Feedback on playing and log-ins

[Obeliskocism]

Discord is evil and brings out the worst in people, not forums, no way. There's been some amazing discussions here, it's a lot more meaningful...

I think moving things away from Discord and more onto the website would be a good idea, to protect people from manipulative people putting peer pressure on them or insinuating IC threats once they find out what characters people play (newbies are not always knowing to be careful or how to) - Not everyone has much resilience against that kind of stuff and it's just setting people up to fail

I went on Discord a couple months ago to ask a question and one of the helpers scolded me for annoying them with an @notification.  I honestly haven't felt comfortable returning, or if I do and see that helper on I just leave rather than try to join a conversation.  It was an incredibly offputting and unwelcoming experience and I can only imagine how it would feel to a new player.

[Delirium]

I genuily wanted to know what Staff could say to her that would bring her back. Even if they apologized to her, it would still take a lot of time for her to trust them again, which was the main point of my last post.

My mistake was in thinking that they had already apologized to her and she accepted it, but after re-reading this thread, I now realize that Halaster apologized for deleting her post and she accepted that apology. That was my mistake

Thank you for that, and for those who paint me as over-emotional, 'slamming doors' for deciding to withdraw rather than escalate, I find that problematic on a general and not merely personal level, but I'm not going to derail there. Maybe examine your assumptions on your own time.

I tried the official channels, they failed me. Then they failed my husband, and at least two others I'm personally aware of. This is it for me. It is healthier to leave and continue to stay gone. I do genuinely hope that this thread helps fix the underlying toxicity, negativity, and lack of accountability that ultimately drove me and others away.

I have no desire to 'pick scabs' and no desire to cause a drama show for the popcorn crew. All I wanted was to bring issues to light so they might be openly addressed and worked on. As per the stated intention of the thread.

Change takes time and consistency. It's work. Hopefully this time it sticks. It's ironic to me that some seem to attribute a sort of maliciousness and unwillingness to confront issues when I'm doing the exact opposite, and without naming names or seeking public embarrassment or any other such vindictive behavior. Meanwhile I've heard from several different people that I'm a popular topic of disparaging and nasty remarks. I guess i hit a nerve.

I am not seeking some kind of drawn out public shitshow as that would be counter to the whole purpose. Is my trust broken? Yes. Will further discussion with staff and apologies bring me back? They'd be appreciated as far as clearing the air, If they were genuine conversations where fault was admitted on both sides and understandings reached.... but I am done with the game and re-opening all those wounds after so many times.. that's probably the definition of insanity or maybe just self-flaggellation... and quite frankly I don't trust that it will turn out better than any of the other times I tried. So no. It wont bring me back. Saying you're turning over a new leaf is great. I've heard it before. I hope it sticks this time. I won't be around to benefit from it but hopefully others will.

I spoke up to make things better for the rest of you. I keep getting drawn into the thread because yes, I do care. But I've said enough. More than enough. Repeating myself is pointless. Dar did accidently hit on one thing I've known its best to do, but not doing.

While I'm not slamming the door, I am closing it.
.

[wizturbo]

Certain threads would greatly benefit from a 24-hour delay before a post becomes visible, but is still editable.  This is one of those threads.

[Is Friday]

Echoing Delirium's comments above:

I'm closing the door on ArmageddonMUD because of repeated breaches of trust over years. It's not a single incident, although I'd raised this issue perhaps a dozen times over the past decade. Only now when it was dragged out into public light has it been addressed. 9 years to address the rape plot for my PC? Sounds absurd.

It was a pattern that I wasn't able to see until I actually took a step back from the situation - Triggered by another staff overstep where their NPC executed my PC. There's a lot of things that were left unsaid beyond the 1 issue I'd brought up. There are staff who continue to be untrustworthy and perpetuate a toxic/abusive environment. I've got enough issues in my life and I enjoy roleplaying in a healthy environment, these days. Everybody's got their axe to grind or their whipping boy - that won't be me, anymore.

I'd love for the game to get itself to a healthy state. I love a lot of staff/players and have developed great relationships with them over time. Wishing the game well. Too much baggage for me.

[Halaster]

We are going to be locking this thread in about 4 days, on Wednesday the 9th.

There have been a lot of personal attacks against each other, and much of what is being said now are the same complaints being repeated.  That doesn't mean we're not listening, and haven't done anything (see https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.msg1082970.html#msg1082970).  But at this point more of the same isn't getting us anywhere.

