Close the northern noble houses?

[Agent_137]

Hehe, the Kings are all "dread pirate roberts" style. The Muk utep we have now isn't the original, but one in a long line of those who assume the mantle and the power of the name of Muk Utep


*scary music here*


Gives those young budding templars some hope of moving up in the world, eh?

[Stroker]

It would be cool if Tektolnes was really a very well trained monkey sent from the future by mad scientists to spread havoc across the land.

[EvilRoeSlade]

When I was a templar, I always resented nobles.  I'd see their guards sitting around in taverns doing nothing, when I knew that if they were working for me they'd be killing things and adventuring on a daily or at the very least weekly basis.  Meanwhile I was stuck with a fluctuating level of 1-3 soldiers, and when I needed more I'd just borrow a bunch of noble guards ANYWAY.

Nobles are essential for their clan.  Therefore if their clan fades out of existance, they no longer become essential.  Templars however, are essential for their city.  Especially in Tuluk where they can be issuing thief and assassin licenses (and later on giving work to those same thieves and assassins).  That is where I'd like to see the Tuluki action at, by the way.  Murders and burglaries.  I believe this can be accomplished best by hedging out all the redundant clans, and making each sect of "The Bards of Poet Circle" a full-fledged clan.

These wouldn't just be mild-mannered performers.  They'd be reminiscent of the bards which originally hailed from Dark Sun, minus the magick.  Asassins, blade experts, poison experts, thieves.  They'd all want the most fame and fortune, and this would mean getting down and dirty with the other troupes.  Hire somebody to wax their head performer.  Wax their head performer yourself.  Hire somebody to set fire to the stage while they're performing, or do it yourself.  Have the T'zai Byn pull a rival into an alley and beat the living fuck out of them.  Hire a mercenary (either Byn or independant) to protect you from all the waxing, burning, and beating.  Can Tuluk get any better than this?

[UnderSeven]

I really really really hate the idea of centering the action around one thing.  I've seen lots of rp muds do this in one way or another.  Lets have some organizations fight and then all the action is centered around that conflict.

That sucks for a game, because unless you are involved in the conflict yuou are BORED.  On top of that if you are in the conflict with one char the most you coudl do with your next to avoid playing the exact same thing again is do the other side.

Closing noble houses is a bad idea.  Moving all the action around one or two aspect is a bad idea.  Getting rid of redundant clans is an okay idea but lets face it.  This thread was about what, putting the player base together in the north more?  Well thing is i've seen taverns FULL of pcs where I Was still bored out of my mind.  Shoving everyone in one place does not nessicarily equal more interaction or more role play.  

I think we should keep a myriad of things going on in the north because it gives people fresh things to play.  Even with a single long lived char doing the same thing over and over again sucks after a while.

As far as ways to improve it, having played a noble before what I found is I precieved there to be too little to do. Sure I could go against X noble house or throw Y party (I love x's and y's) but ultimately I got to feeling what's the point.  Maybe having fewer pc nobles isn't a bad idea, because there seems to be a glass cieling there that make the roles feel less ambitious.  Ultimately conflict is what we need and ambition, but in order to be ambitious there needs to be a point worth working toward.  Give the clans a purpose and I don't think we'll see bored people.

[Anonymous]

Ultimately conflict is what we need and ambition, but in order to be ambitious there needs to be a point worth working toward.  Give the clans a purpose and I don't think we'll see bored people.

And often times that purpose is born out of conflict.  Conflict is more prevalent when there are more PCs in a given area.

While I don't agree with shutting down Tuluk at all, I do feel that spreading out the noble roles across the two cities has resulted in all noble PCs having fewer fellow nobles to interact with in their area.  Most players correctly play nobles as arrogant and petty.  As such, it just stands to reason that the more nobles are playing in a given city, the more they'll be pissing each other off.  A good thing, IMHO.

[UnderSeven]

I'm not sure nobles competing with nobles works though.  My experience is since the nobles have their own house purposes which don't really conflict with each other, there is little for them to do to each other.  Their goals really don't cross except for. Petting things, as CRW said, more or less just because they're too proud to get along, but just squabbles hardly makes for good conflict.

