from elsewhere and dead Nakkis moving out too. Now we are sorta all tossed in the same stew and even if you stir players around there still very limited options until we end up creating the Charles II of Spain of role play.

Quote from: CodeMaster on April 13, 2015, 07:04:34 PM
Allanak might be indelibly changed by this as well, as the creative minds that worked on the north migrate south to make their mark.  By all accounts, this is a new era for the game.  

I'm honestly kind of worried about this, since the north evidently wasn't a successful product. I hope the creative minds help enhance Allanak's (And Luir's, and Red Storm, and the rest of the Known's) existing flavors  and not try and force unsuccessful northern elements  back in.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 07:18:01 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on April 13, 2015, 07:04:34 PM
Allanak might be indelibly changed by this as well, as the creative minds that worked on the north migrate south to make their mark.  By all accounts, this is a new era for the game.  

I'm honestly kind of worried about this, since the north evidently wasn't a successful product. I hope the creative minds help enhance Allanak's (And Luir's, and Red Storm, and the rest of the Known's) existing flavors  and not try and force unsuccessful northern elements  back in.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

If this makes sense,
I hope that the new ideas are a seasoning, not a melting pot. Add something alittle extra but you still have the same food.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2015, 07:14:56 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 13, 2015, 07:08:41 PM
This is a fair concern, but I have been knowingly(to staff) creating PC's in pretty much only Allanak for a long time and there's never been a problem. Usually I just go to a different clan and that's more than enough distance. Sometimes I've even joined the same clan, but made sure my character was very different.

At the end of the day where we want to play is up to us, but staff will encourage you to pick somewhere new to avoid slipping up in your roleplay.

Yeah but while you were doing this others were moving around so while you stuck to Allanak forever you had new players coming in from elsewhere and dead Nakkis moving out too. Now we are sorta all tossed in the same stew and even if you stir players around there still very limited options until we end up creating the Charles II of Spain of role play.

I suppose that's where D-elves, Red-Storm, Tribal humans, Luirs, and the Labyrinth come into play. All of which should be getting more players.



Another benifit from this I just realized is The Byn, and the GMH's won't be so split up and spread out. I long for the days of having 3 Byn sergeants in Allanak again. I wonder how the upcoming exodus-plot will affect GMH's who get most of their product from up north. More retrieval/hunting RPT's?

GMH Field Ops extended material extraction excursions, in my hopeful opinion.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 07:18:01 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on April 13, 2015, 07:04:34 PM
Allanak might be indelibly changed by this as well, as the creative minds that worked on the north migrate south to make their mark.  By all accounts, this is a new era for the game. 

I'm honestly kind of worried about this, since the north evidently wasn't a successful product. I hope the creative minds help enhance Allanak's (And Luir's, and Red Storm, and the rest of the Known's) existing flavors  and not try and force unsuccessful northern elements  back in.

We do staff rotations and move staff around to new positions about once every year/year and a half or so.  The clan rotations we take on are just those--rotations. While we are there, we aim to do a good job and treat it well, but moving from one spot to another doesn't necessitate that the staff member bring the same ideas along (except in a general sense--like pushing to get documentation updated, for instance).

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 07:18:01 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on April 13, 2015, 07:04:34 PM
Allanak might be indelibly changed by this as well, as the creative minds that worked on the north migrate south to make their mark.  By all accounts, this is a new era for the game.  

I'm honestly kind of worried about this, since the north evidently wasn't a successful product. I hope the creative minds help enhance Allanak's (And Luir's, and Red Storm, and the rest of the Known's) existing flavors  and not try and force unsuccessful northern elements  back in.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

This isn't really that much of a concern for us on staff. We really operate much more as a team than appearances lead you to believe. While one person may post a change, or make the documentation change, they never make those decisions on their own. They always post them up for discussion. They usually aren't the only person that has worked on them. Tuluk didn't get they way it was by the work of just one person, or three, or even six. It was the work of many many staffers, and players. The same can be said of Allanak. The staff who have worked on Tuluk have also spent time on Allanak, and so forth.

Those creative minds have rotated in and out and around, and even when their names haven't been attached visibly to a project they have had influence. You may fear the 'melting pot' syndrome but staff has always operated in this fashion.

Quote from: Nyr on April 13, 2015, 07:27:34 PM
We do staff rotations and move staff around to new positions about once every year/year and a half or so.  The clan rotations we take on are just those--rotations. While we are there, we aim to do a good job and treat it well, but moving from one spot to another doesn't necessitate that the staff member bring the same ideas along (except in a general sense--like pushing to get documentation updated, for instance).

Yeah--just as we expect players to play by the docs when they are creating a PC in a new location, staff also "plays by the docs" when we move to a new location. Allanak has its own distinct culture, as does Red Storm, as does the Labyrinth, as does Luir's, as do each of the desert elf tribes, human tribes, etc. And although individual staff members may have specialties as far as their play experience or staffing experience, collectively we have experience in all of it--and we rely on one another to be experts in areas we are not, personally.

SNIPED BY ADHIRA.

Honestly, being a tuluki player right now, I actually canceled a store request because of this happening, because rp and adventure is about the journey, and I'm excited to see where this new change could lead to in a journey for my character.

Sometimes its best to embrace change in a rp setting and just make the best of it!

My apologizes if I sounded like I'm afraid of one staffer coming in and ruining it all (RATHUSTRA!!!111!!). That is not how I meant to be taken. To me there seems to be something fundamentally flawed with the design of Tuluk that no amount of doc changes could address. My feeling is that it was the fact it is so easy to survive up there at all social levels. I never felt at risk in the City, or even for my friends who ride out routinely.

Allanak is a more lethal setting. Character turn over is higher. This has the effect of stirring the pot more, keeping things from getting calcified and stagnant. Unless the environment of Vrun Driath is radically changed to make it more survivable (which Staff has emphatically said is not going to be the case), I'm not too afraid of the same design mistakes being made in the south.

I am sure that amazing things will come from a refocusing of Staff attentions. I'm just leery of radical changes being made to Allanak, since Allanak seems to just "work."

Edit: I guess what I want to say is "Keep Allanak hard"?

I couldn't believe this was actually happening when my wife mentioned this thread. I really enjoyed playing in Tuluk in the past, but this change is very exciting. I have many reasons why I don't really play any more (most don't have anything to do with the game itself or its players and staff), but this change may very well address a major one. In my heyday I was able to play on-peak all the time, but I'm now living the American third shift life. Playing Arm with limited PC interaction is a nightmare for me. The probable consolidation of the playerbase is making me consider getting back into the game.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 07:43:08 PM
My apologizes if I sounded like I'm afraid of one staffer coming in and ruining it all (RATHUSTRA!!!111!!). That is not how I meant to be taken. To me there seems to be something fundamentally flawed with the design of Tuluk that no amount of doc changes could address. My feeling is that it was the fact it is so easy to survive up there at all social levels. I never felt at risk in the City, or even for my friends who ride out routinely.

Allanak is a more lethal setting. Character turn over is higher. This has the effect of stirring the pot more, keeping things from getting calcified and stagnant. Unless the environment of Vrun Driath is radically changed to make it more survivable (which Staff has emphatically said is not going to be the case), I'm not too afraid of the same design mistakes being made in the south.

I am sure that amazing things will come from a refocusing of Staff attentions. I'm just leery of radical changes being made to Allanak, since Allanak seems to just "work."

Edit: I guess what I want to say is "Keep Allanak hard"?

Honestly (and I've disagree with you about this before) I think surviability is the same north and south, codedly for both areas. I think the difference you noticed comes down to the players more so than the area. The type of player and roleplay that Tuluk tended to attract is the sort which lives longer than the sort of player who frequents Allanak.

When I played in Tuluk I was dying just as much as anywhere else. You, on the other-hand, probably would have had your current character for another 3 real-life years up there.

I do seem stupidly charmed at times.

Terrible idea.
Should of done something ICly instead of OOCly. If Tuluk experienced a massive Kryl attack and was partially destroyed or something of the like, this would be fair and cool and w/e.
But from an OOC standpoint, this is terrible. This will both cut off adventure into the Northern Grey by a large, large sum as people will refuse to travel all the way into the Grey from Luirs, and it will also render a lot of currently going on RP in Tuluk to be simply nullified. Unless there is a justified IC reason for this happening or you're remodeling Tuluk into something bigger and better and that this is only a temporary thing?
This is horrible.
I'm sorry. I love the game. I love Allanak and Red Storm and Luirs, and there is where I play the most. However, the fact that Tuluk will not be playable anymore simply doesn't make sense in a large sum. You're cutting off an entire area of the game that people put their time and effort into, with no justifiable reason.
In addition to this, Luirs becomes much less powerful as a whole. Red Storm becomes more powerful, as it becomes one of the largest food traders to the rest of the Known world.
Why would you make such a drastic change without officially consulting everyone? I know you've provided a reason, but that honestly does not cut it. This is a huge choice that effects -everything- in the entire game.

Quote from: AdamBlue on April 13, 2015, 07:49:43 PM
Terrible idea.
Should of done something ICly instead of OOCly.

They are doing something ICly. I suggest going back through and reading the staffs replys in this thread.

QuoteIf Tuluk experienced a massive Kryl attack and was partially destroyed or something of the like, this would be fair and cool and w/e.
But from an OOC standpoint, this is terrible. This will both cut off adventure into the Northern Grey by a large, large sum as people will refuse to travel all the way into the Grey from Luirs, and it will also render a lot of currently going on RP in Tuluk to be simply nullified. Unless there is a justified IC reason for this happening or you're remodeling Tuluk into something bigger and better and that this is only a temporary thing?
This is horrible.

I'd say there's plenty of resource reasons for traveling to the north.

Quote
I'm sorry. I love the game. I love Allanak and Red Storm and Luirs, and there is where I play the most. However, the fact that Tuluk will not be playable anymore simply doesn't make sense in a large sum. You're cutting off an entire area of the game that people put their time and effort into, with no justifiable reason.

The reason is consolidation, and I think it's a very good reason.

Quote
In addition to this, Luirs becomes much less powerful as a whole. Red Storm becomes more powerful, as it becomes one of the largest food traders to the rest of the Known world.
Why would you make such a drastic change without officially consulting everyone? I know you've provided a reason, but that honestly does not cut it. This is a huge choice that effects -everything- in the entire game.

Because when it comes down to it "everyone" doesn't get to make the decision, staff do. We have had multiple discussions on the topic of nixing Tuluk, Allanak, whatever. I'm sure staff consulted those threads to get a general idea of the player-bases acceptance of the idea. At the end of the day how much discussion do you expect to have?

they've addressed everything in that post multiple times

Everyone = half would think its a terrible idea and the other half would think its a great idea. Welcome to the GeeDeeBee.

We do feel we have justifiable reasoning for this decision (understandably, you might disagree with it).   I don't think we can provide any answers that will satisfy you, at least if that is what you think.  It's understandable to be frustrated about it--feel free to vent.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 13, 2015, 07:55:49 PM

Quote from: AdamBlue on April 13, 2015, 07:49:43 PM
Terrible idea.
Should of done something ICly instead of OOCly.

They are doing something ICly. I suggest going back through and reading the staffs replys in this thread.

QuoteIf Tuluk experienced a massive Kryl attack and was partially destroyed or something of the like, this would be fair and cool and w/e.
But from an OOC standpoint, this is terrible. This will both cut off adventure into the Northern Grey by a large, large sum as people will refuse to travel all the way into the Grey from Luirs, and it will also render a lot of currently going on RP in Tuluk to be simply nullified. Unless there is a justified IC reason for this happening or you're remodeling Tuluk into something bigger and better and that this is only a temporary thing?
This is horrible.

I'd say there's plenty of resource reasons for traveling to the north.

Quote
I'm sorry. I love the game. I love Allanak and Red Storm and Luirs, and there is where I play the most. However, the fact that Tuluk will not be playable anymore simply doesn't make sense in a large sum. You're cutting off an entire area of the game that people put their time and effort into, with no justifiable reason.

The reason is consolidation, and I think it's a very good reason.

Quote
In addition to this, Luirs becomes much less powerful as a whole. Red Storm becomes more powerful, as it becomes one of the largest food traders to the rest of the Known world.
Why would you make such a drastic change without officially consulting everyone? I know you've provided a reason, but that honestly does not cut it. This is a huge choice that effects -everything- in the entire game.

Because when it comes down to it "everyone" doesn't get to make the decision, staff do. We have had multiple discussions on the topic of nixing Tuluk, Allanak, whatever. I'm sure staff consulted those threads to get a general idea of the player-bases acceptance of the idea. At the end of the day how much discussion do you expect to have?

"What does this mean for the various clans that are based northward? Do they receive invisible income from the income they're missing due to the removal of Tuluk?"
"What happens to those with money invested in certain northern projects?"
"Where will all the northern PC's be forced to go once it is closed?"
"What happens to all of the items that are in Tuluk, such as storage?"
"For people wanting to go home to Tuluk, would they need to retire?"
"Are there any parts of Tuluk that will be available after the closure?"
"What happens to 'Old Tuluk'?"

Dozens of other questions that should be answered immediately, or clarified if they've already been answered.

It would be nice to see some of Staff's responses here added to the FAQ post. I'm pretty sure all of your questions have been answered somewhere in here already, AdmaBlue (Except  the one regarding 'Old Tuluk.' That's new to me)

Wasn't Old Tuluk "removed" during the shrink?

A big part of me says "it's about time," but that's bias on my part, since I've never really enjoyed playing in Tuluk no matter how many times I've tried.

A small part of me will miss having a non-virtual city to complain about :)

And the rest of me is looking forward to seeing what new outposts and expansions of existing areas and random what-nots we're in for, after Tuluk ceases to be open for play.

Quote from: AdamBlue on April 13, 2015, 08:03:10 PM
Dozens of other questions that should be answered immediately, or clarified if they've already been answered.

I just read this as: "Dozens of question that, if already answered, I want an answer for again, specifically addressing me so I don't have to go look for them."

Be nice. I'd probably be just as freaked out if I woke up and found a 10 page thread about Allanak being closed for Tuluk play.

Quote from: Barsook on April 13, 2015, 08:06:55 PM
Wasn't Old Tuluk "removed" during the shrink?

There's "The Crater" and a few roads that pass through what I presume to be Old Tuluk, but there doesn't seem to be much there, yeah.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 13, 2015, 08:10:46 PM

Quote from: AdamBlue on April 13, 2015, 08:03:10 PM
Dozens of other questions that should be answered immediately, or clarified if they've already been answered.

I just read this as: "Dozens of question that, if already answered, I want an answer for again, specifically addressing me so I don't have to go look for them."

Man, why are you trying to fight me? Stop.

AdamBlue:  Many of these were answered in the announcement itself as well as the FAQ type post.  I'll go over those and the new ones.

Quote"What does this mean for the various clans that are based northward? Do they receive invisible income from the income they're missing due to the removal of Tuluk?"

Tuluk will still exist as an IC entity.  So they still make money. 

Quote"What happens to those with money invested in certain northern projects?"

Those with money invested in certain northern projects...I am not sure what is meant by this.  If it is a PC project in Tuluk, then unfortunately it will need to be emphasized elsewhere as there will be no PCs playing in Tuluk. 

Quote"Where will all the northern PC's be forced to go once it is closed?"

Northern PCs that are templars or nobles must store by the deadline.  If you are not a noble or templar or some otherwise sponsored role that could not leave, and happen to log into Tuluk after the deadline, we'll have code to deposit you outside of the city. 

Quote"What happens to all of the items that are in Tuluk, such as storage?"

The items that are in Tuluk will be in Tuluk; I am also not sure what is meant by this question so you might have to elaborate. 

Quote"For people wanting to go home to Tuluk, would they need to retire?"

If you want to go home to Tuluk as a Tuluki PC, you can do so virtually as many times as you want to, but you'd need to understand that the city is codedly closed to PC play.

Quote"Are there any parts of Tuluk that will be available after the closure?"

At this time no parts of Tuluk will be open to PC play, we are closing it to PC play after the deadline. 

Quote"What happens to 'Old Tuluk'?"

I am also not sure what you mean by 'Old Tuluk.'

QuoteDozens of other questions that should be answered immediately, or clarified if they've already been answered.

To answer them I suppose you would need to ask them, we'll do our best to answer quickly though maybe not immediately.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 08:05:56 PM
It would be nice to see some of Staff's responses here added to the FAQ post. I'm pretty sure all of your questions have been answered somewhere in here already, AdmaBlue (Except  the one regarding 'Old Tuluk.' That's new to me)

I thought the same, but I'm at work and I'll get in trouble if I take too much time out to do that. Maybe when I get home.

RGS is a gdb deity. He memorises every single post on these boards. When you go out and ask a dozen questions that have already been answered his first reaction isn't 'this person is stressed,' it's instead to mentally think of the proper posts and now be secure in his knowledge that the board is not littered with technically unnecessary posts.

We can only add so much to the post (20k characters) but I can add some, sure.  So as to not clutter the thread here do we want a player collaboration thread to help consolidate so I can put them in?

Let's.

I don't see why those who made this decision didn't send hints to Tuluki players. I understand keeping the flow of things but what about lost time? Wasted efforts? By both players (and especially) northern staff? Certainly logical and interesting solutions could have also been explored if a constructive dialogue was opened.

It's also -very- jarring in general. An HRPT would catch a lot of flak but OK. This is Arm. That stuff happens yet theirs a story to it. Their -is- logic... But to just close up shop and offer the 'expat' option (i mean given Allanaki culture, history, general RP, does anyone in staff land expect a Tuluki Expat to have -any- success or survivability in Allank?). It's just so... For a game where Roleplay and keeping things logical and respectful to the gameworld...

Roleplay wise this is he most contrived thing I've ever seen in Arm. At least Kanks got a plague.

I don't know how we could answer that any differently than we've answered it already, but I hear you, it sucks.

I heard that the al Seik are dying and the Arabeti will bang anyone, maybe they'll take us in?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 07:43:08 PM
My apologizes if I sounded like I'm afraid of one staffer coming in and ruining it all (RATHUSTRA!!!111!!). That is not how I meant to be taken. To me there seems to be something fundamentally flawed with the design of Tuluk that no amount of doc changes could address. My feeling is that it was the fact it is so easy to survive up there at all social levels. I never felt at risk in the City, or even for my friends who ride out routinely.

Allanak is a more lethal setting. Character turn over is higher. This has the effect of stirring the pot more, keeping things from getting calcified and stagnant. Unless the environment of Vrun Driath is radically changed to make it more survivable (which Staff has emphatically said is not going to be the case), I'm not too afraid of the same design mistakes being made in the south.

I am sure that amazing things will come from a refocusing of Staff attentions. I'm just leery of radical changes being made to Allanak, since Allanak seems to just "work."

Edit: I guess what I want to say is "Keep Allanak hard"?

As far as I see it--having played in both Allanak and Tuluk extensively, in politically-focused and combat-focused roles--there is nothing "wrong" with Tuluk (other than the attitudes of some players about it) other than the fact that we have approximately 50 fewer players on a weekly basis than we did in 2006.

In a real sense, Allanak is easier for players (who are mostly, when they start out, young American men) to understand. It's a town full of cowboys and the Zalanthan equivalent of first-person-shooter PCs. Tuluk is harder politically and socially. Allanak "works" because it's basically Tea-Party America on steroids. Note that I'm not criticizing what Allanak is: I'm just saying that it's easier because we collectively understand the model.

No radical changes are planned for Allanak. We have a crapton of documentation to flesh out and some tweaks to make to things that are dumb or don't work well, but they are not radical changes.

I don't think anyone interpreted you as being afraid of certain staffers. We were just illuminating how staff works, and how we adjust to different areas.

Quote from: Dakota on April 13, 2015, 08:20:58 PM
I don't see why those who made this decision didn't send hints to Tuluki players. I understand keeping the flow of things but what about lost time? Wasted efforts? By both players (and especially) northern staff? Certainly logical and interesting solutions could have also been explored if a constructive dialogue was opened.

It's also -very- jarring in general. An HRPT would catch a lot of flak but OK. This is Arm. That stuff happens yet theirs a story to it. Their -is- logic... But to just close up shop and offer the 'expat' option (i mean given Allanaki culture, history, general RP, does anyone in staff land expect a Tuluki Expat to have -any- success or survivability in Allank?). It's just so... For a game where Roleplay and keeping things logical and respectful to the gameworld...

Roleplay wise this is he most contrived thing I've ever seen in Arm. At least Kanks got a plague.

Would you rather Tuluk be so destroyed IC that there was nothing left so that there would be no feasible IC way to have it back if the OOC change doesn't work on an OOC level? I get that it sucks to some people, but the entire reason there's not a big IC thing wiping it out in game is, from my understanding of the original post, because they don't know that Tuluk should be gone forever.

For what it's worth, Dakota, a lot of people thought the kank plague plot was really stupid and contrived. Because it wasn't a "real plot" and it impacted some clans much harder than others and it "only happened to solve an OOC issue."

Ditto with the HRPT that closed the Tan Muark. Ditto with the HRPT that closed House Uaptal. Ditto with the plotlines that closed the Silt Winds, Dune Stalkers, and other clans.

When there is a plot associated with a big change in the game world, if people don't like the change, they will find ways to be upset with the plot or will say that it wasn't a "real plot" and only occurred so some OOC aspect of the game could be changed/fixed.

No plot = why wasn't there at least a plot? Plot = this plot was stupid and the ending was railroaded and not a real plot.

And that's fair enough, really. People like plots where their PC has a chance to affect the outcome. People don't tend to like plots when the outcome is predetermined.

It's one of those situations where there just isn't a perfect solution, imo.

Thanks Talia. That's an interesting take on Allanak; I've heard something similar said about Tuluk, that it's like modern American culture in terms of shallowness, presentation and backbiting.

Hey, what are staff going to play as their PC-alternate now that all Staff are hovering around Allanak?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 08:31:34 PM
Thanks Talia. That's an interesting take on Allanak; I've heard something similar said about Tuluk, that it's like modern American culture in terms of shallowness, presentation and backbiting.

Hey, what are staff going to play as their PC-alternate now that all Staff are hovering around Allanak?

Dragons.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 08:31:34 PM
Thanks Talia. That's an interesting take on Allanak; I've heard something similar said about Tuluk, that it's like modern American culture in terms of shallowness, presentation and backbiting.

