Tuluk Closing to PC play -- discussion thread

[ArmageddonMUD]

This thread is for discussion regarding the announcement here.  Please review it.  Per the end of that thread:

This was a difficult choice to make.  It will impact players currently playing roles in the region.  If you need to get things off of your chest, feel free to express support of the idea or to vent your frustrations within reason and remembering the rules of the GDB. However, in either case, we request that you make an effort to understand the difficulty of this decision on staff, as well as the negative impact it has on existing PCs.  Trolling, flaming, baiting, and the like will not be tolerated.

Some questions we've hopefully answered in advance:

We had our own thread about this a few months ago.  Did you steal that idea/use feedback from it/etc?
We definitely saw it, though upper-level discussion had begun prior to that.  There are some similarities between suggestions there and what we are actually doing, and there are arguments made there that were also made staff-side.  For instance, the investment of many players and staff into the area over the years is something that was debated and considered heavily.  We also brought up the sunk-cost fallacy, I believe.  Our discussions mostly centered around the impact to staff and next the impact to players--balancing the current paradigm and its future vs what we saw as a more sustainable and enjoyable experience for both sides.

Why didn't you ask the playerbase about this?
Some things we could probably ask about in advance and get feedback, and we've requested feedback in some areas in the past.  We did not think this was one of those things.  Even asking could exacerbate the problems we are hoping to address.  For what it's worth, the informal player poll (though proposed by players and not by staff) did give the opportunity for players to offer feedback and their ideas and what they saw from their side.

Tuluk is doing well.  Why do this now?
The most simple answer is that Tuluk has always existed as a place for players to play in, therefore it has always been seen as a place that needed to be staffed, needed to be improved, and needed to be played in.  We have done many things to attempt to stay ahead there, and one of the few things we haven't tried is "just not letting people play there/staff there" and no longer spend time working on it, freeing up staff to work in areas that find more player interest.

How will this help with staffing?
Consolidated players means consolidated staff.  We sometimes duplicate efforts for code and building because if it exists in one city, it must exist in the other in some fashion.  If Allanak has a staff-sponsored plot and Tuluk does not, this breeds resentment as both are put forth as "equals" in terms of staff support IC.  If we remove one from the equation, we halve the work needed for larger plots related to a city-state and have freed up staff resources to work in other areas...or we could simply increase the level of plot-focused activity in that city-state.

Why not just get more staff?
We plan to do so.  We'd prefer to be at current staffing levels (or higher) even with one city-state being unplayed by players.  Having fewer areas needing DIRECT staff oversight means that we can better weather the times when we have staffing shortfalls without adversely affecting the team we do have or the players that we want to assist.

Why not close Allanak?
Allanak has largely been more static and unchanging than Tuluk.  This doesn't mean that it can't be improved or won't be changed.  Allanak is easier to staff than Tuluk, it is more recognizable as a Zalanthan entity, and it rarely has issues with players (or staffers) simply not liking it.  We want to make that city better; the benefits of investing in it are more recognizable for us.

Why not do this IC?
This is already a fairly drastic change.  We are confident that this will be for the betterment of the game, but we also don't want to leave ourselves without a way to undo what was done.  If it does not work or improve things, we can simply undo what we did.  An IC change (nuking it) would not be something that could be undone.  Other types of IC changes (occupation) would require significant staffing resources devoted to both sides of the equation, with the only result being that someone "won" the war IC.

Will you really reevaluate the reopening of Tuluk?
Yes.  We like the city-state.  It's a great concept.  It just is not appropriate for our staffing team at this time.  We may want to make changes to how it is staffed, how it is represented, etc, so that we can avoid previous issues.  It likely won't be soon, however.

So, basically you hate Tuluk? Why not close down something else?
In the larger picture this really isn't about Tuluk at all. This is about our staffing team.  We need to make some changes. This just happens to be the method that we feel best meets our needs at this moment. It gives us a chance to try a consolidated staffing model, the opportunity to focus on parts of the game world that we really want to put more time and input into (Allanak, GMH, Outlying Outposts, Independent Surrounds) along with a very clear path back to exactly where we are now should we evaluate and choose to go there. Overall Tuluk works, and we can move back to the status quo easily, should our staffing situation and the game situation be at the point where we feel that is what the game best deserves.