[Werd]

The Byn would lose out, no more contracts for riding from city to city on guard.

Why would the Byn no longer be needed to ride from city to city on guard? I don't think anyone has suggested making Tuluk up and vanish into thin air.

The major Merchant houses would lose out because they would have to import alot more raw material from the North to their southern Houses, only having a limited ammount each crafter could work, whereas right now if you need say, a log, I can get you one in an hour or less

Good! I think it is a problem that you can deliver a log in an hour or less myself, the more limited the resources on this supposedly "harsh" desert world the better.

If you thought overhunting was bad now, just imagine if you had one month where the hunting group of a single Merchant house would come up for a rl week and try to get as much as they could?

Sounds great to me. Just think maybe these supposedly different and rival houses might actually have to fight over limited resources! Perish the thought, I know. That or they would negotiate deals between them to collectively work together to get needed resources. Hopefully that wouldn't happen, imo there needs to be more lines in the sand and outright open conflict and strife.

Last few times I have been south, I haven't even seen a Noble, only aides and guards that were wondering hey, where's my noble.

Maybe if the Tuluk houses were closed you would *GASP!* amazingly have a better chance of encountering a noble in Allanak since the player base would be more concentrated! (Yes I am being sarcastic, but the point remains.)

In closing.  Even when Tuluk was destroyed, people came and business was done.  When it was rebuilding, people came, and we worked hard and built and gathered.
If it got shut down to only Silverwood, we would have the same number of Hunters, craftsmen, and other ways of building up skills,

So you are saying independents will continue to be independents and do as they usually do? I agree and I don't think that is the issue here.

but we would not have the RP,

Why wouldn't there be RP if the independents congregated in a smaller area? In reality I think the chances for RP interaction between them would only increase, not decrease. Hopefully in the form of more rivalry brought about by jealousy of the more successful hunters/gatherers by the less successful ones. Hell maybe it would also provide a ripe atmosphere for a player run clan of hunters/gatherers and the like to spring up.

the availability of four (or more) different bars to go to get away.

How many empty bars are you really going to miss?

Dawn would come, everyone would scamper out to get the little bit that they could before returning before a sandstorm (or something nasty big) got them.

And your problem with this is?

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure nobles competing with nobles works though.  My experience is since the nobles have their own house purposes which don't really conflict with each other, there is little for them to do to each other.

I've experienced something quite the opposite.  Feuding nobles across houses often results in other PCs being engaged for undercover spying, assassination or just information gathering.

Their goals really don't cross except for. Petting things, as CRW said, more or less just because they're too proud to get along, but just squabbles hardly makes for good conflict.

No, two nobles having a 5 minute cat fight over a table doesn't do much to involve other PCs.  Fortunately, those things can escalate into something much more interesting.

[Trenidor]

To be frank, and quite simple...Werd is a Jackass

1.Why would someone want to visit a  city that no one is allowed into?

2. You're Power gaming if you can deliver a log in an hour or less to the south. I'm pretty sure your kank wouldn't want to carry that gigantic tree at a running pace all the way to 'nak from tuluk

3.If Tulukis don't ever leave their city there's no chance of them attacking allanaka

4. What would the difference make of meeting a noble in the south...I don't think I read anywhere that we'd get new players, that have lots of time on their hands to wait around all day, to take up the noble roles in allanak.

5. What's the use in getting rid of already established houses, for crapy new ones? Is it just me or are some of you for this idea so that you can start your own clans?

6. I use every bar in the city at least once on any given day. I'd miss the cheap price of ale in Freils rest, and the strong tasting stuff in the elven market. Then I'd miss the ability to smoke up all my spice then buy more in the tooth; which means I have less chance of losing all that spice I'm packing around if someone stole it. Then I'd miss the rich nobles and templar interaction I can get at Sanctuary.

7. All my characters that live in Allanak have never experienced the feeling of over hunting. In tuluk though, there are millions of hunters killing up the place. I don't think you understand how it is that Tulukis use up resources they find fast.

It is apparent this Discussion is getting out of hand, the Tuluki's are on defence for many reasons.

The allanaki want this idea because they want more interaction with people because they miss all their friends that left up to tuluk.

