Close the northern noble houses?

[Anonymous]

When we talk about clans being short for PCs 99 times out of 100, we are talking about the guard roles.  Most clans do not want for non-combat leadership or for merchants/aides/advisors/agents/etc.  And the reason why guard roles are so understaffed is because the job is redundant.  In any of the major locations you have not only crim code, but city/village miltia and clanned NPC guards providing a deterrant for open attack.  So, as a result, the cycle Malken talked about is what guard PCs end up doing, with the exception of a few clans.  Spar, rest, spar, tavern sit.  Spar, rest, spar, bazaar shopping.  People who say it is all up to the player to inject variety into their PC's schedule are not taking into account the heavy role scheduled guard training plays in a guard PC's daily activities.  It is very, very difficult to engage in any significant roleplay when 6 out of the 9 parts of the day are taken up by assigned training.  This is not always the case, but in most places it is.

Which is why I believe more clans should have clan activities much in the same way that cities and villages have local activities.

In Red Storm you can gather spice.  In Allanak you can get obsidian, salt or rocks.  In Tuluk you can get wood and flowers or dig up clay.  The same sort of focus for each clan, as a part of that clan's guard's focus, would make clan guard positions much more attractive.

• Borsail could have regular slaving runs to grab gith and tarantulas for the Arena.  They even used to have cages just for this activity which was a blast.
• Tor and the militias could engage in daily patrols outside the city in a certain perimeter.  Not only is this a chance to come across some combat, but there's always a good chance of being able to rough up some elf or find a corpse.
• Merchant houses could have their guards assigned to gather local resources or hunt to fulfill crafter needs.

Same with other clans.  Because, ultimately, I believe that the guard roles for almost every single clan need to be given more to do than spar because having regular sparring partners and a source for food just does not balance out with the rules imposed on your PC, which is why I believe a large portion of the combat-oriented PCs do not opt to join a clan.

[Werd]

I think it is a great idea AC, as I think Armageddon could only benefit from bringing the player base closer together. When more players are in closer proximity it will breed tension and tension would build conflict leading to a much more interesting atmosphere to the mud and more "harshness" that most people seem to desire. As it is now the player base is spread too thin and there is not much noticeable strife. Allow the people who have characters in those houses currently to play their characters until they die or retire, but don't take on any new people into them.

[Malken]

Exactly, CRW! Unfortunatly, you'll probably have the usual players who will find something to disagree with you, and our ideas will probably be lost in a pile of arguments *sighs*

But I agree 110% with you, and that's also what I was writing about in my other post.

[Trenidor]

What's Zalanthas turing to?!?!?!?!?!?!?

We can't shut down a whole city for PCs. Things are fine the way they are. I'm so opposed to this idea that if this happened I'd dedicate my life to the destruction of allanak.

The only way to get anything done about the spreadout of people on arm is to make friend IRL and send them in to play arm.

[Callisto]

I completely support ACs idea.

[Dakkon Black]

I'm in support of more conflict, more Pc to Pc plots and such. If that means shutting down a city so that we can have a more concentrated game play area so be it.

Would I rather see 120 players on filling both cities? Yes.

Will having Tuluk shut down kill the north? No.

Not as long as that reynolte place stays open for people up there, you can have your rangers etc.

It's not the ideal solution, but unless each one of you goes and recruits 3 people in the next week to come play what can you do?

[Trenidor]

Why not do it to nak? Keep tuluk open for people to go freely?

That'd work better because tuluk is smaller than nak...

[Agent_137]

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/63/2.html

Don't shut down Tuluk. That's silly. Close a house or two, at most.

But a superior solution is to GET MORE PLAYERS. IT ISN'T THAT HARD.

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2001/63/2.html

[Werd]

The idea is to close it until the player base grows large enough to easily sustain both locations, so what would be wrong in trying to get more players while it was closed off for awhile? Getting new players interested in Arm is also easier said than done. The vast majority of people who play muds want IRC with some hack and slashing thrown into it.

What's Zalanthas turing to?!?!?!?!?!?!?

We can't shut down a whole city for PCs. Things are fine the way they are. I'm so opposed to this idea that if this happened I'd dedicate my life to the destruction of allanak.

The only way to get anything done about the spreadout of people on arm is to make friend IRL and send them in to play arm.

[SpyGuy]

I like ACs idea, as long as its done realistically and with incentive (huge RPT or HRPT to force Muk to make such a drastic change).  It would add different levels to Tuluki psyche while sadly only letting players explore the role of an outsider (my term for someone living outside the city proper and therefore having the taint of the outside world).

