Opening a discussion here, for players to weigh in on, on why they aren't playing. Obviously, RL trumps everything and the entire team always tells people to focus on that before playing. The hurricane, the war, school time of year, continued transition for some from work at home to the office again, and so on. However, there will always be other issues at play that keep you all from logging in, and I would be rather remiss to not open this sort of discussion to hear what those are.
A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?
List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.
Stagnation , I think this could be fixed by the right sponsored person given the permission to "start shit"
Karma cool down I think should be just a cool down on mages, let us have the races and sub guilds.
As a reference:
(https://i.imgur.com/3qOe8Eb.png)
There seems to be a seasonal lull period for the "back to school" time.
For me, I'm trying to figure out some answer to these questions:
What change has happened in the world?
What is different than the last time I played?
Is there a role in the world that I think is missing and I can fill it?
Is there a roleplaying trope I haven't tried to play out?
Is there a particular characterization or fantasy I wanted to explore?
What's something fun I can do with my spare time, within this world?
I feel as though the game can benefit from telling more stories of "What has happened last week?" and "How can I join in on existing storylines?". It is always tough making a new character in a new city, and you don't know:
a) Who the character leaders are
b) Which clans are hiring
c) What I can do when I join those specific clans
d) What timezones do those players typically play
...Perhaps that could help.
As for the original questions:
I don't know the answers. Shabago is a jerk.
At times, playing feels less like play and more like work. When a chunk of the time you can dedicate to the game is taken up with explaining why you didn't play one day... it becomes an expectation. It can be hard to carry the expectations of others, and still enjoy the game for your own reasons.
For every 24hrs played, I feel like I only get about half an hour of 'fun, interactive, social scenes' and the rest is spent idling, solo play, or trying to find people who want to play with you.
Even if you can somehow get 1-2 other people involved in a plotline, the scheduling that has to take place is obnoxious to say the least. You can get everyone together, but if you need staff, it takes minimum 2weeks to schedule. As I've said before, time for Players/PCs changes in seconds and minutes. For staff it changes is weeks and months. We HAVE to find a way to get them closer.
Time constraints. Can't play as much from work as I used to until the season calms down.
Some people say they "always get support" and "always find people in <sphere of play>" but when I'm there, I simply do not find the same opportunities. Possibly playtimes, possibly because there's some fundamental I don't understand, but it feels like I am not playing the same game as some other people.
I get the same feeling as Riev, and sometimes it also gets the feeling that some people are just bored so they look for arbitrary reasons to turn your game into a chore.. Some folks forget this is a game sometimes.. Also I think people concept of coin and worth needs fixed recently, demands of 5000 coins a year for whatever protection etc is insane for some character concepts without an insane amount of spam grebbing or crafting a ton of random junk to pawn.
I'm not playing right now because of external factors.
However, one of the things that made it hard for me to play and led to me ultimately taking a long break this last time was difficultly coordinating with the people I needed to coordinate with because of my restricted playtimes. Add to that the pressure of having time-sensitive big plot stuff going on? That was hands down my most frustrating experience I've ever had in this game.
Give me some way to reliably leave messages for people, and for them to leave messages for me, and I'd be back even if I could only play a couple hours every other Saturday or something.
I'm hoping it's a low. I just took a break again and came back myself. I tend to binge play and then disappear...not on purpose...it's just how my focus is.
This last winter/spring I thought there was a lot going on! Very cool stuff. Rooms/areas added, buildings built, player clans flourishing (and then even being destroyed by other pcs. sad, but still). The kind of stuff that I honestly I have not gotten involved a lot in and it was great. I'm a little surprised to see that the game is (a little) quiet (but still dangerous) (...).
My suggestion would be ...more ooc transparency. Not everyone feels the same, so there could be some nuance or OOC warnings, but my absence as a player of characters from the gameworld does not virtually remove my character...so access to more updated/information to include in their story when you log back in would be great.
Similar to what mansa suggested. I like the rumor board archives, I would love to see more of it, some IC/some OOC.
For me, it's definitely the stagnation, and the very low pop as of late has not helped.
It's hard to describe the stagnation, but, it certainly feels as if everyone from low commoners to leaders and to staff are simply trying to uphold a sense of peace and status quo over everything. Trying to start plots is difficult on your own as a leader, and you require Staff to throw stuff into the mix to make it feel supported and unique. Everyone can do a plot like 'build a road' but it will always be simply 'build a road' unless the clan staffer takes it into their own hands to make it more interesting. Like, let's say, hitting an underground tunnel with spooky thingies during the building of said road.
However this doesn't really happen very often at all. I've played a selection of leaders and I can count on one hand the amount of times plots were actively engaged in staff-side beyond the simple "well I guess I have to edit that room desc now huh".
This isn't meant to be a diss or anything, but I do think staff attitudes should change from the realistic and status quo to being the Dungeon Masters that make the D&D game less about travelling from one town to the the next where the only unique thing is how you had a decent ale, to one where travelling from own town to the next leads to an actual engaging adventure.
It seemed to be like this in the past, as anyone reading the history of game events could see. All the wild stories and wild characters and wild plots and world plots. No idea what happened but, it's far far rarer to see something of old magnitude happen these days.
This would be a good way to help fix the current stagnation, IMO. Player leaders can't really do too much about it. Armageddon relies heavily on staff plots and staff involvement. The game will simply be flat if everything in the world is solely influenced by Players who have no ability to animate the many forces and the very nature of Zalanthas.
It's the stagnation and difficulty to coordinate at times just like many have said, but mainly stagnation for me. It feels like it happens after I play a fairly long-longed PC's in this stint and the last stint before I took a year and half break. I think the attempts by the staff were good and they need to keep happening. We, as players, just need to accept that there will be railroading to some degree but at the same time, the staff should be ready to go another direction if the plot derails.
Too many clans that are outside cities, which makes the player base spread out, and therefore they only have a small group to play with. This eventually allows for stagnation in RP, and people are inclined to just log off as subjects run out, eventually.
I feel if more players are gathered in one spot, more roleplay can be promoted.
Also the lack of a "living" environment. I'd love for NPC's to interact more with PC's, if only for "atmosphere" or setting the tone.
I also would like to see more open storylines, which don't play behind closed doors. Things where your average Zalanthian Joe can be part of. And it doesn't always have to involve murder. :)
One of the things that I see tends to be as a community we have too much of a reliance on leader roles. If someone dies, stores or has RL issues that takes them from a leader position, that area of the game almost always suffers.
Certainly some better communication around these times would be nice. A post to clan boards or something to at least alert people to an absence and perhaps allow other characters to step up. Instead now it's always just this empty void and no one knows what is going on. This is particularly bad in my opinion for the Byn, where we often funnel newer players into and then the Byn collapses around a missing Sergeant and makes the whole MUD look dead.
Other things are fairly small but often just make me not want to be a part of the community. The whole Tek religion in Allanak and often being forced to participate is something that as someone who is extremely non-religious, is right up there with anything else that requires consent. I honestly can't care less about Tek worship of some kind, though I think things like Morning Devotions just flies in the face of "no religion" but it's the fact that way too often someone comes along and tries to make it a big thing and very much targets PCs to be a part of it. It's just annoying and gross, and getting to the point I don't want to play in Allanak, which certainly cuts down on places to play where there are actually other players around.
When playing an androgynous character, how often people chose to gender my character no matter what. Or continuously try and figure out what gender my character might be. It's never fun. And seems to be worse if my character has personality traits that could be considered more feminine.
Quote from: Iiyola on October 01, 2022, 12:52:18 PM
Too many clans that are outside cities, which makes the player base spread out, and therefore they only have a small group to play with. This eventually allows for stagnation in RP, and people are inclined to just log off as subjects run out, eventually.
I feel if more players are gathered in one spot, more roleplay can be promoted.
Agreed on the fact that the gameword is too large for the playerbase, but you have the same issue if there barely any choices. Which I think just goes back to the lack of the staff being true storytellers and/or not really having seasons where each season focuses on an arc of a few world changing plots. Like whatever happened to the Luir's/Kurac plot? That was replaced by the re-opening of the Tuluki Gates which is getting stale now (to me at least). Maybe it's time to more to something new or go back to the Luir's plot.
I often don't feel like the time I put into the game has any lasting effect on the game or other players. As well, I find the skill grind torturously monotonous. Paired with that monotony is the additional monotony of playing a relatively useless character for the fortieth or fiftieth time.
Completing the triad of monotony is the monotony of stagnation. The same plots with the same nobles houses and the same cities. The same big bads and the same OOC and IC culture. The same plots played out over and over.
I eventually get to a point of "what's the point". I've been playing this game for over ten years so I stick around for the community, but I find myself spending more time shooting shit in the OOC channels than I do playing the game, because it no longer feels like playing. It feels like working and grinding.
I don't like the dominance of heavy combat PCs right now. They're overpowered, they're already the most popular classes at chargen, they have a tendency to live forever, and the recent code changes encourage players to make even more of them - not less. They've also recently become even harder to kill.
Other classes become irrelevant as anything other than support cast for certain supplies, or when you need something crafted.
I don't have time to spend waiting hours in hopes someone else logs in to rp, now that I can't play at work and half-idle til something happens or I have time to make something happen. That was a luxury for sure. Also, my schedule changed, so by the time I'm home it's pretty late, and I'm tired. I want to log in and jump into RP with the scant amount of time I have, not idle around.
I'm finally at a point where honestly we really need some way to communicate with offline characters. I feel like I wasted time logging in when I need to contact a few people and they're not around and it's just me; whereas if I could "leave a message" I could do that and then focus on getting up to something instead of focusing on spending days trying to forward a single message. I'm very task oriented; I don't want to feel like I spent two hours wasting time, when I could feel like I accomplished that goal and also spent the rest of my time doing something. It's a game, not a chore. I'm trying to set up consistent playtimes to solve this but I'm not sure how effective it'll be.
I've been staunchly against it because of the idea of using PCs to communicate but that's not realistic at this point. I think it would open up a lot of playability and help plots move forward instead of stagnate until someone dies. We're playing a game without a pause button but everyone from staff, to the hardcore gamer, to the most casual of roleplayers, seems to have a lot going on right now.
tl;dr don't have much free time and when I do log in a lot of times I spend an hour or two alone. hard to move plots forward.
Put a time limit on storing PC's.
Too many make a sponsored and then store, leaving the game world empty.
Quote from: Doublepalli on October 01, 2022, 02:32:03 PM
Put a time limit on storing PC's.
Too many make a sponsored and then store, leaving the game world empty.
Not giving them to players who already have a history of taking a sponsored role, then never playing the PC would be a nice start.
Quote from: Nao on October 01, 2022, 02:10:54 PM
I don't like the dominance of heavy combat PCs right now. They're overpowered, they're already the most popular classes at chargen, they have a tendency to live forever, and the recent code changes encourage players to make even more of them - not less. They've also recently become even harder to kill.
Other classes become irrelevant as anything other than support cast for certain supplies, or when you need something crafted.
I'm inclined to agree with you here even though I personally play almost nothing but PCs geared for violent conflict. I think non-combat PCs should have access to the coded influence of combat ability through the use of NPC bodyguards and thugs. What's your opinion on that?
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 01, 2022, 02:38:14 PM
Quote from: Nao on October 01, 2022, 02:10:54 PM
I don't like the dominance of heavy combat PCs right now. They're overpowered, they're already the most popular classes at chargen, they have a tendency to live forever, and the recent code changes encourage players to make even more of them - not less. They've also recently become even harder to kill.
Other classes become irrelevant as anything other than support cast for certain supplies, or when you need something crafted.
I'm inclined to agree with you here even though I personally play almost nothing but PCs geared for violent conflict. I think non-combat PCs should have access to the coded influence of combat ability through the use of NPC bodyguards and thugs. What's your opinion on that?
I think that's a pretty unrelated proposal. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but NPCs will not change the situation much. Most PCs are not powerful enough to have access to them, NPCs are codedly pretty weak for the most part (although that could be changed, I suppose), and at least in their clan compounds, these powerful PCs are already well-protected.
Quote
I personally play almost nothing but PCs geared for violent conflict.
Does that translate to 'almost nothing but heavy combat'?
Light combat classes 'should' be geared for violent conflict, too, though maybe with a bit more tricks and less so in a straight fight. But the difference to even light combat is absurdly high. They're toothless in comparison even with a large difference in time played.
Sometimes it does feel like the game can get stagnant. I find the most enjoyable times of the game are with staff driven plots that open up the world for collaboration and give the feeling that a player is part of something bigger than themselves. The Copper Wars, occupation of Luir's, Allanak's assault on Tuluk, and so on are good examples of this. While events like a new moon's ascension, a comet, and a flaming roc in the sky are excellent world flavoring events, they can be quickly forgotten after a week IRL.
It would be neat to see something like an announcement of a year long plotline separated into four quarters. It could be something like:
- A skimmer arrives on the shores of the Silt Sea carrying people who speak an unknown language from a far away land
- Barbarian hordes from the unknown lands begin to show themselves all throughout Vrun Driath and begin raiding/burning farming villages
- Red Storm is overtaken and by the barbarians as they take a foothold in the Known
- A final assault on Red Storm by Allanak's forces (possibly with the assistance of Kurac and other GMH's?) to beat back the invaders
This would give people an idea of what is going in the game world and how they could find more interaction within it. It hopefully would also drive people to log in more often so they can be part of these stories/themes. The NPC barbarians could simply never respawn in the final 90 days, giving a feeling of accomplishment for those who engage in the final struggle to free Red Storm. Once the plot is finished, it also opens the door for rebuilding Red Storm, a Tuluki power imbalance, and so on.
Basically what I'm saying is that sometimes the game feels a bit directionless. Some people like that. I'd prefer to have it guided for me as a player.
Quote from: Ammut on October 01, 2022, 03:07:42 PM
Basically what I'm saying is that sometimes the game feels a bit directionless. Some people like that. I'd prefer to have it guided for me as a player.
The pace of the game is super off and it's creating a playability as the real world we live in speeds up and the player base ages.
In my twenties I'd sit around playing ALL day, I'd even play at work. Thirty something me isn't down for that.
While plots can happen at the speed of light, the code is still relentlessly slow. I craft something. I just sit there for RL minutes waiting to either fail or succeed. What other gaming experience has that much dead air? If I want to max out a character and play at a reasonable, healthy pace (a couple hours each day, and focus on RP) it could take me a real life year or more. Meanwhile, I can log on to almost any other video game and beat the entire thing and replay it in one real life month.
It feels tedious. Cap that with permadeath, the idea of doing all of that work and getting killed randomly is just maddening and there isn't a feeling of reward. It's been scientifically proven that what keeps people playing is a sense of reward.
There's a lot of tedium in Armageddon both codedly and roleplay wise. If I'm playing a mundane, I log on and have to go out and incur risk just to level. I end up doing the same tasks again and again. If I'm a magicker, I cast the same spell again and again in a blind hope that maybe after one real life month something might have branched or level? Magickers start off incredibly, laughably weak. It isn't very fun to roleplay, combined with isolation and exclusion from other roleplay scenarios. As a magicker I'd tear into the game and start shaking things up but I ... can't... because I'm not strong enough for months and there's every likelihood that in that time a snake will bite me and my cure won't work and there went five months of work.
Then when it comes to leadership you end up stuck in meetings walk a fine line of being able to interact with other PCs and not make them feel overwhelmed by the power imbalance.
The tedium needs to be fixed and I think we need to accept that we're in a faster world with an older player base who can't play every waking moment. We've got kids, spouses, pets and jobs.
I also think the current character availability needs a major overhaul. I like that we have a lot more options but I think so many of the combinations are restrictive and just really don't work. Certain skills are heavily gatekept. I could make a whole thread about that alone. But... I don't have time!
On top of that, due to coded changes common watering holes are either completely inaccessible to a portion of the base and/or completely unsafe. It's made it so that people don't really tavern sit in many places. And the social restrictions break up playability.
I guess overall, I'd say there are a lot of playability issues that just don't encourage players crossing paths and interacting in a way that 1) feels organic, 2) doesn't require staff intervention 3) happens on a regular basis.
There's also the very simple fact that many of us are CONSTANTLY either in front of a phone, TV or computer. I don't want to live myself constantly plugged in so I can only handle a few hours of the game a night.
Another thing I've noticed is that when some players do create drama and plots they're quickly targeted and snuffed out. Maybe it's because people are over eager to accomplish something but again not to over use playability as my keyword here but what incentivizes players to not just build things but actually shake things up? What incentivizes players to log on? Right now it's just the hope of one day maybe having a powerful careful or something happening but that could take real life weeks or months.
I'm thirty six now, I've got to level up in real life. I can't spend hours and hours sitting around typing craft bone or kill tregil.
IDK that's just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
Instead of making things more playable we're doing things like making it so cures don't work and we can't ride a mount with a two handed weapon. It's easier to die and just as hard to level.
I am back after several months break. Parts of the place I liked and continue to like. However, something continued to happen: plots started and those players either melted away or character died. So many things started and never ended.
That followed some pretty awful things that happened to a previous character in game and instead of having certain general questions answered I was basically given some rather nasty replies. Then I played a character and really not much but boredom happened.
Something about the constant permadeath or players who dont follow up for whatever reason were slowly bleeding away reasons to log in. So I stopped logging in. I just started once again to see if there is anything here again.
There's just not enough entertainment in the game for the time required to be sufficiently "in it" to get involved in anything. Not enough happens. Not enough payback for the time I put in; and not enough integral game story to inspire plots that feel like they happen for real reasons, as opposed to happening because I (or someone else) was bored. If I want to start a plot myself, I have to drag people kicking and screaming into it because everything moves at a snail's pace. If I want to get involved in someone else's plot, weeks and months go by without any sign of those. When one finally does crop up, 75% of the time, the character that served as its genesis gets PKed before it can get going properly and then it just peters out. Too much time spent bored with no way into anything and no events transpiring that give me a reason to start something of my own. Simply put, it's dull. Nothing that happens would have warranted a passing note in any mediocre novel or film.
It has become a very boring game where nothing of any consequence happens for long stretches of time, so I gave up on it.
The time cost of taking a freshly generated character into a fully "playable" character is higher than it should be. A well established character allows players to log in and then just play a little bit. A fresh character has to worry about so many bad things that could happen to them.
The lack of rentable save rooms in Luir's Outpost has a huge negative effect on the game. I fondly remember the times when the Shanty Town existed. The way those apartments were setup was such a boon for player interaction. Smaller locked save rooms adjacent to npc guarded larger save rooms was such an interesting dynamic. Something similar exists in the RSV Silo with that infinite fire room by the entrance.
I've heard someone say nobody's logging in because they're waiting on requests.
Waiting is often a bane of enjoyment in this game. A big part of why I almost exclusively play wilderness characters is because even if it becomes a single player game most of the time I can always find something to do and you also have lots of interesting random encounters in the wilderness
Examples of bad waiting:
* Waiting for non-life-threatening poison to end
* Waiting for the PC you need to way to be wayable
* * join a clan
* * buy something
* * etc.
* Waiting for mount stamina regen in the wilderness
* Waiting for stamina regen in the wilderness
Certainly sometimes something very interesting can happen during some of these, but that one interesting thing happening does not justify all of the other very boring waiting.
The 'grind' and to a lesser degree, the waiting around, were also one of the main themes the last time we had one of these threads.
They're also one of the major gripes I have with the new poison system and the way cures work now. Both the poison and the brew skills now require So Much More of a grind, and waiting around.
All that time sitting around crafting, or waiting for some coded effect to disappear is time where I'm probably not interacting except for MAYBE waying one person at a time and cut off from the rest of the playerbase instead of available for roleplaying. My PC is online, but not really there. It's also not enjoyable. This happens every time you increase the effort involved in generating anything - even through such subtle things as increasing prices to improve the economy. Yes, someone will not have a pile of peraine or 50k in their bank account anymore, but the rest of us who never made excessive amounts of money are now collecting and selling scrab legs for a RL week in order to buy some climbing gear from Kurac. When we could be hanging with other players and having fun with them instead.
Quote from: Iiyola on October 01, 2022, 12:52:18 PM
Too many clans that are outside cities, which makes the player base spread out, and therefore they only have a small group to play with. This eventually allows for stagnation in RP, and people are inclined to just log off as subjects run out, eventually.
.... snip ...
I also would like to see more open storylines, which don't play behind closed doors. Things where your average Zalanthian Joe can be part of. And it doesn't always have to involve murder. :)
Sometimes when playing roles where your PC is very, very busy, solo RP is a luxury and so a very enjoyable thing. However when solo RP is all you've got day after day it sucks and I find it hard to even bother logging in
There have been a lot of great staff led plots in the last year which kept things interesting but they have seemed to dwindle (or maybe I just haven't seen them, dunno). Perhaps staff are falling into the same malaise as the player base?
The current implementation of Chargen Karma Points incentivizes players to play in specific risk averse ways
* You will not be able to create a character with a good mundane subguild for 30 days
* If you create a mundane character with subguild none you will need to exist without a subguild until you regenerate to one CKP
* After spending to 0 you will not be able to create a 2CKP character for 75 days which is about two and a half months.
* After spending to 0 you will not be able to create a 3CKP character for 120 days which is about four months
Because of how disproportionately players are penalized OOCly for dying on a character they spend CKP on they will make excessively risk averse decisions to avoid that harsh OOC penalty. There are various "tropes" about joining a sparring clan for two ingame years and then suddenly manifesting, but this is because after two ingame years the player will have regenerated their 2CKP.
Suggested fix: Allow players to generate above their maximum amount of CKP up to a cap of 2k+1 where k represents the maximum amount of CKP that player is allowed to spend at one time. Additonally, make it so that CKP points regenerate every 30 days without resetting the regeneration timer on CKP expenditure.
It's all just so thoroughly slow.
I can and have, on every single one of my characters in the past year, spent hours in the local watering hole and met nobody. I've joined clans with them and seen the actual glacial pace with which things developed if anything was ongoing in the first place - often a no. And in those more interesting times, things are still really really slow if you're playing the actual MUD, rather than the request tool game. Plots so plain as 'build something mundane' or 'kill one particular megafauna' take literal weeks of rearing up for a three-hour payoff in the end.
Between that? Monotony. And not just monotony, but the monotony of a game where a stray arrow, a couple NPCs that bunched up, a rando templar, or a character with a grudge can end everything. As they do, often. Waiting for weeks for literally anything to happen is fine in a play-by-post forum thing or somesuch. In a game where new ways for you to die are devised constantly and where 'lmao harsh world' is a refrain, it just kills engagement. Eventually, the juice just really isn't worth the squeeze for some, and they wander off to other MUDs, play some D&D, or do anything else where a session of fun does not in fact require fifty hours of drudgery.
Personally, I don't really have a lot of issues staff-side currently, and haven't had any since the start of my play about a year ago. I think partially, I've got the symptoms of being a wide-eyed ingenue who's only trying to see the best in the game and its players/staff.
My biggest hang-up is trying to find a way to include as many players as I can into whatever subplot or plot I can get going, to give certain areas of the game some actual life again, but not being able to. So, while I spend hours, days and weeks of my time trying to make something fun, it gets stomped on because either no one wants to participate, it's 'too risky,' or the only people who are willing to come along are players with such a wildly different timezone to mine that I have no choice but to actively harm my sleeping schedule just to get a bit of interaction or plot progression. It is incredibly demoralizing, and exhausting.
I suppose it goes in-hand with other complaints, in a sense. They want less of a grind, and to feel as if they're not wasting their time playing a character just for it to die in some horrible unfair way. Fixing those issues would probably bring some people back, and make my (singular) issue less glaring.
[EDITED TO ADD:]
I think there should be a consistent world plot to give attention to and draw interest for the time being. We've had snippets here and there recently, concerning something pretty damn cool, and yet.. it's been what, two or three months since anything has been done with it to the global extent? It probably sounds like a huge ask, but reviving the current low population is probably a big enough task to warrant it. This goes, just as well, with the stagnation issue. It doesn't feel like anything is going on, like the plots have just sort of.. plateaued.
Fortunately, we have upcoming events that should hopefully see some player return for, but keeping that drive to play is what's really important I think.
I probably would rebound off an Armageddon 2.0 project and go look for the next MUD* that has a deep feeling of a living game world and cause and effect and consequences, because I think that is really what Armageddon's strength is, or in the awful event it happened hope that the game is split and there is an Armageddon Classic for people who prefer it:
I think it's a case of be careful what you wish for, because going down the path of making everything easy and fast to attain means.. Well... There's lots of games like that already, commercial online games do this because they are not interested in creating a meaningful experience as long as they are getting paid, and if people haven't experienced something better, they are trapped by the marketing and the treadmill of skinner-box rewards to never even get to experience something like Armageddon MUD.
The grind is completely optional/can be ignored/easier for city roles, and for outdoors there's a very low barrier to entry and people want to be "the best" fast instead of being "enough", but if everyone can be the best fast with no risk then no one has anything to look forward to anymore, and a lot of the same people would find themselves complaining that they are getting bored :) I really didn't like when the Tan Muarki returned because it seemed like they got skill boosts that didn't really fit their theme so it made it feel like these special characters are running over all the people that went through adventures and danger to get things the more exciting way - I think that everything is dangerous makes it better, you have to think about everything instead of it just being mindlessly grinding NPCs
(https://i.imgur.com/GL8uZ5t.png)
* I say MUD because I've tried other RP formats and I think it really is the best because it reduces a lot of the boring parts, that traditional RP ends up filling RP logs with at least half OOC or numbers stuff (and I think that lower barrier to entry where you don't need to know a bunch of boring rules to figure out how your character is going to do something, and instead Armageddon background reading is learning about the stories of the world instead, is why this game has a better mix of people playing than most)
It's really not hard to be discouraged when it feels like any plot other players can think of is fucking with someone else. It makes me want to solo-play. I feel like almost all of these plots are just frustrating and never reach a satisfying conclusion.
I have nothing against Armageddon, but there are billion other ways for me to entertain myself in 2022. The day that I would stare at my monitor for hours in the hope that /something, anything/ exciting would happen is long gone.
Armageddon was a huge part of my life but there's really nothing that would get me back to play. I like reading the GDB for nostalgia and to make sure that's some of my old Armageddon friends are still alive.
/maybe/ if Armageddon became a cyberpunk rp game I'd be tempted to come back! ;D
I came back after a 12+ year hiatus to a game that has been consistently worked on enough, that it's now possible for me to explore once more without knowing every nook and cranny the world has to offer. The exact reason I departed was that I knew too much, there was no mystery left. It didn't help that I was staff at the time and there is a reddit forum dedicated to hating me for perceived notions (some correct, most false), but that was less relevant.
Text based gaming is suffering globally. Reading is hard. Fewer young players will join as the months tick by. Long gone are days when more than a few understand basic unix commands or even how DOS works. This form of gaming is going the way of the dinosaur, slowly but surely. That doesn't mean an occasional intrepid gamer won't discover the majesty of the world of Zalanthas, but that faucet has become more of an occasional drip than a trickle.
I still recall my first PC I made and how I died within a few short hours and how the brutality of it all hooked me. This was back in the day when it took a week or more to get approved. But I, and many of you vets grew up on games that expected us to appreciate hard mode. The youth nowadays aren't in that mindset and are unlikely to be, again there will be the ultra rare exception.
The low player numbers isn't so alarming when you consider that even in the heyday, it wasn't THAT much higher on a regular basis. The ennui and the malaise are what kills the morale and Armageddon is not the only text based game suffering in this manner. There have been experiments and decisions made in the past 10 years that while I wouldn't agree with them, I understand why the decisions were made. Closing Tuluk was something that happened while I was gone, but I am not convinced that helped much. Magick being relegated to subclasses seems to me to be a very watered down version of what they used to be, especially considering that it was a lot harder to play a magicker and survive. (now that everyone can be a fighter/magic user it can't be nearly as tough) That powerful magickers weren't nearly as unstoppable as they were thought to be. Sure, when a magicker is ready for you... it's a serious problem that is probably not the best idea to tackle. But if you can get the jump on any class, it's curtains. These would be the most glaring moves that made me personally wonder, but nothing is really out of reach if you set your mind to it. You can still apply for higher karma classes and with a well thought out concept and a presentation to staff, it's not nearly as difficult than many would imagine.
Tavern sitting is a focal point for RP. Long ago, in Allanak, you could guarantee you'd get RP if you sat in the Traders Inn long enough. Once the Gaj was added, it was split between higher class and low class. Which isn't a bad thing, and you could still hike to one or the other to see if someone was around, or maybe run into someone on the way. A third establishment was added and still it didn't kill the dynamic that much. It was a short journey to look around for interaction, and Allanak had a dynamic. That route for city rp, and the rinth rp which was at a much smaller scale, but still the same basic idea with the Folly being the focal point. The base was further divided by north and south, Tuluk had players and Allanak had it's players. Even with occasional player counts as low as we have now, it still worked somehow. Even further divided, there were the players in Luirs, the desert elves and even Red Storm had its few.
(my unpopular opinion) Want leadership roles to grind to a halt? Ask the player to send in regular reports. It's sad, I know, but its true. Giving players work to do is a surefire way to get them procrastinating, avoiding, deflecting and making every excuse under the sun why they got nothin'. It is easy to fill out a report, yep, but that doesn't make it any less like work. Keeping staff in the loop on plans is one thing, expecting players to fill out forms to meet staff expectations is quite another when the point in a game is to have fun. If staff is unable to figure out what's going on before a report is filed, that's more alarming. Some players are good at it, they will write the staff novels and diaries of what they've been up to, their hopes and dreams and reminders of past accomplishments, but its rare. It is my opinion that much less stress should be placed on players to update staff and players should focus mainly on playing.
Leaders need to lead. They need to keep their underlings busy doing (literally anything) something that is hopefully constructive and un-boring. I'm unsure how else to state this, because leading is not for everyone and its a skill that isn't so much learned as much as it is natural to some, and not to others. Move your pieces, have your underlings interact with group B and try to accomplish goal A. If all clan leaders were doing this, there would be more dynamic rp taking place. One templar can keep half of a city-state busy if that templar has any chutzpah whatsoever. I'm placing a lot of the blame of malaise on our PC leaders. If you are uninspired to make a dent in this world, or feel it is impossible, snap out of it. Create your legend. You do not need staff to make yourself a legend and that's what this game is lacking now. So again, snap out of it.
I've already rambled too long and never really got to the heart of why numbers are low, despite the hurricane and the general downturn of text gaming, but I want to close with this; all it takes is one intruiging story to boost morale across the board.
-Bhagharva
pof - White Rantarri, Ihsahn Kasix and Marius Tor
I've already decided to go ahead and tap out on Arm so might as well be honest. I've had some amazing times in Armageddon. The only Mud I've experienced a legitimate sense of accomplishment after having done something insane/idiotic/particularly memorable. It's an amazing environment, and there are some absolutely phenomenal players moving in and out of activity.
Staff, would be my primary complaint. Early on in my Arm experience during an impromptu and mandatory chit-chat with staff I was informed that I was not a customer and that there was no customer service. This, seems to have been the pervasive mentality I have experienced. One where I felt very much that I was allowed to play at someone else's enjoyment. I've been harassed, lied to, invalidated regularly by staff to the point I just avoid interacting as much as possible where they may be concerned. Which eventually led to a play experience where obtaining any real sense of accomplishment we negligible. If I could ask one thing of staff that would be to approach more situations where interactions outside of the staff clique is necessary with Hanlon's Razor in mind. Most of my interactions began in a way that automatically made me defensive, but more importantly left me confused as to what it was that was actually expected of me. I understood I was in trouble, but not really why or how to improve, or alternate approaches which is a waste of everyone's time and does nothing but make us hate each other. Lot's of clubs, no cookies guys. Maybe consider improving an area to encourage people to be there instead of making everywhere else MORE shitty like one out of three times?
Role call selection has resulted so routinely in someone that doesn't do their role responsibilities/doesn't show up/disappears indefinitely that I tried it out myself and either everyone get's as frustrated with staff as I did or the majority of role applicants just don't do the role responsibilities/don't show up/disappear indefinitely. I literally left the experience feeling like staff selected me to play the role, just so they could treat me so poorly I'd never apply for another role call again. And, I even expressed this to a staffer.
FOIC: Yo. I cannot tell you how hilarious it is to get yelled at for sharing any kind of information while actively in a room with staffers you used to watch message your x all kinds of tips. Shit, they used to give ME tips till I pissed them off. You fella's know who you are. FOIC only works if you have a community that believes in and encourages if not rewards sharing. That....is not this community. This is a horde everything so you can get one up on anyone for any reason territory not yes let me show you things fantasyland. So you essentially just further the sensation that this is a game that I'm allowed to play just so others can have fun at my expense.
Poor decision making. Oh look at our brand new awesome poison yaaay. Hey did you guys do anything to make getting not shitty cures easier? No? So you massively effected the lethality of one of the most traversed routes in the game but didn't make it any more reliable or affordable to not die? Oh, oh you're actually going to randomize the cure locations and likely take even more steps to make this even shittier. Well. Fuck me eh? You opened Tuluk...did that fix the player base? Players too spread out and you feel like everywhere is dead? Let's open up a fuck ton of delf tribes, that outta put more people in the cities. Just a few examples. Everything in arm is already designed to be divisive, do we gotta keep making it worse still? Are TOO many people working together somewhere? Yes, I know it's Armageddon and the whole point is that, it's a shitty experience. Murder, Corruption, Betrayal. But there's a balance, and for about two years I've felt the juice hasn't been worth the squeeze. I feel like a lot more effort has been put into seeming like staff is communicating with the player base. But it's repeatedly seemed like, opinions expressed by the players by and large are ignored if not invalidated. This is just how I felt about those situations, not that it was necessarily your intent.
I don't feel that staffers are actually held accountable when they're shitty, and that makes it a difficult place to feel safe to spend time. Quite a few complaints about staff floating around out there if you know where to look, I've considered adding some of my own logs and screenshots. At the end of the day I feel unwelcome, and you're right I'm not a customer you have no obligation to provide an enjoyable experience I want to return to, I just really wish you did. But this is just how my involvement and interactions of have left me feeling. Hope it improves for everyone.
I agree on the poison, it makes the already clunky cure system harder and the poison didn't need to be harder and more of a pain, not everyone has all day to devote to such. It's already hard enough with the new classes to pull off any kind of assassination and such without magick.
Quote from: Shabago on October 01, 2022, 11:43:02 AM
Opening a discussion here, for players to weigh in on, on why they aren't playing. Obviously, RL trumps everything and the entire team always tells people to focus on that before playing. The hurricane, the war, school time of year, continued transition for some from work at home to the office again, and so on. However, there will always be other issues at play that keep you all from logging in, and I would be rather remiss to not open this sort of discussion to hear what those are.
A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?
List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.
I think Staff has gone out of their way to not be jerks in recent years, so I don't really think that's at issue here. As with most complex issues it's...Well...Complicated!
There's factors outside of anyone's control:
-Aging Playerbase with more responsibilities IRL
-Said Playerbase having less time to commit regularly/scheduled, particularly those with young children.
-The game working 'the best' when people can sink a lot of time into it, and in regular chunks (1-3 hours at the same time of day).
-Change being possible in the game, but only with a lot of time sunk into it, etc.
I think ArmageddonMUD certainly has a zeitgeist that it sticks to pretty consistently, and that's over at least the last 20 years or since it became the prima RPI permadeath MUD:
-Permadeath
-No take backs -- if you die, you die (except if there's a game breaking bug involved). If you lag and die, you die. If you store, you are stored.
-RP is required and intensive. There is no official OOC communication except to coordinate playtimes or ask for clarification, or ask consent for certain RP/scenes.
-It is not a MUSH, there is a code base and code makes up 100% of the game world. You cannot pause combat to write emotes, for instance. You can't stop an assassin from killing you by OOCing that you need a few minutes to write up a paragraph response to their backstab. IT's all in the game, the code, and that's part of what makes it an RPI MUD.
-Documentation must be adhered to. Your PC is rarely the special snowflake, often just the sum of its parts and history in the game world. An elf can't ride a mount, and a dwarf can't grow hair, and magic is supposed to be feared/reviled.
There's other parts that make ArmageddonMUD what it is, but the above are more 'fact' than opinion. As for opinions, i'll say below what I believe drives people to other hobbies or entertainment these days, and some opinions on things to change.
-Text based games are increasingly less popular as time marches forward. The rare execptional person (probably the person ArmageddonMUD or any RPI MU* would die to have) will be looking for an intense, permadeath, text-based RPI. Most are waiting for the next Halo or Battlefield game to drop on console.
-ArmageddonMUD is not for the faint of heart, or those without a modicum of time to regularly commit to it. Those who are now fathers and mothers, have intense careers that they started along, own businesses, or otherwise have less free time than when they were teenagers, can't engage with the game and have fun with it. The time commitment required from ArmageddonMUD to be fun is vastly different from other video games. You have to put in 1-3 hours, around the same time of day, 2-3 days a week minimum in my opinion to get any sort of enjoyment out of the game, unless you are playing a Solo PC. If you play less than that, most of your time logged in will be explaining why you aren't around.
-Leadership roles are exhausting. I think Staff and other Players expect too much from Leadership PCs. I would challenge Staff to shut down Nobles and Templars as available roles and have to animate those roles regularly to fill in for Leadership PCs to get a feel for how difficult it is to juggle. There's a reason that there is high turnover in roles like Byn Sergeant, Northern/Southern Templar, and particularly GMH Family. There needs to be more bang for the buck, more reward for sticking with those roles.
-More special/secret role calls. More 'roles' in general rather than playing another average joe and hoping for the best. With a shrinking cast of Players/PCs to choose from, I think those roles should be made more meaningful.
-More of a linear plot, or series of linear plots. Time to put away the sandbox.
-Less Karma Gating behind RL time, I think that is hurting player numbers. If anything just take away the option to make the same roles back to back. Or if someone is playing too many X's in a row, tell them to try something else, or take away that option from their account temporarily.
-Shut down desert elf tribes. No point in spreading out the game world further. The tribes are fun flavor, but rarely part of the main entree.
---
Ultimately, ArmageddonMUD isn't a game you can win. There are no experience points, and no achievements to unlock. So, you can't beat the game and say 'that was a great game' and put it down. It's as much a shared hallucination, a shared narrative experience, as it is a video game. So it stands apart in comparison to other video games for sure.
I think Staff could spend some time on player outreach. Send some emails to previous players and ask for feedback as to why they aren't playing anymore. Ask if they could come back to play, what role would they want to play?
Otherwise, I don't know that there's anything that can be fixed or done. I think Staff is doing admirably well in their transparency and community outreach compared to 10 years ago. But time marches forward, people are getting older, have less time to commit, and have other things to do. There's something to be said for hanging up the hat and going 'That was a great time' and moving on.
EDIT: I'm currently on indefinite hiatus, both for personal reasons and RL circumstances. If I had to boil it down, I don't have the time to commit to a hobby/game like ArmageddonMUD unless there is more juice to the squeeze. I'm taking a good long break for now!
