Should guards be able to arrest nosave-fighting chars?

[Agent_137]

Losing my character to what i view as a weak area of code would piss me off enough to go back to counter-strike for a half-year or so. I'd probably shoot an email to the mud, kick my computer, kick my desk, and then bitch about it to all my friends who know about armageddon.

With that said, a more developed crim code would be VERY nice.

With that said, a more developed combat code would be VERY nice.

With that said, a more developed mudsex code would be VERY nice.  :mrgreen:

So, yea.

I suggest that priority be fixing the -known- bug about the no delay of the attacks, giving the person time to flee -realistically- and either book it or type nosave on.

P.S.
I've read in the past that these forums aren't the first place Imms check for ideas and things to do. I think I've read that this is the -last- place. I suggest some one who really cares about this email the mud account or idea it, or bug it, or something to get their attention. I won't be doing it, i'm too lazy.   : -P

[I. G. (not logged in)]

The change you propose would most likely end in death anyway. Have you ever been hit while subdued? I have, and you rarely need to be hit twice to die. So the guards rush in and subdue you, but if the guy you were fighting doesn't stop immediately then he will hit you at least once more while the soldier is holding you helpless, and you will die.

Have guards be auto-guarding thoes they have arrested.
They don't care about the criminals life?
We'll, you're breaking the law, so they're gonna get in front and kick YOUR ass too.

[Krath]

I voted no...At first, I admit I was going to vote yes, but you have to realize I.G. This is not
real life and the guards do not act like it. There _ARE_ corrupt Militia people. Have you ever
seen the Green mile? Well I figure a majority of the Militia guards are like Springley? He acts first
then ask about it later. They do not like you, then you are inferior to them and do not care (Why
should they, if you are dead you can not give your side of the story).

On to your begger example...You keep forgetting, YOU comitted a crime, regardless if it is a
punishable by death crime, you are now a criminal in the city, and what MAY have been a
non-death crime, when the militia walked in they do not know that. They are probably thinking
ok Criminal A is attacking Citizen B, however he tried to steal from him and got caught, so Criminal A
is probabaly trying to kill Citizen B so no one knows about it. Lets get him!

I dunno, that is the best way I can explain it.

[moab]

I voted no.
Here's my thinking:
If your character is currently engaged in violent behavior and a guard sees you, his primary civic duty is to ensure the safety of the law-abiding citizens.  This is best accomplished by hitting your character with a heavy weapon.  

Both city states are very barbarious in their treatment of criminals and killing is a reasponable penalty for violent behavior.  It is also in theme with the mud.  

I personally would love to see these violent criminals executed publically, but how to imp that would require a lot of game modification or lots of player support logistically (ok, log in on tuesday we're going to have your character killed in public).

So - violent crimes in the two city states should be punished by death.  Perhaps an exception could be made for humans who are citizens of that city-state.  That would be a reasonable and in keeping with the racial themes of the game.

Further, I think other villages / outposts / tribes should be allowed to police their population differently.  Maybe in Red Storm killing isn't such a big deal and it only lands you in prison for a time but steal someone's water and die.  Maybe a human who steals in Blackwing's encampment will get slaughtered, but an elf only has to worry about being banished from the outpost after a murder of another elf.

I dunno.  The criminal code has been broke for a very long time and I'm surprised that (from a player's perspective) not a whole lot has been done about it.  I'm sure there is a great deal of backgroun discussion on the topic but I wonder why such slow movement on it.

I wanted to add that I was disappointed that Taloc didn't respond to my question on the other thread that discussed criminal law code.  I view this as an example of either heavy-thinking by the immortals on the topic (and not wanting to make any calls until they decide what to do) or the coders are tired of hearing about the topic and want to work on a different area of code.  I dunno.  It would be good to hear an IMM weigh in with more than a c&p of documentation and explanation of the current system along wth ways we can rationalize bad code.

[Angela Christine]

With that said, a more developed mudsex code would be VERY nice.  :mrgreen:

That could cause embarasing mishaps when you are out hunting scrabs with your buddy and type "give head man."  


