What would entice you to play more in the cities?

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines  of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.

Templar and noble PC's should be able to be oppressive to the common folk, while actually providing opportunities for players to make coin, find some action, etc. All this while NOT just having people killed on a whim. Currently, we have some good ones in both roles imho. Able to be pompous and demanding, while giving out tasks that are hard, but not impossible to achieve. Definitely a factor to consider when choosing city play for me.

[Pariah]

A lot of stuff

I would say, you should try it again, I've had an apartment on my last three or four PCs and so far never been stolen from or at least never been ransacked from.  I think the folks who sit there breaking and entering all day wax and wane.  Right now is definitely a wane period.

But because I just said that, there is probably someone who's going to grind the shit outta lockpicking to become the terror or apartment owners the known over.

[Tuannon]

Had some pretty good ones, one quit over staff bullshit and the other quit over IC bullshit as far as I know. But by all means, game on.

[Recharge]

I have a hard time playing city roles. Something about being stuck in a place never sat well with me. I've also gotten bored in the past and wandered outside the gates to explore. Most of my pcs have died outside the walls, I think.
One thing could be more incentive for independent characters, ie. more places to sell/buy raw goods, get water of varying quality. etc. Helping those who go against the grain could mean fewer clanned pcs but more people killing wildlife. Once that wildlife is gone people are more likely to return to the cities. Poorer people are also more likely to join clans. Everyone wants that stipend to further bling out their character. More unique pieces of equipment could drive people across the Known to find them.
I'm just pulling things outta my ass at this point. I could be reaching but I think it could help.

[Agent_137]

I need my long-lived, useful, cooperative, bribe-offering PCs to stop getting killed behind closed doors by Templars who fail to find IC reasons for taking a bribe instead of taking offense. I also like to do my own thing and not be ordered around on pain of death just because I'm playing a capable PC.

I suggest the Templar role be changed to just focus on countering magical threats. Leave the militia to police commoners and encourage them to take bribes over punishment. See also what makes a good templar. 

Even if that happens though, I would still have no interest in virtual politics, a dystopian state with an extreme caste system, nor people plying their power into unenthusiastic sex.  That's all too real for me, thanks.

[digitaleak]

I'd say having something of note taking place in the various parts of the city semi-regularly would be fun. (Events and plots in parts of the city that aren't the taverns or marketplaces.) Large portions of both cities feel off limits, and perhaps for good reason. But if so, I bet a lot of people would like to see why.

Even if there are larger plots that involve specific houses or clans, it would be fun to watch that bleed over into the general population who would not have much reason to be in those parts of town otherwise. (Perhaps this has been discussed previously in this thread as well as a million times within the GDB at large, and I'm just ignorant to that.)

I try to think of it like what makes cities thrive IRL? It seems like having more players spending time and money in different parts of town will generate more interest or ideas for how to utilize that in city game play.

[whengravityfails]

I need my long-lived, useful, cooperative, bribe-offering PCs to stop getting killed behind closed doors by Templars who fail to find IC reasons for taking a bribe instead of taking offense. I also like to do my own thing and not be ordered around on pain of death just because I'm playing a capable PC.

I suggest the Templar role be changed to just focus on countering magical threats. Leave the militia to police commoners and encourage them to take bribes over punishment. See also what makes a good templar. 

Even if that happens though, I would still have no interest in virtual politics, a dystopian state with an extreme caste system, nor people plying their power into unenthusiastic sex.  That's all too real for me, thanks.

This pretty much echoes how I feel about it, and I love the idea of Templars just being focused on countering magickal threats instead of being omnipresent headaches for Talia the Grebber and his fifty sid (or worse, certain "favors" because of being in the position to lean hard into extracting them).

[Trevalyan]

This pretty much echoes how I feel about it, and I love the idea of Templars just being focused on countering magickal threats instead of being omnipresent headaches for Talia the Grebber and his fifty sid (or worse, certain "favors" because of being in the position to lean hard into extracting them).

That -would- solve the additional problem of the playerbase allegedly being too magical...

[zealus]

I think removing politics from the Templar role will neuter it into something I don't really like.
That being said: Less petty mean girls politicking would be nice in general. Just because you're bored, doesn't mean you need to needlessly antagonize random people.

[Armaddict]

I think removing politics from the Templar role will neuter it into something I don't really like.

I agree. 

That -would- solve the additional problem of the playerbase allegedly being too magical...

