Feedback on playing and log-ins

[Halaster]

Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

For the sake of clarification:
Is this the document Halaster referenced earlier that is becoming part of the staff contract? Or is this separate?
I ask because it does seem to apply to communication beyond forum rules, like requests. I assume it applies to other forms of communication as well, like Discord?

Yes this is what I was referencing.
And yes, it applies to all communication forms.

[Halaster]

Updated the wording to:

"When dealing with an issue with a player,"

[CirclelessBard]

Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

For the sake of clarification:
Is this the document Halaster referenced earlier that is becoming part of the staff contract? Or is this separate?
I ask because it does seem to apply to communication beyond forum rules, like requests. I assume it applies to other forms of communication as well, like Discord?

Yes this is what I was referencing.
And yes, it applies to all communication forms.

Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. (The change to the wording is also appreciated.)

Comments on guidelines for staff dealing with players:
#4: Very much welcomed. Given that all three examples of less-than-ideal staff communication I've used earlier in this thread all generally fall into the umbrella of assuming the worst about a player or group of players, I think having this outlined is a good idea.
#5: Given that me and one of my friends previously left the game over a one-word response of "Noted" to a complaint, this is much appreciated.
#6: I would really have liked there to be a requirement for having multiple staff work on certain requests, e.g. player and staff complaints where a single resolver's bias or mood can be an issue with a clean resolution.

Comments on guidelines for players dealing with staff:
#4: When reading something with a respectful, polite tone, if the words don't feel like they match the assumed tone, then that's going to be where the friction comes from.

No comment on any of the other points (they all look good).

Finally, for what it's worth, I've linked this to my former-player friends and 2/3 are going to get back into the game before Thanksgiving, probably on a weekend where they have some time to sit down and review things. One more doesn't have time to play until January, but would like to give the game another try then. In case you were wondering what kind of effect staff's efforts have on former players, there you go!

[Oleupata]

Finally, for what it's worth, I've linked this to my former-player friends and 2/3 are going to get back into the game before Thanksgiving, probably on a weekend where they have some time to sit down and review things. One more doesn't have time to play until January, but would like to give the game another try then. In case you were wondering what kind of effect staff's efforts have on former players, there you go!

Thanks for that. A playground can be totally awesome, but if nobody knows, nobody shows up.

[Reiloth]

Kudos to Staff for systemizing. This is the first step towards consistency, and a document that can be referenced by both players and Staff when something outside of baseline occurs in communication.

This reduces discretionary thinking (I enjoy working with X staff member and not Y Staff member). If Staff become more homogenous (though not completely without personality) it helps players know what to expect when they are going to interact with them. Though Staff I think will
Ultimately not receive the same from the player base, it is excellent to lay out guidelines of how to best approach Staff.

Now the hard part: sticking to it. But I have high hopes for both players and staff.

[Delirium]

I see no mention of problem staff. Is it possible that there is no such thing? Especially with where the game stands right now, can the game even afford to remove "problem" staff? Probably not, so even if a staff member causes problem it's likely they aren't going anywhere, the game can't afford to lose them?

Not to mention I seem to have become a "problem player" when I began standing up for myself and pushing back rather than rolling over and shrugging things off (because there was no way I was going to be listened to/compromised with -- that's how it felt at least). Yes, I should have taken a deep breath on some occasions and sat on my reply for a day or two, but that doesn't invalidate my experience.

This document is a good start but the wording in some places was really telling. I hope staff does some further self-reflection. If there are issues, maybe it's not the player's fault, but a circumstance in the game that is thorny, and it's just easier to blame it on the player being annoying than solve it? Maybe it's the way a staff member continually handles issues/players rather than it being the player?

I'm glad to see an attempt at addressing staff/player communication and I hope it continues to evolve to address full accountability on both sides.

edit to add: this also doesn't address passive-aggressiveness or blame-shifting. Is that too subjective for an official document? Maybe it is, but it's a factor. If people are skirting the line and being ostensibly polite but still dodging accountability, that's just as much an issue as being a straightforward jerk to somebody. What I'm looking for, at least, is accountability, as well as two-way street respect and tact.

In other words: trustworthiness. Without trustworthiness, setting rules about being polite is a start but it's only a band-aid.

[Malken]

I don't often side with Staff but some of you are sounding like you won't be happy with anything else than a magna carta-like document in magnitude. They gave you a lot of what you were asking for in this thread - it's now up to you to decide if you trust them to follow it or not.

[Delirium]

The root issue remains unaddressed. Putting a polite face on in public doesn't tackle how players are viewed, treated, and also spoken of in private. Yes, I think it's pretty clear that after having my trust broken multiple times by the same staff who kept asking me to rise above and trust only to turn around and do the same things, I'm done, but that doesn't mean I don't want better for those who aren't.

That said, message received. Clearly I am not the target audience.

[zealus]

The root issue remains unaddressed. Putting a polite face on in public doesn't tackle how players are viewed, treated, and also spoken of in private. Yes, I think it's pretty clear that after having my trust broken multiple times by the same staff who kept asking me to rise above and trust only to turn around and do the same things, I'm done, but that doesn't mean I don't want better for those who aren't.

