Should guards be able to arrest nosave-fighting chars?

[I. G.]

If your criminal character is fighting, guards do not seem to attempt to subude you.  They instead attack, and more often than not, instantly kill your character.

Even with nosave on, you can consistantly be instantly gibbed.

There is no RP in that.  There is no fun in that.
With nosave on, you should submit when the guards arrive.
It is hard to roleplay out being captured with the law enforcement and such when your character instantly dies, dispite being willing to submit.



Thus, I propose:
City Guard NPC's be able to subude people whom are in combat.

Another route is this:  Code guard npc's the ability to 'arrest'.  Give it the same stat req's as subdue, give it the same effect as subuing someone, but make them be able to do it to a person whom is engaged in combat.
POSSIBLY, make it only work if they have nosave on.

For example, if nosave was ON:

You attack the guy!
You are wanted!
Your hit hits the guy
Your hit hits the guy

You swiftly dodge the guys hit.
You swiftly dodge the guys hit.

Guard has arrived from the east.
Guard says, 'Halt, criminal!'
(Your nosave is on)
You submit to the guard, and are arrested.

Guard drags you to the south... ect.



Or, if it is OFF, you get treated as you do right now.
Fighting = no subdue so draw draw kill.


You attack the guy!
You are wanted!
Your hit hits the guy
Your hit hits the guy

You swiftly dodge the guys hit.
You swiftly dodge the guys hit.


Guard has arrived from the east.
Guard says, 'Halt, criminal!'
(Your nosave is off)
Guard attempts to arrest you, but you resist.
Guard draws his sword.
Guard draws his sword.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
Guard hits you!.
*beep*




This would make for less chars dying to lameness, and promote RP instead of hard-coded, no-rp involved *beep*age.
Trust me, its more fun playing a templar/militia member when you have live (even if just for a while, mwuahaha) criminals to play with.

[I. G.]

If you vote no, please be sure to give a reason.

[Savak]

On the other hand, one could make greater effort to avoid breaking the law around the local militia in the first place.  It's also worth noting that in some circumstances the militia doesn't -want- to haul a criminal to jail, but are acting under orders to execute on sight.

Don't misunderstand -- I think the premise of guards being able to come in, interrupt a fight and haul a criminal off has merit in an ideal setting.  The hard parts here are that 1) the other person you're fighting might not want to stop, and they should have some perogative in that instance, and 2) I'm not sure how readily the code would submit to such an idea.

Overall I tend to lean away from this idea in large part because it gives a criminal too much freedom in attempting to kill someone and their greatest fear being..getting hauled off to jail, which in the average instance means an automatic get-out-of-jail timer.  Yeah, if PC soldiers or PC templars are involved it's a self-resolving issue.  But, I'd still rather people be more careful BEFORE getting involved in combat, if that makes sense.

-Savak

[Miee]

I voted "yes" but I imagine the city-state guards to be like the LAPD.  Beat/shoot first, arrest second.

If the guards could grab you and start beating you into submission, giving you time to go "nosave", then you get a survival chance.  Also, fun RP of being in massive amounts of pain afterwards.

[I. G.]

In the guards eyes, it does not matter if the victim wants to keep fighting or not.  Fighting has no place in cities.


When your assaulted gets hauled off to jail, you then get to decide if you want to run and find a templar/militia member/wish up for an imm to animate a templar or militia member.. ect, if your wants.

That is ROLEPLAY.  That is a LOT more fun for ALL parties involved than hard coded insta-judge jury executioner.

[jstorrie]

I would prefer if militia guards would come in, somehow 'rescue' any non-criminal you were fighting (without insta-killing you in the process), guard the exits, and give you a few seconds to drop your weapons and come peacefully.

Then again, these aren't modern-day police.  There aren't exactly checks and balances in place to prevent guard brutality, if you know what I mean.

[I. G.]

I would prefer if militia guards would come in, somehow 'rescue' any non-criminal you were fighting (without insta-killing you in the process), guard the exits, and give you a few seconds to drop your weapons and come peacefully.

With this system, that is pretty much exactally what nosave on would do.
Since seconds cost lives, you pre-decide your reaction to guards attempting to stop you, just as you do with nosave in any other situation.
(Since this situation just involves guards insta killing you because they cannot subdue while you are fighting)

With nosave on, if a guard tells you to drop your weapons and put your hands in the air, you DO.
With nosave off, if a guard tells you to drop your weapons and put your hands in the air, you DO NOT.

[Barzalene]

What is this weird "gibbed" word. What are the origins of "gibbed?"

[I. G.]

It basically comes from quake/halflife.

When you do enough damage to someone in one quick stroke (This usually involves a rocket, but can involve anything from falling to headshots), the character is killed and his model is replaced by various models of chunks of blood/guts/skulls ect.  This package of models is propelled outword in seperate directions.  What this means is, shoot a guy with a rocket, he explodes, body parts go flying everywhere.


Its massive ownage.  Like guard hits you guard hits you guard hits you guard hits you guard hits you guard hits you beep.

[Bestatte]

There are some crimes that will have the soldiers subdue you and haul you off to jail, if you have nosave on.

There are other crimes that the soldiers will attack you for.

Bear in mind also, that if you attack a noble, maybe one who doesn't happen to have a guard with him at the moment... that is punishable by immediate and instant death. The same goes for casting spells in town (north or south). Are you suggesting that the sentence - DEATH - be lightened? Because - that's the risk you take when you attempt to attack someone in town.

