Feedback on playing and log-ins

[CirclelessBard]

Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.

I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.

I think closure is worth more to most people than what is implied by Shabago's quoted post, especially when people are deeply invested in something. Armageddon may be just a game, but it is a game that commands a deeper investment from people than most games of its kind. It stands to reason that people would be reluctant to play a game that pained them, even if the incident happened long ago. The staff team may have been different back then, and the individual staff members most responsible for pain inflicted on players may be long gone and unable to apologize for their actions. But I think what matters to people considering returning to the game is that the current staff aren't repeating the mistakes of old staff members. I think this also matters for people not considering returning to the game but who care about the well-being of the game and its players. The wide range in tone of responses from staff both here and on Discord makes it hard to tell how staff feel about the gap in quality of communication.

Just to be clear. This was as recently as two years ago and with current staff.

I see. I'm sorry, I focused more on the "5, 10, 15 years ago" part of the reply you quoted and didn't really think to assume otherwise. In that case, I sincerely hope you get any explanation or conclusion you might be seeking.

[Halaster]

I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.

If you like, you could put in a request to talk about that.  I for one honestly have no idea what incident you're talking about.

[Halaster]

In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa.  Once it's worked out, we'll publish it.  Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.

What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables.  That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be.  But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down.  This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring).  When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.

[mansa]

In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa.  Once it's worked out, we'll publish it.  Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.

What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables.  That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be.  But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down.  This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring).  When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.

Is that an extension of this:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57424.0.html

[Halaster]

In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa.  Once it's worked out, we'll publish it.  Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.

What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables.  That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be.  But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down.  This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring).  When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.

Is that an extension of this:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57424.0.html

No, it's going to be more of a communications document. 

[Dresan]

I came late to the party and know some of these things have already been mentioned but I just want to emphisis some points that have prevented me from playing for a long while.

Skill Grind: This game keeps ignoring this issue at their own risk.

I might have thought the current skill grind was okay 10 years ago, but I no longer have the luxury of that time. With exception to melee combat there needs to be an option to skip the grind. The difference between a character with novice backstab/sap and max backstab/sap is time. Time that I no longer have the willpower or freedom to commit. Even with a class like miscreants, getting a skill like sneak/hide to max is just a hassle.

Additionally, in a game where you have to invest time to create a character, and make friends, RP you way up the food chain, the skill grind is the least enjoyable of our time spent in this game. This is compounded by the fact that historically both staff and players have sometimes ICly or OOCLy used PK and storage as a form of punishment. Depriving the player of the fun from the RL time they have invested in their character, further making the skill grind no different than salt to these wounds.

No it shouldn't cost me a mundane subclass and starting with just advanced skills is still tedious grinding. Please spare me the skill grind which i've already done it for the 100th time and coming back to play won't feel like such a damn chore. 

The decline of indies Balance has never been this game's fort. And sometimes when there have been problems, the solution has been to do a 180 in the opposite direction. Idies used to be strong and popular especially in tuluk. There were a couple reason for this including ranger classes, ability to train to high levels on agile animals, wealth,etc etc.

Yes, these things needed to get looked at, but the game went too far in the other direction. For example, making clans one of the few ways to effective train nelee combat skills. At the same times most of the problem with clans remained the same, particularly the stale mate between clans and inability for character to make big changes to the status quo.

I know clans work for most people, but I personally find them very boring and feel joining them limit my ability to enjoy this game. I really wish the game/staff would stop trying to force me into these boring little groups by making the indie concepts I enjoy less viable to play. At the very least, give clans more to do so the sponsored roles aren't so bored they have nothing better to do than to dogpile my indie for any lame ass reason.   Overall the decline of indies has been a source of lost conflict within the game.


Desert storms, classes, and subclasses I was waiting for some changes on these things. This is not really a deal breaker for me not playing like the above. That said, desert storms severities especially between civilized hubs really represents ArmageddonMud's outdated way of thinking in regard to 'time invested vs fun'. I really want to see this be change to something that promotes more interaction rather than prevents. With classes/subclasses, I am eager to see change just hoping things don't once again go from one extreme to the other. However, there have been better theads on the subject. 


All that said, I have nothing to say about butthurt between both players and staff. I do personally feel there is always been too much ooc talk, favoritism and outright cheating in this game. I wish the game would continue to take steps to level the playing field for all and further reduce the impact of cheating and favoritism between staff and players.

[najdorf]

Skill Grind: This game keeps ignoring this issue at their own risk.

It is great for people to express their opinions and to form a public opinion. For this very reason, let me state my opinion on the above subject so that it can be taken into consideration: This is one of my red lines. I'd probably stop playing if skilling up is made extremely easy, or in a way that requires PvP interaction, etc.