Hey, what are staff going to play as their PC-alternate now that all Staff are hovering around Allanak?

Oh Adhira's idea is way better than mine.  I was going to say cockroaches.  But yeah, dragons!

To me, the tension and conflict between the two city states has been better than in the past, which is what I'm going to miss most about the change. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to see what Staff will accomplish elsewhere with re-directed time and resources.

Allow me to be more specific.
Let's say Amos McAmoson has a dozen mounts in Tuluk. Realistically, why would he be dragging twelve inix, gwoshi, ect southward? Or would the mounts just be reimbursed into a ticket somewhere else?
What happens to all of the operations of the Byn in the north, who have a compound within the city, with all of the storage and treasures they collected within their storerooms that would take tons and tons of trips back and forth to bring southwards? What about the contracts they would take, and have taken?
What about people with northern apartments? What happens to all of their nice things? Are they refunded the money they put into their homes?
All the far cheaper resources in the north, are those not available to buy anymore to bring southward for trade? For example, you can buy stuff in Tuluk for ten times cheaper then in Allanak. Are those desirable prices simply removed from play entirely, which significantly hampers traders and merchants?
Is there going to be any where to replace 'Tuluk' as a passage into the Grey Forest, A K A a place where you can sit down and rest your mounts and eat something before heading into the Grey? Or is heading into the Grey directly from Luirs the new passage, which is a far greater, slightly more perilous journey the norm?
Does this mean that the prices of all of the things in the Grey, including wood, will go up significantly, as Tuluk will be unable to purchase from?
Does the road end at Tuluk? Will the gates just remain closed, with all of the guards standing outside, unable to enter?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 08:31:34 PM
Hey, what are staff going to play as their PC-alternate now that all Staff are hovering around Allanak?

Southlands staff can play in the GMHs, desert elves, Byn, other indies, Red Storm, or Labyrinth and still be playing "away" from their own clan group. At this moment, I don't personally have time to play a PC, which gives me the sads. But maybe soon. After I kill everyone in Allanak, thus reducing my workload, right?

We are willing to work with players that have issues like that, per the announcement/FAQ, so Amos would need to put in a request to discuss with staff.

Byn -- this is a virtual closure of Tuluk.  Tuluk still exists IC.  Clan staff will handle this.
Northern apartments -- this is a virtual closure.  Tuluk still exists IC.  You can't have an apartment in a place you can't enter.  Put in a request if you need more details.
Resources -- we aren't closing the North, just Tuluk, and just for PC play.  We've also mentioned an outpost type thingy here.
Place to rest -- mentioned previously as well, yes, see above about outpost thingy.
Prices -- outpost.
Road -- this is a virtual closure of Tuluk.  Tuluk still exists IC.  You will be unable to enter Tuluk.

Quote from: Talia on April 13, 2015, 08:42:46 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 13, 2015, 08:31:34 PM
Hey, what are staff going to play as their PC-alternate now that all Staff are hovering around Allanak?

Southlands staff can play in the GMHs, desert elves, Byn, other indies, Red Storm, or Labyrinth and still be playing "away" from their own clan group. At this moment, I don't personally have time to play a PC, which gives me the sads. But maybe soon. After I kill everyone in Allanak, thus reducing my workload, right?

Now we wait for the next announcement.
"Nak has been closed to further push for tribal play"

Quote from: Fathi on April 13, 2015, 08:29:32 PM
For what it's worth, Dakota, a lot of people thought the kank plague plot was really stupid and contrived. Because it wasn't a "real plot" and it impacted some clans much harder than others and it "only happened to solve an OOC issue."

Ditto with... a lot of other plots (my edit)

It's one of those situations where there just isn't a perfect solution, imo.

You're right. Their would be no perfect solution. But as it's an RPI mud with a loooong history I suppose my disappointment stems expecting something more than just... Well... The first post of this thread.

And this isn't a clan or a House. It's the other end of the scale to the conflict that drives Arm's ever evolving tale of corruption, betrayal and murder. That's the other (most important) issue here. Suddenly one side of the War and Conflict becomes a NPC / vNPC populated mirage of Roleplay Docs and locked down Areas.

edit: Again, I do think it opens up the chance for the staff that closed Tuluk to come up with sometihng interesting and dynamic to carry the Torch for the Antagonist to Allanak (gith would be the easiest and probably the most accepted solution... Lets not derail though).

I'm off to bed.

Thank you. About time.

Interested to see what the future holds.

Note to Tuluki Players and those who put hard work into building that society: I'm not hating on you. I just never felt that post-dragon-smash Tuluk really fit well into the world and that for a long time (prior than 2006) we would do better with one city to focus PC play. FWIW: Not much of a fan of ISO clans for the same reason. Now if we can just infuse some of that art and culture into Allanak (Allanaki-style, of course) so that it's not just a shadow of what it could be, that would be awesome!  

At least you won't be playing a bard, Talia

All the effort that went into Tuluk being directed to Allanak, on top of Allanak's current staff already... I'm expecting great things. Maybe we can finally fix those things that have plagued Allanak in the past, like an actually working blackmarket/economy/House guards/House politics, and the list continues. I'm pumped!

As an aside, how should our characters act about the impending closure of Tuluk? Is it alright as players to allow our characters to visit Tuluk as a 'last walk down memory lane', or do staff expect us to play everything off (for our characters) as if the Tuluk closure was never going to happen?

Should builder apps be revised given this change?  ;)

Quote from: Semper on April 13, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
All the effort that went into Tuluk being directed to Allanak, on top of Allanak's current staff already... I'm expecting great things. Maybe we can finally fix those things that have plagued Allanak in the past, like an actually working blackmarket/economy/House guards/House politics, and the list continues. I'm pumped!

As an aside, how should our characters act about the impending closure of Tuluk? Is it alright as players to allow our characters to visit Tuluk as a 'last walk down memory lane', or do staff expect us to play everything off (for our characters) as if the Tuluk closure was never going to happen?

Your PC knows nothing about Tuluk "closing" so roleplaying a last trip down memory lane doesn't make much sense.  Tuluk will still exist, you just won't be able to codedly go inside, and the Tuluk-only clans will be completely virtual, just like House Nenyuk or House Sath.

In the coming days, things will happen that your PC may or may not hear about - probably will hear about if they live in Tuluk.  Your PC may choose to react to those events.

EDIT:  Maybe I misunderstood your question.  If you want to invent a reason to go into Tuluk, I think that's probably fine, as long as it makes sense for your PC to be there.  Ergo, if you are playing in the AoD or a noble in Fale, maybe not so much.  ;-)

Quote from: Talia on April 13, 2015, 05:47:06 PM
I've been super-busy at work and so haven't had a chance to reply here--but as mentioned, sponsored roles within Allanak will be increased in number at some point. Clan caps will be revisited. I can't answer about noble house guard role position stuff because, to be honest, we still need to make sure that job roles in clans are not boring and pointless. It's something I'm thinking about and will look at with my team, but don't expect an answer on that immediately. (There is so much other stuff that is higher-priority right now.)

Who cares if it's boring and pointless? Open it up. If players want to do it, players will do it.

So is this encouraging or discouraging operation grand theft sunking: Kill the sunking?

Quote from: Saellyn on April 13, 2015, 09:06:37 PM
Who cares if it's boring and pointless? Open it up. If players want to do it, players will do it.

I'm not interested in providing roles to the playerbase which are boring and pointless. That's just not something I see myself ever signing off on.

Quote from: whitt on April 13, 2015, 09:05:20 PM
Should builder apps be revised given this change?  ;)

No?

I do think this was a hard decision for staff but the right one.

I think Staff has the games better interests at heart here. I am sure when the city is reopened it will be a fun new place and until then we can fill up more of the tribes and other interesting places.

Roles are boring and pointless if players make them boring and pointless.

Quote from: whitt on April 13, 2015, 09:05:20 PM
Should builder apps be revised given this change?  ;)

Don't cry just because you will never be able to see a noble smoking the pipe you wrote. ;)

Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 13, 2015, 09:30:48 PM

Quote from: whitt on April 13, 2015, 09:05:20 PM
Should builder apps be revised given this change?  ;)

Don't cry just because you will never be able to see a noble smoking the pipe you wrote. ;)

Oh. No, the application questions were not supposed to be for real items, they were to give us an idea of whether you can write in the style of various places. Cultural understanding and so forth.

I wasn't aware ARM's playerbase was declining so rapidly to warrant something like this, but... I guess it explains why all the d-elves and gypsies are coming back.

Quote from: Wolfsong on April 13, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
I wasn't aware ARM's playerbase was declining so rapidly to warrant something like this, but... I guess it explains why all the d-elves and gypsies are coming back.

Gypsies are coming back?
Til.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 09:57:33 PM

Quote from: Wolfsong on April 13, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
I wasn't aware ARM's playerbase was declining so rapidly to warrant something like this, but... I guess it explains why all the d-elves and gypsies are coming back.

Gypsies are coming back?
Til.

;)

Quote from: Wolfsong on April 13, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
I wasn't aware ARM's playerbase was declining so rapidly to warrant something like this, but... I guess it explains why all the d-elves and gypsies are coming back.

It's not declining. It dropped significantly after the ARM 2.0 announcement in 2006, and recovered somewhat by 2008-2009. We've been at a very steady number since then, it's just not as high as it was in 2006. Since Allanak generally remains at a certain number of players, the effect of having fewer players overall is that Tuluk has big swings up and down. However, it requires just as much staff (perhaps more staff) as Allanak does.

I dnt thnk u guyz undurstahnd how exsitid I am fur ths.

(https://gbatemp.net/attachments/now-this-i-can-fap-to-jpg.3673/)

So long, Tuluk. I won't miss you even a little bit.

Man, just came back, and some serious shit went down. I only played in Tuluk a bit, but I understand its closing. Even support it. Shadow Artists were a cool concept into you realized how little sense the lore made (in a totalitarian society of plotting nobles and templars, I'm expected to simply accept that templars are the perfect facilitators of organized crime, even against themselves?). I'm looking forward to making a character in an in-game faction now. Hopefully it won't be dead.

While I've always been more of a Naki than a Tuluki sort of player, this is still hard to take. I've played this game since 1993 and Tuluk has always been there in some form or another to play in. I will indeed miss it.

But I have faith in the staff. I get that not everyone agrees with their decisions, but having been on staff for a fair number of years I KNOW that they all have the best interest of the game at heart. All the staff started as players and joined staff because they LOVE the game.  I am sure all of them would say that they wish the player & staff numbers were high enough to continue to support Tuluk and even all the outposts, but alas...it just simply isn't possible anymore.

So let's see how this experiment goes. I see some fun times ahead, and undoubtably some trying ones as things are tweaked to support this new design of playability. I like the idea of a compressed staff presence. Big brother will more than likely be watching you more, folks.

My biggest concern is how will this effect PC economy. There will be more people competing for the same resources in Allanak. There is already a post reboot mad-dash for the bazaar to sell off those high value items that everyone seems to have 50 of in their apartment. Merchants used to be able to travel to Tuluk and sell off ivory or obsidian for a decent profit to cover the risk of the trip. How will that be affected? Also, with players more compact, it will make remaining a low-key character much harder. Allanaki merchants are often very low on coin with the current player base. This could make it even worse.

I think the issue of northern objects being unavailable could easily be tackled by a new Builder role going through the northern items and turning them into craftables. Then if you get the northern materials, you could still get the items made ICly by PC crafters. I'm all for that! I would much rather order from a PC!

And staff, one thing that slipped through the cracks back when Tuluk was re-written a number of years ago was special traveling abilities of certain types of magickers, which made them able to suddenly appear in a deserted unlinked city. Don't forget to address those. :)

As always, thanks for the hard work you all do while we get to sit back and play.

I came here for the impotent tears of furious rage.

I leave disappointed.

Very excited by this decision, enough to start playing again.

Kudos to staff for making a difficult call. I think it's the right one.

Regardless of whether you feel Allanak or Tuluk is the more interesting city, I think any city with 2x the players will be more fun than having the pbase split in half.

Seconding the notion of this being a potential start to a golden age of Armageddon.

This change is fascinating. I'm sure it was a hard choice to make, but I applaud the staff for making it. Nice job, guys.

My two cents....

I'm surprised that there seems to be very little saddness over Tuluk closing and that the general consensus seems to be "good riddance". I have always been much more drawn to Tuluk's culture (which never seemed awkward to me until some of the more recent changes were implemented). I appreciated that instead of being dark and brooding on the surface and underneath (like Allanak), Tuluk was brightly colored and sunshiny with its dark parts tucked neatly away where most couldn't see them. I have always liked Tuluk better than Allanak (plus as someone who has played more than one ranger, this is going to make playing indies that much harder since Tuluk has always had more tame game surrounding it to hunt).

I understand the decision, it seems like it was well thought out, but I for one am quite bummed about it. I did not like some of the more recent changes that had taken place in Tuluk (seemed like it was trying to be shaped into New Allanak or something....) but Tuluk of 3 RL years ago....oh man,...I had soooo much fun. My longest lived character ever was Tuluki militia and had some really fun plots.

I am very saddened that my favorite place to play is now closed. :(

The surroundings are still open. The city's gates are closed.

Yes, but the conveniently located city to trade in is going to be closed. :(

Tuluk get rekt.

Quote from: skeetdaddle on April 14, 2015, 01:17:21 AM
Yes, but the conveniently located city to trade in is going to be closed. :(

TL;DR the thread...

It looks like they are going to open up a trading outpost or something in the North, so the 'trade' will still be there in some aspect. A place to go to in the North that just isn't Tuluk.

Consolidating the player base will be good for off-peakers, I think.

Observation made on Teamspeak just now:

The playerbase was more enraged by taking rape out of the game than closing Tuluk.

Think about it.

Cause it was something you dirty sob's did more in Allanak than Tuluk, and we all know Allanaki whine more than Tuluki, hence the bigger reaction to rape being removed :D

Sorry, it happened more in Tuluk than Allanak.

I'm not surprised the rape supporters were angry while the Tuluk supporters are less than vocal about thier dissent. No doubt shadow artists are being contracted.

QuoteI've been dying to see a more consolidated player population for quite some time.

That always amuses me. The playerbase will not consolidate, as you close options generally players either leave or simply spread out other directions

I am not a Tuluk fanboy by any means...but I think that closing it is an odd thing. I could understand just about anything else getting closed to consolidate staff.

In the beginning of this game it was Tuluk and Allanak...with a barely there place known as Redstorm.


Hell, I'd close every GMH and noble house before I would close a citystate like that.

Please may we have our party on the 24th, uninterrupted by a plague of rats?

I dunno.  The north as an 'out there' place is pretty sweet.  The favorite phase of the north for me was the rebellion, more because of how 'wild' the north was than anything else.  All the badasses were in the north, because it was untamed.

I'm thinking we'll see more of that wild westness there, with the major city closed, but with many people preferring to get their resources there.  It -could- be pretty neat.

Uhhhhh.....

:'(

All right. I have had a day to think and an hour to read the thread. I will miss the yin and yang. I will miss the chance to be a foreigner in the wrong place at the wrong time,and the disasters I have seen happen around this. (virtually being born in Tuluk is not the same.)
If I miss Tuluk too much, I can read over old logs and pretend.
I am sad for those who have to store their PCs. Thank you for some wonderful characters.
My favorite places in this game are around Tuluk. If I have to sit at a bar (that's not the Pub), I would chose the Gaj.

Still sad, not mad.

Slowly reading through this thread...and I come across...

QuoteWe expect that Luir's will become a much more interesting place to play in. We're looking at ways to help facilitate that.

The only possible way I could see that coming about is if Kurac no longer controlled it....and like that will happen.

Also, "PC's will have reason to leave Tuluk." Now, I am not asking what that might be, but I was wondering...what about the inks they have?

Leaving Tuluk is not really viable if the PC is still to be saddled with these...will those that want it be able to have them removed, or covered, with say different tats?

Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2015, 03:38:33 AM
Hell, I'd close every GMH and noble house before I would close a citystate like that.

This.

Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2015, 05:11:17 AM
Also, "PC's will have reason to leave Tuluk." Now, I am not asking what that might be, but I was wondering...what about the inks they have?

Leaving Tuluk is not really viable if the PC is still to be saddled with these...will those that want it be able to have them removed, or covered, with say different tats?

While this has been addressed re: Tuluki Expats being an option to play, you'd have to effectively retcon the general behavior towards Tuluki's in Allanak to give them a chance, b/c otherwise they're just doomed if you expect to do anything remotely visible, correct?  

Even in the Rinth where Northern Human or Northern elf would get (and have gotten) whacked in a short time after arriving...  Sure they're expections but Arm isn't exactly a place where you play the exceptions to the rule... In fact in many regards it's frowned up.  So why manufacture a situation that forces it?

Or will these Tuluki Expats get a pass, which in a way a lose situation for Allanaki Roleplay in general.  I'd like to know since theirs a portion of the playerbase that were encouraged to play in Tuluk and now are given a pat on the back and a 2 week notice to sort things out...

Edit: Also thinking of the -PRACTICAL- ramifications for what this means to Magick and Magickers in Arm since they are losing the biggest Spectrum of their "Checks and Balances".  Yes, sure it's to be expected it will be Roleplayed... But again, that's a bit of a reach. Roleplaying fear of Magick / hate of Magick is a lot easier (and more widespread) when it's reinforced by an active city-state that hates / destroys that stuff...

If I chop my hands off... can I come too.

You don't have to run to Allanak with your Tuluki ex-pat. Luir's and Red Storm are going to be made better, guys. Have faith.

Edit: Fingers crossed.

Quote from: racurtne on April 14, 2015, 07:27:01 AM
You don't have to run to Allanak with your Tuluki ex-pat. Luir's and Red Storm are going to be made better, guys. Have faith.

Edit: Fingers crossed.

Part of the problem here is that those alternate options should be available and evolved for players to play in, rather than the current: 'we're closing up shop. here's your two weeks. store or go. good luck.'

I almost wish their was longer time frame for this closing. 3 months? To let things flow naturally, get built and established and let this be an evolution of progression for both players -and- staff.

This is a good call. Props for seeing it through.

Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2015, 03:38:33 AM

I am not a Tuluk fanboy by any means...but I think that closing it is an odd thing. I could understand just about anything else getting closed to consolidate staff.

In the beginning of this game it was Tuluk and Allanak...with a barely there place known as Redstorm.

The argument we make is that that was the problem:  in the beginning of this game it was Tuluk and Allanak.  There was no "in the beginning of the game, the game started out with a city-state to play in, with distant threats that were powerful in their own backyards, but nothing that was (by itself) the size of or power of a city-state...and then later on we had Tuluk."  Because Tuluk and Allanak were there at the beginning, both needed to stay open, both needed to be staffed, both needed to be played.  Because the two city-states exist, there must be a larger war on a regular basis (even though this has rarely been the case over the years per the chronology page).  Because the two city-states exist, effort expended on one is noticed by the other's players (many a time there were complaints that Allanak got no attention and vice versa).

We are no longer sticking by that paradigm solely because "it has always been a part of the game" or "we have always done it that way."  We are going to try something new.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 14, 2015, 04:35:33 AM
I dunno.  The north as an 'out there' place is pretty sweet.  The favorite phase of the north for me was the rebellion, more because of how 'wild' the north was than anything else.  All the badasses were in the north, because it was untamed.

I'm thinking we'll see more of that wild westness there, with the major city closed, but with many people preferring to get their resources there.  It -could- be pretty neat.

It could be pretty neat.

Quote
Edit: Also thinking of the -PRACTICAL- ramifications for what this means to Magick and Magickers in Arm since they are losing the biggest Spectrum of their "Checks and Balances".  Yes, sure it's to be expected it will be Roleplayed... But again, that's a bit of a reach. Roleplaying fear of Magick / hate of Magick is a lot easier (and more widespread) when it's reinforced by an active city-state that hates / destroys that stuff...

The only real check/balance that Tuluk had to offer was its defense against magickers inside the city.   All I can say is that we are aware of the perceived strength of a PC presence that might have deterred magickers from just rooting about in the North before and we'll keep an eye on it.

Prediction: We've had rain in the North, next will come snow for the first time in thousands of years and then when the frost grips the forest the Walkers will come.

(http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/frozen-winter-is-coming.jpeg)

Quote from: Dakota on April 14, 2015, 07:38:16 AM

Quote from: racurtne on April 14, 2015, 07:27:01 AM
You don't have to run to Allanak with your Tuluki ex-pat. Luir's and Red Storm are going to be made better, guys. Have faith.

Edit: Fingers crossed.

Part of the problem here is that those alternate options should be available and evolved for players to play in, rather than the current: 'we're closing up shop. here's your two weeks. store or go. good luck.'

I almost wish their was longer time frame for this closing. 3 months? To let things flow naturally, get built and established and let this be an evolution of progression for both players -and- staff.

That is something we considered and decided against, unfortunately (though at most we had considered a month).  We want to move on and do other things and start on the projects and plots we are already aiming for with other groups.  Three months to transition also potentially means three months of explaining to newbies that the place is closing in three months.  We understand that it sucks for players and that is why we want to do what we can (within reason) to ease that transition.

At the very least it would be nice now to see a bank in Luir's. And Red Storm.

Quote from: shpadoinkle on April 14, 2015, 09:46:32 AM
At the very least it would be nice now to see a bank in Luir's. And Red Storm.

There is a bank in Luir's.

I woke up and this was still happening.

I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST A DREAM.

Quote from: shpadoinkle on April 14, 2015, 09:46:32 AM
At the very least it would be nice now to see a bank in Luir's. And Red Storm.

I, for one, like that there is no bank in Red Storm - all them yummy uber-rich tailors are just so yummy.

Quote from: skeetdaddle on April 14, 2015, 12:47:47 AM
My two cents....

I'm surprised that there seems to be very little saddness over Tuluk closing and that the general consensus seems to be "good riddance".

It may have something to do with how we framed it.  Coming from staff, the first thing we say is that we are sad to have to make this decision, that we are attached to it, that it was tough to do, that everyone that contributed did a great job working on the place.  Rathustra put up a post from the Northern team with some of their thoughts.  As for players, many that I have seen posting here show support for the decision despite sadness or regret over the loss of Tuluk as a place to play.