If you're gonna engage in an attack, whether it wrestling someone to the ground (subdue), using the backstab or sap skill, or just hauling off and smacking them open-fisted (kill/hit, unarmed), then you'd better make sure you'd -damned- good at it before you make the attempt. Because if you get caught..then you will die.

I don't see why that's such a difficult thing to understand. There -are- situations in the game where the soldiers will simply subdue you, and not attempt to attack you, assuming your no-save is set correctly.

[I. G.]

And I'm not talking about thoes special situations.
If no special situation applies, they still attempt to insta-kill no arrest.

[Bestatte]

Uh, they're not special situations. No more special than the situations that get you dead. They're just different crimes. Lesser crimes, if you want to look at it that way.

Do a crime that is punishable by death, and you'll die. Do a crime that isn't, and if your no-save is on, you won't die. <shrug> Seems to be working fine for me, and all the people I've seen dragged off to jail, very much alive, by NPC guards in the two major cities.

[I. G.]

Um
If you are engaged in combat, they will not attempt to subdue you.
They will 'kill' you instead.

[Bestatte]

Right. Because that's one of the crimes that is punishable by death.

[I. G.]

Code Select Expand

>steal key begger
begger shouts thief thief
begger attacks you

guard arrives from the east
guard draws his sword
guard draws his sword
guard hits you
guard hits you
guard hits you
guard hits you
guard hits you
guard arrives from the east
guard draws his sword
guard draws his sword
guard hits you
guard hits you
guard hits you
*beep*
YOUR CHAR IS NOW DEAD




that is all I am proposed being fixed.
If you have nosave on when you rob the begger, you are arrested instead of insta-killed.

[Bestatte]

Well either that's a bug - or that beggar is coded as a secret employee-assassin of the militia. Your best bet is to e-mail mud and ask.

[spawnloser]

You seem to be missing the point, I. G.  Being in combat means that you are attempting to kill something...now, the guards see this, so they don't ask questions.  You expect them to risk their own hides by trying to wrestle with a sword wielding maniac?

[I. G.]

No?  I expect them to say Halt! Drop your weapons! or somthing to the effect, you know, kind of like what real cops do?
If nosave is on, you GIVE UP and submit.

Did you even read the thread?

Jesus, by that response you seem to think them ever using the subdue command is wrong.

[Lazloth]

Right. Because that's one of the crimes that is punishable by death.

Generally speaking, it's not the militia's job to execute judgement -- but I don't see much wrong with the current system (outside of the fact that guards seem to be getting 200 attacks in that first round.)

[sacac]

Bah. What does it matter to the militia if one common criminal is no more?
i don't see a problem with it.
Yes.. though I've been killed over stealing a leaf that only sold for 2 'sid..
Stupid nosave

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I'm not sure why the code should present a guarantee that all people attempting to murder someone else will be arrested peacefully. Even in today's modern age where criminals are given rights (much unlike most of Zalanthas), I'm sure that a cop who is watching a bank robber shoot at innocents will open fire on the bank robber. Why should it be different in Allanak or Tuluk in the harsh desert world of Zalanthas?

[Miee]

It also occured to me that as a RL analogy, if you're pointing a gun or other weapon at someone, the cops will tell you to drop the weapon.  If you refuse and either turn it towards them or appear to be about to shoot the other person, they will shoot you dead.

If you're whacking someone with a sword and the guards rush in, they're probably not even going to give you a chance.  So ok, yeah.  A chance to nosave would be nice, but I guess it isn't too realistic in retrospect.

[Angela Christine]

The change you propose would most likely end in death anyway.  Have you ever been hit while subdued?  I have, and you rarely need to be hit twice to die.  So the guards rush in and subdue you, but if the guy you were fighting doesn't stop immediately then he will hit you at least once more while the soldier is holding you helpless, and you will die.

In order for it to work, both combatants would have to stop fighting simultaneously before the subdue kicked in.  I think that would be fairly complex to code, considering that we can't even voluntarily stop sparring without fleeing.  There aren't always enough soldiers to try to subdue both of you at the same time, so they would need a way to force the other guy (PC or NPC) to stop fighting once you have been subdued.


AC

[Anarchy]

I'd only support it if guards arrested both parties.

Sucks nothing more then getting subdued by a guard - then having your foe score a nice grevious wound on you subdued-cannot-defend-your-self-ass.

[drunkendwarf]

I'd entirely agree SOMETHING needs to be done about this.

I feel for ya, lost a 30 day ranger in less than a second myself at the city gates, shooting AWAY from the city at a raider, nonetheless. Didn't seem to matter to the guards, who gave me absolutely no rp chance to surrender to them or explain myself in any way. Failed their subdue, and cut me down. Mounted, with a bow in hand...died so fast I thought it was a joke or something...I had to scroll back up to even see what happened. If only they hadn't failed their subdue....
My poor char belonged to a group that offered it's aid to the Templarate whenever needed, and even lost a few members in the process. Some RP in all of it would have been great. ANY RP would have been nice.

As it is, it seems like nothing gets done about this gaping hole in the crim code...and these random posts will continue to pop up as someone else gets hosed. Maybe some day something will be done about it...it really killed my motivation to play for quite some time. I don't mind loosing characters...quite used to it at this point, but I count that as the lamest way I've EVER lost one, and it was quite a while before I took up the reins again.