I wont rehash all points but I agree with Werd and CRW.  The change wouldnt eleminate Tuluk, but it would eliminate the "social" roles that Noble houses supply and give it a -very- frontierish feel, something that Storm can offer but since you cant hunt or survive very well down there w/o help it doesnt and wont get a large playerbase.

An idea to maybe help the trading outpost get a real feel and to move over old nobles/templars/house guards: have the trading outpost have a core group of "insiders" (basically Tuluki nobles/templars and elite house guards) that would choose to sometimes go outside the gate to administer the farms and to keep order.  This would allow a transition for the current PCs and also a role for something other than ranger/blah in the new area.

After that open up one (or in my mind 2, but im more for multi-directional intrigue than big player numbers in individual clans) noble houses in 'nak that wouldnt need large guard Corps, like Fale or Sath.

This idea wouldnt solve all problems, and would like reopen new ones, but I dont like the current vibe of tuluk.  Thats personal preference (as in dont attack it, you wont change my mind) but I can see why people like it.  But I think ACs idea will boost Tuluk's strengths and help boosts 'naks too.

I'm rambling, good idea AC.  Kudos.

[EvilRoeSlade]

This thread is about all ideas, and not just Angela Christine's.  I shall now suggest mine.

Leave Tuluk open.  Gradually close down both noble houses, and gradually diminish the merchant house presence (as related by PC numbers) until it is totally virtual.

Create other clans.  The biggest problem with Tuluk is that we had a chance to have a -different- city from Allanak, and yet the various clans ensure that there is no difference.

Now we have a chance to do something wild.  Like create a bunch of different city elf tribes that are constantly competing for territory.  Or a bunch of different bardic troups that are constantly trying to kill each other (that's where my vote goes).  Just make Tuluk have -different- clans from Allanak.

Then we would have a chance to have a clan setup that doesn't revolve around noble and merchant houses.  I realize that this is a frightening prospect for some people, but there's still Allanak to fall back on if you absolutely must play a Noble House guard.

[Trenidor]

Why can't we just shut off the houses in tuluk for PC play...that would mean that the city would stay the same, and the nobles would still be there, just no one would ever see them. Seeing as how Tuluk isn't as harsh as Allanak, that would work because nobles don't yell at you for stupid things. Some times you don't even notice someone is a noble.

EDIT*** ERS beat me to it lol

[Larrath]

Uhh, sure, let's close Tuluk and have everyone play in Allanak.  Well, or Red Storm or the few gypsies here and there.


Tuluk gives actual spies and sabotaging people a chance to exist, and also a place to hide it (Tuluk if against South, Allanak if against North).

Tuluk has cheaper stuff in it, and can let people arrange caravan rides and make money, or import fashions.

Tuluk is friendlier to artistic characters, and this is a good thing.  In Allanak, a bard may have very little to do if they want to live off of their music.

Tuluk is, again, a place to hide and where campaigns against Allanak can start more openly.


Fine, maybe most of these things do not happen even with Tuluk open, but having the -option- counts.


Now, let's assume Tuluk is closed, and let's assume that there are forty players in it.

Twenty new people go to Allanak and fill the clans.
Ten people make gypsies or desert elves, and the final ten sits in the Labyrinth and Red Storm.


Well, that's great!  Isn't it?

Twenty new people in Allanak.  Assuming the spread is even, we'll get maybe two new Scorpions, three Wyverns, two Bynners and everyone else in a merchant House.  Oh, and maybe a few aides, too.

What this basically means is...overhunting.  It means a lot of traffic everywhere, and clogged up taverns, and most of these people will be frustrated about losing their treehugger, probably.

If we want more players, we ought to recruit more players...though in my experience and from what I understand, only one recruit in five or ten is successful.  Either way, this should not be done at the expense of Tuluk or any other area.

Just remember this point:  Tuluk is not filled with players because it exists as an option in the Hall of Kings.  Tuluk is filled with players because players want to play in it.

[SpyGuy]

This thread is about all ideas, and not just Angela Christine's.  I shall now suggest mine.

Leave Tuluk open.  Gradually close down both noble houses, and gradually diminish the merchant house presence (as related by PC numbers) until it is totally virtual.

Create other clans.  The biggest problem with Tuluk is that we had a chance to have a -different- city from Allanak, and yet the various clans ensure that there is no difference.