AC

[I. G. (Not logged in)]

Theres somthing called 'playability' you have to keep in mind.

Criminals not getting instantly waxed gives militia and templar PC's work.
Say your a 15 year old kid, stealing bread to survive.  You get caught.

You can, A. Die Instantly to NPC's
or
You can, B. Roleplay out the situation with other PC's.

Perhaps the Templarate will execute you.
Perhaps the Templarate will chop off your hand.
Perhaps the Templarate will sell you off into slavery.


Which provides more RP for more PC's?
NPC insta-kill?  I don't think so.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There are actually two sides to "playability" when discussing criminal code.  On one hand, you have people would like to play criminals of various kinds, including thieves, murderers, muggers, and so on.  On the other hand, you have the victims of said theft, murder, mugging, and so on.  You have to strike some balance between these two factors - make it too difficult to get away with theft, and the thieves all complain; make it too easy to get away with theft, and the victims will complain.

There is definitely a correlation between the viability of playing a successful criminal, and the harshness of the criminal code, but it is certainly not the only factor.  This is evidenced by the fact that there are, in fact, successful thieves, assassins, muggers, burglars, and so on.  This indicates, to me, that people are capable of figuring out the vagaries of the criminal code and playing successful criminal types within the limitations that currently exist.  Not only that, but the current crim code has a consistent feeling with the overall harshness of the game world and environment.

That being said, I think that the balance is currently weighed a bit too much against criminals and potential criminals.  This is caused not by the actions of the militia, but instead the speed with which scripts execute, which makes "making a run for it" just about impossible.  I don't have a problem with a soldier drawing his sword and stabbing at a known criminal.  What I do have a problem with is that soldier attempting a subdue, drawing his weapon, and then getting in multiple attacks all in a single instant.  That isn't "harsh criminal code", that's bad scripting.  We, as players, are expected to react to our environment as realistically as possible, but that road goes both ways - we the players should conversely be able to expect our environment to react as realistically as possible.

I would suggest adding some simple wait-state timers in between actions for militia NPCs.  If they enter a room, add a wait-state timer to simulate movement delay.  Add a timer after a subdue attempt, and so on.  Basically, give criminals a chance to really make a run for it, or to flee once they've been engaged in combat, because frankly, at present unless you're a master warrior or have an absolute crapload of health or really good armor, you get toasted before the delay for whatever criminal act you did wears off.

To recap quickly - I have no issue with the criminal code or the actions taken by NPC militia to "resolve" criminal code.  However, I believe that the speed with which the NPCs carry out those actions violates the basic premise that if the players can be expected to treat their environs "realistically", then they should be able to expect realistic reactions.  I also believe that this same speed of reaction tips the balance a bit too heavily against criminals, and in favor of victims.

[Tlaloc]

I don't think it hurts the playability of the game for anyone else if your character gets killed, for trying to attack someone, or resisting arrest.

In a nutshell, heres the deal (as I see it):

1) Zalanthas is not the United States.They don't have nice things like 'Human Rights', or care about 'Police Brutality'. In fact, the police are expected to be brutal - this helps keep the crime rate down, since nobody wants to be brutalized.

2) A dead criminal is easier to deal with than a live one. Live criminals kick, fight, scratch, yell and scream thier way to the jail. Dead ones don't. Live criminals scream as they're being 'interogated'. Dead ones don't. Live criminals might live on to become repeat offenders. Dead ones wont.

3) Not every criminal/assault case is worth troubling a Templar with. Sometimes, its just easier to kill the guy, than worry about suffering Lord Templar Hardon's wrath, because you interupted his nice meal with Lady Sexkitten.

4) In the Real World, the Law will respond with lethal force, if nessecary, if they believe someone else's life is in danger. I don't think its any different on Zalanthas - in fact, in as harsh a world as it is, typically, its best to assume that someone is going to die.

5) Finally, as "Help Criminal" says, there are really only four ways of dealing with becoming incriminated for a crime:

1) Die.
2) Bribe a Templar.
3) Leave the City.
4) Spend time in the dungeons.