I know MANY MANY suggestions have been made to remedy this problem...maybe it's time to implement one? Please?

[Agent_137]

Losing my character to what i view as a weak area of code would piss me off enough to go back to counter-strike for a half-year or so. I'd probably shoot an email to the mud, kick my computer, kick my desk, and then bitch about it to all my friends who know about armageddon.

With that said, a more developed crim code would be VERY nice.

With that said, a more developed combat code would be VERY nice.

With that said, a more developed mudsex code would be VERY nice.  :mrgreen:

So, yea.

I suggest that priority be fixing the -known- bug about the no delay of the attacks, giving the person time to flee -realistically- and either book it or type nosave on.

P.S.
I've read in the past that these forums aren't the first place Imms check for ideas and things to do. I think I've read that this is the -last- place. I suggest some one who really cares about this email the mud account or idea it, or bug it, or something to get their attention. I won't be doing it, i'm too lazy.   : -P

[I. G. (not logged in)]

The change you propose would most likely end in death anyway. Have you ever been hit while subdued? I have, and you rarely need to be hit twice to die. So the guards rush in and subdue you, but if the guy you were fighting doesn't stop immediately then he will hit you at least once more while the soldier is holding you helpless, and you will die.

Have guards be auto-guarding thoes they have arrested.
They don't care about the criminals life?
We'll, you're breaking the law, so they're gonna get in front and kick YOUR ass too.

[Krath]

I voted no...At first, I admit I was going to vote yes, but you have to realize I.G. This is not
real life and the guards do not act like it. There _ARE_ corrupt Militia people. Have you ever
seen the Green mile? Well I figure a majority of the Militia guards are like Springley? He acts first
then ask about it later. They do not like you, then you are inferior to them and do not care (Why
should they, if you are dead you can not give your side of the story).

On to your begger example...You keep forgetting, YOU comitted a crime, regardless if it is a
punishable by death crime, you are now a criminal in the city, and what MAY have been a
non-death crime, when the militia walked in they do not know that. They are probably thinking
ok Criminal A is attacking Citizen B, however he tried to steal from him and got caught, so Criminal A
is probabaly trying to kill Citizen B so no one knows about it. Lets get him!

I dunno, that is the best way I can explain it.

[moab]

I voted no.
Here's my thinking:
If your character is currently engaged in violent behavior and a guard sees you, his primary civic duty is to ensure the safety of the law-abiding citizens.  This is best accomplished by hitting your character with a heavy weapon.  

Both city states are very barbarious in their treatment of criminals and killing is a reasponable penalty for violent behavior.  It is also in theme with the mud.  

I personally would love to see these violent criminals executed publically, but how to imp that would require a lot of game modification or lots of player support logistically (ok, log in on tuesday we're going to have your character killed in public).

So - violent crimes in the two city states should be punished by death.  Perhaps an exception could be made for humans who are citizens of that city-state.  That would be a reasonable and in keeping with the racial themes of the game.

Further, I think other villages / outposts / tribes should be allowed to police their population differently.  Maybe in Red Storm killing isn't such a big deal and it only lands you in prison for a time but steal someone's water and die.  Maybe a human who steals in Blackwing's encampment will get slaughtered, but an elf only has to worry about being banished from the outpost after a murder of another elf.

I dunno.  The criminal code has been broke for a very long time and I'm surprised that (from a player's perspective) not a whole lot has been done about it.  I'm sure there is a great deal of backgroun discussion on the topic but I wonder why such slow movement on it.

I wanted to add that I was disappointed that Taloc didn't respond to my question on the other thread that discussed criminal law code.  I view this as an example of either heavy-thinking by the immortals on the topic (and not wanting to make any calls until they decide what to do) or the coders are tired of hearing about the topic and want to work on a different area of code.  I dunno.  It would be good to hear an IMM weigh in with more than a c&p of documentation and explanation of the current system along wth ways we can rationalize bad code.

[Angela Christine]

With that said, a more developed mudsex code would be VERY nice.  :mrgreen:

That could cause embarasing mishaps when you are out hunting scrabs with your buddy and type "give head man."  


AC

[I. G. (Not logged in)]

Theres somthing called 'playability' you have to keep in mind.

Criminals not getting instantly waxed gives militia and templar PC's work.
Say your a 15 year old kid, stealing bread to survive.  You get caught.

You can, A. Die Instantly to NPC's
or
You can, B. Roleplay out the situation with other PC's.

Perhaps the Templarate will execute you.
Perhaps the Templarate will chop off your hand.
Perhaps the Templarate will sell you off into slavery.


Which provides more RP for more PC's?
NPC insta-kill?  I don't think so.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There are actually two sides to "playability" when discussing criminal code.  On one hand, you have people would like to play criminals of various kinds, including thieves, murderers, muggers, and so on.  On the other hand, you have the victims of said theft, murder, mugging, and so on.  You have to strike some balance between these two factors - make it too difficult to get away with theft, and the thieves all complain; make it too easy to get away with theft, and the victims will complain.

