Close the northern noble houses?

[Angela Christine]

In other threads people have suggested closing the northern noble houses.  I wanted to throw in my two cents, but I decided not to derail, and instead deadicate an entire thread to the topic.



My possition:

Don't close the northern Noble houses, unless you close Tuluk entirely.  I had a Tuluki Templar not long after the liberation, and without nobles the whole society feels flat and one dimensional.  It feels like a small town instead of a city.

Closing a city isn't as radical idea as it may at first seem.  Tulukis are already have xenophobic tendancies:  they hate foriegners, they hate magickers, they hate things that go bump in the night.  They have faced all sorts of unpleasant things comming in and causing trouble.  The fact is that they don't really -need- much by way of world-wide trade.

How would they get by?

1)  Farming.  There is plenty of unused land inside the scaen, probably more than is occupied by the Allanaki farming communties.  There is also a large valley of fertile land directly north of the city, land that is apparently only accessible by way of the north road out of the city, because natural terrain features effectively wall it in on the other three sides.

2)  A trading post.  Build a trading post attatched to one of the gates, about the size of the current tribal market, perhaps a little larger since it would include some living quarters.  Traders are allowed into the post, but not into the city itself.  Virtual loggers, hunters, bards and spies from the city could enter and leave though the trading post, but foriegners, exiles and undesirables would not be allowed through the inner gate into the city.  The trading post would have stables, an inn, and a wagon yard, so the actual gate into the city could be quite small, too small for bahamets and a nasty bottleneck for invading armies.  

From the PC point of view the Metropolis of Tuluk would be replaced by the small, busy trading post near Tuluk.  The city itself would be shut off for PCs, but would not cease to exist, so at a later time it could be re-opened without needing to completely rebuild.

Presumably the major trading houses would still have holdings inside Tuluk itself, but they would be managed by the virtual employees of the houses.  Deliveries and pickups would be done via the trading post.  Each merchant house could keep a small contingent at the trading post if they wanted to, living in a wagon if necessary, but if the clan numbers dwindled they could easily be "transfered" to Allanak or other centers.


Where to put the trading post?  This is the genius part.  Last I heard (and that was quite a while ago) the Renolte estate was still sitting idle.  This would be the perfect location.  We aren't talking some scummy place like the Kurac trading post at Luir's Outpost, Tuluk is still a place of refinement and would want foriegners to know that.  The mansion itself is a lovely location that could easily accomidate a tavern, an inn, half a dozen shops, and still have room for goverment offices.  The "back yard" would probably be reserved for the Templarate, but that is fenced in so it wouldn't be a problem to keep out the rabble.  Like most estates there is a wagon yard and stables, and it wouldn't take much re-tooling to make these work like public stables.  The old Renolte guard barracks could be used for the legionairs stationed in the trading post, or the legionairs could bunk in the city and the barracks could be made into a public tavern and sleeping area, one not quite as classy as the one in the mansion.  Peddlers that didn't rate a shop inside the masion could wander or set up tents in the front yard, there is more than enough room there for another 5-10 NPC merchants.  The Renolte estate is at the end of the now-unused Dol Takir road, rather than the busy North Road, but I'm sure the caravans would soon trample the scrub into a path or dirt road connecting the two.  The Renolte estate is beautiful, but it was tainted by decades of Borsail occupation, and superstitious Tuluki's would probably consider it unlucky since it is the home of a dead House.  It has the advantage of being outside the scaen, but still enclosed by it's own walls.  If invaders burst through into Tuluk at that point, they find themselves on a long road boarded by walls on each side, which would be easy to defend.

Doing a turtle manuver (gurth manuver?) and tucking in would be entirely compatable with the Tuluki psyche.  The Sun King and his minnions stayed walled up in the Ivory pyramid with relatively little outside contact for decades.  If it was good enough for the Sun King, it is good enough for Joe commoner.  The vast majority of commoners would be happy to never leave the city, and to have all forigeners exiled.