Now we have a chance to do something wild.  Like create a bunch of different city elf tribes that are constantly competing for territory.  Or a bunch of different bardic troups that are constantly trying to kill each other (that's where my vote goes).  Just make Tuluk have -different- clans from Allanak.

Then we would have a chance to have a clan setup that doesn't revolve around noble and merchant houses.  I realize that this is a frightening prospect for some people, but there's still Allanak to fall back on if you absolutely must play a Noble House guard.

This would likely help some (less than ACs idea) but would be fucking -sweet- to see.  I'll say the city elf thing isnt necessarily needed with HK in the mix, that stuff does seem more like a player driven thing to work the best.  But -different- types of clans...novel idea.  My big gripe is 'nak and tuluk seem to have the same clans and roles (regardless of how different the theme or area is).

My only comment is that for Tuluk to function as a believable city it will need Templars, no question to it.  There needs to be someone up top for players to look at for it to have a major city feel.

[Angela Christine]

I go away for a few hours and there are 38 replies?  You guys post too much.    Good thing I didn't derail that other thread.


Like ERS said, this is an idea thread.  I'm not sure I would like closing down Tuluk either, though turning the Renolte estate into a trading post could be pretty sweet.  I mean, have you seen the Renolte Estate?  I have, and it is exactly the sort of thing everybody should see.  Too bad the poet's circle or the museum couldn't have been placed in the Renote Estate, because it is double plus cool.  Burn down the Sanctuary!  Move it to the Renolte estate!


I object to closing down the noble houses in either city, because the culture and social structure really seemed flat without them.  You need Templars, and the Templars need people to roleplay with, or else they get bored to tears.  You can only torture so many elves to death before it gets old.  You also need scum, but the parade of scum happens without help.  If the Higher Levels of society are going to be virtualized, it would make sense to me to virtualized most of the society.


Why Tuluk instead of Allanak?  Allanak has and has always had expansionist tendancies, Tuluk has not.  In terms of "outside rooms" Allanak is actually a smaller city than Tuluk, circumnavigate both Allanak and Tuluk and count for yourself.

Allanak can not close itself off, because the area inside the walls is not capable of supporting itself.   The farms are not inside the walls, and building walls around the farmland would be a massive undertaking that would probably take decades.  The Oash vineyard, Red Storm East, and the old mantis valley, all sources of important supplies, are well outside the area Allanak could fence in.

By contrast the Scaen walls enclose  a huge amount of territory that is not part of the city, and could be converted to farmland fairly easily.  Plus there is another large parcel of land north of the city that is only accessible by going through Tuluk, that land could also be farmed, or used for fast growing scrub trees.

Tuluk could survive without the rest of the world, Allanak could not.  The only thing Tuluk routinely imports from outside the immediate area is spice.



But that isn't my only idea.  Just the most radical.


* Declare war.  Open war.  Active war.  More north-south interaction due to fighting.  Military houses could increase their field operations, everyone loves field operations.


* Declare peace.  More north-south interaction due to exchanging diplomats, and the diplomats' retainers.  What is an embasy, really, but a building chock-full of classy spies?  (Hey, the Renolte estate could be an embasy!)  With peace being declared, there would be more chances of nobles from the two city-states interacting.  Various noble houses could bring their favorite gladiators to the Luir's fighting pit and find out who grows the best mul gladiators once and for all!  It could even be an annual event.  Maybe a young Tennishi and a young Oash could have a little Romeo and Juliet style romance, complete with masacre.


* The rise of Stinal!  Or some other global threat.  Something that would make the Allanak-Tuluk rivalry pale in comparison.  The chance for enemies to be forced to grudgingly work together to combat a bigger threat.  Like when the Soviets and the West had to band together to stop the Nazis, but despite being allies they spent plenty of time schemeing against eachother to determine who would be dominent if/when the Nazis were out of the picture.


Ideas are good.


AC

[Anonymous]

AC, I'm not particularly sure that Templars need nobles in the North, especially due to the north's culture.  A northern templar could just as easily conduct business/socialize with hunting groups and merchant houses.  Well, from when I've played in the north they actually already do.

[Delirium]

Yeah, CRW, they could - however, it does get very lonely without someone to talk to as more or less an equal. No matter how valuable or trusted a commoner employee/contact is, the fact is, they're still commoners. Sometimes even templars need to kick back their heels and have a chat with a colleague that is more or less on their same level.