Not really.  It would require a higher presence of magick to make the role even make sense, since they are city-bound.  The gemmed, however, are the viable tool for what you're speaking of, where gemmed are routinely sent out to find the rogues.  Using templars for the equivalent role makes real magickal threat to the city a necessity to explain their purpose.  That's a transition of setting.

That being said: Less petty mean girls politicking would be nice in general. Just because you're bored, doesn't mean you need to needlessly antagonize random people.

I can never tell what is meant by what kind of RP from templars because it can be so many different things, but in the sense of true pettiness...sometimes it's totally sensible, other times it's purely brought about by lack of things to politick -about-.  So that leads to people just...making shit up.

Mostly, I think there just needs to be a realization that templars are already the death grip on the city aside from rare circumstances.  They don't have to go out and involve themselves in every other person's plot to prove it.  They don't need to exert power to get kudos points for being ruthless.  They don't need to ever-present meddlers; to the contrary, they need to do their role of preserving -relative- order to the city while not stifling with it.  It's a hard balance, but again, this is often something coming about from precious little to do because they've already stifled a lot of it, or because people are just not willing to take risks in the first place.  So again, they end up having to create reasons to be involved in things.

I think reducing it to 'mean girls' is petty in itself.

[Trevalyan]

That -would- solve the additional problem of the playerbase allegedly being too magical...

Not really.  It would require a higher presence of magick to make the role even make sense, since they are city-bound.  The gemmed, however, are the viable tool for what you're speaking of, where gemmed are routinely sent out to find the rogues.  Using templars for the equivalent role makes real magickal threat to the city a necessity to explain their purpose.  That's a transition of setting.

I'm thinking of something more thorough than just rogue gickers, at least as individuals. It wouldn't be about gickers as an actual threat: but a perceived threat "justifying" a templar hunt. The cities and especially their rulers have real reason to persecute rogue magick, don't you think?

[BadSkeelz]

Templars really turned to shit when the current Ministry system was added. Before that, (PC) Blue Robes were constantly jockeying for position relative to each other; they were still prone to petty Mean Girls shit and boneheaded play, but no templar was truly safe and able to just swing their dick around willynilly. [Examples of bad and narrow-minded Ministry played excised so as not offend sensibilities but I could name some doozies for every branch]. They're all supposed to stay in their lanes, where they're allowed to just run roughshod over anyone. It leads to rather one-dimensional characters with obvious agendas. When Templars were just Templars, they had to at least try and round out their skillsets and spheres of ability and were vulnerable to having their influence or glory poached by others.

Of course, this system only works when you can have two or more (ideally three) Templars in game competing with each other. That's been very hard to achieve for a few years now, even before losing half the playerbase.

Allanak political life needs a serious overhaul to make it more competitive within itself and more interesting to engage in. Hard to pull off without radically rewriting the setting and asking for a lot more oversight from Staff, though. I'm of the opinion that either Templars or Nobles have to go; there's not enough to actually do to keep both classes of characters engaged. If it were up to me I'd make Templars NPC only (showing up only when shit has seriously hit the fan to everyone's horror) and leave the day-to-day running of Allanak to the nobility. Close the AOD but let noble Houses sponsor their own crews of House troops who also have crimcode immunity, serving as guards and muscle at their noble patron's whims. Oash and Jal at least can both hire magickers, leaving the Allanaki PC population a player-resource against rogues. Staff would need to monitor the nobility so that NPC Templars can reward active and successful Houses with increased stipends or other rewards (not to mention give PCs the assistance they need to actually achieve anything tangible in game), as well as check those who become too successful and might conceivably threaten the Templarate's power (sorcerer nobles beware).

Anyway, that's just spitballing.

[LidlessEye]

Templars really turned to shit when the current Ministry system was added. Before that, (PC) Blue Robes were constantly jockeying for position relative to each other; they were still prone to petty Mean Girls shit and boneheaded play, but no templar was truly safe and able to just swing their dick around willynilly. [Examples of bad and narrow-minded Ministry played excised so as not offend sensibilities but I could name some doozies for every branch]. They're all supposed to stay in their lanes, where they're allowed to just run roughshod over anyone. It leads to rather one-dimensional characters with obvious agendas. When Templars were just Templars, they had to at least try and round out their skillsets and spheres of ability and were vulnerable to having their influence or glory poached by others.

Of course, this system only works when you can have two or more (ideally three) Templars in game competing with each other. That's been very hard to achieve for a few years now, even before losing half the playerbase.