The northlands would still be a valid starting location, but you would be assumed to come from one ragtag villages outside the scaien, from a family that gave up Tuluki citizenship for easy access to the forests and the plains.  Basically, for PCs, it would be returned to the small-town feel it had before the liberation.  In the future the city could easily be re-opened, if there were numbers to support two full cities with nobles, templars, etc.


AC

[Delirium]

Wow. That's a pretty sweeping idea, but... I have to say, I kinda like it.

There are two main problems I see with implimenting it:

1) Tuluk owes much gratitude to several tribes for its liberation. I don't really see it kicking out those particular tribals, though that could be easily enough solved by allowing only those tribes to remain within the city, and to have a tent or stall in the new 'trading post' just outside the city. All the rest would just get shifted over to the trading post and kept out of the city proper.

2) The bigger problem: There are players of nobles and templars in Tuluk that have put a TON of work and time into their characters, and I would hate to see them have to lose it. That could be solved by allowing them to keep their roles until they die or retire, and simply not accepting any more new Tuluki noble or templar roles.

Make it not too out of place to see the occasional noble and his/her contigent of guards visit the trading post, especially if there's an upscale tavern - it's even very close to the noble's quarter, so it would make plenty of sense. That would allow them to interact with the playerbase and keep them from being completely and unfairly cut off.

What about Noble House guards and soldiers? Well, Tuluk should already be very picky about who it chooses, but the role could be even more difficult to get by absolutely requiring that any noble House employees be citizens of the city; I believe that's already the case for soldiers. It could also be solved by releasing all the PC guards and aides from duty when the noble that hired them dies, under the excuse that they were the noble's 'personal contigent'. So, when the nobles and templars that exist now finally move on (if they ever do) the regular PCs left in the city would move on as well. Yet, they (the Noble House employees and the nobles and Templars) wouldn't be unfairly cut off from interaction, because all they'd have to do is visit the trading post, which would be very conveniently close to the noble and templarate quarters.

Heh, I've talked myself into really liking this idea.

[wizturbo]

I really like this concept AC.  Right now, the player population is very spread out.  I sign on, 40 people online, and I might go hours without bumping into anyone.  This would centralize the 'city' population in Allanak, and provide much more interaction on that level.  It'll also send more population to the rest of the game, to the tribal clans like Tan Muark, and those spice sifting Red Stormers.

A few comments though:

1.  What do you do with the current Tuluki citizen PC's?  Retire them?  Exile them?  Sure, its easy enough for the merchant houses to say, "Alright boys, we're moving to our southern branches, pack up the wagon is going."  

But for those who don't belong to such a house...it leaves the question what do you do with those characters.  My solution, let them stay in the trading post area.  That is where all the Tuluki interaction will be centralize, so its not that big a deal.

Also, what happens to the roleplaying possibilities of being a 'foreigner' in Allanak.  If Tuluk is still left as a starting location (the trading post) then I suppose that would solve the problem, as PC's could head over to Allanak from there and retain their northern accent and what not.

[Armaddict]

All I gotta say is this:

Do it.  Allanak wins.

[spawnloser]

I will say that I don't like this reason for the reasons that Delirium mentioned would be problems in implementing the idea...and even some of the things she mentioned later.

It isn't just the nobles, though.  There are quite a few characters up in Tuluk that have been there for longer than a year...that are either nobles or have taken life oaths to the noble houses they work for.  I am AGAINST the idea of changing history to allow them to be let go just for the convenience of implementing such an idea.

[Malken]

I like your idea, AC.. Right now I feel like the playerbase is -way- too spread.. A little spread is good, but you know there's something wrong when you can't find anyone to RP with in any of the taverns in Allanak when "Who" shows 30+ players..

[Quirk]

I like your idea, AC.. Right now I feel like the playerbase is -way- too spread.. A little spread is good, but you know there's something wrong when you can't find anyone to RP with in any of the taverns in Allanak when "Who" shows 30+ players..