Note: 'Die' is first on the list, and 'Spend time in the dungeons' is dead last. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Now: this isn't to say a more robust criminality code isn't desireable. Getting killed because you poked someone in the eye is sort of outlandish (unless you poked someone Important in the eye), even in the most Totalitarian regemes. However, from what I hear, the crim code is a messy, messy monster of a machine, that has a tendancy to devour coders whole. Theres a reason why it hasn't changed much in nearly a decade of operation, heh.

To answer someones concerns about what I think: well...thats a tough question. In short: yes, I (and the rest of the staff) try to be thoughtful about everything we put into the game. I can hear many people chuckling at that statement right now, but I assure you, its true.

So what do I think? I think that it would be cool to have 'better' criminal code, yes. In an ideal world, we would be able to create NPC city guards with semi intelligent AI's, who could distinguish better between one crime, and another, applying various types of force, depending on the crime. In fact, in an ideal world, you would be able to bribe NPCs on the fly (which, you probably -can- do, by wishing up). Ideally, I would step away from insta-attacking guards, and even quite so many -lethal- ones, and move to other systems, where multiple guards can dog-pile a PC, and having three or four guards take you to jail would be harder to escape from than breaking out of a single guard's grasp.

However, I also think that in an ideal world, we would also have better criminals. Thats right: I said it: better criminals. Right now, we have some PC criminals who'll spam steal everything off of someone at a bar, swipe the pants off of someone who's sleeping (not even unconsious: just 'sleeping'), all the furniture out of a bar, who go on wild killing sprees without regard to NPC/VNPC populations (or even if its IC, or not), and who would likely abuse any flaws or loopholes in a guards AI they could find. If guards didn't instantly attack when they ran into the room, how many thieves wouldn't take the opportunity to run off? To hide? To spam run/sneak into the rinth, as fast as they could?

That, incidentally, is a natural, IC response to being chased by The Law. However, the question remains: How long is a 'good' delay, before the guards agress on a criminal? A half second? A whole second? Three seconds? How do you balance that with the natural Player response (which is: "OMFG! I'm wanted! RUN!")? Would there ever be any criminals getting caught after that, at all?

One of the chief reasons 'nosave' was added, was to increase the chances of players surviving incrimination. I think its a fairly good middle-ground, as you stand a half-decent chance of survival with it. Before 'nosave', there was no chance of survival, unless your PC somehow happened to get captured in the first round of fighting. Now, its very reasonable to play a criminal character, and survive a good long while. Is it risky? Yes. Is it hard? Probably. Does this make the rewards for being successful even greater? I think so.

[Armaddict]

Same deal as raiding

Commands for preservation before enrichment.

[I. G. a]

They wouldn't be getting off scott free.  They would be sent to jail and the situation could then be roleplayed out accordingly.

If the goal of the game is RP, then the situation as it is now is fubar.  There is no rp in 1 rounding a criminal the instant a crime happens with NPC's.
There is fun in roleplaying out an arrest with Templars and Milita PC's.

This is only for a small ammount of criminal acts, as well.  Though enough characters are instantly killed because of it it warrants change.

I don't want criminals getting off scott free.  I want the ones that don't want to be instantly borged by a guard (nosave on) to have the chance to roleplay their characters incrimination/torture/execution/slavery.... ect.

[Armaddict]

Pkilling is not lack of role-playing.

The soldiers play a role.  The brutal, harsh soldier that constitutes the majority of the peacekeeping force.

You play your role, break a law, and they play theirs, kill you for it.

You probably came from a MUSH of some sort, where they believe that PKilling is lack of role-play, and end up going OOC to find reasons not to kill the person.

Death is part of Zalanthas, and it's a big part.  It happens all over the place.  Live in the world as is.

[Anonymous]

This isn't pkilling.
This is a npc 1 rounding your char before you have any chance to react.

Do you wonder why they attempt to subude you in 90% of the situations?  Because they are susposed to take you to jail for thoes offenses.  Do you know why they DON"T attempt to subdue you in the situation I am talking about?  Because the CODE, the CODE, the *CODE*, dosen't let them.

