Close the northern noble houses?

[Angela Christine]

In other threads people have suggested closing the northern noble houses.  I wanted to throw in my two cents, but I decided not to derail, and instead deadicate an entire thread to the topic.



My possition:

Don't close the northern Noble houses, unless you close Tuluk entirely.  I had a Tuluki Templar not long after the liberation, and without nobles the whole society feels flat and one dimensional.  It feels like a small town instead of a city.

Closing a city isn't as radical idea as it may at first seem.  Tulukis are already have xenophobic tendancies:  they hate foriegners, they hate magickers, they hate things that go bump in the night.  They have faced all sorts of unpleasant things comming in and causing trouble.  The fact is that they don't really -need- much by way of world-wide trade.

How would they get by?

1)  Farming.  There is plenty of unused land inside the scaen, probably more than is occupied by the Allanaki farming communties.  There is also a large valley of fertile land directly north of the city, land that is apparently only accessible by way of the north road out of the city, because natural terrain features effectively wall it in on the other three sides.

2)  A trading post.  Build a trading post attatched to one of the gates, about the size of the current tribal market, perhaps a little larger since it would include some living quarters.  Traders are allowed into the post, but not into the city itself.  Virtual loggers, hunters, bards and spies from the city could enter and leave though the trading post, but foriegners, exiles and undesirables would not be allowed through the inner gate into the city.  The trading post would have stables, an inn, and a wagon yard, so the actual gate into the city could be quite small, too small for bahamets and a nasty bottleneck for invading armies.  

From the PC point of view the Metropolis of Tuluk would be replaced by the small, busy trading post near Tuluk.  The city itself would be shut off for PCs, but would not cease to exist, so at a later time it could be re-opened without needing to completely rebuild.

Presumably the major trading houses would still have holdings inside Tuluk itself, but they would be managed by the virtual employees of the houses.  Deliveries and pickups would be done via the trading post.  Each merchant house could keep a small contingent at the trading post if they wanted to, living in a wagon if necessary, but if the clan numbers dwindled they could easily be "transfered" to Allanak or other centers.


Where to put the trading post?  This is the genius part.  Last I heard (and that was quite a while ago) the Renolte estate was still sitting idle.  This would be the perfect location.  We aren't talking some scummy place like the Kurac trading post at Luir's Outpost, Tuluk is still a place of refinement and would want foriegners to know that.  The mansion itself is a lovely location that could easily accomidate a tavern, an inn, half a dozen shops, and still have room for goverment offices.  The "back yard" would probably be reserved for the Templarate, but that is fenced in so it wouldn't be a problem to keep out the rabble.  Like most estates there is a wagon yard and stables, and it wouldn't take much re-tooling to make these work like public stables.  The old Renolte guard barracks could be used for the legionairs stationed in the trading post, or the legionairs could bunk in the city and the barracks could be made into a public tavern and sleeping area, one not quite as classy as the one in the mansion.  Peddlers that didn't rate a shop inside the masion could wander or set up tents in the front yard, there is more than enough room there for another 5-10 NPC merchants.  The Renolte estate is at the end of the now-unused Dol Takir road, rather than the busy North Road, but I'm sure the caravans would soon trample the scrub into a path or dirt road connecting the two.  The Renolte estate is beautiful, but it was tainted by decades of Borsail occupation, and superstitious Tuluki's would probably consider it unlucky since it is the home of a dead House.  It has the advantage of being outside the scaen, but still enclosed by it's own walls.  If invaders burst through into Tuluk at that point, they find themselves on a long road boarded by walls on each side, which would be easy to defend.

Doing a turtle manuver (gurth manuver?) and tucking in would be entirely compatable with the Tuluki psyche.  The Sun King and his minnions stayed walled up in the Ivory pyramid with relatively little outside contact for decades.  If it was good enough for the Sun King, it is good enough for Joe commoner.  The vast majority of commoners would be happy to never leave the city, and to have all forigeners exiled.

The northlands would still be a valid starting location, but you would be assumed to come from one ragtag villages outside the scaien, from a family that gave up Tuluki citizenship for easy access to the forests and the plains.  Basically, for PCs, it would be returned to the small-town feel it had before the liberation.  In the future the city could easily be re-opened, if there were numbers to support two full cities with nobles, templars, etc.


AC

[Delirium]

Wow. That's a pretty sweeping idea, but... I have to say, I kinda like it.

There are two main problems I see with implimenting it:

1) Tuluk owes much gratitude to several tribes for its liberation. I don't really see it kicking out those particular tribals, though that could be easily enough solved by allowing only those tribes to remain within the city, and to have a tent or stall in the new 'trading post' just outside the city. All the rest would just get shifted over to the trading post and kept out of the city proper.

2) The bigger problem: There are players of nobles and templars in Tuluk that have put a TON of work and time into their characters, and I would hate to see them have to lose it. That could be solved by allowing them to keep their roles until they die or retire, and simply not accepting any more new Tuluki noble or templar roles.

Make it not too out of place to see the occasional noble and his/her contigent of guards visit the trading post, especially if there's an upscale tavern - it's even very close to the noble's quarter, so it would make plenty of sense. That would allow them to interact with the playerbase and keep them from being completely and unfairly cut off.

What about Noble House guards and soldiers? Well, Tuluk should already be very picky about who it chooses, but the role could be even more difficult to get by absolutely requiring that any noble House employees be citizens of the city; I believe that's already the case for soldiers. It could also be solved by releasing all the PC guards and aides from duty when the noble that hired them dies, under the excuse that they were the noble's 'personal contigent'. So, when the nobles and templars that exist now finally move on (if they ever do) the regular PCs left in the city would move on as well. Yet, they (the Noble House employees and the nobles and Templars) wouldn't be unfairly cut off from interaction, because all they'd have to do is visit the trading post, which would be very conveniently close to the noble and templarate quarters.

Heh, I've talked myself into really liking this idea.

[wizturbo]

I really like this concept AC.  Right now, the player population is very spread out.  I sign on, 40 people online, and I might go hours without bumping into anyone.  This would centralize the 'city' population in Allanak, and provide much more interaction on that level.  It'll also send more population to the rest of the game, to the tribal clans like Tan Muark, and those spice sifting Red Stormers.

A few comments though:

1.  What do you do with the current Tuluki citizen PC's?  Retire them?  Exile them?  Sure, its easy enough for the merchant houses to say, "Alright boys, we're moving to our southern branches, pack up the wagon is going."  

But for those who don't belong to such a house...it leaves the question what do you do with those characters.  My solution, let them stay in the trading post area.  That is where all the Tuluki interaction will be centralize, so its not that big a deal.

Also, what happens to the roleplaying possibilities of being a 'foreigner' in Allanak.  If Tuluk is still left as a starting location (the trading post) then I suppose that would solve the problem, as PC's could head over to Allanak from there and retain their northern accent and what not.

[Armaddict]

All I gotta say is this:

Do it.  Allanak wins.

[spawnloser]

I will say that I don't like this reason for the reasons that Delirium mentioned would be problems in implementing the idea...and even some of the things she mentioned later.

It isn't just the nobles, though.  There are quite a few characters up in Tuluk that have been there for longer than a year...that are either nobles or have taken life oaths to the noble houses they work for.  I am AGAINST the idea of changing history to allow them to be let go just for the convenience of implementing such an idea.

[Malken]

I like your idea, AC.. Right now I feel like the playerbase is -way- too spread.. A little spread is good, but you know there's something wrong when you can't find anyone to RP with in any of the taverns in Allanak when "Who" shows 30+ players..

[Quirk]

I like your idea, AC.. Right now I feel like the playerbase is -way- too spread.. A little spread is good, but you know there's something wrong when you can't find anyone to RP with in any of the taverns in Allanak when "Who" shows 30+ players..

Eh. Could it be that you're looking in the daytime? I'm generally not playing at peak times, mostly at the 30-40 player mark, and there's almost always someone in at least one of the taverns through the nights. Granted, they may be in a tavern I don't frequent much because it's incompatible with my character's social class, but there are plenty of people round. To be honest, if there were fewer extremely raw newbies I'd be happier, playerbase drop or not - their numbers seem just a bit too high at present.

And no, I think it would be silly to shut Tuluk down. It provides a wider range of workable roles than 'Nak. There's more room for hunters, crafters can survive far more easily, they have their Noble and Merchant Houses for those who wish to play in them, and it's even possible to do well as a thiefly type if you're resourceful. There are bunny-huggers, and intrigue on any meaningful level is often lacking, but I find it a far more playable environment than 'Nak in enough other ways that I think it balances.

I don't think either should be shut down.

Quirk

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'm all for it.  It's about time we "correct" Tuluk.

[Jacques]

While I love the idea of SOMEONE making use of the Reynolte estate, I can't really agree with the concept of shutting down Tuluk.  In all honesty, based on number of players (from my personal experience only - your results may vary), you'd be better off shutting down all of the desert elf tribes, and the northern human tribes as well, if reducing "player spread" is your concern. For myself, I've played PC's in both Tuluk and Allanak recently, and have never had an extended period where I went without RP if I wanted it - and I play mostly during off-peak hours. So the whole concept of "spread" isn't really one I understand very well. Now, I might not find the exact PERSON I want (Never a Byn Sergeant around when you need one, is there  :wink: ), but when I want to, there's usually someone in the Sanc or the Tooth in Tuluk, or in the Gaj or the Barrel in 'Nak.