Though, I will admit this, the most fun was always templar-templar interaction. Nobles were usually more like a social tea-party with a few tidbits of politicking thrown in, while hanging out with your templar buddies almost always involved some down and dirty plotting alongside the friendly (or not so friendly) chit-chat.

[Stroker]

and the old mantis valley

From my understanding of the history, the Tuluki destroyed the Allanaki force present in the mantis valley. I assume that means Allanak no longer has supply routes going there and back.

[atalya]

What I keep thinking is - the night of the RPT, we had, what...120+ players on that night at ONE given time?

If we have that many players, truly - then I don't think the playerbase is too spread out. I think we're just all missing each other at a given time.


A.

[captjak]

As a player who has been there back in the days before Tuluk was destroyed, was there during the aftermath, the rebuilding, even the occupation (on both sides), I can honestly say leave it as is.  

The Reynolte estate, Silverwood, is and was a work of art, even after certain people butchered it for a while.  The Harzon gates was the Last Stand when the south invaded the north (poor Comrade Canadia, you remember what happened there *holds up a wooden spoon*).  

And for a long time, there was only two true houses you could play in Tuluk, Kadius and Reynolte, then one of them got closed, and people still kept coming to visit, and do things, trade was good, the Blackmoon raided the roads and we feared them.  A single hooded man in the middle of the road made you want to turn around and go the other way, if we had had the watch command back then, just think how effective the raiding parties would have been.

But Anyway, back to point.  With all the work done in rebuilding the North to the size it is now, then just to close it due to spread out player base I think would be a really bad idea.  The Byn would lose out, no more contracts for riding from city to city on guard.  The major Merchant houses would lose out because they would have to import alot more raw material from the North to their southern Houses, only having a limited ammount each crafter could work, whereas right now if you need say, a log, I can get you one in an hour or less.  If you thought overhunting was bad now, just imagine if you had one month where the hunting group of a single Merchant house would come up for a rl week and try to get as much as they could?  

Now, I appreciate the noble houses of the North, because they interact with the public for the most part, and invest in the public.  Last few times I have been south, I haven't even seen a Noble, only aides and guards that were wondering hey, where's my noble.  But, unfortunatly I cannot think of one good reason to close any of the open roles available, because each house has its own "flavor".  

In closing.  Even when Tuluk was destroyed, people came and business was done.  When it was rebuilding, people came, and we worked hard and built and gathered.  If it got shut down to only Silverwood, we would have the same number of Hunters, craftsmen, and other ways of building up skills, but we would not have the RP, the little tasty bits of flavor from the availability of four (or more) different bars to go to get away.  Dawn would come, everyone would scamper out to get the little bit that they could before returning before a sandstorm (or something nasty big) got them.

Those are my Two sid.

[Pantoufle]

Let's not forget that while closing the entire city-state, or whatever radical concept you've come up with may seem like a grand idea, I'm sure the players and staff who have spent an abundance of recent manhours working to create these clans and develop a rich history do not.

On one hand it may seem redundant to have two separate noble houses dedicated to the slave trade in each city-state.  On the other hand, and I'm only guessing here, maybe that was arranged deliberately.  However far the two city-states may be from one another, it's very likely these two noble houses would try to send spies on the other and learn their secrets, constantly battling to ensure their house is the greater version of the two.  And even if you don't think it is working, give it some time dude.  Pretty much every clan in Tuluk hasn't been around that long in the grand scheme of things.  Let the cemet dry at least before you talk about tearing it out and starting all over again.

I think shutting Allanak down as an alternative is overkill, as well.  From an IC standpoint, it looks really OOC for each village and/or city-state to fall, then rise again, one after the other.  It looks like OOC remodeling, regardless of what IC facade you use to rationalize in-game events.  Though I am bias, because Allanak is my favorite area of the game and would be very disappointed to see it go.

I'm also curious where this obsession with hating noble guards stems from.  Perhaps it is referencing the PCs as guards which is the root of the problem.  They aren't guards, NPCs are guards.  As a noble, I sure as shit am not about to ask some player to just stand there guarding me.  I think the only real problem comes with a lack of players in these roles.  Yes House Borsail could be holding routine slaving runs in the desert -- if it housed enough people to get the job done.  And it's likely House Tenneshi (and any other noble house) could petition their (wo)men-at-arms to go on wilderness missions too.  A lot of what some people here are saying is true: PC noble guards do just spar and chill at taverns.  Is it the fault of a spread out playerbase, or the abundance of independant characters who refuse to ever join a clan?  I don't know.  But no matter how many noble houses you have open, all it takes is two or three PCs "guards" in each to clan to hold routine RPTs in the wilderness and such.  I'm quite confident our present playerbase can support those numbers, it's just a matter of finding interested parties to take on these roles (and not get bored two weeks later before they're even skilled enough).