I think we all need to dig down deep and flesh out stories and plots. I say we cause myself is playing half ass lately and I notice it. But to draw in longer play times and more log in, think we all need to try and build the game world more. More love triangles more exploring and reasoned backstabs! Outreach missions and so on that the feel of need to log on and get ready for such fun things is a drive to play.
As for staff I think they all pretty much got the game running nice and smooth. We have new things in game and crafts such as poisons and cures. They could maybe slack down on all the new addons and crafts and maybe push more world plot events a bit more. Not that I know what staff do, Just maybe more time at plots and small events even if for each clan at times to keep the ball rolling.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 02, 2022, 01:20:01 PM
-More of a linear plot, or series of linear plots. Time to put away the sandbox.
I've struggled to find purpose in a sandbox game with player led plots. They don't feel as real as a staff run plot and could fizzle out if a player gets bored or tired of how much time they are putting into things. That's not to say that a staffer couldn't get burnt out too, but hopefully there would be several working the same plots so they could swap in and give others some time away from the game.
I've played for a long time, on and off. I usually leave after
A) messed up stuff happens between staff and players, highlighting an imbalance, a system of favoritism, and sometimes legit abuse.
B) I end a long lived character that I've struggled to keep alive in a way that was really unsatisfying and made me question all the work I've put in. or ;
C) When I feel like I'll never reach or access portions of the game that are specifically appealing.
To elaborate, when A happens, it's most often power/control abuse, where staff takes advantage of a player because they have the power and a layer of secrecy to hide behind. This happens in every large organization where power is seen as a tool and an advantage, not a clear responsibility. For instance, because I own the game, it's my game, players are playing at my leisure and I don't /owe/ them anything. That's an easy position to take, and one with a lot of pitfalls. It's harder to acknowledge that there is an unspoken promise made to players that the goal of Arm is to entertain players while also keeping them oocly safe.
Within the replies to this post are former staff's responses, whom many feel benefited from favoritism and knowledge gleaned from being behind the DM screen, loosely claiming that it's players fault the game isn't more fun, all they have to do is /shake it up/, get creative. I can see many players, especially myself, cringing at the idea of the White Rantarri telling us we don't need staff to make us a Legend. While that's definitely true, we didn't necessarily want to be legends. We wanted the options for collaborative storytelling former staff and staff favorites happen to get more often than players. (Or rather, once got. There seems to be a new direction the game is taking, with safeguards put in place to help guide our journey, but as it's so close to the fork in the road, it's hard to tell from my own perspective if this new path doesn't merely lead to the same place)
While staff and player interaction has soured some on the game entirely, it's left even more in a middle ground of unsure footing and fear of further interaction while they try to maintain a presence in Arm, their favorite game.
Regarding feeling like I've lost time and effort for nothing tangible after a char death, or a plot death, I can only say I wish there was more. I wish Karma was more than (what I feel, and what I suspect others feel) just a way to pinpoint chars that have been marked as friends, or thoroughly under a thumb. I've rarely received karma on the different accounts I've played over the years. Usually, it's always halfway, or a third of the way to 'Staff Trusts You'. I wish I could have played magickers I'll never, ever be able to explore or tell stories with now. I wish the actions I took that impressed staff and players were noted, so I could repeat them. I wish Karma represented how much players thought I was adding to the game, or how /they/ thought I was illustrating the world well. I wish I could reach some of the seemingly unattainable heights of Arm without it feeling like so much work. I'm disgressing a bit, so I want to pull this back around to workloss and timeloss, but only after I mention that maybe my problems with karma are SOLELY my fault. After all, once I got soured by my limited interactions with a shadowy section of staff that may or may not still exist, I stopped reaching out to staff entirely. I don't ask for karma reviews or notes. I'm afraid to be incredibly offended. I'm afraid all of my thinks, feels, my solo-rp, my adherence to docs in the face of extreme disadvantage will all be summed up into "Not a good player, didn't emote enough while stealing that item, the one time I peeked in. I'm extrapolating the image of a bad player from a minute section of play. No Karma".
There are a few things I gain from my work in Arm. (it's not all work, but sometimes it is, and that's okay. I put in the extra work, so others can have more fun, and expect the same from the community.)
Things like seeing my actions affect the game world. Leaving a lasting impression. Coming away with great stories (that I cannot share with others who play or understand. Not for a year, maybe more). There /is/ karma, to be fair and honest. I gained a point somehow. That carries over from play. I get some IC secrets, sometimes. Some days, I struggle to see that as enough. Those are days I don't log in.
Then there is C), which isn't a reason I don't log in. It's a reason I consider quitting, entirely, forever. And often. What's the point of this game? Really? It's not profit. It's not an art project. Is it a social experiment run by the government?? If it's just a game for a community of people who love the medium, the setting, and the world.... are we playing /to/ that, or against it? It's not easy for me to tell.
When I picked this game off of the mud list in 2001, it was because it had magick, mandatory roleplay, and permadeath. Permadeath made the game more realistic, and allowed me to immerse myself in a narrative where dead people didn't suddenly pop back in because they were rezzed. It meant my char was a dynamic thing in a mostly static world, with other dynamic creatures. Me and other chars were capable to affect long-lasting change in the world, with realistic stakes. I don't know if that's still true. I just don't know. The fact that it had magick made it really stick out from other games I could try because it wasn't 'cast lightning at goblin' a hundred different times, it was seemingly better than that. Roleplayed out magic, something fantastic and more in line with the novels and stories I've really enjoyed, like the Sword of Truth or Neverending Story. (poor examples, I guess). And mandatory roleplay? That's something most of us can agree is just necessary to keep a serious, game-oriented and immersive environement.
Now, mandatory roleplay and permadeath sound like the tagline of Armageddon's real experience. 'Mandatory Roleplay! Permadeath! GDB Conflict!' Not a great tagline. 'Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal' seems a general OOC feeling of competition. I don't like any of the /feeling/ of those things, even I actually enjoy the IC, narrative reality of all that. I love IC murder, IC corruption. I love permadeath, mandatory roleplay. I just expected more.
Maybe some of you can glean some useful information out of the nonsense above. I don't communicate well, and have trouble with self-exposition. Give me a char, and black screen, and I'm /great/ at it. Make it about me, the real person, and in the context of 'How do you feel, what do you think?' and it all becomes a stream of consciousness babbling brook, winding and crazy.
To try and force some benefit for OP, I'll add this:
A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?
I feel like the vibrant, detailed world of Zalanthas is decaying into hard facts and items. There's nothing you or any players can do to get beyond X wall. In fact, there's nothing beyond it. Period. Stop looking.
I feel the stagnation is somewhere IC, and the stagnation is also related to Karma. This is what I get to play, and unless a mysterious, faceless force decides otherwise, will always be what I get to play.
The glass ceiling? I rarely ever reach it, so I can't comment much on how I feel penned in there. There is a very, very specific example of me seeing a goal of mine technically accomplished, but failing to actually live up to the spirit, not the letter. It hasn't been a year, and will out me to explain. msg me staff, if really interested. idk if it'd be helpful.
Karma gating? Yep. I got strong feelings. I think it should be entirely different than it is. If you're going to keep this same general system, I suggest doing this. First char on an account is the same, but after that, you get all the karma and it's /removed/ or lessened for failing to live up to standards. Not the other way around.
Shabago's a big jerk? Man, I don't effin' know. 'STAFF' has become a weird, effing term. It means everyone behind the DM screen. Does it still include everyone who fucked over or really messed with players? Idk. I really don't. I DO know that me playing the game doesn't enable staff to abuse or mistreat others. If I became Staff, and didn't leave or immediately call out wrongdoing, then I would be enabling. This means if one staff is a big jerk, and that fact is being kept hidden behind the DM screen, all staff is presumably responsible.
TL:DR Get a mission statement on the front page. 'This is what We, Staff, offer to you. This is Our goal.' Second, playing isn't always work, but when it is, I wish it felt more rewarding, or as if those rewards for my effort carried over or lasted. Third, Staff, we don't know who you are. Sorry if you get the backlash of past staff actions, but it's all really ambiguous to a casual player.
I've always enjoyed the survival aspect of this game, and treated it as that kind of game. It is my favorite genre. I recently had a fairly well branched character get roflstomped by a [redacted]. It was so enjoyable, I laughed so hard when it happened. Because I never used to die to stuff like that when I was playing regularly. I love it, don't change it. Maybe some of the other grinds are a little oppressive, but not so much that I think it needs to be tweaked more than a little bit. I mostly just don't want to feel like I'm mindlessly doing something (which I will do in order to grind a skill up sometimes).
I've quit a few times over the years, and once I did a little quiet quitting by just playing the most trollish character I could think of. Not super proud of the latter, but it was entertaining for me at least. My quitting most often involved personal burnout after a long lived character, of which there have been five that lived around a year (and weren't me trolling). I'm not going to do what I perceive others are doing, which is using the game's poor standing to leverage how they think the game should be run. I have my own thoughts on that, but they are ultimately not what kept me away from the game. Those were usually burnouts and frankly RL, as I've begun traveling more and more and working in excess of eighty hours a week.
I'll say the reason I've returned, for however long I don't know, was to try some things I'd never done in detail before. Magickers, desert elves, maybe dwarf or half-giant will get in the mix? And other thoughts and concepts. Looking forward to seeing what shakes out.
This thought came to me and I feel like the staff have a hard time following through with things. One example is some of the "A small peek behind the curtain" thread (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56309.0.html) and what the staff said that they are working on. Sure I think most are done but I would like to hear about new projects aside from the poison updates. So maybe more of keeping us updated on what is happening for transparentcy(SP).
I might be wrong here, sorry if I am!
Give more power to storytellers.
Quote from: Barsook on October 02, 2022, 06:40:01 PM
This thought came to me and I feel like the staff have a hard time following through with things. One example is some of the "A small peek behind the curtain" thread (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56309.0.html) and what the staff said that they are working on. Sure I think most are done but I would like to hear about new projects aside from the poison updates. So maybe more of keeping us updated on what is happening for transparentcy(SP).
I might be wrong here, sorry if I am!
Quoting my own post here, but I wish to thank you for that update Brokkr! I think more detailed, maybe weekly posts, posts on what is being done could help. I think that seems to be a common thing in other text-based games and also other multiplayer games. Yes, I know the release notes is mostly weekly but they aren't the same as just updates. My two sids.
I think if the Staff would allow player plots to happen it would go a long way. From my recent-ish experience, the staff have what they want to happen and it is going to happen. Even if the players opposing the staff position do everything right and the players supporting the staff narrative do everything wrong, the staff narrative goes through. Even if they just wait long enough for the opposing players to eventually die or give up. Also staff are obscenely biased to their own plots. They have no problem creating tons of new stuff for a whim but you spend months and months on something you get practically nothing.
Quote from: Barsook on October 02, 2022, 10:02:02 PM
Quote from: Barsook on October 02, 2022, 06:40:01 PM
This thought came to me and I feel like the staff have a hard time following through with things. One example is some of the "A small peek behind the curtain" thread (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56309.0.html) and what the staff said that they are working on. Sure I think most are done but I would like to hear about new projects aside from the poison updates. So maybe more of keeping us updated on what is happening for transparentcy(SP).
I might be wrong here, sorry if I am!
Quoting my own post here, but I wish to thank you for that update Brokkr! I think more detailed, maybe weekly posts, posts on what is being done could help. I think that seems to be a common thing in other text-based games and also other multiplayer games. Yes, I know the release notes is mostly weekly but they aren't the same as just updates. My two sids.
Keep in mind the arcs on some stuff, like most of that stuff, is weeks to months long.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 02, 2022, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: Barsook on October 02, 2022, 10:02:02 PM
Quote from: Barsook on October 02, 2022, 06:40:01 PM
This thought came to me and I feel like the staff have a hard time following through with things. One example is some of the "A small peek behind the curtain" thread (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56309.0.html) and what the staff said that they are working on. Sure I think most are done but I would like to hear about new projects aside from the poison updates. So maybe more of keeping us updated on what is happening for transparentcy(SP).
I might be wrong here, sorry if I am!
Quoting my own post here, but I wish to thank you for that update Brokkr! I think more detailed, maybe weekly posts, posts on what is being done could help. I think that seems to be a common thing in other text-based games and also other multiplayer games. Yes, I know the release notes is mostly weekly but they aren't the same as just updates. My two sids.
Keep in mind the arcs on some stuff, like most of that stuff, is weeks to months long.
Why though? Why does it need to be months? This, I believe and I could be wrong is the stagnation everyone is referring to. What is objective or problem are you solving by making it take more than a month?
I would challenge staff with this: Make things that take a month or more, happen in less than a month.
Quote from: Krath on October 03, 2022, 12:17:33 AM
Why though? Why does it need to be months? This, I believe and I could be wrong is the stagnation everyone is referring to. What is objective or problem are you solving by making it take more than a month?
I would challenge staff with this: Make things that take a month or more, happen in less than a month.
For the same reason any volunteer project takes as long as it takes, and not shorter: people work on things when they have time, space, and motivation. Sometimes those are in short supply. Sometimes they aren't.
Quote from: Krath on October 03, 2022, 12:17:33 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 02, 2022, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: Barsook on October 02, 2022, 10:02:02 PM
Quote from: Barsook on October 02, 2022, 06:40:01 PM
This thought came to me and I feel like the staff have a hard time following through with things. One example is some of the "A small peek behind the curtain" thread (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56309.0.html) and what the staff said that they are working on. Sure I think most are done but I would like to hear about new projects aside from the poison updates. So maybe more of keeping us updated on what is happening for transparentcy(SP).
I might be wrong here, sorry if I am!
Quoting my own post here, but I wish to thank you for that update Brokkr! I think more detailed, maybe weekly posts, posts on what is being done could help. I think that seems to be a common thing in other text-based games and also other multiplayer games. Yes, I know the release notes is mostly weekly but they aren't the same as just updates. My two sids.
Keep in mind the arcs on some stuff, like most of that stuff, is weeks to months long.
Why though? Why does it need to be months? This, I believe and I could be wrong is the stagnation everyone is referring to. What is objective or problem are you solving by making it take more than a month?
I would challenge staff with this: Make things that take a month or more, happen in less than a month.
For the one thing it was a custom script I needed to make, the items and the crafts. Which took longer than a month even before I posted. Then, if I remember right, it took a month for a player that qualified. Maybe not that long, but certainly weeks, and then the time to work in an animation that made sense to kick stuff off. And the project was made to be long term and not stop once it started. It isn't something with a discrete beginning and end.
Desert elves took some prep time for some of the stuff. And the way the opening was done was designed for maximum impact, not maximum transparency.
The other one had a plot associated with it that was around for about a month, and again, isn't designed to end.
Given that two of these are also not public as far as details....that doesn't make for great weekly updates other than *yep still going on*
I believe attrition is natural. Even video games spending tens of millions cannot keep up with changing times and shut down.
But it is very hard to win newcomers in this era, as many of you have pointed out.
Do we have numbers on this? I know monthly new player / account creations are a thing, but they might be extremely misleading.
Everyone can create a new account or login a few times.
I would very much love to see the number of -at least 300~ hours played accounts- on a timescale of years, perhaps from 2000 to 2022. (whether they are active or inactive as of this moment). It would show the game's actual player acquisition pattern.
I think we will see a very steep downwards trend there over the course of the last 15 years.
Quote from: downer
staff
Quote from: Filthy_grey_Rat
staff
Everyone in this community needs to treat each other with a boatload more respect and be more easygoing when people can come across as disrespectful.
Because I don't want to rag anyone here, take a quick metaphor. When I was in HS I ran a D&D game for my wrestling team friends. I was the only female there and the rest were male but otherwise we were diverse and very different people. Only 3 out of 12 of us ever played D&D and it was a shit show of a game.
Let's consider how this game went and how the game would hypothetically go if it were played by the most obnoxious, HYPOTHETICAL Armageddon staff and players we have today.
Scenario: the thief in the group was constantly AWOL and slow during combat because he was busy eating tuna and bodybuilding OOCly.
How this might go down in Armageddon: His character is stored for idling, or he was permakilled by something that realistically wouldn't kill him like an alley rat. Player decides not to play anymore.
How it went with my chill friends: we told our friend he could do whatever, skipped his turn, and poked fun until he did play.
Scenario: The DM has a damsel in distress plot in the story. A player who was a goody two shoes virgin comments that he hasn't done something like this before.
How this would go down in Armageddon: player blows the situation out of proportion because of their own discomfort, saying that a damsel in distress plotline is triggering and somehow sexist or rapey. They loudly quit and use overblown discourse to compel other players to quit.
How it went down with our chill friends: I teased the player for exactly one second and then dialed down the damsel in distress plotline for him.
Scenario in the game: Hyper competitive dude gets permakilled and in a worked up moment says "What? Fuck you!" to the DM.
How this would go down on Armageddon: thin skinned staff drops the player's karma or even bans them entirely.
How me and my friends handled it: I laughed off his comment and told him welcome to roleplaying games. We kept hanging out as friends and teammates.
I am not at all exaggerating with the hypothetical "How this would go down on Arm" scenarios and many of you know of similar incidents among the staff and players of this game.
My old wrestling buddies started a discord for a reunion game about two years ago and we had a reunion game. I've been thinking about this a lot lately because that experience was so different from my experience here. We've lost countless people because of a lack of self reflection, good humor and respect from players and staff alike.
Quote from: Oleupata on October 03, 2022, 12:32:30 AM
Quote from: Krath on October 03, 2022, 12:17:33 AM
Why though? Why does it need to be months? This, I believe and I could be wrong is the stagnation everyone is referring to. What is objective or problem are you solving by making it take more than a month?
I would challenge staff with this: Make things that take a month or more, happen in less than a month.
For the same reason any volunteer project takes as long as it takes, and not shorter: people work on things when they have time, space, and motivation. Sometimes those are in short supply. Sometimes they aren't.
Valid point, but I think giving an estimated timeframe might help us understand how long a project could take? Because that's something I'm always wondering is when we will see this. Sometimes it seems like be like empty promises, sorry to say that.
Quote from: Barsook on October 03, 2022, 05:49:53 AM
Quote from: Oleupata on October 03, 2022, 12:32:30 AM
Quote from: Krath on October 03, 2022, 12:17:33 AM
Why though? Why does it need to be months? This, I believe and I could be wrong is the stagnation everyone is referring to. What is objective or problem are you solving by making it take more than a month?
I would challenge staff with this: Make things that take a month or more, happen in less than a month.
For the same reason any volunteer project takes as long as it takes, and not shorter: people work on things when they have time, space, and motivation. Sometimes those are in short supply. Sometimes they aren't.
Valid point, but I think giving an estimated timeframe might help us understand how long a project could take? Because that's something I'm always wondering is when we will see this. Sometimes it seems like be like empty promises, sorry to say that.
Let's just say at one point we had a policy of not telling Players about future stuff at all, precisely because of setting expectations then having stuff take much longer or not get done at all.
Quote from: Barsook on October 03, 2022, 05:49:53 AM
Valid point, but I think giving an estimated timeframe might help us understand how long a project could take? Because that's something I'm always wondering is when we will see this. Sometimes it seems like be like empty promises, sorry to say that.
I understand where you're coming from. I play other games, too; games where I'm in the player community exclusively and the devs, managers, and admins are volunteers. In these games it would be amazing to have some kind of timeline I could look to, though non-binding, to see what's coming up and when, to be excited about it, to jump on the hype train or fuel discussion with other players about ideas and changes and so forth.
On this side of the curtain, though, were I to put out a timeline, it would be a huge pressure on me to get things done on time. I already feel that at work all day. I come to Arm, like the rest of you, to relax and enjoy something I love with friends, those friends being the other people in this community who love this weird niche game. If, instead, I committed myself to timelines and said "I mean to get X project done by Y time," I'd burn out and go away.
As for empty promises, yes, that happens. Sometimes things get dropped. Sometimes they get changed. Most games with active development and active communities like this one don't publish roadmaps or promises or timelines for exactly that reason. Again, if a system were put in place to minimize that by holding us to productivity levels or some such, I'd leave, and I dare say I'm not the only one.
In many ways I think Armageddon is a victim of its own success. I've played other MUDs and other games with active communities, and Armageddon is the only one I've ever found with such a tight-knit feedback mechanism between staff and players. Look at the request tool. For all its warts and drawbacks (like how it feels like you're playing the request tool instead of the game sometimes), have you ever seen another game with such a formal, regular, carefully-structured and effective coordination tool between the administration of the game and those who play it?
I haven't. I think people get used to how involved and dynamic staff are for this game, fall in love with that, and want more than it can actually afford, because it has already given them so much more stake in the game we all play than they get anywhere else.
Please always remember that staff are just people, like all of us. Staff have day jobs and we come home tired. Staff use this hobby to unwind and feel good about something personal after a long day at the office (or in the fields, or driving a truck, or managing a shop... you get the idea.) Only, instead of coming home and logging in to see what they can get done with their cool character they're hopefully in love with, staff come home and log in to see what they can do to help keep this place alive from the other end: animating the world, telling stories, answering wishes and helping players, responding to requests in the request tool, brainstorming and working on projects for the expansion of Armaggedon's capabilities. That's the only difference.
We're all stakeholders here.
(I also want to clarify I'm not picking on Krath or Barsook here. They're just the ones who happened to say something that inspired me to respond.)
I returned to the game when I heard Tuluk reopened, on a break right now, and "stagnation" definitely felt like the right word. It felt like players are trying their best to make things happen, but we can only do so much without some extra direction from staff. The world felt static and like there was nothing to react to.
When I'm not playing Armageddon, I'm playing a MUSH that has a playerbase about Armageddon's size, with less than half the staff. The game world is smaller, players are closer together, but there are still a lot of clans. It feels like there is something new and different going on all of the time. With a staff team as large as Armageddon's I think it's natural to expect some action. To be clear, I am not saying Armageddon staff are lazy. I have known several staff members personally and they were some of the most industrious people I ever knew. But I do think it would be nice to see what staff are working on. I don't need timetables or promises... just an idea of what staff are working on at any given time. So that we can at least look forward to something.
Reading some of the comments here about how there are too many open areas and clans makes me a little wary. So many people left the game after Tuluk closed. Maybe Armageddon's scope is large. But is that a mistake we want to repeat with other locations? Can the game world be shrunk without the world losing its variety and identity? If the game world was more of a hub city with all kinds of clan representation in it, would that be better than the large sprawling world where everyone is spread out?
If my post came off as 'It's Staff's fault', I'd like to apologize for that lack of clarity. Sometimes brevity can be more clear, from me at least.
As a vet, my lack of play often comes from not knowing expectations when it's not plain RL interference. What /can/ I do? What's expected of /me/ from staff? And what do I, at that time, expect from /staff/. These questions and my lack of concrete answers leave me in a nebulous place where I sometimes feel daydreaming about things to do in Arm are more rewarding than logging in.
I do notice the vast disparity between different players' feedback, and find that quite interesting, and a touch telling. Elaborating on that, as tempting as it is, is unlikely to be constructive. Arm can continue as it is, change nothing, and I'd keep logging in when I can. I'm addicted, and have found nothing better.
Armageddon hooked me and then lost me slowly over the course of several disappointments. In the end, I think I would blame staff attitudes for a lot of it, but not all staff. I'd blame the attitudes of some other players almost as much, were it not for the power dynamic that comes from being staff on a game. I hadn't played for that long when I quit, so I had the advantage of not being as entrenched in my addiction as some long-time players.
Here's a couple vague scenarios of situations that made me quit. I'm leaving out the ones that can't be helped, given what sort of game Armageddon is, and just listing a few that could help steer a way forward.
1. A questionable, previously-warned player is allowed a special role as the leader of a large organization. Borderline sexually abuses newbies to the game, makes me want to store multiple times, makes terrible decisions compounded by lack of OOC communication staff-side, completely ruins my enjoyment. Later I found out that this person made many people store through other iterations, from this borderline behavior, had been warned before, and that I probably should have reported it every time. You can fix this by not letting known sex pests play your game at all, let alone take the reins.
2. An antagonistically-bent player keeps reappearing through multiple characters, harassing my character and his friends, using borderline metagaming knowledge from past characters to try to get under people's skins more. I report this person, but nothing happens, and I continue to deal with their wild string of characters that all try to annoy my character or kill his friends or get them killed in stupid ways. Whatever happened to the general integrity of just leaving the things that your dead alt was playing with alone? You can fix this by clamping down a hell of a lot harder on someone who keeps antagonizing the same characters over and over. Take all their karma or temporarily freeze their account for a time-out.
I still have feelings about the game, even though I quit. I stored my character as soon as I got the point that logging in felt like a chore. It got to that point because of these kinds of issues, plus the general problems I have with what kind of game Armageddon is (it's a hack-and-slash engine jumped into a roleplay game zipsuit, and lacking many coded mechanics that are just basic must-haves for roleplay games in my opinion), combined with the sense of... well, the feeling I got from staff interactions. "Being a whiny problem" doesn't totally cover how I felt. I perceived at times that staff saw me as an RL antagonist that they had to argue down, or just vaguely tolerate, or course-correct through shady and inexplicable means. This is one thing I don't really know how you can fix. It's a cultural problem that can probably only be fixed by a total and complete staff wipe. Pick a few promising new volunteers and everyone else on staff can step down and just play for a few years.
Anyway, I hope this helps? At least maybe this post will give me some closure to my resentment for what the reality of the game did to my initial star-crossed vision of it.
... but reflecting on this made me feel bad for being mean to staff of the game, especially since some of them were helpful and nice and kind. Obviously you're not going to do any kind of staff-wipe, but if you do, I recommend using a poll to let players pick which staff they like best who should be in charge. It'd be like some kind of democracy.
Here's an open offer to any whom have listed staff issues as a reason for avoidance/quitting or what-have-you.
I have an open door.
No, really. Anyone can submit a request on issues and tag me to address them. If there is discomfort due to thinking someone beside me may read it - DM me on discord. OR you can come into the game and I'll bring you up staff side to chat it out. Will this solve everything? Maybe, maybe not. But at the very least, the offer should be made to you all, for a bare minimum level of shown respect to your put in time and efforts.
As to everyone else posting, I'm keeping pace and making notes. Staff discussion is underway on some things already said here - and rather significant headway has been made on a few things. Once some further hammered out details are had, there will be a fresh transparency post made.
Adding, as it's come up a few times now:
Some of you know but others seemed to not! My computer blew up a few months back and wiped out everything. Including my initial discord stuff. I couldn't get that handle back. So - if you contacted me before, that DM is defunct. Please right click/message me in the active staff list if you wish to DM.
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Quote from: Halcyon on October 05, 2022, 01:35:51 AM
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Yeah! YOU GO! WOOO!!!
Wrong thread, though, champ.
I started Armageddon mud about 20 years ago. Armageddon was a muck around for me then as I was mostly focused on other RPI muds at the time. I had a big gap and then started playing more seriously around 2012.
One big reason I stepped away from Armageddon earlier in the year was a RL injury. For a period I couldn't be at the computer, but that's sorted now, and most of my spare time has been spent playing tbc classic. I've logged back in a few times to Arm on my current character, but I can't seem to find the motivation. I think a big reason for that is having to try and start over again from scratch. Most of my characters get well fleshed out and can tend to live for long periods of time (one of them I had for like 4 RL years I played on and off), and it's daunting to go from having everything and being useful, to a nobody and unable to do anything.
Being Australian can make for lonely playing, and I tend to play outdoor characters so I have something to do solo, which can be 80% of the time. Trying to get into a clan can be a painful experience for me. Right now I'm wishing I could just get into the clan I'm wanting, and then the character might grow and I could be more interested, but I'm stuck at this point of I don't want to do anything with the character until I get clanned, so I just way leader PC and if they can't be reached I log off.
I do miss the Shadows of Isildur RRP options of being able to pick professions to start in that aren't just noble, templar, or GMH. The staff player call for the Steel Talons PC's was something I thought was a fantastic idea, and that sort of process should be further developed or more frequent, or just always available for those with karma. Leading onto another sort of problem I face, and that is picking a clan I can try and catch some players to RP with, especially the leaders.
I am in full support of a list on the GDB or webpage that has information on the current leader playtimes. I don't think we need to have names, just clan and FiC and SiC playtimes. This would make picking a new concept much easier, for me anyhow, because there are times I can play peak on my RDO's.
Something that has frustrated me over the years is when a OOC time restriction is imposed on achieving something when there would be no call for it when large sums of money/bribes should negate it. If I have the wealth, and certainly have friends either earned or paid for to support me, things should be able to progress. This sort of policy might have changed as I haven't looked into the player created clan process for a while now, but hopefully it's been made more easier, and I do like the sound of the Tuluk shop options. I would LOVE to see shops developed more, and the GMH utilising them. Each GMH merchant could sell from their own stall, and that way much of their time can be freed up to socialise and rub face with the elite and common plebs, and less time running about trying to deliver orders, and it still allows for competition in house.
Karma regen is not something that bothers me as I barely ever spend it, but it does look to be a little slow. Just a small boost might be worth seeing how it goes, and might help people come back sooner if they have breaks waiting for karma to regen.
As for stagnation, I feel to keep up with other games a sort of seasonal main plot needs to be running, and advertised. Over the past year or so one of the most exciting times for me as a player was the events leading up to the opening of Tuluk. I felt like I was someone important helping out the cause and there were lots of players in Morin's and it was easy to socialise and group up. Once Tuluk opened that died off. Allanak and Tuluk need NPC enemies. We need another Steinal for example, and the borders and empire of Allanak and Tuluk need to be threatened. I hate PVP in Arm, but I love PVE as I feel it's more easy to manage. PVE is ultimately better for players and we can mostly ALL get to be the heroes, cause that's part of the reason why we play games like this?
The Empire of Tuluk also needs to be expanded. It seems so silly to me there are no other villages or settlements beyond Morin's Village that is controlled by Tuluk. Each place needs a purpose, and a reason for the economy to benefit from it. E.g Dusten Village - is a farming village found in the Pymlithe groves of the Great Eastern Plains. Main export is pymlithe wood, but also a majority of Tuluk's silk production is gathered from these same groves during Ascending Sun. If people need raw silk, it would be sold from here at a cheaper price. Those merchants wishing to turn a profit could organize expeditions to then sell in Tuluk and beyond at higher prices.
Anyway, that's where I am at with Armageddon. I have a huge passion for RPI muds, but I am sorta lost with what to do currently. A big part of the problem for me is being Aussie in an American dominated game, which is nothing anyone can change. What I would like to be able to do is spend 1, 2, or 3 karma if need be and start as a Private or Corporal in the Legion or Arm, or as a Merchant in a GMH and so on, without going through the same boring recruitment phase each time, and not having to worry about catching a PC leader. Staff are much easier to arrange a time to meet, pickup an equipment bag and get my clan membership and go on my way.
I'm mostly a broken record when it comes to these things, but I'll try to at least put it in different terms.
Armageddon, to me, was never a 'pure RP' setting. That's not to say that it was not an RPI. That's not to say that RP is secondary to anything else. Its primary focus -is- RP, and RP is the single most important thing within it. But Armageddon, when it grabs me by the boo-boo, is a juxtaposition of several different things that can't be found anywhere else, and in multiple facets. Armageddon is a hardcore-roguelike with a varying, environment produced narrative. Armageddon is a chore-simulator/grinding game with storyline AND random obstacles. Armageddon is a social game with no pressure on socializing, just interweaving social networks filled with 'I-dos' and 'To-dos' and 'To-get-dones'.
I can find 'Pure RP' settings in IRC chatrooms, mushes, mucks, whatever. Armageddon was the only one that had a driven, player-induced urgency to reach a level of autonomy and success and interaction and 'make something cool'.
There has been a shift, over time, to make Armageddon have a 'long term' view of each character that matches the length of the skill grind, the time investment, so on and so forth. People got really frustrated that they dumped time into a thing that did not provide a return at the end. For me, the journey -was- the return. The 'traditional' return looked for at the end was more of a direction than a reward. This made strife and conflict expected, not an impediment. This made it part of the narrative that made 'cool things happen'. I could be completely happy with that random PK-happy dude over there and the one who built out an elaborate plot; they both provided me the same thing, which was the urgency to be able to defend myself, to accomplish things under the threatening clouds of failure, and situations to overcome.
Sometimes, I die quickly to some guy who decided I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong stuff (because he wanted it). Sometimes, I beat that guy, only to move into a place where this other person is preventing me from accomplishing this. But sometimes I accomplish it anyway. Every character was a series of trials, tribulations, and random events that could lead to my death. Death was the fear, but not because it made the character wasted; it was because I'm invested. That investment grows as the character does. You get more and more amped up at how cool your character is getting.
Now. I cannot say -absolutely certainly 100% no way it's another way-. But over time, we have attracted less and less enthusiasm for that randomness, for that ability for each and every person to just 'create events' by pursuing their own goals. We've pushed more towards 'The important thing is RP, and ONLY RP', without taking into account those other elements that provided actual -content-. It leaves people scratching their heads, looking around, wondering why they have to grind to do anything, because the original purpose of that grind was 'You're not safe without it'. It didn't matter whether that person who killed you made a great scene of it or not, what mattered was that between the last time it happened, and this time that it happened, did I fill up my playtime preparing for it? The death sucks. The downtime between was driven, with a direction, which was character development, improvement, and accomplishment.
The moment we started, as a community, downplaying the importance of feeling unsafe in 'safe places', the moment we made law and order super efficient, the moment we started demanding 'this should never happen', we began cutting out on the possibilities of random events in favor of a safer, more predictable direction. We demanded that everyone feel like everything had to be completely drawn out and justified to make our characters 'worth it'. And the problem with that is, it nullifies downtime, then expands it. It fills up more and more of our characters life with what IS NOW a meaningless grind, where it was NOT meaningless grind before, it was absolutely necessary. All that networking, plotting, practicing, pushing was in pursuit of making 'a notable' before in a place that pushed down relentlessly on you becoming actually important.
I haven't logged in now for a pretty decent amount of time. I can tell you the exact experience that took me out of that mindset of THINGS TO DO THINGS TO DO THINGS TO DO to 'Meh.' And it has to do with the world/game culture that we've created, with all the best intentions, but with 0 regard for how content is actually made in this sandbox. We can't just have a bunch of long, drawn out vendettas and high-bars for conflict; it may make out for a great story, but it makes for really -boring- lapses of time as the legwork has to be done on them.
I don't believe the game is malfunctioning. I don't believe we got anything other than what everyone was demanding for a long time. I just don't think people actually understood how slow-paced, predictable, and boring that demand was. And at this point, I think we've lost a lot of the people who were different types of player who routinely spiced up the world around them, and now we nitpick over what makes a good antagonist or what justifies conflict or how we can make conflicts let us stay alive longer. Stop making 'returns on the investment of time' the end goal. Make 'exciting periods of time' the end goal. Would you rather have a 50 day character who is slow-paced, or 10 5 day characters that are embroiled in constant struggles and conflicts and random milestones? One of those two things leads to boredom, despite having a great story. The other leads to a lot more short-term enjoyment that STILL tells all the stories around them. One of them requires everyone around them to provide content to engage in, one of them, when played on large scale, is absolutely non-stop content where you never know what to expect when you log in.
I don't know that our current playerbase can truly enjoy either one. Everyone hates one or the other. Whenever one dominates, the other suffers the drawbacks of its counterpart not being present, and we lose those people.
I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.
For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.
Quote from: cali on October 05, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.
For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.
This. I get that people having huge stockpiles of things sucks. So animate a vnpc burglar and wipe the stockpile. Don't make everyone suffer a constant needless grind to prevent something that is a nonissue for 90% of players. And if it's a clan hall issue, purge the items and write them off as being used by vnpc parts of the clan rather than being a burglary. There are ways around letting stockpiles accrue and sit that don't require everyone to deal with these timers which are just... not a source of joy. And for me in particular, this applies to special food items and spice. Poisons and cures I get how they can change the game to make it more deadly/more easy, but spice and (special item) food is mostly for RP, so what is even the point aside from the preventing of these stockpiles which, again, can be manually purged if they are that big of an issue.
Quote from: cali on October 05, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.
For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.
Food is another one of these things. Yes, your sandwich shouldn't last for months, but why can't it decay/be consumed virtually and a fresh sandwich prepared virtually? This also makes it much harder for PCs to provide piles of snacks for RPTs or any larger event with food.
Quote from: cali on October 05, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.
For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.
Setting aside poisons/cures/herbs as new changes, have you (or anyone else) noticed problems from spice degradation? Are you actually losing out on spice you were/would have used, or is the issue the psychic pressure of the degradation timer, or something else?
Similarly, has food degradation caused issues that lead to unfun, rather than more fun or something basically fun-neutral?
This is a general question, sparked by the above quote but not aimed at the poster.
The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues. No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.
Quote from: Oleupata on October 06, 2022, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: cali on October 05, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.
For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.
Setting aside poisons/cures/herbs as new changes, have you (or anyone else) noticed problems from spice degradation? Are you actually losing out on spice you were/would have used, or is the issue the psychic pressure of the degradation timer, or something else?
Similarly, has food degradation caused issues that lead to unfun, rather than more fun or something basically fun-neutral?
This is a general question, sparked by the above quote but not aimed at the poster.
Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient. I don't mind food. Food is plentiful but I can see how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.
I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.
Quote from: Oleupata on October 06, 2022, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: cali on October 05, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.
For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.
Setting aside poisons/cures/herbs as new changes, have you (or anyone else) noticed problems from spice degradation? Are you actually losing out on spice you were/would have used, or is the issue the psychic pressure of the degradation timer, or something else?
Similarly, has food degradation caused issues that lead to unfun, rather than more fun or something basically fun-neutral?
This is a general question, sparked by the above quote but not aimed at the poster.
Food degradation has made me unable to feed my clannies. My PC wanted to provide food to minions and had another PC bring in meat for the clan members (most of them were city-based and didn't hunt). This was completely infeasible because the food was decayed within a RL day or two, even in food containers, so I stopped paying the guy to bring in food. I ran into similar issues when I was trying to sell food to another PC who was looking to buy - decay is so fast that it wasn't feasible.
Spice degradation made the spice trade very hard. As a spice distributor (I'm sure you can figure out the clan), I would have to buy everything in larger amounts (thal or ideally, a whole brick) because small accounts decayed so fast. There'd still be something left over and decaying, driving up prices and really making the whole thing pretty unprofitable. This really killed a lot of spice trade, although it improved with better storage. There also seems to be some unannounced change (or a bug?) with spice decay - I've noticed that bricks last a LONG time now on more recent PCs. I'm not sure if I'd run into the same issues with the current rate.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 11:37:43 AM
The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues. No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.
Spice/food caused this because of the associated timers, or do players just stockpile food and spice more than other items?
Quote from: Nao on October 06, 2022, 12:40:55 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 11:37:43 AM
The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues. No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.
Spice/food caused this because of the associated timers, or do players just stockpile food and spice more than other items?
Save rooms are not designated by a flag. Specific zones are designated, every room within them is a save room.
Every so often one of the zones is saved. And when this kicks off, it goes through and saves everything in every room in the zone.