Anyone expressing the opinion "good riddance" or something akin to that is probably trolling.  Feel free to report them and we'll be happy to moderate them.  I'll do a once-over of posts here and double check to see if anyone has crossed that line.  As we've said in the announcement:  it would be fair to say that one other negative (on players and staff) would be vocal detractors of player and staff efforts in this area.  It's one thing to express support of the decision (or express that you are not necessarily a fan of Tuluk/understanding of the decision overall/its impact/etc, expressing your disagreement as an adult).  It's another to just take a dump on the thread.  This isn't where those vocal detractors of staff and player efforts Tuluk get to come and gloat.  If they do that, this is where they get moderated; if they keep it up after moderation, this is where they get banned from the boards.  We gave fair warning.

And after review, there's really nothing that sticks out.  You guys are class acts.  We appreciate it.

Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2015, 03:38:33 AM
In the beginning of this game it was Tuluk and Allanak...with a barely there place known as Redstorm.

Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2015, 03:38:33 AM
In the beginning of this game it was Tuluk and Allanak

Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2015, 03:38:33 AM
In the beginning of this game

Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2015, 03:38:33 AM
In the beginning

go on....

I haven't seen much 'good riddance.' I've seen a lot thoughtful responses and a lot of willingness to think about this from staff's viewpoint.

I'll level with you guys: I have been extraordinarily impressed by the way the playerbase as a whole, and northern players specifically, have been handling this. It would be fair to say that there was a certain amount of a "batten down the hatches" feeling upstairs, but I have been frankly blown away by the dialogue here and in the request tool. With very few exceptions, y'all have been gracious, understanding, and willing to consider new opportunities and avenues for RP in the future. There's been some hurt, and some confusion, and even some anger, but the bottom line in nearly every single case has not been "screw you guys, I'm going home," but "okay, what's next for me?"

Maybe sometimes it's been "Screw you guys. What's next for me?" :)

I'm amazed and gratified, and just so goddamned proud of this community.

Northern Staff:  Since the clock is ticking and I have to fly RL to Paris and then Nashville in about 10 days and THEN will be away for about an RL week or 2... I'm writing this here to point out that a report has been answered and could use a reply in the next 24 hours or so...

:) Thank you.

Drifted back in recently, so I guess I'm glad I was here to see this happening instead of checking in and finding out Tuluk was out of play because that may've been a bit more jarring. I really hope the change makes a positive impact on the game world as a whole, but I'll still miss it.. I may have to dust off some Rider logs.

I have been trying to keep up with the threads and did searches for the last two days worth of posts but I still may have missed a reference somewhere.. from a logistical standpoint are there plans for more player-controllable real estate (apartments&warehouses specifically) to be added elsewhere in the game world to compensate for both the increased population density and the loss of what was available in Tuluk?Apartments in Luirs? *fingerscrossed*

Quote from: Dakota on April 14, 2015, 10:53:24 AM
Northern Staff:  Since the clock is ticking and I have to fly RL to Paris and then Nashville in about 10 days and THEN will be away for about an RL week or 2... I'm writing this here to point out that a report has been answered and could use a reply in the next 24 hours or so...

:) Thank you.

Northern staff as well as other assisting staffers will be handling all such requests prior to the closure deadline.  Thank you for your patience in advance.  While I know this is an exceptional circumstance in general for the playerbase and it will be tough to deal with...please do not use the GDB to browbeat staff into doing your request faster.  Thanks!

Quote from: Lancer on April 14, 2015, 11:03:04 AM
Drifted back in recently, so I guess I'm glad I was here to see this happening instead of checking in and finding out Tuluk was out of play because that may've been a bit more jarring. I really hope the change makes a positive impact on the game world as a whole, but I'll still miss it.. I may have to dust off some Rider logs.

I have been trying to keep up with the threads and did searches for the last two days worth of posts but I still may have missed a reference somewhere.. from a logistical standpoint are there plans for more player-controllable real estate (apartments&warehouses specifically) to be added elsewhere in the game world to compensate for both the increased population density and the loss of what was available in Tuluk?Apartments in Luirs? *fingerscrossed*

Yes.  With regards to warehouses, those will be increasing in number.  With regards to apartments, we'll have to see.  While we want there to be places for PCs to safely put their things, we also view housing (in terms of private apartments) as more of a luxury item than they currently are in the game.  Adhira and I will probably comment more on this later, so stay tuned.

Warehouses and apartments in the outposts, please! Red Storm, Luir's. Allanak is simply not an option for some most of us with our current northern characters. Hell, even Blackwing. It would be cool to have more of a non-elf presence in that place.
And still voting for a bank in Red Storm. If you're going to yank one of the main spots for playing away, please please make the remaining spots more playable for folks that can't/don't want to venture into Allanak.

Quote from: Nyr on April 14, 2015, 11:06:06 AM

Quote from: Lancer on April 14, 2015, 11:03:04 AM
Drifted back in recently, so I guess I'm glad I was here to see this happening instead of checking in and finding out Tuluk was out of play because that may've been a bit more jarring. I really hope the change makes a positive impact on the game world as a whole, but I'll still miss it.. I may have to dust off some Rider logs.

I have been trying to keep up with the threads and did searches for the last two days worth of posts but I still may have missed a reference somewhere.. from a logistical standpoint are there plans for more player-controllable real estate (apartments&warehouses specifically) to be added elsewhere in the game world to compensate for both the increased population density and the loss of what was available in Tuluk?Apartments in Luirs? *fingerscrossed*

Yes.  With regards to warehouses, those will be increasing in number.  With regards to apartments, we'll have to see.  While we want there to be places for PCs to safely put their things, we also view housing (in terms of private apartments) as more of a luxury item than they currently are in the game.  Adhira and I will probably comment more on this later, so stay tuned.

What about adding some squatter dens to Red Storm and the Southside of Nak instead of appartments? I don't think there are any in Red Storm, and certainly no convenient ones. Nak has one convenient one that I'm aware of, but it's not really described as a squatter's den. By contrast Luirs and the Rinth are filled with them. Even Tuluk had one specifically described squatter's den, though no one really used it as it was too far off the beaten path.

Feels kind of anti-thematic to Zalanthas to have all these people living in taverns.

For northern PCs, maybe some squatter dens or some other kind of grandfathered housing in the northern outpost that'd dry up as the remaining northern PCs fade will help ease the transition.

I think we're all curious how it will play out.  I don't know about leaving Tuluk open virtually, however.  We'll see, I guess.

I leave FOR ONE DAY and this happens? 

Honestly, there should be a longer timeframe to this, and I have reservations about the whole thing in general. Yet done is done, and we will just have to live with it now, like it or not.

You may have touched on some of these points above, so if there is repetition, forgive me. Yet I feel my two pence is worth putting out there.

For Player interaction:  The Akei  just opened and now they will be in a pretty remote location as far as the rest of the player base is concerned.

For playablility of the entire game world:

I think that instead of total closure, Tuluk should be available to players in the same way as the Blackwing outpost, some quit locations, a tavern, some shops and a stables. Basically Freils. The GMH should all be allowed to have warehouses and some work spaces in Tuluk, just like they do in Red Strom or Luirs now. It s silly and not at all realistic to think that all hunting and storage of materials should all be done from Luirs. This would require no extra staffing, or not much anyways.

For realistic plots:  In an OOC way, but one which will still really impact the game none the less, this move makes Kurac one of the most powerful Houses in the Known. Way over Salarr or Kadius. Improving Luirs and Red Strom both befit Kurac greatly, and since Tuluk will not be playable, Luirs will become the center for players wanting to play up north.  There is no real IC reason for this to happen, and it's kind of hard to make a plot up in two weeks.

I hope some attempt will be made to equalize things a bit.

Quote from: Norcal on April 14, 2015, 01:51:37 PM
For realistic plots:  In an OOC way, but one which will still really impact the game none the less, this move makes Kurac one of the most powerful Houses in the Known. Way over Salarr or Kadius. Improving Luirs and Red Strom both befit Kurac greatly, and since Tuluk will not be playable, Luirs will become the center for players wanting to play up north. 

(http://imageserver.moviepilot.com/palps-evil-finally-we-know-emperor-palpatine-s-real-name-jedi-vs-sith-who-are-the-real-good-guys-star-wars-episode-7-hopes.jpeg)

^ I agree this would be devious and a very cool plot. IC.  But this is not an IC thing. Sorry if I am being a stick in the mud. I am not angry. Just sad. I love Arm and hate to see any of it go anywhere.

To all the Tuluk players with current characters, you have my sympathy.

To the staff who had to agonize over this decision, you have my support.

In regards to the concerns about housing g and economy in the Known and South, due to the closing, I cannot help but think that this is a golden opportunity for the 'Rinth to..not so much shine, hellhole that it is, as have the potential to be so much more.  Its the place where the poor go for housing.  Where the down on their luck go to pawn their teeth for a swig of piss-water. Its gangland where you might live on a corner with a local gang that roughs you up and takes half your handful of 'sid on top of a weekly shake down, but they make good on seeing that no one messes with the stuff in your squat.

"My God, it will be glorious."
- Judge Dredd, Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

Edit: Typos.  Frigging phone.

It is a golden opportunity to start a new tribe.  ;)

RIP Tuluk.

I'm excited about the player density increase this will cause.

Quote from: solera on April 14, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
It is a golden opportunity to start a new tribe.  ;)

It is. Join mine!

One of the options I'd like to see for Luir's is the addition of apartments and warehouses. This would allow for indie orgs to really thrive there and create a lot more color. Granted, the indie orgs would have to not be competing with Kurac. Is such a thing possible, soon-to-be indie admin?

Quote from: Is Friday on April 14, 2015, 04:54:16 PM
One of the options I'd like to see for Luir's is the addition of apartments and warehouses. This would allow for indie orgs to really thrive there and create a lot more color. Granted, the indie orgs would have to not be competing with Kurac. Is such a thing possible, soon-to-be indie admin?

Luir's will need development.  In particular, the -money- flow through there has to be huge, for it to act as the 'main hub' for the huge swathe that is the northlands.  Really, everyone who 'lives' in the north should make their daily interactions in whatever small areas they can, but the 'trip to Luir's' should be a big deal...which doesn't work if the npc shopkeepers are constantly out of money.

Some apartments will be needed, though honestly...they're going to be warehouses in almost every case.  I don't think many people will -live- in Luir's, still, but I'd hope to see increased traffic of tribals, indies, hunters, and convicts.  So a bit of design that makes them suitable as both would be nice, without the need for the giant run around for a real warehouse (which should still be available there).

Basically, I am +1ing you and hoping Luir's is being noticed for what it should become.  Which is...what it's always been, but underplayed as such. :P

First Richie Benaud and now Tuluk dying? MY MONTH HAS BEEN SO AWFUL!!!

Quote from: Armaddict on April 14, 2015, 05:01:54 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on April 14, 2015, 04:54:16 PM
One of the options I'd like to see for Luir's is the addition of apartments and warehouses. This would allow for indie orgs to really thrive there and create a lot more color. Granted, the indie orgs would have to not be competing with Kurac. Is such a thing possible, soon-to-be indie admin?

Luir's will need development.  In particular, the -money- flow through there has to be huge, for it to act as the 'main hub' for the huge swathe that is the northlands.  Really, everyone who 'lives' in the north should make their daily interactions in whatever small areas they can, but the 'trip to Luir's' should be a big deal...which doesn't work if the npc shopkeepers are constantly out of money.

Some apartments will be needed, though honestly...they're going to be warehouses in almost every case.  I don't think many people will -live- in Luir's, still, but I'd hope to see increased traffic of tribals, indies, hunters, and convicts.  So a bit of design that makes them suitable as both would be nice, without the need for the giant run around for a real warehouse (which should still be available there).

Basically, I am +1ing you and hoping Luir's is being noticed for what it should become.  Which is...what it's always been, but underplayed as such. :P

Why would there suddenly be place for apartments when we've been told for years that it's an impossibility due to space limit and very IC reasons?

Why would Tuluk close after so many rl years? Because things change.

Quote from: Malken on April 14, 2015, 05:20:31 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on April 14, 2015, 05:01:54 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on April 14, 2015, 04:54:16 PM
One of the options I'd like to see for Luir's is the addition of apartments and warehouses. This would allow for indie orgs to really thrive there and create a lot more color. Granted, the indie orgs would have to not be competing with Kurac. Is such a thing possible, soon-to-be indie admin?

Luir's will need development.  In particular, the -money- flow through there has to be huge, for it to act as the 'main hub' for the huge swathe that is the northlands.  Really, everyone who 'lives' in the north should make their daily interactions in whatever small areas they can, but the 'trip to Luir's' should be a big deal...which doesn't work if the npc shopkeepers are constantly out of money.

Some apartments will be needed, though honestly...they're going to be warehouses in almost every case.  I don't think many people will -live- in Luir's, still, but I'd hope to see increased traffic of tribals, indies, hunters, and convicts.  So a bit of design that makes them suitable as both would be nice, without the need for the giant run around for a real warehouse (which should still be available there).

Basically, I am +1ing you and hoping Luir's is being noticed for what it should become.  Which is...what it's always been, but underplayed as such. :P

Why would there suddenly be place for apartments when we've been told for years that it's an impossibility due to space limit and very IC reasons?

They don't have to be traditional apartments. For example, they could be tiny shacks or rented tents in the bailey, or rooms above the Storm's End.

Inside a blue-and-green striped tent [N Leave]

The scruffy, dark-skinned man says, in tribal-accented sirihish:
     "Sure, I'll let you stay here. That'll be 500 a month."

Quote from: Is Friday on April 14, 2015, 04:54:16 PM
One of the options I'd like to see for Luir's is the addition of apartments and warehouses. This would allow for indie orgs to really thrive there and create a lot more color. Granted, the indie orgs would have to not be competing with Kurac. Is such a thing possible, soon-to-be indie admin?

I'd love to see expensive, small apartments/tents/hovels available in Luirs, and perhaps one or two merchant tents available for PC's to occupy in their trading bazaar by paying Kurac an annual fee.  Basically, equivalent to the "NPC merchant/hawker" level of the city indie org structure.  I don't think anything past that level makes sense for Luirs.

Quote from: Malken on April 14, 2015, 05:20:31 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on April 14, 2015, 05:01:54 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on April 14, 2015, 04:54:16 PM
One of the options I'd like to see for Luir's is the addition of apartments and warehouses. This would allow for indie orgs to really thrive there and create a lot more color. Granted, the indie orgs would have to not be competing with Kurac. Is such a thing possible, soon-to-be indie admin?

Luir's will need development.  In particular, the -money- flow through there has to be huge, for it to act as the 'main hub' for the huge swathe that is the northlands.  Really, everyone who 'lives' in the north should make their daily interactions in whatever small areas they can, but the 'trip to Luir's' should be a big deal...which doesn't work if the npc shopkeepers are constantly out of money.

Some apartments will be needed, though honestly...they're going to be warehouses in almost every case.  I don't think many people will -live- in Luir's, still, but I'd hope to see increased traffic of tribals, indies, hunters, and convicts.  So a bit of design that makes them suitable as both would be nice, without the need for the giant run around for a real warehouse (which should still be available there).

Basically, I am +1ing you and hoping Luir's is being noticed for what it should become.  Which is...what it's always been, but underplayed as such. :P

Why would there suddenly be place for apartments when we've been told for years that it's an impossibility due to space limit and very IC reasons?

For playability.

I can honestly say I've never understood the player-bases love and desire for apartments.

I can also honestly say I don't think we'll need more housing. Why? Storage and housing is a very OOC desire that I think people should start getting over. A large portion of the apartments being used already are empty and hardly ever visited. They're like places PC's only ever go to to fuck or to spar. Now, sure, a few people use them for storage. And those are usually the Indie merchant's/hunters who actually NEED storage. But those sorts are very few and far between, and are generally so long lived they never have trouble eventually finding an apartment.

Also a potential to conflict arises when you need an apartment and have to find a way to force someone who's already in there out.

Apartments should be the ultimate luxury in Zalanthas. The point where you know your character has stopped struggling to live and feed themselves. Instead they'd full of... God I don't even know how to describe it. You go into three different apartments; One will have 4 strips of chalton hide and some piles of bone lengths, another will have 3 empty shot-glasses in the shelves, and the third would be full of charred, burnt pieces of meat, and that's it... All you can wonder is "Why are these people paying for this?"

The solution to all the apartments being rented out are more murderous burglars. Murdglars.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2015, 06:16:24 PM
I can honestly say I've never understood the player-bases love and desire for apartments.

I can also honestly say I don't think we'll need more housing. Why? Storage and housing is a very OOC desire that I think people should start getting over. A large portion of the apartments being used already are empty and hardly ever visited. They're like places PC's only ever go to to fuck or to spar.

Players go there when they want privacy for any reason.  The two you listed, as well as private conversations, domestic role play, secret arcane rituals, murder, or just to set up a little chunk of Zalanthas that your character can call home.  There's absolutely no reason to prevent players from having this.  It isn't a luxury to have a hovel your character sleeps in every night.  Shelter is generally considered a basic human need.  

Quote from: wizturbo on April 14, 2015, 06:27:45 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2015, 06:16:24 PM
I can honestly say I've never understood the player-bases love and desire for apartments.

I can also honestly say I don't think we'll need more housing. Why? Storage and housing is a very OOC desire that I think people should start getting over. A large portion of the apartments being used already are empty and hardly ever visited. They're like places PC's only ever go to to fuck or to spar.

Players go there when they want privacy for any reason.  The two you listed, as well as private conversations, domestic role play, secret arcane rituals, murder, or just to set up a little chunk of Zalanthas that your character can call home.  There's absolutely no reason to prevent players from having this.  It isn't a luxury to have a hovel your character sleeps in every night.  Shelter is generally considered a basic human need.  

It's a luxury by Zalanthan standards. Realistically most commoners would be living in communal areas with very little privacy and no place to store things safely. All I see is a bunch of OOC reasons people want apartments, but not IC reasons people should have them. I feel there's already more than enough out there for an enterprising player who really wants one, and I don't think that will change much with removing Tuluk, because currently most apartments aren't used by people who NEED them, but people who want them to store their 5 burned chunks of meat. It's an OOC want over an IC need.

We don't need an apartment for every player, or even every other player. I like that there's a finite amount of them because it creates conflict if you NEED an apartment.

I think what would be more realistic is if there were guarded sleeping areas that didn't allow you free reign over a sleeping person, to subdue or steal from them as you please.

Lots of stuff isn't realistic. Let people err on the side of fun once in a while.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2015, 06:45:10 PM
It's a luxury by Zalanthan standards.

Nope, disagree. There are a few beggars scattered around Allanak, but you don't see street after street filled with the homeless. It's not described that way. Even the beggars may have homes to go to. They're a bunch of crappy mud-brick hovels with ceilings falling in, but they're homes.

The other OOC nice thing about apartments is they provide a location (there are others) to carry out a scene without too much of a worry about some random person walking in on it and breaking the scene up.

What's the harm in it?

People should keep in mind that commoners are effectively the middle class of Allanaki society.  This is especially true of PC commoners, who tend to get the better jobs because those are fun.  The majority of the city's population are slaves, they're the ones who sleep in communal living arrangements as a rule.  A large portion of the commoners work for the military, GMH, or noble families.  The remainder are probably indie merchants, mercenaries, whores, criminals, etc.  All of these jobs have incomes that can support a cheap apartment.

Having shelter assigned to you is believable. Having your own private shelter, that you don't have to share with anyone, where you can store your possessions and amass "stuff" should be a luxury.

To that end I'd be fine with limited-capacity bunkhouses. Sort of a reverse of the current situation, where you -can- have a room-mate share the rent if you want to. In this case, you would share it whether you want to or not, with up to "x" number of people depending on the size of the place. If you don't like your roomie you could a) learn to get along, b) kill them c) move elsewhere.

Bunkhouses could be further limited - half-giants only, dwarves only, GMH employees only, anyone -except- elves, anyone -except- gemmers, etc. etc. Could limit it pretty much any way the staff wants.

I don't feel very strongly on more/less apartments being needed, but I do think the amount of people allowed to rent in the same building could be higher. People living cramped together in their apartments is common in real life poorer areas, and ancient cities were no different.

Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2015, 07:02:14 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2015, 06:45:10 PM
It's a luxury by Zalanthan standards.

Nope, disagree. There are a few beggars scattered around Allanak, but you don't see street after street filled with the homeless. It's not described that way. Even the beggars may have homes to go to. They're a bunch of crappy mud-brick hovels with ceilings falling in, but they're homes.

Average citizens are not living in apartments with 24/7 guards at the front and locking doors. I'd contend there are TONS of beggars living on the street. Much like there are people living on the street in real life.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 14, 2015, 06:45:10 PM


I think what would be more realistic is if there were guarded sleeping areas that didn't allow you free reign over a sleeping person, to subdue or steal from them as you please.

For a price.

I just don't like there being only one area in the game where I can play a PC that can have a place of their own.  If you think Red Storm apartments were hard to come by before...  Also,  even if you're playing in a different clan,  you'll still run into a lot of the same people if you're playing in the same city.  That's one of the reasons this change feels so limiting to me.

I really haven't had the time to read but just under half the posts. This post was started yesterday and it's already at 15 pages and I don't know who has the time to read this. I put most of my "free" time into playing and I have lost a lot of that by reading this thread. Having said that I just wanted to voice some thoughts on this.

1) I am deeply saddened. As a player that hasn't really ever felt at home anywhere but Tuluk until my current character, which I'm enjoying immensely and love the RP that that PC has been getting involved with. I was seriously planning my next character as a return to Tuluk as I haven't had a Tuluki character in a while now.
2) I feel as though my options are getting cut off. I've been told several times that I should play characters in the same place back to back and now my options are seriously running out. I know where I'm at I couldn't possibly play another character back-to-back in that place. Being a player that absolutely HATES playing in Allanak and I have tried. I played on there when Tuluk was closed during the occupation to all but special roles and I hated it. My last character played in Allanak and I hated it so much that I forced myself to store that character, because I just couldn't get into playing there. I'm not one to stored characters on my own. In fact that was the 1st character current character I had ever stored. The one before that I stored I had been away for 5 RL years and just didn't see playing the character as a reality.
3) I feel for all the players that have current Tuluki PC's. Even ones that are going to keep their characters, finding a home will be very difficult. Limitation caps on GMH's are probably close to full. If the reasoning behind this is because of some win of the war with Allanak, even Tuluki's in a GMH will be even more criticized and hated in Allanak. If they decide to go to Luir's, which is really the only alternative for them there are no apartments there so they would either have to join Kurac (if there are any openings) or have no where for their belongings. This is going to have a huge impact on indy Tuluki merchants. I just feel really sorry for all these players that have probably put a lot of hard work, determination, love, and possibly even tears into their characters.
4) I know I've been rambling on and venting. Unlike most I'm not surprised by this happening, I really thought this was coming to pass. I am in shock and I'm saddened by this as the city that I loved and as a player always called home will no longer be home to me.