[Dresan]

...let me state my opinion on the above subject so that it can be taken into consideration: This is one of my red lines. I'd probably stop playing if skilling up is made extremely easy, or in a way that requires PvP interaction, etc.

Just some quick thoughts:

• I am not sure what challenges you face skilling up hide/sneak or even skills like backstab/sap but after a few characters the only challenge I face is personal time
• I am not suggesting that the game does away with skill grind but instead have the option of skipping it completely for some people who no longer find learning ride for the 100th time as hard as you
• Melee combat is excluded from being skipped. This is just due the way the game determines a winner in conflict and the fact that melee combat becomes deadlier than backstab/most spells at a certain point .
• Lastly while skilling up melee combat doesn't fully require pvp interaction, it still doesn't fall too short of this requirement in its current implementation

[dunecrawler]

Sneak/hide comes with the risk of being seen and outed as 'that sneaky guy'. Backstab is even worse, you need to either murder actual humanoids and face either lawless areas or crimecode, or <gasp> go outside. You might have to break the rules of your clan, or risk dying to whatever you run into out there.

[Narf]

Skill Grind: This game keeps ignoring this issue at their own risk.

It is great for people to express their opinions and to form a public opinion. For this very reason, let me state my opinion on the above subject so that it can be taken into consideration: This is one of my red lines. I'd probably stop playing if skilling up is made extremely easy, or in a way that requires PvP interaction, etc.

One way to decrease the need for a skill grind without removing it might be to alter the mechanics of the game to give low-tier skills more utility.

Combat already works this way. Characters with a low and mid tier weapons skills can easily hit most opponents anyways, and only have issues in certain situations. Crafting also has made a small inroad towards this by emphasizing that some crafts are easy enough that low skilled people can do them, though I think there's currently a reliability issue with that.

If you tinkered with all the skills to ensure that people with apprentice and journeyman had definitively useful tasks they could accomplish with every skill, the need for skill grinding would dissipate without actually removing it from the game.

[CirclelessBard]

In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa.  Once it's worked out, we'll publish it.  Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.

As one of the people that has repeatedly brought up the subject in this thread, I look forward to reading it and my friends who used to play Armageddon look forward to reading it as well.

What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables.  That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be.  But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down.  This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring).  When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.

I think this is the right approach. Personally, I'm not interested in seeing staff punished for things. I do think a "shape up or ship out" type of outlook is needed though and that seems to be covered under "extremely recurring" circumstances.

Ultimately, I look forward to reading this document once it's done. I will provide more feedback then and I hope other players will as well.

[Shabago]

Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

[Riev]

10) When dealing with a problem player, especially in terms of any form of repercussions for their actions, handle it in a professional manner.  If you are upset about what they've done, see number 6 above.

Is there any way to even begin to identify "a problem player"?

[Furious George]

I'm curious how staff defines that as well.

[Dar]

How would you define a problem customer? Anyone in retail/sales here?

[Fragmented]

10) When dealing with a problem player, especially in terms of any form of repercussions for their actions, handle it in a professional manner.  If you are upset about what they've done, see number 6 above.

Is there any way to even begin to identify "a problem player"?

You could begin to identify them by seeing how many of the Player Guidelines they have violated or refuse to acknowledge in their interactions.

I feel that the question being asked is a way of looking for boundaries, so they can be pushed. Players know when they're out of line.

[Riev]

Keep your feelings to yourself.

The question is there because it identifies only players as a problem, and if thats a label that can be put on me for "being salty one day" I feel like I deserve to know. Especially when a "problem player" could receive less support, account notes added that aren't known about, and future-tainted for new staff that didn't know I was a jerk one time.

So. Its kind of important, not to "push boundaries", but to know where I sit as a player.

[Fragmented]

Keep your feelings to yourself.

The question is there because it identifies only players as a problem, and if thats a label that can be put on me for "being salty one day" I feel like I deserve to know. Especially when a "problem player" could receive less support, account notes added that aren't known about, and future-tainted for new staff that didn't know I was a jerk one time.

So. Its kind of important, not to "push boundaries", but to know where I sit as a player.

If we all kept our feelings to ourselves, I suspect this thread wouldn't be 20 pages long, a goodly portion of it provided by "salty" non-players who have made it very clear they hate the game, hate the staff, hate the players, etc and plan to never be back but are being kind enough to lay their feelings out for the rest of us. Good thing we don't have to keep feelings to ourselves. Your question also didn't ask for clarification of when the label was appropriate, it suggested that such a label wasn't even possible. Pushing boundaries - how "salty" can I be before I face consequences for being an asshole?