Conceptually, I really like the idea Tuluk represents - a city completely different in outlook from Allanak (which is the default city for the game), but still very human, with a much more general emphasis on the arts (meaning commoners are into them as well, sometimes). I like the fact that people from each region are not trusted by the other. I like the fact that if you wanted, you could probably set up a very profitable trade by running wooden goods from Tuluk to Allanak, and obsidian goods up to Tuluk. In short - I like the fact that there is more than one large human population center, and that you've got different options when creating your characters.

(And yes, there's also Red Storm, another city I'm quite fond of, but I won't go there for this post)

[Vettrock]

Personally I vote that we shut down Allanak, as I like the northlands a lot better for my rangers....

Except when I'm playing and Magicker, then I want Tuluk shut down....

Actually I think its fine the way it is...  Even if you make Tuluk a small post, and close down the noble houses, your still going to have a significant number of players up there, so what have you really solved.  Back when it was just the northlands under the occupation, I don't think there was really that much fewer players up than there is now.  Even then they had some Templars and for a short time Noble house representation, If you don't have this you just have lawlessness, or a criminal system that is completely NPC driven.

[marko]

I agree with Quirk.  Close neither city.

I do not see a good reason as to why one would close Tuluk.  Personally, I love Tuluk and the way it is described.  I think the imms that have worked on Tuluk have done an amazing job.  

I've had the pleasure of visiting both cities in the recent past and from what I can tell, it seems that both have a fair number of PCs.  

I do not think that closing Tuluk at this time would have a positive impact on the game.  Nor do I feel that turning Tuluk into a trading post makes a lot of sense.  

Now, from a purely 'fair' standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to close Allanak?  After all, Tuluk was closed already.  Therefore, in the grand scheme of things, shouldn't it be Allanak's turn? Although, you can argue that before Tuluk Allanak was closed during the siege of Allanak... hmm... therefore, we've had the following progression of closures - Allanak, Tuluk, Red Storm, Luir's... so, do we do the full circle and close Allanak again?

From a historical and cultural point of view - it makes more sense to close a decaying empire rather than a new empire.  Allanak is deep within its decay.  It recently lost 80% of its land.  It is beset at every corner by enemies who apparently are stronger and more intelligent (after all, it did lose the north and 'middle').  Allanak has turned upon itself - there are bodies piled in the streets (and this time not from famine as best as I can tell).  Therefore, I can see Allanak closing its gates to further protect itself.

Tuluk on the other hand is the rising empire.  The city has the vibrancy that is found in a young and expanding empire.  The people still have a living memory of victory after victory.  The populace knows that the tribes of the north are allied with them and are a major part of the reason they won back the north.  Basically, I see Tuluk as wanting to be as open as possible to traders and outsiders.  After all, the majority of Tulukis didn't originally come from Tuluk - they were spread out and only came back to Tuluk after the construction was completed.  These people's recent ancestors did not live in Tuluk - they lived in the surrounding regions or in the three villages.  

Sure, Tulukis hate magickers and have a 'repression' based on an old style communist regime (you speak out against the government you dissapear) but I don't know if I'd classify them as xenophobic.  As best I can tell there seems to be a greater population diversity in Tuluk than there is in Allanak.

[Anonymous]

My favorite timeframe with this mud was when Tuluk was the Northlands and had a real pioneer feel to it.  Everyone was a hunter or a Kadian.  It cost stamina to walk from the Sanctuary to Freils.  Allanak was the place for social intrigue.

The dichotomy was such that you got a really good dose of either city/social RP in Allanak or outdoorsy/exploration RP in the Northlands.  Now, due to the playerbase distribution, you have a watered-down version of city/social RP in Allanak and Tuluk.

Broken record time - The proliferation of clans with open positions has not been proportionate with the increase in the playerbase.  Jobs should be in high demand, not available at any turn.

I don't think Tuluk needs to be or should be shutdown.  I do think that targeted clan closings can help bring about a necessary adjustment to help better focus RP in the two locations.

Used to be that you had 5 noble/templar clans open for play.  Tor, Borsail, Oash, Fale and Allanaki Templars.  Even with just those five clans, you often had spells where a given house would have no PC represenation or there might not be a Templar around often.  Now the active playerbase has increased, but not to the extent that you can support noble/templar roles for Tor, Borsail, Oash, Allanaki Templars, Lirathan Templars, Jihaen Templars, Winrothol and Tenneshi.  There is a finite number of players at any given time that are going to have the desire to play those roles.

In order for a noble player to make an impact in the game socially, I believe that each clan needs at least two active PCs each.  This leaves plenty of opportunity for intra-house and inter-house conflict/romance/competition.

I don't want Tenneshi/Winrothol shut down.  What I want is for noble houses to be an active presence in the game as much as I believe they used to be when there was a greater concentration of nobles in Allanak.  In order to do that I think you need to have that same sort of concentration of noble roles in one city.  But any other alternative would be better.

I may be over-romanticizing the past, but personally I long for the days when whole noble entourages used to come into the Trader's and gather around the large table in the back.  I remember playing a Borsail noble sitting at a table with two templars, a Templar's wife, a Tor, two Fales and an Oash.  I don't believe, short of an RPT, something like that happens very often.  Yet at the time I was playing that noble it was a pretty regular occurance.  It was a blast too.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I disagree with closing Tuluk as well.  It is a solution to a problem that I don't believe exists... and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Pantoufle]

How about we shut no one down and just pick the roles which intrigue us the most?  The grass is always greener on the other side.  I do remember a time when there was only one city-state and a far more condensed game (with a player size not unlike what you see today) and everyone on the GDB then was begging for more clans, more options.  The complaint of many was "Why is there only one city-state?"  Lo and behold when more is provided, now there seems to be a cry for how it once was.  There are some clans which are almost always devoid of PCs, but you know what?  I'm still glad they're there.

All I can say is, be careful what you wish for.

[Malken]

Well, I wasn't really in favor of shutting down Tuluk, just to make it smaller..

One of the problem I've noticed lately with my character (Just your typical commoner/warrior/guy-with-an-armor-and-a-sword, nothing exceptional) is that I feel like the nobles, Lords and Ladies, are actually -fighting- over one another to employ me in their House.. It almost feels like there is so many options right now, so many open clans, that everyone is fighting to hire me in their clan, almost ignoring the fact that I'm just your typical commoner, and that it should be an honor for me to be part of the clan, not something I could just ask for, bow a little, be slightly polite, and I'll be in..

Clans who would only hire the best of the best, are currently willing to pay for me to join them or bend the rules a little and if I tell them I'm not interested at the moment, they almost feel insulted..

Is it because there is too many open clans right now, or because the playerbase is way too spread out and everyone wants to add players to their clans?

[Pantoufle]

Malken, everyone does want to add players to their clan.  And whether the clan currently has a surplus of players or is very dead, recruiters will still bend a little realism to hire you because you are a PC, not an NPC.

If you don't want to join a clan, don't.  Who gives a toss if every noble and their brother is swamping upon you.  That's what they're there for!  Sure, yeah, maybe it'd be more realistic if they demonstrated just how valuable these positions really are -- and some do while still keeping the doors of opportunity open, provided that you, too, play out the sheer value of the job you are being offered.  You also might consider, even the drabiest PC commoner (not 'Rinther) looks nicer than the average NPC commoner who is draped in a dingy aba and ragged boots.  Commoners, by and large, are living in abject poverty and do not look presentable enough for employ with merchant and noble Houses.  Players fresh out of the Hall of Kings, on the other hand, do tend to look more presetable.  You have to accept that the PCs tend to be (though not always) of finer stock than the (NPC) norm, otherwise we'll all sit around in tables ignoring each other and how much fun is that?

[My 2 sids]

I LOVE AC's idea!  I could sure see a sudden need to close it's gates after what happened.  IC it makes perfect sense.  Plus, I still think Tuluk shouldn't want to copy Nak.  It would make it a very different feeling place than just a smaller 'Nak town.  Plus, its about the time Tuluk should start building up its own economy.  The easiest way to do this is to simply reinvent its own economy instead of still having the aftermath economy of the Revolution that is currently on life support.

If however people wish to keep the city open, I'd tweek AC's idea by simply having the players understand the new Tuluk would have a whole different feel than 'Nak or the old Tuluk.  I think it would feel much more like a small town or tribe.
OOCly I see a ton of good things!  Tuluk has always been a good place to be an independent (bards, hunters, etc) and by closing the main trading houses independent merchant PCs could also thrive in Tuluk.  Along with talk about closing the main trading houses (old threads) there was also talk about PC run taverns, clans, and human tribes all of which could be found in this new Tuluk.

[Anonymous]

Who gives a toss if every noble and their brother is swamping upon you.  That's what they're there for!

I do because the job market should be full of competition.  Working for a noble house sets you as the cream of the crop among commoners, according to the social-rankings sheet, but due to the vast number of open jobs, it's turned those roles into the Zalanthan equivalent of getting a job at McDonald's.