Eh. Could it be that you're looking in the daytime? I'm generally not playing at peak times, mostly at the 30-40 player mark, and there's almost always someone in at least one of the taverns through the nights. Granted, they may be in a tavern I don't frequent much because it's incompatible with my character's social class, but there are plenty of people round. To be honest, if there were fewer extremely raw newbies I'd be happier, playerbase drop or not - their numbers seem just a bit too high at present.

And no, I think it would be silly to shut Tuluk down. It provides a wider range of workable roles than 'Nak. There's more room for hunters, crafters can survive far more easily, they have their Noble and Merchant Houses for those who wish to play in them, and it's even possible to do well as a thiefly type if you're resourceful. There are bunny-huggers, and intrigue on any meaningful level is often lacking, but I find it a far more playable environment than 'Nak in enough other ways that I think it balances.

I don't think either should be shut down.

Quirk

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'm all for it.  It's about time we "correct" Tuluk.

[Jacques]

While I love the idea of SOMEONE making use of the Reynolte estate, I can't really agree with the concept of shutting down Tuluk.  In all honesty, based on number of players (from my personal experience only - your results may vary), you'd be better off shutting down all of the desert elf tribes, and the northern human tribes as well, if reducing "player spread" is your concern. For myself, I've played PC's in both Tuluk and Allanak recently, and have never had an extended period where I went without RP if I wanted it - and I play mostly during off-peak hours. So the whole concept of "spread" isn't really one I understand very well. Now, I might not find the exact PERSON I want (Never a Byn Sergeant around when you need one, is there  :wink: ), but when I want to, there's usually someone in the Sanc or the Tooth in Tuluk, or in the Gaj or the Barrel in 'Nak.

Conceptually, I really like the idea Tuluk represents - a city completely different in outlook from Allanak (which is the default city for the game), but still very human, with a much more general emphasis on the arts (meaning commoners are into them as well, sometimes). I like the fact that people from each region are not trusted by the other. I like the fact that if you wanted, you could probably set up a very profitable trade by running wooden goods from Tuluk to Allanak, and obsidian goods up to Tuluk. In short - I like the fact that there is more than one large human population center, and that you've got different options when creating your characters.

(And yes, there's also Red Storm, another city I'm quite fond of, but I won't go there for this post)

[Vettrock]

Personally I vote that we shut down Allanak, as I like the northlands a lot better for my rangers....

Except when I'm playing and Magicker, then I want Tuluk shut down....

Actually I think its fine the way it is...  Even if you make Tuluk a small post, and close down the noble houses, your still going to have a significant number of players up there, so what have you really solved.  Back when it was just the northlands under the occupation, I don't think there was really that much fewer players up than there is now.  Even then they had some Templars and for a short time Noble house representation, If you don't have this you just have lawlessness, or a criminal system that is completely NPC driven.

[marko]

I agree with Quirk.  Close neither city.

I do not see a good reason as to why one would close Tuluk.  Personally, I love Tuluk and the way it is described.  I think the imms that have worked on Tuluk have done an amazing job.  

I've had the pleasure of visiting both cities in the recent past and from what I can tell, it seems that both have a fair number of PCs.  

I do not think that closing Tuluk at this time would have a positive impact on the game.  Nor do I feel that turning Tuluk into a trading post makes a lot of sense.  

Now, from a purely 'fair' standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to close Allanak?  After all, Tuluk was closed already.  Therefore, in the grand scheme of things, shouldn't it be Allanak's turn? Although, you can argue that before Tuluk Allanak was closed during the siege of Allanak... hmm... therefore, we've had the following progression of closures - Allanak, Tuluk, Red Storm, Luir's... so, do we do the full circle and close Allanak again?

From a historical and cultural point of view - it makes more sense to close a decaying empire rather than a new empire.  Allanak is deep within its decay.  It recently lost 80% of its land.  It is beset at every corner by enemies who apparently are stronger and more intelligent (after all, it did lose the north and 'middle').  Allanak has turned upon itself - there are bodies piled in the streets (and this time not from famine as best as I can tell).  Therefore, I can see Allanak closing its gates to further protect itself.