What considerations are staff putting into place for players that simply do not like playing in Allanak? Luir's is dead most of the time and I suspect with Tuluk closing it's going to become a greater out-of-the-way place for players to play in, Red Storm has it's up and down times but for the most part is usually dead. Tuluk was special (albiet it has gotten underpopulated and PC noble/templar top heavy) and the atmosphere and the culture were truly something I enjoyed playing and knew quite well. Most tribal locations don't see much population either. I'm not sure how many people out there are willing to play in Allanak and how many hate it to the point where they won't play there. I suspect I'm a rarity in the case of never getting to mesh a character there. But for the very few of us that don't like it, what will there be for us to play when it comes time to pick something?

If you don't like playing in Allanak, or the 'Rinth, or Luir's, or Red Storm, or human tribes, or elven tribes, and are absolutely unwilling to give any of those options another try... well... I don't know what sort of answer you're expecting.

Some of the options you listed might be options I'm already playing. If staff expect you to not play in the same area twice then what I am currently playing isn't available on my next go around. I'm just wondering what options or changes might be put into place to give something more Tuluki and less Allanaki. Also, like I said I'm just saddened and hurt by this. I'm sure I'll find something to do. I just cannot find a way of meshing Allanak, I don't care for it. The other places are options when available. Allanak never has been any fun for me.

I love my current PC and where I am right now. Like I said I'm having a lot of fun and experiencing a lot of new things. I'm just wondering what will be available when this character is no more.

I feel like if you gave it an honest chance you might find that Allanaki high society isn't really that alien to what you're comfortable with in Tuluk.

i'd also just recommend reading the whole thread. The first couple of posts are the best ones.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 08:35:57 PM
I feel like if you gave it an honest chance you might find that Allanaki high society isn't really that alien to what you're comfortable with in Tuluk.

Allanak - Everything is out front and confrontational. You screw up and the law and nobility have no qualms about killing you right there no matter where you are. Or even better they make a spectator sport of it and throw you in the arena.

Tuluk - Law and nobility pride themselves in strategic attacks that they try very hard to keep out of public eyes.

How do you view these with any kind of similarities?

They do not kill you right then and there. Sometimes they strategically kill you.

The whole yin-yang thing is really overblown on the GDB and in the game.

There's not really much that'll get you killed in Allanak that wouldn't also get you killed in Tuluk.

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 14, 2015, 08:55:14 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 08:35:57 PM
I feel like if you gave it an honest chance you might find that Allanaki high society isn't really that alien to what you're comfortable with in Tuluk.

Allanak - Everything is out front and confrontational. You screw up and the law and nobility have no qualms about killing you right there no matter where you are. Or even better they make a spectator sport of it and throw you in the arena.

Tuluk - Law and nobility pride themselves in strategic attacks that they try very hard to keep out of public eyes.

How do you view these with any kind of similarities?

Tuluki noble houses relatively recently ganged up to massacre an entire other noble house, and leading up to that, carried out multiple public assassinations.

Tuluki and Allanaki nobility face the same difficulties in regards to killing you if you upset them, I promise you that.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 09:02:49 PM
The whole yin-yang thing is really overblown on the GDB and in the game.

There's not really much that'll get you killed in Allanak that wouldn't also get you killed in Tuluk.

Haven't experienced allanak but basically this, its common sense really, do something stupid you shouldntve.. and well..GG.


The only difference between the two is in HOW you get killed. Its flavor.

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 14, 2015, 09:11:01 PM

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 14, 2015, 08:55:14 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 08:35:57 PM
I feel like if you gave it an honest chance you might find that Allanaki high society isn't really that alien to what you're comfortable with in Tuluk.

Allanak - Everything is out front and confrontational. You screw up and the law and nobility have no qualms about killing you right there no matter where you are. Or even better they make a spectator sport of it and throw you in the arena.

Tuluk - Law and nobility pride themselves in strategic attacks that they try very hard to keep out of public eyes.

How do you view these with any kind of similarities?

Tuluki noble houses relatively recently ganged up to massacre an entire other noble house, and leading up to that, carried out multiple public assassinations.

Tuluki and Allanaki nobility face the same difficulties in regards to killing you if you upset them, I promise you that.

I am aware of both of these. It's only been recently that that has changed and is quite out of sorts for documentation to do this sort of thing.

It's out of sorts for the old idea of Tuluk.

It's not out of sorts for the new idea of Tuluk, which is something I think a lot of players have had trouble coming around to.

Writing why I much prefer Tuluk and seriously can't stand playing in Allanak would send my already uber snob GDB reputation skyrocketing. It's really not the same at all (I also hate bards so it's not that part at all!)

I've always had terrible experiences in Allanak.

Quote from: solera on April 14, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
It is a golden opportunity to start a new tribe.  ;)

Yes, but I think it would be nice if it was a c-elf tribe (allanak or rinth) but I think that would be frowned upon by the staff.

Quote from: Malken on April 14, 2015, 09:54:03 PM
Writing why I much prefer Tuluk and seriously can't stand playing in Allanak would send my already uber snob GDB reputation skyrocketing. It's really not the same at all (I also hate bards so it's not that part at all!)

I've always had terrible experiences in Allanak.

Real question, I'm actually curious based on what you just wrote:

How much did you play in Tuluk after last summer's big documentation changes?

For those scared of losing conflict, you do realize how much some of the Southern Noble Houses hate each other, right? Tuluk wasn't open when I started playing, and Allanak absolutely bustled. You're going to see Allanak absolutely rock.

Sorry to those who loved Tuluk, but, staff? Thanks.

It's true. Allanak has been doing political intrigue since before Tulukis started wearing stars on their hands.

Hmmm...mixed feelings on this...mostly because I'm not sure how this will play out.

Lets take for example clans. There are certain clan such as the byn and merchant houses who most enjoyable premise is basically that it takes its employees back and forth between city states. Allowing them to mix their routines up with the events and people from both places, potentially allowing interesting things to happen in between. I can't help but feel that some of these clans, some with their schedules and other restrictions, will really become more oppressive and boring to play in, with no other place to go but Luirs now. I really hope some of them get looked at to make sure everyone has ample time to actually go out and get involved and start plots of their own, not just be forced to spar every single IC day in order to go fight some random NPC. Basically given some of the love the legion was getting before Nyr got promoted.

I also think there was a lot of appeal of having another city state with people playing there is that you could plot against them, or they could be plotting against you. Sure it might not have happened frequently but just the potential made the game more interesting. That will  be gone now and frankly the small upper-crust in allanak (nobles, templars and their aides) have a hard time involving the majority of the players who are at the gaj in their internal conflicts, much more so then in subtle (pre-war) tuluk if you ask me. Now if the plot had something to do with another city-state, or getting information, something done there, then those aides would need to get off their ass, make the right friends to get things done but that will no longer be there. However, with sponsored roles potentially opening up and other clans perhaps expanding maybe staff can find ways to bridge these gaps.

Still, I dunno, I feel as if that world will become a bit duller without a main antagonist like PC played tuluk, the staff will need to work harder to ensure there is more meaningful conflict within allanak that everyone can get involved in. And again even though no meaningful conflict arose between tuluk and allanak in many months, just the potential of it happening was important for the flavor of the game. Ultimately I don't feel a virtual tuluk will have the same effect.

Definitely a hard decisions though, and I do hope works out for the best and turns out to be great. If not, well as the staff have wisely done, they left an undo option just in case.

Tuluk's PC leadership over the past year had a lot of support, and opportunities to engage in various levels of conflict with Allanak.

More often than not, internal conflict resulted in significant delays and blockages to these plots, and when they occured, they largely did not involve Allanaki players.

What does this mean? Internal conflict is very real, and now that Allanak will be able to support a larger spectrum of politically-inclined PCs and the minions that go with them with additional staffers, there is an opportunity for really interesting internal conflict.

A common issue in Tuluk was that Noble A hated Noble B, and had the support of Noble C and Templar A, but Noble B had the support of a handful of important NPCs. It's really hard to involve NPCs in internal conflict. When you have more PC political actors, you vastly increase your opportunities for fun plots, and PCs can be less worried about coming off as antagonistic, because alienating 3 other people won't mean they've alienated the entire PC leadership of their city.

Hrm.

So...will other Allanaki clans be opening, after this?

I hope this could lead to more power ebbing its way back into the hands of the players.

I don't foresee a lifting of rank caps and I feel like staff have been pretty supportive of some big ideas from players in Tuluk even if they didn't all pan out, but maybe if this change helps staff feel less overtaxed and stretched thin, they will be able to better support these big ideas from players.

Just a few corrections/additions on the discourse in this thread.

In Luir's "bailey" area, there are not many hovels that are [save] rooms. In fact, I only know of one, unless it was changed in the past year.

A room that isn't a [save] room is just a dead end. It can't serve as a real home -- it's just a room, a meeting place. Yes, Luir's has a lot of those, but in my experience the only one ever used as a home at all is the one with the [save] flag. That one room is a really fun one to make into a hovel. Things get stolen from it, things are burned in it, but not always. I loved that hovel as a home for a PC I had for a few months, and I will forever love it. But there's only one of them in Luir's, and none in Red Storm. I totally think there should be at least three of those kinds of rooms in Luir's, Red Storm, and Allanak as well. I agree that increasing the number of hovels (with a [save] flag) would be great. I don't necessarily think that there need be more apartments, when Allanak usually has availabilities.

Another thing: Being Tuluki in Allanak is by no means impossible. I think a lot of people in this thread saying as much have simply never tried it. I've seen Tuluki-inked people live successfully in Allanak for very long periods.

Another thing: Being Tuluki outside of Tuluk is a great experience. I know this because I played a Tuluki that was banished for a time. It was by far my most memorable Tuluki PC. You're all in for a very enjoyable ride. I also think that there will still be Tulukis because that background is so much fun to play, not unlike being a breed. You now have a tribe. Elves from Tuluk can all be a "tribe" automatically -- tuluki inked elves. That brings togetherness.

This is going to be awesome in my opinion, and remember, staff have reassured that they are strongly considering re-opening it in the future (though that isn't a promise). I still support it, though I do have condolences to those who are active in Tuluk now. Also, as another disclaimer for those of you who haven't read my earlier posts, I played at least 8 Tulukis before ranging from bards to thieves to merchants and many hunters. I'll miss it too, but I also support this decision.

Man, listen, Allanak is about to become so very real. Not that it wasn't before, but ... man. All of this manpower filling the ranks of the various clans. Maybe membership in a Noble House will carry that "I got in!" feeling again. Tor bustles with officers. Fale is able to fill out it's bardic complement. Oashi Elites become a playable group again, perhaps. Everyone craves the luxurious Amber lifestyle of the Borsail Wyverns. Imagine a couple more Noble Houses opening, to further fray the political scene.

People filling and craving these roles is what has been the problem. Consolidation is a perfect solution to the issue. Rather than having two half-staffed/played political factions, you now have the one, vibrant and alive locale.

I'm am so, so for this. I'll miss Tuluk too, in a way. After all, I helped liberate it. But ... no, Allanak is where it's always been at, and where it always will be at. I'm so in. GMHs won't suffer at all. Someone suggested that some of the play for GMHs involved going from city to city. Trust me when I say this - most GMH players are just fine staying in one place, and traveling somewhere to visit. They mostly hate re-stationing.

Armageddon was never as rich to me as it was before Tuluk opened, when Allanak was the lone metropolitan option. I've got a feeling most of you will understand this in the coming months.

From what I understand, the loss of some player power was due to the lack of available staff support to properly help players make any sensible use of the power they could sensibly achieve. With all the staff concentrated a little more, I don't see why player power wouldn't increase.

As long as this is temporary, I suppose it'll do.

If it isn't, then I will be incredibly sad/depressed.

I don't think this is going to really afflict the pb in Nak as much as people think. Mostly, it'll effect staff workload. Which is the point.

Is Luirs even the right answer? It would be apart from the fact it's A: an active merchant house and B: do you want Luirs to become Tuluk-Lite?  Also the last 2 years IG Tuluk and Luirs weren't exactly on the best of terms (and that's being nice). Flood of Tuluki expats something will need be done to change (ret-con?) some of that stuff.

Maybe as a tempt fix but I'm not sure flats are the answer. Luirs wants trade. Not bums sitting about in their flats. Luirs is all about the money. It's a merchant house. It's not RS.

Quote from: Barsook on April 14, 2015, 09:55:50 PM

Quote from: solera on April 14, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
It is a golden opportunity to start a new tribe.  ;)

Yes, but I think it would be nice if it was a c-elf tribe (allanak or rinth) but I think that would be frowned upon by the staff.

I'm thinking more of the homeless levies and other rogues and vagabonds. The new gypsies.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 15, 2015, 04:08:07 AM
Imagine a couple more Noble Houses opening, to further fray the political scene.

The only thing I have ever really wanted to do on ARM is to play in a janitorial crew in House Jal, routinely cleaning out the sewers of sewer horrors, zombies and giant rats, as well as hiring gemmers to assist them down there blowing out shit/corpse blockages.

"Sir, it appears the fountain in the nobles' quarters has clogged again."
"Oh, damn. You had better bring the mul with you this time."

Or:

"Sir, it appears Ober Fale has accidentally flushed his signet ring down the latrine again."
"Put on your thigh-high boots, boys. We're going shitwalking."


EDIT:

WHO DO I SEND THIS ROLE APPLICATION TO

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 14, 2015, 08:55:14 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 08:35:57 PM
I feel like if you gave it an honest chance you might find that Allanaki high society isn't really that alien to what you're comfortable with in Tuluk.

Allanak - Everything is out front and confrontational. You screw up and the law and nobility have no qualms about killing you right there no matter where you are. Or even better they make a spectator sport of it and throw you in the arena.

Tuluk - Law and nobility pride themselves in strategic attacks that they try very hard to keep out of public eyes.

How do you view these with any kind of similarities?

That is their perceived reputation, based partly on docs and partly on opinions posted on the GDB. The reality of the game is a whole different ball of wax. The docs refer to a perceived reputation, AND they have actual rules and regs. And the players of templars and noblity, and the game code itself, has to adhere to certain rules and regs.

And if you screw up badly enough to get caught, and the screw-up is significant enough, then yes they'll toss you in the arena. And why not? Gives everyone else something to do for an hour, and lets you, the significant, busted screw-up, a chance to fight a critter you might not otherwise have a chance to fight. And ICly, the citizens get to cheer, all Hunger-Games-like, for the death of the underdog while reinforcing their own oppression and futility.

Win-win for everyone.

Quote from: Dresan on April 15, 2015, 02:24:05 AM
Hmmm...mixed feelings on this...mostly because I'm not sure how this will play out.

Lets take for example clans. There are certain clan such as the byn and merchant houses who most enjoyable premise is basically that it takes its employees back and forth between city states. Allowing them to mix their routines up with the events and people from both places, potentially allowing interesting things to happen in between.

I know this is such a small part of what you wrote, but I just wanted to say that was my very least favorite, and least sense-making aspect of GMH and Byn life. Traveling up to Tuluk in middle of a war as a southerner never made sense, and always felt OOCly driven to me. A northern Byn should be able to fill their ranks with all northerners, and the same should be said for the south and GMH's.

Traveling to Tuluk as a hardcore pro-Allanak GMH agent was an absolute chore for me, and the process of making sure both garrisons were staffed enough to be functional when the northern leadership were away from the game or non-existent was super stressful.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 15, 2015, 02:38:37 AM
Hrm.

So...will other Allanaki clans be opening, after this?

Even prior to this (only about a month or so prior I think), Allanak opened Tor and the Atrium.  Additionally, we will be increasing MMH support (the eventual minor merchant house option for independents) in Allanak, which means more warehouses and perhaps some other deviations along that path.  Long term, this means you might see more clans open up as players create their own, but short-term, there are several options available.  Clan caps will be adjusted where they make sense.  Some things will depend on where player interest resides and whether that aligns with what we can help facilitate.  (So, uh, don't create a bunch of PCs and go out to the farthest corners of the Known and expect that we will come behind you to create options there, unless you want those options to be local indigenous wildlife that has a taste for your PC.)

I feel so bad for the people who come into help-chat with questions about Tuluk :(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Like, explaining to a new player that the city they're in is closing shop  :'(

Quote from: solera on April 15, 2015, 05:40:51 AM

Quote from: Barsook on April 14, 2015, 09:55:50 PM

Quote from: solera on April 14, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
It is a golden opportunity to start a new tribe.  ;)

Yes, but I think it would be nice if it was a c-elf tribe (allanak or rinth) but I think that would be frowned upon by the staff.

I'm thinking more of the homeless levies and other rogues and vagabonds. The new gypsies.

Sounds like a clan than a tribe, but sounds like a fun one.

Quote from: Wolfsong on April 15, 2015, 05:50:02 AM

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 15, 2015, 04:08:07 AM
Imagine a couple more Noble Houses opening, to further fray the political scene.

The only thing I have ever really wanted to do on ARM is to play in a janitorial crew in House Jal, routinely cleaning out the sewers of sewer horrors, zombies and giant rats, as well as hiring gemmers to assist them down there blowing out shit/corpse blockages.

"Sir, it appears the fountain in the nobles' quarters has clogged again."
"Oh, damn. You had better bring the mul with you this time."

Or:

"Sir, it appears Ober Fale has accidentally flushed his signet ring down the latrine again."
"Put on your thigh-high boots, boys. We're going shitwalking."


EDIT:

WHO DO I SEND THIS ROLE APPLICATION TO

I don't know how I missed this post but I would play the shit out of this role.

Minor merchant house opportunity?

I never really thought that new Tuluk felt 'true' to how I envision Zalanthas. It seemed almost like a different game entirely. During the Allanaki occupation I -loved- playing in the north. There were raiders (Black Moon), rebels with a cool resistance element, and it just felt like a little war-torn village. There wasn't anything really sponsored up there to take away from the south but there was things going on - a lot of which was simply player driven.

I admit that I am a bit afraid that Allanak will now take a similar turn and start to get more...fluffy.

What felt fluffy about the new Tuluk? What in particular would you like to see avoided in Allanak?

Without delving into the details of recent Tuluki events players might have heard of, the vast majority have been player initiatives.

Allanaki politics is not all "in your face" as it seems people make it out to be. There are still laws and order and maintaining that kind of image is just as important in Allanak as it is in Tuluk. With more political players/minions and more staff attention, I think we can really see just how nuanced Allanaki politics can be. It's a much easier system for people to pick up as well, so should get more pcs involved (in theory).

Quote from: Wolfsong on April 15, 2015, 05:50:02 AM

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 15, 2015, 04:08:07 AM
Imagine a couple more Noble Houses opening, to further fray the political scene.

The only thing I have ever really wanted to do on ARM is to play in a janitorial crew in House Jal, routinely cleaning out the sewers of sewer horrors, zombies and giant rats, as well as hiring gemmers to assist them down there blowing out shit/corpse blockages.

"Sir, it appears the fountain in the nobles' quarters has clogged again."
"Oh, damn. You had better bring the mul with you this time."

Or:

"Sir, it appears Ober Fale has accidentally flushed his signet ring down the latrine again."
"Put on your thigh-high boots, boys. We're going shitwalking."


EDIT:

WHO DO I SEND THIS ROLE APPLICATION TO

10/10 would play

Move over Byn

Quote from: Setting Sun on April 15, 2015, 09:26:00 AM
What felt fluffy about the new Tuluk? What in particular would you like to see avoided in Allanak?

Without delving into the details of recent Tuluki events players might have heard of, the vast majority have been player initiatives.

On the other hand, I think a thread of things you liked about Tuluk that would be cool to see in Nak could be helpful.  A few things (among others) come to mind (take this with a grain of salt since I'm fairly new, so maybe these things are in Nak, and the fourth is obviously a separate thing atogether):

1. House Dasari!  (Duh.)  I suppose Borsail/Oash might get you this, but I always saw Borsail as Winrothol, and Oash deals with gicks not awesome science.  (Again, I could be wrong.)

2. House Kassigarh.  There were a lot of neat plots concerning the giving and lending of money.  Does Nak have something like that?

3. Bards (natch).  Of course, Fale gives you some of this, and I'm pretty excited to see how Fale responds to the influx of creative bardish Players.

4. The capacity to get away from all your friends and enemies for a while and experience a fresh crop of faces while still getting involved in city plots.  (I like desert elves too, but after playing crime or a noble or an aide, it can take a long time to clear the playing field/forget the plots, and my desert elves never live that long.  Alternative option: kill all the aides!)

I think House Sath or Rennik would function as closer approximations of Dasari, but neither of them are playable or exact matches in the way the Winrothol/Borsail/Kasix are.

I am not arguing for or against this but if luirs ever gets apartments, kurac will basically be the Templar/nobles/soldiers/merchants of the north all rolled up into one minus the sun-king and any associated abilities, force IC reverence  respect that comes with that and not to mention anyone can go hang out in luirs. That might not be a bad thing.

I do hope redstorm gets some more apartments, maybe even a few larger ones. And the area north of Redstorm gets looked at so that the weather is just a little more forgiving to newbies who didn't roll ranger. That weather code seems buggy there. I swear for me its either perfectly clear or you can't see a thing. A little more in between weather for playability reasons would be nice and to further promote player IC interactions (both negative and positive) between allanak and redstorm.

The Red Storm weather is bad, but I don't think that's a bug. Have you ever been to the sea? The wind at sea is crazy. Combine that with the Zalanthan sea being silt, and I think the weather over there is fine.

People from Storm should get direction sense.