There is definitely a correlation between the viability of playing a successful criminal, and the harshness of the criminal code, but it is certainly not the only factor.  This is evidenced by the fact that there are, in fact, successful thieves, assassins, muggers, burglars, and so on.  This indicates, to me, that people are capable of figuring out the vagaries of the criminal code and playing successful criminal types within the limitations that currently exist.  Not only that, but the current crim code has a consistent feeling with the overall harshness of the game world and environment.

That being said, I think that the balance is currently weighed a bit too much against criminals and potential criminals.  This is caused not by the actions of the militia, but instead the speed with which scripts execute, which makes "making a run for it" just about impossible.  I don't have a problem with a soldier drawing his sword and stabbing at a known criminal.  What I do have a problem with is that soldier attempting a subdue, drawing his weapon, and then getting in multiple attacks all in a single instant.  That isn't "harsh criminal code", that's bad scripting.  We, as players, are expected to react to our environment as realistically as possible, but that road goes both ways - we the players should conversely be able to expect our environment to react as realistically as possible.

I would suggest adding some simple wait-state timers in between actions for militia NPCs.  If they enter a room, add a wait-state timer to simulate movement delay.  Add a timer after a subdue attempt, and so on.  Basically, give criminals a chance to really make a run for it, or to flee once they've been engaged in combat, because frankly, at present unless you're a master warrior or have an absolute crapload of health or really good armor, you get toasted before the delay for whatever criminal act you did wears off.

To recap quickly - I have no issue with the criminal code or the actions taken by NPC militia to "resolve" criminal code.  However, I believe that the speed with which the NPCs carry out those actions violates the basic premise that if the players can be expected to treat their environs "realistically", then they should be able to expect realistic reactions.  I also believe that this same speed of reaction tips the balance a bit too heavily against criminals, and in favor of victims.

[Tlaloc]

I don't think it hurts the playability of the game for anyone else if your character gets killed, for trying to attack someone, or resisting arrest.

In a nutshell, heres the deal (as I see it):

1) Zalanthas is not the United States.They don't have nice things like 'Human Rights', or care about 'Police Brutality'. In fact, the police are expected to be brutal - this helps keep the crime rate down, since nobody wants to be brutalized.

2) A dead criminal is easier to deal with than a live one. Live criminals kick, fight, scratch, yell and scream thier way to the jail. Dead ones don't. Live criminals scream as they're being 'interogated'. Dead ones don't. Live criminals might live on to become repeat offenders. Dead ones wont.

3) Not every criminal/assault case is worth troubling a Templar with. Sometimes, its just easier to kill the guy, than worry about suffering Lord Templar Hardon's wrath, because you interupted his nice meal with Lady Sexkitten.

4) In the Real World, the Law will respond with lethal force, if nessecary, if they believe someone else's life is in danger. I don't think its any different on Zalanthas - in fact, in as harsh a world as it is, typically, its best to assume that someone is going to die.

5) Finally, as "Help Criminal" says, there are really only four ways of dealing with becoming incriminated for a crime:

1) Die.
2) Bribe a Templar.
3) Leave the City.
4) Spend time in the dungeons.

Note: 'Die' is first on the list, and 'Spend time in the dungeons' is dead last. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Now: this isn't to say a more robust criminality code isn't desireable. Getting killed because you poked someone in the eye is sort of outlandish (unless you poked someone Important in the eye), even in the most Totalitarian regemes. However, from what I hear, the crim code is a messy, messy monster of a machine, that has a tendancy to devour coders whole. Theres a reason why it hasn't changed much in nearly a decade of operation, heh.

To answer someones concerns about what I think: well...thats a tough question. In short: yes, I (and the rest of the staff) try to be thoughtful about everything we put into the game. I can hear many people chuckling at that statement right now, but I assure you, its true.

So what do I think? I think that it would be cool to have 'better' criminal code, yes. In an ideal world, we would be able to create NPC city guards with semi intelligent AI's, who could distinguish better between one crime, and another, applying various types of force, depending on the crime. In fact, in an ideal world, you would be able to bribe NPCs on the fly (which, you probably -can- do, by wishing up). Ideally, I would step away from insta-attacking guards, and even quite so many -lethal- ones, and move to other systems, where multiple guards can dog-pile a PC, and having three or four guards take you to jail would be harder to escape from than breaking out of a single guard's grasp.

However, I also think that in an ideal world, we would also have better criminals. Thats right: I said it: better criminals. Right now, we have some PC criminals who'll spam steal everything off of someone at a bar, swipe the pants off of someone who's sleeping (not even unconsious: just 'sleeping'), all the furniture out of a bar, who go on wild killing sprees without regard to NPC/VNPC populations (or even if its IC, or not), and who would likely abuse any flaws or loopholes in a guards AI they could find. If guards didn't instantly attack when they ran into the room, how many thieves wouldn't take the opportunity to run off? To hide? To spam run/sneak into the rinth, as fast as they could?

That, incidentally, is a natural, IC response to being chased by The Law. However, the question remains: How long is a 'good' delay, before the guards agress on a criminal? A half second? A whole second? Three seconds? How do you balance that with the natural Player response (which is: "OMFG! I'm wanted! RUN!")? Would there ever be any criminals getting caught after that, at all?

One of the chief reasons 'nosave' was added, was to increase the chances of players surviving incrimination. I think its a fairly good middle-ground, as you stand a half-decent chance of survival with it. Before 'nosave', there was no chance of survival, unless your PC somehow happened to get captured in the first round of fighting. Now, its very reasonable to play a criminal character, and survive a good long while. Is it risky? Yes. Is it hard? Probably. Does this make the rewards for being successful even greater? I think so.