Tuluk on the other hand is the rising empire.  The city has the vibrancy that is found in a young and expanding empire.  The people still have a living memory of victory after victory.  The populace knows that the tribes of the north are allied with them and are a major part of the reason they won back the north.  Basically, I see Tuluk as wanting to be as open as possible to traders and outsiders.  After all, the majority of Tulukis didn't originally come from Tuluk - they were spread out and only came back to Tuluk after the construction was completed.  These people's recent ancestors did not live in Tuluk - they lived in the surrounding regions or in the three villages.  

Sure, Tulukis hate magickers and have a 'repression' based on an old style communist regime (you speak out against the government you dissapear) but I don't know if I'd classify them as xenophobic.  As best I can tell there seems to be a greater population diversity in Tuluk than there is in Allanak.

[Anonymous]

My favorite timeframe with this mud was when Tuluk was the Northlands and had a real pioneer feel to it.  Everyone was a hunter or a Kadian.  It cost stamina to walk from the Sanctuary to Freils.  Allanak was the place for social intrigue.

The dichotomy was such that you got a really good dose of either city/social RP in Allanak or outdoorsy/exploration RP in the Northlands.  Now, due to the playerbase distribution, you have a watered-down version of city/social RP in Allanak and Tuluk.

Broken record time - The proliferation of clans with open positions has not been proportionate with the increase in the playerbase.  Jobs should be in high demand, not available at any turn.

I don't think Tuluk needs to be or should be shutdown.  I do think that targeted clan closings can help bring about a necessary adjustment to help better focus RP in the two locations.

Used to be that you had 5 noble/templar clans open for play.  Tor, Borsail, Oash, Fale and Allanaki Templars.  Even with just those five clans, you often had spells where a given house would have no PC represenation or there might not be a Templar around often.  Now the active playerbase has increased, but not to the extent that you can support noble/templar roles for Tor, Borsail, Oash, Allanaki Templars, Lirathan Templars, Jihaen Templars, Winrothol and Tenneshi.  There is a finite number of players at any given time that are going to have the desire to play those roles.

In order for a noble player to make an impact in the game socially, I believe that each clan needs at least two active PCs each.  This leaves plenty of opportunity for intra-house and inter-house conflict/romance/competition.

I don't want Tenneshi/Winrothol shut down.  What I want is for noble houses to be an active presence in the game as much as I believe they used to be when there was a greater concentration of nobles in Allanak.  In order to do that I think you need to have that same sort of concentration of noble roles in one city.  But any other alternative would be better.

I may be over-romanticizing the past, but personally I long for the days when whole noble entourages used to come into the Trader's and gather around the large table in the back.  I remember playing a Borsail noble sitting at a table with two templars, a Templar's wife, a Tor, two Fales and an Oash.  I don't believe, short of an RPT, something like that happens very often.  Yet at the time I was playing that noble it was a pretty regular occurance.  It was a blast too.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I disagree with closing Tuluk as well.  It is a solution to a problem that I don't believe exists... and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Pantoufle]

How about we shut no one down and just pick the roles which intrigue us the most?  The grass is always greener on the other side.  I do remember a time when there was only one city-state and a far more condensed game (with a player size not unlike what you see today) and everyone on the GDB then was begging for more clans, more options.  The complaint of many was "Why is there only one city-state?"  Lo and behold when more is provided, now there seems to be a cry for how it once was.  There are some clans which are almost always devoid of PCs, but you know what?  I'm still glad they're there.

All I can say is, be careful what you wish for.

[Malken]

Well, I wasn't really in favor of shutting down Tuluk, just to make it smaller..

One of the problem I've noticed lately with my character (Just your typical commoner/warrior/guy-with-an-armor-and-a-sword, nothing exceptional) is that I feel like the nobles, Lords and Ladies, are actually -fighting- over one another to employ me in their House.. It almost feels like there is so many options right now, so many open clans, that everyone is fighting to hire me in their clan, almost ignoring the fact that I'm just your typical commoner, and that it should be an honor for me to be part of the clan, not something I could just ask for, bow a little, be slightly polite, and I'll be in..