That said, message received. Clearly I am not the target audience.

This staff contract is, in my reading, meant for both players and staff to be respectful to one another, regardless of past occurrances, and personal opinion on the player or staff side. I do not know what else exactly you'd want to, except for someone to personally say sorry to you.

[Miradus]

There's been no need for me to chime in and I wasn't going to chime in but .... fuck it .. here goes.

The sentiment is fine. The document says players will be polite and that staff will be polite.

Sounds great on paper.

Except the same problem will still exist:

Who decides what is polite? Staff.

Who is your arbitration if a dispute occurs? Staff.

Who decides when and how it's ultimately settled? Staff.

Who runs Bartertown? Staff.

The only option a player has is to vote with your feet ... and from looking at game statistics, a shitload of people seem to have done that over the years.

[Delirium]

I do not know what else exactly you'd want

I'm glad to see an attempt at addressing staff/player communication and I hope it continues to evolve to address full accountability on both sides.

I mean, sorry would be nice, but sorry without changed behavior is an empty word.

Hopefully this is the start of changed behavior.

I can recognize that I'm far too burnt to trust what may well be good intentions, so I'll see myself out.

[Malken]

I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.

[Bebop]

I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.

I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of.  Especially when the topic is intense.  This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what?  Years and years?  Is there a purpose to this?  Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.

[tiny rainbow]

Creating an OOC political system sounds like a great idea, right up until you realise you've created an OOC political system...

Discworld MUD has this for revolving disputes, or rather had... Because it was such a spectacular mess of drama it seemed like a lot of people lost trust in it, such positions tend to naturally attract the kind of people who want to use those positions for well... Politics... In the end it was just an abdication of responsibility from the people who should really have been fairly dealing with things (with the ability to properly check logs instead of relying on copypasted or edited stuff) but didn't want to, and opened the way to people who would abuse the position once elected and untouchable.
...Now they mostly fill up their council court cases file with a lottery raffle.

Another example was Alien Isolation, based on Space Station 13, it was actually a pretty fun idea to make it into an intense RP game but also horror at the same time. Seems familiar, right? I got voted into the player council, we could do public votes to remove admins. Which was good, because one was caught abusing admin tools for their player character, BUT... Not many people were volunteering to spend time creating things, running RP, or moderating, because no matter how much they contributed that they could arbitrarily get voted off and all their work seized if not popular enough, like it's a gameshow (so end up with people who are kinda useless at running things but smile a lot and say fake words that sound good while rarely acting on them... But are unlikely to get voted out) - in the end it was really just the people at the top making a system where everyone else dealt with the problems so they didn't have to... And so it diiiiiied a slow death. And then we have Armageddon, where the complaints mostly seem to be players about players and players about staff, but there seem to be very few complaints from people who left staff, and a LOT of content gets made and updates are way ahead of what most MUDs are doing right now. I think for volunteer organisations (where you can't pull a proper internal affairs department out of a hat) the best you do is have people at the top with a spine willing to inspect stuff and make decisions, speak up publicly, and people able and willing to inspect each other and speak up to each other when there's stuff that might ruin the game for everyone in the long run - everyone has the same interest in that, just need to work together on the same side

[Malken]

I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.

I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of.  Especially when the topic is intense.  This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what?  Years and years?  Is there a purpose to this?  Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.

Are you for real? My comment was super light-hearted. Also it's none of your fucking business if I'm playing or not.

[Dar]

I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.

I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of.  Especially when the topic is intense.  This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what?  Years and years?  Is there a purpose to this?  Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.

Are you for real? My comment was super light-hearted. Also it's none of your fucking business if I'm playing or not.

I suspect she quoted the wrong post, Malken.  Also, chillllll. Get the canook mojo on.

[dumbstruck]

I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.

I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of.  Especially when the topic is intense.  This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what?  Years and years?  Is there a purpose to this?  Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.

Are you for real? My comment was super light-hearted. Also it's none of your fucking business if I'm playing or not.

I suspect she quoted the wrong post, Malken.  Also, chillllll. Get the canook mojo on.

us non-playing folks

us who have already left to play the game

I no longer any longer.

there's really nothing that would get me back to play.

My last five or so attempts at playing the game went pretty much like this..
...
I don't have the time/need for this in my life anymore.

I mean...even if she meant to quote that one... it's kind of a fair point, given even the past six months of Malken's posts if you look at them? And his response seems in character with the point she was making about how negative he's being?

[Bebop]

I did mean to quote Malken. I just don't get constantly positing that you haven't played in a decade and will never ever play but continuing to tell people active in the community what they should and shouldn't accept from staff or vice versa.  I get if you're on the fence about playing but just claiming you don't and will not ever play and then telling everyone how they should react to situations is a bit odd.  Let people feel their feelings.

Also the irony of saying how nice you are then jumping down my throat over a simple question....Okay.