Quote from: Patuk on April 15, 2015, 10:48:44 AM
The Red Storm weather is bad, but I don't think that's a bug. Have you ever been to the sea? The wind at sea is crazy. Combine that with the Zalanthan sea being silt, and I think the weather over there is fine.

I dunno, every time I get lost in those storms, it's the bugs that get me.

badum-tish

Quote from: Patuk on April 15, 2015, 10:48:44 AM
The Red Storm weather is bad, but I don't think that's a bug. Have you ever been to the sea? The wind at sea is crazy. Combine that with the Zalanthan sea being silt, and I think the weather over there is fine.

Oddly enough I think the area south of redstorm right on the silt sea is fine actually and is more forgiving. While it might not be a bug I always felt that area was like that to make redstorm a less desirable place to play or just to making travel there more annoying for people in allanak and redstorm. This is really a realism vs playability issue, I know it can be argued that it is realistic but I feel especially now that tuluk is gone people might be looking for alternatives on where to play, and it should be looked at once again.

Quote from: Dresan on April 15, 2015, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: Patuk on April 15, 2015, 10:48:44 AM
The Red Storm weather is bad, but I don't think that's a bug. Have you ever been to the sea? The wind at sea is crazy. Combine that with the Zalanthan sea being silt, and I think the weather over there is fine.

Oddly enough I think the area south of redstorm right on the silt sea is fine actually and is more forgiving. While it might not be a bug I always felt that area was like that to make redstorm a less desirable place to play or just to making travel there more annoying for people in allanak and redstorm. This is really a realism vs playability issue, I know it can be argued that it is realistic but I feel especially now that tuluk is gone people might be looking for alternatives on where to play, and it should be looked at once again.

Having played a long-lived Red Storm pc, the weather code is fine. It's a matter of learning how to adapt and live in that environment. It's probably similar to an Alaskan living during the winter there vs a Floridan trying to live in the same situation. Is playability a concern for the Floridan? Sure, but that doesnt mean the weather needs to be fixed.

Quote from: solera on April 15, 2015, 05:40:51 AM

Quote from: Barsook on April 14, 2015, 09:55:50 PM

Quote from: solera on April 14, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
It is a golden opportunity to start a new tribe.  ;)

Yes, but I think it would be nice if it was a c-elf tribe (allanak or rinth) but I think that would be frowned upon by the staff.

I'm thinking more of the homeless levies and other rogues and vagabonds. The new gypsies.

Except they're not homeless. Tuluk is virtual, so technically it would still be operating the exact same.

If the situation in Tuluk becomes common knowledge, it would be nice if staff could make a general announcement on the GDB of the IG reason so that players know how to play subsequent characters with a Tuluki background.

Sorry if I am not following this well enough.
But isn't there going to BE something ICLY for Tuluki?
I thought for sure I saw where staff say things will icly make sense.
Just first it was told OOCLY? Maybe things in game just hasn't kicked off yet and we all should wait.

Staff did encourage current Tuluki PCs to send in requests so arrangements can be made, regarding what will happen to your PC when Tuluk closes for play. So I imagine that various PCs will be given various IC reasons to leave the city, or store.

With that said, I'm excited about the prospects.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 15, 2015, 10:52:20 AM
People from Storm should get direction sense.

I can see how this'd make sense ICly, but this would make Stormer backgrounds wayyyyyyy powerful on anything not a ranger.

Not really. Cap it at advanced. Non-master direction sense still fails in bad storms, but it would help you at least get back to the gates.

edit: oh, huh, I'm in the Tuluk thread. How'd that happen? Something tells me we got a little off topic...

Quote from: Kankfly on April 15, 2015, 11:57:57 AM
Staff did encourage current Tuluki PCs to send in requests so arrangements can be made, regarding what will happen to your PC when Tuluk closes for play. So I imagine that various PCs will be given various IC reasons to leave the city, or store.

It's a mix of all of the above.  There will be stuff IC.  There will also be you (as a Tuluki player) talking to staff; some players may want to work with staff to find something that works best for their PC and that may not necessarily be what works for others.

I posted some questions yesterday?  No answers from staff.  So here they are again.

I am still not clear as to why -none- of Tuluk can be left open, in the same  way as the Blackwing Post  or the Mul outpost or Cenyrs ? It would be very helpful to folks playing up there, not to mention the GMH who will need places to store stuff, and having the nearest location Luirs..just seems unrealistic to me. 

I think keeping some parts of Tuluk open, even in the same way as Cenyrs is open would enhance the game and would not take much staff time if any.

This effectively isolates the Akei who have only just re opened.  Allwoing a small bit of Tuluk to remain open would increase interaction up in that corner of the known.

Just asking.



Also posted about this really increasing the stature of Kurac, yet through OOC means. Are staff going to take that into consideration and attempt to equalize things? Or does Luirs just become the new Tuluk?

I imagine staff have thought these things through. Perhaps it is just too soon to share any details.

There will be a northern outpost or something, staff have said it many times, but this thread is super long so I could see how it might get buried.

Quote from: wizturbo on April 15, 2015, 01:40:38 PM
There will be a northern outpost or something, staff have said it many times, but this thread is super long so I could see how it might get buried.

Thanks I have seen it from Adhira. But I don't see that it is Tuluk.

Cheers

For those with worry about Allanak not having an intriguing subtlety scene, I can promise that it's alive, and exceptional. 8) The in-your-face thing seems more suited to the way punishments and the like are carried out. Instead of carrying you off to a room in the middle of nowhere to die, you'll be tossed in the Arena, or any of the other fun devices around the city. Everything leading up to that though; very good chance of some out-of-sight plotting going on. Please do come give it a try, we usual Allanak players will be glad to have you there!

(Okay Talia, you promised me five bucks for victims, gimme.)

Yes, there will be a small outpost near Tuluk. No, it will not be a full replacement for Tuluk, not for anyone, including the GMHs, because that is not what is intended.

You can ask further questions of your clan staff.

Many things we can't tell you exactly what will happen, because we don't necessarily know yet. You will need to be patient and accept that things will happen in time.

Luirs - I don't see any reason to think that OOCly, somehow, Kurac will suddenly be more important. Maybe time to engage in some GMH politics within Allanak?

Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on April 15, 2015, 02:03:40 PM
(Okay Talia, you promised me five bucks for victims, gimme.)

You know, when you TELL people about our sekret deals, it takes all the subtlety out of it  :-[

I think I would prefer a full closure myself to add to the mystery of what is happening behind the walls. It will still exist after all.

Quote from: Norcal on April 15, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
I posted some questions yesterday?  No answers from staff.  So here they are again.

I am still not clear as to why -none- of Tuluk can be left open, in the same  way as the Blackwing Post  or the Mul outpost or Cenyrs ? It would be very helpful to folks playing up there, not to mention the GMH who will need places to store stuff, and having the nearest location Luirs..just seems unrealistic to me. 

Keeping Tuluk "Open" http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878434.html#msg878434 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878434.html#msg878434)

Quote from: Norcal on April 15, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
I think keeping some parts of Tuluk open, even in the same way as Cenyrs is open would enhance the game and would not take much staff time if any.

Tiny Tuluk http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878441.html#msg878441 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878441.html#msg878441)

Quote from: Norcal on April 15, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
This effectively isolates the Akei who have only just re opened.  Allwoing a small bit of Tuluk to remain open would increase interaction up in that corner of the known.

ATV: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878330.html#msg878330 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878330.html#msg878330)

Quote from: Norcal on April 15, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
Also posted about this really increasing the stature of Kurac, yet through OOC means. Are staff going to take that into consideration and attempt to equalize things? Or does Luirs just become the new Tuluk?

Luirs http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878240.html#msg878240 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878240.html#msg878240)

Quote from: Norcal on April 15, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
I imagine staff have thought these things through. Perhaps it is just too soon to share any details.

Other similar question asked/answered en-masse previously http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878540.html#msg878540 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49200.msg878540.html#msg878540)

Quote from: Talia on April 15, 2015, 02:06:31 PM
Yes, there will be a small outpost near Tuluk. No, it will not be a full replacement for Tuluk, not for anyone, including the GMHs, because that is not what is intended.

You can ask further questions of your clan staff.

Many things we can't tell you exactly what will happen, because we don't necessarily know yet. You will need to be patient and accept that things will happen in time.

Luirs - I don't see any reason to think that OOCly, somehow, Kurac will suddenly be more important. Maybe time to engage in some GMH politics within Allanak?

Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on April 15, 2015, 02:03:40 PM
(Okay Talia, you promised me five bucks for victims, gimme.)

You know, when you TELL people about our sekret deals, it takes all the subtlety out of it  :-[

aint got no time for that subtlety crap down here in nak

now get in the ruff circle

Quote from: Norcal on April 15, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
I posted some questions yesterday?  No answers from staff.  So here they are again.

I am still not clear as to why -none- of Tuluk can be left open, in the same  way as the Blackwing Post  or the Mul outpost or Cenyrs ? It would be very helpful to folks playing up there, not to mention the GMH who will need places to store stuff, and having the nearest location Luirs..just seems unrealistic to me.

I think keeping some parts of Tuluk open, even in the same way as Cenyrs is open would enhance the game and would not take much staff time if any.

This is something on which we would disagree.  The Blackwing Outpost doesn't have to be staff supported, nor does the Mul outpost, nor does Cenyr.  Tuluk does.  Transforming a staff-intensive area into a non-staff-intensive area is a staff-intensive process in and of itself.  I'm afraid we are not going to leave it open.

Quote
This effectively isolates the Akei who have only just re opened.

The Akei are not quite as isolated as you might think, as much has changed with them.  This would be something that can be discovered IC and I really encourage everyone interested to do so--it is pretty cool.  Enthemu did some amazing work on that with the Indies team.

Quote
Also posted about this really increasing the stature of Kurac, yet through OOC means. Are staff going to take that into consideration and attempt to equalize things? Or does Luirs just become the new Tuluk?

This is a lot of stuff packed into a few sentences.  I'll start at the back end here:  I'm not sure what you mean by Luir's becoming the new Tuluk.  We don't want a place to become the new Tuluk.  We do expect that Luir's will become a more important location.  The reason for this is that it will be an outpost that is at the fringes of playable, human-centric influence, rather than a waypoint between two PC-played city-state powers.  We will take the time to flesh out Luir's some more as well as Red Storm and other "outpost" type locations that exist elsewhere in the Known World.  We've also said that there will be a northern outpost that we're looking to set up.  This location will not be Tuluk, but it will be near it.

QuoteI imagine staff have thought these things through. Perhaps it is just too soon to share any details.

I think we've posted about these things a bit elsewhere in the thread, maybe worded differently, but happy to explain.

To add to what Nyr said, one of the things mentioned is that with this consolidation we are stating that its primary purpose is to consolidate our staffing effort. This means we have more time to look at things like GMH, this includes Kurac. Luirs won't become a sudden stronghold and major power point. Kurac isn't going to become the New Tuluk, there is no IC reason for that. Tuluk is still there. Luirs is still Luirs, Kurac is still Kurac. Now staff have time to put into those areas of the game that need some attention, the wilderness areas, the GMH etc. This doesn't mean radical changes (don't panic playerbase, we're not going to decimate what you love), but hopefully long awaited enhancements and updates to things that deserve it.

Thanks everyone and a special thanks to Whitt for the links!  That was super helpful.

I still think that improving Luirs and Storm for OOC reasons has a direct positive IC impact on Kurac as a clan. I think there are a number of other downstream issues that could come from this IC.  As I see it now, and this could just be my perception and risk matrix brain cells popping into drive, I think the other GMH will have to rely more heavily on Luirs and Kurac for a number of reasons. But Adhiras post came while I was writing this, and it has satisfied my overactive imagination. Thanks Adhira.

So now I will shut up and get on a plane.

Cheers

Quote from: Jeax on April 15, 2015, 11:11:37 AM

Quote from: solera on April 15, 2015, 05:40:51 AM

Quote from: Barsook on April 14, 2015, 09:55:50 PM

Quote from: solera on April 14, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
It is a golden opportunity to start a new tribe.  ;)

Yes, but I think it would be nice if it was a c-elf tribe (allanak or rinth) but I think that would be frowned upon by the staff.

I'm thinking more of the homeless levies and other rogues and vagabonds. The new gypsies.

Except they're not homeless. Tuluk is virtual, so technically it would still be operating the

I knows that! I mean our snowflake PCs ,who for reasons only known by themselves, are leaving Home.

As long as, we see very powerful PCs in 'nak (Red robes, senior nobles, senior merchants, etc.), I kinda feel there would be much improvement for the game. Good luck!

Quote from: Gaare on April 15, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
As long as, we see very powerful PCs in 'nak (Red robes, senior nobles, senior merchants, etc.), I kinda feel there would be much improvement for the game. Good luck!

I wouldn't count on Red Robes, but more vertical progression has already been occurring in many areas for quite some time before this announcement.

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 04:32:24 PM

Quote from: Gaare on April 15, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
As long as, we see very powerful PCs in 'nak (Red robes, senior nobles, senior merchants, etc.), I kinda feel there would be much improvement for the game. Good luck!

I wouldn't count on Red Robes, but more vertical progression has already been occurring in many areas for quite some time before this announcement.

But it wouldn't be out of the question, righttt? (About red robes, because they make me happy)

I WILL EXPLODE A MOUNTAIN WITH MIGHTY TEKTOLNES' POWER

...Unless I'm a PC red robe, then I am laaaaaaaaaaame

Quote from: Zoan on April 15, 2015, 05:29:52 PM
I WILL EXPLODE A MOUNTAIN WITH MIGHTY TEKTOLNES' POWER

...Unless I'm a PC red robe, then I am laaaaaaaaaaame

"TIME TO THROW A VOLCANO"
Wish all "So do I have the 'blow up everything spell' or how do I branch it"

Quote from: Jihelu on April 15, 2015, 05:19:46 PM
But it wouldn't be out of the question, righttt? (About red robes, because they make me happy)

There are no plans to make Red Robe or senior noble an achievable-without-storage rank again. That's not the direction we are moving.

Which struck me as weird - haven't our player numbers been growing lately?

Quote from: Zoan on April 15, 2015, 05:37:01 PM
Which struck me as weird - haven't our player numbers been growing lately?

Player numbers have nothing to do with why Red Robes and senior nobility are not playable roles. Or did you mean something else?

Quote from: Zoan on April 15, 2015, 05:37:01 PM
Which struck me as weird - haven't our player numbers been growing lately?

Quote from: Talia on April 13, 2015, 10:00:07 PM

Quote from: Wolfsong on April 13, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
I wasn't aware ARM's playerbase was declining so rapidly to warrant something like this, but... I guess it explains why all the d-elves and gypsies are coming back.

It's not declining. It dropped significantly after the ARM 2.0 announcement in 2006, and recovered somewhat by 2008-2009. We've been at a very steady number since then, it's just not as high as it was in 2006. Since Allanak generally remains at a certain number of players, the effect of having fewer players overall is that Tuluk has big swings up and down. However, it requires just as much staff (perhaps more staff) as Allanak does.

Inquiring minds want to know what direction the game is going

Low fantasy is one i can confirm, to which i can confirm at least 13 people who are in favour of that

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 15, 2015, 05:42:49 PM
Inquiring minds want to know what direction the game is going

I can't give you an official answer from the Producer standpoint, but some stuff I know we are doing (all of which is already visible to the playerbase):

-- Improvements to code and technology
-- Increased OOC responsibility for important game functions granted to trusted players (Helpers, GDB moderators, Builders)
-- Better documentation of game administration systems and processes (e.g. karma granting)
-- Improved clan documentation, both player-side and staff-side
-- Improved clan systems
-- Flattening of IC power structures to facilitate PC-to-PC conflict (no Red Robes, no senior nobles)
-- Staff-initiated large plots which involve multiple clan groups
-- Facilitation of player-driven/initiated plots and plot twists
-- Action in plots happening at the PC level rather than V/NPC
-- Emphasis on low fantasy elements of the game (though high fantasy continues to exist, it's in the back seat rather than driving)
-- Adding code which offers more fun stuff to players (extended subguilds, new skills)

There's probably more, all of which you could guess from stuff we've actually done the last few years.

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 15, 2015, 05:42:49 PM
Inquiring minds want to know what direction the game is going

Low fantasy is one i can confirm, to which i can confirm at least 13 people who are in favour of that

Low fantasy is another way of saying "when there is big major magick and fantastical stuff, it will be rare, so as to preserve the mystery and desire to actually see big major magick and fantastical stuff...and not make it an everyday occurrence."

Then why remove halflings?  they were very low

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 15, 2015, 06:08:44 PM
Then why remove halflings?  they were very low

I'll let this pun slide for now.

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 06:16:57 PM

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 15, 2015, 06:08:44 PM
Then why remove halflings?  they were very low

I'll let this pun slide for now.

We'll keep it on the down 'low'.

As a longtime player who has been inactive for about a year and a half but keeps tabs on major announcements...

... AWESOME.

I like the idea of consolidating the player base.  I miss playing stuff like gith, but I think consolidating the player base is always a great idea.

Awesome.

Just giving my two cents.

I also like flattening the power structure... that makes sense.

And maybe I'll come back soon. (though don't wanna toss my social life, sigh).

Quote from: Talia on April 15, 2015, 05:54:33 PM
-- Improvements to code and technology
-- Increased OOC responsibility for important game functions granted to trusted players (Helpers, GDB moderators, Builders)
-- Better documentation of game administration systems and processes (e.g. karma granting)
-- Improved clan documentation, both player-side and staff-side
-- Improved clan systems
-- Flattening of IC power structures to facilitate PC-to-PC conflict (no Red Robes, no senior nobles)
-- Staff-initiated large plots which involve multiple clan groups
-- Facilitation of player-driven/initiated plots and plot twists
-- Action in plots happening at the PC level rather than V/NPC
-- Emphasis on low fantasy elements of the game (though high fantasy continues to exist, it's in the back seat rather than driving)
-- Adding code which offers more fun stuff to players (extended subguilds, new skills)

There's probably more, all of which you could guess from stuff we've actually done the last few years.

This is the most transparent post I've ever seen from staff in regards to which direction the game is heading and whats on the horizon. Perhaps I've missed some posts in the past though as forward as these. I appreciate it (and I'm certain other players do).

I will say though harping on what was said about what's been closed / taken away from the playable game... Consolidation is a good thing. Focus is a good thing (even in a sandbox). But options are as well. I'm not one of these old players whose seen mantis. Seen playable Gith. Seen weird magicker clans out in the sands. Halflings. The Grey before it was a largely unplayable death zone, etc, etc, etc...

Options and color are a good thing. Maybe if you want to make the sandbox smaller, fine, but please be wary of limiting options.

Surprised but not necessarily disappointed. If nothing else we can see if there's merit to the consolidated player base often suggested.

I haven't read this thread from cover to cover, but I'm hoping it's still okay to create a character with a Tuluk background.

Quote from: flurry on April 15, 2015, 08:05:28 PM
Surprised but not necessarily disappointed. If nothing else we can see if there's merit to the consolidated player base often suggested.

I haven't read this thread from cover to cover, but I'm hoping it's still okay to create a character with a Tuluk background.

It is. Staff have constantly said Tuluk will still be a thing - you just can't live there or enter there on a non-virtual level.

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 02:12:27 PM

Quote from: Norcal on April 15, 2015, 01:30:04 PM

Quote
Also posted about this really increasing the stature of Kurac, yet through OOC means. Are staff going to take that into consideration and attempt to equalize things? Or does Luirs just become the new Tuluk?

This is a lot of stuff packed into a few sentences.  I'll start at the back end here:  I'm not sure what you mean by Luir's becoming the new Tuluk.  We don't want a place to become the new Tuluk.  We do expect that Luir's will become a more important location.  The reason for this is that it will be an outpost that is at the fringes of playable, human-centric influence, rather than a waypoint between two PC-played city-state powers.  We will take the time to flesh out Luir's some more as well as Red Storm and other "outpost" type locations that exist elsewhere in the Known World.  We've also said that there will be a northern outpost that we're looking to set up.  This location will not be Tuluk, but it will be near it.

This makes me think more and more that Luir's will become much more like Red Storm in the near future, very few PCs around besides PCs in the Kuraci clan. Already there's very few that come through that are not in the Kuraci clan and it takes events to inspire PCs to come there. At least, with Tuluk open PCs had a reason to stop in even if it was for a brief amount of time. This is very sad.

Now onto another thing:

I'm very curious why ATV's were opened when Staff was already overwhelmed and stretched out (thus causing Tuluk to close). Why open a new clan when you plan on closing a city? Especially because in a Post by Nyr he indicated a lot of work was done to make changes to the ATV. Couldn't that time have been better spent to renewing interest in Tuluk.

Please don't get me wrong I completely understand the need to have staff optimal capabilities and I completely understand that closing Tuluk will free up staff to do a lot of good fun new things. I'm just curious if other things could have been done, such as maybe closing Red Storm, not re-opening ATV, etc? I'm suspecting the answer to this would be that Tuluk takes up much more staff resources than Red Storm and ATV do. In that case I understand.

Moving on in another post a player (sorry I don't remember who and I don't feel like roaming the 19 pages in this thread to find it) asked what players didn't like about Tuluk and what they did like so I figured I'd put in my 2 'sids worth for this.

Didn't likes:
1) I really didn't like the fact that Tuluk was so templar/noble PC top heavy. By this I mean it seemed like staff was trying to get interest by opening role calls, while in theory this should and could inspire interest, however it also created a situation that from what I saw caused the PC Tuluki citizenship to fall with about 1 templar/noble for every 2 or 3 commoner citizen. This caused a very unrealistic feel to Tuluk as I'm sure population wise there would be a lot more commoners than templar/nobles. I do give kudos to staff for trying to inspire people to play in Tuluk.
2) I really didn't see the reasoning behind closing one tavern just to open another, maybe it was to try and put the two taverns closer together to increase the chances of PC interaction, I don't know.
3) I feel a lot of players became quite uninspired to even go to Tuluk if they were not citizens when the barricades got put in. The amount of players playing in Tuluk decreased quite a bit after that happened.
4) The filth getting added to the streets. I'm not sure if this was another attempt from Staff to draw players in, considering this is a thing that draws players to Allanak or if it was part of the plots to eventually close Tuluk. Tuluki citizens (even the lowliest) are proud of how clean and nice looking Tuluk is and that's what caused it to be better (in their eyes) than Allanak.