[Furious George]

Not sure what happened there.  I'm sure I'm not being the one who hates the game, players and staff.  I just am not a fan of getting a label in my account notes that sits there for 15 years because someone has a bad day, on either side.

[Riev]

Keep your feelings to yourself.

The question is there because it identifies only players as a problem, and if thats a label that can be put on me for "being salty one day" I feel like I deserve to know. Especially when a "problem player" could receive less support, account notes added that aren't known about, and future-tainted for new staff that didn't know I was a jerk one time.

So. Its kind of important, not to "push boundaries", but to know where I sit as a player.

If we all kept our feelings to ourselves, I suspect this thread wouldn't be 20 pages long, a goodly portion of it provided by "salty" non-players who have made it very clear they hate the game, hate the staff, hate the players, etc and plan to never be back but are being kind enough to lay their feelings out for the rest of us. Good thing we don't have to keep feelings to ourselves. Your question also didn't ask for clarification of when the label was appropriate, it suggested that such a label wasn't even possible. Pushing boundaries - how "salty" can I be before I face consequences for being an asshole?

I asked how you would even begin to identify a problem player. In no way was I suggesting it can't be done. Stop looking for a fight.

I also do not give a slight care about your feelings on "players that are planning to never come back by laying out their feelings". This is what the purpose of the thread was, and what was asked for. If you don't like it, thats not anyone else's problem but yours. Stop complaining about people doing what they were asked, and asking questions.

Like George, I do wonder about having "bad" account notes that follow me for 15 years. If I did things back then, am I still a "problem player"? If I have a note that says "No more sponsored roles, ever" is that a fair note?

I think we should know what makes you a "problem player".

[kahuna]

I see no mention of problem staff. Is it possible that there is no such thing? Especially with where the game stands right now, can the game even afford to remove "problem" staff? Probably not, so even if a staff member causes problem it's likely they aren't going anywhere, the game can't afford to lose them?

[Halaster]

You're missing the message and the intent.

"When dealing with a problem player, especially in terms of any form of repercussions for their actions, handle it in a professional manner.  If you are upset about what they've done, see number 6 above."

We're not laying out a criteria for what is or isn't a problem player, and in fact we don't have some kind of official label for that.  The point here is that staff are expected to deal with them respectfully and professionally, and if they get upset, get someone else to step in.  This is meant to address a situation where someone has done something to get "in trouble" and direct staff not to let their judgement get clouded by emotion.

[Riev]

Suggestion: Replace "Problem Player" with something better. Problem Situation, Corrective Action, etc.

Problem Player sounds like the player is already being blamed for whatever is happening.

[tiny rainbow]

It seems just like a thing with wording than a policy issue, it obviously means that even if someone has problems personally with someone (considers someone a problem), it's saying person B should still act in a professional way (e.g. treat everyone equally

Even though staff said it's not an official label it might be worth looking at that, since if one person can misunderstand the meaning then it might not be clear to people in the future - for example that thread was created 6 years ago by people that might not be around anymore to give clarification to players or new staff reading it, or be able to read the posts made here that clarify it which will probably be piled under and hard to find later

elephantjournal.com/2015/06/in-regards-to-toxic-people
(Like a lot of websites - Armageddon's main page even has Google and Amazon - this contains web beacons from Google, Paypal, mxpnl, Instagram/Facebook, and Cloudfront (Amazon), this is merged with any real life information given to these companies and sold on - The Internet Archive does not have these so is a clean version)

The topic of toxic people is frequently referenced in articles and books, and I have even attended corporate workshops that address this matter.

..
We can address the behavior, if appropriate, but it is so critical to be aware of our perspectives which will affect our intentions and, therefore, our approach in doing this.

We can choose to distance ourselves physically and/or emotionally from those who hurt others as a result of how hurt they themselves feel, but we have the option to do this with both grace and compassion.

..
We can stop labeling people as toxic.

Toxic behavior is not indicative of a toxic being.

Toxic behavior is only indicative of a person who needs love. This can result as a lack of self-love or lack of love from others or likely a combination of both.

At the same time, I wouldn't totally agree with that because it's also important not to invalidate that some people have had experiences with people doing extremely evil things, or persistently nasty, it's easy for people who haven't had much experience of stuff like this to judge, but that in itself is another thing for everyone to try consider about other people

[CirclelessBard]

Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

For the sake of clarification:
Is this the document Halaster referenced earlier that is becoming part of the staff contract? Or is this separate?
I ask because it does seem to apply to communication beyond forum rules, like requests. I assume it applies to other forms of communication as well, like Discord?