Does this basically make all of the work invested in Tuluk null and void and worthless?
This was a question that sat heavily on those of us that have invested directly in Tuluk quite a bit.  My own personal answer here is that this doesn't invalidate that work.  Choosing to do nothing was not going to work.

What does this mean for the war effort?
We've talked before about how we want to see more nuanced roleplay than enemy city-states that duke it out constantly.  This is going to be the start of staff helping to make that happen.  Tuluk will still exist as an IC entity, it just won't have overt player action on the other side.  We will be free to animate it as an antagonist (or protagonist) to Allanak's actions, as well as those of the Great Merchant Houses, tribes, and independent organizations.

How do I just ignore the fact that I can't enter Tuluk whenever I want to do so?
We don't expect you to ignore it, just understand the OOC reasons (it is closed except at staff behest) and allude to some currently provided IC reasons if you like.  You can come up with your own IC reasons for not going back there.  Or, if you prefer, you can just say that you do virtually go home sometimes, because virtually, citizens can go there if they bribe the guards well enough. Codedly, you cannot unless it is open for staff.  Go with what works best for your own roleplaying experience.

But virtual NPCs and stuff can go into Tuluk.  Even parts of my GMH or independent organization supposedly exist in Tuluk.  How do I explain that?
Commerce still flows through there. Understand that it is not available for you to visit if you're not a citizen unless we have it open, and play it off from there.

How will Tuluki culture exist if there is no Tuluk?
The docs will still exist, and you can still play a Tuluki ex-pat somewhere else.  There are things that Tuluk did well in the past that can be taken up elsewhere (a culture for the arts isn't exclusive to any one city, for instance).

How will GMH operate if there is only one city?
GMH have had similar issues with needing to justify multiple leadership roles being spread out across the Known World.  Now there will be less of a need to have multiple leaders, though if they do exist/get recruited/promoted, they will be more closely tied to the rest of their PC team in whatever region they occupy.  We'd like to spend more time on things that GMHs can do that aren't just maintenance/run-of-the-mill "ordering and selling."

What are you going to do with places like Red Storm, and the like?
We want to beef these places up as outposts for visiting.

How can I have murder, corruption, and betrayal without a city-state enemy?
That enemy still exists (if it is one for you).  However, there are plenty of people to murder in Allanak.  We want to facilitate conflict and new roleplay opportunities by increasing staff's focus on Allanak.  More sponsored roles, more staff, more plots that tie into other areas of the game, and other surprises of that nature.

I am very unhappy with this change. I feel let down by staff.
We know. We're sorry. This has been a difficult transition for us, too, and we've been discussing it heatedly on the Immortal boards for a long time now. We know that players in Tuluk have put just as much love, care, dedication, and time into their PCs as characters elsewhere in the game. We would like to invite every player currently in Tuluk to reach out  via the request tool if you'd like to hash things out with us. If you're planning on keeping your current PC and going elsewhere in the world, we'll work with you on that. If you're going to store your PC and start a new one elsewhere, clan staff in that part of the world will (if you like) discuss your new PC with you and work with you to get you started with a character you will find interesting and exciting.

Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?
Please get in touch with us.  We are treating each case individually.  ALL Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

Will there be an increase in clan hiring caps for other clans, like AoD, noble houses, specific merchant branches, etc?
This is a good question.  The short and obvious answer is yes, there will be tweaks to that.  The more complicated answer is that we will be reassessing what clans are open and available and what works in terms of interaction.  With an increase in nobility and other localized leadership roles would come a necessary increase in clan caps.  