Likes:
1) Bards: I actually had bards IG ask some of my previous characters to apply to join the circle, even considered this at one point but felt it would restrict my PCs with how they did things. I wish I had have gotten a chance to actually play a bard from the Circle from the start.
2) Clean streets, beautiful art, freedom to have a King that didn't cause submission by fear but more from being someone that wanted his people to prosper and become the best they could be.
3) The subtlety behind things. I never did get to play a shadow type PC after the changes went into affect. I liked the changes though and felt that these enhanced the whole thing behind Tuluk. I felt that this also showed more of the tradition of what led to the liberation of Tuluk and this allowed history to come alive for me, albeit from more of a OOC standpoint than a IC standpoint but I had some good IC RP after the changes went through and because of the changes.
4) Tea, I know there's tea elsewhere in the game however it isn't nearly as much of a daily occurrence.

Still shocked about Tuluk going away and let me reiterate this: I completely understand the need for this to have happened, however it doesn't mean I can't be saddened, angered, and disappointed by this change.

#2 in that "likes" list is rather... naive.  ;D

Quote from: Delirium on April 15, 2015, 08:22:56 PM
#2 in that "likes" list is rather... naive.  ;D

;)

I'm not really sure if that was meant as a joke or an insult. Considering you didn't bother to explain yourself or your response I'm not really sure what is meant by it.

In character, it's accurate propaganda. Out of character, it's very inaccurate. Tuluk is an iron-fisted, dystopic regime hidden behind a pretty facade.

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 15, 2015, 08:18:13 PM
This makes me think more and more that Luir's will become much more like Red Storm in the near future, very few PCs around besides PCs in the Kuraci clan. Already there's very few that come through that are not in the Kuraci clan and it takes events to inspire PCs to come there. At least, with Tuluk open PCs had a reason to stop in even if it was for a brief amount of time. This is very sad.

What part of that post makes you think any of this?

Quote
I'm very curious why ATV's were opened when Staff was already overwhelmed and stretched out (thus causing Tuluk to close). Why open a new clan when you plan on closing a city? Especially because in a Post by Nyr he indicated a lot of work was done to make changes to the ATV. Couldn't that time have been better spent to renewing interest in Tuluk.

Please don't get me wrong I completely understand the need to have staff optimal capabilities and I completely understand that closing Tuluk will free up staff to do a lot of good fun new things. I'm just curious if other things could have been done, such as maybe closing Red Storm, not re-opening ATV, etc? I'm suspecting the answer to this would be that Tuluk takes up much more staff resources than Red Storm and ATV do. In that case I understand.

I'll use an analogy I used for another change (character reports).  

Picture this scenario:  I need to cut some calories and lose weight.  I eat a whole chocolate cake each day because I love cake.  I eat a candy bar once per week because I like candy bars.  Your advice here is for me to stop eating candy bars so that I can lose weight.

Quote from: Delirium on April 15, 2015, 08:44:08 PM
In character, it's accurate propaganda. Out of character, it's very inaccurate. Tuluk is an iron-fisted, dystopic regime hidden behind a pretty facade.

This is spot-on.

Yeah, no insult intended here :)

Quote from: Delirium on April 15, 2015, 08:44:08 PM
In character, it's accurate propaganda. Out of character, it's very inaccurate. Tuluk is an iron-fisted, dystopic regime hidden behind a pretty facade.

Sorry, I meant that IC I liked that.

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 08:46:16 PM

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 15, 2015, 08:18:13 PM
This makes me think more and more that Luir's will become much more like Red Storm in the near future, very few PCs around besides PCs in the Kuraci clan. Already there's very few that come through that are not in the Kuraci clan and it takes events to inspire PCs to come there. At least, with Tuluk open PCs had a reason to stop in even if it was for a brief amount of time. This is very sad.

What part of that post makes you think any of this?

Most do not travel to places on the outer fringes of civilization without a reason.

Quote
I'm very curious why ATV's were opened when Staff was already overwhelmed and stretched out (thus causing Tuluk to close). Why open a new clan when you plan on closing a city? Especially because in a Post by Nyr he indicated a lot of work was done to make changes to the ATV. Couldn't that time have been better spent to renewing interest in Tuluk.

Please don't get me wrong I completely understand the need to have staff optimal capabilities and I completely understand that closing Tuluk will free up staff to do a lot of good fun new things. I'm just curious if other things could have been done, such as maybe closing Red Storm, not re-opening ATV, etc? I'm suspecting the answer to this would be that Tuluk takes up much more staff resources than Red Storm and ATV do. In that case I understand.

I'll use an analogy I used for another change (character reports).  

Picture this scenario:  I need to cut some calories and lose weight.  I eat a whole chocolate cake each day because I love cake.  I eat a candy bar once per week because I like candy bars.  Your advice here is for me to stop eating candy bars so that I can lose weight.
[/quote]

I completely understand, Nyr. I already stated in my post that the resources that Tuluk requires probably isn't even close to those of the other two. Thank you for verifying this.

 It seems like people are trying to come up with every way possible this might be bad, instead of just waiting to see what the effects are and judging from there. Why get yourself worked up over something that may or may not happen? Half the concerns that people keep bringing up are things we have no way of knowing until we play things out. I suggest everyone just relax instead of working themselves up in a tizzy. The nature of the way that staff is going about this seems to make it easily reversible. Not that I think it will be, because I think this will do countless good things for the game, but the option will be there.

Should honestly just close off the entire Northlands.

tldr; unpopular opinion

I hope we get a major RPT that day of the closing as a good-bye and to share stories if that closing is before 11:59 PM that day.

That brings to mind a question. If there's going to be a noteworthy RPT to close out Tuluk, is there any chance that players that are unable to get their PCs to Tuluk might have a room of sorts to watch what happens?

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 15, 2015, 09:49:48 PM
That brings to mind a question. If there's going to be a noteworthy RPT to close out Tuluk, is there any chance that players that are unable to get their PCs to Tuluk might have a room of sorts to watch what happens?

There would be no way to codedly do this.

I think I have a couple logs/other interesting things from the last year or so of Tuluk that I'll open up a request about submitting. I think with Tuluk closing and involved PCs being gone they might make for entertaining reads.

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 09:57:08 PM

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 15, 2015, 09:49:48 PM
That brings to mind a question. If there's going to be a noteworthy RPT to close out Tuluk, is there any chance that players that are unable to get their PCs to Tuluk might have a room of sorts to watch what happens?

There would be no way to codedly do this.

Wouldn't it work along the lines of the Nakki arena room for Tulukki players?


I'm pretty bummed out about this, I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it still feels like someone just took the last of my favorite chocolate from the shelf and the lines been discontinued.

You said this was decided upon about a month ago, which is about when you announced the ATV re-opening. Is there any connection between these, or just coincidence?

How do you guys see this affecting the northlands in regards to PC play?

Rp'ing this is kind of super awkward, you just feel like asking people what they're planning to do now but you have to pretend that it's business as usual and you're looking for work in Winrothol or whatev.

I'm super curious about what event would make some people want to leave the city while it still "exists" with other people in it.

"holy shit there seems to be cool stuff down south let's ride that way"

Quote from: Kol on April 15, 2015, 10:32:37 PM

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 09:57:08 PM

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 15, 2015, 09:49:48 PM
That brings to mind a question. If there's going to be a noteworthy RPT to close out Tuluk, is there any chance that players that are unable to get their PCs to Tuluk might have a room of sorts to watch what happens?

There would be no way to codedly do this.

Wouldn't it work along the lines of the Nakki arena room for Tulukki players?

Yes, if there was an RPT that was in one set of rooms, but many RPTs are not--even the ones inside cities (especially if they are disruptive).  Action often happens in multiple places, it moves, etc.  If you had wanted to watch the RPT from Sunday, you would've had to have been staff to see everything going on.

Arena events stay inside the Arena, so they are very much easier to control in that regard.

QuoteYou said this was decided upon about a month ago, which is about when you announced the ATV re-opening. Is there any connection between these, or just coincidence?

There is no connection between the two.

Quote
How do you guys see this affecting the northlands in regards to PC play?

This depends on a lot of variables, so it would be hard to say.  There will be no city-state to play in, so anyone playing up there would likely be part of one of the groups that would go there (tribal or affiliated somehow).  There will probably be loner types playing around in the area.  Apart from what we have mentioned so far, there will not be any specific new groups set up by staff.  I know this is pretty generic, but the question is pretty broad, and relies heavily on what PCs actually do.

Quote from: Malken on April 15, 2015, 11:08:30 PM
Rp'ing this is kind of super awkward, you just feel like asking people what they're planning to do now but you have to pretend that it's business as usual and you're looking for work in Winrothol or whatev.

I'm super curious about what event would make some people want to leave the city while it still "exists" with other people in it.

I know exactly what you mean!, I'm curious, but, you know what I'm excited for?

All of the characters that will be leaving Tuluk - they'll be leaving, somehow.. who knows how. Leaving Tuluk like that will open up numerous possible plots and opportunities  many of the characters probably haven't ever had - changes, like whatevers coming, don't happen often, and the characters will have to embrace a -huge- change. Embracing change in a RP can lead to awesome fun.

I'm expecting lots of people to have awesome stories to tell within a year or twos time! :D

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 15, 2015, 11:10:14 PM
"holy shit there seems to be cool stuff down south let's ride that way"

After seeing a new light in the southern skies, faithful Tuluki citizens across the Known take it as a sign from the all-knowing Sun King Muk Utep and begins a pilgrimage southward, though they know not what awaits them.

In latter days, it shall be known as the Three Million Wise-Man March.

In even latter days, it shall be known as the "Dumb people saw a bright light and ran off towards it" days.


And of course I miss all the fancy light things while at work.

WAKE UP SHEEPLES, TULUK NEVER EXISTED FOR REAL, WE'RE ALL BATTERIES HOOKED UP TO MUK UTEP'S TEATS

Quote-- Flattening of IC power structures to facilitate PC-to-PC conflict (no Red Robes, no senior nobles)

I'd missed this, mostly because I'd read it and assumed it was just more of the same glass ceiling discussion.  However, it now occurs that this is a massive overhaul in progress, and with Tuluk now announced as gone, that means you're planning on doing this same overhaul you tried to do in Tuluk, but now in the social structure that has remained stable and conducive to the role of the game.

I'm curious why there seems to be this obsession with this idea, as a whole, because every time I hear about it, it makes my nose wrinkle a bit.  Equalizing social classes and limiting power structures in a totalitarian, god-king run city -really- doesn't make much sense, to me, so whenever this pops up it makes me really question why it's pushed for so hard, particularly since I don't hear anything about it actually bearing the fruit you speak of.

If this is just more of the same glass ceiling for PC's, disregard this.  Otherwise, I'd kind of like to know why things that aren't broken are being fixed in your eyes, and the reversal in my eyes.

You don't need really high ranks in 2 or 3 organizations to aspire to. You need a half dozen organizations whose members can reasonably compete with each other. That's what drives conflict and plots.

It's the best decision that Armageddon's staff have made in years, and it's long overdue.

It's the first sign, in a long time, to my eyes at least, that the game might return to some vestige of its former glory. If its really followed through with the hilt.

I've often been highly critical in the past. I'm not afraid to give praise where it's due. I have a tremendous amount of new found respect for staff's courage in making this much needed return to how it used to be, and I think the game, as people adjust, will benefit immensely from its retrenchment.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 16, 2015, 01:16:36 AM
You don't need really high ranks in 2 or 3 organizations to aspire to. You need a half dozen organizations whose members can reasonably compete with each other. That's what drives conflict and plots.

As is, PC's already can't aspire to those positions, but it maintains the social hierarchy.  My concern is, essentially, that messing with things that don't need to be messed with will lead to unforeseen effects that then require fixing and tweaking.  In the meantime, 'knowledge' of the game world is scrambled, in order to try and generate PC to PC conflict that is actually already there.  Keeping those higher ranks intact keeps IC interactions manageable, having to run things by certain people, and provides a time-tested platform for how the society interacts.

Scrambling it up to try and promote conflict is well and good, but there have been multitudes of other suggestions to accomplish the same things that do not require extensive scrambling of the well-known state-of-play in each city.  Not only that, but it also provides an organic 'in' for staff to influence things in game, as has been the practice for a good long time.

In short...we're spending a lot of time reordering and scrambling and adjusting the things that aren't really influencing the problem (I'd like to see how the unreachable goal of attaining red robe status is keeping blue robes from competing with each other), which is time doing something other than what the closing of Tuluk is representing.  In other words...we're shutting down Tuluk to allow staff more time to do these things, but a lot of that time is also being spent making sweeping changes against things that are, in the end, only influencing things as much as staff lets them in the first place.  A red robe doesn't interfere unless a staff member chooses for them to interfere.  A senior noble doesn't pull strings for a noble unless the staff chooses for them to.  There isn't a hidden protection in the social hierarchy that is preventing PC to PC conflict, in its current state.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 16, 2015, 01:15:17 AM

Quote-- Flattening of IC power structures to facilitate PC-to-PC conflict (no Red Robes, no senior nobles)

I'd missed this, mostly because I'd read it and assumed it was just more of the same glass ceiling discussion.  However, it now occurs that this is a massive overhaul in progress, and with Tuluk now announced as gone, that means you're planning on doing this same overhaul you tried to do in Tuluk, but now in the social structure that has remained stable and conducive to the role of the game.

I'm curious why there seems to be this obsession with this idea, as a whole, because every time I hear about it, it makes my nose wrinkle a bit.  Equalizing social classes and limiting power structures in a totalitarian, god-king run city -really- doesn't make much sense, to me, so whenever this pops up it makes me really question why it's pushed for so hard, particularly since I don't hear anything about it actually bearing the fruit you speak of.

If this is just more of the same glass ceiling for PC's, disregard this.  Otherwise, I'd kind of like to know why things that aren't broken are being fixed in your eyes, and the reversal in my eyes.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.

This statement by Talia is not about changing anything IC. It's about the playable role. It's about red robes and senior nobles not being playable roles, it is indeed the 'glass ceiling' as you mentioned. Talia's post was a compilation of various things that are in place in the game at this time. Not necessarily a list of things that we are suddenly planning on implementing/changing.

There's no modifying and scrambling. The IC ranks exist and aren't going anywhere.

Quote from: Adhira on April 16, 2015, 01:33:59 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on April 16, 2015, 01:15:17 AM

Quote-- Flattening of IC power structures to facilitate PC-to-PC conflict (no Red Robes, no senior nobles)

I'd missed this, mostly because I'd read it and assumed it was just more of the same glass ceiling discussion.  However, it now occurs that this is a massive overhaul in progress, and with Tuluk now announced as gone, that means you're planning on doing this same overhaul you tried to do in Tuluk, but now in the social structure that has remained stable and conducive to the role of the game.

I'm curious why there seems to be this obsession with this idea, as a whole, because every time I hear about it, it makes my nose wrinkle a bit.  Equalizing social classes and limiting power structures in a totalitarian, god-king run city -really- doesn't make much sense, to me, so whenever this pops up it makes me really question why it's pushed for so hard, particularly since I don't hear anything about it actually bearing the fruit you speak of.

If this is just more of the same glass ceiling for PC's, disregard this.  Otherwise, I'd kind of like to know why things that aren't broken are being fixed in your eyes, and the reversal in my eyes.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.

This statement by Talia is not about changing anything IC. It's about the playable role. It's about red robes and senior nobles not being playable roles, it is indeed the 'glass ceiling' as you mentioned. Talia's post was a compilation of various things that are in place in the game at this time. Not necessarily a list of things that we are suddenly planning on implementing/changing.

Ah, good.  See, that's how I previously understood it.  The...ahem...events, made me wonder if it was a sweeping change across the board to the entire structure of things.  Thank you for clearing it up.  I don't like the glass ceiling, but still find it easy to play around, while as the other I wouldn't be.  Thank you for clarifying for me.

Playing a character in Tuluk, right now, is the most difficult thing I have done, on so many levels, with any of my Armageddon lives.  The fact that it will end shortly, one way or another, is the only plus.  Not complaining just telling you how it is for me.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 16, 2015, 01:35:41 AM
Ah, good.  See, that's how I previously understood it.  The...ahem...events, made me wonder if it was a sweeping change across the board to the entire structure of things.  Thank you for clearing it up.  I don't like the glass ceiling, but still find it easy to play around, while as the other I wouldn't be.  Thank you for clarifying for me.

Sorry, yeah, I was referring to things that are already in game and have been for a few years. I wasn't just thinking of the fact that Red Robes and senior nobles are no longer playable roles, I was also thinking about things like--often, players will ask for their superiors of whatever rank to intervene, and a lot of the time we remain hands-off and wait for PC to PC conflict to play out instead. (Because there's very little that PCs are doing that should really get their bosses' attention.) It's both an IC thing and an OOC thing; just a general policy of letting the game happen at the playable level instead of way up in the stratosphere beyond the ability of PCs to affect.

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 11:11:02 PM

Quote
How do you guys see this affecting the northlands in regards to PC play?

This depends on a lot of variables, so it would be hard to say...I know this is pretty generic, but the question is pretty broad, and relies heavily on what PCs actually do.

To be fair I think it also relies more so on what staff does at this point beyond X-tribe and Y-loner ranger / witch.

Is whatever outpost that's planned to be in the north going to be there and open prior to Tuluk's closure? Or are people in the north going to be left in limbo for a bit after Tuluk closes.

If 'left in limbo' means having awesome refugee roleplay and player interaction, I want to be left in limbo.

Why would there be refugee roleplay when Tuluk is still technically there? The whole thing is just awkward. "Left in limbo" refers to not having a place to hang out, get a drink, stable your mount, enjoy some law enforced areas yet there's an entire city state just sitting there.

we don't know what will happen.

that's what's so exciting

Quote from: shpadoinkle on April 16, 2015, 12:49:59 PM
Why would there be refugee roleplay when Tuluk is still technically there? The whole thing is just awkward. "Left in limbo" refers to not having a place to hang out, get a drink, stable your mount, enjoy some law enforced areas yet there's an entire city state just sitting there.

Why would there be? Maybe there will be a rpt. Maybe there will be significant ic reasons for a portion of the population to flee Tuluk. We don't know yet, that's the thing. I certainly hope it's not a situation where everyone will have a bland reason to leave the gates and instantly migrate to Luirs for some fantastic tavern and stable roleplay. I don't know.

edit: what laura said, I'm trying to be hopeful

Quote from: LauraMars on April 16, 2015, 12:52:39 PM
we don't know what will happen.

that's what's so exciting

This.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 15, 2015, 04:08:07 AM
Man, listen, Allanak is about to become so very real. Not that it wasn't before, but ... man. All of this manpower filling the ranks of the various clans. Maybe membership in a Noble House will carry that "I got in!" feeling again. Tor bustles with officers. Fale is able to fill out it's bardic complement. Oashi Elites become a playable group again, perhaps. Everyone craves the luxurious Amber lifestyle of the Borsail Wyverns. Imagine a couple more Noble Houses opening, to further fray the political scene.

People filling and craving these roles is what has been the problem. Consolidation is a perfect solution to the issue. Rather than having two half-staffed/played political factions, you now have the one, vibrant and alive locale.

I'm am so, so for this. I'll miss Tuluk too, in a way. After all, I helped liberate it. But ... no, Allanak is where it's always been at, and where it always will be at. I'm so in. GMHs won't suffer at all. Someone suggested that some of the play for GMHs involved going from city to city. Trust me when I say this - most GMH players are just fine staying in one place, and traveling somewhere to visit. They mostly hate re-stationing.

Armageddon was never as rich to me as it was before Tuluk opened, when Allanak was the lone metropolitan option. I've got a feeling most of you will understand this in the coming months.

This! I completely agree with more players in the same area it allows for a much richer and more vibrant experience.  I know this sucks for a lot of people. I am having store myself but I think it will make the game better in the long run. Your much likely to get those odd roles everyone wants i.e slaves, house guard, and so on. Also the social status  between the variously positions for commoners is going to mean more with more players in the same city. Leaders will be able to be more picky about who they hire, the RP bar will get raised. All of which are good things.

Quote from: shpadoinkle on April 16, 2015, 12:49:59 PM
Why would there be refugee roleplay when Tuluk is still technically there? The whole thing is just awkward. "Left in limbo" refers to not having a place to hang out, get a drink, stable your mount, enjoy some law enforced areas yet there's an entire city state just sitting there.

Think of it this way.

The current characters in Tuluk dont know whats coming, what could send them away.

This alone is going to send multiple chars down different routes and that alone will create a chain reaction of new plots, new adventures.

These characters are undergoing a huge change, they're going to be pushed out of comfort zones, and pushed to adapting to new things.

Its an epic way to start an epic story. I don't think the characters will be stuck in limbo! Embrace change in RP, because characters themselves, are always changing-  thats what I think

Unless you happen to be out of town on the weekend your hometown changes dramatically, leaving you with the dubious prospect of having to RP reacting to a life-changing event you don't really have any solid information on  :-\

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 16, 2015, 06:13:09 PM
Unless you happen to be out of town on the weekend your hometown changes dramatically, leaving you with the dubious prospect of having to RP reacting to a life-changing event you don't really have any solid information on  :-\

I'd say try to get in touch with staff. See if they can help, if you haven't already!

Nah, fuck it. I'm just going to guilt trip them into giving me awesome stat rolls on my next character.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 16, 2015, 06:15:22 PM
Nah, fuck it. I'm just going to guilt trip them into giving me awesome stat rolls on my next character.

The sad thing is that I'm actually trying to save the character with the shittiest stats I've ever had on any characters I've played in my 10+ years Arm career.

Holy shit! I leave for a few months and everything falls to fucking pieces.

I will reserve judgement for now.

WP's edit: Sorry if I came off harsh or uncaring. I forgot how high emotions can run around here. Just jokes. I love you all.

One thing the faqs aren't too clear about is that it says we can still play tuluki ex-pats somewhere else. Rathustra also recommended that as an option. I read the whole thread and might have missed it but does that mean we'll be able to still make characters with tuluki tattoos at creation and perhaps point to luirs or somewhere else?