If you have anything left to say, now is the time.  If you're on the fence about posting, now is the time.  If you have friends who were considering, let them know they've got a few days and that's it (for this thread).


edit:  got my dates wrong.

[geminferno]

Before this thread closes, I want to add in my two cents.

It seems that everyone doesn't take into consideration that these are people behind the screens. People have the ability to change their views, opinions, and personalities. The staff here are trying their best now to not only address these complaints but to make up for them. The current administration team here are taking steps forward to ensure everyone feels heard and seen. I do want to give my condolences to those who have been permanently deterred by the game because of the past harm done unto you — I'm so sorry you guys won't be apart of this community again, I hope you do find a MUD or roleplaying community where you feel at home. <3

[Case]

I've been gone for quite a while. I don't lurk. I don't follow Armageddon anymore.

Being shown Delirium's post, and Is Friday's post, encouraged me to come back and give my two cents in good faith.

I have no axe to grind. It's been a long time. I left because staff broke my sense of trust in them, over something very silly. I had a character killed by a staff member directly, with limited context, in a way that appeared to be rushed and poorly thought out. It didn't match the OOC messaging from the staff member during the scene, which made it all the more pointed. I don't believe it met staff policy. It felt awful. I admit I'm not the easiest player to work with, and I didn't handle it from my end as well as I could have. I had tried to be polite. I raised a complaint, which was ultimately dismissed neutrally. I probably threatened to quit because I was frustrated. After a few days, I tried to move on. I had a special app waiting in the wings, already approved - I calmed myself down, and I thought I'd go that route. Another staff member had closed off that spec app with a note that I won't need it anymore.

This was one of those situations where I feel if cooler heads had prevailed, if everybody had a chat and had a resolution, some reasoning, it'd have been fine. Instead, it appeared to me that wagons were circled and a bad decision made in the moment was left to fester. No apology, no good explanation, nothing. Two players quit over this - a newbie, and me.

In the years I played, I saw some good staff decisions and communication, and some poor staff decisions and communication. What Armageddon has always lacked, in my opinion, is a culture of friendly, open dialogue. Staff try to present themselves at arm's length from the playerbase, but they're not. Everybody knows it. Some players are toxic, some staff are toxic. Emotions and tempers can run high. In my opinion, all of this passion should be focused on the game and collaborative storytelling. Credibility, trust and honesty - not paranoia and secrecy. It's staff's responsibility to set that bar, and that of the players to rise to it. When players and staff duke it out over bullshit and dream up in the worst in each other, everybody loses.

If things loosened up, lightened up, would I come back? Probably. Doubly so if there were attempts to right old wrongs. I'd welcome an apology, or a chance to come back on mutually respectful terms. I'd love to help bring life and fun back to Arm.

[mirk_o_loio]

We are going to be locking this thread in about 4 days, on Wednesday the 9th.

There have been a lot of personal attacks against each other, and much of what is being said now are the same complaints being repeated.  That doesn't mean we're not listening, and haven't done anything (see https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.msg1082970.html#msg1082970).  But at this point more of the same isn't getting us anywhere.

If you have anything left to say, now is the time.  If you're on the fence about posting, now is the time.  If you have friends who were considering, let them know they've got a few days and that's it (for this thread).


edit:  got my dates wrong.

Maybe there's a reason that complaints and grievances repeat themselves? Maybe that makes those that are repeated by several people those that should be investigated some?

[mirk_o_loio]

I don't think just putting up rules cuts it.
Start taking heads.

"Bro, complaints are mounting up. One more and you're out."

And then pull trough with it.

[Inks]

I don't think just putting up rules cuts it.
Start taking heads.

"Bro, complaints are mounting up. One more and you're out."

And then pull trough with it.

That doesn't work when there are obvious ooc cliques operating oocly at the moment to affect the game icly.


I'm considering leaving the game due to the level of it I have seen recently.

Your method would just give these cliques another ooc method.

[mirk_o_loio]

Kill the cliques, then.

[mirk_o_loio]

Or, at least, have those cliques provide credible, traceable proof of their grievances and issues.