Allanak political life needs a serious overhaul to make it more competitive within itself and more interesting to engage in. Hard to pull off without radically rewriting the setting and asking for a lot more oversight from Staff, though. I'm of the opinion that either Templars or Nobles have to go; there's not enough to actually do to keep both classes of characters engaged. If it were up to me I'd make Templars NPC only (showing up only when shit has seriously hit the fan to everyone's horror) and leave the day-to-day running of Allanak to the nobility. Close the AOD but let noble Houses sponsor their own crews of House troops who also have crimcode immunity, serving as guards and muscle at their noble patron's whims. Oash and Jal at least can both hire magickers, leaving the Allanaki PC population a player-resource against rogues. Staff would need to monitor the nobility so that NPC Templars can reward active and successful Houses with increased stipends or other rewards (not to mention give PCs the assistance they need to actually achieve anything tangible in game), as well as check those who become too successful and might conceivably threaten the Templarate's power (sorcerer nobles beware).

Anyway, that's just spitballing.

+1

[Supified]

Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines  of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.

Templar and noble PC's should be able to be oppressive to the common folk, while actually providing opportunities for players to make coin, find some action, etc. All this while NOT just having people killed on a whim. Currently, we have some good ones in both roles imho. Able to be pompous and demanding, while giving out tasks that are hard, but not impossible to achieve. Definitely a factor to consider when choosing city play for me.

I hate this view and I hate the people who enable it.  The idea that "we have good ones" in templar roles says that the staff and policies and culture of this game never learns a dang thing.  How many ways can we say it's the templar's stupid before rules are put in place that actually prevent the templars from ruining the game.  There is literally a thread (this one) about cities not being played in.  Why would people possibly want to not play in cities.  One excellent comment about how cities are less safe to play in than the wilderness.  Why? Because templars are so powerful.  Thievery maybe secondarily, but only in cities can a templar whimsically ruin literally years of work on a whim. 

The thing about this argument that I hate so so much is that while there might be good tempars now all it takes is one to get bored and retired and the staff to have a very limited pool and select someone who shouldn't be in the role (that's happened how many times in the past few months along) and then there to be an exodus of people from cities.

This makes no sense because while templars are supposed to be tyrannical and all powerful the world is also supposed to be full of people and from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense that all that tyranny is felt by players and not the npcs and vnpcs.

So whats the solution?  It's obviously some rule changes, but god forbid this game put in place rules that make it actually less harsh anywhere. 

[Krath]

Templars really turned to shit when the current Ministry system was added. Before that, (PC) Blue Robes were constantly jockeying for position relative to each other; they were still prone to petty Mean Girls shit and boneheaded play, but no templar was truly safe and able to just swing their dick around willynilly. [Examples of bad and narrow-minded Ministry played excised so as not offend sensibilities but I could name some doozies for every branch]. They're all supposed to stay in their lanes, where they're allowed to just run roughshod over anyone. It leads to rather one-dimensional characters with obvious agendas. When Templars were just Templars, they had to at least try and round out their skillsets and spheres of ability and were vulnerable to having their influence or glory poached by others.

Of course, this system only works when you can have two or more (ideally three) Templars in game competing with each other. That's been very hard to achieve for a few years now, even before losing half the playerbase.

Allanak political life needs a serious overhaul to make it more competitive within itself and more interesting to engage in. Hard to pull off without radically rewriting the setting and asking for a lot more oversight from Staff, though. I'm of the opinion that either Templars or Nobles have to go; there's not enough to actually do to keep both classes of characters engaged. If it were up to me I'd make Templars NPC only (showing up only when shit has seriously hit the fan to everyone's horror) and leave the day-to-day running of Allanak to the nobility. Close the AOD but let noble Houses sponsor their own crews of House troops who also have crimcode immunity, serving as guards and muscle at their noble patron's whims. Oash and Jal at least can both hire magickers, leaving the Allanaki PC population a player-resource against rogues. Staff would need to monitor the nobility so that NPC Templars can reward active and successful Houses with increased stipends or other rewards (not to mention give PCs the assistance they need to actually achieve anything tangible in game), as well as check those who become too successful and might conceivably threaten the Templarate's power (sorcerer nobles beware).

Anyway, that's just spitballing.

Well Said. I agree with everything you said in here, and if I had to pick would remove the Templars and AOD, and go the route you suggested of Nobles having their own crews.

[Patuk]

I hate this view and I hate the people who enable it.  The idea that "we have good ones" in templar roles says that the staff and policies and culture of this game never learns a dang thing.  How many ways can we say it's the templar's stupid before rules are put in place that actually prevent the templars from ruining the game.  There is literally a thread (this one) about cities not being played in.  Why would people possibly want to not play in cities.  One excellent comment about how cities are less safe to play in than the wilderness.  Why? Because templars are so powerful.  Thievery maybe secondarily, but only in cities can a templar whimsically ruin literally years of work on a whim. 