Sure, yeah, maybe it'd be more realistic if they demonstrated just how valuable these positions really are -- and some do while still keeping the doors of opportunity open, provided that you, too, play out the sheer value of the job you are being offered.

The only way for players to demonstrate how valuable those positions are is to not hire unworthy PCs and resolve themselves to having very few other players in their clan.  That's not fair.

There are just too many jobs out there, and it has had a negative impact on the game.

[Cuusardo]

Don't close Tuluk.  It's still rebuilding itself, and flourishing and brings much roleplay to the game.

On that note, the two noble houses that are open in Tuluk do get quite a bit of PCs who go to them seeking work.  Closing them down is a bad idea.

[MSM]

This is just to deal a spread out player base right?

Better idea. Everyone donate $20 bucks right now and go on a blitzkrieg ad compaign across every rp and mud ring we can think of, linking to our positive reviews and/or docs.

Don't shrink. Grow.

[Mexie]

Sounds good.  I'd be willing to donate for a big ad campaign.

[Pantoufle]

Reduce the number of open clans and everyone complains about not enough options.  Offer more options and everyone complains about a spread out player base.  Which is the better option?

I think moderation is the best route.  Okay, maybe entertaining the notion of downsizing a bit is worthwhile.  But closing down an entire city-state!?  Come on.  Let's be reasonable here.

We've probably got more open desert elf tribes than are needed, I don't think clipping a little bit there would be detrimental.  Okay, maybe .. maybe considering shutting down ONE of the noble Houses (but it's only fair to shut one down if it has zero players at the time) might help things a bit, but then .. if it's already devoid of PCs, what does closing it accomplish?  Perhaps another clan or two might be considered if it's worth remaining open.

So, I don't know ... like I said, I always practice the philosophy of: be careful what you wish for.

[Anonymous]

I think moderation is the best route.  Okay, maybe entertaining the notion of downsizing a bit is worthwhile.  But closing down an entire city-state!?  Come on.  Let's be reasonable here.

That's exactly where I stand on this.  Too many people enjoy Tuluk, and too much work has gone into it to suddenly wipe it out.  Besides, if the playerbase does keep growing in a year or so we'd just have to open it anyways.

This is what I would consider the bare minimum for a noble house to be in good shape and highly active:

2 nobles.
2 noble aides that are invariably hired.
1 military leader PC
3-4 recruits and graduated guards.

(Fale was a different story because they rarely hired on guards, as there was only one I was aware of during the last two years of Fale's being open.)

So, that times 3 means you need around 27 PCs to flesh out Tor, Oash and Borsail, and you've got an active set of Allanaki noble houses.  That's a pretty tall order right there, but when you add Winrothol and Tenneshi into the mix you are nearing 50 PCs just to keep noble clans active for the two city states.  I believe that is just not doable given the current levels of our active playerbase.  The results are all five active noble houses seem pretty strained to even keep a few PCs, let alone organize activities to give these PCs something to do.  So, what it boils down to, for me, is that I'd rather see fewer, more active clans, than more clans without enough PCs to organize a worthwhile RPT.

The game has seen 3 clans close/go away that I am aware of, but at least 10 added or made active again in the past year or two:

Winrothol
Tenneshi
Lirathan Templars
Jihaean Templars
Akei Ta Var
Soh Lannah Kah
Sand Jakhals
Arabet
Atrium
Haruch Kamed

In the end, I'd rather see the harshness of the world realized in the struggle to survive the elements, not beefy NPCs.  In part of that, making clan jobs more a thing of competition and seeing PCs forced to go without jobs would be a positive step, to me.

[Pantoufle]

CRW, man, I hear ya.  Those are some pretty frightening statistics, just with those numbers about PCs needed to sustain a noble (or really any) clan.  And it's not as though I am opposed to seeing clans more filled up and active...

...at the same time...

It isn't mandatory for a clan to have lots of PCs.  House Kurac may not be able to go on expeditions into the desert to scout the surrounding area of Luir's Outpost if there aren't enough players, but even if there is only one PC agent or outrider composing the entire PC populous of the clan at that time, those people can still interact and involve themselves with the rest of the game world.  My clan right now has only a few PCs it seems, and I'm very glad they are there.  But even if I was the only one in the clan, I'd still be interacting with people and doing stuff that has a direct impact on my own clan (if nothing else, a clan provides a colorful background for our characters).  It sucks that maybe I can't see other aspects of my clan put into play, such as desert missions (due to not enough PCs), but I'd be fuming if someone just shut it down because they thought there weren't enough players.  To use another example, let's say the Haruch Kemad has zero players right now (and I have no idea if it does or doesn't, this is just an example), so what?  Isn't it nice to know that if you want to some day give that concept a try you can?  You don't have to have other clanmates to enjoy that role, though it's certainly nice if you do.

[Agent_137]

while on a personal level i think the "Be happy with what you got" line is great, on a larger more sweeping level, I think it cripples development.

Clans/houses/ with more than one PC are good. Many clans are short PCs. This is bad. How do we as a game population work to fix this?

Suggest options to immortals.
Get more people in the game.
and, in the mean time
Be happy with what you got.

so, keep up the discussion.

personally, I think tuluk should be kept open, but perhaps some houses closed off for recruiting.

[Anonymous]

When we talk about clans being short for PCs 99 times out of 100, we are talking about the guard roles.  Most clans do not want for non-combat leadership or for merchants/aides/advisors/agents/etc.  And the reason why guard roles are so understaffed is because the job is redundant.  In any of the major locations you have not only crim code, but city/village miltia and clanned NPC guards providing a deterrant for open attack.  So, as a result, the cycle Malken talked about is what guard PCs end up doing, with the exception of a few clans.  Spar, rest, spar, tavern sit.  Spar, rest, spar, bazaar shopping.  People who say it is all up to the player to inject variety into their PC's schedule are not taking into account the heavy role scheduled guard training plays in a guard PC's daily activities.  It is very, very difficult to engage in any significant roleplay when 6 out of the 9 parts of the day are taken up by assigned training.  This is not always the case, but in most places it is.

Which is why I believe more clans should have clan activities much in the same way that cities and villages have local activities.

In Red Storm you can gather spice.  In Allanak you can get obsidian, salt or rocks.  In Tuluk you can get wood and flowers or dig up clay.  The same sort of focus for each clan, as a part of that clan's guard's focus, would make clan guard positions much more attractive.

• Borsail could have regular slaving runs to grab gith and tarantulas for the Arena.  They even used to have cages just for this activity which was a blast.
• Tor and the militias could engage in daily patrols outside the city in a certain perimeter.  Not only is this a chance to come across some combat, but there's always a good chance of being able to rough up some elf or find a corpse.
• Merchant houses could have their guards assigned to gather local resources or hunt to fulfill crafter needs.

Same with other clans.  Because, ultimately, I believe that the guard roles for almost every single clan need to be given more to do than spar because having regular sparring partners and a source for food just does not balance out with the rules imposed on your PC, which is why I believe a large portion of the combat-oriented PCs do not opt to join a clan.

[Werd]

I think it is a great idea AC, as I think Armageddon could only benefit from bringing the player base closer together. When more players are in closer proximity it will breed tension and tension would build conflict leading to a much more interesting atmosphere to the mud and more "harshness" that most people seem to desire. As it is now the player base is spread too thin and there is not much noticeable strife. Allow the people who have characters in those houses currently to play their characters until they die or retire, but don't take on any new people into them.

[Malken]

Exactly, CRW! Unfortunatly, you'll probably have the usual players who will find something to disagree with you, and our ideas will probably be lost in a pile of arguments *sighs*

But I agree 110% with you, and that's also what I was writing about in my other post.

[Trenidor]

What's Zalanthas turing to?!?!?!?!?!?!?

We can't shut down a whole city for PCs. Things are fine the way they are. I'm so opposed to this idea that if this happened I'd dedicate my life to the destruction of allanak.

The only way to get anything done about the spreadout of people on arm is to make friend IRL and send them in to play arm.

[Callisto]

I completely support ACs idea.

[Dakkon Black]

I'm in support of more conflict, more Pc to Pc plots and such. If that means shutting down a city so that we can have a more concentrated game play area so be it.

Would I rather see 120 players on filling both cities? Yes.

Will having Tuluk shut down kill the north? No.

Not as long as that reynolte place stays open for people up there, you can have your rangers etc.

It's not the ideal solution, but unless each one of you goes and recruits 3 people in the next week to come play what can you do?

[Trenidor]

Why not do it to nak? Keep tuluk open for people to go freely?

That'd work better because tuluk is smaller than nak...

[Agent_137]

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/63/2.html

Don't shut down Tuluk. That's silly. Close a house or two, at most.

But a superior solution is to GET MORE PLAYERS. IT ISN'T THAT HARD.

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/63/2.html

[Werd]

The idea is to close it until the player base grows large enough to easily sustain both locations, so what would be wrong in trying to get more players while it was closed off for awhile? Getting new players interested in Arm is also easier said than done. The vast majority of people who play muds want IRC with some hack and slashing thrown into it.

What's Zalanthas turing to?!?!?!?!?!?!?