Not because they don't want to, not because they've had a bad day, but because the CODE dosen't let them.

[Armaddict]

Correct.  But if you are engaged in a battle, why should they wait for you to succeed?  They jump in and cut you down, as, by fighting, you are a dangerous man throwing weapons about.

Can you give me a good explanation why they would bother to take a chance with it?

[Cenghiz]

I'll answer.. Because noone can type flee in a milisecond. That's why it's a flaw in code..

[Armaddict]

I already said something about guards coming in and getting double their attacks.  It was shot down.

Instadeath happens everywhere, not just guards.  Know the best way to avoid it?  Be a little more cautious, eh?

If you went out in front of a cop station, and started shooting passersby and cars, I bet you'd get yourself shot real quick like.

In Zalanthas, don't go around attacking commoners or -anyone- right in view of a soldier.  It's relatively simple.

[moab]

Nice post, Tlaloc.  Thanks for the insight.  :-D

[Kalden]

I would just like to see no resisting separated from no climbing and no spell saves. Even better, I'd like it so that random PCs couldn't subdue me on a whim, but that's asking for a bit much.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Perhaps a simple solution (and a quick fix) is to insert a random number into the delay in act_crim. Let the number range from 0-3 seconds in regards to how fast a gaurd acts in each room. For instance...

You attack John.

Gaurd A arrives, and takes a .7 second delay.
Guard B arrives and takes a 1.3 second delay.

You flee.

Upon entering the next room, where there is Guard C...

Guard C takes a .5 second delay.
Gaurd A arrives and takes a 2.4 second delay.
Guard B arrives and takes a 1.1 second delay.

You flee.

Upon entering the next room, you see two guards.

Guard A arrives, and takes a .1 second delay.
You cannot move fast enough, so, Guard A screams halt and tries to subdue you. He does not succeed, and so proceeds to pull his weapons and attack you.
Guard D took a 3 second delay and will not attack or assist until that delay is over.
Guard E however, only took a .9 second delay, and he attacks after it is over.
Guard B arrives and takes a 1.4 second delay.
Guard C arrives and takes a 1.6 second delay.

You flee, now at moderate, and turn nosave on, because damn that.

The random delays represent factors such as crowds, clumsiness, bad luck, luck, etc....

[I. G. .]

Correct. But if you are engaged in a battle, why should they wait for you to succeed? They jump in and cut you down, as, by fighting, you are a dangerous man throwing weapons about.

Can you give me a good explanation why they would bother to take a chance with it?

DID YOU EVEN READ THIS THREAD?  I'm going to have to ask you to please read before you start posting.
Say you are a COP irl.  A mean cop.  A pissed off cop.  A somewhat corrupt cop.  Say these two crack-addicts are in a knife fight.

What do YOU do, Armaddict?

Do you wield your baton and jump in and start fighting the knife wielding guy, or do you first pull your gun out and yell "DROP THE KNIFE"?

With this system, nosave on would mean you drop the knife and get arrested.  Then its up to the templarate to deal with you.  How unrealistic is that?

Try reading.

[Bestatte]

If I was a mean somewhat corrupted cop and came upon a pair of crack addicts knife-fighting I'd shoot them both and tell the Captain they tried to attack me.

[Anonymous]

Too many witnesses, remember vnpc's.  Nobles and Templars get assassinated when they are corrupt, militia guys have to watch out too.

[Delirium]

Police brutality: Yes please.

SuperNPCNoLagGangbangSlaughter: No, thanks.

I literally went from full health to -10 in a second once, and it was all because of OOC forgetfulness, heh. I walked one room, and then suddenly my screen goes *boom* and I scroll up and five guards had piled on me from the next room over and mort'd me before I even had a chance to blink, much less type anything.

If the NPCs simply had a reasonable delay that gave you a chance in hell of typing 'flee' before being a pile of blood and guts, I'd be happy.

The rest of the crime code can stay as is. I like the harshness.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'll posit a couple of minor theories.  I can't prove them factually, but I will attempt to make logical arguments for them.