[Abaya]

Yeaaaah this is it really. Some of the complaints seem to be from people who feel 'betrayed' because these are people who have openly spoke of fostering inappropriate relationships with players and staff, which reduces sympathy I would otherwise have by a lot, because a lot of people don't engage in all the stuff they do. Delirium boasted about STILL being consistently told things they shouldn't be being told if they believed in equal treatment and fairness for everyone, by "several different people". Without knowing anything of Delirium's characters or decades-long interpersonal relationships with Armageddon players and staff, I get red flags from reading that, I've seen these kind of situations, because they're human situations that inevitably crop up in anything that people are involved in, not unique to Armageddon.

I kind of feel like the game is moving in a better direction away from those older times and that this thread is a reminder that everyone should be on better behavior, because both staff AND players are on notice now that eyes are watching for abuse or misbehavior.

True, you can remove the potential for any problems entirely by completely removing all the interesting plots and secrecy, and everything that distinguishes Armageddon from the more old-style RPs where everything is pre-organized between players and there's not much chance of anything exciting happening. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should, that's really just destroying the game a lot of people enjoy, when there's nothing else that has stood true to these values and made such a unique experience that feels special to a lot of people.

I don't think just putting up rules cuts it.
Start taking heads.

"Bro, complaints are mounting up. One more and you're out."

And then pull trough with it.

That doesn't work when there are obvious ooc cliques operating oocly at the moment to affect the game icly.


I'm considering leaving the game due to the level of it I have seen recently.

Your method would just give these cliques another ooc method.

What's stopping you reporting these people (if it's not just trying to make the game look bad)? Maybe it would be helpful if Armageddon had something like this to deal with reports against players OR staff(!) cheating?
https://www.oig.dhs.gov/whistleblower-protection

What is whistleblower retaliation?

    The Whistleblower Protection Act (WPA) was established to ensure that employees who engage in protected disclosure are free from fear of reprisal for their disclosures. Whistleblower retaliation is the taking, failing to take, or threatening to take a personnel action because of an employee's whistleblowing.

And yeah, one of the beautiful things about Armageddon is you always have somewhere to play, when people are cheating, don't work with them, don't play on their side, play outside their city in a role where you'll probably end up legitimately killing their OOC friends for IC reasons? In some games you'd just have to suck it and move onto another game because of permanent leader characters, but Armageddon has something for everyone.

[Halaster]

Abaya is right, we don't necessarily know about something if we're not told.  If you know of some OOC clique who are 'cheating', put in a player complaint and we can attempt to look into it.  That kind of thing is difficult to prove and police, but we -always- look into those kinds of complaints.

[geminferno]

Abaya is right, we don't necessarily know about something if we're not told.  If you know of some OOC clique who are 'cheating', put in a player complaint and we can attempt to look into it.  That kind of thing is difficult to prove and police, but we -always- look into those kinds of complaints.

Yeah. There's a Player/Staff complaint option on the request tool for a reason. Should be utilized more often because it seems that it hasn't been.

[Brokkr]

I've been gone for quite a while. I don't lurk. I don't follow Armageddon anymore.

Being shown Delirium's post, and Is Friday's post, encouraged me to come back and give my two cents in good faith.

I have no axe to grind. It's been a long time. I left because staff broke my sense of trust in them, over something very silly. I had a character killed by a staff member directly, with limited context, in a way that appeared to be rushed and poorly thought out. It didn't match the OOC messaging from the staff member during the scene, which made it all the more pointed. I don't believe it met staff policy. It felt awful. I admit I'm not the easiest player to work with, and I didn't handle it from my end as well as I could have. I had tried to be polite. I raised a complaint, which was ultimately dismissed neutrally. I probably threatened to quit because I was frustrated. After a few days, I tried to move on. I had a special app waiting in the wings, already approved - I calmed myself down, and I thought I'd go that route. Another staff member had closed off that spec app with a note that I won't need it anymore.

This was one of those situations where I feel if cooler heads had prevailed, if everybody had a chat and had a resolution, some reasoning, it'd have been fine. Instead, it appeared to me that wagons were circled and a bad decision made in the moment was left to fester. No apology, no good explanation, nothing. Two players quit over this - a newbie, and me.

In the years I played, I saw some good staff decisions and communication, and some poor staff decisions and communication. What Armageddon has always lacked, in my opinion, is a culture of friendly, open dialogue. Staff try to present themselves at arm's length from the playerbase, but they're not. Everybody knows it. Some players are toxic, some staff are toxic. Emotions and tempers can run high. In my opinion, all of this passion should be focused on the game and collaborative storytelling. Credibility, trust and honesty - not paranoia and secrecy. It's staff's responsibility to set that bar, and that of the players to rise to it. When players and staff duke it out over bullshit and dream up in the worst in each other, everybody loses.