We can't shut down a whole city for PCs. Things are fine the way they are. I'm so opposed to this idea that if this happened I'd dedicate my life to the destruction of allanak.

The only way to get anything done about the spreadout of people on arm is to make friend IRL and send them in to play arm.

[SpyGuy]

I like ACs idea, as long as its done realistically and with incentive (huge RPT or HRPT to force Muk to make such a drastic change).  It would add different levels to Tuluki psyche while sadly only letting players explore the role of an outsider (my term for someone living outside the city proper and therefore having the taint of the outside world).

I wont rehash all points but I agree with Werd and CRW.  The change wouldnt eleminate Tuluk, but it would eliminate the "social" roles that Noble houses supply and give it a -very- frontierish feel, something that Storm can offer but since you cant hunt or survive very well down there w/o help it doesnt and wont get a large playerbase.

An idea to maybe help the trading outpost get a real feel and to move over old nobles/templars/house guards: have the trading outpost have a core group of "insiders" (basically Tuluki nobles/templars and elite house guards) that would choose to sometimes go outside the gate to administer the farms and to keep order.  This would allow a transition for the current PCs and also a role for something other than ranger/blah in the new area.

After that open up one (or in my mind 2, but im more for multi-directional intrigue than big player numbers in individual clans) noble houses in 'nak that wouldnt need large guard Corps, like Fale or Sath.

This idea wouldnt solve all problems, and would like reopen new ones, but I dont like the current vibe of tuluk.  Thats personal preference (as in dont attack it, you wont change my mind) but I can see why people like it.  But I think ACs idea will boost Tuluk's strengths and help boosts 'naks too.

I'm rambling, good idea AC.  Kudos.

[EvilRoeSlade]

This thread is about all ideas, and not just Angela Christine's.  I shall now suggest mine.

Leave Tuluk open.  Gradually close down both noble houses, and gradually diminish the merchant house presence (as related by PC numbers) until it is totally virtual.

Create other clans.  The biggest problem with Tuluk is that we had a chance to have a -different- city from Allanak, and yet the various clans ensure that there is no difference.

Now we have a chance to do something wild.  Like create a bunch of different city elf tribes that are constantly competing for territory.  Or a bunch of different bardic troups that are constantly trying to kill each other (that's where my vote goes).  Just make Tuluk have -different- clans from Allanak.

Then we would have a chance to have a clan setup that doesn't revolve around noble and merchant houses.  I realize that this is a frightening prospect for some people, but there's still Allanak to fall back on if you absolutely must play a Noble House guard.

[Trenidor]

Why can't we just shut off the houses in tuluk for PC play...that would mean that the city would stay the same, and the nobles would still be there, just no one would ever see them. Seeing as how Tuluk isn't as harsh as Allanak, that would work because nobles don't yell at you for stupid things. Some times you don't even notice someone is a noble.

EDIT*** ERS beat me to it lol

[Larrath]

Uhh, sure, let's close Tuluk and have everyone play in Allanak.  Well, or Red Storm or the few gypsies here and there.


Tuluk gives actual spies and sabotaging people a chance to exist, and also a place to hide it (Tuluk if against South, Allanak if against North).

Tuluk has cheaper stuff in it, and can let people arrange caravan rides and make money, or import fashions.

Tuluk is friendlier to artistic characters, and this is a good thing.  In Allanak, a bard may have very little to do if they want to live off of their music.

Tuluk is, again, a place to hide and where campaigns against Allanak can start more openly.


Fine, maybe most of these things do not happen even with Tuluk open, but having the -option- counts.


Now, let's assume Tuluk is closed, and let's assume that there are forty players in it.

Twenty new people go to Allanak and fill the clans.
Ten people make gypsies or desert elves, and the final ten sits in the Labyrinth and Red Storm.


Well, that's great!  Isn't it?

Twenty new people in Allanak.  Assuming the spread is even, we'll get maybe two new Scorpions, three Wyverns, two Bynners and everyone else in a merchant House.  Oh, and maybe a few aides, too.

What this basically means is...overhunting.  It means a lot of traffic everywhere, and clogged up taverns, and most of these people will be frustrated about losing their treehugger, probably.

If we want more players, we ought to recruit more players...though in my experience and from what I understand, only one recruit in five or ten is successful.  Either way, this should not be done at the expense of Tuluk or any other area.

Just remember this point:  Tuluk is not filled with players because it exists as an option in the Hall of Kings.  Tuluk is filled with players because players want to play in it.

[SpyGuy]

This thread is about all ideas, and not just Angela Christine's.  I shall now suggest mine.

Leave Tuluk open.  Gradually close down both noble houses, and gradually diminish the merchant house presence (as related by PC numbers) until it is totally virtual.

Create other clans.  The biggest problem with Tuluk is that we had a chance to have a -different- city from Allanak, and yet the various clans ensure that there is no difference.

Now we have a chance to do something wild.  Like create a bunch of different city elf tribes that are constantly competing for territory.  Or a bunch of different bardic troups that are constantly trying to kill each other (that's where my vote goes).  Just make Tuluk have -different- clans from Allanak.

Then we would have a chance to have a clan setup that doesn't revolve around noble and merchant houses.  I realize that this is a frightening prospect for some people, but there's still Allanak to fall back on if you absolutely must play a Noble House guard.

This would likely help some (less than ACs idea) but would be fucking -sweet- to see.  I'll say the city elf thing isnt necessarily needed with HK in the mix, that stuff does seem more like a player driven thing to work the best.  But -different- types of clans...novel idea.  My big gripe is 'nak and tuluk seem to have the same clans and roles (regardless of how different the theme or area is).

My only comment is that for Tuluk to function as a believable city it will need Templars, no question to it.  There needs to be someone up top for players to look at for it to have a major city feel.

[Angela Christine]

I go away for a few hours and there are 38 replies?  You guys post too much.    Good thing I didn't derail that other thread.


Like ERS said, this is an idea thread.  I'm not sure I would like closing down Tuluk either, though turning the Renolte estate into a trading post could be pretty sweet.  I mean, have you seen the Renolte Estate?  I have, and it is exactly the sort of thing everybody should see.  Too bad the poet's circle or the museum couldn't have been placed in the Renote Estate, because it is double plus cool.  Burn down the Sanctuary!  Move it to the Renolte estate!


I object to closing down the noble houses in either city, because the culture and social structure really seemed flat without them.  You need Templars, and the Templars need people to roleplay with, or else they get bored to tears.  You can only torture so many elves to death before it gets old.  You also need scum, but the parade of scum happens without help.  If the Higher Levels of society are going to be virtualized, it would make sense to me to virtualized most of the society.


Why Tuluk instead of Allanak?  Allanak has and has always had expansionist tendancies, Tuluk has not.  In terms of "outside rooms" Allanak is actually a smaller city than Tuluk, circumnavigate both Allanak and Tuluk and count for yourself.

Allanak can not close itself off, because the area inside the walls is not capable of supporting itself.   The farms are not inside the walls, and building walls around the farmland would be a massive undertaking that would probably take decades.  The Oash vineyard, Red Storm East, and the old mantis valley, all sources of important supplies, are well outside the area Allanak could fence in.

By contrast the Scaen walls enclose  a huge amount of territory that is not part of the city, and could be converted to farmland fairly easily.  Plus there is another large parcel of land north of the city that is only accessible by going through Tuluk, that land could also be farmed, or used for fast growing scrub trees.

Tuluk could survive without the rest of the world, Allanak could not.  The only thing Tuluk routinely imports from outside the immediate area is spice.



But that isn't my only idea.  Just the most radical.


* Declare war.  Open war.  Active war.  More north-south interaction due to fighting.  Military houses could increase their field operations, everyone loves field operations.


* Declare peace.  More north-south interaction due to exchanging diplomats, and the diplomats' retainers.  What is an embasy, really, but a building chock-full of classy spies?  (Hey, the Renolte estate could be an embasy!)  With peace being declared, there would be more chances of nobles from the two city-states interacting.  Various noble houses could bring their favorite gladiators to the Luir's fighting pit and find out who grows the best mul gladiators once and for all!  It could even be an annual event.  Maybe a young Tennishi and a young Oash could have a little Romeo and Juliet style romance, complete with masacre.


* The rise of Stinal!  Or some other global threat.  Something that would make the Allanak-Tuluk rivalry pale in comparison.  The chance for enemies to be forced to grudgingly work together to combat a bigger threat.  Like when the Soviets and the West had to band together to stop the Nazis, but despite being allies they spent plenty of time schemeing against eachother to determine who would be dominent if/when the Nazis were out of the picture.


Ideas are good.


AC

[Anonymous]

AC, I'm not particularly sure that Templars need nobles in the North, especially due to the north's culture.  A northern templar could just as easily conduct business/socialize with hunting groups and merchant houses.  Well, from when I've played in the north they actually already do.

[Delirium]

Yeah, CRW, they could - however, it does get very lonely without someone to talk to as more or less an equal. No matter how valuable or trusted a commoner employee/contact is, the fact is, they're still commoners. Sometimes even templars need to kick back their heels and have a chat with a colleague that is more or less on their same level.