Will there still be "enforcers" in the North?  So that the entire Northlands doesn't turn into open season for, say, Rogue Gicks and Outlaws who now no longer need to worry about PCs regularly being present in an area that was previously well populated with potential risk and that is chock full of cool places to hermit-out in?
It's actually pretty simple really. Treat the game world with respect. Roleplay properly, and things will be as they should be. The world isn't going to change dramatically. There won't be roving hordes of feral Tuluki soldiers out to kill everything in sight. But if you're up there disregarding the world and acting like Tuluk doesn't exist. Acting like it's a free-for-all stomping ground, then you may get a reaction in kind. We hope that our players won't do that, and that our staff won't react in such a way.   What Rathustra means is that Tuluk will still exist and we as staff will animate it in that manner. We will have Tuluk NPCs react appropriately as situations arise in game. So that's what should be considered.

Will the northlands in general see a closing off? Will there be more rooms added to the south of the Known, so that Luir's is "farther" away? Or will the gates of Tuluk just be shut?
The gates will be shut to all PCs except virtual visiting for citizen PCs. vNPCs will still move in and out if they have business of interest to the state or an organisation that can vouch for a temporary entry/exit permit. It will still open for events. It will still be animated and virtually present in the wider Gol Krathu area.

How will this work for merchant houses?  Traveling between civilization centers is currently a part of merchant house roleplay (material exchanges and personnel transfers). Will PCs still travel to Tuluk to get supplies, etc? Or will this be relegated to something that happens virtually with PCs being involved?
We thought the same thing too! And we have come up with some ideas. We'll be working with the GMH on that.

I am just curious what is going to happen to all the items from Tuluk?
Anything integral to the game that was only found in Tuluk can most definitely be moved about.  We'll be focusing first on the really important stuff (we've already discussed mounts) and then move down from there. Since the city is still there (ICly) and since trade and such will virtually occur...and since we are planning to make GMH-specific stuff available on NPC merchants...I don't see why northern-specific goods couldn't be sold at a fat markup.  Also the rest is something Adhira has alluded to.  That's not to say you're going to see kryl stuff/armor/loot hit like nobody's business, I'm pointing out that there are possibilities here.

[Rathustra]

Crossposting from Staff Announcements:

Hello Armageddon,

Today, the news that we have been dreading for a month has become public. In a way it is as much a relief as it is a new burden. We're relieved that we can commiserate with those of you who we've spent time building and animating for and with – that we can share our memories of the good times Tuluk has given us and that we can begin the task of doing right by you one last time. We're burdened though by the loss of a part of the game world we viewed as being engaging, exciting, unique and challenging to play and staff for, by the abrupt end to many excellent player-developed and run storylines, by the loss of an IC culture kept alive through the combined efforts of innumerable players throughout Armageddon's history.

We regret that many of the plans and aspirations we had for Tuluk will now be put on hold – that the many other projects we have introduced recently will not have the chance to be fully utilised until Tuluk is drawn out of deep freeze. But all this is balanced by the hope that we will be around in the future when we can look at the city with a fresh pair of eyes and knit everything into a final, complete whole that will be ready for all of us to enjoy.

I hope you can forgive us for this closure. While we as a team are passionate about Tuluk, we are also passionate about ArmageddonMUD and realise that this direction is the best choice for developing the game as an RPI. None of us are planning on going anywhere – our drive and love for the parts of Armageddon that Tuluk embodied and exemplified remains and we will take Tuluk's emphasis on challenging play amd flavourful theme with us to the other parts of Zalanthas we go to work on.

Each of us are also dedicated to making sure this period of transition is as comfortable as possible for players currently in Tuluk. We invite each and every player affected by this change to get in touch with us directly so we can negotiate either a fitting closure to your character's story – or a means for your character to leave Tuluk and participate in the wider world – with a minimum of IC weirdness. Our time, as always, is yours until the gates close that final time and we move on.

Finally – we want to thank you all. Every single player who has played in Tuluk. Who has etched their name into Tuluk through their play and dedication. We want to thank everyone who has trod that city's streets and done something – good or ill, under the Sun King's eternal gaze. We also want to thank Tuluk's enemies – those who have fought hard and defined the city in adversity in game, or those outside of the game who made sure that every decision we made and every asset we built was gilded with an adversity that made our successes all the more sweeter.

Thank you all – and radiance bless.

-The Northlands Team

[Patuk]

What the fuuuuuuuuuuuck you guys holy shit

[TheWanderer]

I think this is a great move by staff, and will only better the game.