If things loosened up, lightened up, would I come back? Probably. Doubly so if there were attempts to right old wrongs. I'd welcome an apology, or a chance to come back on mutually respectful terms. I'd love to help bring life and fun back to Arm.

To preface this, while I was on Staff at this time, I was in no way involved.  I vaguely remember this happening, as I think I was online when all the Staff chatter about how to deal with the IC situation was happening.

If this were to happen today, I think the outcome would be different.  That said, this seems to be a case of differing expectations, insomuch as I can infer through the documented notes around it.

• There was some disagreement about whether your character was a maverick, in a Sponsored Role.  A disagreement wide enough that Staff on the one side did not think the character was abiding by Sponsored Role rules, and obviously on your side you thought you were.  I can't at this point say anyone was "right", just that there were differing viewpoints.
• You mentioned your IC actions were meant to keep another player from storing.  Staff didn't view this as ok, changing IC actions because of OOC information.  Your intentions seem to have been good here, but that didn't mean it wasn't breaking the rules.
• This all led to your character doing some IC actions.  Looking back I think you were interpreting that IC consequences should take into account certain OOC things (keeping other player from storing, certain stuff around the leader PC).  Staff did not think that those OOC factors should be taken into account.  Punishment was harsh, like they believed punishment would be harsh in a military organization.  I do not have visibility into what actually occurred, as admittedly there are different accounts on whether your character was complying between yourself and Staff.  Again, could be different interpretations of actions taken, I can't tell.
• The death seems to be within the rules.  We will animate for certain leader PCs if they are requesting some help with punishments.  A Producer was involved in the IC actions, and a second Producer involved in responding to you (as the first recused themselves from the answer).  Again, impossible to tell for sure from here, but based on what I can tell it was within the rules.
• I assume the Spec App was closed because there was an ultimatum given.  Saying that X has to happen or you are going to Y has not proven the best communication strategy in dealing with Staff.  I can understand the desire to put forth what is acceptable to you, but we have other factors (fairness, consistency, balancing other player concerns, etc) that typically play into resolutions such that they aren't always going to end up as something acceptable to the player.  Our decision making process will not be held hostage to making a player happy, although especially now vs when this happened, we do try for a positive outcome.

None of this is to say this wasn't a shitty experience for you.  Reading through I am sure it was, both in terms of IC game actions and the response you received from Staff.  This is the type of situation that we are hopeful will really benefit from the communication rules we are putting in place.  Sitting here now I can't say that you or the Staff involved were right or wrong.  Both sides seem to have taken actions in good faith, but they weighted the various points of the interaction differently.  There are going to be situations like this, where the two sides are not going to come to an agreement over what occurred or how the various elements should be weighted.  Our level of communication has to be such that we can, as players and Staff, cope with these kinds of situations without creating bad feelings or need of apologies.  Not every decision a player disagrees with is going to require an apology.

That said, the communication in this case was not the best.  It wasn't even good.  You do have my apologies for how things were communicated to you, as they certainly did not rise up to the level they need to be at, where we can still disagree about decisions but still walk away from them without ill will.

[GreenTransient]

I see a lot of rationalizing fucked up actions as "within the rules".  A lot of acknowledging that it's fucked up perhaps, but again, not against the rules.  I mean if the rules are allowing lot's of "fucked up" actions that end up creating an environment where you're having to reach out and find out just why it is people aren't playing.  Only to rationalize the actions that made people upset enough to want to leave, seems like a mechanism that only serves to defeat the initial intent of this thread.  Maybe some discourse on determining if adjusting some of the "rules" may also effect player interaction and retention would be more constructive.

[Brokkr]

You seem to be mistaking that within any rule set Staff have a range of actions they can take and players are going to have a range of reactions to those actions taken, from positive to negative, with the validity of the rule set itself.  The important thing is to focus on the communication so that we can all be trying to do the best we can, have the best foot forwards.  We need to be able to disagree cordially and not walk away with ill will on either side.