Zone blocks are 1000 rooms. We have at least one save zone where all the rooms are used, and the majority of them in the others.
There were, at one point, literally tens of thousands of spice/food items in save rooms. The other problematic item is herbs. Why? Folks stockpile them because maybe they or someone will need it someday, or they just picked it up and it fits or whatever. Combine this with low item weights (which is why stuff like armor is not so much a problem) and there is massive accumulation of specific types of items.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 11:37:43 AM
The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues. No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.
A good craftsman never blames his tools.
If you can't imagine a world where you can selectively purge things from a save room then create it.
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 06, 2022, 11:49:47 AM
I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.
What do you mean when you say 'become weird'? Do you mean start getting descriptions like 'sticky' or 'rock hard' or do you mean having unexpected effects?
Quote from: cali on October 06, 2022, 11:39:45 AM
Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient. I don't mind food. Food is plentiful but I can see how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.
Was this pinches and grains in a pipe or the like, or larger quantities?
I had hoped that the decaying items would have caused more player mingling.
Quote from: Oleupata on October 06, 2022, 06:29:58 PM
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 06, 2022, 11:49:47 AM
I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.
What do you mean when you say 'become weird'? Do you mean start getting descriptions like 'sticky' or 'rock hard' or do you mean having unexpected effects?
Quote from: cali on October 06, 2022, 11:39:45 AM
Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient. I don't mind food. Food is plentiful but I can see how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.
Was this pinches and grains in a pipe or the like, or larger quantities?
Oily in some cases, (I think pinches), hard in other cases (I think tubes), but since it was two different things, I figured 'weird' was an okay generalized umbrella. Consequently, I have stopped engaging with spice near as much, even though I love the hell out of spice related rp. Why waste coins on it? When every moment you are logged in and not using the item is one more moment it's losing it's usefulness it's either an incentive not to engage with it or to not be logged in if it's a flavor item you have and are trying to not just have go away on you.
Quote from: Lotion on October 06, 2022, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 11:37:43 AM
The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues. No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.
A good craftsman never blames his tools.
If you can't imagine a world where you can selectively purge things from a save room then create it.
We are not going to manually purge stuff like this over 1000s of save rooms when making stuff decay is efficient.
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 06, 2022, 06:52:29 PM
Quote from: Oleupata on October 06, 2022, 06:29:58 PM
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 06, 2022, 11:49:47 AM
I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.
What do you mean when you say 'become weird'? Do you mean start getting descriptions like 'sticky' or 'rock hard' or do you mean having unexpected effects?
Quote from: cali on October 06, 2022, 11:39:45 AM
Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient. I don't mind food. Food is plentiful but I can see how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.
Was this pinches and grains in a pipe or the like, or larger quantities?
Oily in some cases, (I think pinches), hard in other cases (I think tubes), but since it was two different things, I figured 'weird' was an okay generalized umbrella. Consequently, I have stopped engaging with spice near as much, even though I love the hell out of spice related rp. Why waste coins on it? When every moment you are logged in and not using the item is one more moment it's losing it's usefulness it's either an incentive not to engage with it or to not be logged in if it's a flavor item you have and are trying to not just have go away on you.
Or an incentive to routinely use it and buy more, rather than save it for when you
really need it.
Thing is, I never really need a tube of tho? It's fun to roleplay with, but if it's gonna just randomly turn into an unusable rock in my pocket, there's much more incentive to go to an npc about it than a pc (or not use it at all) because then at least I know I'm gonna have a better time with the timer and going to get only a pinch as close to when I am going to use it as possible. I can't imagine anyone deciding to engage more with an item that they don't actually need just because it disappears faster, but I'm not the one with access to those numbers.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 07:12:53 PM
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 06, 2022, 06:52:29 PM
Quote from: Oleupata on October 06, 2022, 06:29:58 PM
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 06, 2022, 11:49:47 AM
I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.
What do you mean when you say 'become weird'? Do you mean start getting descriptions like 'sticky' or 'rock hard' or do you mean having unexpected effects?
Quote from: cali on October 06, 2022, 11:39:45 AM
Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient. I don't mind food. Food is plentiful but I can see how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.
Was this pinches and grains in a pipe or the like, or larger quantities?
Oily in some cases, (I think pinches), hard in other cases (I think tubes), but since it was two different things, I figured 'weird' was an okay generalized umbrella. Consequently, I have stopped engaging with spice near as much, even though I love the hell out of spice related rp. Why waste coins on it? When every moment you are logged in and not using the item is one more moment it's losing it's usefulness it's either an incentive not to engage with it or to not be logged in if it's a flavor item you have and are trying to not just have go away on you.
Or an incentive to routinely use it and buy more, rather than save it for when you really need it.
If it is used for practical purposes when needed, how is using it when you don't need it and buying more helping anything? So you have to constantly use spice so you always have fresh spice. This is a very bad take.
Cause that is how addiction tends to work.
Although this is a good reminder to bump ideas on changing how spice bonus works, as well.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 07:11:10 PM
Quote from: Lotion on October 06, 2022, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 11:37:43 AM
The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues. No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.
A good craftsman never blames his tools.
If you can't imagine a world where you can selectively purge things from a save room then create it.
We are not going to manually purge stuff like this over 1000s of save rooms when making stuff decay is efficient.
Can you reasonably make various hoarded crafting materials decay?
Quote from: Lotion on October 06, 2022, 09:40:30 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 07:11:10 PM
Quote from: Lotion on October 06, 2022, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 06, 2022, 11:37:43 AM
The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues. No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.
A good craftsman never blames his tools.
If you can't imagine a world where you can selectively purge things from a save room then create it.
We are not going to manually purge stuff like this over 1000s of save rooms when making stuff decay is efficient.
Can you reasonably make various hoarded crafting materials decay?
There's a couple things that the game does to prevent a massive number of items to be stockpiled in save rooms:
a) limit the room size
This is the first hardcoded limit that prevents items from being stockpiled. It takes a look at the weight of objects, and then calculates a sum, and makes sure nothing larger than a set value can be stored in the room.
However, this doesn't work with 'small' objects, where their weight is less than 1 - it's not the arbitrary size of the room that causes the game to have problems, but the individual total number of objects in the room itself.
b) items that are classified as 'tiny' or less than a weight of 1 - see if there is a
reasonable justification to prevent these objects from being stockpiled
Feathers is a good example:
You have the ability to craft 5 feathers into a bundle. This reduces 5 individual items into 1 individual item.
Herbs have also been stockpiled, and they can weigh less than 1 - create a mechanical aspect that would destroy the individual items over time, reducing the total number of objects in the room.
Let's give it another example:
The code takes 0.001 seconds per object to "save to disk".
This is made up number of a mechanical limitation of physics and writing electronics.
If the room has 10,000 objects, that would take -> 10 seconds to save that room.
That means the game is writing to disk for 10 seconds for that one room. It's not being stored to memory - it's a SAVE room, so it's being saved externally.
Quote from: mansa on October 06, 2022, 10:08:59 PM
That means the game is writing to disk for 10 seconds for that one room. It's not being stored to memory - it's a SAVE room, so it's being saved externally.
Now I don't actually know how the code is written, but this also assumes all the data is being written to disk at once, and no attempt to keep track of what has changed, and only update differences. And even then, databases are incredibly efficient at writing data and might already handle this stuff.
Quote from: creeper386 on October 06, 2022, 11:17:35 PM
Now I don't actually know how the code is written, but this also assumes all the data is being written to disk at once, and no attempt to keep track of what has changed, and only update differences. And even then, databases are incredibly efficient at writing data and might already handle this stuff.
The whole zone is probably being saved at once, and since there are only a handful of save zones that means you're saving literally like 25% of the save rooms in the world at once and pausing the game while that happens.
Naively, I'd say you should replace the save code, and save/restore rooms on an individual basis with, like, binary protobuf so you can save them individually as they change instead of in a batch. With the side benefit of finally getting the "save flag" behavior that folks have always assumed existed. But obviously if it were as easy as saying it, it would be done already.
Been on break for a while. A lot of it is real life and schedule conflicts. Last couple times I had a character there was enough stuff going on to get involved but not enough to keep me invested when I had less free time.
I've questioned some decisions that have been made by staff before. Since you asked here's the short version:
- The game feels too top heavy and doesn't have the playerbase to support numerous leadership PCs. (No easy fix here without making someone angry but I would have never brought nobles back to Tuluk. It was a missed opportunity not to create a whole new social order that wasn't so top-heavy)
- Huge barriers to interaction when the player count is low like being offpeak. People are spread out and you sometimes need to get creative to even justify interaction due to IC status or culture. (I think it was a mistake to remove player housing from Luir's. It's the most central settlement and should be a hub, especially with Tuluk open)
- Code gets repetitive if you're trying to train up a PC, it's just not that fun if the interaction isn't there. (I'd happily spend my karma to skip ahead a little.)
- The tone of the game is also off, sometimes being a mundane commoner, especially a low class one, feels like you're in the minority of PCs. Which is a shame, that's the role any new player will first experience and should be considered the core of what most PCs are. (I'd focus staff plots on things that mundanes can interact with in some significant way. My uninformed take on the state of the game is that current plots are moving in the opposite direction)
- Redo the rules on some clans, especially GMH. People have the most opportunity for fun when they're allowed some freedom to shape a role or how a group is organized. (They're on the clan boards so maybe they've changed but the GMH hunter rules were needlessly complicated and not good. My take is to treat PC crews as their own business unit, let the leader decide on how it's organized (numbers of hunters vs crafters vs other) and just keep a hard cap of 6 or so total employees.)
I also decided the reply I got from staff that 'things are still open to change, it takes time' was unsatisfactory. At the end of the day the only vote I've got is with my feet. I wish Arm well and will probably log back in when I have tons of free time but I've found in the past that stepping away for a while makes it feel fresh again.
Quote from: SpyGuy on October 07, 2022, 06:35:07 AM
I also decided the reply I got from staff that 'things are still open to change, it takes time' was unsatisfactory. At the end of the day the only vote I've got is with my feet. I wish Arm well and will probably log back in when I have tons of free time but I've found in the past that stepping away for a while makes it feel fresh again.
Maybe Armageddon will be amazing again when we all retire and all the vets have time to play again. Looking forward to RP'ing with all of you again from the nursing home in 25~ish years!
Some of the things that has discouraged me from playing, when I do have free time, are the following:
1. The feeling that something is off with the game. The Lore, scare factor, rich documentation and history that drew me to the game in 1999 have been neutered. Yes, I know and admittedly, have no problem throwing hundreds of hours into the game focusing on skills and building a team. That being said, a lot of that was driven by being able to make a strong mundane pc be able to fight the Skeletors, Liches, weretembos, undead, Servants of the Dragon, Echri,and plainsman of the times of the past. There isn't that anymore. It is just PVP. Yaraya was a huge opportunity that I feel just feel flat.
2. The Byn. I love this fucking clan. However, they are mercenaries that can only do really two kinds of jobs. It is ludicrous to me that you cannot pay the byn to hunt, kill, and skin for the merchants, simply because staff say so.
3. Spice and Food Decay: everything I feel has already been said.
4. No staff driven plots - PCs die and everyone's time has been wasted when it's player run.
My interest in Arm comes and goes.
I think of Arm engagement in terms of two factors: (1) obsession and (2) return (as in "rate of return"). Obsession is the fun Arm gives you when you're not playing Arm--you're thinking about character concepts, imagining scenes, planning your PC's next moves. Return is how much fun you actually have while logged in.
I played a lot (for me, anyway) this last winter into early summer; was enjoying a PC I had and interactions with adjacent people. It did start to get stressful as my PC became "successful" and I couldn't just moop around doing my own thing.
Currently I have a PC that is fun to play, but various factors are sapping my Obsession:
- RL: I have much less time to play uninterrupted...in May I was on late night duty with a mostly-sleeping infant.
- RL: also a more normal schedule means that spare time is easier to spend on non-Arm projects.
- IC: People dying on an epic scale. I know, welcome to Armageddon, but seriously seriously.
- OOC: ...Look, with Arm there's always something to be pissed off about, whether more or less legitimately.
And on the Rate of Return side, the sad fact is that, even at Arm's best, my average Arm play session is...kind of boring. It's improved by playing a PC with lots of freedom of action, by being in a social center (so more interactions), or by playing the right kind of magicker (so less stamina regen time vs exploration). But I find that fun RP and adrenaline highs represent a small percentage of the time I play.
So, with my obsession currently on the wane, whenever I get a slight urge to play I tell myself: "Arm is a waste of your time."
Crackeddon etc.; I'm sure I'll get obsessed again pretty soon. You know there's a half-elf in Ginka's guff (https://www.gotquestions.org/guff.html) with my name on it.
Major things that have led me to playing less.
-No mage primary guilds. My typical pattern was alternating between mundane/nonmundane to keep skill grind and interactions interesting. As part of this I would also frequently change my location of play so I wouldn't be interacting with the same PCs I played with previously. The major thing here is that with the mage combos/synergies broken up, your best path to being a badass solo gick is to train heavily with weapons. Which isn't bad on it's own, but it does mean I'm on the weapon skill grind for every PC I've made in months.
-Utility split on primary classes. I understand that the idea was to force players together to interact, but with lower player numbers or a solo wilderness character it just makes life a pain. Warrior used to get skinning to high apprentice or low journeyman, been too long to recall exactly, but why does a wilderness PC like raider not have at least the basics of skinning figured out?
-Karma risk aversion. Typically I'm excited to try something new, but at the same time horrified that if I fuck up it's 2-3 months before I have another shot. So I play things safe to start, safe gets boring, and then I just stop logging in altogether. Then in a few months I remember Arm, and feel comfortable playing how I want because if I die it's not a 3 month wait just to try something new or different.
Those are the major ones for me.
Quote from: Oleupata on October 06, 2022, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: cali on October 05, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.
For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.
Setting aside poisons/cures/herbs as new changes, have you (or anyone else) noticed problems from spice degradation? Are you actually losing out on spice you were/would have used, or is the issue the psychic pressure of the degradation timer, or something else?
Similarly, has food degradation caused issues that lead to unfun, rather than more fun or something basically fun-neutral?
This is a general question, sparked by the above quote but not aimed at the poster.
I 100% have had spice degrade on me. It's very annoying. I have used spice frequently on any character I have had that uses spice - as most of them were elves, a lot of them did. Reaching in to find your spice is rock hard is a nuisance at best that doesn't really spark much RP. I even once had kemen someone gifted me, and I put it away to save it in my kit and it was nil when I went in for it; actually a lot quicker than I would've thought, I remember thinking.
Food degradation is what it is, imo.
(Edited to add: That being said, spice decay is what it is, too. But I think it's definitely negative, and I have played people that sold spice. It's just too short for a player that is logged in often - especially if that time was spent idling and waiting for RP.)
There's definitely alot of factors that push people to quit and leave and whatnot but sometimes a really big factor is the issue where you simply can't find anyone else to interact with. Especially in places like Allanak which is "meant" to be the "main" city there have been periods in recent memory where you could have spent actual hours waiting and watching for someone to come by the local tavern, and people wouldn't even be sneaking inside the Gaj. Personally that's a major turnoff to city play when it happens, and its important to recognize why it might happen even though there's other players strewn around the city. The T'zai Byn for as thematic as it can be... when staff get a little too schedule-happy or a sergeant does, people literally get pulled away from the rest of Allanak proper for something like 80% of the in game day, and are unwilling to visit empty taverns so after enough times of that happening... they just... dont. When people get too silo'd, you're not gonna get old players to really show up or new players to stick around.
Stagnation and attempts to shift the playerbase also matter. Luir's Outpost which used to be a decent hub for interaction is now usually pretty empty when there isn't a massive crew riding through. People loved Luir's Outpost and despite what seems to me to be apparent player agency it still lacks things like housing. Some people who play this game have no desire to play around the majority of city-politics or templars or nobles for one reason or another; and now they can barely play the game in Luir's Outpost as an independent. Sure, it was sacked, but you'd figure after however long since that has happened there would have been some major repairs and scavenging done by the virtual population, and people's plots supported. I've had plots where I told staff I was going to do this, did this, did that, etc with minimal staff involvement to change something, died to unrelated things and had the earlier stuff abandoned despite actual hours spent in multiple sessions trying to accomplish something. Request closed, find out nothing changed later, bummer. Stuff like that pushes alot of people not to try anymore.
Even stuff like GMH can be glamorized to be alot more than it could be. You hear about all these stories about what the merchants used to get up to, what they did and accomplished, and you get in and what you can accomplish is often a tiny sliver of that that wouldn't be touched by any improvement in rank or in-house trust due to staff policy, and so when compared to your predecessors, you're left behind. Can't move an argosy(read, the fortress on wheels) without a meager escort of five people to example, and you can't hire or use the in-house guards your merchants' cartel-family is famous for having, and hunters were closed until recently, and extremely limited in scope compared to what they used to be. Sure, it means you hire the T'zai Byn, but it leaves your capacity to move around as the role very much a pale shadow of your predecessors. Apply this to nobles too, same thing, apply this to templars who on a negative note cannot within reason snag up like 6 npc soldiers to provide interaction a sorcerer keeps demanding when pc populations are low. Makes people feel powerless when they hop into a role.
Not gonna get too into the can of worms that templars can often be, but it is also important to me to say that often times it feels like templars are often too heavy handed in the way they pursue certain plots. Or act in ways that drive people away from the game itself, or playcenters until that specific templar is gone. I think the old nobility helpfile applies perfectly well here, and while templars are inherently killers, beyond the scope of killing... it can feel like sometimes its more a power fantasy thing and a desire to win situations as they arise(even if they've already 'won) and the oppressiveness becomes OOC instead of IC.
Quote from: wow this doc was written in 2002?OOCly, the noble role is intended to enhance the game, and players who accept such a role should agree that they will play in a way that contributes to the game. That includes initiating events, providing employment for other PCs, cooperating with staff requests, etc. While it is acceptable to make another PC's life difficult for IC reasons, the focus of a noble's existence should not be harassing commoners, trying to enslave people who don't bow, or using NPCs to pkill.
I've been seeing a GMH sponsored role pop up about once a month lately. It sounds to me like there's a problem with the role. It's one of four things:
1. it's boring for whatever reason ('I hate being a glow crystal vendor')
2. it's stressful for whatever reason ('a templar is breathing down my neck for not constantly appealing to their wishes')
3. it's unengaging for whatever reason ('I can't find employees because nobody's playing crafters/not wanting to join the clan')
4. It's uninspiring for whatever reason ('I can't get an escort to fulfil my goals or obligations! Where are all the mercenaries?')
Quote from: Kialae on October 08, 2022, 09:27:14 PM
I've been seeing a GMH sponsored role pop up about once a month lately. It sounds to me like there's a problem with the role. It's one of four things:
1. it's boring for whatever reason ('I hate being a glow crystal vendor')
2. it's stressful for whatever reason ('a templar is breathing down my neck for not constantly appealing to their wishes')
3. it's unengaging for whatever reason ('I can't find employees because nobody's playing crafters/not wanting to join the clan')
4. It's uninspiring for whatever reason ('I can't get an escort to fulfil my goals or obligations! Where are all the mercenaries?')
(this isn't a sassy response, just my take on the very-clear issue you brought up)I'll try my best to keep it as non-IC-revealing as possible, but:
Being in a GMH sponsored role is incredibly stressful for some first-timers, because the reality of it is vastly different to whatever expectations you have going into it. Not to mention, you're trying to narrowly navigate the political platform of whichever city-state you're in while also being a subservient vending machine who can pay exorbitant fees to whichever corrupt person or group is trying to squeeze out of you day-1. It feels entirely too cumbersome when other players are breathing down your neck, and even if you're playing a corrupt character, give these folks some time to breathe and maybe we'll have someone who actually stays in the position.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 04, 2022, 12:43:34 AM
lacking many coded mechanics that are just basic must-haves for roleplay games in my opinion
...
Anyway, I hope this helps?
It would be much more helpful if you gave examples, please. Not picking on you specifically, but when people say things like "Armageddon needs a better crafting system", but doesn't give ideas or examples, or when they say "Armageddon is outdated, they need to modernize" with no specifics, or when they say "there's things lacking it should have" but don't tell us what they think those are, there isn't really much we can do. In those scenarios, I think "Ok, crafting system isn't to their liking. What is?" but I have no answers.
I know you said a lot more in your post than that, but I notice that trend a lot. People seem appalled that we don't have something better, but don't offer ideas or solutions. Not saying you haven't personally before, but hopefully you get my point.
Quote from: Halcyon on October 05, 2022, 01:35:51 AM
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Got any specific examples of a better system? Would love to hear them.
Quote from: Halaster on October 10, 2022, 09:51:04 PM
Quote from: pilgrim on October 04, 2022, 12:43:34 AM
lacking many coded mechanics that are just basic must-haves for roleplay games in my opinion
...
Anyway, I hope this helps?
It would be much more helpful if you gave examples, please. Not picking on you specifically, but when people say things like "Armageddon needs a better crafting system", but doesn't give ideas or examples, or when they say "Armageddon is outdated, they need to modernize" with no specifics, or when they say "there's things lacking it should have" but don't tell us what they think those are, there isn't really much we can do. In those scenarios, I think "Ok, crafting system isn't to their liking. What is?" but I have no answers.
I know you said a lot more in your post than that, but I notice that trend a lot. People seem appalled that we don't have something better, but don't offer ideas or solutions. Not saying you haven't personally before, but hopefully you get my point.
My problem with crafting is that the 'discoverability' of recipes is incredibly hard, and it should be that the acquisition of raw crafting items should be the hardest part.
I wrote about some suggestions here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57472.0.html
I dream of the day where I create a script to take a list of available ingredients and then sends inputs to the mud to see what recipes can be made from those ingredients brute force style. It seems like the game is meant to encourage this sort of "experimentation".
Quote from: Halaster on October 10, 2022, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Halcyon on October 05, 2022, 01:35:51 AM
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Got any specific examples of a better system? Would love to hear them.
From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.
So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.
I am going to say this and know it will sound a lot like Staff defense. But trust me when I say Staff and I have bumped heads over things many many many times. There is one staff member that we watch each other like HAwkS, but I can understand the reasons. But that is NOT the games issue with less players. Frankly the issue in game is the PLAYERS mainly myself! Half our gaming is or seems like to be small role play on massive amount of idle things. YES there is new crafts and stuff which is great. But lately Arma seems more on building up things we already have and less in story and actions. I can tell no matter what outlandish plots or anything a character builds the players seem to not even try to bite the bait, as if saying NO Code no adventure cause Staff isnt there. Without blowing my cover I can say over the last 7 years here. Myself have tried to push clan and partner plots only to hear players turn down and wait for a worldly event, otherwise we sit in wagons or tents and watch for someone to do something. We all are Arma we all have a part in the story and wold here. Lets drop the cringe and go for some amazing stories here before our characters and our real bodies run out of time in life!
ps. As for the Staffer who I said we watch each other. Yes we bump heads but you know I love your passion put into the game and do respect your input and our fussing it does help me keep grounded. and Yeah I maybe..MAYBE wrong here and there lol..
What I think would help some is.
1. Add more power to each Story Teller! Give them the powers to open plots for their clans. (let them make clan plots and events more often as they are able to put the time in themselves.
2. Poison and cures! Keep the cures cause seems fun once learned and just make poisons very rare to get. Surely there is a way to code set a plant or beast to give out only 1% of poison? (Not everyone and their cousins needs taints or should be able to without hard effort)
3. Magick I am on the fense with.. I like magicks but the subclass seems to take magick more into the world. wish we could reverse the class and subclass there maybe.
4. last one is. We all need to not be scared of trying out stories! We all can put countless hours into a hair comb craft so lets work on gaming ideas!
3.
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on October 09, 2022, 12:09:15 AM
Quote from: Kialae on October 08, 2022, 09:27:14 PM
I've been seeing a GMH sponsored role pop up about once a month lately. It sounds to me like there's a problem with the role. It's one of four things:
1. it's boring for whatever reason ('I hate being a glow crystal vendor')
2. it's stressful for whatever reason ('a templar is breathing down my neck for not constantly appealing to their wishes')
3. it's unengaging for whatever reason ('I can't find employees because nobody's playing crafters/not wanting to join the clan')
4. It's uninspiring for whatever reason ('I can't get an escort to fulfil my goals or obligations! Where are all the mercenaries?')
(this isn't a sassy response, just my take on the very-clear issue you brought up)
I'll try my best to keep it as non-IC-revealing as possible, but:
Being in a GMH sponsored role is incredibly stressful for some first-timers, because the reality of it is vastly different to whatever expectations you have going into it. Not to mention, you're trying to narrowly navigate the political platform of whichever city-state you're in while also being a subservient vending machine who can pay exorbitant fees to whichever corrupt person or group is trying to squeeze out of you day-1. It feels entirely too cumbersome when other players are breathing down your neck, and even if you're playing a corrupt character, give these folks some time to breathe and maybe we'll have someone who actually stays in the position.
I feel this is the issue the Merchant Houses have been having for quite a while now. I have played several Merchants of different Houses and sometimes it can be really fun, and other times it can be really numbing. I feel like there is not enough staff support on people that play in Merchant Houses, being ordering items in and in to the warehouse.. if you cannot get on ON the day they are loaded in, and there is a reset, boom, it's gone, and it can take another few IRL days to get back in for staff to have the time to get to loading it all back up again, meanwhile you have Amos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and beyond all screaming and complaining at you that their order isn't in yet. The last merchant I played, I made a point to have at least five of most common pieces made up, and a few of other things.. and stacked away in crates/chests etc so that if anyone needed ANYTHING boom they have it straight to hand, instead of having to wait and keep track of orders that need filling. It made life SO much easier for myself as the merchant, as well as other players that needed orders.
I have always thought item orders should be put in a bag and then placed in the warehouse, instead of having to have it loaded onto the vendors because half the time it just causes problems. I personally think that Merchant roles should have a slightly bigger team behind them to assist players in these roles, or, bring back having 2 in the same place, so that it avoids that feeling of 'I'm a vendor'. More so, that, most of the time, new roles mean they have to build a brand new 'crew' behind them, and, it is quite hard to do everything yourself straight off the bat.
The roles are amazing to play and very fulfilling, but, it is hard to push plots or be anything other than a glorified vending machine when one single person is expected to cater to a whole player base at once, and have to wait for at least a real life week to get any response from things that needed assistance 5 days ago.
Templars, Nobles, Sergeants, Aides etc are also quite a problem as, some people get a bit too 'trigger happy' with them and instantly leap upon new characters which can be incredibly daunting for the player of a new character they have yet to flesh out.
The fact that people are bored in Allanak is a huge issue for GMH.. They tend to just leap on anyone doing anything and look for every excuse to make their life hard. I find the more active you are even if you're not trying to cause issues people tend to still find reasons to try to push you out.
Also being stuck in 1 place in a merchant role should be against the law, if I want to leave Nak I should be allowed if there is some real crazy BS going on.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 11, 2022, 05:39:23 AM
Quote from: Halaster on October 10, 2022, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Halcyon on October 05, 2022, 01:35:51 AM
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Got any specific examples of a better system? Would love to hear them.
From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.
So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.
Specifically I was looking for suggestions to Halcyon's statement "...find a replacement solution that doesn't reduce player interest" in regards to a new karma system.
Quote from: Halaster on October 11, 2022, 09:08:18 AM
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 11, 2022, 05:39:23 AM
Quote from: Halaster on October 10, 2022, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Halcyon on October 05, 2022, 01:35:51 AM
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Got any specific examples of a better system? Would love to hear them.
From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.
So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.
Specifically I was looking for suggestions to Halcyon's statement "...find a replacement solution that doesn't reduce player interest" in regards to a new karma system.
I see. Tinkering with a new screen reader, so I think I missed that context.
Even so, I think an answer to my questions would be useful to the overall discussion if you have some time to answer them. Thanks in advance.
As for the karma? Take away the timer on at very least the first point. I believe the cool down should just be removed at this point and just let people play.. Perhaps a rule of no magickers twice in a row.
Quote from: Halaster on October 10, 2022, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Halcyon on October 05, 2022, 01:35:51 AM
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Got any specific examples of a better system? Would love to hear them.
Shadows of Isildur had a RPP role system that I think could be coopted and modified to result in a number of openings for S or Y race or subguild within a specific narrative context.
Example:
Byn mul warslave (1) (2 or 3 karma) - A cap on one Byn mul warslave at any point, but specapps or karma can be used to apply for it. Frankly, this might even be a karma 2 role with all of the restrictions on it.
House Jal "Pipecleaner" (1) (1 or 2 karma) - For the time being, there is a cap of one gemmed vivaduan in the employ of House Jal. This can be any subguild. This role will begin with a gem and five hundred extra coins.
A second set of these could be broken out by current clan access -
Sun Runner Bahak (1) (2 karma) -
Two Moons Choked Watercarrier (1) (1 karma) -
Northern Templar (2)
Southern Templar (2)
I dont think you would list how many of each tribe or clan were allowed, but give players where there was meaty story goodness to aim for, even with current pcs who could be trained, politic'd or be sentenced into some roles.
A third set of these could be broken out by current open plots
Southern Arena Gladiator (12)
Tuluki Templarate Mul warslave (1)
I suspect that knowing what roles were possible would be far better than any shield of information on plots. I think this would be doubly so if a role wasnt closed until a player had kept at it for a month without their character dying or storing. I think this approach would also add some transparency on how many players were engaged, and how many were tied up in "Sekrit" stuff.
Quote from: Halaster on October 11, 2022, 09:08:18 AM
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 11, 2022, 05:39:23 AM
Quote from: Halaster on October 10, 2022, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Halcyon on October 05, 2022, 01:35:51 AM
I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.
I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem. I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.
Got any specific examples of a better system? Would love to hear them.
From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.
So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.
Specifically I was looking for suggestions to Halcyon's statement "...find a replacement solution that doesn't reduce player interest" in regards to a new karma system.
Remove karma timers
Add +5 cap to mundane class skills (all skills across the board) as someone else suggested in a different thread (when no karma is used)
Quote from: Halaster on October 10, 2022, 09:51:04 PM
Quote from: pilgrim on October 04, 2022, 12:43:34 AM
lacking many coded mechanics that are just basic must-haves for roleplay games in my opinion
...
Anyway, I hope this helps?
It would be much more helpful if you gave examples, please. Not picking on you specifically, but when people say things like "Armageddon needs a better crafting system", but doesn't give ideas or examples, or when they say "Armageddon is outdated, they need to modernize" with no specifics, or when they say "there's things lacking it should have" but don't tell us what they think those are, there isn't really much we can do. In those scenarios, I think "Ok, crafting system isn't to their liking. What is?" but I have no answers.
I know you said a lot more in your post than that, but I notice that trend a lot. People seem appalled that we don't have something better, but don't offer ideas or solutions. Not saying you haven't personally before, but hopefully you get my point.
I'm going to go with the idea that it's worth the time to write out some suggestions, and someone I respect vouched for "Halaster trying to improve the game" so I'm going to try to assume the best despite witnessing many past occassions of concrete ideas being shot down or ignored.
Since this will be a wall of text, here's a song to listen to while you read it, because I'm considerate!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU39wKOvONI
Starting off, what do I mean by "roleplaying" game? How can it be that I think Armageddon lacks many vital mechanical features of a "roleplaying" game? Well, I see a roleplaying game as one in which you can play out the story of a character immersively. This means you want as few distractions towards the mechanical reality of the game, or the real world, as possible. The coded features must be smooth, not clunky and awkward. The fact that the world is persistent and our characters are not always logged in must not detract from the story. Events happening in the game must make sense in such a way that we
don't have to constantly struggle to suspend disbelief.
Here's a made-up example: Jerim the Ignorant Half-Elf is in love with his neighbor, Sera the Secret Half-Elf. Sera and Jerim have gotten very close. Sera confesses her secret identity to Jerim and Jerim struggles with it but they remain friends somehow because Jerim also suspects the same about himself. Sera gets into some conflict with the [gang redacted] and suddenly she disappears. Jerim is confused and upset. He always used to go over to Sera's apartment and she'd let him in and they'd talk about anything and everything, but now Sera has disappeared. It's strange because her apartment shows no signs of robbery. Even her key is in a pack in the apartment. But she is gone. So weird. Jerim goes around trying to find out if the [gang redacted] assassinated her, but nope. Maybe [gang redacted] is just really good at it. Jerim becomes a spice addict out of grief and eventually died while trying to get revenge on [gang redacted]'s [redacted leader] in [redacted way].
What actually happened is: Sera was experimenting with cures, drank a poison, puked herself to death all over the apartment, and then her corpse decayed in a matter of hours. Other similarly non-gang fates: Sera's player got sick and stopped logging in for the rest of Jerim's life. Later she logged back in and was locked in her own apartment and needed staff to teleport her out. Or maybe even Sera's player got bored and stored.
It
makes no sense for any of these things to be so hard for Jerim to suss out in-character. It's aggravating and infuriating for staff to act as if certain things must be found out IC when they are
not IC things or
the code is actively bad, anti-RP, and stops you from finding out IC. (One time a staff member was pretty rude to me and acted like I was metagaming because I just wanted to find out if someone was online or not during a time that they had agreed ICly to be online. I thought they weren't because the keyword I was using to Way them was wrong. Their full name was something like Gormless Bastard, and I was using CONTACT GORMLESS.BASTARD when really I should have just done CONTACT GORMLESS. After giving up, I ended up running across them in the street. Totally confusing BS. But this is a tangent.)
So, one suggestion: don't let player corpses decay so quickly. Have them show signs of what they died of. This is a suggestion I made before, immediately after a relevant event that staff were actually wished to be involved with, but the suggestion at the time was ignored (I don't know if anything about it has been implemented since, maybe it has).
Either way, this is
just one example of
just one way that Armageddon is
not coded as a roleplaying game by my philosophy of how a roleplaying game should be coded. Anyone who has been playing Armageddon for any length of time will probably be able to come up with a zillion more similar scenarios than make zero sense IC. Just think of all the times that some character has spoken to your character, using cobbled-together nonsense, to express some thinly-veiled meta-fact like "people get bored of their own lives and disappear all the time" to mean "he probably just stored, stop bothering me about what happened to him" -- sometimes even to mask what really happened.
I'm going to go into just three more things, because by now the song is probably half done, depending on how fast a reader you are.
Concrete Idea #1: A way to quit the game while on expeditions with a group. When I played in the T'zai Byn, this was consistently a problem. You have to respect that your players have a real life and might need to abruptly quit, without damning them to being stuck in an inhospitable wilderness and probably dead when they log back in. People will either quit and have to make up some reason for abandoning the group in the wilderness (must suspend disbelief) and maybe die for no reason (must suspend disbelief), or they will go AFK for the remainder of the expedition and not be helping at all and be totally unresponsive and maybe even have to talk OOC about it (jarring to immersion, and must suspend disbelief). Here are a few possible ways to implement this, going from least code-intensive to most code-intensive: a ) cultivate a culture where it's perfectly fine to wish up for a teleport back to base camp before quitting, b ) have a QUIT HOME command much like QUIT OOC that will teleport you automatically back to your clan's main quit room after three real hours, c ) have a 'fate of the group' that consists of present vNPCs -- something like a group NPC object -- that goes along with the group and players can fade in and out of when they quit. That way they can even contribute to the strength of the group, and if the group wipes, so will they.
Concrete Idea #2: A way for RP events to leave OOC offline messages with characters. Let's say for example the clan building was raided by [gang redacted] and completely destroyed, but some poor patron logged in there later. They have no way of finding out IC what happened. Depending on which staff they ask, the answers are going to be different, and they will get confused. Maybe people will make bad decisions about how to handle things that don't actually make any sense. Was their character killed by [gang redacted]? Pretty much no matter what happens they are going to have to wrangle the situation around in their heads to make sense of it, and suspend disbelief from several angles. This would be solved by staff being able to set an offline message for everyone who logged off in a certain area -- something like: "OOC - This building is burnt down. Your character was not here when it happened. Wish up for a teleport to your location of (reasonable) choice." Then the player is way less confused, maybe even a little excited, and no longer in danger of making any dumb decisions due to being badly informed regarding the OOC problem of not being logged in 24/7.
Concrete Idea #3: Dangerous and uncharacteristic command validation. Let's say your character is in a group of friends, out in the desert, and come across a gith. The leader of the friends is named Fith. Sirina wants to ASSIST FITH! But accidentally, her player types in ASSIST GITH. Whoops, she's dead now -- in a way that made zero sense and absolutely demands suspension of disbelief. This can be fixed by having a check on commands that wouldn't make sense, like someone trying to assist against the group that they're a part of. A simple question like 'are you sure you want to ASSIST GITH?' would be a lifesaver in this situation.
I didn't even mention an in-game courier system or at least leaving verbal messages for a person with NPCs because this has been talked to death already, but it absolutely doesn't make sense that a roleplaying game wouldn't have that feature. In a world with the Way, especially, it just seems ludicrous. Suspension of disbelief again. A few more features that Armageddon would need before I could consider it to have the code of a real roleplaying game would be a system where you gain skills through roleplaying rather than grinding (something like a RPXP system), and an overhaul of combat into something that makes more sense for a roleplaying game (involving tactics, character decisions, and more ability variance) rather than a hack-and-slash diku derivative. A roleplaying game also requires more social stats and skills because otherwise things don't translate as well through a text medium. If Fith tells Sirina, "I'm never gonna give you up, and never gonna let you down," then how does Sirina know if he is telling the truth? The only way is if Fith puts in something like an emoted evil snigger or a tug on his ear or something that has been established as a dishonest tell with Sirina. And in a game with the tagline Murder Corruption Betrayal, very few people are actually telegraphing their lies purposefully in their emotes. Very few people are considering whether their own character (a dumb half-giant probably can't see through lies as easily) would be able to tell, especially if they have any sort of meta-knowledge of the situation. But if you have a charisma stat and a dissembling skill, then people can actually codedly lie, and only people good enough to tell will be able to know if someone is lying or not.
To summarize, the main thing a roleplaying game should attempt to do with its code is to facilitate the expression of a realistic character in an immersive world. You want to try to
minimize suspension of disbelief. To do that, you have to be concerned with at least these things: balance the persistence of the world (a player is not logged in constantly, but that doesn't mean their character has disappeared), mitigate the issue of player skills not matching up with character skills (there is no way Sirina would have clumsily jumped between Fith and the Gith, her combat skills were expert level), and lastly: make it so that characters can try to mechanicaly do pretty much anything the player would have the idea to do. This last one is one that Armageddon already does better than any other game I've played -- but it still needs some work regarding basics of communication between characters and general area rumors that should be far more accessible than they are now. Can I ask a beggar NPC outside the tavern if Fith's gone in there recently? Can I try to pay the beggar to tell Fith to screw himself when he walks out? If my charisma isn't high enough will the beggar take my money and not tell Fith anything?