[Armaddict]

Same deal as raiding

Commands for preservation before enrichment.

[I. G. a]

They wouldn't be getting off scott free.  They would be sent to jail and the situation could then be roleplayed out accordingly.

If the goal of the game is RP, then the situation as it is now is fubar.  There is no rp in 1 rounding a criminal the instant a crime happens with NPC's.
There is fun in roleplaying out an arrest with Templars and Milita PC's.

This is only for a small ammount of criminal acts, as well.  Though enough characters are instantly killed because of it it warrants change.

I don't want criminals getting off scott free.  I want the ones that don't want to be instantly borged by a guard (nosave on) to have the chance to roleplay their characters incrimination/torture/execution/slavery.... ect.

[Armaddict]

Pkilling is not lack of role-playing.

The soldiers play a role.  The brutal, harsh soldier that constitutes the majority of the peacekeeping force.

You play your role, break a law, and they play theirs, kill you for it.

You probably came from a MUSH of some sort, where they believe that PKilling is lack of role-play, and end up going OOC to find reasons not to kill the person.

Death is part of Zalanthas, and it's a big part.  It happens all over the place.  Live in the world as is.

[Anonymous]

This isn't pkilling.
This is a npc 1 rounding your char before you have any chance to react.

Do you wonder why they attempt to subude you in 90% of the situations?  Because they are susposed to take you to jail for thoes offenses.  Do you know why they DON"T attempt to subdue you in the situation I am talking about?  Because the CODE, the CODE, the *CODE*, dosen't let them.

Not because they don't want to, not because they've had a bad day, but because the CODE dosen't let them.

[Armaddict]

Correct.  But if you are engaged in a battle, why should they wait for you to succeed?  They jump in and cut you down, as, by fighting, you are a dangerous man throwing weapons about.

Can you give me a good explanation why they would bother to take a chance with it?

[Cenghiz]

I'll answer.. Because noone can type flee in a milisecond. That's why it's a flaw in code..

[Armaddict]

I already said something about guards coming in and getting double their attacks.  It was shot down.

Instadeath happens everywhere, not just guards.  Know the best way to avoid it?  Be a little more cautious, eh?

If you went out in front of a cop station, and started shooting passersby and cars, I bet you'd get yourself shot real quick like.

In Zalanthas, don't go around attacking commoners or -anyone- right in view of a soldier.  It's relatively simple.

[moab]

Nice post, Tlaloc.  Thanks for the insight.  :-D

[Kalden]

I would just like to see no resisting separated from no climbing and no spell saves. Even better, I'd like it so that random PCs couldn't subdue me on a whim, but that's asking for a bit much.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Perhaps a simple solution (and a quick fix) is to insert a random number into the delay in act_crim. Let the number range from 0-3 seconds in regards to how fast a gaurd acts in each room. For instance...

You attack John.

Gaurd A arrives, and takes a .7 second delay.
Guard B arrives and takes a 1.3 second delay.

You flee.

Upon entering the next room, where there is Guard C...

Guard C takes a .5 second delay.
Gaurd A arrives and takes a 2.4 second delay.
Guard B arrives and takes a 1.1 second delay.

You flee.

Upon entering the next room, you see two guards.

Guard A arrives, and takes a .1 second delay.
You cannot move fast enough, so, Guard A screams halt and tries to subdue you. He does not succeed, and so proceeds to pull his weapons and attack you.
Guard D took a 3 second delay and will not attack or assist until that delay is over.
Guard E however, only took a .9 second delay, and he attacks after it is over.
Guard B arrives and takes a 1.4 second delay.
Guard C arrives and takes a 1.6 second delay.

You flee, now at moderate, and turn nosave on, because damn that.

The random delays represent factors such as crowds, clumsiness, bad luck, luck, etc....

[I. G. .]

Correct. But if you are engaged in a battle, why should they wait for you to succeed? They jump in and cut you down, as, by fighting, you are a dangerous man throwing weapons about.

Can you give me a good explanation why they would bother to take a chance with it?

DID YOU EVEN READ THIS THREAD?  I'm going to have to ask you to please read before you start posting.
Say you are a COP irl.  A mean cop.  A pissed off cop.  A somewhat corrupt cop.  Say these two crack-addicts are in a knife fight.

What do YOU do, Armaddict?

Do you wield your baton and jump in and start fighting the knife wielding guy, or do you first pull your gun out and yell "DROP THE KNIFE"?

With this system, nosave on would mean you drop the knife and get arrested.  Then its up to the templarate to deal with you.  How unrealistic is that?

Try reading.

[Bestatte]

If I was a mean somewhat corrupted cop and came upon a pair of crack addicts knife-fighting I'd shoot them both and tell the Captain they tried to attack me.

[Anonymous]

Too many witnesses, remember vnpc's.  Nobles and Templars get assassinated when they are corrupt, militia guys have to watch out too.

[Delirium]

Police brutality: Yes please.

SuperNPCNoLagGangbangSlaughter: No, thanks.

I literally went from full health to -10 in a second once, and it was all because of OOC forgetfulness, heh. I walked one room, and then suddenly my screen goes *boom* and I scroll up and five guards had piled on me from the next room over and mort'd me before I even had a chance to blink, much less type anything.