Though, I will admit this, the most fun was always templar-templar interaction. Nobles were usually more like a social tea-party with a few tidbits of politicking thrown in, while hanging out with your templar buddies almost always involved some down and dirty plotting alongside the friendly (or not so friendly) chit-chat.

[Stroker]

and the old mantis valley

From my understanding of the history, the Tuluki destroyed the Allanaki force present in the mantis valley. I assume that means Allanak no longer has supply routes going there and back.

[atalya]

What I keep thinking is - the night of the RPT, we had, what...120+ players on that night at ONE given time?

If we have that many players, truly - then I don't think the playerbase is too spread out. I think we're just all missing each other at a given time.


A.

[captjak]

As a player who has been there back in the days before Tuluk was destroyed, was there during the aftermath, the rebuilding, even the occupation (on both sides), I can honestly say leave it as is.  

The Reynolte estate, Silverwood, is and was a work of art, even after certain people butchered it for a while.  The Harzon gates was the Last Stand when the south invaded the north (poor Comrade Canadia, you remember what happened there *holds up a wooden spoon*).  

And for a long time, there was only two true houses you could play in Tuluk, Kadius and Reynolte, then one of them got closed, and people still kept coming to visit, and do things, trade was good, the Blackmoon raided the roads and we feared them.  A single hooded man in the middle of the road made you want to turn around and go the other way, if we had had the watch command back then, just think how effective the raiding parties would have been.

But Anyway, back to point.  With all the work done in rebuilding the North to the size it is now, then just to close it due to spread out player base I think would be a really bad idea.  The Byn would lose out, no more contracts for riding from city to city on guard.  The major Merchant houses would lose out because they would have to import alot more raw material from the North to their southern Houses, only having a limited ammount each crafter could work, whereas right now if you need say, a log, I can get you one in an hour or less.  If you thought overhunting was bad now, just imagine if you had one month where the hunting group of a single Merchant house would come up for a rl week and try to get as much as they could?  

Now, I appreciate the noble houses of the North, because they interact with the public for the most part, and invest in the public.  Last few times I have been south, I haven't even seen a Noble, only aides and guards that were wondering hey, where's my noble.  But, unfortunatly I cannot think of one good reason to close any of the open roles available, because each house has its own "flavor".  

In closing.  Even when Tuluk was destroyed, people came and business was done.  When it was rebuilding, people came, and we worked hard and built and gathered.  If it got shut down to only Silverwood, we would have the same number of Hunters, craftsmen, and other ways of building up skills, but we would not have the RP, the little tasty bits of flavor from the availability of four (or more) different bars to go to get away.  Dawn would come, everyone would scamper out to get the little bit that they could before returning before a sandstorm (or something nasty big) got them.

Those are my Two sid.

[Pantoufle]

Let's not forget that while closing the entire city-state, or whatever radical concept you've come up with may seem like a grand idea, I'm sure the players and staff who have spent an abundance of recent manhours working to create these clans and develop a rich history do not.

On one hand it may seem redundant to have two separate noble houses dedicated to the slave trade in each city-state.  On the other hand, and I'm only guessing here, maybe that was arranged deliberately.  However far the two city-states may be from one another, it's very likely these two noble houses would try to send spies on the other and learn their secrets, constantly battling to ensure their house is the greater version of the two.  And even if you don't think it is working, give it some time dude.  Pretty much every clan in Tuluk hasn't been around that long in the grand scheme of things.  Let the cemet dry at least before you talk about tearing it out and starting all over again.

I think shutting Allanak down as an alternative is overkill, as well.  From an IC standpoint, it looks really OOC for each village and/or city-state to fall, then rise again, one after the other.  It looks like OOC remodeling, regardless of what IC facade you use to rationalize in-game events.  Though I am bias, because Allanak is my favorite area of the game and would be very disappointed to see it go.

I'm also curious where this obsession with hating noble guards stems from.  Perhaps it is referencing the PCs as guards which is the root of the problem.  They aren't guards, NPCs are guards.  As a noble, I sure as shit am not about to ask some player to just stand there guarding me.  I think the only real problem comes with a lack of players in these roles.  Yes House Borsail could be holding routine slaving runs in the desert -- if it housed enough people to get the job done.  And it's likely House Tenneshi (and any other noble house) could petition their (wo)men-at-arms to go on wilderness missions too.  A lot of what some people here are saying is true: PC noble guards do just spar and chill at taverns.  Is it the fault of a spread out playerbase, or the abundance of independant characters who refuse to ever join a clan?  I don't know.  But no matter how many noble houses you have open, all it takes is two or three PCs "guards" in each to clan to hold routine RPTs in the wilderness and such.  I'm quite confident our present playerbase can support those numbers, it's just a matter of finding interested parties to take on these roles (and not get bored two weeks later before they're even skilled enough).

...all in my most humble, abased, lowly opinion, of course.

[Trenidor]

Tuluk and Allanak are opposite worlds (white/black) (Vegitive/Desolate) (Republican/Democrat) (Hunters/thieves) (Trees/Obsidian)

And the like. Closing down tuluk would cause commoner to templar interaction to decrease. Hunters would be replaced with thieves. Trees would no longer be used. etc

The result of doing anything drastic would result in drastically changing the whole gameworld. On the other hand, if we were to continue at the steady turtle pace we're going, we can't even predict what could happen.

Rome Wasn't built in a day, in fact, they didn't have any women there till they stole them from their neighbors.

If we give things time, changes will occur that will be just as drastic as what you guys are suggesting, but it will also be changes that are enevitable (*spelling*). People can't avoid these changes, they'll slowly adapt to them on the way up, then when they are at their peak, everyone will be used to them.

Now I'm sure you'll bring up a counter for this, like that you could just slowly kill off tuluk. But I don't think that'd be possible. Too many players are with me in fending for tuluk that, closing off tuluk would end up the RP of killing all the templars and other officials in Tuluk. We'd end up just some do what you want place, but we already have a city like that, sort of, and it'd result in the loss of players because it'd be more boring to see two identical cities than to see two opposite poles of a magnite.

[Stroker]

In the very least, instead of closing down the city-state, perhaps other noble houses can be opened for player interaction. Such as the Uaptaal or the Lyscoe, etc. I think closing down the entire city-state is a bit over the top. It is truly a different place, no matter how you try to argue that it isn't. Indeed, perhaps the clans are somewhat similar, but the -feel- of the city is completely different. It doesn't hold the same raw tone as Allanak, it is more soothing with its elegant architecture and other art, etc.

Now, onto a different point ....

I think shutting Allanak down as an alternative is overkill, as well. From an IC standpoint, it looks really OOC for each village and/or city-state to fall, then rise again, one after the other. It looks like OOC remodeling, regardless of what IC facade you use to rationalize in-game events. Though I am bias, because Allanak is my favorite area of the game and would be very disappointed to see it go.

Actually, realistically, the rise and fall of empires, city-states, etc should be common. Many empires spanned hundreds of years and crumbled away, yielding to others (on earth). Why shouldn't the same happen on Zalanthas? Given appropriate opposition, it just may occurr.

[SpyGuy]

Now, onto a different point ....

I think shutting Allanak down as an alternative is overkill, as well. From an IC standpoint, it looks really OOC for each village and/or city-state to fall, then rise again, one after the other. It looks like OOC remodeling, regardless of what IC facade you use to rationalize in-game events. Though I am bias, because Allanak is my favorite area of the game and would be very disappointed to see it go.

Actually, realistically, the rise and fall of empires, city-states, etc should be common. Many empires spanned hundreds of years and crumbled away, yielding to others (on earth). Why shouldn't the same happen on Zalanthas? Given appropriate opposition, it just may occurr.

As long as Tek is on the top of his game, Allanak would stand.  It was when Muk was defeated and had to retreat that Tuluk fell.  RL doesnt give us the perspective of city-states with ?immortal? god-kings.

But other than that, good points by everyone.  Tuluk may not need to be closed, but looking at some of these ideas (whether to expand the operations of noble houses or to replace them with significantly different clan types) there are ideas for improvement.  But anyway, I'd just like to see player run intrigue on the higher levels grow to intense proportions, so much so that it'd ripple down to the aide/guard/sneaky rinther level with plots in plots and multiple partners.  That would mean drawing more into the noble houses of one city or another, my preference being 'nak of course.

[Stroker]

You don't even know if Tektolnes or Muk Utep are even alive. For all you know that Dragon that came to save Allanak from the slave rebellion was just some facade put on by a powerful Black Robed Templar. And as far as Muk Utep, he hasn't shown himself in a bajillion years, so as far as you know he may not even exist as well. True, the citizens of either city-states -think- they exist. That doesn't make it true. However, I must admit that our earth empires do not compare to those of Zalanathas, and that is precisely why added - given the proper opposition.

[Agent_137]

Hehe, the Kings are all "dread pirate roberts" style. The Muk utep we have now isn't the original, but one in a long line of those who assume the mantle and the power of the name of Muk Utep


*scary music here*


Gives those young budding templars some hope of moving up in the world, eh?

[Stroker]

It would be cool if Tektolnes was really a very well trained monkey sent from the future by mad scientists to spread havoc across the land.