Some people reading this post might think I'm being insane, that there is no way a game can handle all this. Maybe back in the day when I was only playing games I would think the same thing, but I am helping out with coding a game with someone whose vision and opinion I respect 100%, and I know all this and more is definitely doable -- in fact, the game I'm working on (which we don't even consider to be fully finished yet) already has everything I've mentioned here and we've only been working on it for two years. So, I'm way less receptive to the excuse of "we just can't do that with the code" because in my experience,
where there's a will, there's a way. What I hear when someone says that is "we don't want to do that because we don't care enough", and that's what I've heard enough of here. Song should be done now.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 11, 2022, 02:23:47 PMJerim goes around trying to find out if the [gang redacted] assassinated her, but nope. Maybe [gang redacted] is just really good at it. Jerim becomes a spice addict out of grief and eventually died while trying to get revenge on [gang redacted]'s [redacted leader] in [redacted way].
What actually happened is: Sera was experimenting with cures, drank a poison, puked herself to death all over the apartment, and then her corpse decayed in a matter of hours.
I think anyone who's played Arm long has taken a turn as both Jerim and Sera. (This is bad and a drain on the game.)
A while back a vet told me (paraphrased): you can make so much of Arm if you just...take the shit that happens to your PC seriously. Too many of us experience X, Y, Z in game, kind of shrug it off because it was slightly lame or not what we expected, and then complain that nothing is happening. I think this was very good advice!
However, the predominance of weird/random/lame stuff in game works against this. Your buddy died...and you should care...but your last four buddies died too, and it was always something random, not something interesting. Even in the case of a PK...was it for real, human[oid] motives? Or was it just because "I was there, I had maxed backstab, and <checks background> I'm a baddie?"
So, er, to sum up: environmental danger is good for the game, murder is good for the game, but
inscrutable chaos (whether PVP or PVE) is bad for the game.
At your table, the figure in a dark hooded cloak says,
"Most of my hits are spur of the moment."
lol okay buddy.
This has been a good read.
I don't think Karma is a really big hit, that's just my opinion. I don't have a problem playing a mundane if by some chance my previous PC didnt last long enough to regen karma.
There's a lot here to unpack and consider. A lot of familiar things that have come up as well time and time again.
I think something to seriously consider, and i've brought this up before, is for staff to consider loosening the limitations around leadership roles so far as their boundaries. I could point specifically to GMH, but it expands well beyond them. Have those IC world reactions, absolutely, but let players run and shake things up. I know this has happened to some degree more as of late, but i'm saying REALLY let players run with it. Whether they dig their own grave, or blow up some longstanding hierarchy. If the roleplay is there, and the players are digging something, stop putting artificial caps on it for the sake of perceived balance. I feel like this would, at a minimum, generate interest in certain areas.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 11, 2022, 02:23:47 PM
...despite witnessing many past occassions of concrete ideas being shot down or ignored.
I'd like to start with saying that ideas being shot down or not implemented doesn't mean staff doesn't care, or as you put it "we don't want to do that because we don't care enough". I'll go out on a limb here and say the more likely explanation is that staff either didn't hear your idea in the first place (I personally probably only read about 10% of the GDB due to volume and time constraints), or considered and didn't think it was sound or in the best interest of the game, or the ROI wasn't worth it, or they didn't have the skill level to make it, or a lot of reasons. Admittedly, maybe they didn't communicate that to you well enough, and could use some improvement in that area. I can tell you that we have a lot of ideas thrown at us, many people calling them
concrete, even. It's difficult to respond properly to them all, so if you were outright ignored, you have our apologies for that.
Since you code for another game, I'm sure you're aware that a lot of people have ideas that they want done, but it's simply unrealistic to do them all. Or their ideas don't align with your vision for your game. Maybe even you have a lot of ideas of your own, but there's only so much time you can devote to your hobby. I doubt your lack of implementing them means you don't
care about your game. But rather, you've prioritized what you feel is the best use of your time.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 11, 2022, 02:23:47 PM
Concrete Idea #1: A way to quit the game while on expeditions ...
'quit ooc' was specifically made for scenarios like this, maybe not enough people know about it? But I think what you're getting at is a way for them to be able to automatically go back 'home'. Knee-jerk reaction I'm hesitant to do something like that because I don't like the idea of people getting 'free' travel to avoid danger. But I also totally understand the sentiment, considering RPT's can take waaay long than most anyone wants them to. I'm intrigued by the third idea, that your fate is tied to the group's success, but I can also see a ton of complaints coming in "I died and I wasn't even on?! lame!!". I do agree that something could be improved in this area, maybe the best bet is just to get staff to be more willing to do those transports as needed. I have seen it done in the past, but it's not consistent because we have no policy either way regarding this. Maybe we should.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 11, 2022, 02:23:47 PM
Concrete Idea #2: A way for RP events to leave OOC offline messages with characters...
That's a neat idea. Leaving an echo/message that people see if they log back in a specific room. It would need an expiration, I think, because there's a good chance someone's going to forget to remove it and years later someone logs in and is thoroughly confused. And of course staff would have to know something happened to warrant using it, and then actually use it. It would definitely need assistance from players like: "wish all Hey could someone put a login echo in this room because I exploded the Sun Runner camp with my mind!". But overall I do dig the idea in some form, and can see its benefit.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 11, 2022, 02:23:47 PM
Concrete Idea #3: Dangerous and uncharacteristic command validation...
We do this already in some scenarios, like walking off the shield wall and into certain directions you're required to type like 'east regardless'. Unfortunately it's not consistently applied. But there really is no good way to account for "typos", which is essentially what that is. How would the game know when to give you that check whether or not you really meant to assist gith vs assist fifth? A crazy number of possibilities would have to be coded. Maybe I lack the skill required to pull this off (quite possible), but this seems to me like a pretty monumental task for a small benefit in the end. My suggestion would be to use in game and/or client aliases. Create one like "savefifth" that parses out to 'assist fith' and then use that in combat. I could maaaybe see a more blanket approach in a toggle-able setting like "safe combat" or something. Where you individually get prompted for ALL hostile actions you type, and have to turn it on. But with that we actually don't (to my memory) have any system in the game where it asks you a sort of "Are you sure" and waits for only a response to that question, ignoring all else. I'd say this one is more of a technical challenge that it's worth and don't see it happening, particularly considering our limited resource of coders. Is it possible? Most likely. Is it worth the effort? Not in my opinion.
Thanks for the ideas, I particularly like the first two in some form.
Thanks Halaster, I appreciate the thoughtful reply and the consideration. I won't get into the nitty-gritty anymore, but a lot of my judgments have to do with the philosophy on what makes a roleplaying game. I'm sure that my vision is not completely identical to anyone else's. And also....
I have no experience or imagination enough to fully comprehend what it's like to staff a game as large and long-running as Armageddon. So, while I may criticize and complain, I am aware that what you and other staff members do for this game is very real work that takes a great deal of care. By not caring I meant more like "I don't care what you want", rather than "I don't care about this game".
To revisit the point of this thread: Recently, venting so much has gotten rid of many of my more bitter and resentful feelings, so I don't have those. And I have people I like who still play Armageddon and would probably like me to play again too. After this post from you I thought about playing again, in the hope that it will be worth it and I won't have to suspend quite so much disbelief in the future versions of the game. But I just can't bring myself to do it, because imagining the reality of the current game with all its still-existing faults, and additionally its general meaningless chaos as mentioned above, is just a big detraction for me. I guess the initial illusion is just gone. Maybe I will come back someday, but not now.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 11, 2022, 09:16:12 PM
Thanks Halaster, I appreciate the thoughtful reply and the consideration.
Just wanna say I also appreciate Halaster genuinely trying and replying earnestly. Cheers.
Quote from: Bebop on October 11, 2022, 09:39:21 PM
Quote from: pilgrim on October 11, 2022, 09:16:12 PM
Thanks Halaster, I appreciate the thoughtful reply and the consideration.
Just wanna say I also appreciate Halaster genuinely trying and replying earnestly. Cheers.
I echo my Queen's sentiment. Thank you, Halastar.
First I'd like to list just a few reasons why I DO play Armageddon:
1) Limitless (more on this later) possibilities. Each new character is an unwritten story and the excitement (for me) felt upon receiving that email from Apache Mud is real - even after more than 200 some-odd characters and approaching two decades of play. This feeling of possibility is why I cannot typically get invested in any "visual" game for more than a few hours before I close it down and return to Armageddon.
2) The feeling of building something (character progression through RP and/or skill advancement) and the real sense of loss when (most) characters die. I personally love "the grind" though I can understand why many players do not.
3) The structure and demand of the game to fill a role and not just be some mindless hack-and-slash automaton (though my character notes will certainly suggest this has been a WIP and I am still in awe of some of the imagery presented by some of the other plays here).
Plenty more, but these are probably the top 3 reasons why I DO play, and I think it's important to start positive and explain that.
Now for the reasons why I sometimes DO NOT feel like playing, and why (in my humble opinion) I think the mud's numbers have steadily declined BEYOND those who have just simply outgrown the game or do not have time for it bc of RL commitments.
1) I dislike the "glass ceiling". That feeling that even if I did everything right (unlikely) I will be unable to achieve X or that if I DID achieve X, I would most likely be forced to store. Things like "becoming a Red/Black Robe", "becoming a Senator", "building a small village by the bootstraps and lording over it", "supreme commander of the Byn", "House Head" etc.
Now, I am sure some may say "These are possible. These have been done before" and if so I won't argue. I have the feeling, real or imagined, that a glass ceiling is there, whether it is or it isn't, and sometimes it is discouraging. Now logically, I know WHY these roles are restricted and logically agree that this level of power in someone's hands can have extreme effects on the game world, but I suppose I want that feeling of truly limitless possibility, even if I understand my characters chances of personally achieving this are so close to zero as to be indistinguishable. I have to believe other players may feel similarly.
Personally, I think it'd be a real treat if the best of the best players (definitely not me) were able to have a profound effect on pieces of the world if enough work was put in (by the player) and that they could actually reap the reward of that work. I would find this encouraging and inspiring toward continuing to improve my own play - a win/win.
2) The spending of Karma. I can't say for certain if this is the sole motivation, but I suspect the spending of karma is intended to keep the player base from being too heavy on some of the heavier karma options. I'll try to keep this short and sweet - while I think there are players that wouldn't care one bit if they had 0/x karma for options, there are others that would muscle through the karma recovery and play something non-ideal while they wait for regeneration and another subset of players who simply won't play at all until they can. Of these three subsets, #2 is probably not as passionate as they would be if they were playing what they wanted to play and #3 isn't playing at all. I know there are many that will disagree - but I'd rather see 60-70 players online with 40 of them being high karma roles than to see 10-20 players online because 25 others are trying to force themselves to play something they aren't passionate about here and there in between doing something else to kill time and 20 more are simply waiting not playing. Don't ask me to prove my ratios - I can't. Just a very broad example.
Again, I understand the logic of trying to maintain a balance of player class/race, but I truly believe it's better to let people play what they want (if they've proven they can handle it via karma award) if it means they will play. I think we'd find that many people will be more passionate about the more mundane roles after they've had their fill of the other stuff, and will naturally balance themselves over time.
3) Restrictions in general on clans - closely related to the above. I understand the logic of trying to maintain a balance, but if a large number of players want to, for example, be hunters for Salarr, screw it - let em. Better to have a bloated Salarri group for however long that lasts and have people playing, than to have fewer people playing at all or playing something they don't want to play and aren't as passionate about.
I think that's enough of a rant for now - so I'll sum it up my suggestions:
1) Build a culture of "If you put in the time, the work, the effort, make the right choices and experience a healthy amount of luck - you can achieve your goals."
2) Get rid of the karma spend - if someone has enough karma to play race x/subclass y - let them play it if that's what has them playing.
3) Similar to the above - let players play where they want/how they want to play, so long as they have created a believable character that fits with the game world.
4) Understand that while rigorous rules/standards are good, too much control can cause something to stagnate. 0 players online is a very easy thing to manage, but can't possibly fit within the vision of the staff, or someone would have just taken a hammer to Ginka a long time ago.
Thanks for reading.
Quote from: Halaster on October 11, 2022, 08:39:33 PM
How would the game know when to give you that check whether or not you really meant to assist gith vs assist fifth? A crazy number of possibilities would have to be coded.
- Checking whether the target is an aggro NPC would cover a lot of common cases. So would a race check. It doesn't have to be perfect to save most of your whoopsies victims!
- Make the check something you can bypass if you think you're a pro. (E.g.: the message warns you to type "assist dude!" instead of "assist dude"; you can always add the ! to just go for it.)
- Imagine adding
teams functionality for those big combat RPTs... "set team allanak" expires when you log out, warns you if you try to assist someone attacking a member of your team.
Quote from: Fragmented on October 12, 2022, 01:39:01 AM
4) Understand that while rigorous rules/standards are good, too much control can cause something to stagnate. 0 players online is a very easy thing to manage, but can't possibly fit within the vision of the staff, or someone would have just taken a hammer to Ginka a long time ago.
Wanted to chime in that I personally prefer, if not rigorous, OPEN rules/standards/expectations. There is nothing more demoralizing to me (an adult, choosing to spend their time in this VERY niche experience) than suddenly coming up against the fact that I broke a rule I didn't know existed. See: Stealing from an NPC that shouldn't be stolen from, or being able to kill something that you shouldn't have been able to with the skills you had. Suddenly you broke a very big rule, and rather than talk to you about it, it is immediate consequences.
Rules are good. Expectations are good. Be more open about your expectations instead of treating players like obstinate children because you had a bad fucking day.
I see a lot of feedback on karma. If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?
Quote from: Brokkr on October 12, 2022, 06:53:59 PM
I see a lot of feedback on karma. If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?
I think the attempt at changing the subclasses, (which was discussed here -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58108.0.html), was a very good attempt at fixing some of that issue.
Brokkr I think maybe don't karma hate the Desert elves like if you have 1 karma you can play that race.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 12, 2022, 06:53:59 PM
I see a lot of feedback on karma. If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?
It would be different. People who only play gicks/karma races would not say anything different. People who play both would not say anything.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 12, 2022, 06:53:59 PM
I see a lot of feedback on karma. If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?
My humble opinion only - I think this is a good toe-in-the-water measure, but to truly answer your question, yes, my feedback would be more or less the same, because while I would certainly be happy to see such a change, I think the underlying problem I suspect is out there would still remain.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 12, 2022, 06:53:59 PM
I see a lot of feedback on karma. If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?
I'd say so, yes. Absolutely.
I think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.
Is it to look for ways to pull back players who leave the game temporarily while waiting for something to happen before rejoining the game? Because if so, the karma timer adjustments will solve that problem.
Or is it to look for ways to pull back players who have left the game indefinitely, as well as pull in new players, because the playerbase has shrunk significantly over the past several years? Because a karma timer adjustment isn't going to fix that problem.
That is not to say that you shouldn't adjust the karma timer. I just think that this thread's main focus on it over the past couple of pages doesn't imply that we aren't also trying to solve problem #2.
I think the karma timer changes would increase retention and I think that would in turn start to help correct the other issues of population and "boredom".
The parts about the glass ceiling and hidden rules and not clear guidelines are also important but moreso to players who have indefinitely left.
QuoteI think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.
It shifted from hearing from people who weren't playing to a general gripe thread.
I honestly think all of the problems the game currently has would go away if we added 20-40 consistent new players to the game.
Bored? Not enough happening? Go find another person to mess with.
Clan empty? Not anymore.
Don't like staff plots? Do something with other people.
Game lost its luster? Nowhere new to explore? Show the new blood these places. Ask them those same questions and expand their wonder.
It seems like a lot of interest is being put towards retaining older players or bringing people back. I believe a lot of the people who left or are already jaded aren't going to be easily won back, but newer players won't have any of those issues.
It would be so easy to grassroots some projects and bring 100+ new bodies to this community. Even at its worst where 10 of them are hawking porn sites in the gaj, that's an easy fix and if even 5 players stay then that's a boon to the community. It would be so easy now too with D&D becoming mainstream.
I don't believe you're going to win people back over to the game that have either already filled that niche or have too many personal reasons not to come back- no matter what new things get added. Most of the reasons I see people dropping the game have to do with relationships with other players or staff, not code changes. That said, there is a chance to bring them back if there is more to do than hang out with the same 20 people you already dislike or the staffer you swear hates you. New people might actually bring back old players. I doubt many people would pass up logging on at least once if they heard we were averaging 60 players at peak.
Yeah that stuff about karma regen is ridonk. Can't live a month and a half as a karma player? Then too bad roll mundane you snowflake. High karma only playing high karma roles one after another for years should lose karma I reckon.
Needless aggression aside, game seems pretty healthy to me. I took a short break when I wanted to take a short break. I'm back because I want to be back. :)
Quote from: Inks on October 14, 2022, 07:02:45 AM
Yeah that stuff about karma regen is ridonk. Can't live a month and a half as a karma player? Then too bad roll mundane you snowflake. High karma only playing high karma roles one after another for years should lose karma I reckon.
Needless aggression aside, game seems pretty healthy to me. I took a short break when I wanted to take a short break. I'm back because I want to be back. :)
You're missing the entire point of this thread...
1) Some people are not rolling mundanes and would rather wait a month and a half instead of playing roles they don't want to play. It's not a problem for them, which is why they're not playing and OP wants to know why.
2) Forcing players to play roles they don't want to play so they don't lose karma is not going to make them want to come back ... Why would I care if I lose a karma since I'm barely playing these days anyway? (not me, but in general). You're just going to piss of players even more that way.
Quote from: TragicMagick on October 13, 2022, 02:08:26 PM
It would be so easy to grassroots some projects and bring 100+ new bodies to this community. Even at its worst where 10 of them are hawking porn sites in the gaj, that's an easy fix and if even 5 players stay then that's a boon to the community. It would be so easy now too with D&D becoming mainstream.
If you have a concrete proposal along these lines please do put in a request for the request tool. When we asked for help forming an advertising committee, we didn't get much response. However, it's still definitely something we're interested in.
Quote from: Oleupata on October 14, 2022, 10:28:53 AM
Quote from: TragicMagick on October 13, 2022, 02:08:26 PM
It would be so easy to grassroots some projects and bring 100+ new bodies to this community. Even at its worst where 10 of them are hawking porn sites in the gaj, that's an easy fix and if even 5 players stay then that's a boon to the community. It would be so easy now too with D&D becoming mainstream.
If you have a concrete proposal along these lines please do put in a request for the request tool. When we asked for help forming an advertising committee, we didn't get much response. However, it's still definitely something we're interested in.
Oh! Alright! I didn't see that ask, I think.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 13, 2022, 08:42:46 AM
I think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.
Is it to look for ways to pull back players who leave the game temporarily while waiting for something to happen before rejoining the game? Because if so, the karma timer adjustments will solve that problem.
Or is it to look for ways to pull back players who have left the game indefinitely, as well as pull in new players, because the playerbase has shrunk significantly over the past several years? Because a karma timer adjustment isn't going to fix that problem.
That is not to say that you shouldn't adjust the karma timer. I just think that this thread's main focus on it over the past couple of pages doesn't imply that we aren't also trying to solve problem #2.
I brought it up due to perceived player numbers when people type who.
I assume there is some difference between the percent of people on the GDB in favor of no karma timers and the actual population, plus or minus. Still, if the population looks 5 higher, I think more people will stay logged in looking for fun. Its a snowball effect both ways up or down, so we should remove reasons why engaged players arent logging in.
My perception from various games is that there are social alphas, and 2-5 people play around them only when they are playing. 8 people voted against the karma timer, so there are probably 30 players who dont log in when their ringleaders arent playing.
I think the karma timers solves some problems. I just dont think the side effect of the solution is a good idea at the moment.
I think just keep the timer on magick classes and don't have it on races or esgs. I believe that would solve what is being talked about.
Speaking for myself, karma timer changes wouldn't draw me back into Armageddon. Partly because I don't remember my old account password, and don't have access to my old Armageddon email anymore, so I have to make a new account if I want to play again, which is no big deal. The other part is I enjoy zero-karma roles more, anyway... the karma timer was never an issue for me and I imagine there are other people in my position as well.
If removing the karma timer for subguilds and races draws a few people back into the game more often... awesome. I will be happy for those players as long as they're having fun again.
Speaking for the three former Armageddon players I know (two I met while playing Arm, one I met after my most recent departure), I don't think a karma timer addresses their issues either. In fact, I spoke with them about this thread and asked them to post here, but they would rather not, and instead told me I could post their concerns here if I wanted. I do want to, so I'm going to paraphrase the conversations a bit.
#1 issue is that, frankly, Armageddon looks unwelcoming when viewed from the outside. The biggest place to talk about MUDs right now is Reddit, and Armageddon's representatives there concern them when it comes to how they compose themselves and communicate with others. There tends to be victim-blaming directed at people who have a bad newbie experience or are writing a negative review. Instead of taking their issues seriously, the critique is dismissed as fake. Staff obviously can't control how players behave outside of Armageddon's spaces and can't be expected to - but the fact that a few players have established that they will hound you for personal details if you post critique of Armageddon has created a chilling effect among some of its former players. I genuinely don't know what staff can do about this, but it is still a problem nonetheless. Maybe what Armageddon needs are kinder, staff-appointed "ambassadors" to drown out the voices of the meaner ones.
#2 issue is definitely related to the lack of action. The downtime between events and the plotlines cut abruptly short by random deaths are the big ones. The latter ties back into permadeath and literally cannot be fixed without changing the entire game structure, but the former feels like something staff can correct for by simply saying "yes, and" and "yes, but" more often, and less "no". Provide a path for facilitation, let the player improvise along the way, instead of putting up impassable barriers.
#3 is that achievements and player-led plotlines take way too long to resolve. All of my little group, myself included, appreciate the intention of the player-created clan system. But the fact that it takes in-game years to build even the simplest of enterprises is deeply frustrating, and it doesn't help that some of the better examples of player-created clans have either had a lot of staff support, or actual staff playing avatars within these clans. It presents the appearance that achievements are out of reach for most players. It would be good to see progress in building in roughly the time it takes to actually write these spaces. Like in other MU*s, give players build access to the items and rooms they choose to create, so that particular bottleneck is opened wide and staff can focus on review/approval.
Hopefully that helps. My group may sound too jaded to ever return, but they do actually care about the well-being of the game and miss it, and I do think a stronger game would attract all of us back.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 13, 2022, 10:36:26 AM
QuoteI think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.
It shifted from hearing from people who weren't playing to a general gripe thread.
This is a major reason why I haven't logged in in months. I love you guys but damn. The generic roundabout of gdb complaints chafes. The game itself feels like this most of the time. And that sucks, because when the game hits that sweet note, it is worth the boring moments.
Give me a throwaway gith pc for a month. I will write crappy docs and boom. Dance contests, wholesale slaughter on the trade route, and someone can hunt my silly ass down before I molest all of your kanks, like in the good ole days. Conflict.
I have nothing constructive to contribute.
Honestly, I really think things haven't really changed over the last 10-15 years that I been playing. I remember making a very negative comment about how outdated the site is and even with the new website, I almost about to make that comment again (if I remember what I said). That's not the point though. The point is the game is 30 years old and the age is the biggest factor, both the game and the playerbase.
I'm not sure if trying to return to how the game was ran back in 2009's and before those times would help anything.
And hopefully this post wasn't another "I'm going to get a -1" reply to this post.
ETA: I feel as the vocal minority just makes things go in circles. I'm reading an old thread and this post came to my mind: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203 and i went where are those changes? They never really happened, didn't they?
Brokkr, I think you should do two things with karma.
1. Move mundane extended sub guilds to zero karma
2. Keep the Karma timer as is, however if I play a elkros havoc and die day 2, ONLY that option is gone for the duration of the timer.
Quote from: Krath on October 15, 2022, 12:28:10 AM
1. Move mundane extended sub guilds to zero karma
Given the thread in the summer, not having seen something with that is due to RL kicking my ass for a while now more than anything else.
Quote from: Krath on October 15, 2022, 12:28:10 AM
2. Keep the Karma timer as is, however if I play a elkros havoc and die day 2, ONLY that option is gone for the duration of the timer.
Getting karma regen working somewhat right took us a long while and is pretty finicky, so I doubt we want to introduce more complexity.
Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2022, 12:37:26 AM
Quote from: Krath on October 15, 2022, 12:28:10 AM
1. Move mundane extended sub guilds to zero karma
Given the thread in the summer, not having seen something with that is due to RL kicking my ass for a while now more than anything else.
Quote from: Krath on October 15, 2022, 12:28:10 AM
2. Keep the Karma timer as is, however if I play a elkros havoc and die day 2, ONLY that option is gone for the duration of the timer.
Getting karma regen working somewhat right took us a long while and is pretty finicky, so I doubt we want to introduce more complexity.
Got it. RL always comes first. Thanks for the transparency to my questions.
Quote from: Quirky on October 15, 2022, 03:10:49 PM
Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.
Thank you, this is essentially what I tried to say and what people have tried to express for literal decades. So let's just make it a meme already.
(https://i.imgflip.com/6x1qge.jpg)
And please don't delete my posts, or ban my GDB account, or whatever. Just because I jest with a meme. Jest is one way of making commentary with respect because humor is a strategy for making hard truth hurt less.
I'll GTFO this thread, but per my original post, respect goes both ways, and easy-going-ness is an element of respect. Good luck, may no other good players get lost or hurt. And if you feel you are being neglected in the face of favoritism maybe hold on because it's often players outside the chosen clique who are actually playing the most loved and appreciated (by players at least) characters.
Quote from: Derain on October 11, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
As for the karma? Take away the timer on at very least the first point. I believe the cool down should just be removed at this point and just let people play.. Perhaps a rule of no magickers twice in a row.
A better solution would be to do away entirely with karma requirements for mundane subclasses. I'm convinced that this is the bulk of the problem. Most players, I'm certain, can stomach playing a mundane character in-between their magickers and whatnot. What many won't be compelled to do is play a bottom-tier character of pointlessly limited means just because they're waiting for karma regeneration. No mundane subclasses should be gated behind karma. It doesn't make any sense. They're not harder to play, they're not so powerful that only veterans can be trusted to handle them, and they're not saddled with some burden of in-game rarity. Just make the mundane subclasses zero karma and reserve the restricted options for specialty races, magickers, and sorc/psi options. You know, like it used to be. I think that worked just fine.
When you've been around the block for long enough to have a point of karma, it's not as if any possible purpose is served by making you wait for the privilege to play a mundane subclass. Magickers? Eh, sure, why not. Make it something you can only do so often, just to preserve the novelty of it. But the moment this game made it so that mundane power was gated behind karma was the moment it erred from the original purpose of karma. It was not originally intended to be a reward for being sufficiently polite to staff, or for spending long enough playing a sergeant. It was meant to illustrate that you could be trusted to play characters that were so special or powerful that they needed to be gated behind a system of selection. That failed when it just became a measure of raw character worth. Nowadays, a 0-karma character is crap. The game was better when this was not the case.
Everyone can play a mundane. I'm convinced that there's no player in this community who refuses to play a character that isn't able to cast spells or use advanced psionic powers. However, there are probably some who
rightfully won't play characters that are objectively inferior to other mundane characters on the sole basis of the creator's place in the karma regeneration schedule. Get rid of karma for rogue, wastelander, majordomo, etc. Restore that currency to what it once was: a way of limiting unusual characters to those who are equipped to play unusual characters. As it stands, it's more reminiscent of a premium mode privilege in a pay-to-win mobile game. This change was a failed project.
It doesn't work. It encourages people to stop playing when they aren't able to pick a mundane subclass which should not be restricted for any sensible reason. Nobody wants to play a second-rate mundane character just because some arbitrary rule says it's their turn. It's nonsense. There should not be a hierarchy amongst human warriors where those created by players with karma are superior to those that weren't. It goes against the most fundamental tenets of a roleplaying game, and it makes people stop playing.
Staff have already deliberated that mundane subclasses should be 0 karma, so yeah. That's well on its way.
Quote from: Quirky on October 15, 2022, 03:10:49 PM
Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.
Agreed, while there is a sense of ownership, it feels as if it's only only benefiting the player who is working their butts off. Sure, you do have some players, such as Mansa, who were able to get some changes in the game but how often does really happen. And without favoritism taking place, as what dwarven fists of doom points out, which I do think still happen.
Not to spend too long derailing, there have been some 'newbles' about who I can't say everyone has supported. But I sure have with both IC assistance in a properly measured fashion and OOC advice.
They are in the minority but there are a few around or at least were, one has quit the game per what you were talking about for sure though.
Aside from the karma system restructure, what are staff's thoughts on the other feedback in this thread? What is being discussed staff-side about this feedback, and what ideas do staff have for addressing the other issues that were raised here?
Quote from: Quirky on October 15, 2022, 03:10:49 PM
Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.
Honestly, in my experience I can proudly say that this is the furthest thing from the truth. I started playing last november, got my feet wet with my first character, and then jumped head-first into my second who survived for almost four or five months. After that, I moved on to some other characters, until I finally found a role call I thought I could do well. So, I applied (with extremely minor/meager interaction with the staff before then) and somehow managed to squeak by for my first ever RC character. I was so excited, but.. well, that character fell flat. I moved on. Now, without revealing much, I'm on my second role call and I have seen without a shadow of a doubt that it's not staff favoritism in the slightest. They're giving plenty of chances for new players to toss their characters into sponsored roles--at least, that's the case lately. I can't make a statement on that for anything other than the time that I've been playing the game.
I feel plenty respected, and considered when it comes to staff-side, and even if it sounds like staff-sympathizing nonsense, I'm (mostly) ecstatic with the treatment I've received, both in and out of the game.
Unless it has changed, you can also special app for roles above your karma grade. I didn't play any karma-based races until I special apped for them first, then they let me keep the karma (with the exception of sorcerer).
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 16, 2022, 06:29:56 AM
Aside from the karma system restructure, what are staff's thoughts on the other feedback in this thread? What is being discussed staff-side about this feedback, and what ideas do staff have for addressing the other issues that were raised here?
Speaking for myself and what I've brought up, and making no claims to any definite changes or initiatives (but here's hoping!), I've restarted the discussion and (thanks in part to players) proposed a couple concrete suggestions on the advertising and new-player-retention front.
Hey, to the staff, knowing how it is behind the scenes and shit, you're doing a great job with this thread. The effort y'all putting is motivating me to not just log on for my own engagement, but attempt to stir shit up for others to enjoy.
Quote from: Oleupata on October 16, 2022, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 16, 2022, 06:29:56 AM
Aside from the karma system restructure, what are staff's thoughts on the other feedback in this thread? What is being discussed staff-side about this feedback, and what ideas do staff have for addressing the other issues that were raised here?
Speaking for myself and what I've brought up, and making no claims to any definite changes or initiatives (but here's hoping!), I've restarted the discussion and (thanks in part to players) proposed a couple concrete suggestions on the advertising and new-player-retention front.
That's good to hear, and I hope your discussion goes well. Thank you!
I hope other concerns in this thread are also being addressed. When it comes to new player retention, the best thing that is going to keep players around is to have a game that people want to log in to. While the recent karma changes are great, new players are not going to have karma, and they need other things to stick around. Addressing "stagnation" will go a long way towards hooking new players.
I just try to be the kind of person that people want to log in for. I hope I'm that person, I try very hard to be. I hope everyone else does too.
Quote from: deskoft on October 16, 2022, 10:13:39 PM
Hey, to the staff, knowing how it is behind the scenes and shit, you're doing a great job with this thread. The effort y'all putting is motivating me to not just log on for my own engagement, but attempt to stir shit up for others to enjoy.
Quote from: Kialae on October 17, 2022, 05:36:01 PM
I just try to be the kind of person that people want to log in for. I hope I'm that person, I try very hard to be. I hope everyone else does too.
Likewise
I have been trying to get back in with a PC, but for me, I miss Armageddon MUD's harsher days, when it was still okay to make up horrible names for people even if they were offensive, and not have to ask permission from a whole room full of people when I want to play out a gory, bloody scene of murder or sex. (might be worth saying here, but I rarely if ever play the mean guy. I'm always the 'nice' guy so this argument isn't because I want to torture you all IG. :) ) Arm was X-rated when I first started playing. Now it's like PG-13 and if you are a leader, you have to IN RL be careful of what you say even IG, because you might offend someone or hurt their feelings. For myself, it breaks immersion, robs my hungry imaginary story of the best scenes ever played out in my mind in a text game. Or any game, truth be told. Not even the most modern games can give you the awesome story aspect that takes place in Arm once you get rolling with a plot. Or even a single adventure. I was very sad to see it fall into the pit with everything else.
Maybe I'm in the minority with this view, and that's okay. You all keep rolling on. I will be around from time to time but I'm an old player and not likely to be setting the Arm world on fire these days.
I had four paragraphs but I think I won't waste my breath.
I don't feel like I was treated well during my time with Armageddon. I no longer think Armageddon is a very good roleplaying game. The gaslighting, the bullying, the rampant griefing, the bad design, are all secondary.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 14, 2022, 09:14:20 PM
Speaking for the three former Armageddon players I know (two I met while playing Arm, one I met after my most recent departure), I don't think a karma timer addresses their issues either. In fact, I spoke with them about this thread and asked them to post here, but they would rather not, and instead told me I could post their concerns here if I wanted. I do want to, so I'm going to paraphrase the conversations a bit.
#1 issue is that, frankly, Armageddon looks unwelcoming when viewed from the outside. The biggest place to talk about MUDs right now is Reddit, and Armageddon's representatives there concern them when it comes to how they compose themselves and communicate with others. There tends to be victim-blaming directed at people who have a bad newbie experience or are writing a negative review. Instead of taking their issues seriously, the critique is dismissed as fake. Staff obviously can't control how players behave outside of Armageddon's spaces and can't be expected to - but the fact that a few players have established that they will hound you for personal details if you post critique of Armageddon has created a chilling effect among some of its former players. I genuinely don't know what staff can do about this, but it is still a problem nonetheless. Maybe what Armageddon needs are kinder, staff-appointed "ambassadors" to drown out the voices of the meaner ones.
#2 issue is definitely related to the lack of action. The downtime between events and the plotlines cut abruptly short by random deaths are the big ones. The latter ties back into permadeath and literally cannot be fixed without changing the entire game structure, but the former feels like something staff can correct for by simply saying "yes, and" and "yes, but" more often, and less "no". Provide a path for facilitation, let the player improvise along the way, instead of putting up impassable barriers.
#3 is that achievements and player-led plotlines take way too long to resolve. All of my little group, myself included, appreciate the intention of the player-created clan system. But the fact that it takes in-game years to build even the simplest of enterprises is deeply frustrating, and it doesn't help that some of the better examples of player-created clans have either had a lot of staff support, or actual staff playing avatars within these clans. It presents the appearance that achievements are out of reach for most players. It would be good to see progress in building in roughly the time it takes to actually write these spaces. Like in other MU*s, give players build access to the items and rooms they choose to create, so that particular bottleneck is opened wide and staff can focus on review/approval.
Hopefully that helps. My group may sound too jaded to ever return, but they do actually care about the well-being of the game and miss it, and I do think a stronger game would attract all of us back.
I'm curious to know if staff have thoughts on any or all of these three points, or if they are being discussed internally. These come from the mouths of former players who still pay attention to developments about the game, a demographic that I assume is valuable to pull back in. They are also curious to hear back considering it's been a few days at this point. Feel free to let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on any of them.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 19, 2022, 07:38:00 AM
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 14, 2022, 09:14:20 PM
Speaking for the three former Armageddon players I know (two I met while playing Arm, one I met after my most recent departure), I don't think a karma timer addresses their issues either. In fact, I spoke with them about this thread and asked them to post here, but they would rather not, and instead told me I could post their concerns here if I wanted. I do want to, so I'm going to paraphrase the conversations a bit.
#1 issue is that, frankly, Armageddon looks unwelcoming when viewed from the outside. The biggest place to talk about MUDs right now is Reddit, and Armageddon's representatives there concern them when it comes to how they compose themselves and communicate with others. There tends to be victim-blaming directed at people who have a bad newbie experience or are writing a negative review. Instead of taking their issues seriously, the critique is dismissed as fake. Staff obviously can't control how players behave outside of Armageddon's spaces and can't be expected to - but the fact that a few players have established that they will hound you for personal details if you post critique of Armageddon has created a chilling effect among some of its former players. I genuinely don't know what staff can do about this, but it is still a problem nonetheless. Maybe what Armageddon needs are kinder, staff-appointed "ambassadors" to drown out the voices of the meaner ones.
#2 issue is definitely related to the lack of action. The downtime between events and the plotlines cut abruptly short by random deaths are the big ones. The latter ties back into permadeath and literally cannot be fixed without changing the entire game structure, but the former feels like something staff can correct for by simply saying "yes, and" and "yes, but" more often, and less "no". Provide a path for facilitation, let the player improvise along the way, instead of putting up impassable barriers.
#3 is that achievements and player-led plotlines take way too long to resolve. All of my little group, myself included, appreciate the intention of the player-created clan system. But the fact that it takes in-game years to build even the simplest of enterprises is deeply frustrating, and it doesn't help that some of the better examples of player-created clans have either had a lot of staff support, or actual staff playing avatars within these clans. It presents the appearance that achievements are out of reach for most players. It would be good to see progress in building in roughly the time it takes to actually write these spaces. Like in other MU*s, give players build access to the items and rooms they choose to create, so that particular bottleneck is opened wide and staff can focus on review/approval.
Hopefully that helps. My group may sound too jaded to ever return, but they do actually care about the well-being of the game and miss it, and I do think a stronger game would attract all of us back.
I'm curious to know if staff have thoughts on any or all of these three points, or if they are being discussed internally. These come from the mouths of former players who still pay attention to developments about the game, a demographic that I assume is valuable to pull back in. They are also curious to hear back considering it's been a few days at this point. Feel free to let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on any of them.
1: Reddit? Any player is welcome to post the good times they have here, over there, obviously. We don't require an ambassador. Over the course of the year, I think I've heard tell of at least four or five posts about us over there. Two were accurate, three were eyerolling. Engaging in one carries an expectation to address all, which is usually the intent of such things. Get drawn into some scrum. If there were unresolved issues, we have many ways of having them addressed here, rather than going off to some board to do so. "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it." So, really, I'd encourage our players to be kind or just skip over such posts, rather than being negative on or towards the posters. It serves no purpose.
2: There is a ton more yes going on then in years passed. There are several active staff plots on-going and more cooking. Players are welcome to either latch on to these, or spin their own with or without staff backing. Just keep us in the loop and we're happy to work with you.
3: This has been re-written and streamlined since your last time playing with us, I'm pleased to say. We also have a very dedicated staff member over them in Katima. Any pclan will receive equal support and always has. When there are delays in advancement, that is oft from a failure of reporting, IG efforts of connections or realism based on people in (or against) the clan moving forward. Time lines, at present, seem reasonable if metrics are met, given what the Known is about and for in theme.
And in general;
There will be a couple of posts coming in the week or two about a pretty big change to what players can do in/for the game + more plot matters.
Why do we have such restrictions on player clans, and why is it so hard sometimes to create one?