Clans who would only hire the best of the best, are currently willing to pay for me to join them or bend the rules a little and if I tell them I'm not interested at the moment, they almost feel insulted..

Is it because there is too many open clans right now, or because the playerbase is way too spread out and everyone wants to add players to their clans?

[Pantoufle]

Malken, everyone does want to add players to their clan.  And whether the clan currently has a surplus of players or is very dead, recruiters will still bend a little realism to hire you because you are a PC, not an NPC.

If you don't want to join a clan, don't.  Who gives a toss if every noble and their brother is swamping upon you.  That's what they're there for!  Sure, yeah, maybe it'd be more realistic if they demonstrated just how valuable these positions really are -- and some do while still keeping the doors of opportunity open, provided that you, too, play out the sheer value of the job you are being offered.  You also might consider, even the drabiest PC commoner (not 'Rinther) looks nicer than the average NPC commoner who is draped in a dingy aba and ragged boots.  Commoners, by and large, are living in abject poverty and do not look presentable enough for employ with merchant and noble Houses.  Players fresh out of the Hall of Kings, on the other hand, do tend to look more presetable.  You have to accept that the PCs tend to be (though not always) of finer stock than the (NPC) norm, otherwise we'll all sit around in tables ignoring each other and how much fun is that?

[My 2 sids]

I LOVE AC's idea!  I could sure see a sudden need to close it's gates after what happened.  IC it makes perfect sense.  Plus, I still think Tuluk shouldn't want to copy Nak.  It would make it a very different feeling place than just a smaller 'Nak town.  Plus, its about the time Tuluk should start building up its own economy.  The easiest way to do this is to simply reinvent its own economy instead of still having the aftermath economy of the Revolution that is currently on life support.

If however people wish to keep the city open, I'd tweek AC's idea by simply having the players understand the new Tuluk would have a whole different feel than 'Nak or the old Tuluk.  I think it would feel much more like a small town or tribe.
OOCly I see a ton of good things!  Tuluk has always been a good place to be an independent (bards, hunters, etc) and by closing the main trading houses independent merchant PCs could also thrive in Tuluk.  Along with talk about closing the main trading houses (old threads) there was also talk about PC run taverns, clans, and human tribes all of which could be found in this new Tuluk.

[Anonymous]

Who gives a toss if every noble and their brother is swamping upon you.  That's what they're there for!

I do because the job market should be full of competition.  Working for a noble house sets you as the cream of the crop among commoners, according to the social-rankings sheet, but due to the vast number of open jobs, it's turned those roles into the Zalanthan equivalent of getting a job at McDonald's.

Sure, yeah, maybe it'd be more realistic if they demonstrated just how valuable these positions really are -- and some do while still keeping the doors of opportunity open, provided that you, too, play out the sheer value of the job you are being offered.

The only way for players to demonstrate how valuable those positions are is to not hire unworthy PCs and resolve themselves to having very few other players in their clan.  That's not fair.

There are just too many jobs out there, and it has had a negative impact on the game.

[Cuusardo]

Don't close Tuluk.  It's still rebuilding itself, and flourishing and brings much roleplay to the game.

On that note, the two noble houses that are open in Tuluk do get quite a bit of PCs who go to them seeking work.  Closing them down is a bad idea.

[MSM]

This is just to deal a spread out player base right?

Better idea. Everyone donate $20 bucks right now and go on a blitzkrieg ad compaign across every rp and mud ring we can think of, linking to our positive reviews and/or docs.

Don't shrink. Grow.

[Mexie]

Sounds good.  I'd be willing to donate for a big ad campaign.

[Pantoufle]

Reduce the number of open clans and everyone complains about not enough options.  Offer more options and everyone complains about a spread out player base.  Which is the better option?

I think moderation is the best route.  Okay, maybe entertaining the notion of downsizing a bit is worthwhile.  But closing down an entire city-state!?  Come on.  Let's be reasonable here.