[EvilRoeSlade]

When I was a templar, I always resented nobles.  I'd see their guards sitting around in taverns doing nothing, when I knew that if they were working for me they'd be killing things and adventuring on a daily or at the very least weekly basis.  Meanwhile I was stuck with a fluctuating level of 1-3 soldiers, and when I needed more I'd just borrow a bunch of noble guards ANYWAY.

Nobles are essential for their clan.  Therefore if their clan fades out of existance, they no longer become essential.  Templars however, are essential for their city.  Especially in Tuluk where they can be issuing thief and assassin licenses (and later on giving work to those same thieves and assassins).  That is where I'd like to see the Tuluki action at, by the way.  Murders and burglaries.  I believe this can be accomplished best by hedging out all the redundant clans, and making each sect of "The Bards of Poet Circle" a full-fledged clan.

These wouldn't just be mild-mannered performers.  They'd be reminiscent of the bards which originally hailed from Dark Sun, minus the magick.  Asassins, blade experts, poison experts, thieves.  They'd all want the most fame and fortune, and this would mean getting down and dirty with the other troupes.  Hire somebody to wax their head performer.  Wax their head performer yourself.  Hire somebody to set fire to the stage while they're performing, or do it yourself.  Have the T'zai Byn pull a rival into an alley and beat the living fuck out of them.  Hire a mercenary (either Byn or independant) to protect you from all the waxing, burning, and beating.  Can Tuluk get any better than this?

[UnderSeven]

I really really really hate the idea of centering the action around one thing.  I've seen lots of rp muds do this in one way or another.  Lets have some organizations fight and then all the action is centered around that conflict.

That sucks for a game, because unless you are involved in the conflict yuou are BORED.  On top of that if you are in the conflict with one char the most you coudl do with your next to avoid playing the exact same thing again is do the other side.

Closing noble houses is a bad idea.  Moving all the action around one or two aspect is a bad idea.  Getting rid of redundant clans is an okay idea but lets face it.  This thread was about what, putting the player base together in the north more?  Well thing is i've seen taverns FULL of pcs where I Was still bored out of my mind.  Shoving everyone in one place does not nessicarily equal more interaction or more role play.  

I think we should keep a myriad of things going on in the north because it gives people fresh things to play.  Even with a single long lived char doing the same thing over and over again sucks after a while.

As far as ways to improve it, having played a noble before what I found is I precieved there to be too little to do. Sure I could go against X noble house or throw Y party (I love x's and y's) but ultimately I got to feeling what's the point.  Maybe having fewer pc nobles isn't a bad idea, because there seems to be a glass cieling there that make the roles feel less ambitious.  Ultimately conflict is what we need and ambition, but in order to be ambitious there needs to be a point worth working toward.  Give the clans a purpose and I don't think we'll see bored people.

[Anonymous]

Ultimately conflict is what we need and ambition, but in order to be ambitious there needs to be a point worth working toward.  Give the clans a purpose and I don't think we'll see bored people.

And often times that purpose is born out of conflict.  Conflict is more prevalent when there are more PCs in a given area.

While I don't agree with shutting down Tuluk at all, I do feel that spreading out the noble roles across the two cities has resulted in all noble PCs having fewer fellow nobles to interact with in their area.  Most players correctly play nobles as arrogant and petty.  As such, it just stands to reason that the more nobles are playing in a given city, the more they'll be pissing each other off.  A good thing, IMHO.

[UnderSeven]

I'm not sure nobles competing with nobles works though.  My experience is since the nobles have their own house purposes which don't really conflict with each other, there is little for them to do to each other.  Their goals really don't cross except for. Petting things, as CRW said, more or less just because they're too proud to get along, but just squabbles hardly makes for good conflict.

[Werd]

The Byn would lose out, no more contracts for riding from city to city on guard.

Why would the Byn no longer be needed to ride from city to city on guard? I don't think anyone has suggested making Tuluk up and vanish into thin air.

The major Merchant houses would lose out because they would have to import alot more raw material from the North to their southern Houses, only having a limited ammount each crafter could work, whereas right now if you need say, a log, I can get you one in an hour or less

Good! I think it is a problem that you can deliver a log in an hour or less myself, the more limited the resources on this supposedly "harsh" desert world the better.

If you thought overhunting was bad now, just imagine if you had one month where the hunting group of a single Merchant house would come up for a rl week and try to get as much as they could?

Sounds great to me. Just think maybe these supposedly different and rival houses might actually have to fight over limited resources! Perish the thought, I know. That or they would negotiate deals between them to collectively work together to get needed resources. Hopefully that wouldn't happen, imo there needs to be more lines in the sand and outright open conflict and strife.

Last few times I have been south, I haven't even seen a Noble, only aides and guards that were wondering hey, where's my noble.

Maybe if the Tuluk houses were closed you would *GASP!* amazingly have a better chance of encountering a noble in Allanak since the player base would be more concentrated! (Yes I am being sarcastic, but the point remains.)

In closing.  Even when Tuluk was destroyed, people came and business was done.  When it was rebuilding, people came, and we worked hard and built and gathered.
If it got shut down to only Silverwood, we would have the same number of Hunters, craftsmen, and other ways of building up skills,

So you are saying independents will continue to be independents and do as they usually do? I agree and I don't think that is the issue here.

but we would not have the RP,

Why wouldn't there be RP if the independents congregated in a smaller area? In reality I think the chances for RP interaction between them would only increase, not decrease. Hopefully in the form of more rivalry brought about by jealousy of the more successful hunters/gatherers by the less successful ones. Hell maybe it would also provide a ripe atmosphere for a player run clan of hunters/gatherers and the like to spring up.

the availability of four (or more) different bars to go to get away.

How many empty bars are you really going to miss?

Dawn would come, everyone would scamper out to get the little bit that they could before returning before a sandstorm (or something nasty big) got them.

And your problem with this is?

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure nobles competing with nobles works though.  My experience is since the nobles have their own house purposes which don't really conflict with each other, there is little for them to do to each other.

I've experienced something quite the opposite.  Feuding nobles across houses often results in other PCs being engaged for undercover spying, assassination or just information gathering.

Their goals really don't cross except for. Petting things, as CRW said, more or less just because they're too proud to get along, but just squabbles hardly makes for good conflict.

No, two nobles having a 5 minute cat fight over a table doesn't do much to involve other PCs.  Fortunately, those things can escalate into something much more interesting.

[Trenidor]

To be frank, and quite simple...Werd is a Jackass

1.Why would someone want to visit a  city that no one is allowed into?

2. You're Power gaming if you can deliver a log in an hour or less to the south. I'm pretty sure your kank wouldn't want to carry that gigantic tree at a running pace all the way to 'nak from tuluk

3.If Tulukis don't ever leave their city there's no chance of them attacking allanaka

4. What would the difference make of meeting a noble in the south...I don't think I read anywhere that we'd get new players, that have lots of time on their hands to wait around all day, to take up the noble roles in allanak.

5. What's the use in getting rid of already established houses, for crapy new ones? Is it just me or are some of you for this idea so that you can start your own clans?

6. I use every bar in the city at least once on any given day. I'd miss the cheap price of ale in Freils rest, and the strong tasting stuff in the elven market. Then I'd miss the ability to smoke up all my spice then buy more in the tooth; which means I have less chance of losing all that spice I'm packing around if someone stole it. Then I'd miss the rich nobles and templar interaction I can get at Sanctuary.

7. All my characters that live in Allanak have never experienced the feeling of over hunting. In tuluk though, there are millions of hunters killing up the place. I don't think you understand how it is that Tulukis use up resources they find fast.

It is apparent this Discussion is getting out of hand, the Tuluki's are on defence for many reasons.

The allanaki want this idea because they want more interaction with people because they miss all their friends that left up to tuluk.

Then there are the people that are for this idea because they think that it'll give them a better chance of creating their own clans. (Really smart...get rid of the best clans for clans that are crappy)

There are also the people that want this idea because others are agreeing on it, so they have to join in too.

Finnally there are the people that are for this idea because it give allanak a better advantage against tuluk. More things will be done because tulukis can't defend themselves up in the walls.

Now what does this mean?

It means there is no opposition in the whole game. Allanak will be the black city, and tuluk will be the white, but no one will care anymore because tuluki's aren't around to say white is better than black.

It means that new clans will be established of course, but they won't be that long lasting. I'd rather be in a clan that stays for a long time (either because they developed the hard way, or because they are already around) than play some stupid clan that will last for a few days and then everyone will think they could start their own as well, and they would leave the clan to form new ones.

It means that when you're traveling up north, the only reason you'd hang around for a long time would be because you did something wrong in allanak and need a hideout. Then people would think that anyone that's lived long in Tuluk Market is a theif.

It means that when we go north, the only reason for this is because we would be greedy bastards looking for northern supplies to sell back in allanak.

And this is only half of what it means.


I can see only two logical solutions to this problem:

1. Get more people to play.

and 2. Hold your own friggen RPTs and you'll get more interaction.

[mansa]

I'm making my font a size larger, so people can read it.


You MUST portray the relative population of the game world through the player's characters of the game.  It is essential for politics in the game world.