Then there are the people that are for this idea because they think that it'll give them a better chance of creating their own clans. (Really smart...get rid of the best clans for clans that are crappy)

There are also the people that want this idea because others are agreeing on it, so they have to join in too.

Finnally there are the people that are for this idea because it give allanak a better advantage against tuluk. More things will be done because tulukis can't defend themselves up in the walls.

Now what does this mean?

It means there is no opposition in the whole game. Allanak will be the black city, and tuluk will be the white, but no one will care anymore because tuluki's aren't around to say white is better than black.

It means that new clans will be established of course, but they won't be that long lasting. I'd rather be in a clan that stays for a long time (either because they developed the hard way, or because they are already around) than play some stupid clan that will last for a few days and then everyone will think they could start their own as well, and they would leave the clan to form new ones.

It means that when you're traveling up north, the only reason you'd hang around for a long time would be because you did something wrong in allanak and need a hideout. Then people would think that anyone that's lived long in Tuluk Market is a theif.

It means that when we go north, the only reason for this is because we would be greedy bastards looking for northern supplies to sell back in allanak.

And this is only half of what it means.


I can see only two logical solutions to this problem:

1. Get more people to play.

and 2. Hold your own friggen RPTs and you'll get more interaction.

[mansa]

I'm making my font a size larger, so people can read it.


You MUST portray the relative population of the game world through the player's characters of the game.  It is essential for politics in the game world.

As a player of the game, my first reaction is to judge a clan based off the CURRENT CHARACTERS who are playing, in that clan.  If I notice that there is NOBODY in that clan, my GUT reaction is to think that it is a WEAK and BORING and POWERLESS clan.

I do not judge a clan based off how many VNPCs and NPCs are in the Senate.  I base it off the people in the clan.

We, as players, all do this.   We, as people who do NOT know EVERYTHING that goes on behind the scenes must rely on what we can see and touch.  That is the visible people in the world.


To close down a whole city, or a clan, is to remove them from the politics of the game.  It shifts the whole powerbase of the game world and what we as players can do.  It takes everything and puts it into the hands of the IMMORTALS.  That is the WRONG thing to do.  It sets us back as players.  It doesn't allow us to change the world at all.  We would have to depend on the IMMORTALS for everything.

Example 1:
In 2000, House Kadius had almost 1/4 of the total population of PCs in the game world employeed.   They ruled.   They were scary.  They could, if they wanted to, Attack and kill every NPC and PC in Salarr, or even Kurac.

That isn't correct.   Gamewise, Kadius doesn't even have a standing army.  They hire hunters.  They hire a small bit of guards.  That's it.   But Imagine it.   House Kadius DESTROYING House Kurac in a war.  It should NEVER happen.


Example 2:
This one is for you guys to use your imagination.

Imagine that the immortals decided to 'close down' House Kadius.  In order to get your special clothes, you would have to email the mud account.  People would play merchant characters, and be able to craft their own clothes.  They would sell it to other people, now, because they have the useable skills.  Those characters would amass so much coin that they, relatively speaking, could BUY their own NOBLE HOUSE in Allanak and Tuluk.  They would become their own MERCHANT HOUSE.

But, that should -never- happen.  The merchant houses OWN the economy.  They ARE the economy.  They make sure that individuals can never amass enough coin to make it to that level, unless they have their own personal stakes in it.  It would be -crazy- if a certain character got so much coin that they could CHALLENGE them.  They would have them killed.

But.   The opposing forces are now all NPCs and VNPCs.  Controlled by IMMORTALS.  Immortals aren't allowed to outright kill the players of the game.  It would be considered cheating.  But, if they were to acurately portray the opposing forces, they would DEFINATELY send out assassins to any group that might have some form of Challenge to them.  When was the last time that YOU had a group of Assassins sent out by House Jal at you?  It doesn't happen because WE as PLAYERS would rise up and voice our threats at the CHEATING immortals.


The only -REAL- thing that can be done, is to recruit more players.  So do it.

[Anonymous]

What is wrong with how things are now?

[Gilvar]

What is wrong with how things are now?

Many people believe (myself included) that the world is too segmented and broken up, thus making clans relatively smaller by dividing the available number of people by large numbers.