We've probably got more open desert elf tribes than are needed, I don't think clipping a little bit there would be detrimental.  Okay, maybe .. maybe considering shutting down ONE of the noble Houses (but it's only fair to shut one down if it has zero players at the time) might help things a bit, but then .. if it's already devoid of PCs, what does closing it accomplish?  Perhaps another clan or two might be considered if it's worth remaining open.

So, I don't know ... like I said, I always practice the philosophy of: be careful what you wish for.

[Anonymous]

I think moderation is the best route.  Okay, maybe entertaining the notion of downsizing a bit is worthwhile.  But closing down an entire city-state!?  Come on.  Let's be reasonable here.

That's exactly where I stand on this.  Too many people enjoy Tuluk, and too much work has gone into it to suddenly wipe it out.  Besides, if the playerbase does keep growing in a year or so we'd just have to open it anyways.

This is what I would consider the bare minimum for a noble house to be in good shape and highly active:

2 nobles.
2 noble aides that are invariably hired.
1 military leader PC
3-4 recruits and graduated guards.

(Fale was a different story because they rarely hired on guards, as there was only one I was aware of during the last two years of Fale's being open.)

So, that times 3 means you need around 27 PCs to flesh out Tor, Oash and Borsail, and you've got an active set of Allanaki noble houses.  That's a pretty tall order right there, but when you add Winrothol and Tenneshi into the mix you are nearing 50 PCs just to keep noble clans active for the two city states.  I believe that is just not doable given the current levels of our active playerbase.  The results are all five active noble houses seem pretty strained to even keep a few PCs, let alone organize activities to give these PCs something to do.  So, what it boils down to, for me, is that I'd rather see fewer, more active clans, than more clans without enough PCs to organize a worthwhile RPT.

The game has seen 3 clans close/go away that I am aware of, but at least 10 added or made active again in the past year or two:

Winrothol
Tenneshi
Lirathan Templars
Jihaean Templars
Akei Ta Var
Soh Lannah Kah
Sand Jakhals
Arabet
Atrium
Haruch Kamed

In the end, I'd rather see the harshness of the world realized in the struggle to survive the elements, not beefy NPCs.  In part of that, making clan jobs more a thing of competition and seeing PCs forced to go without jobs would be a positive step, to me.

[Pantoufle]

CRW, man, I hear ya.  Those are some pretty frightening statistics, just with those numbers about PCs needed to sustain a noble (or really any) clan.  And it's not as though I am opposed to seeing clans more filled up and active...

...at the same time...

It isn't mandatory for a clan to have lots of PCs.  House Kurac may not be able to go on expeditions into the desert to scout the surrounding area of Luir's Outpost if there aren't enough players, but even if there is only one PC agent or outrider composing the entire PC populous of the clan at that time, those people can still interact and involve themselves with the rest of the game world.  My clan right now has only a few PCs it seems, and I'm very glad they are there.  But even if I was the only one in the clan, I'd still be interacting with people and doing stuff that has a direct impact on my own clan (if nothing else, a clan provides a colorful background for our characters).  It sucks that maybe I can't see other aspects of my clan put into play, such as desert missions (due to not enough PCs), but I'd be fuming if someone just shut it down because they thought there weren't enough players.  To use another example, let's say the Haruch Kemad has zero players right now (and I have no idea if it does or doesn't, this is just an example), so what?  Isn't it nice to know that if you want to some day give that concept a try you can?  You don't have to have other clanmates to enjoy that role, though it's certainly nice if you do.

[Agent_137]

while on a personal level i think the "Be happy with what you got" line is great, on a larger more sweeping level, I think it cripples development.

Clans/houses/ with more than one PC are good. Many clans are short PCs. This is bad. How do we as a game population work to fix this?

Suggest options to immortals.
Get more people in the game.
and, in the mean time
Be happy with what you got.

so, keep up the discussion.

personally, I think tuluk should be kept open, but perhaps some houses closed off for recruiting.