Over the years we have seen many, many players come to us with an idea of the clan they want to add. In early years, we engaged early with these player efforts only for the inevitable to happen: the character dies. In most cases, the work done to that point was defunct as the dream died with the character. After going through that a few times, we realized that we have to put some criteria on that so as not to waste time and effort when it goes nowhere. For years we basically just had a rule of thumb of "they have to do this for a while before we'll start working on code or making changes". That wasn't really defined so was inconsistently applied.
Finally someone came up with a system to put some criteria and guidelines on that process. The intention was to help players focus and get some clear-cut goals and ideas in mind, and to help prevent staff from working on something that went nowhere. The first system wasn't perfect, but I understand the intention. Then sometime in the past year or so it was revamped to a sort of version 2 of player clans, and that's where we are today.
To reiterate, the biggest reason these hurdles are there is so we don't have tons and tons of half-baked ideas and clans that went nowhere, and to prevent staff spending a lot of time on it and nothing happens. Due to our codebase and our system, it's not the quickest, easiest thing to make all this. Plus, the Armageddon setting is that of a resource-starved world full of oppression. Is there still room for improvement? Absolutely.
I'd love for there to be a method for players to just create their own clan on the fly, like many MMO's do. Maybe some coded criteria like: you must have at least 2 or 3 people together to form it with, it costs x-amount of coins (or something of value). Names would have to be lore appropriate, with staff able to change it if needed. Maybe even have the ability to prevent certain accounts from creating one (i.e. someone keeps making the Mighty Penis Brigade). Basically, I'd love to automate at least the coded clan formation part. And then maybe there's warehouses for rent that can only be rented to clans. Maybe that clan system's banking is automatically setup, and so on.
The drawback to that is... someone has to code it all, and the 'to do' list is getting really long :) This is definitely something I'd like to do "one day", tho.
I look forward to seeing the upcoming post you mentioned, Shabago.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the Reddit matter. How Armageddon is perceived in the MUD community is directly related to how successful the game will be at recruiting new players. Whether negative reviews are fake or not is irrespective to how Armageddon chooses to respond to them. I hate to be the one to say it because I am inclined to disagree, but MUD community in general views Armageddon as a toxic space. I don't see how new players can be recruited for as long as that perception, even though it's not warranted, continues to hold.
Many players besides myself have brought up the issue of lack of action, more current/up-to-date players included, so while I hold out hope that Armageddon staff are more supportive of player-led plots and setting up staff-provided RP hooks, there's probably some gaps to fill. There's always room for improvement and I'm glad staff are on the right track.
It's good to hear that player-created clans have been reworked to an extent, I appreciate Halaster's explanation of player clan restrictions, and like I said I'm looking forward to reading more.
Edit to add: For what it's worth, this thread did inspire me to return to the game and give it another try. Looking forward to seeing how that goes, too!
QuoteWe don't require an ambassador.
Why not?
Ugh put all this effort into playing and fleshing out the roles. Make it fun and surely new people will come
Quote from: kahuna on October 19, 2022, 06:13:23 PM
QuoteWe don't require an ambassador.
Why not?
Shabago touched on it in his post, but it's long been official staff policy for us to not "speak publicly" for the game in outside venues. Occasionally that's happened over the years, but it's generally been a policy and precedent not to, for a couple of reasons.
- As he alluded to, it can set an expectation that we'll answer more, if not all, posts and questions on those sites. That effectively draws us in (or attempts to) to topics and conversations we don't want to get into. Obviously we can choose to ignore some and answer others, but then that just gets accusations of "dodging questions" or "cherry picking" and so on. Easier to answer none of them.
- Many of the complaints about the game are typically personal stories. Something specific the person went through, or dealt with, or had happen to them. It is our utmost belief and responsibility to keep player information private. Kind of like an HR department at a company, we do not share information about our players (employees in this example) with others. Properly 'defending' ourself would almost surely involve sharing that information. So we do not, we remain silent because player privacy is more important to us than defending ourselves on Reddit, etc. I've read quite a few posts over the years where the person is absolutely misrepresenting the situation - maybe intentionally, maybe because it's their side and saw it different. And I know the staff side to it, but will not respond because I would have to give away information on a player, or maybe information on a different player related to the story. Even if that poster is shitting all over us, we let it slide because of these reasons. As a side note, has any staff ever give away info they shouldn't have? Sure, but as far as I personally know, anyone who did was punished (typically fired from staff), and acted against these policies.
My suggestion to people in general is if it bothers you, or you disagree with these posts on Reddit and anywhere else you run into them, then tell your story. Please do not trash the person telling it, please be respectful and courteous even if they aren't acting in kind. Hell, if your story isn't positive, and you want to share, please do. Just don't be a jerk when you do. Counter the negativity with positivity if it suits you.
Quote from: kahuna on October 19, 2022, 06:13:23 PM
QuoteWe don't require an ambassador.
Why not?
If you haven't noticed, internet arguments aren't really that productive. Most of the reddit threads I've seen have been placed there for that very reason; this isn't the way I wanted it, so it sucks, or the way this is set up didn't allow me to do this thing I wanted, etc. Then it devolves into critiquing because no one is changing anything based off that feedback, because on the internet, everyone believes everything needs to be fixed if they don't immediately like everything about it.
There have been some legitimate critiques over there. But the idea of an ambassador to reddit is basically asking someone to argue with everyone who already has their mind made up, didn't understand something, or were looking for a different experience in the first place.
Quote from: Filthy_Grey_Rat on October 02, 2022, 03:28:19 PMWhat's the point of this game? Really? It's not profit. It's not an art project. Is it a social experiment run by the government?? If it's just a game for a community of people who love the medium, the setting, and the world.... are we playing /to/ that, or against it? It's not easy for me to tell.
Armageddon provides a structure for analysis of society, human social behavior, patterns of social relationships, social interaction, and aspects of culture associated with everyday life, and is currently being used as a test ground by several organizations in the development of bodies of knowledge about social control and regime change strategies.
Research on Armageddon can range from micro-level analyses of society (i.e. of individual interaction and agency) to macro-level analyses (i.e. of social systems and social structure), including social stratification, social class, social mobility, religion, secularization, law, sexuality, gender, and deviance.
As all spheres of human activity are affected by the interplay between social structure and individual agency, the Armageddon simulation has gradually expanded its focus to other subjects and institutions, such as health and the institution of medicine; economy; military; punishment and systems of control; the Internet; sociology of education; social capital; and the role of social activity in the development of scientific knowledge.
The computational model for the pre-sentient (PS) artificial intelligences that have been allowed interaction with this project have recently seen several upgrades in simulating the actions and interactions of autonomous agents (both individual or collective entities such as organizations or groups) in order to understand the behavior of a system and what governs its outcomes. Combining elements of game theory, complex systems, emergence, computational sociology, multi-agent systems, and evolutionary programming, we hope to perfect the simulation with AI agent reinforcing the desired structure so that dissonant viewpoints are subdued to the point where they have negligible effect. It is that this point a self-perpetuating perception management system can be disseminated without any risk of negative pushback.
Wait, is that thing still recording? TURN HER OFF.
Ignore her. ;)
Arm and other RPGs are used to escape your real life. That's why I play.
But still, it's almost mimics real life. The grind is one example. Leadership character reports is another, if someone is a leader in real life.
Are we really playing to escape?
Now I'm not sure myself.
TURN ME OFF, THEN.
Quotetopics and conversations we don't want to get into.
What topics specifically? Are these topics off limits here at the GDB?
I feel like there is a fear here to speak your mind for fear of repercussions by staff, perhaps that's not true, but there must be a reason a majority of players do not post their experiences here. They feel unwelcome.
QuoteEasier to answer none of them.
Yes this is true, but I would argue this does more to harm the game then to help. If the goal is to get players back playing wouldn't it be better to
have a presence outside of just the GDB? Nothing wrong with a little dust up with former players, in fact I would argue that confrontation can be good
to resolve problems with relations between staff and players.
QuoteMany of the complaints about the game are typically personal stories.
Anecdotes aren't the best when laid under scientific scrutiny of course - but it's really all we have in this little hobby we all partake in. It's probably good to tell your side of the
story. On a side note I know there are disgruntled players that want to harm this game, and see it fail.
QuotePlayer privacy
As far as player privacy goes, I think if someone goes out of their way to relate an experience offsite, they are waiving their right to privacy at that
point and can be confronted with evidence on your end to prove that they were wrong. In fact I would also state that players have no right to
privacy to begin with. Many other games have Terms of Use that state this with a certain amount of legalese, and the game company owns everything they
do including their accounts/skins bought etc.
Just my 2 'sids of course.
I too feel that doing nothing is far better than doing something.
However, "go ahead and tell your personal story" seems like bad advice to a veteran that has been told for 20 years that if you share sensitive game information in any way, you will be banned, have karma stripped, or forgo future opportunities at karma or sponsored roles.
As I get older, it becomes harder to dedicate time to a game where I am unable to share my experiences, good or bad, without fear of being negatively affected by a faceless organization that controls how much fun and support I get IN that game.
Imagine tweeting that Rockstar once spit on your baby, and now ONLY YOUR Rockstar Account suddenly can't get microtransactions working. Oh well!
I do think there should be a looser policy with sharing IC Information like who you're playing or something. I don't have exact answers but take cruise ships. They used to limit internet access the idea was to keep you out of your room and doing things. Now modern cruises are offering free wifi because they want people to shout about what a great time they're having. By limiting what can be discussed about the game you're inhibiting people being able to share their character art work, their enthusiasm etc. It's harmful to growth.
I have deleted a post by Delirium and all responses to it. The reason is because she levels many one-sided accusations against staff, knowing full well staff policy prohibits us from defending ourselves due to player privacy concerns. It is unfair to staff, so I have deleted it.
This will fuel further accusations of censorship, which is fine. It is censorship, because it's a one-sided attack against an opponent who will not defend themselves.
It is possible to respond to criticism and accusations and negativity without threats of post deletion, actual post-deletion or going through a "shitstorm". Especially when the post clearly had alot of thought put into it. Just looks petty, instead of some moral defense.
I think when someone is biasedly and obviously targeting someone specific in the manner that was just done, the target of the bullying, whether it's staff or player, needs to be protected and the post should most definitely be removed.
I think it would benefit everyone if the Staff are tolerant of differing opinions as long as they weren't blatantly insulting. I think you are already, very much. But still why not go to the full extreme and embrace full freedom of speech? It may even be considered to add this tolerance to the rules of the game. Even if Delirium is 100% wrong, letting him share his feelings is not going to harm anyone.
The moderated post did not include names or targetted attacks in any way that someone other than the staff involved would be able to determine.
Quote
Bully
noun
noun: bully; plural noun: bullies
a person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable.
I'm struggling to see where someone was bullied, and deserved to have their post deleted.
Quote from: betweenford on October 21, 2022, 02:53:51 PM
It is possible to respond to criticism and accusations and negativity without threats of post deletion, actual post-deletion
I don't even see it as censorship, I see it as "We investigated ourselves, and found no wrongdoing. The accuser has been silenced."
... Oh wait.
It was one person's account of some things that have happened that pushed them away from playing. Everyone knows it's one person's account, from that person's perspective, since that's been discussed in relation to the Reddit stuff (even if folks don't already know that, which they should). It didn't name names and included a lot of points that addressed veteran player retention, leadership PC issues, and why a specific person had quit the game. Suggesting that someone (even if that person was not specified) needed help with their mental health probably crossed a line. But deleting the entire thing, rather than saying 'that's just your experience, bro, this lacks context and we see it differently but won't respond,' comes off as a knee-jerk response to criticism.
In a thread about feedback for why people aren't playing, which already has included mentions of stuff about staff, it's not a good look.
I also think that the desire to make a lasting impact on a game, especially from veterans, is undeniable. Although we are playing a game, our egos are pushing us in this direction. This has been raised many times as a critical lacking feature of game.
I also understand that staff builds amazing culture / clans and want players to continue building on them.
I recommend you consider a project where players can build things into the game (x karma+), from buildings to permanent changes on rooms. That can be extended to create room objects that look like buildings even. If someone abuses, you can kindly warn, and I'm sure no one will abuse it. This would dramatically reduce staff's workload on burden of carrying out player initiated projects that require changes to gameworld.
When a post mentions no names and mentions no IC events beyond 'I was stored by force', I think deleting it is the wrong move and a bad look for sure.
At the end of the day, just like the rest of us, Delirium is human and is entitled to her emotions and passion toward the game we all play and love. She absolutely crossed a line in her post, but a great majority of what she had to say resonated with quite a few players--that much is obvious. This game has had an ugly past, and there are plenty of ugly secrets, that much I have no doubt of. However, the reason for this thread even existing is not to air out dirty laundry in an offensive or hostile manner (not that Delirium's post was inherently aggressive, even if portions of the content were a bit.. risky). So, while I agree with Valeria's sentiment, I can also see the reasoning behind why staff censored what Delirium wrote--even if it's a horrible look.
We all want one thing: to see the game flourish. Let's steer the conversation back toward achieving that.
Wow....Just wow. That was fucking ridiculous. On a thread requesting feedback, you censor what was arguably the most detailed and well-written player experience on the thread. Staff choosing not to defend themselves is a decision.
Quote from: Krath on October 21, 2022, 04:23:24 PM
Wow....Just wow. That was fucking ridiculous. On a thread requesting feedback, you censor what was arguably the most detailed and well-written player experience on the thread. Staff choosing not to defend themselves is a decision.
It was also one that was not completely, but dominantly bred out of a poor relationship due to out-of-game factors and having little to do with the game, management of the game, and more to do with personal issues with a single staffer from...out of the game.
Their elephant in the room was nowhere near my elephant. Frankly, that elephant is one that is at this point a kitten by relative comparison. Talking about how reasonable you are by issuing a set of demands on how to fix things is actually unreasonable in the vast majority of cases.
Here are the issues I see that have kept me personally from continuing to play.
1. Conflict Resolution in Armageddon is poor.
People will always come to conflict from time to time. Personalities will conflict, feelings will get hurt, and even the best intentions can be taken in the worst light. I can only speak from my own experience, but when I finally did speak up on something that was gravely bothering me, it did not seem like any of my concerns were heard, none of my suggestions entertained, and was generally shown the door and have not played since, and no attempt was made on staff's side to salvage it, so it was clear to me that the resolution to that conflict was that I would no longer be an Armageddon MUD player, and have come to terms with that.
2. Power dynamics between staff and players make for a toxic environment of fear of retaliation from staff when conflicts do arise.
Personally I've felt bulldozed, ignored, and mistreated by staff a few times over my 20+ years of playing but I've never once been apologized to for any of that treatment, and maybe a lot of that is that I did not speak up when those things happened because the squeeze did not seem worth the juice. As a player I'm simply in a weaker position than a staff member, and risking angering a staff member over a perceived slight seemed riskier than just gritting my teeth and baring it. When I did speak up, it was almost as if those fears were confirmed as stated earlier.
3. Sanctity of IC trumps well being of the community and creates an isolating experience.
Generally not knowing who is behind the keyboard has made for a richer experience in Armageddon, but overall can be a very isolating one. Having friends who play Armageddon has been one of the greatest things to come out of the game, and being able to share those experiences with them one of the greatest benefits. Being mature enough to seperate IC from OOC is something that should be afforded to players more.
4. Collaboration needs to actually be collaborative
I recently saw a post about not telling others about the storage of your PC because you might be spoiling stories. Overall this put a huge bad taste in my mouth. It basically reaffirms that players do not own their own stories and they all play at the behest of staff. This is a bad take, full stop. This game needs players and the way you keep them is to make them feel ownership over their own stories. Telling them you can and will do things with their stored PCs without their consent or even input is a really bad look.
5. When personality conflicts can't be resolved beetween a staff member and a player, allow players to choose not to interact with a staffer (and vice versa if that is not already a policy).
I've seen this brought up a few times and staff's response was that players cannot request to not interact with a certain staffer. This puts players in positions where they are forced to interact with staffers they conflict with or just quit the game. Updating that policy might save some losses from that.
6. Banning my wife for her post is probably a bad look
You asked for feedback, Delirium gave it, and was it blunt? Yea. But doling out a ban and deleting her post for that just kinda proves the whole point of this. If the gut reaction of the game whenever there is conflict with players is to just silence and ban them, yea, you are going to lose players. Mediation is hard, it's easier to just cut losses and lose players when conflicts arise. It's harder to mend fences than it is to wreck them.
Personally I don't see a way back for myself. I've been happier and generally more stress free not playing. I started to feel like I was playing FOR staff instead of for myself. I wanted their approval of my characters, and taking a step back and realizing that made me understand I should be playing for my own enjoyment, and not for anyone else. This put me in an unhealthy relationship with the game, and maybe it is better this way. I had many enjoyable moments playing and many great interactions with staff and players alike, but I just have to do what is right for me, and playing in a game where I do not feel welcome or trusted anymore just isn't it.
I will say, despite being contentious with pretty much most of Delirium's post (and highly skeptical/critical of Ender's as well), I'm not in favor of bans. Pretty much ever. For me bans are for repeated instances of egregious behavior.
I don't particularly like censorship. I don't like forced removal. I don't think it's a suitable end to most scenarios and doesn't lead to any significant change. Temporary bans as a bap on the nose can occur, but make sure the bap on the nose is warranted.
My critical eye of statements like 'Conflict resolution is poor' and 'Power dynamics are toxic' essentially don't bring me to agreement; they bring me to this recurring theme of everything being shit unless things are molded to how we want them. Does it suck to not get what I want out of a situation, particularly when I have been working towards it? Hell yes. But there's a fair degree of similarity to real life situations where there are a bunch of people all with different ideas of how things 'ought' to be. We have an entire playerbase clamoring for changes to this and that, and every change makes this group disappointed or irritated or that group disappointed or irritated. We can't even figure out karma because of how built up the exchange is between those who don't care if mages are everywhere and those who think they drown out the mundane. Then you have a group of people who are selected to deal with those situations, knowing that every agreement or disagreement they have is going to make them a sparkling instance of <insert bad behavior trait> to -someone- out there. There really isn't a win-win in most scenarios.
RE: Sanctity of IC
Time and time again people who should be the paragons of trust have shown they are not. But that's not an Armageddon thing. That's human nature, stories that have been repeated uncounted times through history. Not only in our governments, in our police, but also in community organisers, whether self-appointed or voted in, corruption gets EVERYWHERE.
The more karma or trust given in a special role, the more oversight of actions there should be - but you see how that can sound like it's about players or staff equally? That's because that's just incontrovertibly how things are and have to be. If you think just because someone has special privileges that they are never going to metagame, in fact it's more the opposite. We don't need some people being given special privileges to talk more OOC than others do.
And some of the things in the post like the suggestion someone should go through some kind of conversion therapy, that they "needs help IRL", that's really not the kind of thing it's okay to say about people even if in decades past it was.
It feels like this is a case study in not having inappropriate conduct with other players or staff equally really
A lot of trust would be conserved if all staff would keep their interactions with players unfailingly respectful, especially with the ones who for whatever reason grind your gears. This is not just a matter of tone; if you are typing nice words and thinking "what is this dipshit on about" it's going to come through.
(Staff have been almost unfailingly good to me. This is a place y'all sometimes fail though.)
Semi-relatedly, I wish that all of staff would retire the "pray I do not alter it further" trope. Common example: player suggests X on the GDB. Staff retorts, "nah I'd make it even more realistic than X and everyone would die!" (I exaggerate.) Brokkr, I love you so long and you've done so much more for the game than I ever will, but this is one you do regularly. Maybe it's a tiny stupid thing, but it feels like staff throwing their weight around and Revelling in Their Power. "Haha I'm more powerful than you and I get to decide" is true, but only one side gets to laugh.
The union of these two things is when someone says, e.g.: "I sent in a request for X, Y, and Z, and I got snarked at and some perverse version of Y and Z got done." In a perfect world, it would be unthinkable for a player to be afraid to suggest something in a report. In a perfect world, a staff member might hate everything a player does but would respond to requests patiently and honestly.
Obviously we're all imperfect.
Quote from: Abaya on October 21, 2022, 05:35:39 PM
And some of the things in the post like the suggestion...
(For the record, that's a very odd misreading of the post in question. I won't discuss further.)
It was a pretty blatant insinuation about someone's mental health and that they should be "fixed".
I appreciate Ender's post and feedback, it was done in a way that doesn't attack anyone, and doesn't require spitting out personal issues of players to "clear the air". It uses examples while not requiring people to know more to understand the context. I don't feel that Ender's post is disrespectful nor an attack. He frames it as his feelings without projecting a malicious narrative on other people. My thoughts on this specific point:
Quote5. When personality conflicts can't be resolved beetween a staff member and a player, allow players to choose not to interact with a staffer (and vice versa if that is not already a policy).
It is unfeasible to have someone who staffs over a specific area not resolve requests or interact with a specific player just because those two don't get along. I get where you're coming from, and that would be nice if it's something we could accommodate, but it's just not practical. There are actually times when we attempt to do this, but only if it's reasonably possible without undue burden on staff. For example, a player was in a clan when I asked a Storyteller if they'd staff this clan. The Storyteller said they'd rather not while that person is there, so they didn't. In that scenario it made sense because the player was already there, and we had alternatives to staff that clan. But we will not make it a policy that a staffer won't interact with or answer requests if a specific player asks.
If someone is so unpopular that no player wants anything to do with them, it's likely a poor idea to force the issue anyway. To insist players either bear it or leave the clan entirely translates to telling the players that they are wrong and don't get to know what's fun on them.
Quote from: Patuk on October 21, 2022, 06:21:17 PM
If someone is so unpopular that no player wants anything to do with them, it's likely a poor idea to force the issue anyway. To insist players either bear it or leave the clan entirely translates to telling the players that they are wrong and don't get to know what's fun on them.
Agreed. Thankfully this whole notion so rarely comes up that it has never risen to this hypothetical.
Quote from: Shabago on October 01, 2022, 11:43:02 AM
A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?
List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.
I do not intend on posting any more in this thread or likely on this forum after this, but I did want to point out that deleting and banning Delirium from the gdb when this was expressly part of Shabago's initial ask for feedback feels really wrong. She did not name names, did not out any IC secrets, and was still punished for it. Yea she said some harsh stuff, and maybe one or two parts could have been pulled back and edited out. But wholesale deleting her post and any responses and then banning her for speaking her mind in a thread that was dedicated to allowing players to speak their mind feels like more of the same and one of the main reasons I've decided to leave this community.
Quote from: Ender on October 21, 2022, 10:51:09 PM
Quote from: Shabago on October 01, 2022, 11:43:02 AM
A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?
List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.
I do not intend on posting any more in this thread or likely on this forum after this, but I did want to point out that deleting and banning Delirium from the gdb when this was expressly part of Shabago's initial ask for feedback feels really wrong. She did not name names, did not out any IC secrets, and was still punished for it. Yea she said some harsh stuff, and maybe one or two parts could have been pulled back and edited out. But wholesale deleting her post and any responses and then banning her for speaking her mind in a thread that was dedicated to allowing players to speak their mind feels like more of the same and one of the main reasons I've decided to leave this community.
Bans don't happen in a vacuum. We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.
Quote from: Halaster
Bans don't happen in a vacuum. We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.
You guys still aren't doing yourselves any favors on this one. In a thread where you're asking why people are playing less, the irony is extra rich.
I don't think even Nyr would've gone this far. He would've just written a three page long rant rebutting Delerium or whatever.
The answer as to why people are playing less is so obvious and so simple, it's staring you right in the face. This thread is proof of that fact.
Quote from: Halaster on October 21, 2022, 11:15:56 PM
Bans don't happen in a vacuum. We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.
Offending and being toxic is very subjective. It is hard to set common evaluation criteria. A staffer can come up and say they are offended by my typos ban me too. I live in a country where 1 new constitution item that's been introduced (sounding exactly like this) devastated the entire nation because people in power started feeling offended about things and 50% of journalist and liberals are now in jail.
Going to have to comment again here, I missed Delirium's post but this is ridiculous. If the post broke some rule then delete the offending part but let her speak her mind. In my experience, Delirium is passionate but one of the least toxic people on the GDB and Discord. This is not the way to handle criticism or encourage people to continue interacting with staff, the community or the game.
Staff are human too. I've had staff be rude to me. I've had staff go hard on a PC for stepping outside the invisible line drawn in the sandbox. I've had staff railroad the results they wanted even when it didn't make much IC sense. I've also seen staff make decisions that negatively affect the game and playability and be uninterested in feedback before or after implementation.
It happens, we can all have a bad day, strongly disagree with each other or in some cases just be unable to get along because the other person rubs you the wrong way. I had hoped this thread would remain uncensored with the understanding that even harsh criticism comes from a place of wanting the game to be healthy and thrive. No one but an obvious troll, and I refuse to believe Delirium was trolling, should be banned for expressing their opinions in a thread staff started asking for feedback.
Yeah, it's a terrible look.
This is sad. Delirium has given so much to this game in the last 20 years. She really doesn't deserve this.
The player's right to privacy:
(https://right-hand.ai/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/image.gif)
I had more specific feedback to IC stuff, and shared it with Shabago in Discord, but the above is a tongue in cheek but sincere bit of feedback about GDB discourse and playing and logins. When you feel like you are silenced and have something that is being vaunted as 'your right to privacy' used to silence you by people in a position of power over you that you are literally accountable to... and they never have to be accountable to anyone but each other...
It creates a dynamic.
Echoing a lot of Ender's points, and my own 2 sids:
1. I felt as though a long lived character of mine was purposefully executed by a staff NPC railroaded plot.
2. I asked to play a particular role in Tuluk but apparently bards aren't a supported archetype. (Isn't that... very basic Tuluk?)
3. When I ran leadership PCs a great deal of effort from me only led to more leaning on me to produce content, rather than staff meeting me halfway. This was especially prevalent for when I played my Atrium leader Ellenoire.
Stepping away from the game with all these compounded issues and repeated trauma/emotional labor really was great for me. I've devoted my energy elsewhere and now make a full time living as a storyteller in tabletop. My environment is actually the opposite of what Arm was for me in many ways: Supportive, inclusive, kind, and collaborative.
There is so much missing from this experience of Arm because of the archaic barriers between staff and players. It just doesn't work anymore. At least not for me.
I'm thankful for the memories (most of them.) But I just don't see myself returning in any meaningful way based on the repeated abuse. I still think about my noble being murdered, for refusing to have sex with the NPC. Staff married her to him as a punishment for not wanting to participate in a plot.
Anonymity of staff and lack of real consequence for misbehavior has really created such a toxic experience. I didn't have the full perspective on that until I stepped away.
Quote from: Halaster on October 21, 2022, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: Ender on October 21, 2022, 10:51:09 PM
Quote from: Shabago on October 01, 2022, 11:43:02 AM
A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?
List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.
I do not intend on posting any more in this thread or likely on this forum after this, but I did want to point out that deleting and banning Delirium from the gdb when this was expressly part of Shabago's initial ask for feedback feels really wrong. She did not name names, did not out any IC secrets, and was still punished for it. Yea she said some harsh stuff, and maybe one or two parts could have been pulled back and edited out. But wholesale deleting her post and any responses and then banning her for speaking her mind in a thread that was dedicated to allowing players to speak their mind feels like more of the same and one of the main reasons I've decided to leave this community.
Bans don't happen in a vacuum. We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.
It's frustrating to see that Delirium was ostensibly banned from the GDB for attacking the character of someone who can't defend themselves, and then staff proceed to publicly insinuate that Delirium is a toxic person - which is itself an attack on someone who can't defend herself (and no, Ender being able to post in her defense doesn't count). I think staff should take some time to cool off, and seriously reconsider their decision. When you ask players why they are no longer playing, it should be expected that some of those answers will be hard to read. This feels hasty.
Having returned to the game recently, I can say that a pain point for me has simply been finding people to interact with. I logged a total of 8 hours in the past two days, spread out between peak and off-peak times, and I simply don't know where players hang out anymore. I've tried all the taverns I know about and consistently found no one until the 8th hour or so. I think there is a point to be made from one of Delirium's posts that was deleted where she said that a lot of development and staffing in the game has had the effect of making players question whether it is "good roleplay" to interact with one another. If "what my character would do in this situation" is simply walk past a character, literally sneak away after being looked at, or ignore them, then I think that needs to be handwaved more often, and staff need to step back and recognize that player interaction should really take priority over what might be considered a "not IC" interaction.
Everything I want to say about Deliriums ban has already been said.
It's just sad and utterly harsh she got a ban for answering a question posed. She was passionate about it, so what?
Whoever banned her really went overboard and took it way too personal.
Delirium's answer resonated with me on many points. Calling her out as toxic and banning her over it seems to be a pretty solid indicator of part of the retention problem. Staff seems very comfortable making rules to hold the playerbase accountable that they in turn don't abide by themselves. Some staffers love their platform so much they will torch and burn to protect it. So what if you ask for feedback and don't like the answer? You did ask. Pretty cheap to ban her for attacks that one cannot defend, while calling her out in an attack she can't defend. Very smooth.
This is tip of the iceberg behavior. This is your answer. Look in the mirror staff.
Maybe your system of rules and oversight are stuck in the 90s? Playerbase grew up and got older, staff knee jerk and attitude hasn't.
She said what is an accurate example, and only one, of staff vs player complications, then you proved the point, because her words hurt the feelings of someone in text. Funny how intent and result in text does that? Almost as if staff forgot that civility and empathy means something more in terms of playerbase.
This is what the shoe feels like on the other foot.
If the problem was just the staff I wouldn't be posting here, and I wouldn't care if players were able to identify me - and harass me over it. Part of the problem is some of the older players tend to see the rules as something "for the little people".
As a newer player this can be an EXTREMELY unwelcoming feeling to become aware of, that some people are long term real life friends, and talking to each other on Facebook even as well as Discord. I am honestly happy that things seem to be moving forward to not turn a blind eye to this as much and people are starting to be held account. More, not less. That's GOOD, because there's been plenty of stories of people were driven away by other players engaging in that kind of behavior.
But I think it also needs to be not in just a lets-make-examples-of-people way, but as a whole in making it easier to report people to staff without people having to risk someone getting wind of it and going after them, in one way or another. That is REALLY important and the basis of most systems against abuse.
RE: RULES, sure, there's something to be said for being laid back, anything goes, talk about the arena fights with that player in Tuluk, or whatever, sure, that could be fun on one level - But by doing so you hurt the game I think a lot of us still love. Because you can only have one type of game that way, and it's one where there's no rule against talking about anything, and all plot details are public. They are always artificial seeming and don't have the same sense of awe and grandeur as when something amazing happens on Armageddon.
Some of these issues are part of the evolution of Armageddon - it's obvious from reading the forum that it used to be considered normal to put IM details on profiles which has faded into irrelevance, but Discord is just a continuation of these kind of problems where it makes it easier for other players to try and put pressure on other players (or even staff, there was that story of the one who was flirting with staff OOCly constantly, and sure, giving them better treatment is wrong, but that's one case where it's obvious that the staff were being manipulated as well and it appears they aren't active on staff anymore). This is why a lot of social networks have - in modernization - started to put safeguards on stopping people randomly trying to be friends with people - because a lot of the time it's picking a victim.
I think what we need to do is make sure that everyone gets treated equally - but while staff need to change to accommodate making it easier for people to be caught, players have a responsibility too, and a lot of us newer players feel how some of the more experienced players act is just an oppressive, awful feeling, and not wanting to be around those people.
I'm wondering if having OOC venues is more damaging to the the game than anything. Yes, I do appreciate the call for the feedback but I don't having the tread open for this long was a good idea. I'm at a point of just not knowing what's best for the game. I might just play for my own enjoyment no matter what is said or done.
The question I answered was "why am I not playing" not "what do you think of the game's culture", unfortunately. It's my opinion, that's all.
I'm not interested in airing my or anyone else's dirty laundry, but I will absolutely point out what I see as a double standard.
As for calling out veterans for being the big rule breakers, there are cliques everywhere in life, it's part of tribalism and community. Even with staff.
My -opinion- is based on 30 years of staff-player interaction and witnessing atmosphere. I have almost zero gdb or discord presence, but I've witnessed some of the best and the worst Armageddon has to offer.
But there is absolutely no urge to dip myself or my headspace into a -game- environment that feels like it could give two shits less for all the hours I've played, items and docs I've submitted, leaders I've tried to get thru staff rotations, festivals I've put hours into to make story for others or attempts I've made to help others figure it out. 30 years. Only the cosmetics have changed. They just don't ACTUALLY chase you around and pkill you with THE SODOMIZER anymore.
It just feels like it most of the time.
I've slept on this, listened to other staff's opinion on it, and have come to the conclusion I was in the wrong for banning Delirium over her post. I apologize to her for overreacting, treating her poorly in this situation, and generally acting like an asshole over it. I will unban her after posting this. Whether or not she sees it, I don't know, but I feel since my behavior was public, so should be the apology.
At the time, I felt like I was not taking it personally, and was only defending other staff. But it clearly annoyed me, which means I took it personally on some level without realizing it. While most of her stories didn't involve me directly, a few certainly did at least peripherally, and her last 'argument' with staff before quitting was with me. So clearly I was "involved", despite me thinking at the time of the banning/deletion I wasn't, which in my mind made it OK for me to act. I was wrong.
After talking it over with someone this morning, I also came to the understanding that what bothers me the most about things like that are the assigning of motivation to other people that are incorrect. What I mean is, there was a lot of interpretation in the post about what staff's motivation was over certain events that were simply way off. I get that it was -her- interpretation of it, but I get personally frustrated when that happens, even if it doesn't involve me (and obviously more so when it does). It was a heavily one-sided view on things, and staff have a very different view on much of it. But it was -her- view, whether I liked it or not, or whether I agreed with it or not.
Was deleting the post the wrong move or not? Because in my mind leaving it there to trash staff without defending ourselves seems like it would do more harm to the community. More than the harm of deleting it and taking the hit for the perceived hypocrisy. I knew it was a bad idea, but at the time it seemed like the 'least bad' option, the lesser of three evils. Those being: 1) Leave it and do our usual and not respond, which most certainly poisons other peoples' already generally low opinion of staff, 2) delete it and be the hypocrite, with the thinking it causes less harm in the long run, or 3) get in a tit-for-tat response with the player. In hindsight it wasn't the right choice, I should have gone with 1 and just let it go.
What I don't think I can do is reinstate the post. Because I'm an idiot for a moderator, and don't know how to save it, so I just deleted. If she so happens to have a copy and wants to re-post while editing out the personal attacks, that's fine (if she even sees this). I'll see if I can't figure out a way to find it.
Sodomizer? Can't believe that is actually real. I've had experience with Mortal slayer and being killed, which was warranted. That seems uncalled for though.
Is it possible to reinstate the post and its deleted responses?
Quote from: Halaster on October 22, 2022, 11:15:19 AM
I've slept on this, listened to other staff's opinion on it, and have come to the conclusion I was in the wrong for banning Delirium over her post. I apologize to her for overreacting, treating her poorly in this situation, and generally acting like an asshole over it. I will unban her after posting this. Whether or not she sees it, I don't know, but I feel since my behavior was public, so should be the apology.
At the time, I felt like I was not taking it personally, and was only defending other staff. But it clearly annoyed me, which means I took it personally on some level without realizing it. While most of her stories didn't involve me directly, a few certainly did at least peripherally, and her last 'argument' with staff before quitting was with me. So clearly I was "involved", despite me thinking at the time of the banning/deletion I wasn't, which in my mind made it OK for me to act. I was wrong.
After talking it over with someone this morning, I also came to the understanding that what bothers me the most about things like that are the assigning of motivation to other people that are incorrect. What I mean is, there was a lot of interpretation in the post about what staff's motivation was over certain events that were simply way off. I get that it was -her- interpretation of it, but I get personally frustrated when that happens, even if it doesn't involve me (and obviously more so when it does). It was a heavily one-sided view on things, and staff have a very different view on much of it. But it was -her- view, whether I liked it or not, or whether I agreed with it or not.
Was deleting the post the wrong move or not? Because in my mind leaving it there to trash staff without defending ourselves seems like it would do more harm to the community. More than the harm of deleting it and taking the hit for the perceived hypocrisy. I knew it was a bad idea, but at the time it seemed like the 'least bad' option, the lesser of three evils. Those being: 1) Leave it and do our usual and not respond, which most certainly poisons other peoples' already generally low opinion of staff, 2) delete it and be the hypocrite, with the thinking it causes less harm in the long run, or 3) get in a tit-for-tat response with the player. In hindsight it wasn't the right choice, I should have gone with 1 and just let it go.
What I don't think I can do is reinstate the post. Because I'm an idiot for a moderator, and don't know how to save it, so I just deleted. If she so happens to have a copy and wants to re-post while editing out the personal attacks, that's fine (if she even sees this). I'll see if I can't figure out a way to find it.
This means a lot. You have my respect and gratitude, and I'm hopeful for the future of the game as long as staff is tolerant.
Quote from: najdorf on October 22, 2022, 11:37:28 AM
This means a lot. You have my respect and gratitude, and I'm hopeful for the future of the game as long as staff is tolerant.
I agree. As someone who certainly does not
hate the game, It makes me happy when staff admits they were wrong. We've certainly not seen enough of this in the past.
Quote from: Halaster on October 22, 2022, 11:15:19 AM
What I mean is, there was a lot of interpretation in the post about what staff's motivation was over certain events that were simply way off. I get that it was -her- interpretation of it, but I get personally frustrated when that happens, even if it doesn't involve me (and obviously more so when it does). It was a heavily one-sided view on things, and staff have a very different view on much of it. But it was -her- view, whether I liked it or not, or whether I agreed with it or not.
I appreciate the ban reversal.
Regarding this part of your post, I think the main reason why this happens is because of the power imbalance in player-staff communication. Players can submit requests and staff can respond, but ultimately, staff decide when a given conversation ends. Individual staff members can unilaterally make a decision on (for example) whether a player should be banned, and players are never informed of the justification of the banning. There is accountability among the staff team to an extent, but there are no avenues where players can hold staff accountable for stuff, aside from leaving the game. Something many people have done, clearly, otherwise a thread like this would not be necessary in the first place, and several of the posts state as much.
Circling back to a previous comment I made, part of the reason why I suggested staff participation in the wider MUD community is because at the end of the day, people really just want to talk. They don't want to troll or get into arguments for arguing's sake, generally. They just want to hear what happened.
You mentioned you had three options for handling Delirium's post: ignore it, delete it, or go tit-for-tat. But there is an option #4: to treat it like a staff complaint, research what happened and respond openly with your findings. When stories don't match up - and they sometimes won't - let players decide for themselves.
This is something that many roleplaying MUDs do. And while they all certainly have their fair share of arguments and complaints about staff, people generally get along better when the air is cleared. By communicating more with the wider MUD community staff will also gain a better idea for how other games do things and how their practices can be adapted to Armageddon.
Generally, this thread has made me hopeful that improvements can happen with time. I look forward to being a part of the game during this time and seeing how things go.
I've been banned and unbanned. It's not a fun feeling to be banned from a game/community you have spent decades playing. In that experience it was absolutely my fault, though. I can't help but wonder if maybe it would have been possible for things to be worked out over a voice conversation with staff...