As a player of the game, my first reaction is to judge a clan based off the CURRENT CHARACTERS who are playing, in that clan.  If I notice that there is NOBODY in that clan, my GUT reaction is to think that it is a WEAK and BORING and POWERLESS clan.

I do not judge a clan based off how many VNPCs and NPCs are in the Senate.  I base it off the people in the clan.

We, as players, all do this.   We, as people who do NOT know EVERYTHING that goes on behind the scenes must rely on what we can see and touch.  That is the visible people in the world.


To close down a whole city, or a clan, is to remove them from the politics of the game.  It shifts the whole powerbase of the game world and what we as players can do.  It takes everything and puts it into the hands of the IMMORTALS.  That is the WRONG thing to do.  It sets us back as players.  It doesn't allow us to change the world at all.  We would have to depend on the IMMORTALS for everything.

Example 1:
In 2000, House Kadius had almost 1/4 of the total population of PCs in the game world employeed.   They ruled.   They were scary.  They could, if they wanted to, Attack and kill every NPC and PC in Salarr, or even Kurac.

That isn't correct.   Gamewise, Kadius doesn't even have a standing army.  They hire hunters.  They hire a small bit of guards.  That's it.   But Imagine it.   House Kadius DESTROYING House Kurac in a war.  It should NEVER happen.


Example 2:
This one is for you guys to use your imagination.

Imagine that the immortals decided to 'close down' House Kadius.  In order to get your special clothes, you would have to email the mud account.  People would play merchant characters, and be able to craft their own clothes.  They would sell it to other people, now, because they have the useable skills.  Those characters would amass so much coin that they, relatively speaking, could BUY their own NOBLE HOUSE in Allanak and Tuluk.  They would become their own MERCHANT HOUSE.

But, that should -never- happen.  The merchant houses OWN the economy.  They ARE the economy.  They make sure that individuals can never amass enough coin to make it to that level, unless they have their own personal stakes in it.  It would be -crazy- if a certain character got so much coin that they could CHALLENGE them.  They would have them killed.

But.   The opposing forces are now all NPCs and VNPCs.  Controlled by IMMORTALS.  Immortals aren't allowed to outright kill the players of the game.  It would be considered cheating.  But, if they were to acurately portray the opposing forces, they would DEFINATELY send out assassins to any group that might have some form of Challenge to them.  When was the last time that YOU had a group of Assassins sent out by House Jal at you?  It doesn't happen because WE as PLAYERS would rise up and voice our threats at the CHEATING immortals.


The only -REAL- thing that can be done, is to recruit more players.  So do it.

[Anonymous]

What is wrong with how things are now?

[Gilvar]

What is wrong with how things are now?

Many people believe (myself included) that the world is too segmented and broken up, thus making clans relatively smaller by dividing the available number of people by large numbers.

If it was still on the board I would refer you to a very good post that discussed this when the North was rebuilt. Many people were upset because everyone played in the North (and the population is still in the phase of the cycle where most players during peak time are in the North).

Most people can agree that having more people in any one area would increase interaction, clan-size, etc. But then people complain they can't play a certain type of role. Etc. Or that things are too similar.

It all depends on who you talk to.

[Trenidor]

Yes well if everyone was in tuluk, why didn't the panseys go up north themselves to mess around?

[UnderSeven]

Consolidating people only works SO FAR.  If you put the whole playerbase in a room without anything to do there or a reason to interact, they're not going to do anything.  I agree with Mansa and Trenidor, if you want more pcs in your area recruit and MAKE YOUR OWN EVENTS.  Motivate them, be a leader.

Trenidor, don't call people jack asses.  

If someone wants to cut a log in the north and bring it south in 30 mins let them.  One log isn't going to affect have an impact.  If someone wants to bring a lot of logs in that manner, they'll find out why people don't generally do that often very fast.

[SpyGuy]

Yes well if everyone was in tuluk, why didn't the panseys go up north themselves to mess around?

Because some people don't like the North, the politics, or the culture.  Personally I can't stand it for prolonged periods, it doesnt feel like the same game.  Part of the problem is that I havent had a role in Tuluk that allowed me to feel like part of the cities culture, so much of it is independent/clanned hunters and such that I never saw and rarely heard about intrigue.

But as Gilvar said, all depends who you ask.  Allanak -is- the centerpiece of the game, 'nak's theme of harsh desert is what its all about.  Some people prefer the South, some the North.  But they seem far too similar and regardless of theme the roles themselves aren't significantly different.  Tuluk can have bard intrigue and indepents like 'nak never can, why split up the social intrigue aspect of the game by having very similar noble houses in the North?

And btw Trenidor, calling someone a jackass because they disagree with you isn't exactly furthering your point.

[Werd]

I had originally written up a post that was probably closer to a flame, so here is the toned down version.

To be frank, and quite simple...Werd is a Jackass
why didn't the panseys go up north

Thank you for this helpful and insightful contribution to this thread. It is spelled pansies by the way.

1.Why would someone want to visit a  city that no one is allowed into?

I am going to assume this is about the Byn patrolling from city to city point. Maybe I need to spell this out for you and make it clearer because it is obviously so obvious that your staggering intellect simply chose not to acknowledge its existence because it was so below it. Ok here goes, you may want to pat your head and rub your tummy while chewing bubble gum to distract your superior grey matter so it is on the level of normal mortals. Here begins the hypothetical situation: Step 1, the Byn leaves Allanak and goes on the patrol to the north. Step 2, The before mentioned Byn, (Are you still with me here? Good, I know how it pains you to dumb yourself down to follow my points.) would stop at the Silverwood outpost and then maybe stay there for a RL day, rping it out that they had been up to the gates of Tuluk itself on patrol in a VNPCly sort of way. Wow, I know that was way too simple for you to even consider, but there it is. They don't need to be able to enter Tuluk in order to patrol between the two cities.

2. You're Power gaming if you can deliver a log in an hour or less to the south. I'm pretty sure your kank wouldn't want to carry that gigantic tree at a running pace all the way to 'Nak from Tuluk.

Uhh, what? Who suggested that it was a good idea to do this? Perhaps if I put my previous point entirely in bold underline and italics it will sink in better for you. Good! I think it is a problem that you can deliver a log in an hour or less myself, the more limited the resources on this supposedly "harsh" desert world the better.[/i][/u] Reading comprehension is our friend, okay kids?

3.If Tulukis don't ever leave their city there's no chance of them attacking allanaka

Who said nobody could ever leave Tuluk at all? I am sure if Tuluk wanted to send some people or an army out to fuck with Allanak they could manage to open the gates for their own soldiers to leave. Are you saying that because PC's do not populate Tuluk that it ceases to exist? The mantis did a pretty good job of attacking Luirs and guess what, the mantis race was closed for PC play awhile ago! Astounding, I know since by all rights they should not exist by your reasoning!

4. What would the difference make of meeting a noble in the south...I don't think I read anywhere that we'd get new players, that have lots of time on their hands to wait around all day, to take up the noble roles in Allanak.

Again I think the point was too simple for you to grasp. Resume the patting rubbing and chewing while reading the following: Tuluk clans closed=more people playing in Allanak clans. More people playing in Allanak clans=higher chance of you encountering someone who is part of an Allanak based clan, amazing, I know.

5. What's the use in getting rid of already established houses, for crapy new ones? Is it just me or are some of you for this idea so that you can start your own clans?

I never suggested putting up "crappy" new ones as you put it so eloquently. If you have not picked up on it yet, I am in favor of less clans. I have noticed posts where people have stated a desire for more player run clans and that is the only reason I included that in my point. The fact that where would be fewer Imm run clans could possibly lead to more people available to form player run clans if that is what they desire to do.

6. I use every bar in the city at least once on any given day. I'd miss the cheap price of ale in Freils rest, and the strong tasting stuff in the elven market. Then I'd miss the ability to smoke up all my spice then buy more in the tooth; which means I have less chance of losing all that spice I'm packing around if someone stole it. Then I'd miss the rich nobles and templar interaction I can get at Sanctuary.

Good, want a gold star?

7. All my characters that live in Allanak have never experienced the feeling of over hunting. In Tuluk though, there are millions of hunters killing up the place. I don't think you understand how it is that Tulukis use up resources they find fast.

If that is your experience then perhaps the resources available around Allanak need to become scarcer.

It is apparent this Discussion is getting out of hand, the Tuluki's are on defence for many reasons.

Just because you don't care for it don't mean it has gotten out of hand, all of the replies have been well thought out and mature up until you started posting.

The allanaki want this idea because they want more interaction with people because they miss all their friends that left up to tuluk.

You might find this amazing but I have never had an Allanak based character, wow! I think you are too attached to Tuluk oocly and you are guilty of what you are accusing others of.

Then there are the people that are for this idea because they think that it'll give them a better chance of creating their own clans. (Really smart...get rid of the best clans for clans that are crappy)

I'll have to go over the thread again but I am pretty sure nobody jumped up and said YEAH GET RID OF TULUK SO I CAN FORM MY OWN CLAN! As for Tuluk having the best clans, that is entirely a matter of opinion.

There are also the people that want this idea because others are agreeing on it, so they have to join in too.

Yeah we're all zombies with no thoughts of our own. *drool*Hey AC are my posts good enough for you?