1 - Better criminals.  My theory on this is that twinkish criminal code produces twinkish criminals.  The basis of my argument is that a smart or successful thief does not get caught.  Certain criminal activities do not crimflag you, which means not getting caught.  This includes activities such as stealing furniture, and stealing the pants off of sleeping victims - automatic success means no crimflag, which means you survive the crim code and live to steal another day.  Unfortunately, a good number of the crimes you can "get away with" are also "twinkish", which means that logically, the successful thief is likely a twink.  Is it possible to play a smart, successful thief who plans out his heists, escape routes, picks his victims carefully, and so on?  I'll try it and let you know some time, I guess.  In the meantime, I find a logical correlation between problematic criminal code and problematic criminals.

2 - Unintentional criminals.  A large number, perhaps even the majority of posts complaining about getting slaughtered by the militia are put up not by people playing thieves, but people who accidentally incriminated themselves.  In nearly all of these cases, death is arguably unwarranted, even in an environment like Zalanthas.

But as Tlaloc pointed out in a specific sense, but I think is fair to generalize on, any solution to the criminal code has problems of its own.  I'll propose some potential solutions regardless.  

1 - Militia are already scripted to sheathe-subdue-draw-attack on someone flagged as a criminal, change the "draw" part of the script to pull out a militia-issue truncheon, specifically formulated to do high stun damage but only moderate health damage.  Presumably, this would result in fewer fatalities while simultaneously addressing the issues of having a live criminal kicking and screaming his way to jail.  Actually, I'm not sure I can claim credit for this idea, I think someone else mentioned something similar in this thread, but it still seems like a good idea to bring up again.

2 - Create two different types of crimflags - lethal and nonlethal.  Change nothing about the way the militia responds to threats, but if you have a nonlethal crimflag on, being "killed" by the militia somehow ends up with you in jail, rather than dead.  Ok, so I don't know how that last part would work exactly... perhaps the soldiers haul your remains to a cell and you somehow end up with a res?  I'm fishing a bit on that, I guess, but the point is to end up with a harsh response to crime without accidentally killing off characters, and giving survivors of the crimcode something to roleplay with (their harrowing experience) rather than ending that character's roleplaying potential entirely.

[Vettrock]

2 - Create two different types of crimflags - lethal and nonlethal.  Change nothing about the way the militia responds to threats, but if you have a nonlethal crimflag on, being "killed" by the militia somehow ends up with you in jail, rather than dead.  Ok, so I don't know how that last part would work exactly... perhaps the soldiers haul your remains to a cell and you somehow end up with a res?  I'm fishing a bit on that, I guess, but the point is to end up with a harsh response to crime without accidentally killing off characters, and giving survivors of the crimcode something to roleplay with (their harrowing experience) rather than ending that character's roleplaying potential entirely.

This is already coded.  There are crimes that are punishable only by death.  I agree with giving the soldiers clubs that knock out out rather than kill, should save at least a couple of lives.  I also thing there should be at least a slight delay for the guards.  Yes, more criminals will get away, but I personally think that could be a good thing.

As far as the unintentionaly criminals, every time I have been wanted, its been unitentional, from carrying spice into the city, attacking a wild animal inside the gates, selling a militia weapon, casting a spell one room outside the gates of  Red Storm.  Even just recently, I've been wanted unintentionally, I can't go into the details as it would reveal some IC info, but I made a mistake forgetting about something.  Luckily there was no soldiers in the next room, or I probably would be dead.

[Tlaloc]

Just to note, Vettrok: In all of your above examples, except one (the one about attacking a viscous animal inside the gates), I would say the fact that you got incriminated was wholely intentional. You were breaking the law in every case, and ignorance of the law is never a defense. In the animal case, yeah, I'd say that one is pretty unintentional, because technically the guards should be able to figure out that -anyone- helping to fight off the bahamet/mekillot/whatever that is attacking the city, probably shouldn't be thought of as a 'criminal'.

No clue about your most recent experience.