If the NPCs simply had a reasonable delay that gave you a chance in hell of typing 'flee' before being a pile of blood and guts, I'd be happy.

The rest of the crime code can stay as is. I like the harshness.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'll posit a couple of minor theories.  I can't prove them factually, but I will attempt to make logical arguments for them.

1 - Better criminals.  My theory on this is that twinkish criminal code produces twinkish criminals.  The basis of my argument is that a smart or successful thief does not get caught.  Certain criminal activities do not crimflag you, which means not getting caught.  This includes activities such as stealing furniture, and stealing the pants off of sleeping victims - automatic success means no crimflag, which means you survive the crim code and live to steal another day.  Unfortunately, a good number of the crimes you can "get away with" are also "twinkish", which means that logically, the successful thief is likely a twink.  Is it possible to play a smart, successful thief who plans out his heists, escape routes, picks his victims carefully, and so on?  I'll try it and let you know some time, I guess.  In the meantime, I find a logical correlation between problematic criminal code and problematic criminals.

2 - Unintentional criminals.  A large number, perhaps even the majority of posts complaining about getting slaughtered by the militia are put up not by people playing thieves, but people who accidentally incriminated themselves.  In nearly all of these cases, death is arguably unwarranted, even in an environment like Zalanthas.

But as Tlaloc pointed out in a specific sense, but I think is fair to generalize on, any solution to the criminal code has problems of its own.  I'll propose some potential solutions regardless.  

1 - Militia are already scripted to sheathe-subdue-draw-attack on someone flagged as a criminal, change the "draw" part of the script to pull out a militia-issue truncheon, specifically formulated to do high stun damage but only moderate health damage.  Presumably, this would result in fewer fatalities while simultaneously addressing the issues of having a live criminal kicking and screaming his way to jail.  Actually, I'm not sure I can claim credit for this idea, I think someone else mentioned something similar in this thread, but it still seems like a good idea to bring up again.

2 - Create two different types of crimflags - lethal and nonlethal.  Change nothing about the way the militia responds to threats, but if you have a nonlethal crimflag on, being "killed" by the militia somehow ends up with you in jail, rather than dead.  Ok, so I don't know how that last part would work exactly... perhaps the soldiers haul your remains to a cell and you somehow end up with a res?  I'm fishing a bit on that, I guess, but the point is to end up with a harsh response to crime without accidentally killing off characters, and giving survivors of the crimcode something to roleplay with (their harrowing experience) rather than ending that character's roleplaying potential entirely.

[Vettrock]

2 - Create two different types of crimflags - lethal and nonlethal.  Change nothing about the way the militia responds to threats, but if you have a nonlethal crimflag on, being "killed" by the militia somehow ends up with you in jail, rather than dead.  Ok, so I don't know how that last part would work exactly... perhaps the soldiers haul your remains to a cell and you somehow end up with a res?  I'm fishing a bit on that, I guess, but the point is to end up with a harsh response to crime without accidentally killing off characters, and giving survivors of the crimcode something to roleplay with (their harrowing experience) rather than ending that character's roleplaying potential entirely.

This is already coded.  There are crimes that are punishable only by death.  I agree with giving the soldiers clubs that knock out out rather than kill, should save at least a couple of lives.  I also thing there should be at least a slight delay for the guards.  Yes, more criminals will get away, but I personally think that could be a good thing.

As far as the unintentionaly criminals, every time I have been wanted, its been unitentional, from carrying spice into the city, attacking a wild animal inside the gates, selling a militia weapon, casting a spell one room outside the gates of  Red Storm.  Even just recently, I've been wanted unintentionally, I can't go into the details as it would reveal some IC info, but I made a mistake forgetting about something.  Luckily there was no soldiers in the next room, or I probably would be dead.

[Tlaloc]

Just to note, Vettrok: In all of your above examples, except one (the one about attacking a viscous animal inside the gates), I would say the fact that you got incriminated was wholely intentional. You were breaking the law in every case, and ignorance of the law is never a defense. In the animal case, yeah, I'd say that one is pretty unintentional, because technically the guards should be able to figure out that -anyone- helping to fight off the bahamet/mekillot/whatever that is attacking the city, probably shouldn't be thought of as a 'criminal'.

No clue about your most recent experience.

[Kalden]

I really, really like Venomz's idea! :idea:

[Cenghiz]

Tlaloc oh please you don't want to understand? I don't play dirty-criminal roles for long, because I'm afraid. I've never been insta-killed. The code was different or I was somewhat uber when I was first caught, because two guards could deal only little damage to me. After that char died I thought; "Oh yeah, let me try the other classes then get back to another assassin.". I never did. Because I do plan my char. I don't like the 'get in the 'rinth, backstab all, hide a lot, sneak all the time and become uber' logic. That assassin was made with such logic because I was a newbie from an H&S MUD. But I cannot think of any other logic to become a good criminal. OK. I'm a fool IRL, I'm not creative IRL but; is Allanaki Militia really too great that no fool criminals have right to live? Are all thieves and thugs and burglars masters of strategy?
I don't know why such code's put in, but it seems to be a little unrealistic. Sorry; OK I know the soldiers are meant to be groups of soldiers, they're pretty well trained, they're empowered by Tek himself, they have steel bla bla. Still they should have a lag. Only for movement. Let them subduedrawdrawslashslashslashslashslash thing, but let them not fly into the room we're in. Let them run with a moderate speed. Wouldn't that be fine?
To advance in a skill, you must fail. If you fail in the city, you're jailed or dead. Being jailed is not very nice RP. So can't the code be different so our new pickpockets of Allanak could steal something other than stale rolls or rotten fruits? Please, let someone PM me another way to improve a newbie pickpocket so I can believe that the crime code needs no changes? I promise not to use the ways PM'ed to me if the author doesn't want me to.