[Dar]

Hm.  I stand corrected.   


But I also consider myself Canadian.

[Barsook]

The decline of indies Balance has never been this game's fort. And sometimes when there have been problems, the solution has been to do a 180 in the opposite direction. Idies used to be strong and popular especially in tuluk. There were a couple reason for this including ranger classes, ability to train to high levels on agile animals, wealth,etc etc.

Not exactly true, there's still some indies in Tuluk. But I can see what you are getting at- partisans and the levies. They are mini-clans that aren't really coded clans where it seems that everyone is one of those clans.

ETA: That totally made no sense, didn't it?

[CirclelessBard]

While I'm tentatively happy with the guidelines, I don't blame anyone who needs more than that.

I look at the posted guidelines like a reset button for staff's end of the player-staff relationship. It's primarily up to staff to hold up their end. Non-staff players don't have an equal responsibility because they don't have equal power. That's not to say the players have no responsibility at all. But that, generally speaking, there is a perception that staff-player communications typically break down because of something a staff member says.

I think it's reasonable to want more than just the new guidelines as an assurance that they can trust staff again. Typically, when mending a relationship that fails due to lack of trust, two things need to happen: an admission of fault and a resolve to not repeat the same mistake. With these new guidelines, the resolve is there, but not the admission. Getting the perfect admission is hard because prior staff are no longer around to apologize. Getting a "good enough" admission is as simple as current staff members being honest about what, if anything, they feel they've personally done wrong in the past and what they personally plan to focus on in light of these new guidelines to become better communicators, and ultimately, better staff members. It might be helpful to have that kind of real talk.

[Dar]

There are a few admissions.  When Isfriday raised an incident, staff responded to it with admission.   The 40hp arrow was also responded to.  Even Delirium was apologized to.  I think Delirium issues could be explored more, but appears she prefers to slam doors upon leaving again and again instead of finding resolutions.

My point is that if a person would articulate enough to admit to, perhaps it'll happen.  Or at least explored.  I would love it if this happened.  But the person needs to be mentally prepared to move past the injury, instead of picking at the scab and enjoying the pain.

[CirclelessBard]

When Is Friday raised an incident, staff responded to it in two ways:
- Brokkr writing about the incident and how staff have taken steps to ensure that specific situation doesn't happen again.
- Shalooonsh writing that he has receipts on Is Friday.

Is Friday admitted that she used to be not great but is a changed person. The only thing I am suggesting is that staff in a similar circumstance do the same thing, irrespective of whether a specific complaint has been brought up here. That would be an apology, an admission of fault, which is all Delirium is asking for in her last post. Since she is asking for that I think it is safe to say she, and others who deserve those apologies, have the mental fortitude to handle it, and I don't think it's appropriate to suggest otherwise.

[Malken]

I did mean to quote Malken. I just don't get constantly positing that you haven't played in a decade and will never ever play but continuing to tell people active in the community what they should and shouldn't accept from staff or vice versa.  I get if you're on the fence about playing but just claiming you don't and will not ever play and then telling everyone how they should react to situations is a bit odd.  Let people feel their feelings.

Also the irony of saying how nice you are then jumping down my throat over a simple question....Okay.

I've played as recently as six months or so ago. It wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. A lot of it is probably my own fault. I solo rp'ed a lot.

Did I say that I would never come back to Armageddon? Yes, of course. This is an easy thing to say. I did it, you did it. Many others did it. Many of them come back under a new name and a new VPN. I've always stuck to my account and my GDB name, no matter how bad my "reputation" might be. I'm not the best Armageddon player but I'm also certainly not the worse we've had. I'm in the middle, I think.

Am I part of the community? Yes, wether you like it or not. I've been playing a lot longer than you have and believe it or not, I have many Armageddon friends that I talk to on a daily basis. Are they on the GDB or in the Discord channel? I don't think any of them are on the GDB, so I'm not really part of the GDB community. Some of them are on the Discord channel. Am I on the Discord channel? You'd be surprised. We're probably great buddies there. The GDB tends to bring the worse out of everyone. I'm a pretty nice and decent person outside of it.

I took offense at you saying that I'm trying to be snarky for the sake of it. Was it in my answer to Delirium? I think Delirium is an awesome player and from the little I know of her, also a nice person. I genuily wanted to know what Staff could say to her that would bring her back. Even if they apologized to her, it would still take a lot of time for her to trust them again, which was the main point of my last post.

My mistake was in thinking that they had already apologized to her and she accepted it, but after re-reading this thread, I now realize that Halaster apologized for deleting her post and she accepted that apology. That was my mistake.

Have I answered most of your questions?

[tiny rainbow]

Discord is evil and brings out the worst in people, not forums, no way. There's been some amazing discussions here, it's a lot more meaningful...

I think moving things away from Discord and more onto the website would be a good idea, to protect people from manipulative people putting peer pressure on them or insinuating IC threats once they find out what characters people play (newbies are not always knowing to be careful or how to) - Not everyone has much resilience against that kind of stuff and it's just setting people up to fail