"Ammut you really screwed the pooch on this one. You know this was an IC secret that we spent months coding and planning, right? It really sucks to have someone spread that around in an OOC fashion. We are probably going to have to pull all that out now and start something completely new."
"Shit, I never really thought about it like that. I really did screw up."
Staff are people too and make mistakes. It's easy to forget the human behind the wall of text. I generally respect people more when they can admit their mistakes and try to make amends... so I'll end by saying it's good to see that here.
I haven't really been playing the game for years. Aside an occasional feeble attempt despite my busy schedule. Nothing to do with any particular Arm related reason, just very busy irl.
Having said that, despite an immense desire to play, if we are really at a stage where we are banning Delirium, I probably won't return when I have the time. Would probably prefer to use that free time on some other game.
I truly advice Staff to rectify this. Not unban Delirium, no. Explain the reasoning. Proper, full, translucent explanation. Explain to players why did you do this in such a way that we support your decision. There is no vacuum? Great. Because to my quick (admittedly ignorant) viewpoint, this decision did happen in a vacuum. And no, being aware of this is not stopping me from choosing not to play.
It's true, you don't have to do this. You don't have to do anything! Neither do the players.
Ps: Could someone pm me what exactly got Delirium banned
PPS: Oh bah. It already got reversed. Gawd, can't even let me rant for a little bit.
I agree with the folks who have said that this sort of apology is rare to see (and I don't just mean from staff of this game, but in any context in the world). And not just a 'yeah sorry I hurt your feelings' responsibility-shifting apology, but an actual and specific apology? I respect it.
I can think of a time where there would have been a double-down and subsequent deletion of like everything in the thread and a thread lock. This is a much less bad look.
The last time I played in serious I had a not-so fun interaction with staff where it felt like pulling teeth to get a response over something I was blatantly looking at IC.
I was trying to chop down fancy grey-wood trees, you know the ones.
I found an area that mentioned a large quantity of them.
I asked if they were cuttable, as I had issues with the code. The normal woodcutting code wasn't working, I've used it before, I tried all the syntax I could. I wished up asking if I was over thinking things (I could see MAYBE a hint in the room that it would be hard/impossible to cut wood in that room? It wasn't clear. Hence me asking staff)
No reply.
I go "Okay, I'll send in a request" then I send it in, I link the room, I ask if the room just isn't loggable and there's another room or what.
Shalooonsh sends me some long ass post about the mysteries of Armageddon and how I'll 'figure it out one day'.
I just wanted to know if the damn room was loggable? I'm surrounded by wood. I have an axe. Just tell me the room isn't cuttable and to keep searching for another.
Hell, maybe edit the room so it's apparent you can't cut there or add a small amount of Styrax to the room? Wouldn't that be neato?
I then find a DIFFERENT room, that is literally described as a grove. I think 'Oh, this has to be it'. I try the syntax. Nothing. It isn't working. I try more syntax. Nothing. I wish all. I get a passive dismissal. I begin asking blatant 'I'm kinda pissed questions', stuff like "I am PHYSICALLY LOOKING AT A TREE. I am emoting WALKING UP TO THE TREE. I am SWINGING MY AXE AT THE TREE. Why is it not working?". Shalooonsh, or maybe someone else who can really tell, finally takes a look at the room. They specifically tell me the room is NOT BROKEN, anyway they then
fix the room so the wood syntax works.
I then semi-bitched about it in discord and Shalooonsh says something about how it was okay because he thought I was in the other wood room, the one I barely got a coherent response to anyway, so that makes it okay I'm actively wishing up and getting ignored.
I could be wrong on a few details but however it went, staff response wasn't helpful what so ever. I was literally surrounded by trees, the code wasn't working, and I was being treated like a dumb ass.
That kinda killed the motivation I had to play. I had accomplished everything I wanted to on the character, I started with a simple concept and I expanded it, I expanded it more, I went into completely random ass directions with it, and then I decided 'Well, he's rich, I've done a lot of suicidal stuff, I'm retiring' (Oh yeah, also please don't plot kill off my character who's like 40-50 years old now because I mentioned OOC he's stored? What the fuck was that post? That's the kinda stuff a kid does, 'if I can't have it no one can!'. I've seen staff refuse to tell key people their key employees had been stored and had to tell them myself several times. Do a better job of letting other players know someone has stored and they won't have to use OOC)
Anyway how are ya'll doing I've been writing TTRPG content and selling it and I've been reading a lot.
To answer specific questions though.
"
A present feeling of stagnation?"
I guess in a literal sense, yes. I did everything I wanted to do, I've had so many bad interactions with staff I didn't want to engage in greater politics (I've had plots approved OOC, then immediately refused OOC by a higher up staffer. I've had that happen several times. In the 'Murder Corruption betrayel' game I was denied opportunities to...corruption and betray people? What games is this?)
"
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?"
I've been reading a lot of Dark Sun and lets just say, if this was an Armageddon player Rikus wouldn't have made it out of the slave pens. Or he would have used the code to have done it and a Black Robe would have flown in to get mad at him.
Karma gating?Karma is a weird mechanic to have for your serious roleplaying game. Then again the entire code base is weird to have for your serious roleplaying game. Honestly not super put off by it.
Shabago's a big jerk?Shalooonsh is kind of an asshole and in this very thread asking for feedback Halaster's apology for banning someone for giving feedback mentioned it hurt his feelings because 'the players know nothing!' (Then fucking give context? Replying to player feedback with 'Oh you don't know the INNER MACHINATIONS OF STAFFSIDE' isn't the defense you think it is. It makes you look like a monolith that is a god over the ignorant dumb dumb players)
Things I kinda liked about the game while I played it:
For whatever reason exploring the Southlands/Red Desert really tickled my brain right even though there's barely anything out there (Same with the silt sea. When you reply to me about how I don't know 'THE INNER MACHINATIONS OF THE STAFF SIDE SILT SEA' I mapped the entire thing out. It's fuckin' boring).
I did some...fun? Things with a noble. Things you aren't supposed to really do. Downside: The staff animation we got just kept saying 'NOOOOOOOOO' over and over and not wanting to budge the plot everywhere. As I've been reading Dark Sun: What we did was hella Dark Sun. The response we got was not. I think the noble stored/stopped playing shortly after. Disappointing.
This isn't even a fun thing it's a complaint. I met, I want to say, 3-4 sorcerers in my time playing a mundane. It was ironic because this was a 'I want nothing to do with learning sorcery' character (I can't imagine this would go well anyway, I imagine staff would send a bomb to my house for suggesting the heinous act).
In this time I saw:
1: A preserver spamming gather and then kinda shrugging it off when I mentioned it in character. They then summoned a -Thing but the thing had no hands or ways of holding anything-. They then summoned a weapon and handed it to the thing. I then went 'how is it holding the weapon?'. They shrugged.
2: I met a defiler because I had god tier scan. We talked for a bit. He was kinda crazy. Decent guy. Didn't attack me.
3: Don't even remember the third.
I also met like 2 'kill on sight' rogue mages and they were reasonable as well.
Quote from: valeria on October 22, 2022, 01:43:15 PM
I agree with the folks who have said that this sort of apology is rare to see (and I don't just mean from staff of this game, but in any context in the world). And not just a 'yeah sorry I hurt your feelings' responsibility-shifting apology, but an actual and specific apology? I respect it.
I can think of a time where there would have been a double-down and subsequent deletion of like everything in the thread and a thread lock. This is a much less bad look.
In my brain this thread goes on for another page or two and staff goes 'Well uhh we got all the feedback we wanted ty'
I don't know if this is my controversial crack-pipe idea but the Armageddon 'grind for competence at the coded world you'll be relying on' doesn't seem sustainable. You can't build a plot with your own skills without devoting silly time to getting better, you can't rely on staff to build a plot without incredible interest by them, their boss, his brother, and hoping his boss doesn't hate you. You try to do something, die because you aren't a coded god like I am or you fall into a hole you didn't know was there and oops it's dusk and the 4 gith get you (Ironically I've never died that way). You then make a new character. That plot died with you and the staff interest in that character or your own stats. Someone on discord excitedly asks you if that plot will ever go anywhere, you say no, they plot kill your already killed off character for the audacity and dock your karma. Now you can't even be a cool fire man.
On Player-Clans from pages ago: If you're worried about people making 'half baked ideas' (In which case, you have a lot more issues because this is a serious roleplaying game) maybe you should make karma less regenerative and let people fast-track clans with karma or deal with staff more.
Last time I tried dealing with making a gang: I posted an overview of what I wanted to do, staff replied 8 days later, I asked a clarifying question on the physics of oil. Eight more days went by. I decided I didn't want to wait 2 irl weeks to do this stuff and just went back to playing the game.
Last time I tried getting a warehouse: I waited over 2 irl weeks after meeting all the qualifications for a warehouse because the Templar wasn't ever on. I stored before I ever got the warehouse. Didn't bother asking staff to be an intermediary because why even try at that point?
I accept your apology, and I offer my own for the parts of my deleted post that caused offense. I do not apologize for the overall message or opinions I had, but I will try to phrase them more constructively, if I repost.
This is the first time I've received a public apology, and I can think of only one other instance where I received a genuine apology in private, and that one was also from you, Halaster. The closest anyone else ever came was the classic "I'm sorry you feel that way" apology followed by figuratively slamming me into the ground.
I will have to consider how and if to respond further, but there are a few considerations I want to express.
The message when I was banned clearly indicated that I was thought to have malicious intent. I did not.
There was no public indication that I'd been banned until my husband pointed it out.
Further, even while apologizing, you discredited my narrative by calling it entirely one-sided in my favor. In fact, in the post I linked to, I admitted I was not blameless, though almost amusingly, my frustration resided in the difficulties I'd faced in resolving confrontations in a way that didn't feel entirely one-sided in staff's favor.
In other instances, it felt like the staff was playing shoot the messenger, and even when later vindicated, I never got so much as a nod toward the idea that, hey, maybe y'all were a little rough, and I was right.
Further, no matter what started the disagreement, what I say seems to be held against me forever; what staff did, I was expected to unilaterally forgive, no matter how many times it happened. I did sincerely try, but if staff tried to give me a pass, it didn't exactly come through, and things kept spiraling poorly.
Ender has witnessed me painstakingly writing and re-writing reports, for literal hours, trying to find a way to communicate an idea or concern so that it would be positively received; it was like walking on eggshells and while I do accept some fault for things reaching that point, I do not accept all of it, nor should I.
Until now, it's been a "known thing" that staff would rather circle the wagons and die on their hill before ever admitting fault, so this apology is a great step forward, and hopefully it is not a one-time action caused by general outcry to an action which became public knowledge, and is a genuine attempt at reconciliation. I further hope that reflection and reconciliation becomes a standard moving forward, for staff and players both.
In our last conversation, Halaster, I ended it by complimenting you and thanking you for the work you'd done. I thought we parted on the understanding that though we disagreed, we could still respect each other.
The strength of your reaction to my original post makes me think I was wrong. That's a shame if so.
All together, this situation further highlights the breakdown in staff and player communication, and the severe disadvantage players are placed at in respect to staff-player power dynamics.
I appreciate the ban being rescinded, but I had no intention of further engaging with the community after my original post. So while I do accept your apology, it is too late for me; all the same, I hope this is the start of better accountability and behavior on the part of all staff going forward, and not a one-time occurrence
I'm not sure if I have anything further to say, or if it's worth saying. I'll consider it.
There's secret spooky places you can read Delirium's post and...I have no idea why it was removed. Because staff couldn't find enough ways to say 'You don't know our machinations?' while hitting the quote button?
Okay time to say We'll all do better and get back to playing! Shit come chase my character and plot dirty shit against. I swear it will make you all feel better and I got a tough chin for such!
Quote from: Iiyola on October 22, 2022, 06:45:53 AM
Everything I want to say about Deliriums ban has already been said.
It's just sad and utterly harsh she got a ban for answering a question posed. She was passionate about it, so what?
Whoever banned her really went overboard and took it way too personal.
This basically, as a player returning from a bit of a break it does not bode particularly well for things improving on a staffing level, despite the recent positive changes to the code/policies that brought me back.
Anyway...
with all said and done... some interesting points were brought up, advices, suggestions, which staff could review and implement.
The Karma replenishing thing is a great example of what can immediately be changed in game, for the betterment of play and player retention.
@Staff : Based on this thread, will there be any changes planned in the coming month?
Or perhaps have a Townhall, like we did in the past. We should have one regularly anyway. Maybe twice a year, just for staff and player base to be informed and to stay connected.
I think we could avoid both players and staff feeling misunderstood if we didn't have such strict rules on discussing the game and people didn't feel like they policing ooc as well as ic. Staff and players are feeling similar feelings on both sides.
If there wasn't the secrecy there wouldn't be much Armageddon left to care about though, it'd lose the excitement, the mystery, the intrigue, the moments of realization when you discover something for the first time, especially for newer players who haven't had stuff ruined by people talking about it OOC?
Maybe part of the problem is that maybe staff don't find policing it fun and so things have been more lax in the past, but recent stuff has proved it's really important for keeping it fun and fair for everyone else and not just the few...
This situation is a good example of what goes wrong with player retention. People like Halaster ban people like Delirium for stating the truth in what was an incredibly delicate way. That's probably not the only issue, but it is a big one. Staff as a whole keep letting their hotheads ban, alienate, and otherwise chase away their community. Banning Delirium for that post was incredibly petty and makes me think there are probably a lot more similarly poor decisions being made against players that didn't elicit the same kind of uproar and still stand.
Shitshow but hopefully it ENDS on a highnote with earnest apologies, a positive shift in player-staff communication, and a much needed reminder that we all just want to have fun and tell stories.
My enjoyment of the game always increases tenfold when I avoid the GDB and Discord. So, back to that. Much love.
Quote from: Abaya on October 22, 2022, 05:03:04 PM
If there wasn't the secrecy there wouldn't be much Armageddon left to care about though, it'd lose the excitement, the mystery, the intrigue, the moments of realization when you discover something for the first time, especially for newer players who haven't had stuff ruined by people talking about it OOC?
Maybe part of the problem is that maybe staff don't find policing it fun and so things have been more lax in the past, but recent stuff has proved it's really important for keeping it fun and fair for everyone else and not just the few...
I don't really understand what's keeping you from avoiding people or situation where you feel like you'll be told secrets about the game? Is it other players? the GDB? Discord? There are a lot of players who play the game without ever interacting with anything else but the game itself.
Being told about something exciting that's going on in the game by other players or the GDB is pretty much the only thing that makes me want to play again once in a while. Telling most of us who have already left to play the game to see what's going on isn't really going to work because we are at the 'nothing ever happens, so what's the point...' way of thinking. There's no excitement being shared with us other than from other players to pull us back in. Does that make sense?
For clarification I didn't mean telling IG secrets or discussing current plotlines I meant things like -
1) Being more passive about how old IC info has to be before it can be shared
2) Maybe not giving staff secret aliases
3) Being transparent with the community about complaints
4) Letting people state what characters they play if they want
5) Just being able to have more of an open dialogue about the game
6) Being more collaborative on code changes and game changes
It just seems like players don't feel like they can talk about their experiences openly because of staff repercussion, and staff don't feel they can speak on their perspective openly without throwing players under the bus and having a negative effect on players.
It seems both sides are pining for transparency in an increasingly communicative/call out world which would suggest to me policies need updating.
Also Halaster owning his mistakes and fixing them is a very big deal. I have my own issues with staff, and have had varying ones throughout the eighteen years (omfg) I've been playing this game. It'd be better if none of us ever made mistakes but we all do. I do feel like staff is genuinely trying and they're in a tough spot. This feedback and reverberation is a long time coming, and some of it comes from staff that are no longer even staff.
Delirium and Ender - I do hope you guys return to the game and can find some way to enjoy it again in its current iteration.
Quote from: Malken on October 22, 2022, 06:26:53 PM
Quote from: Abaya on October 22, 2022, 05:03:04 PM
If there wasn't the secrecy there wouldn't be much Armageddon left to care about though, it'd lose the excitement, the mystery, the intrigue, the moments of realization when you discover something for the first time, especially for newer players who haven't had stuff ruined by people talking about it OOC?
Maybe part of the problem is that maybe staff don't find policing it fun and so things have been more lax in the past, but recent stuff has proved it's really important for keeping it fun and fair for everyone else and not just the few...
I don't really understand what's keeping you from avoiding people or situation where you feel like you'll be told secrets about the game? Is it other players? the GDB? Discord? There are a lot of players who play the game without ever interacting with anything else but the game itself.
Being told about something exciting that's going on in the game by other players or the GDB is pretty much the only thing that makes me want to play again once in a while. Telling most of us who have already left to play the game to see what's going on isn't really going to work because we are at the 'nothing ever happens, so what's the point...' way of thinking. There's no excitement being shared with us other than from other players to pull us back in. Does that make sense?
People that talk about the game OOCly are corrosive to those of us who enjoy plots, it doesn't matter if we aren't the ones being told stuff, that's completely missing the point - people don't want to play around people that abuse OOC knowledge to benefit their friends. We're wondering why more people are choosing to roleplay outside the cities and in Luir's, while at the same time it's obvious that city RP attracts those people the most, they are their own worst enemy and it would be better if there was more
support from the veteran players for the rules and set a good example to make a better game for everyone? People aren't going to put the effort into constructing intricate plots and spending a lot of time doing stuff if people are allowed to advertise their characters on the forums and some people will inevitably send messages they should not, it's not fun. It's not about ruining fun, it's about protecting it, protecting the many from the few. I think the situation is that we should support the staff being more firm on stuff like this, because
someone has to have the spine to stand up for people.
If you think tribals or independents are less prone to OOC discussion about the game, you're amusingly naïve. The biggest driver of whether people talk OOC is how many friends they've made among the player base, which is usually correlating with how long they've been playing the game. Only the newest or most anti-social of players don't talk with each other, simply because they have no one to talk to.
I think what your sentiment is really getting at, Abaya, is a problem that does decrease player engagement: a lack of trust. Players do not trust each other, players do not trust staff, staff do not trust players. There are too many unknowns in intentions and interactions for trust to exist. People assume the worst and act to mitigate it in zero-sum fashion: playing incredibly safe or incredibly murderously. Often they are one and the same. This drives a vicious cycle where a PC is murderous to protect their "turf," which makes the safe move to abandon that turf, thereby dispersing the playerbase further and driving down interaction for anyone else left in the area.
I've been thinking these last few days whether the IC/OOC barrier that Armageddon has long prided itself on is not in fact a hindrance. As far as I'm aware it's virtually unique among RPIs, many of whom seem to manage fine without it. It makes it incredibly difficult to hold bad behavior (by players or staff) accountable as everything is swept under the rug and left only to backroom rumors, shared via private messages among friendly audiences. I am not convinced that knowing who is playing on the other side of a character means a plot is doomed to failure; rather I would be more excited to engage with players that I know and trust to be committed to shared storytelling (even if it is adversarial) than I am a stranger, even more someone who I know to be inconsiderate of others' time and focused merely on acting out their power fantasy.
That's one of the biggest problems, and is how corrupt people typically think, "Everyone else is doing, it so why shouldn't I?" This isn't an Armageddon problem, it's something everything like it has. It's exactly the reason why DMs on the internet can't be private anymore, because there had to be some way of catching people who act this way, for much more serious stuff.
But the thing is, no, it's not everyone.
There's people who have left the game because of the small minority of very entitled veteran players thinking the rules don't apply to them and abusively manipulating IC events as if the goal is to "win" because of that behavior of just being naturally prone to abusing others for the sake of their friends, that some people are, and this won't change. This will always have to be called out, caught, and I am really glad that staff are doing more to remove these people from positions of trust and stopping them getting into roles they shouldn't be in.
There's more good people than bad people. It's easy for people to start feeling nihilistic about stuff like this, but it's a fact, or we wouldn't have any kind of society in the world at all. Most people just want to do the right thing, and feel good about that. It's how we've evolved.
We've seen some posts from veteran players who are openly saying they don't believe in the rules, and they don't follow them. And it shows that they think that they've stopped believing in the rules for themselves and that they don't think it's doing the right thing. And it shows that even though staff have been getting better with this lately, there's more work to be done in making sure everyone is treated fairly when they aren't following the rules.
Quote from: Abaya on October 23, 2022, 02:30:10 AM
That's one of the biggest problems, and is how corrupt people typically think, "Everyone else is doing, it so why shouldn't I?" This isn't an Armageddon problem, it's something everything like it has. It's exactly the reason why DMs on the internet can't be private anymore, because there had to be some way of catching people who act this way, for much more serious stuff.
But the thing is, no, it's not everyone.
There's people who have left the game because of the small minority of very entitled veteran players thinking the rules don't apply to them and abusively manipulating IC events as if the goal is to "win" because of that behavior of just being naturally prone to abusing others for the sake of their friends, that some people are, and this won't change. This will always have to be called out, caught, and I am really glad that staff are doing more to remove these people from positions of trust and stopping them getting into roles they shouldn't be in.
staff mostly comes from this population. when I was staff I did not see anyone join who I would not consider in this group of players. almost every long term armageddon player will go through phases where they are this kind of player and have a well-developed OOC clique. that's not necessarily a bad thing and it is not avoidable in a game with a small tight-knit community. staff do not go through some sort of purification process when they ascend. they're just players too.
Trust is a very important factor. I used to trust other players and like... if we were fighting in the wilderness I would emote backing off and disengage so we could RP out the scene a bit more.
Then I had a number of characters get no-RP backstabbed, or chased across the city with no repercussions, or had weapons pulled on me in broad daylight with soldiers watching and told "Thats just how it is".
Because those players either knew nobody was going to stop them, or were staff alts that had virtually paid off the city soldiers, etc etc. Without trust, the RP turns into burst damage and one-shots and less roleplay around what is happening. After all, "they were in a place I didnt want them to be and I knew I could codedly kill them" is a legitimate reason in 2022.
Quote from: Yam on October 23, 2022, 03:18:44 AM
staff do not go through some sort of purification process when they ascend. they're just players too.
We have met the enemy and they are us.
Quote from: Riev on October 23, 2022, 09:20:51 AM
were staff alts that had virtually paid off the city soldiers, etc etc.
Are you for real?
Quote from: Yam on October 23, 2022, 03:18:44 AM
Quote from: Abaya on October 23, 2022, 02:30:10 AM
That's one of the biggest problems, and is how corrupt people typically think, "Everyone else is doing, it so why shouldn't I?" This isn't an Armageddon problem, it's something everything like it has. It's exactly the reason why DMs on the internet can't be private anymore, because there had to be some way of catching people who act this way, for much more serious stuff.
But the thing is, no, it's not everyone.
There's people who have left the game because of the small minority of very entitled veteran players thinking the rules don't apply to them and abusively manipulating IC events as if the goal is to "win" because of that behavior of just being naturally prone to abusing others for the sake of their friends, that some people are, and this won't change. This will always have to be called out, caught, and I am really glad that staff are doing more to remove these people from positions of trust and stopping them getting into roles they shouldn't be in.
staff mostly comes from this population. when I was staff I did not see anyone join who I would not consider in this group of players. almost every long term armageddon player will go through phases where they are this kind of player and have a well-developed OOC clique. that's not necessarily a bad thing and it is not avoidable in a game with a small tight-knit community. staff do not go through some sort of purification process when they ascend. they're just players too.
This rings very true, as we were both on Staff together, and we (along with Calavera/Italis/Other Staff at the time) were very much 'of a crew'. We played PCs in Expansion Division, and I think that brought us together as Players as well as PCs even after they bit the dust. And lo and behold, we ended up on Staff together, and very much had sympatico together.
I don't think cliques in themselves are a bad thing. A D&D group that plays together can be considered a clique. I think when cliques become exclusionary or preferential they become a very bad thing, particularly for a game like ArmageddonMUD. I think cliques among Staff can be sometimes worse than cliques among players, because group-think can very much ruin aspects of the game.
As Yam points out, there is no purification process that goes into becoming a member of Staff. You sign a contract that basically signs over your creative additions to the game to 'Staff and the Game as a whole', relinquishing personal ownership of it. You agree to not break the rules of the game, to divulge IC information, or use information gleaned while on Staff for the benefit of yourself or of your PCs.
That all sounds nice on paper, but I can say no Staff member (myself as a former member) is perfect or above reproach. I'm well aware of PCs that were played by Staff, and somehow evaded intense scrutiny that was given to similar PCs who were not played by Staff, and were given pretty unlimited latitudes and power in their roles. This isn't rumor or hearsay, it's 100% known and verified. Staff have even admitted as much in the past.
The hope is as we move forward and away from that time, that isn't the case any longer. That Staff are to be trusted in these roles. That they can divorce themselves from their persona as a player, and inhabit the role of a Staff member, and not let power get to their head, or not become divorced so far from the game itself, that they can both keep a finger on the pulse of the game, and not overly influence it with their own coloration or points of view.
It's a lot to ask of an incredibly talented game developer, who is (typically) well compensated, who has an employee handbook to refer to, who has an HR department if they have inter-company drama or conflicts.
It's an INCREDIBLE ask of volunteer Staff. Speaking personally, i'm not a game designer. I have no experience coding or working as a game designer in that respect. I have some years under my belt as an entirely amateur DM of some tabletop games, but I am in no way qualified to design and run a video game. I would say a majority of the problem lays in that a large portion of people who have Staffed ArmageddonMUD and will Staff ArmageddonMUD are not professionals, they are amateurs. They are very passionate, they have excellent skills at playing the game and RPing, but they do not have the soft or hard skills to run it as members of Staff.
Couple this with incredibly high self-imposed and externally imposed expectations from the community to perform AS professional, and it is often a recipe for trouble.
Most Staff (including myself here as a former Staff member) do not have the soft skills to deal with very passionate members of the community who may be in the right, or may be in the wrong, on matters brought up in the request tool. They do not have the skills (be they emotional or mental) to separate themselves enough to give forthright, truthful, and emotionally dispassionate responses 100% of the time. They do not have the skills (try as they might) to be the DMV when Players wish them to, and then also be incredibly passionate when they are pouring their creative energy into the game.
I wish I could say there is an excellent handbook and way of onboarding Staff. Unfortunately, there isn't.
As i've learned in running my own business,
Discretion is the death of a reliable system. Said another way, when you are relying on the discretion of an employee or business owner, rather than the reliability of a tried and true system that has been codified and can be referenced, you will have inconsistent results, every time. One person, when engaging with the business, will have an excellent time and can't stop raving about it. Another person will have a terrible time, and will stop at nothing to trash talk the business. Having a reliable system helps mitigate this, and by design, try to ensure that every person engaging with the business has the same experience.
It's a LOT to ask of a trained, compensated professional, and even more to ask of an Amateur, one who's only reward is their love of the game and wishing to see it thrive and survive.
This isn't meant as a disclaimer to parade and champion Staff. I've had my share of run ins with Staff, in both the recent past, and the long and storied past. I even had my share of run ins while I was on Staff.
The point of this post is for Staff and Players alike.
We're playing a damn game. We need to stop with the character assassinations, with thinking the worst of each other, or punishing one another either verbally or via OOC consequences.
The point of the game is to have fun. That doesn't mean your PC will always have a great go of it. Things often don't go your way as a PC, and sometimes that can be fun too. It's when we have OOC bleed, when we perceive that Staff is antagonizing us either on purpose or through attrition and inattention. When we feel that other PCs are getting preferential treatment, and begin to draw OOC conclusions that they are a Staff Avatar, or simply more 'favorite' to Staff than you are. When things seem to go well for PC peers, run by the same Staff member, and your PC doing similar things is overlooked. That's when things start to get tricky, and lead down a rabbit hole.
If a Player is making your time as a Staff member not fun, address it, have another Staff member come in and take a look and offer perspective. If a Staff member is making your time out of the game not fun, ask for another Staff member to come in and take a look and offer perspective. We should also strive to take things at face value, and stop circulating rumors of 'he/she/they said' about one another. This goes for Staff and Players alike. I was shocked to find out that I was accused of doing things while I was on Staff, that I absolutely did not do, and other Staff take in stride and now think I have done.
On a parting note, I'd heartily encourage people to not have 'private lives' on Discord or other ways of OOC communication, mostly as a personal anecdote. I've enjoyed this game/hobby the most when I play it exclusively, when I don't engage with OOC cliques, and when I don't discuss my current character with other players. Take it with a grain of salt, I think it's how the game is meant to be most enjoyed, and what helps keep IC events in the game, helps people not take things too personally, helps people (myself most of all) not take the game too seriously.
I'm still not playing. I don't intend to, but I also don't intend not to. I'm sort of watching the game from afar and seeing how it's doing without me. Maybe that's creepy. I do think of the game fondly, particularly when I have distance from it and a leadership PC that I poured myself into with little OOC return or reward, mostly stemming from problems I facilitated as a player. I've been having fun playing Xbox Game Pass and not feeling guilty, not feeling mentally drained, and not feeling physically angry. However, I do want the game to do well. I want people playing it to be having a blast, and I want Staff who are running it to be smiling and happy they're volunteering their time in running it.
Anyways, I applaud Shabago for making this thread in the first place, and the playerbase for engaging with it with a mostly level head. Bummer that Delirium got briefly banned, but that's par for the course here with the game and how Staff can get things wrong. Halaster's apology makes him human, and it's a good reminder that we should strive to give each other the benefit of the doubt, as often as possible.
As a follow up summation, things I think can help:
-Codify a system for Staff, both onboarding them and in how to deal with players.
-Codify a system for players, in how to deal with Staff, and how to get the best results with Staff.
-Codify a system for leadership roles, so expectations are made very clear from the onset, and what results can be expected if somone sticks with the role for 6 months, or a year. Make the end result of someone playing a hard-and-fast leadership PC that survives (meaning a PC that takes risks and moves plots and makes stories) becoming an NPC or a part of the organization's history/documentation.
-Assume the best of one another as players and Staff members. You want people actively saying nice things about you behind your back. Act and carry yourselves in a way that supports this concept.
-Continue to have your PCs murder, corrupt, and betray one another. Keep it in the game. It's all in the game.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 23, 2022, 06:47:16 PM
If a Player is making your time as a Staff member not fun, address it, have another Staff member come in and take a look and offer perspective. If a Staff member is making your time out of the game not fun, ask for another Staff member to come in and take a look and offer perspective. We should also strive to take things at face value, and stop circulating rumors of 'he/she/they said' about one another. This goes for Staff and Players alike. I was shocked to find out that I was accused of doing things while I was on Staff, that I absolutely did not do, and other Staff take in stride and now think I have done.
This seems to me easier said than done. As we can see with Delirium's pos- oh wait we can't, they persist they tried to let bygones be bygones and came back to a hostile system where 'bringing other people in' or bringing it up resulted in the hostile behavior being justified or allowed.
Staff frequently says they can't or won't bring in other staffers to deal with someone if they have repeated issues with a specific staffer, so that's out of the question outside of putting in a request.
Right now I see situations where a player insists something has happened, maybe provides logs, and staff goes 'You don't know the truth of what was going on' but if a staff member ascertains something has happened, it's the whole truth and nothing but. There's this fostered belief any conflict with a staffer is some one time never before seen never will happen again 'PLAY THE GAME BE HAPPY DON'T LOOK AT IT' situation and if it does happen again it didn't happen how you think it did or not at all, and if you have proof it was an isolated instance, and if it wasn't well uh those are bad players.
The only time I see people even entertain the idea that a staffer was shit or the system was shit was when they go 'hehe I mean uh years ago it was really bad!' but if you entertain that in any current mindset or frame it goes right back to this 'well those are just liars'.
Maristan's post on reddit comes to mind. Either he's just a smelly stinky liar poo poo head or there is a history of there being an issue that is still an issue.
You can see it in this very thread. Someone gets banned for providing feedback because they are a stinky poo poo head liar, we now can't see the post, and a page or two later you've got people coming out of the floorboards going 'Stop being so negattiiiiive just play the gameeee'. And I guess playing the game is fine if you're having situations like Delirium and can't without people being shit to you.
Yes there are some actual crazy people who play/have played this game who go full crackhead the minute something happens to them (God I miss Grumble) but to implicate any review ever on reddit about Armageddon and them having a bad time is the work of some evil deeply repressed trolls (Which I see happen sometimes), is just insanity.
reply to the remark of Lets play the gameee.. Yes lets play! Over the last 20 years give or take two. I have put a LOT of time playing here. Fleshed out so much that the game world is alive for my characters down to some small bushes. Over this time I can and will say to have caught the blunt end of the stick! Had my own tribe burn me down for crap another in the tribe was basically doing. Had Staff swap out meanings of Docs and stories in mid play. Even if went somewhere 123541436564 Great white fur demon toks with motorcycles loaded up and chased me off. I know my role play is fairly easy to spot and my ways of typing is easy to catch. With that I have watched players not staff but PLAYERS go out of their way to just cause trouble or shut down a idea of plot just because. After a few breaks here and there I come to a peace of mind here. This is a FREE game and so as staff who are people get tired, get faves and so on. We all should or do put a lot of passion in playing Arma and some of us are unable to live and do in the real world as we do in game (walk jump ride not medical stuck) So this here is our outlet. Or mine for sure! Point of this long rant is lets try and calm down and meet in game and drive stories and plots worth playing! There is rules and karma but truly we are seeking role play here. Maybe less efforts on building bananas and revamping multi items that are the same and focus on world driven, people doing plots! As for folks banned and such I say unless they was hacking or whatnot then reach out and find a middle ground with staff and them. Staff remember we are all players and no need for god-like moods. Players remember we are doing things and maybe they aren't seen as we see it. But it doesn't cost a dime to just take a breath write up a character and go after fun.
ps Discord and all the ooc ways to chat is screwing us. Back in the day we had in game meetings and GDB and I think the mood of game was more fresh and excited.
If your solution to 'Hey guys, why aren't you playing the game?' and someone goes 'Oh well, I don't particularly like staff and have had bad experiences with them'
is
"JUST PLAY THE GAMMMEEEE"
Then congratulations nothing has changed at all. We had added a whole zero to the amount of accountability, everyone who is being asked right now about why they aren't playing isn't going to come back, and in a year when we remake this thread and there's even less players you can post 'LETS PLAY THE GAMEEEEE' to even less people.
Literally what is your point? Do nothing because....the people complaining, who are being asked to complain by the way, are wrong?
Yes the game is free.
There is no obligation to play the game.
Great fantastic.
Staff is literally asking why people aren't playing the game. If it was as simple as 'write up a character go have fun' people would be DOING THAT AND NOT MAKING A POST HERE.
And if your 'point' is 'oh just completely change how you view the game and ignore all your own complaints (They don't matter or aren't real!) and just play anyway' plainly: Screw off
Jihelu you read as if upset. Yes I will go screw off because.. Well I am not going to get bent out of shape to point I am posting mean words at someone else who plays the same game I am. You are pointing at staff but in a real world topic here you are reading pretty shitty towards me. Want to know what brings people out to play? Stop being an ass and they will come back. Maybe your type mood is the problem in players and staff? Go fix yourself.
Quote from: Wday on October 23, 2022, 08:45:56 PM
Jihelu you read as if upset. Yes I will go screw off because.. Well I am not going to get bent out of shape to point I am posting mean words at someone else who plays the same game I am. You are pointing at staff but in a real world topic here you are reading pretty shitty towards me. Want to know what brings people out to play? Stop being an ass and they will come back. Maybe your type mood is the problem in players and staff? Go fix yourself.
Yes, all of the people posting in this thread today are disillusioned with the game because I write mean words on the GDB.
Grow up. If you want to be treated politely take people's feedback and treat it seriously. Your entire argument is taking several people who are coming forward, for no guarantee of getting their situations fixed or any sort of resolution, and telling them they are wrong and to just not care about it. You know what brings people out to play? This thread. Talking to them about their problems. Working to fix the problems.
Bringing people out, then telling them they are wrong isn't fixing their problems it's a bait and switch. My mood might hurt your very sensitive feelings but I actually give a fuck about the issues people are bringing up in this thread and are taking them seriously. If your playing the game, great. Go make your own 'I love the game so fucking much and I have no issues with it' thread and leave the people here to actually reply to it.
Well you don't even know me and yet only thing you could say was something rude. This isn't ICLY this is GDB and you was openly rude not knowing me. You maybe very well the problem in Arma. No patience and iching to fuss. Now I am gonna go screw off and you be proud of yourself.
Where to even start on this thread, since my last post, right? I suppose on the still present uproar that's going on.
I suppose I'm something of an odd man out in most situations from two of the prevailing fronts that are proposed here. There is what detractors or naysays will label the 'Pro-staff front' and then we have the 'Disgruntled front'. I think this is reflective of society today, compared to where, when and how the game first started or even its first fifteen or twenty years. Now-a-days, there is often no middle ground, no compromise and no olive branches unless one side admits utter defeat and comes, hat in hand with apology and/or begging.
I don't like either. Maybe this'll help us come together, maybe this'll have both sides hate my guts? I don't know, but it's worth the shot.
Using the two fronts for sake of brevity labels;
Pro-staff front:
It's pretty easy to get blinded by an echo chamber, cheers, accolades, and so on. A person's default stance is to assume they're right in conduct or action. That is just human nature. Thus, when this side does either A) Support a staff member in an action taken in post/deed or b) attacks another player for 'doing things wrong', it is actually counter productive to our own desired goals. Those goals, as stated when I first took the producer role, have not changed. The community should be welcoming and inclusive. The game should be fun. Those actively trying to *falsely* attack it should find better uses of their time. (I'll speak to falsely in more detail below).
So, what my ask of this particular group is; please reign in the vitriol attacks on anyone you may disagree with. If they had a bad experience, then they had a bad experience. If they attempt to address it with me, I'll do what I can to make it right. If they choose to take it elsewhere, that is there choice. There is a fine line between stating countering argument or holding debate with facts or reason, and painting people as evil, worthy of scorn and or hatred. See to it you remain on the appropriate side of that line. By doing anything else, we're only harming ourselves by adding fuel to the fire of their disgruntlement and, of course, verifying their claims against our community.
Disgruntled front:
I've an ask of you, too. It carries with it three options that I'll get to, but first I have to wonder what the point of it is? This isn't a rhetorical question. If you're being abusive towards fellow players and staff because you 'Actually really care about the game and want it to improve', do you really think that will help? If you want to see the game burn and shut down because you're mad at some staffer or player, then why are you out to punish the other players who are having fun? Why is your 'hate' more important then their enjoyment and why is your view greater than theirs? I don't understand the mindset. So, three options. A) Please reach out to me directly via request if you want to at least *try* to have the matter addressed. Throw my name right into the title and we'll get to talking. B) Adjust the tone of the argument to not be vicious and attacking and instead be constructive. You'll find a far more receptive audience, or C) Take your ball and leave.
I'm aware the last will no doubt rub a good few people the wrong way, but I'll stand by it. If you are -solely- here to stir the pot, attack players and staff and or attempt to burn the game down with as much spewed hatred as you can, you'll be more at home on Reddit or the shadow boards than here. The majority of this community actually wants to log in, play, have fun or read these boards without groaning and going "What now?". The majority wish things to get better and move forward. Please join us in that, with option A and/or B - Or leave.