If it was still on the board I would refer you to a very good post that discussed this when the North was rebuilt. Many people were upset because everyone played in the North (and the population is still in the phase of the cycle where most players during peak time are in the North).

Most people can agree that having more people in any one area would increase interaction, clan-size, etc. But then people complain they can't play a certain type of role. Etc. Or that things are too similar.

It all depends on who you talk to.

[Trenidor]

Yes well if everyone was in tuluk, why didn't the panseys go up north themselves to mess around?

[UnderSeven]

Consolidating people only works SO FAR.  If you put the whole playerbase in a room without anything to do there or a reason to interact, they're not going to do anything.  I agree with Mansa and Trenidor, if you want more pcs in your area recruit and MAKE YOUR OWN EVENTS.  Motivate them, be a leader.

Trenidor, don't call people jack asses.  

If someone wants to cut a log in the north and bring it south in 30 mins let them.  One log isn't going to affect have an impact.  If someone wants to bring a lot of logs in that manner, they'll find out why people don't generally do that often very fast.

[SpyGuy]

Yes well if everyone was in tuluk, why didn't the panseys go up north themselves to mess around?

Because some people don't like the North, the politics, or the culture.  Personally I can't stand it for prolonged periods, it doesnt feel like the same game.  Part of the problem is that I havent had a role in Tuluk that allowed me to feel like part of the cities culture, so much of it is independent/clanned hunters and such that I never saw and rarely heard about intrigue.

But as Gilvar said, all depends who you ask.  Allanak -is- the centerpiece of the game, 'nak's theme of harsh desert is what its all about.  Some people prefer the South, some the North.  But they seem far too similar and regardless of theme the roles themselves aren't significantly different.  Tuluk can have bard intrigue and indepents like 'nak never can, why split up the social intrigue aspect of the game by having very similar noble houses in the North?

And btw Trenidor, calling someone a jackass because they disagree with you isn't exactly furthering your point.

[Werd]

I had originally written up a post that was probably closer to a flame, so here is the toned down version.

To be frank, and quite simple...Werd is a Jackass
why didn't the panseys go up north

Thank you for this helpful and insightful contribution to this thread. It is spelled pansies by the way.

1.Why would someone want to visit a  city that no one is allowed into?

I am going to assume this is about the Byn patrolling from city to city point. Maybe I need to spell this out for you and make it clearer because it is obviously so obvious that your staggering intellect simply chose not to acknowledge its existence because it was so below it. Ok here goes, you may want to pat your head and rub your tummy while chewing bubble gum to distract your superior grey matter so it is on the level of normal mortals. Here begins the hypothetical situation: Step 1, the Byn leaves Allanak and goes on the patrol to the north. Step 2, The before mentioned Byn, (Are you still with me here? Good, I know how it pains you to dumb yourself down to follow my points.) would stop at the Silverwood outpost and then maybe stay there for a RL day, rping it out that they had been up to the gates of Tuluk itself on patrol in a VNPCly sort of way. Wow, I know that was way too simple for you to even consider, but there it is. They don't need to be able to enter Tuluk in order to patrol between the two cities.

2. You're Power gaming if you can deliver a log in an hour or less to the south. I'm pretty sure your kank wouldn't want to carry that gigantic tree at a running pace all the way to 'Nak from Tuluk.

Uhh, what? Who suggested that it was a good idea to do this? Perhaps if I put my previous point entirely in bold underline and italics it will sink in better for you. Good! I think it is a problem that you can deliver a log in an hour or less myself, the more limited the resources on this supposedly "harsh" desert world the better.[/i][/u] Reading comprehension is our friend, okay kids?

3.If Tulukis don't ever leave their city there's no chance of them attacking allanaka

Who said nobody could ever leave Tuluk at all? I am sure if Tuluk wanted to send some people or an army out to fuck with Allanak they could manage to open the gates for their own soldiers to leave. Are you saying that because PC's do not populate Tuluk that it ceases to exist? The mantis did a pretty good job of attacking Luirs and guess what, the mantis race was closed for PC play awhile ago! Astounding, I know since by all rights they should not exist by your reasoning!