[GreenTransient]

I don't believe the players started the thread with the intent of forcing staff to "change their ways".  It seemed, at least initially, to be an attempt to address some serious issues, in an attempt to get the game where it seems everyone would like it to be.  If whatever lens one sees life through, staff and players alike,  allows you to look through the entirety of this thread and say "I definitely don't need to change at all" then that's absolutely great.  Or delusional.

[Abaya]

Opening a discussion here, for players to weigh in on, on why they aren't playing. Obviously, RL trumps everything and the entire team always tells people to focus on that before playing. The hurricane, the war, school time of year, continued transition for some from work at home to the office again, and so on. However, there will always be other issues at play that keep you all from logging in, and I would be rather remiss to not open this sort of discussion to hear what those are.

A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?

List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.

I don't believe the players started the thread with the intent of forcing staff to "change their ways".  It seemed, at least initially, to be an attempt to address some serious issues, in an attempt to get the game where it seems everyone would like it to be.  If whatever lens one sees life through, staff and players alike,  allows you to look through the entirety of this thread and say "I definitely don't need to change at all" then that's absolutely great.  Or delusional.

Players didn't start the thread though, so you obviously didn't read "the entirety of this thread" where people said a few times that changes are being made, and the rules have also been edited, before calling people delusional?

Killing off characters should probably be something handled in a request first though, it would reduce the chance of bad IC reasoning tainting the RP and making scenes that leave people feeling hard done by, probably. One example I can remember is when a templar was allowed to kill all the NPCs and several PCs in a guarded area without any resistance, despite there only being a couple of placeholder NPCs to represent VNPCs, and then waiting to kill defenceless PCs one-by-one when they logged on. But I do see attempts being made to try fix this kind of thing in better layout being made for some areas, and a specific nod to this kind of situation in the new rolecall where a time is arranged for players to have a chance to respond, so that's another example where it seems like mistakes are genuinely being learned from.

[GreenTransient]

That was exactly my point.  The thread wasn't intended to be players coming at staff.  It was staff asking players what's up.  Some seem compelled to defend many contentious points that have been brought up in the thread without furthering the conversation.  Effectively saying "Yes I see this situation that you found bad enough to justify leaving, and it all checks out, I'm sorry."  Your pain is within the design parameters.  At this point, why bother with the thread if you're going to be using it as a means to defend past behavior instead of using it as a tool to analyze how to move forward and improve. 

Like determining that a lot of this could all be fixed with communication.  Where the burden of responsibility should be on ensuring there is an environment where communication is an option.  Instead of assumptions and reactions in a vacuum.  Communication seems like a far more significant issues than how long karma seems to take to tick.  Quality, frequency, and the medium of communication could probably use some streamlining.  Perhaps talking about some options to allow players to put in a request for closure.  From a lot of these stories it seems as though a little bare bones talking could have done wonders.

[geminferno]

So, staff don't have the right to tell their side of the story? To every story there's three sides. The truth, person A's and person B's. They're not justifying it they're explaining what actually went down on their own side.

[GreenTransient]

Refer back to the same reasons they don't respond to the same type of posts outside of the community.  There is a forum to do so, I'm sure.  One that doesn't sideline the intent of this thread.

[geminferno]

Why would they do it outside of the community? Most of those "review" posts on Reddit or any other place is just to take a monumental dump on the game. Yes, there are some that are genuine reviews giving actual constructive criticism. They do it here because it matters. Nobody gives a shit about their story outside of the community because what the hell are they gonna do about it? If there's someone outside of the game community who swears they'll never return then what's the point?

[kahuna]

Why would they do it outside of the community? Most of those "review" posts on Reddit or any other place is just to take a monumental dump on the game. Yes, there are some that are genuine reviews giving actual constructive criticism. They do it here because it matters. Nobody gives a shit about their story outside of the community because what the hell are they gonna do about it? If there's someone outside of the game community who swears they'll never return then what's the point?

My gut feeling is that you probably should respond to those people for a variety of reasons but even a quick google search proves that gut feeling.

I'll direct you to people who are way smarter than me here: https://hbr.org/2018/02/study-replying-to-customer-reviews-results-in-better-ratings

You can read the study if you want, basically it's saying why you should respond to people outside of your own inner circle or "community" as you call it. It is crucial to respond to negative criticism promptly.

Just wanted to point this out before the thread was locked, negative reviews remain in perpetuity on the internet. Not responding to them is about the worst decision you could make.