I've been dying to see a more consolidated player population for quite some time.

[BadSkeelz]

[Jingo]

You will be missed.

[Barsook]

While I'm saddened by this, I understand the reasoning behind closing Tuluk.  It was fun playing in Tuluk, but I feel like (even with my current PC) that I never really understood how the city and it's culture worked.

[Marauder Moe]

I had to check the timestamp several times, thinking this was an April Fool's joke that mistakenly got bumped.



More reactions to come, I guess.

[spicemustflow]

Tuluk did have a fuckton of problems, but is this the solution? nuke it from the orbit?

I loved playing there, when I did

[BadSkeelz]

Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

[Rathustra]

Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

[ghostymudy]

Higher concentration of PCs and more sponsored roles means more opportunities for plots to arise between players, there's going to be more going on and more staff to support it, instead of two groups of players playing practically separate games on the same server.

On the other hand, losing all this culture is pretty awful and the dynamic of city v city is gone, aside from NPCs. I never got to play a bard, also, which is super sherpt.

[Nyr]

Tuluk did have a fuckton of problems, but is this the solution? nuke it from the orbit?

We discussed nuking it from orbit, but chose not to do that.  We have some FAQ-type stuff above that should explain more.

[valeria]

Not sure how I feel about this.  I'm willing to see how it plays out.  And it's not like staff can't reopen it if this doesn't work.

My heart goes out to all the current players in Tuluk and all the diehard Tuluk players though.  I hope we don't lose these people as players.

[Cavaticus]

Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

Bolding for effect. ALL Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

[Rathustra]

Will those of us playing spec-apps in Tuluk get our karma refunded/not counted against our next spec-app?

Please get in touch with us. We are treating each case individually.

Bolding for effect. All Tuluki players (sponsored, spec-apped, or vanilla) should feel free to reach out to staff to initiate a discussion about your next character, what you would like to play, and how we can help you get there.

Or discuss your current character. We can help find ways for characters that would otherwise never leave Tuluk find a reason to leave home.

[Cavaticus]

Yes, that too!

[BadSkeelz]

You guys should have killed more of us yesterday

[Delirium]

In my mind, it's sort of like putting down a sick pet. It's been ill from puppy-hood, and you've poured countless money into treatments, surgeries, and medicine, but the time came when you just had to put it out of its misery. You had great times with it, and there was that great day when it wasn't too sick and you went for a romp by the beach, but it just kept getting sick and feeling miserable. Maybe someday you'll get a new puppy. For now, you're just going to focus your attention and care back on to other things while your financials recuperate.

Okay, I probably thought about that one too hard.

Still - and more seriously - while this sucks for those who are currently playing in Tuluk - I've lost characters through similar situations (a sorcerer, for one), so I can fully empathize - I think this is a move that will ultimately be for the best. The elements of Tuluk which worked can be implemented elsewhere in the game.

I'm interested to see what happens when other areas of the game receive the attention, time, and care that were poured into Tuluk. We've had a one-city game before, though in that time it had Tuluki patriots who were fighting against the occupation of Tuluk. So it had that conflict going for it.

In the absence of Tuluk as a playable entity working against Allanak, I'd love to see that other sustainable PC-vs-PC conflicts arise in its place.

[LauraMars]

Good idea. Props.

[valeria]

Will there be an increase in clan hiring caps for other clans, like AoD, noble houses, specific merchant branches, etc?

[Barzalene]

For someone who lost their shit over a bar, its kind of surprising this makes me feel really hopeful. I think this might be great. I think making the switch ooc was a really good move.

[LauraMars]

Good idea. Props.

(And I say that as someone who has put a shitload of hours and effort into Tuluk.)

[palomar]

I'm sorry to see this happening, and I hope it will have the effects staff hope for. Tuluk being my primary location/culture of choice for many years, I had hoped to return to play there eventually. I'm glad that it wasn't just nuked, and will be considered for reopening at some point down the road.

[HavokBlue]

I don't know how I feel about losing Tuluk as a playable entity but I am pretty sad about losing Tuluk as an entity to interact with.