4. What would the difference make of meeting a noble in the south...I don't think I read anywhere that we'd get new players, that have lots of time on their hands to wait around all day, to take up the noble roles in Allanak.

Again I think the point was too simple for you to grasp. Resume the patting rubbing and chewing while reading the following: Tuluk clans closed=more people playing in Allanak clans. More people playing in Allanak clans=higher chance of you encountering someone who is part of an Allanak based clan, amazing, I know.

5. What's the use in getting rid of already established houses, for crapy new ones? Is it just me or are some of you for this idea so that you can start your own clans?

I never suggested putting up "crappy" new ones as you put it so eloquently. If you have not picked up on it yet, I am in favor of less clans. I have noticed posts where people have stated a desire for more player run clans and that is the only reason I included that in my point. The fact that where would be fewer Imm run clans could possibly lead to more people available to form player run clans if that is what they desire to do.

6. I use every bar in the city at least once on any given day. I'd miss the cheap price of ale in Freils rest, and the strong tasting stuff in the elven market. Then I'd miss the ability to smoke up all my spice then buy more in the tooth; which means I have less chance of losing all that spice I'm packing around if someone stole it. Then I'd miss the rich nobles and templar interaction I can get at Sanctuary.

Good, want a gold star?

7. All my characters that live in Allanak have never experienced the feeling of over hunting. In Tuluk though, there are millions of hunters killing up the place. I don't think you understand how it is that Tulukis use up resources they find fast.

If that is your experience then perhaps the resources available around Allanak need to become scarcer.

It is apparent this Discussion is getting out of hand, the Tuluki's are on defence for many reasons.

Just because you don't care for it don't mean it has gotten out of hand, all of the replies have been well thought out and mature up until you started posting.

The allanaki want this idea because they want more interaction with people because they miss all their friends that left up to tuluk.

You might find this amazing but I have never had an Allanak based character, wow! I think you are too attached to Tuluk oocly and you are guilty of what you are accusing others of.

Then there are the people that are for this idea because they think that it'll give them a better chance of creating their own clans. (Really smart...get rid of the best clans for clans that are crappy)

I'll have to go over the thread again but I am pretty sure nobody jumped up and said YEAH GET RID OF TULUK SO I CAN FORM MY OWN CLAN! As for Tuluk having the best clans, that is entirely a matter of opinion.

There are also the people that want this idea because others are agreeing on it, so they have to join in too.

Yeah we're all zombies with no thoughts of our own. *drool*Hey AC are my posts good enough for you?

Finnally there are the people that are for this idea because it give allanak a better advantage against tuluk. More things will be done because tulukis can't defend themselves up in the walls.

Wow. ...just, wow. Again assuming that only PCs populate and defend Tuluk.

Now what does this mean?

It means there is no opposition in the whole game. Allanak will be the black city, and tuluk will be the white, but no one will care anymore because tuluki's aren't around to say white is better than black.

What is stopping people from saying this exactly?

It means that new clans will be established of course, but they won't be that long lasting. I'd rather be in a clan that stays for a long time (either because they developed the hard way, or because they are already around) than play some stupid clan that will last for a few days and then everyone will think they could start their own as well, and they would leave the clan to form new ones.

JOIN A LONG STANDING AND ESTABLISHED CLAN THEN! You answered your own question, what was the point of this exactly? Once again I merely suggested that maybe with less coded clans available there would be more PCs available to start up some viable player run clans, I did not in any way say that there will be, there must be, or I or anyone else would form a clan if Tuluk was closed.

It means that when you're traveling up north, the only reason you'd hang around for a long time would be because you did something wrong in allanak and need a hideout. Then people would think that anyone that's lived long in Tuluk Market is a theif.

What the hell? Where did this come from? People will still require the resources only available in the north, which will not change so people won't only go up there to "hideout" like you said. Besides, if someone wants a "hideout" Red Storm is underused and a better place to do so.

It means that when we go north, the only reason for this is because we would be greedy bastards looking for northern supplies to sell back in allanak.

Ok, what is wrong with greedy PCs if it is IC to be so? I really don't get what you are trying to get at with this, please explain it to me in simple terms so that I may grasp it.

And this is only half of what it means.

No shit? Please elaborate and enlighten us on the other half.