Quote from: Dresan on April 17, 2015, 09:21:13 AM
One thing the faqs aren't too clear about is that it says we can still play tuluki ex-pats somewhere else. Rathustra also recommended that as an option. I read the whole thread and might have missed it but does that mean we'll be able to still make characters with tuluki tattoos at creation and perhaps point to luirs or somewhere else?

Yep! You'll be born in Tuluk but playing in a different region.

I'm weird and of limited experience, but I didn't find the two cities that much different to play in. Different, but not so much that it really affected my playing experience very much! But then, I've only ever played irrelevant, forgettable nobodies.

A consolidated playerbase sounds good though! I like the idea of rare roles seeming rarer, and regular folks like me being more regular.

Quote from: In Dreams on April 17, 2015, 12:35:06 PM
I'm weird and of limited experience, but I didn't find the two cities that much different to play in. Different, but not so much that it really affected my playing experience very much! But then, I've only ever played irrelevant, forgettable nobodies.

A consolidated playerbase sounds good though! I like the idea of rare roles seeming rarer, and regular folks like me being more regular.

I mean, really, life as a Commoner is kind of the same anywhere. Big difference was in Tuluk, you respect the Templarate out of fear for what they could do, and what you know they're capable of (but never see). In Allanak, you fear the Templarate out of respect for all the crazy shit they do and torture devices at hand. Bunch of sadists.

I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 17, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

Having seen the backend of Tuluk, you probably should have been.  However, Tuluk is nice in the sense that you won't have some random sociopath murdering you, just the establishment and its shadow artists, so, um, systematic sociopaths.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 17, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

That's because 3/4 of the Allanaki characters have maxed out sneak and hide, full footpads + black cloak clothes and are all waiting for you to leave the Gaj.

The other 1/4 of the characters are gemmed 'gikers lesbos.

So if you're not either of that category, that leaves you with being that perma whiny guy who just wants to be wuv'ed and have babies.

Which one are you!

Quote from: Decameron

Just an ordinary man, trying to do his thing in a world surrounded by mutants, abominations, monsters, and such.

Quote from: Malken on April 17, 2015, 01:02:00 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 17, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

That's because 3/4 of the Allanaki characters have maxed out sneak and hide, full footpads + black cloak clothes and are all waiting for you to leave the Gaj.

The other 1/4 of the characters are gemmed 'gikers lesbos.

So if you're not either of that category, that leaves you with being that perma whiny guy who just wants to be wuv'ed and have babies.

Which one are you!

That perma wuv who just wants to have 'full footpads' with gemmed babies, whiny guy and 'gicker lesbos. Consensual of course.

Limited edition Levy tattoos on sale now!

Edit: All the other sekrit tattoos too, actually.

Time to start hoarding Sun tattoos right?

Quote from: Jihelu on April 17, 2015, 05:10:08 PM
Time to start hoarding Sun tattoos right?

Tried. Shut down. Failed. =\

Quote from: Riev on April 17, 2015, 05:41:43 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on April 17, 2015, 05:10:08 PM
Time to start hoarding Sun tattoos right?

Tried. Shut down. Failed. =\

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU WANT TO HAVE 18 LEVY TATTOOS?"

Quote from: ShaLeah on April 17, 2015, 01:23:26 PM

Quote from: Malken on April 17, 2015, 01:02:00 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 17, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

That's because 3/4 of the Allanaki characters have maxed out sneak and hide, full footpads + black cloak clothes and are all waiting for you to leave the Gaj.

The other 1/4 of the characters are gemmed 'gikers lesbos.

So if you're not either of that category, that leaves you with being that perma whiny guy who just wants to be wuv'ed and have babies.

Which one are you!

That perma wuv who just wants to have 'full footpads' with gemmed babies, whiny guy and 'gicker lesbos. Consensual of course.

WAIT... Now I know why Allanak was never exciting for me. I never managed to run into 1 'gicker lesbo with any of my characters there.

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 17, 2015, 08:19:59 PM

Quote from: ShaLeah on April 17, 2015, 01:23:26 PM

Quote from: Malken on April 17, 2015, 01:02:00 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 17, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

That's because 3/4 of the Allanaki characters have maxed out sneak and hide, full footpads + black cloak clothes and are all waiting for you to leave the Gaj.

The other 1/4 of the characters are gemmed 'gikers lesbos.

So if you're not either of that category, that leaves you with being that perma whiny guy who just wants to be wuv'ed and have babies.

Which one are you!

That perma wuv who just wants to have 'full footpads' with gemmed babies, whiny guy and 'gicker lesbos. Consensual of course.

WAIT... Now I know why Allanak was never exciting for me. I never managed to run into 1 'gicker lesbo with any of my characters there.

PM for super sekrit gicker lesbo hangout location, 20$'s via paypal gets VIP access to the "Red Room."

Quote from: Majikal on April 17, 2015, 09:53:20 PM

Quote from: slvrmoontiger on April 17, 2015, 08:19:59 PM

Quote from: ShaLeah on April 17, 2015, 01:23:26 PM

Quote from: Malken on April 17, 2015, 01:02:00 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 17, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

That's because 3/4 of the Allanaki characters have maxed out sneak and hide, full footpads + black cloak clothes and are all waiting for you to leave the Gaj.

The other 1/4 of the characters are gemmed 'gikers lesbos.

So if you're not either of that category, that leaves you with being that perma whiny guy who just wants to be wuv'ed and have babies.

Which one are you!

That perma wuv who just wants to have 'full footpads' with gemmed babies, whiny guy and 'gicker lesbos. Consensual of course.

WAIT... Now I know why Allanak was never exciting for me. I never managed to run into 1 'gicker lesbo with any of my characters there.

PM for super sekrit gicker lesbo hangout location, 20$'s via paypal gets VIP access to the "Red Room."

(http://i.imgur.com/XS5LK.gif)

(http://www.arbuturian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/twinpeaks4a.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8g_xpqjHKU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8g_xpqjHKU) -- With this soundtrack?

This Red Room?

Because the action in Tuluk right now is giving me some seriously creepy "Twin Peaks" vibes.

Time to log in, Northerners.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 17, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
I was never really afraid for my life in Tuluk at any point (RPTs not withstanding). In Allanak, even as a fairly high-ranked PC, there was always that note of paranoia that kept things interesting.

My experience is the literal and complete opposite.  I was never safe in Tuluk.  Almost every force wanted to discreetly manipulate and destroy me.  Allanak is not quite the same so far(like you mentioned, RPTs are a different story)

I wish Tuluk was always this terrifying.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 16, 2015, 01:16:36 AM
You don't need really high ranks in 2 or 3 organizations to aspire to. You need a half dozen organizations whose members can reasonably compete with each other. That's what drives conflict and plots.

+2

I totally agree.  For me at least, in a leadership position it is much more interesting and fun to devote more time to my whole clan competing with and conspire against another organization, rather  than me personally trying to compete and conspire against PCs in my own group so that I can move up the leadership ranks.  It also still leaves open the possibility for folks who are not in leadership to aspire to take me out and move into my position.  Conspiring against another group can build coherence and common goals among the clan and make it more fun.  With Tuluk closed, I think we need even more of these other groups. More groups = more fun and more opportunity. FUN is the bottom line. 

Quote from: Eurynomos on April 18, 2015, 04:45:05 AM


Because the action in Tuluk right now is giving me some seriously creepy "Twin Peaks" vibes.

This. Seriously.

Quote from: Rokal on April 18, 2015, 06:18:53 AM

Quote from: Eurynomos on April 18, 2015, 04:45:05 AM


Because the action in Tuluk right now is giving me some seriously creepy "Twin Peaks" vibes.

This. Seriously.

Save logs for a year plox.

Quote from: Inks on April 18, 2015, 05:16:53 AM
I wish Tuluk was always this terrifying.

Tuluk was always scary. Just a lot of people don't understand the intricacies behind it. As stated in a post a few lines up I agree with that poster. Every character I ever had in Tuluk was constantly afraid of something going wrong, though on the outside they didn't show that fear. Some characters were fearful from RL events that happened to them (actual IG shit as well as some virtual stuff), the others were fearful from just understanding the city and knowing that no one is ever safe in Tuluk.

I feel that a lot of people only see the frilly and fluffy side of Tuluk and that's why most people say "Tuluk, ha I laugh at those afraid in Tuluk." If you never got to experience any real life crap in Tuluk I'm sorry. If you never understood Tuluk to realize there's always reason to be afraid I'm sorry. Perhaps these two aspects are why Tuluk never got the player love it really deserved.

Wanna know why none of my characters that go there know Tuluk?

Too scared to go walking the streets. Anything can happen.

You're seriously saying it's other people's fault they don't feel afraid in Tuluk?

Where exactly in my post did I lay blame on anyone? I was just stating a fact, nothing more. I never said anything like "You didn't figure out Tuluk so it's all your fault."  Nor would I have. I was stating I'm sorry some players never saw Tuluk for what it is.

The point, Tiger, is that people tend to take offense when someone says "No, that story was actually the best one ever told, YOU just don't understand it, Plebe."

Especially because I think I've got at least a decent grasp on Tuluk, and I was never afraid. The craziest thing that ever happened to me was when a group of elves all pulled blades on me in broad daylight, in full view of anyone around. And that happened once. I'm not saying Tuluk ISN'T scary, it just isn't as oppressive as the docs say it should be.

Like telling someone America is an oppressive state. Is it true? Maybe. But if you try telling someone it is, and they seriously don't see it, saying "Well you just don't get it" doesn't change anything.

Yeah, I agree with Riev.. As someone who's been playing Arm forever and played maybe 85% of my characters in Tuluk, I've never been "afraid". I actually enjoyed Tuluk because it was very relaxed and "easy" rp compared to what you often have to face in Allanak or elsewhere. By "easy" I don't mean understanding the society, I mean that whatever I had planned for that character usually happened the exact way I planned it, as opposed to Allanak, where you are often, if not almost always, on the edge and survival mode.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 17, 2015, 05:10:08 PM
Time to start hoarding Sun tattoos right?

>order minion subdue refugee
>ep cleaver (grabbing %refugee arm and securing it to the chopping block)
>wish all You guys ready with my hand object and this guy's missing hand tattoo?
>em grinning slyly, @ brings ~cleaver down in a solid motion, bone and flesh giving way without resistance.
>inv
You are carrying:
a few purple and blue inked hands

>Shout NEXT!

RIDE IN THE TULUK CAR FOR THE LAST TIME

(https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/cliff-gif.gif?w=635)

Quote from: Riev on April 18, 2015, 12:02:26 PM
The point, Tiger, is that people tend to take offense when someone says "No, that story was actually the best one ever told, YOU just don't understand it, Plebe."

Especially because I think I've got at least a decent grasp on Tuluk, and I was never afraid. The craziest thing that ever happened to me was when a group of elves all pulled blades on me in broad daylight, in full view of anyone around. And that happened once. I'm not saying Tuluk ISN'T scary, it just isn't as oppressive as the docs say it should be.

Like telling someone America is an oppressive state. Is it true? Maybe. But if you try telling someone it is, and they seriously don't see it, saying "Well you just don't get it" doesn't change anything.

Here's the thing.  Tuluk -is- an oppressive state, actually, both city states are.  This is explicitly mentioned in documentation and examples of it are in every corner of the game world.  It's not a matter of conjecture but a certainty.  So while your character might not perceive it as such ICly based on their experiences and beliefs, it is in fact a corrupt oligarchy replete with brainwashing.

If you played in any political landscape with those in power, Tuluk was an extremely intense centre of conflict.

Riev isn't saying that Tuluk isn't oppressive. Instead, he argues that you can't really be wrong in not feeling afraid.

Yes, Tuluk is oppressive - arguing otherwise is silly. But Riev, Malken, myself, and doubtlessly other people as well, simply feel Tuluk is safer than Allanak is.

Quote from: Patuk on April 18, 2015, 01:41:44 PM
Riev isn't saying that Tuluk isn't oppressive. Instead, he argues that you can't really be wrong in not feeling afraid.

Yes, Tuluk is oppressive - arguing otherwise is silly. But Riev, Malken, myself, and doubtlessly other people as well, simply feel Tuluk is safer than Allanak is.

I hear you.  What I'm getting at is, Tuluk seems outwardly safe, but it can only be that way because there is such an aggressive undercurrent of manipulation and control.  I found the politics in the north to be much more cutthroat despite the civil facade.

It's not that anyone is wrong about being afraid, but it is definitely 'wrong' to assume safety anywhere in Zalanthas.  It's not a safe planet at all.

I want to know when the last time all you were actually -in- Tuluk. There's been plenty to be fearful over for the last yearish.

Everything in Tuluk always seemed to happen in homage or accordance to some tradition that I'd never heard of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUJs-gdlpoU


Dunno about you guys.

But this is really fitting it for me.

Ignore the picture.

:(

Quote from: bcw81 on April 18, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
I want to know when the last time all you were actually -in- Tuluk. There's been plenty to be fearful over for the last yearish.

by plenty do you mean the two templars who log in

because the nobles can't do anything

ayyyyyyy

Quote from: bcw81 on April 18, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
I want to know when the last time all you were actually -in- Tuluk. There's been plenty to be fearful over for the last yearish.

Have played for a few months. Was only scared on the first day, and in the last 30 minutes. Rest of the time was EZ mode

Though to be fair, scheduling prevented me from attending most of the big RPTs, and the ones I did get to were too fun to be scary.

Quote from: bcw81 on April 18, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
I want to know when the last time all you were actually -in- Tuluk. There's been plenty to be fearful over for the last yearish.

Like an hour ago.

Last time I was in Tuluk one of the guys stole my mount ticket and i never went back because i hate pcickpoets

Tuluk terrified me because I happen to use certain coded roleplay aides even in tense, dodgy or dangerous situations... Which meant I was almost always nearly disappeared afterwards, or robbed of my gorgeous loot piles. Allanak? Pffft. Not scary. Nobody ever cornered me in Allanak with 10 NPC half-giant soldiers and stole 45,000 Sid and a set of horror shell armor off me. Maybe it was my fault for Roleplaying too much.

CAPITALISM, HO!


sell sleeves
sell sleeves
sell sleeves

I like both cities about equally well, but the majority of my playing time has been in Allanak. Tuluk more than delivered on some intense moments of paranoia, particularly with one of my characters. Of course I had some dull times in both cities, too, but I never found either to be lacking, on the whole.

The only problem with Nak is that if I want to be a special snowflake magicker everyone hates me unless I can put out.


AND I AIN'T WILLIN TO BE A WOMAN.
AND I AIN'T WILLIN TO ACT LIKE ONE.
Or something like that.
(Just so someone doesn't reply to this all mad that I think all women pc's get an easy life this is because of the fancy story I read earlier about the female magicker pc thing and I thought it was funny, pls no replyerino)

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 18, 2015, 05:44:29 PM
CAPITALISM, HO!


sell sleeves
sell sleeves
sell sleeves

i think i posted in the wrong thread again

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 18, 2015, 05:53:44 PM

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 18, 2015, 05:44:29 PM
CAPITALISM, HO!


sell sleeves
sell sleeves
sell sleeves

i think i posted in the wrong thread again

Either way it works.

Quote from: LauraMars on April 18, 2015, 01:26:56 PM
RIDE IN THE TULUK CAR FOR THE LAST TIME

(https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/cliff-gif.gif?w=635)

Haha. Ha. Haaaaa. :( Crying.

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 18, 2015, 02:15:41 PM
Everything in Tuluk always seemed to happen in homage or accordance to some tradition that I'd never heard of.

I don't mean this in a mean way, but if you didn't feel endangered in Tuluk, your PC probably wasn't that "involved" or moving-and-shaking.  It can be easy to fly under the radar if you don't do things that catch notice.

People tried (And did) involve my PC quite heavily and early and I found it vaguely annoying. Certainly not scary.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2015, 06:29:51 PM
People tried (And did) involve my PC quite heavily and early and I found it vaguely annoying. Certainly not scary.

How dare they involve you in plot.  Assholes.

Places in plots are something you earn, not something you should be given.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2015, 06:35:35 PM
Places in plots are something you earn, not something you should be given.

Especially when the plots are following people and sitting around doing nothing.
LOOKING AT YOU MILITARY!
Then again I guess i signed up for it.

I'm pretty sure I've only visited Tuluk three times in the two to three years I've been playing, and all ventures made were on the same character; one trip due to Byn activities, one trip due to the affairs of a PC group I had joined, and the last as a fugitive of Allanak.

Now, although surprisingly long-lived (depending on your personal definition) and technically my third, this character was the one I consider to be my first. Not knowing anything about Tuluk aided me greatly in roleplaying an oblivious hick from Allanak. I'll always remember the time I walked into the Sanctuary covered in blood and shit, wearing my brown aba, and being quietly pulled aside and asked to leave by His Faithful, with the ensuing bow closing the small and easily forgettable scene.

Tuluk provided an interesting dynamic for the game. So... while I keep dismissing it with some earnest amount of joy at the thought of a consolidated playerbase, the scene above is a fond memory of mine. It's simple, short, and always there... lingering. All of my characters have been from Allanak (every single one), and a reason I did that was to keep the city a constant mystery so I could genuinely be surprised by the encounters I had up there should one of my characters take to traveling.

I might miss Tuluk a lil bit, actually.                         

inviting badskeelz to a plot like:
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20150418/5199017/bad-o.gif)

it's too hard to get involved in plots in tuluk

being involved in plots is annoying

which is it people

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 18, 2015, 07:42:56 PM
it's too hard to get involved in plots in tuluk

being involved in plots is annoying

which is it people

Neither.
Because Tuluk won't exist soon.
-Ohhhhh-.
Though it really depends. I don't think I've ever complained about plots, maybe for magickers or something, because it seems 'easy' enough to go find someone I kind of know, be like "Yo lets do this" and what not.
Or I'll have a 'quest' I don't have to do stored away and I just won't do it because lazy.

At first I thought this was a stupid announcement and a stupid change.

However, now that there is proper IC reasons it's all happening and shit is about to get more real then a steel-spiked war argosy with titanium wheels pulled by two stone-plated battle mekillots ridden by black robe templars.

Let's get it fucking on.

too rEAL. TOO REAL.

It's too bad about Tuluk, but I guess that no-one wants to save them from the beast about to strike.

are you trying to invite me to a fucking plot you fucking scrub

I'm just saying, it seems like the midnight hour is close at hand for Tuluk.

Please reference the original post in terms of pointing fingers and going 'neener neener neener'.

Stay on topic, which is, discussing Tuluk closing without being an asshat.

After reflection, I think that what I liked about Tuluk was not so much the location, but rather the diverse options for roles that existed there only, or if they did exist elsewhere, in a more limited form.

This has been mentioned before in this thread,  yet I want to mention it again.  There are soooo many cool things which are a part of Arm, which were specific to Tuluk.  One of these things was Dasari, and their emphasis on botany and Zalanthan Science.  Another was bards and the arts. A third was the style of Tuluki Templars.  I have always found Tuluki Templars Rp very compelling and FUN. Although some of the new Templars in Allanak are also very good, and.

I hope that these things will somehow continue to exist in Arm in a way that is playable, not just virtual.  I have been itching to play in Dasari since they were reopened. I urge staff to conserve these aspects of the game, which were FUN.  I have seen lots of new things happening in Allanak, and they are great! I hope we can see more, which will include some of the aspects mentioned in this post.

It may be premature or simply impossible to say OOC, yet I wonder if staff can say if some of these things I have mentioned will be found in greater measure in the southlands, in the coming time?  Although I am reluctant to see Tuluk go, if staff feel that it will increase FUN for all, then I trust and support the decision, for what that is worth anyway.

And for the record, my respect and kudos to some of the great players  of Tuluki Templars, Nobles (especially a certain florid portly fellow) and their entourage I have had the pleasure of playing with in the recent past.

Cheers

What about Lyksae? I've seen some pretty awesome ones, and I've always wanted to try and at least interact with more of them. Kudos to the Lyksae PCs!

Mmm. Lyksae's...... Yum. Vegas wedding people!! Err I mean, Luir's wedding people!!

Quote from: Norcal on April 19, 2015, 05:20:51 AM
After reflection, I think that what I liked about Tuluk was not so much the location, but rather the diverse options for roles that existed there only, or if they did exist elsewhere, in a more limited form.

This has been mentioned before in this thread,  yet I want to mention it again.  There are soooo many cool things which are a part of Arm, which were specific to Tuluk.  One of these things was Dasari, and their emphasis on botany and Zalanthan Science.  Another was bards and the arts. A third was the style of Tuluki Templars.  I have always found Tuluki Templars Rp very compelling and FUN. Although some of the new Templars in Allanak are also very good, and.

I hope that these things will somehow continue to exist in Arm in a way that is playable, not just virtual.  I have been itching to play in Dasari since they were reopened. I urge staff to conserve these aspects of the game, which were FUN.  I have seen lots of new things happening in Allanak, and they are great! I hope we can see more, which will include some of the aspects mentioned in this post.

It may be premature or simply impossible to say OOC, yet I wonder if staff can say if some of these things I have mentioned will be found in greater measure in the southlands, in the coming time?  Although I am reluctant to see Tuluk go, if staff feel that it will increase FUN for all, then I trust and support the decision, for what that is worth anyway.

And for the record, my respect and kudos to some of the great players  of Tuluki Templars, Nobles (especially a certain florid portly fellow) and their entourage I have had the pleasure of playing with in the recent past.

Cheers

I would highly suggest you send such players kudos when you have the chance - calling them out on the forums tends to get overlooked or just missed. ;)

I just want to say I applaud the staff on this difficult decision.  Closing Tuluk couldn't have been easy, but they're doing it for the right reason.  Often you see games make decisions like this in reaction player numbers, but that is purely reactionary.  In this case the staff recognized that the game can't really from a staffing side support this much scope and frankly I think I couldn't agree more, as hard as it is. 

Didn't want that City State anyway.

I want to post my opinions on the plot as it stands at the moment -- what I think is good and what I think is not as good -- but it would be full of spoilers.   ???

Quote from: Erythil on April 19, 2015, 03:24:45 PM
I want to post my opinions on the plot as it stands at the moment -- what I think is good and what I think is not as good -- but it would be full of spoilers.   ???

Just gotta wait a year.

Quote from: Erythil on April 19, 2015, 03:24:45 PM
I want to post my opinions on the plot as it stands at the moment -- what I think is good and what I think is not as good -- but it would be full of spoilers.   ???