Finnally there are the people that are for this idea because it give allanak a better advantage against tuluk. More things will be done because tulukis can't defend themselves up in the walls.

Wow. ...just, wow. Again assuming that only PCs populate and defend Tuluk.

Now what does this mean?

It means there is no opposition in the whole game. Allanak will be the black city, and tuluk will be the white, but no one will care anymore because tuluki's aren't around to say white is better than black.

What is stopping people from saying this exactly?

It means that new clans will be established of course, but they won't be that long lasting. I'd rather be in a clan that stays for a long time (either because they developed the hard way, or because they are already around) than play some stupid clan that will last for a few days and then everyone will think they could start their own as well, and they would leave the clan to form new ones.

JOIN A LONG STANDING AND ESTABLISHED CLAN THEN! You answered your own question, what was the point of this exactly? Once again I merely suggested that maybe with less coded clans available there would be more PCs available to start up some viable player run clans, I did not in any way say that there will be, there must be, or I or anyone else would form a clan if Tuluk was closed.

It means that when you're traveling up north, the only reason you'd hang around for a long time would be because you did something wrong in allanak and need a hideout. Then people would think that anyone that's lived long in Tuluk Market is a theif.

What the hell? Where did this come from? People will still require the resources only available in the north, which will not change so people won't only go up there to "hideout" like you said. Besides, if someone wants a "hideout" Red Storm is underused and a better place to do so.

It means that when we go north, the only reason for this is because we would be greedy bastards looking for northern supplies to sell back in allanak.

Ok, what is wrong with greedy PCs if it is IC to be so? I really don't get what you are trying to get at with this, please explain it to me in simple terms so that I may grasp it.

And this is only half of what it means.

No shit? Please elaborate and enlighten us on the other half.


I can see only two logical solutions to this problem:

1. Get more people to play.

Easier said than done, Arm isn't everyone’s cup of tea, and what is wrong with shutting them down while trying to recruit more people to play as well? And then when there is a larger player base things could be reopened.

and 2. Hold your own friggen RPTs and you'll get more interaction.

Once again, what? When has this been about RPTs?

[Anonymous]

Consolidating people only works SO FAR.  If you put the whole playerbase in a room without anything to do there or a reason to interact, they're not going to do anything.  I agree with Mansa and Trenidor, if you want more pcs in your area recruit and MAKE YOUR OWN EVENTS.  Motivate them, be a leader.

Trenidor, don't call people jack asses.  

If someone wants to cut a log in the north and bring it south in 30 mins let them.  One log isn't going to affect have an impact.  If someone wants to bring a lot of logs in that manner, they'll find out why people don't generally do that often very fast.

WRONG!!!!

Bloodbath happens. It would be very interesting and bloody real quick.

[Werd]

Mansa: Clans have been closed down for playability reasons in the past, correct? So there is an established precedent of doing so and I don't see why it could or should not be done again.

[Stroker]

Many people believe (myself included) that the world is too segmented and broken up, thus making clans relatively smaller by dividing the available number of people by large numbers.

Recently there's been an influx of new players. Thus, we have a bigger pbase than we did a year ago. So .... Tuluk was open a year ago, why close it and its clans now when we have a larger pbase that can afford (more so than before) to be segmented and broken up.

[mansa]

Which clans were closed?  Blackwing?  Blackmoon?  Fale?  Gith Mesa?  Reynolte?  Ptar Ken?  Conclave?  Kohmar?  Delann?

Did they have a major part in the politics of the world of Zalanthas, or did they slowly get phased out?

Almost all of them were slowly phased out.  The players of those clans just stopped playing, or the immortals just stopped taking applications for them.

Or they joined other clans and molded into one.


It -can- be done again.  However, the original thought is to remove a WHOLE POLITICAL STRUCTURE from the game.   In my eyes, it would make a WHOLE DIFFERENT GAME that we would play if the original thought was done.

It might be done again, for one clan, but a whole city would be a very BAD idea.

[Anonymous]

Werd is an egotistical maniac whos thoughts are unfounded and probably an implement of the devil or aliens. But not to derail I vote yes.

[Angela Christine]

I think I see a thread locking in our future.  :sigh:


AC

[spawnloser]

Okay, for everyone that is saying that Tuluk should be closed, tell me why other things shouldn't be closed.  I have heard no good reasons for closing Tuluk that could not be applied to other areas/clans including Allanak.

[UnderSeven]

I'm tottlly against this idea, but to my ealier stuff.  First off, the playerbase has been steadily growing, I don't think a single city like allanak could support it anymore.  Even if this point is disputeable, I'd rather not find out by tringing it.

Closing tuluk by force, with long time players and chars invested in it would be an extreme and rash action.  The kind of actions which are poor to make.  People would likely get fed up or frustrated and leave the game. I've had this sort of thing done to me in a game and it has that affect. Putting everyone in the same are results in bloodbaths only if the people there have reasons to fight or to rp at all.  

One of the things that makes arm nice is the  myriad of people and organizations pushing nd pulling. It keeps us from having a two sided thing going.  Clans that get closed generally are a slow process.

Sometimes different areas suffer from lack of people, closing down areas is not the answer.  You just can't force someone to play somewhere by an invisible hand moving them, it's just not fun.

[moab]

I, for one, can't figure out what the North was ever rebuilt.  At the time there was a discussion about the number of the players and the need for two cities.  I still believe that two cities are unneeded.

I would have rather seen just Luirs Outpost, a small village near the ruins of the city and maybe a few human nomdic tribes up there.

When Tuluk fell it gave Northerners something to struggle against.  Now with Tuluk so massive and successful it has become all the things that were wrong with Tuluk to begin with (except you can map it now).

I particularly have a problem with how Tuluk has become so advanced and rich so quickly after its fall.  It seem forced and not real.

The world should be mostly brutal with spots of peace and beauty - Tuluk violates this rule in a million different ways.

[UnderSeven]

Eh?

It's not like they had to start from scratch when Allanak was beat out.  The Tuluki government first of all never left, they were just hiding.  Second it isn't like it was just a bunch of barbaric villages that whole time.  It WAS a city, just occupied by Allanak.  Not to mention the merchant houses were there.  So why doesn't it make sense?  As far as riches go, it's in the greenest region of a desert world.  The city actually being destroyed probably happened around a hundred years ago in game by now and the people for the most part survived it, so it isn't like they had to reinvent the wheel, just rebuild it.

The changes that occured then were also a long time comming, no ooc hands of plug pulling like this thread seems to be suggesting.  I guess what I'm saying is if you want Tuluk gone so bad then march up there with an army and destroy it.

[bambi killer]

you all prob like werd cause he puts himself off as a good guy . when in fact he is a flaming ____ !!!! he has no strategy !!!!! he cant get no pootie tang   cause he never leaves the house . he will prob ignore me after he reads this . but thats oky cause i know his counter part  :twisted:    after all werd wouldn't you agree pootayisgay  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

[Carnage]

you all prob like werd cause he puts himself off as a good guy . when in fact he is a flaming ____ !!!! he has no strategy !!!!! he cant get no pootie tang   cause he never leaves the house . he will prob ignore me after he reads this . but thats oky cause i know his counter part  :twisted:    after all werd wouldn't you agree pootayisgay  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

Hey everyone, John and Creeper had a baby!

[Laeris]

I had kept this thread open because it initially had some quality discussion.  I am completely perplexed how a group of ordinarily intelligent and rational people can devolve so rapidly into base name-calling.

The discussion was related to closing a few clans and/or the city of Tuluk itself and I cannot, by any stretch of my imagination, comprehend how such a topic would warrant insults, derogatory sarcasm, and contempt.

The topic of north versus south has come up before and you will normally find the playerbase polarized between the two, with a handful of players happily stuck in the middle.  

While there may be some truth to the fact that the playerbase is too scattered, I don't feel it makes much sense to close off Tuluk as a whole.  There is no true IC reason why Tuluk would close itself off, leaving all but an outpost as its sole means of communication with the outside world.  It makes little economic sense and, having successfully fended off numerous attacks on the city, they would have little fear of invaders.  

From an OOC perspective, if we're wanting to unite a fractured playerbase then it would make more sense to close down a few of the outside clans, such as the Anyali and numerous desert elves, which add flavor to the game but little practical intrigue while leaving the larger cities, which have the potential to create much conflict if utilized properly.  However, I don't think this is a solution either.

In the past two years, our playerbase has grown tremendously.  A large part of it is due to the players, who have actively campaigned for the game.  The playerbase, from what I have seen, is continuing to grow.  I would suggest having a little patience and be proactive with the roles you choose.

Regarding the nobility, while the spheres of influence from north to south might overlap in areas, the differing houses have their own unique approach and flavor, which is borne out in the docs.  Saying that Winrothol is identical to Borsail simply because both are Houses that deal with slavery is a tremendous injustice not only to the staff involved in creating the House but to the players that helped flesh it out as well.

In closing, this is a game and we all, staff and player alike, are involved with it because we enjoy it and have fun.  If it is causing you enough grief that you are becoming incensed over suggestions and ideas that are contrary to your way of thinking, perhaps you should take a step back and reevaluate your priorities.

Regards,

Laeris