The thing about this argument that I hate so so much is that while there might be good tempars now all it takes is one to get bored and retired and the staff to have a very limited pool and select someone who shouldn't be in the role (that's happened how many times in the past few months along) and then there to be an exodus of people from cities.

This makes no sense because while templars are supposed to be tyrannical and all powerful the world is also supposed to be full of people and from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense that all that tyranny is felt by players and not the npcs and vnpcs.

So whats the solution?  It's obviously some rule changes, but god forbid this game put in place rules that make it actually less harsh anywhere.

I'm going to echo this sentiment right here, because I agree with it in full. A good example is Tuluk's current iteration: terrible documentation, but good players in its templar roles. If a role is one asshole away from disaster, and when staff is unwilling to rectify that, the game's cities are going to empty out now and then; people don't want to be around these guys.

[papertiger]

Are there NO authorities that a Templar has to appease (even if those authorities are things like the generation of commerce in the city, or whatever concept)? It seems to me driving off the workforce and trade should be heavily balanced and that there should be goals to the Templar role to bring people in while still laying on oppression. I'm a new player and actually don't know. But I assume Templars profit most by courting nobility and traders and keeping the commoners and slaves from rioting as it would generate the most profit for the city. There may be different ways to handle this of course sprinkled with some nice opportunities for exploitation. Im not saying give the commoners a vote or anything so democratic because clearly that's silly when they should be scary superbads. Templar Bob should be hunted by Templar Joe if Bob has caused a slave riot by cutting off the slaves water supply or whatver thing because Bob aint got no time for all these pesky slave outbursts. There may be NPCs or PCs that poke at this? Again, no idea.
Part of me thinks it's a shame there are two cities but I understand their concepts are intended to be very different and there have been experiments closing it that didn't work so I can't comment there.

[Krath]

I feel as though the focus on templars should be three things:

1. Protection of those within City - City Ministry
2. Increasing Trade - not extorting the merchant houses - Trade Ministry
3. Disrupting the above items for the Other City State and dealing with outside threats - War Ministry

If the templarate are not working towards those goals, what are the point of the different ministries. Trade ministry templar's should be doing everything they can to bring people INTO the city to do trade and commerce, while the war ministry keeps the roads and sands around the city safe for the travelers/merchants/refugees, and when you enter the city, City ministry should ensure you are safe, to a degree if you are an outsider.

It feels, and maybe this isnt true, like there is no direction for the templars, except do what you want until a staff run plot comes along.

More often than not, when I am in nak, it feels like I am part of the Stanford Prison Experiment, which is why I avoid it all together unless I need to join the byn.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines  of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.

Templar and noble PC's should be able to be oppressive to the common folk, while actually providing opportunities for players to make coin, find some action, etc. All this while NOT just having people killed on a whim. Currently, we have some good ones in both roles imho. Able to be pompous and demanding, while giving out tasks that are hard, but not impossible to achieve. Definitely a factor to consider when choosing city play for me.

I hate this view and I hate the people who enable it.  The idea that "we have good ones" in templar roles says that the staff and policies and culture of this game never learns a dang thing.  How many ways can we say it's the templar's stupid before rules are put in place that actually prevent the templars from ruining the game.  There is literally a thread (this one) about cities not being played in.  Why would people possibly want to not play in cities.  One excellent comment about how cities are less safe to play in than the wilderness.  Why? Because templars are so powerful.  Thievery maybe secondarily, but only in cities can a templar whimsically ruin literally years of work on a whim. 

The thing about this argument that I hate so so much is that while there might be good tempars now all it takes is one to get bored and retired and the staff to have a very limited pool and select someone who shouldn't be in the role (that's happened how many times in the past few months along) and then there to be an exodus of people from cities.

This makes no sense because while templars are supposed to be tyrannical and all powerful the world is also supposed to be full of people and from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense that all that tyranny is felt by players and not the npcs and vnpcs.

So whats the solution?  It's obviously some rule changes, but god forbid this game put in place rules that make it actually less harsh anywhere.

Edited because I think my wording was poor and giving the wrong idea, so I am restating for clarity.