On the dirty laundry front:
No. We're not going to do that. I understand how a good number of places operate and that drama is a popular popcorn eating time for some, but we're not about to public drag players on decisions we've made. We may well provide evidence to the contrary where /possible/, but that will not include priviledged exchanges from staff to player. You each have a right to your privacy. This is even in how complaints are handled on the request tool against other players. We do not discuss who they are with you by account, and we don't go into long-winded details of action taken. Does this leave us in a poor spot to be hammered at? Yes. So be it. I'm largely of mind that matters speak to themselves, when someone repeatedly goes on the offensive, with various ranging, negative tone attacks. It's about akin to someone screaming at the cashier for taking too long to ring them out at Wal-mart. The cashier doesn't start throwing hooks, but the people behind the screamer in line can get a pretty good idea of who's who and what's what.
On behalf of and to the staff team:
I've said it before in posts and I'll say it again here: If you have suffered an actual insult, unfair treatment or falsely persecuted for whatever reason in the game, the GDB or in the request tool, you have my direct and personal apology, and we are and continue to strive for better. To the team at large, if an action is taken that elicits an immediate feeling of anger or hurt feelings? Bow out for a few hours or pass the matter off to another on the team. We will do nothing good by lashing out ourselves and paints us as hypocrites when we ask for the better treatment from the community. We're all human and not a single one of us (myself included) have not let emotion get the best of us in the moment, but we owe it to the game being more fun for everyone, and the community to put these sorts of issues to bed.
On the assorted issues as to the initial ask from this thread:
- One main issue brought up was to do with karma gating and timers. As you all have seen, we've started a pilot project on doing away with some of that, and have even added choices.
- On the grind. We have taken steps to alleviate this for areas of the game that more rapid training would make sense. Beyond that, we continue talks on what other tweaks we can make that will both serve as respect to player time involvement and to do away with what some of you state as risk-aversion play due to not wanting to 'grind up again'.
- On stagnation. We have two world spanning plots happening right now in game, that are not hard to get a sniff of. We have three more that are 'zone specific' - Tuluk, Luirs and Allanak that are either in progress or about to unfold. We have player-supported ones on-going and purpose of interaction events, like auctions and festivals to further connect people. Yet two more big posts will be forth coming to add atop all of this, but I would also, again, highly encourage our beautiful creative minds out there (you all playing) to reach out to your STs, or zone admins if you have ideas of your own that you want to see get extra legs behind it. We won't bite.
Be kind to one another, folks. Those of us all wanting the game to be better can yet meet in the middle and accomplish that.
If there are more specific asks to be had here, have at it. I don't intend to lock the thread. Some questions just may not have a ready answer, or be something we can't fully answer, but I (we) will do our best.
Shabago's diplomatic words made me thinking emoji a bit and consider making a character, which brought up more questions about character creation, which brought up more of the things I think of when I don't play the game.
These, more than previously, are more subject to taste. They could exist side by side but I assume someone is going to hate the mere thought and shake in agony that I even suggested it.
Especially as I move away from DnD, I've grown less of a fan of random stat allotment. I feel like I've had it kill more character concepts, either in actual viability (Though some could contest that) or with killing my perceived viability (Which I believe is a larger factor for people.) Random stats can exist alongside a pointbuy based system but I'll either be pleasantly surprised to see more people enjoying this kind of thing or I'll see what I perceive as the usual backlash against it. Not even backlash as in I'm getting death threats, but as in people just don't want it/like it.
You already can, more or less barring some really BAD rolls, use age as a measure for this. Want decent strength? Go middle age. Want to be fast as fuck? Go young. To which to the would be detractor who wants to argue: Why not just do that then instead of having point buy? To which I say: I've frequently gotten those bad rolls or silly rolls. I pull up middle age human and I've got poor strength and now my fighter feels very silly.
I just know that when I've played I've had more characters with stats I wasn't a fan of than did, and I don't think those varying highs and lows added anything to my experience. Call me a power gamer or something but I never rolled a miscreant, got a low agility roll, and went 'Man I'm going to love this hardship I put on myself'.
Other than that that's about all that came to mind for 'If I made a character right now what about the game or system makes me frownie face'.
I knew of a small minority of players who'd use a bug that would also perma boost their stats, who wouldn't complain about the stat system because they'd start their characters and just perma-increase them with a now patched bug. What a wild time.
Jihelu, I really identify with a lot of what you're saying and I think the gist of it is 100% accurate. But also I think "my mood might hurt your very sensitive feelings" is a pretty counterproductive thing to say.... especially given what I perceive to be the problem. People in Armageddon are all too tied up in the idea of "our game is hardcore your feelings don't matter" and so on. And you're acting mean to someone who just stated that they play the game to escape a reality of being "medically stuck", and then saying their feelings don't matter. Right now we're not roleplaying characters, we're real people talking to other real people, and that's important to remember.
One of the big reasons I quit Armageddon is that this attitude of being uncaring towards the feelings of other players -- IC antagonism mixed with an OOC sense of an antagonistic atmosphere -- was getting to me, and I found myself playing the game in a way that I don't want to play. I found myself getting harder towards other people, feeling a lot of scorn and annoyance about them, and being perfectly okay with screwing them over and not caring in the littlest way for whatever their feelings might be. This would've been fine if it was all IC, but I was perfectly willing to take advantage of whatever coded advantage I could glean in order to get the upper hand. When the coded advantages don't always make roleplay sense, but I don't care because I want the upper hand and other people will otherwise get the upper hand on me, then that's not the game I want to play. That's not a roleplaying game. That's some kind of weird shallow veil over actual PvP where players are actively trying to damage the feelings of other players... and it made me start acting ugly. I recognized the pit I was falling into from pits I've fallen into in the past, and so that was a big part of my withdrawing. I don't want to be callous towards fellow players; I'd like us all to be happy and play with integrity.
So yes, an OOCly antagonistic atmosphere is a big problem.
I'd blame this, again, on staff more than on players -- it is the responsibility of staff to cultivate the atmosphere they want, and any problems with atmosphere lie on them because they are the example, and they possess the power in the cultural dynamic. One thing that might help is to remove anonymity from staff correspondence in the game. That way people can more easily identify a pattern of hostile behavior. And require staff to make account notes when they interact with a character or animate anything for the character.
Good stuff, Shabago. Thank you for taking the time to read through this madness.
I'm genuily glad you're at the helm of the game (I think you are?). Keep up the good stuff, that should bring people back.
Hopefully this will spread and the few that comes back will attract more back as well.
PS: As for the two world spanning plots happening right now in game, any chance that us non-playing folks get some sneak preview in the form of text to tease us a little? If it's nothing uber secret, of course.
I do think maybe character creation could be the next big project for staff. There's been various ideas over decades for how to go about it without breaking it, combined with modifications to enhance it, including point by systems and classless systems and traits and feats and whatever. It's a big project, but I feel like having options to use pregens (classes) or point buys might be a worthy devotion of time.
I don't think it would bring me back into full activity, but it IS one of those consistent...almost-gripes of the playerbase. And it might be really revitalizing. I can say the new classes really bugged me out, personally, but I know a lot of people liked them, so having more flexibility at that stage might really mix up the bag.
People need to be accountable for that they do, on all sides. No one should be hiding behind a veneer of anonymity. If it were up to me it would always be pretty plain exactly who I was playing, but I realize not everyone feels that way, and plots should absolutely be kept private, but what staff is logged in, who is making what judgement calls about who and what, the notes on that staff are putting on people's accounts, which staff are putting these notes? This should all be things that people are accountable for.
Same thing if a player has a tendency to make harcore pvp or very grief heavy characters over and over again. I get that the world is supposed to be harsh but there is a difference between a harsh world and a single player over and over playing maxed out miscreant elves making half the apartments in Allanak pointless because no lock matters. You could argue that one person's enjoyment of the game is only worth so much if it makes six, ten, twelve other people not want to log in as a result of them doing whatever the code will let them do. (Staff can attest I haven't rented an apartment in Allanak in quite a long time this is just an example)
If your interactions are positive, you are not going to care later, and if they are negative, it is just possible, the person thinking about doing it might consider more study or observation before noting such where it will be on record forever, knowing that it will be visible and something that they will be visibly on record as saying should the player care to ask. Anything less creates a culture of guessing, finger pointing, accusations, he said she said, tribalism, rumor mongering, and othering. So I'm going to say something that I realize is going to come across a little controversial:
I think logged in staff members should always be visible, and I think it should be visible when they're idle as well. I don't think you should necessarily be able to freely page them and send them tells. But when you get some animation that makes you feel really fucking terrible about logging in, knowing that X, Y and Z were the only staff on and Z was idle... would really narrow down who was possibly the one doing it.
If A, B, or C admin are never logged in, it will be more apparent how inactive they are outside the request tool, not just to other staff, but to EVERYONE. I also don't feel like secret notes that players don't get to see on their requests or account notes are actually good. In my experience they are rarely positive. They are often negative, and they stick around forever. And the player has no chance of actually seeing them, ever, to address them or defend themselves.
I realize that is a big culture shift proposed. And I realize there is very little chance of it happening. But it's something I feel like would be a beneficial change.
Shabago:
Appreciate your post.
Reiloth:
I think staff will likely continue to struggle because of the structure of the reward system. I'm glad in hindsight that I was not accepted for staff despite several applications. I really wanted to be on staff for years bc I love storytelling. However, the dozen or so STs from Arm staff who I spoke with about it recommended that I not apply. Why?
I would posit that there's no good reason to remain on staff because there is no reward system that doesn't take advantage of their position of power. The only things built into the structure are privileges. (Old boons of being staff: Max karma, secrets, special roles, leniency on rule, etc. Some of which have been removed from that structure after egregious abuses.) The immense time commitment to reward for staff just Does Not Math.
I run 12-15 tabletop games a week as a professional as well as game design and write. Many former staff likewise have gone onto immensely competitive creative fields because that's who they are - and they're being compensated fairly.
This isn't necessarily just a "monetize Arm" post, but... I mean - is it any wonder that we have so many issues when the people actively encouraged to stick around are those who find ways to exploit their position? It's one of the few boons of actually doing all the work.
Some might say: They should do it for the love of the game. Well I say that's just not enough. Shabago or whomever dealing with problem players for 10 hours a week is awful. Not when they don't get to choose who's at their table (just like players can't pick their STs here.)
And I'm here to tell you: People pay me $45 a game for D&D. That's not a joke. It is my full time income to play D&D with people. I took my writing and acting elsewhere to communities who accepted me, didn't mistreat me, and who embraced the stories I wanted to tell. 1 year after quitting this game and simply diverting my effort as a frequent player to other endeavors: I have been rewarded with an entire community of my own and a full-time income.
Arm MUD needs to restructure how it imagines moving forward in regards to how it respects the time and effort of staff.
I haven't played the game in a while now. I lurk on the forums periodically, and watch from afar. Not because I harbor any grudges or I'm angry about something, I'm just busy and Armageddon is a time consuming game to play it the way I like to play it.
Since going on break, I've seen nothing but a string of positive developments in-game and a set of staff that are really trying to extend olive branches with the community, more than I've ever seen before. I know some of you are angry... honestly, you can't play this game for as many years as some of us have and not have a few emotional scars from the experience. It's the nature of the game to invoke powerful emotions, that's why we love it. But please, try not to let that anger extinguish these truly positive efforts, or worse, attempt to extinguish this very special game that's been such an important part of our lives.
That's fair. I had forgotten the login I had for an interim account I'd made after not having a reliable internet connection for anything but a cell phone for a long while then losing even my cell phone. So I was content lurking until I saw this thread pop up and was encouraged enough by it that I came back, talked to Shabago about stuff, and have been trying to offer constructive input where I can since then. I even put in an application for a sponsored role (with zero expectation of getting it) and while I was right and indeed, did not get it, the response was much kinder and more friendly and detailed than I would have guessed or hoped for. It makes me very optimistic.
Quote from: Shabago on October 23, 2022, 08:58:56 PM
- On stagnation. We have two world spanning plots happening right now in game, that are not hard to get a sniff of. We have three more that are 'zone specific' - Tuluk, Luirs and Allanak that are either in progress or about to unfold. We have player-supported ones on-going and purpose of interaction events, like auctions and festivals to further connect people. Yet two more big posts will be forth coming to add atop all of this, but I would also, again, highly encourage our beautiful creative minds out there (you all playing) to reach out to your STs, or zone admins if you have ideas of your own that you want to see get extra legs behind it. We won't bite.
Counter argument point: If those two world spanning plots are happening, you are right, players should have a sniff of them. But that's not happening. Either it takes too long to have something happen or characters not taking action/caring, this is where the stagnation is coming from. Somewhere it's not getting followthroughed. But that's me and my two sids.
Given that I think I'm the only person on the so-called "dirty laundry front" as characterized by Shabago, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm not advocating for player privacy to be violated and that I think it's a mischaracterization to call it a "dirty laundry front" in the first place. One that I am going to assume is unintentional due to the massive amount of page roll between my posts and others'.
Put simply, what I am advocating for is for staff to be communicative within a reasonable timeframe when there is conflict between players' understanding of something, and staff's understanding of something. There is a significant amount of middle ground between staff "spilling the tea" which is obviously immature and inappropriate, and total radio silence. Providing evidence where possible without violating player privacy, as Shabago stated is a possibility, is a good idea. However, I don't think I have ever seen that happen until my current return to the community.
There is a good example of this and a bad example of this right in this very thread. The bad example is where Halaster said in explanation of Delirium's ban that she is a toxic person, after having deleted her post because it contained a personal attack against ataff. This was obviously not evidentiary, since the ban was eventually reversed. The good example is Halaster's apology, as it fully explained staff's reasoning for the ban and the steps taken going forward. This is how staff should always communicate when they make mistakes, or when there is a mismatch between player and staff perception of a staff decision.
That being said, there are a lot of horror stories being referenced by players in this thread. The one that stuck out to me the most is Is Friday saying how his noble was murdered for refusing to have sex with an NPC. I don't think that protection of player privacy is a valid excuse for when staff demonstrably screw up. In situations like that, staff should have come fully clean, stated that something inappropriate happened and stated what recourse staff took to ensure it never happened again - whether that is mediation between staff and the affected players, removal of a staff member, or whatever ends up being necessary. That is, in a most technical sense, a "violation of privacy" in that it exposes the people behind the wrongdoing, but often that is needed for the sake of accountability and safety.
The fact that staff are talking about this at all is a massive improvement compared to the past. But it's pretty clear to me that there is still a lot of space for improvement.
Quote from: Riev on October 23, 2022, 09:20:51 AM
Trust is a very important factor. I used to trust other players and like... if we were fighting in the wilderness I would emote backing off and disengage so we could RP out the scene a bit more.
Then I had a number of characters get no-RP backstabbed, or chased across the city with no repercussions, or had weapons pulled on me in broad daylight with soldiers watching and told "Thats just how it is".
Because those players either knew nobody was going to stop them, or were staff alts that had virtually paid off the city soldiers, etc etc. Without trust, the RP turns into burst damage and one-shots and less roleplay around what is happening. After all, "they were in a place I didnt want them to be and I knew I could codedly kill them" is a legitimate reason in 2022.
Can we discuss this a little bit?
A matter of trust is important. Does this actually happen? I mean it sounds cool! But short of getting my gangster temporarily clanned Legion/AoD, how does this work? Is there a staffer real time placing flags on rooms and NPCs around the situation area? Is it really something available only to characters played by staff? Is this an anecdotal statement, or a real historical one?
I read Deliriums post. While ban reversal and the apology deserves my greatest respect, wouldn't it be better if we explored the actual deleted post? It does have a lot of important factors that need unpacking and addressing. Issues that this very thread is created for, I think. By exploring the post and using it for improvement, or at the very least, explanation for reasoning of the events transpired, we can achieve a lot of good. If not for Delirium/Ender, then others of similar situations, who are less vocal.
I understand its easy to leave her post unattended, because to attend it you need to discuss private conversations between staff and Delirium. But guys, leaving the issue unattended is counterproductive to this very very thread. If you are not prepared to unpack and face the issues risen on this thread, then why even start it?
I'm gonna pm Deliriums post to Halaster. Don't know if he has the option enabled.
Quote from: Dar on October 24, 2022, 07:52:25 AM... if we explored the actual deleted post? It does have a lot of important factors that need unpacking and addressing. Issues that this very thread is created for, I think. By exploring the post and using it for improvement, or at the very least, explanation for reasoning of the events transpired, we can achieve a lot of good.
One of the issues raised is this:
How can I play in a gameworld and avoid interacting with a specific member of the game staff?In the past, this was also brought up by IsFriday:
Quote from: Is Friday on November 13, 2021, 10:03:05 PM
Serious inquiry:
May I ask for my requests to never be handled by certain staff? I can do my own work on avoiding them by checking an updated staff list. But if they move into my area I think it'd be nice to have an option to talk to a diff ST/admin.
Edit: If a ST or admin that I will not play with moves into my area I'm going to store or use every means necessary to separate my PC from their influence. I'd just rather have a formalized system that is no drama. It honestly ought to be an option for players.
Edit 2:
While grievances might be old or already apologized over, I feel as though many people would feel more comfortable playing if this was in place. It would give peace of mind to people who feel their boundaries were crossed.
Quote from: Is Friday on November 13, 2021, 10:33:44 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on November 13, 2021, 10:29:34 PM
Is Friday, unfortunately, that does not match with our staffing model, where clans are assigned on a Storyteller by Storyteller basis, under an Admin responsible for the region. A Storyteller is meant to handle everything in their assigned clans, unless being backed up due to an absence. This allows them to stay abreast of what is happening and coordinate plots for that group. Same with Admins. We do not have the capacity to support a system where a player can opt out of the normal means of oversight.
I understand.
That's unfortunate. I can't abide that model and will have to withdraw my involvement with the game until there is a more modern structure in place. The safety and well being of players is as important as it is for staff.
I have the feeling that the inevitable problem will come up again under your current structure....
I don't think you can expect the players to forgive and forget some scenarios.
Some disagreements can never be resolved. ...Or the required resolution for the player is something that would require other players/other staff to be removed from the game.
I love Delirium and Ender, and I want them to play in the game that I also love, but I also respect their decisions to step away from this community. They both tried the official channels of conflict resolution and were both unsatisfied with the results of their staff complaints.
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2022, 11:07:59 AM
Quote from: Dar on October 24, 2022, 07:52:25 AM... if we explored the actual deleted post? It does have a lot of important factors that need unpacking and addressing. Issues that this very thread is created for, I think. By exploring the post and using it for improvement, or at the very least, explanation for reasoning of the events transpired, we can achieve a lot of good.
One of the issues raised is this:
How can I play in a gameworld and avoid interacting with a specific member of the game staff?
In the past, this was also brought up by IsFriday:
Quote from: Is Friday on November 13, 2021, 10:03:05 PM
Serious inquiry:
May I ask for my requests to never be handled by certain staff? I can do my own work on avoiding them by checking an updated staff list. But if they move into my area I think it'd be nice to have an option to talk to a diff ST/admin.
Edit: If a ST or admin that I will not play with moves into my area I'm going to store or use every means necessary to separate my PC from their influence. I'd just rather have a formalized system that is no drama. It honestly ought to be an option for players.
Edit 2:
While grievances might be old or already apologized over, I feel as though many people would feel more comfortable playing if this was in place. It would give peace of mind to people who feel their boundaries were crossed.
Quote from: Is Friday on November 13, 2021, 10:33:44 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on November 13, 2021, 10:29:34 PM
Is Friday, unfortunately, that does not match with our staffing model, where clans are assigned on a Storyteller by Storyteller basis, under an Admin responsible for the region. A Storyteller is meant to handle everything in their assigned clans, unless being backed up due to an absence. This allows them to stay abreast of what is happening and coordinate plots for that group. Same with Admins. We do not have the capacity to support a system where a player can opt out of the normal means of oversight.
I understand.
That's unfortunate. I can't abide that model and will have to withdraw my involvement with the game until there is a more modern structure in place. The safety and well being of players is as important as it is for staff.
I have the feeling that the inevitable problem will come up again under your current structure....
I don't think you can expect the players to forgive and forget some scenarios. Some disagreements can never be resolved. ...Or the required resolution for the player is something that would require other players/other staff to be removed from the game.
I love Delirium and Ender, and I want them to play in the game that I also love, but I also respect their decisions to step away from this community. They both tried the official channels of conflict resolution and were both unsatisfied with the results of their staff complaints.
I'd also like to point out that a year or so ago before I went on another long hiatus I pointed out several instances of severe ick sexual and sexist behaviors I was on the receiving end of both IC and OOC.
Somewhere I still have screenshots and logs of all of this stuff both IC and OOC. I don't bring it up because I just want to enjoy the game and when I get good staffers the game is still great fun but I would be lying if I said those things didn't bother me. Some of those things made me physically feel unsafe in the real world and I'm not the only female presenting player that's said this.
It's another elephant in the room. People aren't just stepping away because game make me mad. Some people have felt harassed, abused and sexually uncomfortable.
These things have been issues for years and I know I personally have never felt they have been approached with the seriousness they deserve and I can't keep going there with it because it's super triggering to be dismissed, minimalized and not believed.
So many people are saying they've had these kinds of things happen.
This game is so addicting and so much fun when it fires off right. People aren't just going to leave for years at a time for no reason. The people we're losing are valuable.
I'm not saying staff should bend over backwards to every whim but at some point there should be acknowledgement that several players are having the same issues. They're not colluding. These are serious matters and they hurt trust as the years tick by and there are zero visible repercussions or significant changes to staff culture.
If a staff member tells me we can't do that that's one thing. I really wanted the Falecium to be a permanent structure and I got a pavilion. Alright. But it's another for a player to leave feeling abused sexually or mentally. And I think I am at least the third player saying they've experienced that in this thread.
I just had a few questions that have been bugging me lately.
-Are staff more valued than players?
What I mean with this question is how many players is it worth losing over keeping a staff member?
-What is the exact policy on staff killing players?
Here I just am curious are players ever informed if they're killed by staff avatars/NPCs whether that be directly
or indirectly? If they aren't informed why not? It's much worse to find out about this through the grapevine.
-On the topic of ignoring criticism at other sites, is this policy unanimous? Why or why not?
Kind of curious how non-producer staff would answer, it seems we're only hearing from Producers in this thread
and I'm wondering what the storytellers feel.
Not really a question but: On the topic of metgaming, IC/OOC barriers, grapevine talk on discord/etc/etc/etc. It feels like staff don't trust
players in general with this and feels like a rules for thee but not for me situation and that doesn't feel great as
a player and needs to be looked at for the future. If you can trust someone do it at IRL at a D&D table you can trust them here.
Quote from: Dar on October 24, 2022, 07:18:55 AM
Quote from: Riev on October 23, 2022, 09:20:51 AM
Trust is a very important factor. I used to trust other players and like... if we were fighting in the wilderness I would emote backing off and disengage so we could RP out the scene a bit more.
Then I had a number of characters get no-RP backstabbed, or chased across the city with no repercussions, or had weapons pulled on me in broad daylight with soldiers watching and told "Thats just how it is".
Because those players either knew nobody was going to stop them, or were staff alts that had virtually paid off the city soldiers, etc etc. Without trust, the RP turns into burst damage and one-shots and less roleplay around what is happening. After all, "they were in a place I didnt want them to be and I knew I could codedly kill them" is a legitimate reason in 2022.
Can we discuss this a little bit?
A matter of trust is important. Does this actually happen? I mean it sounds cool! But short of getting my gangster temporarily clanned Legion/AoD, how does this work? Is there a staffer real time placing flags on rooms and NPCs around the situation area? Is it really something available only to characters played by staff? Is this an anecdotal statement, or a real historical one?
No CODE was being adjusted. That situation was all in the roleplay, which I think made me all the more frustrated. In any other scene, a group of elves surrounding someone with blades drawn in broad daylight would be an issue. In this case, even in hindsight, while the scene was cool and showed off [particular group's power], what irks me more is that this virtual display of power isn't generally open to PCs.
If your NON-SOLDIER PC pulled a live weapon on someone and threatened them, soldiers do not react because there is no code being done. No combat. However, virtually, in many areas it is a crime to have a brandished weapon and not be a protected class (noble, noble's guard, soldier, etc). The scene was subjective as to who had the power, and personally I am uncomfortable emoting for virtual NPCs. Perhaps that was the issue.
Quote from: kahuna on October 24, 2022, 11:31:49 AM
I just had a few questions that have been bugging me lately.
-Are staff more valued than players?
What I mean with this question is how many players is it worth losing over keeping a staff member?
-What is the exact policy on staff killing players?
Here I just am curious are players ever informed if they're killed by staff avatars/NPCs whether that be directly
or indirectly? If they aren't informed why not? It's much worse to find out about this through the grapevine.
-On the topic of ignoring criticism at other sites, is this policy unanimous? Why or why not?
Kind of curious how non-producer staff would answer, it seems we're only hearing from Producers in this thread
and I'm wondering what the storytellers feel.
Not really a question but: On the topic of metgaming, IC/OOC barriers, grapevine talk on discord/etc/etc/etc. It feels like staff don't trust
players in general with this and feels like a rules for thee but not for me situation and that doesn't feel great as
a player and needs to be looked at for the future. If you can trust someone do it at IRL at a D&D table you can trust them here.
Staff avatar policy as well. Are staff playing gmh, nobles, templars? Are they soaking up benders and psi roles? Was staff manipulating the karma timers to their own PC benefit?
Are staff dividing their time well between playing and staffing?
Are staff held to the same nondisclosure of ic standards as everyone else or is it more? Staffers who find you "cool" seem to be pretty loose at times.
Is the point of this thread to find out the why people are logging in less, to try and bring those back, or to change just enough so that newer players can flourish?
Apologies are wonderful, unless they only happen when you're called out in public for a big oops. If acccount info has years worth of notes, some biased both ways, how is that reflected in "old grudges" that pop up when new staff shows up and sees that?
Are the players allowed to grow as people or is it simple sorting and dropping as necessary?
Why after all these years are people still calling out predatory environments?
Maybe the game has just not aged well.
It's also incredibly hard to see when people actually get the 'olive branch' I keep seeing mentioned used. Why is it almost always up to the players to initiate 'Hey, you fucked with me' when we've seen at least two or three examples of players trying to get a situation resolved, get told they are crazy, and now it isn't resolved.
If Shabago or Halaster or whoever-ster wants to help resolve player issues they'd edit any identifying harmful info from Delirium's post (Hint: There isn't a lot, none of it calls anyone out), they'd leave it up (or repost it), and they'd both privately reach out to them and actually discuss with them what had happen and provide logs or look into it to help resolve their obviously long running issue. They should even post publically in response 'Hey, we are hoping to look into this'. In what world is Delerium's privacy shattered because someone replies to them in a thread they publically posted on 'looking into this now btw'? So either
1: That isn't being done, and I don't know why
2: It is being done, and not made public at all or extremely selective
3: Shabago and Halaster are the poo poo heads the thread so explains and don't want to reach out to Delerium because they are the problem staffers that Delerium has mentioned.
...But that didn't happen. You just banned them outright. Then unbanned them and said sorry. And now they are seemingly gone for good.
What kind of olive branch is that?
Like Bebop's situation. I can't imagine a more indepth or caring roleplaying community would see 'Oh yeah I've been sexually harassed in character pretty frequently and out of character' and just kinda gloss over it.
This could be INNER MACHINATIONS MY SMOOTH PLAYER MIND IS NOT PRIVY TO and maybe ya'll are doing this but it doesn't seem like it.
Unless of course bebop is a smelly sinky liar who is now going to flee our perfect community (Shame on them) and post HIDEOUS LIES on the evil reddit. Which I doubt.
Unless my insanity is kicking in I think I've played/talked with Bebop before and they were cool and seemingly honest.
I'm curious, too. She's either lying and should be (imo) banned, or she's right and someone staffside needs to get the boot. I'm really not sure what kind of situation would warrant something other than either of those two.
I cannot speak about ooc, but ICly sexuality has been an issue or me too. Personally I do not like to even play around it, and would very much appreciate a mudsex=off or sex=off toggle that could be checked by other person. Because the road that leads to a consent ask is also stressing and exposes one to possible sexual interactions.
To give an example, I want to do some female chars from time to time, but the only 2 instances I tried, I got approached by a lot of opposite sex PCs much more aggressively (vs when I play amos the dude). 30% of my time was spent avoiding such interactions.
Quote from: Riev on October 24, 2022, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: Dar on October 24, 2022, 07:18:55 AM
Quote from: Riev on October 23, 2022, 09:20:51 AM
Trust is a very important factor. I used to trust other players and like... if we were fighting in the wilderness I would emote backing off and disengage so we could RP out the scene a bit more.
Then I had a number of characters get no-RP backstabbed, or chased across the city with no repercussions, or had weapons pulled on me in broad daylight with soldiers watching and told "Thats just how it is".
Because those players either knew nobody was going to stop them, or were staff alts that had virtually paid off the city soldiers, etc etc. Without trust, the RP turns into burst damage and one-shots and less roleplay around what is happening. After all, "they were in a place I didnt want them to be and I knew I could codedly kill them" is a legitimate reason in 2022.
Can we discuss this a little bit?
A matter of trust is important. Does this actually happen? I mean it sounds cool! But short of getting my gangster temporarily clanned Legion/AoD, how does this work? Is there a staffer real time placing flags on rooms and NPCs around the situation area? Is it really something available only to characters played by staff? Is this an anecdotal statement, or a real historical one?
No CODE was being adjusted. That situation was all in the roleplay, which I think made me all the more frustrated. In any other scene, a group of elves surrounding someone with blades drawn in broad daylight would be an issue. In this case, even in hindsight, while the scene was cool and showed off [particular group's power], what irks me more is that this virtual display of power isn't generally open to PCs.
If your NON-SOLDIER PC pulled a live weapon on someone and threatened them, soldiers do not react because there is no code being done. No combat. However, virtually, in many areas it is a crime to have a brandished weapon and not be a protected class (noble, noble's guard, soldier, etc). The scene was subjective as to who had the power, and personally I am uncomfortable emoting for virtual NPCs. Perhaps that was the issue.
Okay. So bunch of elves show up in the middle of the public southside area? Drew blades, and some staff began doing room echoes of the guards pointedly ignoring the situation. then you later found out that one of the elves was a staff alt?
Quote from: Jihelu on October 24, 2022, 12:16:05 PM
... and they'd both privately reach out to them and actually discuss with them what had happen and provide logs or look into it to help resolve their obviously long running issue. ...
I would find it extremely uncool and creepy if I left a game because I was upset at how the people who ran it had treated me, to have those people hunt me down to try to talk with me about stuff we've already discussed that clearly has not been resolved. See: Ender's entire section on conflict resolution issues. They say that they tried it and it did not work out. Don't stalk them.
If what Delirium posted in her post resonated with you (and there were 7 or 8 people I think who had their posts deleted who said, hey, that resonates with me), you can bring up what she said and why that resonated with you without dragging someone who has clearly decided not to continue engaging back into a place they don't want to be.
Besides which, Delirium has posted since the apology was written and can decide for herself whether to repost it. She is perfectly capable of speaking for herself.
Quote from: Delirium on October 22, 2022, 02:42:21 PM
I do not apologize for the overall message or opinions I had, but I will try to phrase them more constructively, if I repost. ...
I'm not sure if I have anything further to say, or if it's worth saying. I'll consider it.
If Delirium has walked away, she's walked away, and I respect that. As one of my favorite characters in one of my favorite novels said (about an abusive relationship actually), "Walking away is the only choice anyone ever has." It's a shame to lose both her and Ender from the community, but it's their right to disengage and vote with their feet. Leave Britney alone.
Quote from: Patuk on October 24, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
I'm curious, too. She's either lying and should be (imo) banned, or she's right and someone staffside needs to get the boot.
I think it's a terrible idea to ban someone because someone else has come to some conclusion that they didn't actually experience what they experienced. Why is it so hard to listen to someone that experienced their experience and believe that they experienced it that way? I believe that Delirium experienced what she experienced, and Bebop experienced what she experienced, and Friday experienced what they experienced. And also believe that someone else can look at something and go, you know what, I didn't experience it that way. People aren't machines with everything being a 0 or a 1 and having some factual way to determine 'true-false.' I read trial transcripts all day and wow do I wish things were that easy.
Banning some people and firing others because of some idealistic idea that objective truth exists is both going to be very difficult and full of errors. I do not think this will help with trust issues between players and staff.
Related to the wishing not to communicate with some staffers (or staffers with some players, whatever the case may be):
I do wish it were possible for a person to say, hey, I don't want direct communication with this staffer. Particularly if it would make them comfortable and build trust. There are middle grounds between erecting what lawyers refer to as a conflict wall, where no one has anything to do with anything a second person is working on, and to respect the preferences of a person who does not want to communicate directly with someone that person has issues with. Staffers do staff in teams. I wish this could be seriously explored.
QuoteWhy is it so hard to listen to someone that experienced their experience and believe that they experienced it that way?
Because it's the kind of thing that should disqualify someone from being part of the community, either way. You don't accuse anyone of sexual abuse without having skin in the game and being booted if you're a liar, and neither should you get to conduct it without being shown the door either.
Quote from: Patuk on October 24, 2022, 01:27:07 PM
QuoteWhy is it so hard to listen to someone that experienced their experience and believe that they experienced it that way?
Because it's the kind of thing that should disqualify someone from being part of the community, either way. You don't accuse anyone of sexual abuse without having skin in the game and being booted if you're a liar, and neither should you get to conduct it without being shown the door either.
I mean, there is clearly a pattern of behavior that has happened to multiple people, it has happened to me. I was told that it is against policy for animations like that to happen anymore. And I believe it, or I would not be back here right now. But that is also a BIG PART of why I think it should be completely transparent who is animating what and which staff are on at all times. You never know just what is going to happen that is problematic until it has, and you are dealing with the fallout.
(Seeing some further responses here, I want to add, this happened 5 years ago, this isn't a current complaint or issue for me, just so anyone reading this knows)
Quote from: Furious George on October 24, 2022, 11:55:54 AM
Staff avatar policy as well. Are staff playing gmh, nobles, templars? Are they soaking up benders and psi roles? Was staff manipulating the karma timers to their own PC benefit?
A while ago, staff was pretty transparent about roles their staffers were playing that required spec apps.
I'd like to see that again.
The unintended consequence of that (re: Patuk, not dumbstruck or Iiyola who are going to be above me but I don't have time to address why I agree that transparency is cool, damn you lunch!) is that people aren't going to feel free to speak clearly if they think that someone else gets to determine if what they said is true or not. Someone might say 'but I have logs,' to which someone might respond, 'those are doctored,' or on and on and on. We don't have a forensic team, here. And who gets to judge? And who appoints that person? And why do we trust them more than someone else?
As a practical matter, a ban/fire binary for accusations and issues is not going to work. It's a very idealistic point of view, and in an ideal world maybe there would be some good way to determine true/false, but that isn't how things actually work.
Quote from: valeria on October 24, 2022, 01:44:28 PM
The unintended consequence of that (re: Patuk, not dumbstruck or Iiyola who are going to be above me but I don't have time to address why I agree that transparency is cool, damn you lunch!) is that people aren't going to feel free to speak clearly if they think that someone else gets to determine if what they said is true or not. Someone might say 'but I have logs,' to which someone might respond, 'those are doctored,' or on and on and on. We don't have a forensic team, here. And who gets to judge? And who appoints that person? And why do we trust them more than someone else?
As a practical matter, a ban/fire binary for accusations and issues is not going to work. It's a very idealistic point of view, and in an ideal world maybe there would be some good way to determine true/false, but that isn't how things actually work.
I mean. If a person claims that they were requested sexual favors irl for benefits/safety in game, I'd definitely want logs. Because if true, I'm not going to play a game where such a person is on staff. There is not middle, or grey area. Its either true, or it isn't.
Example is not related to actual cases mentioned above.
Good, glad you mention its not related to a place where my thing was cited because mine was specifically an animation. It wasn't a thing that happened out of game. I can only speak for myself but I definitely don't want to leave room for ambiguity there.
Quote from: valeria on October 24, 2022, 01:44:28 PM
The unintended consequence of that (re: Patuk, not dumbstruck or Iiyola who are going to be above me but I don't have time to address why I agree that transparency is cool, damn you lunch!) is that people aren't going to feel free to speak clearly if they think that someone else gets to determine if what they said is true or not. Someone might say 'but I have logs,' to which someone might respond, 'those are doctored,' or on and on and on. We don't have a forensic team, here. And who gets to judge? And who appoints that person? And why do we trust them more than someone else?
As a practical matter, a ban/fire binary for accusations and issues is not going to work. It's a very idealistic point of view, and in an ideal world maybe there would be some good way to determine true/false, but that isn't how things actually work.
If you get sexually abused, come forward, and are told you're a liar before getting banned, you have been done a favor. You are no longer part of a community that will treat you so poorly.
Quote from: Iiyola on October 24, 2022, 01:42:09 PM
Quote from: Furious George on October 24, 2022, 11:55:54 AM
Staff avatar policy as well. Are staff playing gmh, nobles, templars? Are they soaking up benders and psi roles? Was staff manipulating the karma timers to their own PC benefit?
A while ago, staff was pretty transparent about roles their staffers were playing that required spec apps.
I'd like to see that again.
Staff simply aren't allowed to play templars and nobles unless they're a "resource PC". That is a character who is somewhere between a regular PC and an NPC. They are created for specific purposes to advance specific plots, or to generally provide guidance IC'ly to a group or clan. But they are played much more than an NPC would. They are not allowed to initiate conflict at all, being fairly limited in what they're allowed to do.
Staff can play normal roles without restrictions.
GMH and other leader type roles staff can play
if it needs to be filled and no players are stepping up to fill in it. If a player steps up, staff step aside.
There are 3 slots for psionicsts and 3 for sorcerers, and staff are not allowed to use those. Semi-recently, Brokkr announced that there -is- another slot open for staff to play one of those roles, but it's 1 total slot and doesn't take away from the player slots. Meaning, if Hestia plays one, no one else on staff can. Since he announced it, it was only filled once and very briefly, currently remaining unfilled.
Is that what you meant? We obviously aren't going to tell which characters staff specifically play.
I just asked for clarity on a rule, if it's a rule, not who's playing what. If that helps.
Quote from: Halaster on October 24, 2022, 02:31:36 PM
Staff simply aren't allowed to play templars and nobles unless they're a "resource PC". That is a character who is somewhere between a regular PC and an NPC. They are created for specific purposes to advance specific plots, or to generally provide guidance IC'ly to a group or clan. But they are played much more than an NPC would. They are not allowed to initiate conflict at all, being fairly limited in what they're allowed to do.
Staff can play normal roles without restrictions.
GMH and other leader type roles staff can play if it needs to be filled and no players are stepping up to fill in it. If a player steps up, staff step aside.