Ohh I feel relieved.

[Mr.Camel]

I really, really like Venomz's idea!

[Lazloth]

Just to note, Vettrok: In all of your above examples, except one (the one about attacking a viscous animal inside the gates), I would say the fact that you got incriminated was wholely intentional.

I believe his items were meant to suggest that he was not (intending to) consciously break the law, not whether the actions were intended as laws by the citystate founders.

To Vettrok: just like earth, (IC) ignorance is no excuse.

[Vettrock]

Just to note, Vettrok: In all of your above examples, except one (the one about attacking a viscous animal inside the gates), I would say the fact that you got incriminated was wholely intentional.

I believe his items were meant to suggest that he was not (intending to) consciously break the law, not whether the actions were intended as laws by the citystate founders.

To Vettrok: just like earth, (IC) ignorance is no excuse.

Yes I was not intending to break the law, and had I known I was breaking the law, I would have surrendered immediately.  I understand that ingnorace is not an excuse, all of those things happened several years ago(except for the recent one), I leanred something from them in every case, yes I was breaking the law, and will take steps to aviod doing so in the future.

[Agent_137]

cenghiz, were you drunk when you wrote that?

Because i'm drunk, and I totally understood it.

:mrgreen:

[Anarchy]

Ok, first - this question needs to be answered - if met with a "Yes" answer, i make the following suggestion.

1) When a guard cries out "Surrender, criminal!" or some such - and say your fighting - realisticly, would you continue to fight, or would the two brawlers back off from one another as the guards came in? I'd say yes, they would. Only an idiot is going to continue swinging a sword after a guard has arrived on the scene.

So,

code it so milita guards, when entering the room, emote breaking up the fight, then saying surrender or die. They have the option of typing "surrender" - and thus being subdued, and dragged to jail, if they type anything else other then surrender - the guard see that as breach of rank, and attack.

Rough, i know, but the idea is there.

[Cenghiz]

cenghiz, were you drunk when you wrote that?

Because i'm drunk, and I totally understood it.

Yes I had had a little whisky to ease my nerves after a long period of working.

[Dan]

If someone drops something, you might try to pick it up without them noticing (steal it). I don't believe you'll get rushed and killed for picking something up with the steal skill, but if you mess up everyone will see you and know it was you who nabbed it (See help skill_steal for the explanation). Eventually you can grab things up without anyone seeing, off of their tables, or the bar. After you feel competent enough you might try to get into their pockets.

[jstorrie]

Hey - maybe those big burly guards could have sap?  That'd be nice.

[X-D]

Oh sure, give them sap, make it impossible to escape npc guards...snort.

Considering NPC's don't have skill delays when they sap, it is instant, and I've had a half-giant with 203stun KO'd by an NPC elf in one shot...still can't figure out how he jumped up there and did it without my char noticing:)

Nah, bad idea with current code.

[sacac]

What's so hard to believe? (I didn't mean for this to be a flame towards X-D, I was just looking at the helpfiles)
Half-giants only get to 12 and a half feet tall.
Elves get to 7 and a half feet.
With them kinda stats and them long ass arms(Including intelligence to move quieter in that situation with an unsuspecting, "mentally handi-capped" half giant, they could reach up there and knock your 12.5 foot ass out, I think.
Not to mention this little blurb from help race_elf
"Elves are very long-limbed,..." in the third paragraph.

On topic:
soldiers with sap is very bad.
One guard runs up on you and saps you and the other soldier has kill you on the menu, you are gonna die.. every time.

And I still don't think there is anything wrong with the soldiers.
I mean goddamn people, set up your nosave on when in doubt about if what you are doing is illegal and you don't wanna be killed.

[Anonymous]

PLEASE READ THE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST

I mean goddamn people, set up your nosave on when in doubt about if what you are doing is illegal and you don't wanna be killed.

The entire reason this thread was made was because guards will jump in and instakill you even if you have nosave on if you are in combat.

[spawnloser]

Eventually you can grab things up without anyone seeing, off of their tables, or the bar. After you feel competent enough you might try to get into their pockets.

Wrong.  Those are containers, meaning you need the skill sleight-of-hand.  Steal only works for things in the room and things being taken directly from people.

[Angela Christine]

I mean goddamn people, set up your nosave on when in doubt about if what you are doing is illegal and you don't wanna be killed.

The entire reason this thread was made was because guards will jump in and instakill you even if you have nosave on if you are in combat.

That is easy too.  Don't start combat or do anything illegal within sight of the guards.  If you see a soldier one or two rooms away, wait until he moves on.  

Then don't stay in combat in lawful areas.  Flee imediately, nosave, and then go on with your day.


AC

[Agent_137]

Fix the KNOWN CODE PROBLEM FIRST.

Discuss theory AFTER the code is fixed.


Thank you.

[Angela Christine]

Fix the KNOWN CODE PROBLEM FIRST.