In keeping with the theme of the game, I believe PC Templar's should be, from an RP perspective, able to make a commoner FEEL oppressed, while in actuality, providing that PC with the means and ambition to achieve goals, make coin, feed themselves etc. If a Templar is simply finding active, successful PC's and demanding taxes or death, that imho, is NOT a 'good' one. Yes, let's figure out how to deal with that.

[Riev]

Outdated, but I remember when player clans were barely a fledgling. If you were found to have trade in the city outside the GMHs, you needed to be licensed. Licensed people were recorded and extorted to bring coin into the PC Templar's pockets.

HOWEVER, the Templars never knew how much the commoner traders were making, so they'd extort that entire month's worth of profits, or more, under pain of jail. Because the PLAYER of the commoner didn't want to have to sell 20 black silk braies just to make ends meet (and, by documentation, should have been focused on their 'specialty' anyway).

That has been exacerbated now that every PC is expected to have coin to fill a Templar's pockets, and the threat or actual execution of death is always looming. I suggest that while that COULD be thematic, its not entertaining, fun, or storytelling. We're all here to tell a story, and sometimes the abusive templar IS the story, but when backed up by staff animations it feels, as a player, like extending the animosity staff have for players into the game world.

[dumbstruck]

More often than not, when I am in nak, it feels like I am part of the Stanford Prison Experiment, which is why I avoid it all together unless I need to join the byn.

This, I think. Only, replace the unless part with what I've been saying about how I would be more than happy to come back to the city as like a noble or gmh merchant family member or something that was fun and essentially, not another prisoner, so to speak, borrowing from the analogy above. I have way too much exposure to shit from Nakki commoner life IRL to want to be that in what I'm looking for for escape from my day to day life in playing a different role. But ouch how on the head it is, the bolded above, for my feelings. Like, I literally did not know they could be summed up so neatly.

[Classclown]

If you apply for any leadership role, or pursue one ig, you should accept that you are there to create plots and opportunities for rp for other people. It's not about you or your pc. You're a facilitator. That is your real purpose, especially Nobles and Templars. You should always be thinking "How can I involve more characters in this plot or create fun rp moments for the common pcs?" Order weapons and armor and clothes and spice, that creates a purpose for GMH pcs. Hire Bynners to go on crazy adventures for hard to find or new materials and not just for escorts to Luirs.

Also, the people of Allanak are already oppressed and have been for centuries. They've been tamed. I don't think most people enjoy attacking someone who's already submitted. Where's the fun in that?

[NinjaFruitSalad]

These are all actually some good points here.

There are thousands and thousands of citizens living within a city. And so, why would nobles or templars feel the need to pick on one particular slave or commoner? I totally get that nobles and templars are the rare breed, and thus one should be walking on eggshells and treating them with utmost respect. The respect and deference always goes upwards. But unprovoked abuse and extortion (punching downward) on random Joe Schmoe doesn't make much sense.

Theoretically, it's possible you have a bad day, you decide to make the next person you see suffer and make their day hell. But you surely have seen dozens of other people before you get to an actual PC. Just the sheer statistical improbability of it all is what bothers me. Also if you want to analyze this numerically, just think about it. If you demand 300 coins from one person, there's hundreds of other people you can (and probably would) shake down like this. This easily would turn into tens of thousands of coins.

I don't think there's any value in random fines and extortion. It seems some people forget that templars DO answer to an authority.. that being the Sun King or the High Lord. And so one has to wonder, what are their goals and their values? Obviously, if you killed/drove everyone off, they would have no city to rule. And templars and nobles were chosen for a certain purpose. They should be fulfilling that purpose and working for overall betterment of the city or glory to their king. Some tangible purpose, aside from "I can do whatever I want."

[Riev]

The issue comes from this key issue:

Staff love when Templars/Nobles "stir the pot" and create drama like this. As players, we feel driven away from the city. As staff, they see it as an antagonist plot.

However, they also reinforce the behavior by rewarding it. And then months later ask why people keep saying "I dislike [city]". Is the answer "get rid of that one Templar" probably not. However, threatening to force store leadership that doesn't want to play around your plaything templars is not earning any trust points either.

[Krath]

However, threatening to force store leadership that doesn't want to play around your plaything templars is not earning any trust points either.

If the above is happening, please file a staff complaint. That is unacceptable behavior. If you as a PC, do not want to interact with a templar/noble/any PC, you should be able to do so, and yes deal with the IC, NOT OOC, consequences. Telling something they are going to be force stored if they do not do something is ridiculous. If it happened because a player did not want to interact with a noble and/or templar, then I would say that qualifies as a very good reason why players SHOULD stay away from the cities.