...all in my most humble, abased, lowly opinion, of course.

[Trenidor]

Tuluk and Allanak are opposite worlds (white/black) (Vegitive/Desolate) (Republican/Democrat) (Hunters/thieves) (Trees/Obsidian)

And the like. Closing down tuluk would cause commoner to templar interaction to decrease. Hunters would be replaced with thieves. Trees would no longer be used. etc

The result of doing anything drastic would result in drastically changing the whole gameworld. On the other hand, if we were to continue at the steady turtle pace we're going, we can't even predict what could happen.

Rome Wasn't built in a day, in fact, they didn't have any women there till they stole them from their neighbors.

If we give things time, changes will occur that will be just as drastic as what you guys are suggesting, but it will also be changes that are enevitable (*spelling*). People can't avoid these changes, they'll slowly adapt to them on the way up, then when they are at their peak, everyone will be used to them.

Now I'm sure you'll bring up a counter for this, like that you could just slowly kill off tuluk. But I don't think that'd be possible. Too many players are with me in fending for tuluk that, closing off tuluk would end up the RP of killing all the templars and other officials in Tuluk. We'd end up just some do what you want place, but we already have a city like that, sort of, and it'd result in the loss of players because it'd be more boring to see two identical cities than to see two opposite poles of a magnite.

[Stroker]

In the very least, instead of closing down the city-state, perhaps other noble houses can be opened for player interaction. Such as the Uaptaal or the Lyscoe, etc. I think closing down the entire city-state is a bit over the top. It is truly a different place, no matter how you try to argue that it isn't. Indeed, perhaps the clans are somewhat similar, but the -feel- of the city is completely different. It doesn't hold the same raw tone as Allanak, it is more soothing with its elegant architecture and other art, etc.

Now, onto a different point ....

I think shutting Allanak down as an alternative is overkill, as well. From an IC standpoint, it looks really OOC for each village and/or city-state to fall, then rise again, one after the other. It looks like OOC remodeling, regardless of what IC facade you use to rationalize in-game events. Though I am bias, because Allanak is my favorite area of the game and would be very disappointed to see it go.

Actually, realistically, the rise and fall of empires, city-states, etc should be common. Many empires spanned hundreds of years and crumbled away, yielding to others (on earth). Why shouldn't the same happen on Zalanthas? Given appropriate opposition, it just may occurr.

[SpyGuy]

Now, onto a different point ....

I think shutting Allanak down as an alternative is overkill, as well. From an IC standpoint, it looks really OOC for each village and/or city-state to fall, then rise again, one after the other. It looks like OOC remodeling, regardless of what IC facade you use to rationalize in-game events. Though I am bias, because Allanak is my favorite area of the game and would be very disappointed to see it go.

Actually, realistically, the rise and fall of empires, city-states, etc should be common. Many empires spanned hundreds of years and crumbled away, yielding to others (on earth). Why shouldn't the same happen on Zalanthas? Given appropriate opposition, it just may occurr.

As long as Tek is on the top of his game, Allanak would stand.  It was when Muk was defeated and had to retreat that Tuluk fell.  RL doesnt give us the perspective of city-states with ?immortal? god-kings.

But other than that, good points by everyone.  Tuluk may not need to be closed, but looking at some of these ideas (whether to expand the operations of noble houses or to replace them with significantly different clan types) there are ideas for improvement.  But anyway, I'd just like to see player run intrigue on the higher levels grow to intense proportions, so much so that it'd ripple down to the aide/guard/sneaky rinther level with plots in plots and multiple partners.  That would mean drawing more into the noble houses of one city or another, my preference being 'nak of course.

[Stroker]

You don't even know if Tektolnes or Muk Utep are even alive. For all you know that Dragon that came to save Allanak from the slave rebellion was just some facade put on by a powerful Black Robed Templar. And as far as Muk Utep, he hasn't shown himself in a bajillion years, so as far as you know he may not even exist as well. True, the citizens of either city-states -think- they exist. That doesn't make it true. However, I must admit that our earth empires do not compare to those of Zalanathas, and that is precisely why added - given the proper opposition.