Discuss theory AFTER the code is fixed.

How would you like that to be acomplished here in the General Discussion forum?  Players can't fix the code.  The staff knows about the situation and either can not fix it, is unwilling to change it, or hasn't gotten to it yet.  So what is left for general discussion?  Ways to live with the reality that exists today.  


Perhaps militia on internal police duty could be given high-stun nightstick type weapons, weapons that are designed to pacify the populace.  Those on gate duty, protecting very sensitive areas, or marching to war would naturally want the most leathal weapons available.  You don't want the soldiers simply knocking a rampaging mekillot unconcious and then ignoring it until it wakes up and starts eating them again.    

There may be a problem with knocking out criminals though.  I have previously seen soldiers standing around with a subdued criminal for long periods of time, but only if the criminal was inactive.  I'm not sure if the criminal was mortally wounded, unconcious or linkdead, but something caused the soldiers to start ignoring him despite the fact that they had already subdued him.  You really don't want soldiers knocking out criminals and then ignoring them.  By the time you woke up the passing crowds will have stolen everying you own!  Landing in a cell unconcious isn't great either, because if they get busy you may wind up sharing your cell with other PCs, who may kill you or steal your pants just because they can.  

Crime doesn't pay.  Well, getting caught doesn't pay.  Except occasionally, when you land in a cell with a dead guy, and you can steal all his stuff.


AC

[Anonymous]

Give them swords AND nightsticks?

Nightsticks to knock out non-lethal offenses
Swordz for filthy magickerz, traitors, bahamets, ect.

[sacac]

No? Let's give them MORE power by being able to knock out anyone in one hit? No. Once you people find out what's illegal, you don't do it again, unless you want to, yea?

[Tlaloc]

Perhaps militia on internal police duty could be given high-stun nightstick type weapons, weapons that are designed to pacify the populace.

Thats assuming, of course, that the militia wants to pacify the populace in a non-lethal maner, which I don't think is true. Instead, the chief weapon the ruling classes use against the populace is fear, and the pain of death for breaking the 'rules'. If you get off with anything less than death, I would count myself lucky.

Zalanthas is a terrible place to live. They don't have nice rules, human rights, or (typically) easy punishments. Its a world where the weak, unwise or unlucky die - sometimes very quickly.

[Anonymous]

YEAH!  And people are GREEDY and MEAN, right?


So maybe we should make bandit NPC's in the newbie starting rooms that kill/rob people as soon as they spawn in!  the guards are in on it too so they dont get arrested!

Or, lets have guards randomly kill PC's because the PC virtually pissed off a VNPC and the VNPC paid for the hit or somthing.  Who cares, theres a 1000 other bullshit reasons we can think of to justify the guards randomly killing people and getting away with it!

Or hey, lets make failing a steal make you instanly die, because you get the crap beat out of you by a lot of vigilante VNPC's! its realisitic!!! its a harsh world out there, dont do anything illegele

THIS GAME IS THE FUN
     

[mansa]

I haven't read most of the posts on this thread, because it's gone over the 'length' limit of my curiosity, but...

Why not give soldiers club weapons?  You'd smash in some heads, but you'll knock out people before you kill them...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The flaw to giving clubs to the soldiers and beating the shit outta the person is this: The PC the soldiers beat is now a criminal, and any PC that wants to can go on and kill them, because of that.

If that is fixed, I'm all for the 'club idea'.

[AC away from home]

Thats assuming, of course, that the militia wants to pacify the populace in a non-lethal maner, which I don't think is true. Instead, the chief weapon the ruling classes use against the populace is fear, and the pain of death for breaking the 'rules'. If you get off with anything less than death, I would count myself lucky.

Meh.  Death only works so far, I think many people are more afraid of the pain of pain, than the pain of death.  Once you are dead, you are dead.  End of story.  What do you learn from that?  Getting the crap beat out of you and then spending time in a filthy cell, and being "fined" some of of your possessions is going to stick with a person.  That was a really unpleasant experience, something you don't want to do again.  You'll tell your buddies about how unpleasant it was, and they won't want to do it either.  It isn't a matter of human rights or being nice, it is simply that a living witness can spread more fear than another corpse on the heap, especially if people have gotten used to seeing heaps of corpses.

In the long run knowing that Uncle Joe, who you don't even remember very well, was killed by the militia will have less of an effect than Uncle Joe himself telling you about the beating he took from the milita, and that's why his finger bends that funny way and he has no front teeth, so he has to cut up all his food real tiny.  You'll get to see him struggling to chew every day, you'll get to see his bent finger and his missing teeth.


Death is useful too, but it isn't the only tool in the Oppressor's Toolkit.


AC

[Krath]

Ah..To the Anonymous poster, get a GDB name.  To everyone else, I say screw it. It isn't a fair
world and it is not Earth or America. If you are committing a crime you might die, more likely
than not. If you do not like that, then become a better criminal and better at what you do.  If I was
in the militia or any form of some such, If I saw two pcs fighting, I would take down the wanted one.
I would not waste my time trying to pull him from battle because then I might get hurt in the process
and why would I want to hurt myself with my cushy job? I Say No, and even though it is my opinion
I would be pissed if it got changed to subduing you while fighting, it is not realistic. And YES, two WELL
train guards coming at you and instagibbing you in one round is.  If you need examples and reasons
please ask.