I can see only two logical solutions to this problem:

1. Get more people to play.

Easier said than done, Arm isn't everyone’s cup of tea, and what is wrong with shutting them down while trying to recruit more people to play as well? And then when there is a larger player base things could be reopened.

and 2. Hold your own friggen RPTs and you'll get more interaction.

Once again, what? When has this been about RPTs?

[Anonymous]

Consolidating people only works SO FAR.  If you put the whole playerbase in a room without anything to do there or a reason to interact, they're not going to do anything.  I agree with Mansa and Trenidor, if you want more pcs in your area recruit and MAKE YOUR OWN EVENTS.  Motivate them, be a leader.

Trenidor, don't call people jack asses.  

If someone wants to cut a log in the north and bring it south in 30 mins let them.  One log isn't going to affect have an impact.  If someone wants to bring a lot of logs in that manner, they'll find out why people don't generally do that often very fast.

WRONG!!!!

Bloodbath happens. It would be very interesting and bloody real quick.

[Werd]

Mansa: Clans have been closed down for playability reasons in the past, correct? So there is an established precedent of doing so and I don't see why it could or should not be done again.

[Stroker]

Many people believe (myself included) that the world is too segmented and broken up, thus making clans relatively smaller by dividing the available number of people by large numbers.

Recently there's been an influx of new players. Thus, we have a bigger pbase than we did a year ago. So .... Tuluk was open a year ago, why close it and its clans now when we have a larger pbase that can afford (more so than before) to be segmented and broken up.

[mansa]

Which clans were closed?  Blackwing?  Blackmoon?  Fale?  Gith Mesa?  Reynolte?  Ptar Ken?  Conclave?  Kohmar?  Delann?

Did they have a major part in the politics of the world of Zalanthas, or did they slowly get phased out?

Almost all of them were slowly phased out.  The players of those clans just stopped playing, or the immortals just stopped taking applications for them.

Or they joined other clans and molded into one.


It -can- be done again.  However, the original thought is to remove a WHOLE POLITICAL STRUCTURE from the game.   In my eyes, it would make a WHOLE DIFFERENT GAME that we would play if the original thought was done.

It might be done again, for one clan, but a whole city would be a very BAD idea.

[Anonymous]

Werd is an egotistical maniac whos thoughts are unfounded and probably an implement of the devil or aliens. But not to derail I vote yes.

[Angela Christine]

I think I see a thread locking in our future.  :sigh:


AC

[spawnloser]

Okay, for everyone that is saying that Tuluk should be closed, tell me why other things shouldn't be closed.  I have heard no good reasons for closing Tuluk that could not be applied to other areas/clans including Allanak.

[UnderSeven]

I'm tottlly against this idea, but to my ealier stuff.  First off, the playerbase has been steadily growing, I don't think a single city like allanak could support it anymore.  Even if this point is disputeable, I'd rather not find out by tringing it.

Closing tuluk by force, with long time players and chars invested in it would be an extreme and rash action.  The kind of actions which are poor to make.  People would likely get fed up or frustrated and leave the game. I've had this sort of thing done to me in a game and it has that affect. Putting everyone in the same are results in bloodbaths only if the people there have reasons to fight or to rp at all.  

One of the things that makes arm nice is the  myriad of people and organizations pushing nd pulling. It keeps us from having a two sided thing going.  Clans that get closed generally are a slow process.

Sometimes different areas suffer from lack of people, closing down areas is not the answer.  You just can't force someone to play somewhere by an invisible hand moving them, it's just not fun.

[moab]

I, for one, can't figure out what the North was ever rebuilt.  At the time there was a discussion about the number of the players and the need for two cities.  I still believe that two cities are unneeded.

I would have rather seen just Luirs Outpost, a small village near the ruins of the city and maybe a few human nomdic tribes up there.

When Tuluk fell it gave Northerners something to struggle against.  Now with Tuluk so massive and successful it has become all the things that were wrong with Tuluk to begin with (except you can map it now).

I particularly have a problem with how Tuluk has become so advanced and rich so quickly after its fall.  It seem forced and not real.

The world should be mostly brutal with spots of peace and beauty - Tuluk violates this rule in a million different ways.