I think you could do that through the request tool, if the purpose is to just talk to staff about it.  I think it'd be neat to have an option on the request something like "Let us know what you think about..." - a place we can tell staff about our experience as PCs in area/clan X, with plot X, etc. in terms of playability - what went right, what could make it better, what might make it worse, etc.  (Maybe it exists already: but this wouldn't be a staff complaint or kudos nor really a question - and it'd avoid the ... um ... demogoguery that happens via a post on the gdb.)

I never cared for Tuluk, but at least it kept the bards and tailors out of Allanak....  Better up the capacity of the bar at the Gaj...

Quote from: nauta on April 19, 2015, 04:07:48 PM

Quote from: Erythil on April 19, 2015, 03:24:45 PM
I want to post my opinions on the plot as it stands at the moment -- what I think is good and what I think is not as good -- but it would be full of spoilers.   ???

I think you could do that through the request tool, if the purpose is to just talk to staff about it.  I think it'd be neat to have an option on the request something like "Let us know what you think about..." - a place we can tell staff about our experience as PCs in area/clan X, with plot X, etc. in terms of playability - what went right, what could make it better, what might make it worse, etc.  (Maybe it exists already: but this wouldn't be a staff complaint or kudos nor really a question - and it'd avoid the ... um ... demogoguery that happens via a post on the gdb.)

A question request would be fine for that.  As with all requests, brevity is preferable.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on April 19, 2015, 05:08:33 PM
I never cared for Tuluk, but at least it kept the bards and tailors out of Allanak....  Better up the capacity of the bar at the Gaj...

This is actually hilariously relevant.

Or we can get used to the idea of using other tables.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 19, 2015, 05:53:20 PM

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on April 19, 2015, 05:08:33 PM
I never cared for Tuluk, but at least it kept the bards and tailors out of Allanak....  Better up the capacity of the bar at the Gaj...

This is actually hilariously relevant.

Or we can get used to the idea of using other tables.

Wouldn't Tuluki types be more comfortable in Red's anyway?  And it has more rooms...

This thread seems to be veering in the direction of discussion of actual, in-progress plot points. Let's please not do that.

The only Tuluki anythings to really have a place in the Red's are merchants with some clout, IMO.

Quote from: Patuk on April 19, 2015, 07:07:34 PM
The only Tuluki anythings to really have a place in the Red's are merchants with some clout, IMO.

Reds != Trader's.  A noticeable step down from such.

 Tuluki Gathering Place: West end of Meleth's Circle.... just saying.  ;)

More like the 'rinth...for about five minutes.

Sorrry if I am bringing up points that were already discussed but a few things occurred to me.  This potentially really sucks for the game in some ways.

1> Tuluk is a safe haven location in the north where you can rent apartments, get food and water and avoid death.  Without it this makes traveling that far north a really dangerous prospect, now your nearest safe place is probably luirs while the npcs in that area are really fierce.  Anything east of tuluk that is a raw material is going to become very scarce, expensive and gameplay in that region is going to be artificially rare.  Same for the grey. 

2> Because of reason one, role play in certain areas are likely to dry up or become much more difficult to do.  Are we closing northern tribes, desert elves too?  Because now they're nearest place for city play is Luirs which has it's own issues I'll bring up.  Sure there is blackwing post, but that place is probably going to see less love as suddenly non desert pcs will have to travel there from Allanak.

3> Luirs is not set up to be a replacement for Tuluk in terms of pc population.  Without a place to rent you can't live there you can only visit.  This means people who can't reliably travel on their own are going to be stuck playing in the south.

4> I realize a big part of this is to shift the heat map (place where players play and interact) to the south, but the result I think is going to be far more punishing than realized.  I think this is going to cut off a vast portion of the game to being viable than ever before.

I'm not opposed to the change, but I don't think the world is ready for it.  I think more pc settlements like red storm at least need to exist.  They provide the benefit of pc save haven without the staff overhead.

Just my two cents.

There should be apartments in Luir's, or shouldn't there be?

But I think Luir's is not set as a replacement for Tuluk, at least that is not the intention of the staff.

1)  This is a good thing.  It should not be safe to travel.
2)  Are we closing northern tribes?  No.
3)  Yes, we expect more people to be playing in Allanak for city and political roleplay, and in other places for more off-the-beaten-path roleplay in outposts.
4)  We've said we want to do more stuff with outposts.

Quote from: deskoft on April 20, 2015, 10:07:58 AM
But I think Luir's is not set as a replacement for Tuluk, at least that is not the intention of the staff.

If Luir's becomes Tuluk, then this change closed Luirs, not Tuluk.  Which is to say, I doubt that was the intent.

It's been mentioned numerous times in the thread that there will be some sort of outpost/trading camp in the north.

First off, last time I checked apartments in Tuluk were only able to be rented by Tuluki citizens, so your basis of people renting an apartment and living there or having a place to go to when they wanted to leave Allanak for a while is completely untrue.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Tuluk offers a lot of raw materials and styles and items that cannot be found anywhere else in the world, this causes people to want to travel to obtain different materials, learn, and explore. Shutting off Tuluk (even if a trading camp is set up) has the possibilities of causing people not to have the desire to travel to the north. This may or may not have the possibility of killing trade in Luir's.

I'm not sure what is meant by Roleplay in Luir's is already artificial. Are there times of the day that you can roam Luir's and not find a single PC to talk to? Sure, but that happened in Tuluk as well and it happens in Allanak also, that's the nature of things. Gameplay everywhere in the world is most prevalent between 6pm and 2am on Weekdays and it varies on weekend, that's the nature of things. People have jobs, life, school, etc and at night is usually the best time to play. If you play outside these hours I'm sure you're going to have troubles finding other PCs to interact with no matter where you are in the world, even after Tuluk closes I'm sure this will continue to be the case.

I'm saddened by the changes because I love Tuluk and it has been my normal place of play until Staff started telling me I had to play elsewhere because I was playing in Tuluk too much. This pushed me out the door and allowed me to explore other places to play and I've been enjoying that. So I'm not going to stop playing just because Tuluk isn't playable anymore. I will work within the system because there really isn't a MUD out there that meets my wants and desires (trust me I've looked time and time again). I'm hoping things improve in Luir's and it gets some more love, however apartments in Luir's is not the answer. Luir's is a trading post. Trading post means you come, you trade, you go home. To build apartments in Luir's would just cause problems and issues that have no place there and make things fake.

Still in a bit of disbelief that this is real. I'm excited to see what happens. There are certain clans that become very appealing if there's 1-2 more people in them.

Quote from: Nyr on April 20, 2015, 10:11:00 AM
1)  This is a good thing.  It should not be safe to travel.
2)  Are we closing northern tribes?  No.
3)  Yes, we expect more people to be playing in Allanak for city and political roleplay, and in other places for more off-the-beaten-path roleplay in outposts.
4)  We've said we want to do more stuff with outposts.

Talk about wrapped up neatly.  I figured I probably missed out on some pertinent information.

Frankly number four alone calms my nerves.

Quote from: Xalle

You glorious bastard.

This is probably a little late, but, uh, who were we supposed to address our "After Tuluk Plans" requests to?  ???

I sent mine in to Tuluki Nobles but I'm no longer sure whether that was the correct bucket. It can be cancelled at this point, I've stormed up a few on my own or with Rathustra in the TeamSpeak, but I was wondering if anyone else has misfiled theirs.

There seems to be this idea that everyone who went north of Luir's ever step foot inside Tuluk.
False assumption.

Some players and characters made it a point to avoid Tuluk for reasons that staff seems to have either fixed or at least curbed in the the Tuluk revamp.
Some players and many characters simply had reasons to hunt, greb, conspire in the north without needing Tuluk to do so.
I highly doubt the grey/grasslands/scrub will be dead areas just because a relatively small block of rooms is closed off.


Personal thoughts: Any player who have never given truly city-free or city-light roles a try is really missing out.
You'd be surprised how hard it is to play a hermit or explorer in ANY area of the Known or beyond without encountering other PCs on a regular basis.
Though this seems to be a problem in !citybars?

Also you run across a lot of dead bodies and get rich quick.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 20, 2015, 09:24:07 PM
Also you run across a lot of dead bodies and get rich quick.

Can be very true... unless you plan for this, then it never happens. :D

Regular pcs at Red's! Can you imagine it?

Just throwing it out there...

Please don't throw it out there.  It's an IC thing and all of the info getting out about it is pretty much incorrect anyway in terms of scope or veracity.  Please wait until this can be discussed.  -Nyr

If you are mentioning something happening IC, then no, do not throw it out there.  We'll be able to discuss it more once there is something available publicly.  Until then, please do not engage in the throwing of things.

es thing
throw thing nyr east

Quote from: Erythil on April 19, 2015, 03:24:45 PM
I want to post my opinions on the plot as it stands at the moment -- what I think is good and what I think is not as good -- but it would be full of spoilers.   ???

Send me a request and I'll respond personally.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 21, 2015, 12:06:05 PM
Send me a request and I'll respond personally.

What kind of request exactly would be best to get this to you?  I have some thoughts as well.

Quote from: wizturbo on April 21, 2015, 01:51:19 PM

Quote from: Rathustra on April 21, 2015, 12:06:05 PM
Send me a request and I'll respond personally.

What kind of request exactly would be best to get this to you?  I have some thoughts as well.

Question request, CC'd to Tuluki Templars.

I would personally discourage players from crossing the line into ridiculousness when trying to cater to Tuluki PCs.

Wholesale slaughter isn't required to make them feel uncomfortable and afraid - they shouldn't be fleeing a despotic city just to land in the (even just outwardly) warm embrace of Allanak. IMO they should be fleeing one despotic city for another choice that's just barely less terrible than remaining where they were. Immediately rolling them into your society with open arms because of OOC considerations seems like falling a little too far over the line of believability, and I hope not to see (m)any examples of that in-game.

/emote paces on the outside, waiting to get back in.

Quote from: Delirium on April 21, 2015, 02:05:25 PM
I would personally discourage players from crossing the line into ridiculousness when trying to cater to Tuluki PCs.

Wholesale slaughter isn't required to make them feel uncomfortable and afraid - they shouldn't be fleeing a despotic city just to land in the (even just outwardly) warm embrace of Allanak. IMO they should be fleeing one despotic city for another choice that's just barely less terrible than remaining where they were. Immediately rolling them into your society with open arms because of OOC considerations seems like falling a little too far over the line of believability, and I hope not to see (m)any examples of that in-game.

Is it really that bad? That doesn't sound like our player base. I mean, shit, I PKed a day old PC who had the misfortune of creating a nothern-origin character (inks included) in Allanak right after one of the big war RPTs, on a Templar's order. I think he was one of my dead clanmates, too...

Remember Allanakis, them Tulukis am here to take are jerbs! Exclusion and hostility are the order of the day in Zalanthas.

Quote from: Delirium on April 21, 2015, 02:05:25 PM
I would personally discourage players from crossing the line into ridiculousness when trying to cater to Tuluki PCs.

Wholesale slaughter isn't required to make them feel uncomfortable and afraid - they shouldn't be fleeing a despotic city just to land in the (even just outwardly) warm embrace of Allanak. IMO they should be fleeing one despotic city for another choice that's just barely less terrible than remaining where they were. Immediately rolling them into your society with open arms because of OOC considerations seems like falling a little too far over the line of believability, and I hope not to see (m)any examples of that in-game.

Please do not assume that examples you see of "Tuluki welcoming" in-game are at all related to OOC motivations.  I know it's only logical to worry about this sort of thing, but from my experiences lately there has been absolutely zero pressure from staff to give these PC's special treatment.  If you're wondering why there aren't Tuluki refugees strung up outside of Red's Retreat, look to purely IC reasons, and you'll find answers.

Love this change especially since it's not just disappearing. I love Tuluk I do but recently the player base had been spread thin. This change will spark more political and tribal role play than its taking away. Good job.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 21, 2015, 02:23:26 PM

Quote from: Delirium on April 21, 2015, 02:05:25 PM
I would personally discourage players from crossing the line into ridiculousness when trying to cater to Tuluki PCs.

Wholesale slaughter isn't required to make them feel uncomfortable and afraid - they shouldn't be fleeing a despotic city just to land in the (even just outwardly) warm embrace of Allanak. IMO they should be fleeing one despotic city for another choice that's just barely less terrible than remaining where they were. Immediately rolling them into your society with open arms because of OOC considerations seems like falling a little too far over the line of believability, and I hope not to see (m)any examples of that in-game.

Is it really that bad? That doesn't sound like our player base. I mean, shit, I PKed a day old PC who had the misfortune of creating a nothern-origin character (inks included) in Allanak right after one of the big war RPTs, on a Templar's order. I think he was one of my dead clanmates, too...

Remember Allanakis, them Tulukis am here to take are jerbs! Exclusion and hostility are the order of the day in Zalanthas.

With that sort of dumb attitude, I wish there was another city I could play aside from Allanak. OH WAIT. THERE ISN'T. Let's all make cookie cutter Allanaki Tektolnes worshippers, that'll be great fun.

Why not put a black gem on Tuluki's neck while we're at it, THEY ARE ABOMINATIONS BORN WITH THE WRONG ACCENT.

Staff, I think the closing of Tuluk has lasted long enough, I don't like playing with players who find any sort of stupid ass reasons to PK your PC acceptable, which is why I've always hated playing in Allanak to begin with. Re-open Tuluk plz.

Badskeelz is stating an extreme example that is extremely rare in Allanak. That sort of thing doesn't generally happen. I don't know why Templars order people to kill random blatantly-newly-rolled-in PCs, but that's really not very nice of them to do that.


Also somewhere in the helpfiles there's something about people being mean and shit like that and something about getting over it.

Quote from: Saellyn on April 21, 2015, 03:28:24 PM
Badskeelz is stating an extreme example that is extremely rare in Allanak. That sort of thing doesn't generally happen. I don't know why Templars order people to kill random blatantly-newly-rolled-in PCs, but that's really not very nice of them to do that.


Also somewhere in the helpfiles there's something about people being mean and shit like that and something about getting over it.

Yeah, I found it.

Quote3. Sometimes people are retarded. There are no rules against being extremely retarded to others that your character may meet, be it retarded cheating, retarded stealing, retarded killing, retarded swindling, or otherwise making a retard out of you in turn. The sole exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined both in "help consent" and in point 6, below.

If they're trying to kill you, ally yourself with their enemies and see what happens.

There was a war on, Malken. (Still is, as far as I know?) We were under no obligation to allow an enemy alien to continue stealing His Air.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 21, 2015, 03:36:23 PM
There was a war on, Malken. (Still is, as far as I know?) We were under no obligation to allow an enemy alien to continue stealing His Air.

That's why you beat the shit out of him, rob him blind then kick him out with a knife, a gourd of half piss, half water and tell him to never come back.

That at least gives a new character a semi chance of survival without just PK'ing him. That's me, though. I'd probably make a shitty Templar with that sort of attitude.

@ Malken, The one benefit Northerner's have in the South over Southerner's is we are already predispositioned to be more cooperative, based on the type of atmosphere Tuluk formerly was. This coupled with the fact that we are now displaced refugees should bond us farther. In all honesty Southern Pc's should be far more wary of Northerners right now then they have ever been in the past. Many if not all of them have vast array's of powerful contact's looking for purpose and if that purpose is survival then maybe it's the South that should be looking over their shoulders. I have no love for Southerner's and should one follow me out of a bar, I would certainly find it amusing for them to stroll up on you in an alley only to find its exits blocked by a gang of Northerners.

Truly Northern Pc's are at a point were they could largely function in the vacuum left by the missing city elf clans. We are just as sneaky, only in our own way.

First thing is first, guys: There have always been Tulukis in Allanak, and vice versa. It's not uncommon to have refugees in either city.

Next up: Tulukis aren't the majority in the south. If they start fucking with southerners, I'd expect to see them in the arena in short order.

Quote from: Malken on April 21, 2015, 03:43:33 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 21, 2015, 03:36:23 PM
There was a war on, Malken. (Still is, as far as I know?) We were under no obligation to allow an enemy alien to continue stealing His Air.

That's why you beat the shit out of him, rob him blind then kick him out with a knife, a gourd of half piss, half water and tell him to never come back.

That at least gives a new character a semi chance of survival without just PK'ing him. That's me, though. I'd probably make a shitty Templar with that sort of attitude.

I've always been a fan of the "leave them for dead in the desert" way of disposing of your enemies because A ) I never hear from them again and B ) I don't feel bad because maybe there was a slim chance that they crawled naked to Luirs and got involved in more fun stuff.

Cept that, there is no reason at all for most Tulukis to go to nak...in fact, every reason to NOT go there...and we are not talking those in a GMH or byn, they already go back and forth.

I have absolutely nothing against Southerners being wary of sudden Northerners coming along and banging their ladies, what annoys me is that assumption that Staff are giving Northerners a free pass and are somewhat telling Southerners Higher ups to leave Northerners alone on an OOC rule of command of sort and now it's up to the valiant defenders of all that is good in Allanak to rebel against such Staff intervention and make sure that every single northerner PCs met on southern soil should be PKed in the name of Good Ol' Armageddon.

How do you know there is no reason at all for most Tulukis to go to Nak, X-D?

Not every Tuluki commoner left Tuluk people. For point of fact, most commoners probably stayed behind in Tuluk. You do not suddenly have a massive Tuluki influx of power in Allanak. You do not suddenly have enough population to fight the power. You are a small group of refugees that can (with player work) grow together and make a 'smallish' gang of PCs.

I think a lot of people are overemphasizing just how much of a diaspora this really is.

Quote from: ZuluFoxtrot on April 21, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
Not every Tuluki commoner left Tuluk people. For point of fact, most commoners probably stayed behind in Tuluk. You do not suddenly have a massive Tuluki influx of power in Allanak. You do not suddenly have enough population to fight the power. You are a small group of refugees that can (with player work) grow together and make a 'smallish' gang of PCs.

I think a lot of people are overemphasizing just how much of a diaspora this really is.

I think people are talking about an IC event, and some people are trolling and vagueposting.

Quote from: Malken on April 21, 2015, 03:54:57 PM
I have absolutely nothing against Southerners being wary of sudden Northerners coming along and banging their ladies, what annoys me is that assumption that Staff are giving Northerners a free pass and are somewhat telling Southerners Higher ups to leave Northerners alone on an OOC rule of command of sort and now it's up to the valiant defenders of all that is good in Allanak to rebel against such Staff intervention and make sure that every single northerner PCs met on southern soil should be PKed in the name of Good Ol' Armageddon.

I think you're the only one making this assumption, even if it's an assumption about an assumption. Staff have said they're not doing this and I believe them.

Oh well, Lets see here...first off, how about MAGICK...something all Tulukis are trained from birth to fear and hate above pretty much anything else. But Oh wait, that training can be overturned at a moments notice...bleh.

What else, Oh, City of essentially the eternal enemy...Barbarians with no art , corpses in the street...Yup, sounds like a perfect choice for any Tuluki.

Land of the oppresser to those that might know any history, Bowing to nobles and Templars.

Assured persecution, lack of place to live...The Gaj....Reds.....Gates that lock you in at night. Yes, I know, to a nakki this is for your safety, but I rather doubt a Tuluki would see it that way.

So, IC reasons? I can think of none. And I am not entertaining OOC reasons.

Quote from: X-D on April 21, 2015, 04:13:26 PM
Oh well, Lets see here...first off, how about MAGICK...something all Tulukis are trained from birth to fear and hate above pretty much anything else. But Oh wait, that training can be overturned at a moments notice...bleh.

What else, Oh, City of essentially the eternal enemy...Barbarians with no art , corpses in the street...Yup, sounds like a perfect choice for any Tuluki.

Land of the oppresser to those that might know any history, Bowing to nobles and Templars.

Assured persecution, lack of place to live...The Gaj....Reds.....Gates that lock you in at night. Yes, I know, to a nakki this is for your safety, but I rather doubt a Tuluki would see it that way.

So, IC reasons? I can think of none. And I am not entertaining OOC reasons.

You must not have studied human history much if you think that people will not force themselves to move from one shitty location to a shittier location if it means the difference between life or death. But again, we're almost falling back into IC stuff so I don't know what to tell you except, huh, trust the playerbase? (lulz)

Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 21, 2015, 04:09:45 PM

Quote from: Malken on April 21, 2015, 03:54:57 PM
I have absolutely nothing against Southerners being wary of sudden Northerners coming along and banging their ladies, what annoys me is that assumption that Staff are giving Northerners a free pass and are somewhat telling Southerners Higher ups to leave Northerners alone on an OOC rule of command of sort and now it's up to the valiant defenders of all that is good in Allanak to rebel against such Staff intervention and make sure that every single northerner PCs met on southern soil should be PKed in the name of Good Ol' Armageddon.

I think you're the only one making this assumption, even if it's an assumption about an assumption. Staff have said they're not doing this and I believe them.

As a player of a leader in the south, I can confirm, they have said absolutely zero about giving northerners a break to me.

I see a lot of speculating and suggestions about an on-going plot and what decisions actual PCs might take...


Maybe instead just chill the heck out and see what happens?

Huh...Human history...interesting.

So, We are playing on earth? Oh wait, I forgot, Tuluk is an all human earthling city...my bad.

Rather hard to even entertain this...since in all of human history there has never been a true, change into dragon, bury you under dirt, raze a city godking with his elementalist gemmed minions and even scarier Templars.

As to trusting the playerbase...for the most part I do. But my comment was not about the playerbase, it was about Tuluki citizens.

Now, I can see staff giving Tuluki citizens a good reason to leave Tuluk...I do not see any to go from there to nak. As just about anywhere, including a gortok den would be more enticing.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 21, 2015, 04:20:06 PM
I see a lot of speculating and suggestions about an on-going plot and what decisions actual PCs might take...


Maybe instead just chill the heck out and see what happens?

^^^ 

There is no evil staff intervention or bad role play going on here.  There's huge IC events going on, and the world is responding to them ICly, nothing more than that.  There might be odd things happening that you normally wouldn't see, but that's what big changes sometimes cause.  If you're completely OOCly shocked by some of what you're seeing, take a moment to consider the possibility that you don't have all the facts about the situation before griping on the GDB.