There are 3 slots for psionicsts and 3 for sorcerers, and staff are not allowed to use those. Semi-recently, Brokkr announced that there -is- another slot open for staff to play one of those roles, but it's 1 total slot and doesn't take away from the player slots. Meaning, if Hestia plays one, no one else on staff can. Since he announced it, it was only filled once and very briefly, currently remaining unfilled.
Is that what you meant? We obviously aren't going to tell which characters staff specifically play.
Hah, no, of course I didn't mean to indicate who exactly they play. I just recalled having seen a notice about one slot for Sorcs that was taken by a staffer, that's all. And it still seems to be the case, which is fine imho.
Staff shouldn't be playing sorcs and psis for the same reason they shouldn't be allowed to play in clans they administer.
The knowledge they gain from staffing can be too easily abused, they can insert themselves into plots far too easily and they arn't reliant on legwork just to learn what the state of the world is.
Meanwhile cut to my sorc who was literally struggling to get even 10 minutes of interaction in just 3 hours of play while staff were breathing down my neck about not being involved enough.
Quote from: Patuk on October 24, 2022, 01:59:12 PM
If you get sexually abused, come forward, and are told you're a liar before getting banned, you have been done a favor. You are no longer part of a community that will treat you so poorly.
To wit, I was startled, disappointed in the thoroughness of which everything was deleted and the public silence with which my ban was dealt until it was made public-- but the ban itself was irrelevant. Or if it was relevant, it was only in that it reinforced my desire to disengage.
That says enough, I think, and this the final post I will make here, as I see that my original post is archived elsewhere. There's no point in going through all the effort of re-writing it and laboring over how to phrase things "just so" -- I've done that enough already, to no effect.
I do regret some of the phrasing, such as the mental health comment- I meant to indicate that while I do not get along with them, I hold them no malice and hope that they self-reflect and improve. Simply put, it is unhealthy for me to be exposed to them (and possibly for them to be exposed to me, since we have such an irreconcilable difference). Would I recommend they remain in a position of authority (i.e. higher than storyteller) in the game? No. Did I demand they be fired or similar? No. I simply did not want them in a position to wield power over me any longer, and judging by the responses I got, and on reflection, the only way that was going to happen was for me to leave the game.
Staff whom I had thought were understanding and fair attacked me and my integrity in that staff member's defense.
It was and is now even clearer based on various responses both public and private that no matter how I present matters, I will be painted in the wrong. Impartial mediation of a messy situation is more difficult than dismissing it, wiping the table clean, and trying to start over.
So, I did all of us a favor, and disengaged entirely from the game.
If I were in the mood to be tongue in cheek, I'd post that meme from Half-Baked, but I imagine it'd get taken too seriously and folks would get riled, so I'll just say: I enjoyed playing with many of you. It's a shame that it came to this, and I think it was Wizturbo or Malken that said something along the lines of: while I don't play, I remember the game fondly, and I observe it from afar, hoping for improvement.
I've become a pessimist in that regard, but I would love to be pleasantly surprised.
So long, and thanks for all the stories. Delirium out.
Jesus Christ, what happened here?
I would like to know what was said by Delirium if anyone has a summary of it. I think it's important to understand what the experience it. I hadn't been reading the thread, but the banning / deleting of posts did make me uncomfortable, especially since I see words such as 'abuse' and 'sexually abused' being quoted.
Here is the post in it's entirety and before staff even want to question me, yes, I got it from the shadow boards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see a lot of bandying about of this or that idea that might help in the short-term but I don't see the root issue being actively addressed. It's the elephant in the room. Few mention it because they're still invested in the game and don't want to be punished, and the rest are too tired of wasting their breath, or they've simply moved on and don't feel that it's worth even engaging with. I have time today. So what the heck, I'll step up.
gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57217.msg1076606.html#msg1076606
I posted that, and was encouraged to come back by a few people, to give the game a chance.
On deciding to give the game another chance, I immediately met with an issue where staff went back on a prior agreement, but I still figured out a way to adjust my character's story and return. I had fun for about a month, then was met with more abuse veiled in "professionalism" and hostile behavior across multiple channels, and when I brought it up, of course it was denied, and I was just being dramatic. The well was clearly poisoned against me by someone who had far more authority than I, a player, could counteract. So I left again.
Current policies and cultures of personality among some staff have created a cult-like atmosphere where players strive for staff approval while staff do not need to reciprocate in kind. I had genuine hopes for actual collaboration and two-way street communication, but every time I apologized for my frustrations (and frankly, some things I should not have apologized for, but I did so in the hopes of improving reconciliation and a better understanding moving forward). Instead, my apologies were weaponized against me. What fun.
I realize that most staff are well-meaning. That doesn't mean the rot isn't there.
The final straw came when a staff member who had been historically manipulative and had recently been rude to me across multiple channels responded to a request meant for someone else with a cherry-picked and brusque response to something I'd spent hours carefully putting together in hopes of assisting staff with a project they were clearly excited about. Most changes that staff member made were punitive, while other suggestions were ignored entirely. I had forgiven much of this staffer's abuse in the past (we're talking 20 years of history, both in game and without). I even stood up for that staff member when I felt they were unfairly accused, as lo and behold, I am capable of putting aside my dislike for someone and attempting to be as impartial as possible. But, at this point, I no longer wished to work with them again, I was tired of holding back the reasons why I felt that way, and I explained that in my subsequent response.
The response I got was that they were in the right, they were not going anywhere, I was throwing around "buzzwords", I was called "vicious", and my objections were further compared to me accusing staff of acting like serial killers and axe murderers.
At the time, I felt like I'd been gut-punched and was in tears, but distance has rendered that whole situation darkly hilarious. I was so desperate to find a way to continue playing, to "fix" things, that I was putting up with verbal and emotional abuse.
Thus it was proved to me, despite my initial hopes, that staff culture has not fundamentally changed, nor is it likely to.
So I ceased engaging, and I left.
I remember once, I'd put weeks of preparation into an RPT, gathered a good amount of people, and got the dreaded "light-show." I was disappointed and offered ways it could have been a more engaging scene for players if a similar situation arose in the future. I was told that I should be grateful we got that much as they considered having the RPT be a complete failure. That would have been the equivalent of standing around for real life hours, doing nothing, in the name of realism, in a game that is supposed to be ... fun?
In what world am I wrong to be frustrated with that sort of attitude and response?
Aside from the iron curtain and general staff-player relations, I think staff have also lost sight of two critical things: one, this is a roleplaying game that is meant to be fun, so focusing too much on policing realism and encouraging "harshness" detracts from that. There needs to be a balance between the world theme and the game remaining entertaining to play. Two, player effort doesn't seem to register. At all.
Yes staff put in a lot of effort too, but if something is exhausting a player who is trying their best to to shrug off frustrations so they can continue trying to create engaging stories and involve others, then maybe, just maybe, you should listen to that player's concerns and take them seriously so they don't end up imploding under the pressure of what is supposed to be a game. Too often, staff end up pushing players into the role of mini-staff, but without any of the tools staff get (and then wonder why "leadership roles" have such high turnover).
When you read a request, the ideal thought process should be, how can I support this player, and if their idea isn't workable, how can I convey that in a way that helps them understand the gameworld and encourages them to find another idea that is?
If your thought process is "ugh" and to want to toss a snarky remark and close the request, step down from staff. Yesterday.
The game is also far too siloed; players are judged poorly for wanting to interact, and many policies and documentations that go in place seems to encourage further separation. You have 4 people in a tavern, but one's an elf, one's a gemmed mage, one's a half-elf, and one's a human, and everyone's scared to interact with each other, because it might be bad roleplay, and staff might come down on them for the very human desire to entertain themselves in a roleplaying game. Yes, you can engage in conflict roleplay that remains OOCly fun, but that takes practice. It also takes veteran players to set a good example, but those players are increasingly driven away or become staff and rarely have time to do so. Finally, grimdark all the time without any levity and fun to balance it out makes for a depressing, boring time all around.
I realize all of this is wasted breath; I realize that nothing is likely to fundamentally change. Staff are too fixated on their harsh world, and too unwilling to admit culpability enough to enact real, effective and long-lasting policy and behavior change. Nice-sounding words will be bandied about, things might seem better for a while, but then we go right back to the same-old, same-old.
I've seen this happen over and over again for 20 years and after being force-stored while taking a break to let myself cool down and decide whether this game was still worth it, I can't see at all how you're going to repair all that repeatedly broken trust. It's no wonder to me that staff is focused on bringing in new blood instead, except those players aren't going to stick without solid veterans to draw them in.
Back to my own issues, and the reason why I and my husband aren't playing.
In a last-ditch effort to salvage matters, my husband sent in a request with his own concerns, carefully and diplomatically written, with a clear path toward resolution, should staff have taken him up on it. Instead, it was rebutted, and clear that entire swathes of the request were ignored; why that is, I can speculate, but that does nobody any good. All I know is the end result was both of us force-stored and two long-time veterans, who are without a doubt solid roleplayers who are good at catching, carrying, and creating plots, have stopped playing. ("Oh, it's not force storage, you're welcome to ask for them back" -- except we did not ask for or want our characters stored, ergo, that is the definition of force storage. Claiming it was not force storage is a great example of weasel words to justify bad behavior.)
I can think of at least two other veterans who had similar experiences and offered equal or greater value to the game, who also left.
Until staff takes a hard look at their own house and cleans it out of abusive, cynical behavior, and until behavior shifts toward enabling and collaborating rather than policing, nothing will get better long-term, and the game will continue to stagnate and suffer.
It's a shame. I do genuinely hope to see the game recover. I hold no malice toward the game or even toward the staff; even the one who was so abusive toward me clearly needs help IRL and hopefully will, someday, receive it, and take accountability for their behavior.
For a while, I thought that at least I could provide entertainment for other players and try not to engage with staff, but that kept proving to be a fool's hope, and it came to a point where I felt irresponsible if I kept trying to draw other players into the game's current culture.
I've told many stories that I will cherish, but considering all of the above, I won't be back unless things actually get better.
In the meantime I'll be channeling my creativity in other ways, and I won't be holding my breath.
That is really unfortunate and demotivating and I understand that things might've been taken personally but I don't see how that is a post to ban someone for.
I remember Delirium, man, they seemed like a great player! If I recall well, really cool emotes, don't know what was going on behind the scenes with staff. Judging by the post and tone in general, I don't see them being repeat offenders or problem players, but maybe I am wrong.
I'm a bit sad in general now after reading the thread.
Quote from: Svalinya on October 24, 2022, 03:55:41 PM
Jesus Christ, what happened here?
I think thread needs to locked. We aren't on topic anymore, we are just making a bigger fire.
Quote from: Barsook on October 24, 2022, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: Svalinya on October 24, 2022, 03:55:41 PM
Jesus Christ, what happened here?
I think thread needs to locked. We aren't on topic anymore, we are just making a bigger fire.
Quote from: Krath on October 24, 2022, 04:14:34 PM
Here is the post in it's entirety and before staff even want to question me, yes, I got it from the shadow boards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see a lot of bandying about of this or that idea that might help in the short-term but I don't see the root issue being actively addressed. It's the elephant in the room. Few mention it because they're still invested in the game and don't want to be punished, and the rest are too tired of wasting their breath, or they've simply moved on and don't feel that it's worth even engaging with. I have time today. So what the heck, I'll step up.
gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57217.msg1076606.html#msg1076606
I posted that, and was encouraged to come back by a few people, to give the game a chance.
On deciding to give the game another chance, I immediately met with an issue where staff went back on a prior agreement, but I still figured out a way to adjust my character's story and return. I had fun for about a month, then was met with more abuse veiled in "professionalism" and hostile behavior across multiple channels, and when I brought it up, of course it was denied, and I was just being dramatic. The well was clearly poisoned against me by someone who had far more authority than I, a player, could counteract. So I left again.
Current policies and cultures of personality among some staff have created a cult-like atmosphere where players strive for staff approval while staff do not need to reciprocate in kind. I had genuine hopes for actual collaboration and two-way street communication, but every time I apologized for my frustrations (and frankly, some things I should not have apologized for, but I did so in the hopes of improving reconciliation and a better understanding moving forward). Instead, my apologies were weaponized against me. What fun.
I realize that most staff are well-meaning. That doesn't mean the rot isn't there.
The final straw came when a staff member who had been historically manipulative and had recently been rude to me across multiple channels responded to a request meant for someone else with a cherry-picked and brusque response to something I'd spent hours carefully putting together in hopes of assisting staff with a project they were clearly excited about. Most changes that staff member made were punitive, while other suggestions were ignored entirely. I had forgiven much of this staffer's abuse in the past (we're talking 20 years of history, both in game and without). I even stood up for that staff member when I felt they were unfairly accused, as lo and behold, I am capable of putting aside my dislike for someone and attempting to be as impartial as possible. But, at this point, I no longer wished to work with them again, I was tired of holding back the reasons why I felt that way, and I explained that in my subsequent response.
The response I got was that they were in the right, they were not going anywhere, I was throwing around "buzzwords", I was called "vicious", and my objections were further compared to me accusing staff of acting like serial killers and axe murderers.
At the time, I felt like I'd been gut-punched and was in tears, but distance has rendered that whole situation darkly hilarious. I was so desperate to find a way to continue playing, to "fix" things, that I was putting up with verbal and emotional abuse.
Thus it was proved to me, despite my initial hopes, that staff culture has not fundamentally changed, nor is it likely to.
So I ceased engaging, and I left.
I remember once, I'd put weeks of preparation into an RPT, gathered a good amount of people, and got the dreaded "light-show." I was disappointed and offered ways it could have been a more engaging scene for players if a similar situation arose in the future. I was told that I should be grateful we got that much as they considered having the RPT be a complete failure. That would have been the equivalent of standing around for real life hours, doing nothing, in the name of realism, in a game that is supposed to be ... fun?
In what world am I wrong to be frustrated with that sort of attitude and response?
Aside from the iron curtain and general staff-player relations, I think staff have also lost sight of two critical things: one, this is a roleplaying game that is meant to be fun, so focusing too much on policing realism and encouraging "harshness" detracts from that. There needs to be a balance between the world theme and the game remaining entertaining to play. Two, player effort doesn't seem to register. At all.
Yes staff put in a lot of effort too, but if something is exhausting a player who is trying their best to to shrug off frustrations so they can continue trying to create engaging stories and involve others, then maybe, just maybe, you should listen to that player's concerns and take them seriously so they don't end up imploding under the pressure of what is supposed to be a game. Too often, staff end up pushing players into the role of mini-staff, but without any of the tools staff get (and then wonder why "leadership roles" have such high turnover).
When you read a request, the ideal thought process should be, how can I support this player, and if their idea isn't workable, how can I convey that in a way that helps them understand the gameworld and encourages them to find another idea that is?
If your thought process is "ugh" and to want to toss a snarky remark and close the request, step down from staff. Yesterday.
The game is also far too siloed; players are judged poorly for wanting to interact, and many policies and documentations that go in place seems to encourage further separation. You have 4 people in a tavern, but one's an elf, one's a gemmed mage, one's a half-elf, and one's a human, and everyone's scared to interact with each other, because it might be bad roleplay, and staff might come down on them for the very human desire to entertain themselves in a roleplaying game. Yes, you can engage in conflict roleplay that remains OOCly fun, but that takes practice. It also takes veteran players to set a good example, but those players are increasingly driven away or become staff and rarely have time to do so. Finally, grimdark all the time without any levity and fun to balance it out makes for a depressing, boring time all around.
I realize all of this is wasted breath; I realize that nothing is likely to fundamentally change. Staff are too fixated on their harsh world, and too unwilling to admit culpability enough to enact real, effective and long-lasting policy and behavior change. Nice-sounding words will be bandied about, things might seem better for a while, but then we go right back to the same-old, same-old.
I've seen this happen over and over again for 20 years and after being force-stored while taking a break to let myself cool down and decide whether this game was still worth it, I can't see at all how you're going to repair all that repeatedly broken trust. It's no wonder to me that staff is focused on bringing in new blood instead, except those players aren't going to stick without solid veterans to draw them in.
Back to my own issues, and the reason why I and my husband aren't playing.
In a last-ditch effort to salvage matters, my husband sent in a request with his own concerns, carefully and diplomatically written, with a clear path toward resolution, should staff have taken him up on it. Instead, it was rebutted, and clear that entire swathes of the request were ignored; why that is, I can speculate, but that does nobody any good. All I know is the end result was both of us force-stored and two long-time veterans, who are without a doubt solid roleplayers who are good at catching, carrying, and creating plots, have stopped playing. ("Oh, it's not force storage, you're welcome to ask for them back" -- except we did not ask for or want our characters stored, ergo, that is the definition of force storage. Claiming it was not force storage is a great example of weasel words to justify bad behavior.)
I can think of at least two other veterans who had similar experiences and offered equal or greater value to the game, who also left.
Until staff takes a hard look at their own house and cleans it out of abusive, cynical behavior, and until behavior shifts toward enabling and collaborating rather than policing, nothing will get better long-term, and the game will continue to stagnate and suffer.
It's a shame. I do genuinely hope to see the game recover. I hold no malice toward the game or even toward the staff; even the one who was so abusive toward me clearly needs help IRL and hopefully will, someday, receive it, and take accountability for their behavior.
For a while, I thought that at least I could provide entertainment for other players and try not to engage with staff, but that kept proving to be a fool's hope, and it came to a point where I felt irresponsible if I kept trying to draw other players into the game's current culture.
I've told many stories that I will cherish, but considering all of the above, I won't be back unless things actually get better.
In the meantime I'll be channeling my creativity in other ways, and I won't be holding my breath.
This was truly a gut punch to read, as it greatly resonated with my own experience with the game and with Staff. Particularly the part about apologies and honesty being weaponized against me...Ouch. Brutal and true.
I'll continue to watch from afar and see how the game steers and course corrects. But this wasn't good optics.
Please don't lock the thread. No one is forcing you to read it or participate. Silencing dissenting opinions does more harm than good. There's an old quote by someone I can't remember that talks about not agreeing with someone but defending to the death their right to say their peace, and I think that's in order here. Let people speak their minds, if they are writing out harmful stuff, moderation is in order, but so far I haven't seen anything harmful, derogatory, transphobic, xenophobic, homophobic or anything of that nature. People are giving feedback in this thread and I still have unanswered questions which I can patiently wait for if the thread gets locked those questions will be moot.
Quote from: Shabago on October 23, 2022, 08:58:56 PM
If there are more specific asks to be had here, have at it. I don't intend to lock the thread. Some questions just may not have a ready answer, or be something we can't fully answer, but I (we) will do our best.
Quote from: Iiyola on October 24, 2022, 05:06:19 PM
Quote from: Barsook on October 24, 2022, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: Svalinya on October 24, 2022, 03:55:41 PM
Jesus Christ, what happened here?
I think thread needs to locked. We aren't on topic anymore, we are just making a bigger fire.
Putting your head in the sand and trying to sweep unpleasantness under the rug gets us nowhere. Staff want a frank discussion about why people may and may not log in, and they are getting it. I appreciate the fact that they have kept this thread open, allowing uncomfortable answers to what is an uncomfortable question.
Understood. I'm sorry for my rude(ish) post.
It's alright, I understand the anxiety.
While I'm here I just want to also point out: A lot of the core gameplay elements of Arm are based on racist tropes that have no place in modern storytelling.
Quote from: Barsook on October 24, 2022, 06:25:47 PM
Understood. I'm sorry for my rude(ish) post.
Not rude at all. I understand where youre coming from.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 24, 2022, 06:53:37 PM
While I'm here I just want to also point out: A lot of the core gameplay elements of Arm are based on racist tropes that have no place in modern storytelling.
So is GoT in its entirety. I enjoy the style and theme that Armageddon has.
If the reason why Arm is losing players is that its theme has become too offending to players of 2022, then the game really should shut down. I mean they stopped showing 'The Office'.
I personally do not think this is the reason though.
Quote from: Delirium on October 24, 2022, 03:48:11 PM
Quote from: Patuk on October 24, 2022, 01:59:12 PM
If you get sexually abused, come forward, and are told you're a liar before getting banned, you have been done a favor. You are no longer part of a community that will treat you so poorly.
To wit, I was startled, disappointed in the thoroughness of which everything was deleted and the public silence with which my ban was dealt until it was made public-- but the ban itself was irrelevant. Or if it was relevant, it was only in that it reinforced my desire to disengage.
That says enough, I think, and this the final post I will make here, as I see that my original post is archived elsewhere. There's no point in going through all the effort of re-writing it and laboring over how to phrase things "just so" -- I've done that enough already, to no effect.
I do regret some of the phrasing, such as the mental health comment- I meant to indicate that while I do not get along with them, I hold them no malice and hope that they self-reflect and improve. Simply put, it is unhealthy for me to be exposed to them (and possibly for them to be exposed to me, since we have such an irreconcilable difference). Would I recommend they remain in a position of authority (i.e. higher than storyteller) in the game? No. Did I demand they be fired or similar? No. I simply did not want them in a position to wield power over me any longer, and judging by the responses I got, and on reflection, the only way that was going to happen was for me to leave the game.
Staff whom I had thought were understanding and fair attacked me and my integrity in that staff member's defense.
It was and is now even clearer based on various responses both public and private that no matter how I present matters, I will be painted in the wrong. Impartial mediation of a messy situation is more difficult than dismissing it, wiping the table clean, and trying to start over.
So, I did all of us a favor, and disengaged entirely from the game.
If I were in the mood to be tongue in cheek, I'd post that meme from Half-Baked, but I imagine it'd get taken too seriously and folks would get riled, so I'll just say: I enjoyed playing with many of you. It's a shame that it came to this, and I think it was Wizturbo or Malken that said something along the lines of: while I don't play, I remember the game fondly, and I observe it from afar, hoping for improvement.
I've become a pessimist in that regard, but I would love to be pleasantly surprised.
So long, and thanks for all the stories. Delirium out.
I personally understand, although your decision saddens me. I liken this situation to dentistry. They pole and prode and when they touch an area that elicits a jerky response, they start to work on it and treat it.
The twitch happened. banned. Shit talk. Unban. Apology. Shit talk. okay ... Lets not stop. Lets continue. Lets keep exploring areas that hurt. Ultimately, the vast majority of us are 30+ years old. Most of us encountered situations where we do not get what we want. Most of us have dealt with people and arrived to some kind of agreement that allowed people to coexist together. Most of us learned to overcome personal tantrums.
Lets do this. Lets keep exploration. Not until people who already made their decisions have their decisions reaffirmed and retreat into the left corner, while those with opposite decisions reaffirmed theirs and they return to their own corner. Net result: Nothing but hurt feelings.
Please. Lets keep probing until no misunderstanding remains. No hidden resentment remains either validated, or dissuaded.
I implore every one to not recede, but continue explaining your view. So we either arrive to everyone's happiness, or a final perishing.
Bebop has an issue and she chose not pursue it when I probed her ... A year ago? She did it for the benefit of the game. Thats nice, evidently the Issue is still there - poisoning the well.
Clearly not engaging is not helping things anymore. Leaving issues alone only leaves them to rot and infect.
I implore you Delirium to not disengage, but double down. On detail, on argument, on example. Otherwise this is all pointless.
Quote from: Dar on October 24, 2022, 07:21:41 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on October 24, 2022, 06:53:37 PM
While I'm here I just want to also point out: A lot of the core gameplay elements of Arm are based on racist tropes that have no place in modern storytelling.
So is GoT in its entirety. I enjoy the style and theme that Armageddon has.
If the reason why Arm is losing players is that its theme has become too offending to players of 2022, then the game really should shut down. I mean they stopped showing 'The Office'.
I personally do not think this is the reason though.
It may not be a big reason why Armageddon is losing players, but it could certainly be a reason why players are going to more modern MU*s instead of Arm when looking for a new MUD to roleplay in. Given that one of the upshots to this thread has been potentially establishing a new player/advertising committee I think Is Friday's point is very pertinent.
Edit to add: Regarding your reply to Delirium, it's not her duty or responsibility to stick around for the sake of the game's improvement. She has clearly stated it is unhealthy for her, and that's that. We should respect that.
Dar, I think it's pretty clear what Delirium requested:
"As a player, can I avoid interacting with this staff member."Which has been commented upon here:
Quote from: Halaster on October 21, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
...
My thoughts on this specific point:
Quote5. When personality conflicts can't be resolved beetween a staff member and a player, allow players to choose not to interact with a staffer (and vice versa if that is not already a policy).
It is unfeasible to have someone who staffs over a specific area not resolve requests or interact with a specific player just because those two don't get along. I get where you're coming from, and that would be nice if it's something we could accommodate, but it's just not practical. There are actually times when we attempt to do this, but only if it's reasonably possible without undue burden on staff. For example, a player was in a clan when I asked a Storyteller if they'd staff this clan. The Storyteller said they'd rather not while that person is there, so they didn't. In that scenario it made sense because the player was already there, and we had alternatives to staff that clan. But we will not make it a policy that a staffer won't interact with or answer requests if a specific player asks.
and also replied here a year ago when Is Friday asked the same question:
Quote from: Brokkr on November 13, 2021, 10:29:34 PM
Is Friday, unfortunately, that does not match with our staffing model, where clans are assigned on a Storyteller by Storyteller basis, under an Admin responsible for the region. A Storyteller is meant to handle everything in their assigned clans, unless being backed up due to an absence. This allows them to stay abreast of what is happening and coordinate plots for that group. Same with Admins. We do not have the capacity to support a system where a player can opt out of the normal means of oversight.
You know the variety of ways a staff member can interact with the players:
* room echos
* inhabiting an npc
* responding to requests
* loading items
* changing room descriptions and room flags
* responding to wishes
How can Delirium double-down on this argument when two Producers of the game have said it is unfeasible in the current staff structure to accomplish this? She has put in a request about this, was denied, and then decided she couldn't continue interacting with this community for their own mental health.
Modern roleplaying structures are more transparent and don't allow for abuses to be done in private as they are here. I think that is the greatest concern of anyone returning who has been wronged in the past.
Can we have another thread like this one https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55748.0.html where Shabs and rest of the staff can post in so it doesn't muddle this one? It really helped before and maybe have a link to this thread?
Quote from: Is Friday on October 24, 2022, 08:15:57 PM
Modern roleplaying structures are more transparent and don't allow for abuses to be done in private as they are here. I think that is the greatest concern of anyone returning who has been wronged in the past.
One of the things I have noticed recently, and I hope it will become policy, is that staff have started replying to my wishes with a signature. I greatly enjoy this change, and wish it was encoded somehow in the game, rather than manually done by the staff. I feel it helps to be more transparent with the communication to the players.
Example:
>wish all I seem to be stuck in my apartment after the game crashed, and I do not have my key. Can someone please let me out? Thansk!
>
>
Someone sends:
"Unlocked! You're free! - shabago"
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2022, 08:45:36 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on October 24, 2022, 08:15:57 PM
Modern roleplaying structures are more transparent and don't allow for abuses to be done in private as they are here. I think that is the greatest concern of anyone returning who has been wronged in the past.
One of the things I have noticed recently, and I hope it will become policy, is that staff have started replying to my wishes with a signature. I greatly enjoy this change, and wish it was encoded somehow in the game, rather than manually done by the staff. I feel it helps to be more transparent with the communication to the players.
Example:
>wish all I seem to be stuck in my apartment after the game crashed, and I do not have my key. Can someone please let me out? Thansk!
>
>
Someone sends:
"Unlocked! You're free! - shabago"
Not to beat a drum here but... if Shabago were visible, you'd just get 'Shabago sends', and there would be no need to add a signature. Literally the only reason you can't see who is sending these is because of the policy of logging in as wizinvis by default.
Nessalin used to log in visible just so he could ban people who wished up to him.
These are our roots.
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 24, 2022, 08:49:10 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2022, 08:45:36 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on October 24, 2022, 08:15:57 PM
Modern roleplaying structures are more transparent and don't allow for abuses to be done in private as they are here. I think that is the greatest concern of anyone returning who has been wronged in the past.
One of the things I have noticed recently, and I hope it will become policy, is that staff have started replying to my wishes with a signature. I greatly enjoy this change, and wish it was encoded somehow in the game, rather than manually done by the staff. I feel it helps to be more transparent with the communication to the players.
Example:
>wish all I seem to be stuck in my apartment after the game crashed, and I do not have my key. Can someone please let me out? Thansk!
>
>
Someone sends:
"Unlocked! You're free! - shabago"
Not to beat a drum here but... if Shabago were visible, you'd just get 'Shabago sends', and there would be no need to add a signature. Literally the only reason you can't see who is sending these is because of the policy of logging in as wizinvis by default.
There are different levels of invisibility that Staff can set — if they are visible enough to appear when responding to wishes, they would also be visible in a room, and as Staff often multi task and respond to wishes while doing something else, it's typically better to set your invis level so you won't appear to PCs when you poofin or poofout than be visible when responding to wishes.
That being said maybe it can be coded so the invisibility level doesn't affect wish sends, unless it is more purposefully set that way.
Quote from: Delirium on October 24, 2022, 03:48:11 PM
So long, and thanks for all the stories. Delirium out.
I'll miss you. One of my favorite players of all time. I hope whatever brought you to this decision changes with time and you return, would love to play with you again sometime (whenever I get a chance to return myself...)
Frankly, all staff communication being signed in some way is a bare minimum when it comes to transparency.
The fact that whenever transparency from staff comes up, the concern is redirected to player privacy, is admittedly discouraging. It is possible to be transparent about rulings, about internal discipline directed at staff for abuses, etc., without violating player privacy. The fact that this happens in modern roleplaying games is proof of this, and Is Friday is absolutely right that newer games have this figured out.
I'm not really sure what to say that hasn't already been said. Several players have said they have left the game due to outright abuse by staff, both in this thread and and in outside places. Logic follows that, to retain players, staff need to be more aggressive about preventing further abuse from happening. I would like a straight answer from a Producer on what they want to do to prevent staff abuses going forward.
Not to detract from the concept of 'abuse by staff'. I would love seeing a clearer definition of this. Riev began saying he had an staff alt disable crime code, only to later reduce it to some elves drawing blades. Then proceeded to talk about how Nessalin uninvised to ban people who wished him.
We definitely should address the staff abuses. But we should be able to see whats real and whats fiction.
Quote from: Dar on October 25, 2022, 10:55:43 AM
Not to detract from the concept of 'abuse by staff'. I would love seeing a clearer definition of this. Riev began saying he had an staff alt disable crime code, only to later reduce it to some elves drawing blades. Then proceeded to talk about how Nessalin uninvised to ban people who wished him.
We definitely should address the staff abuses. But we should be able to see whats real and whats fiction.
Well that's the problem. If you refuse to address problems publicly and only privately it's very convenient for you as the senior in the senior/subordinate relationship. People will tell their stories elsewhere. Those stories will be read but no response, (this was stated as staff policy here due to privacy concerns). This to me is a bad policy but that's just me. No other game does it this way anywhere afaik, if someone can give me an example I'd love to see one. Every other game I've ever played if you have a public complaint it is usually resolved publicly. It's vexing. I'm terribly vexed.
Well. I used to be a regional manager in a company that was big enough to have HR department and I now own my own company. Always, always, ALWAYS conflicts were resolved privately.
In a big company it would be HR being the buffer. They heard all parties out, gathered all the information. Then helped both me ane the employee to reach a resolution. Occasionally, I didnt even know who was the employee in question. HR did not answer to me and if we failed to reach a resolution was ment to go over my head.
Now that I own my company, we are too small for HR. I handle such issues personally, but still always privately. The key there is that there is rarely emotion on my end. Its a balance between morality, reputation, effectiveness, and profit.
I said game not company. Also Arm is not a fortune 500 company. It's a free text based game online in a niche genre that has maybe 10k players to advertise to. I've never seen a game not utilize public criticism as a way to make the game better. Game designers should want people complaining about the game, that's the only way you're going to make it better. Once people stop complaining you're in trouble because nobody is playing the game anymore.
Quote from: Dar on October 25, 2022, 10:55:43 AM
Not to detract from the concept of 'abuse by staff'. I would love seeing a clearer definition of this. Riev began saying he had an staff alt disable crime code, only to later reduce it to some elves drawing blades. Then proceeded to talk about how Nessalin uninvised to ban people who wished him.
We definitely should address the staff abuses. But we should be able to see whats real and whats fiction.
Here are some examples in this thread of what I mean by abuse by staff. They got lost in the discussion about karma timers, decaying items, and the situation surrounding Halaster/Delirium.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1081422.html#msg1081422
"That followed some pretty awful things that happened to a previous character in game and instead of having certain general questions answered I was basically given some rather nasty replies. "
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1081497.html#msg1081497
"A questionable, previously-warned player is allowed a special role as the leader of a large organization. Borderline sexually abuses newbies to the game, makes me want to store multiple times, makes terrible decisions compounded by lack of OOC communication staff-side, completely ruins my enjoyment. Later I found out that this person made many people store through other iterations, from this borderline behavior, had been warned before, and that I probably should have reported it every time. You can fix this by not letting known sex pests play your game at all, let alone take the reins."
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1081881.html#msg1081881
"Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. "
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1082080.html#msg1082080
"As I get older, it becomes harder to dedicate time to a game where I am unable to share my experiences, good or bad, without fear of being negatively affected by a faceless organization that controls how much fun and support I get IN that game."
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1082169.html#msg1082169
" I still think about my noble being murdered, for refusing to have sex with the NPC. Staff married her to him as a punishment for not wanting to participate in a plot."
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1082177.html#msg1082177
" there is absolutely no urge to dip myself or my headspace into a -game- environment that feels like it could give two shits less for all the hours I've played, items and docs I've submitted, leaders I've tried to get thru staff rotations, festivals I've put hours into to make story for others or attempts I've made to help others figure it out."
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1082191.html#msg1082191
"I could be wrong on a few details but however it went, staff response wasn't helpful what so ever. I was literally surrounded by trees, the code wasn't working, and I was being treated like a dumb ass."
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1082262.html#msg1082262
" People aren't just stepping away because game make me mad. Some people have felt harassed, abused and sexually uncomfortable. These things have been issues for years and I know I personally have never felt they have been approached with the seriousness they deserve and I can't keep going there with it because it's super triggering to be dismissed, minimalized and not believed. ... These are serious matters and they hurt trust as the years tick by and there are zero visible repercussions or significant changes to staff culture."
There is a lot to address in these posts, and to be frank they have been barely responded to or touched. I assume it's because these are sensitive issues (to varying degrees obviously) and staff want to take their time to craft a reply. And I can be patient. But I would really like to see
something.
Just pointing out that the two busy threads include sentiments like:
."I don't always feel like I'm playing in a safe gaming environment"
AND
"I really wish there were more ways to subdue, hinder, abuse PCs, maybe even presenting it as a mobile locked room for pkill."
Wanting to introduce an IC command != wanting less accountability/transparency in a situation where a very real power imbalance (often only exacerbated by the veneer of anonymity because you don't even truly know who is behind these actions when they are happening in game versus in the request tool - you can guess, but you can't be certain) is causing problems for some people? I mean, I get what you are saying, but I don't feel like these are the same things. For one, much of the feedback in this thread deals directly with staff and in the other thread it is directly an IC command which at least theoretically would be player/player.
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 25, 2022, 11:42:28 AM
Wanting to introduce an IC command != wanting less accountability/transparency in a situation where a very real power imbalance (often only exacerbated by the veneer of anonymity because you don't even truly know who is behind these actions when they are happening in game versus in the request tool - you can guess, but you can't be certain) is causing problems for some people? I mean, I get what you are saying, but I don't feel like these are the same things. For one, much of the feedback in this thread deals directly with staff and in the other thread it is directly an IC command which at least theoretically would be player/player.
As someone who once reported a commoner being locked in a PC nobles room being told I was good breeding material, along with the atmosphere, I was told by staff that the only foul play was my describing the situation as feeling like a rape threat. Sure, I buy that, I used the R word ic once....
But staff 100% turned a blind eye to it and laid the scolding on me.
I don't really have a lot of hope for hogties, snares and bindings bringing entirely positive to to the table, with or without staff oversight and rules.
Players will find ways to make anything shady on a long enough timeline.
Edited to add:
I'm not a fan of closed door pkill especially after my last one where two people of influence went in, the higher ranked one came out. And in my attempt to get staff aware I was cursed at by a producer. So, it's a thing.
Before it gets moderated, I'm happy to give staff links to both of these issues should they wish to revisit either of those instances with more than a closed request.
Quote from: Furious George on October 25, 2022, 11:49:02 AM
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 25, 2022, 11:42:28 AM
Wanting to introduce an IC command != wanting less accountability/transparency in a situation where a very real power imbalance (often only exacerbated by the veneer of anonymity because you don't even truly know who is behind these actions when they are happening in game versus in the request tool - you can guess, but you can't be certain) is causing problems for some people? I mean, I get what you are saying, but I don't feel like these are the same things. For one, much of the feedback in this thread deals directly with staff and in the other thread it is directly an IC command which at least theoretically would be player/player.
As someone who once reported a commoner being locked in a PC nobles room being told I was good breeding material, along with the atmosphere, I was told by staff that the only foul play was my describing the situation as feeling like a rape threat. Sure, I buy that, I used the R word ic once....
But staff 100% turned a blind eye to it and laid the scolding on me.
I don't really have a lot of hope for hogties, snares and bindings bringing entirely positive to to the table, with or without staff oversight and rules.
Players will find ways to make anything shady on a long enough timeline.
It didn't even remotely cross my mind that it could be used for those purposes. And I don't believe it will, if there is an explicit warning that this skill should not be used for any sexual content.
But if confidence in staff is so low that you think that this potential skill will mostly be allowed to be used for this very purpose... then I don't know what to say... I genuinely wonder why people will still play, then.
Maybe I'm just ignorant.
I'm against anything that hinders cooperate storytelling.
Quote from: Furious George on October 25, 2022, 12:13:09 PM
I'm against anything that hinders cooperate storytelling.
And that's what I had in mind with that request. Insta-kill will certainly not cooperate storytelling.
But we digress. Best to discuss this in the other thread?
Quote from: Furious George on October 25, 2022, 11:49:02 AM
As someone who once reported a commoner being locked in a PC nobles room being told I was good breeding material, along with the atmosphere, I was told by staff that the only foul play was my describing the situation as feeling like a rape threat. Sure, I buy that, I used the R word ic once....
But staff 100% turned a blind eye to it and laid the scolding on me.
When I was playing my Atrium leader I was very interested in driving plots that had a lot of creativity, subterfuge, and other exciting elements. I succeeded in creating a money laundering scheme via paintings. Nobles were bidding on my PC's paintings and sculptures - my PC had their plans turned into the largest public display in Allanak. (My PC is uncredited ICly, but yes the Oashi monument was Ellenoire's design. You'll also find a sculpture of Verenestra in the Oashi estate, and another sculpture in the Borsail estate.)
But what was the biggest plot for that PC? It wasn't that. It was the fact that a Templar had attempted to f**k my PC and she rejected him. That turned into me involving staff and then staff addressing said player, who followed up with a Way convo that had the words "I understand how I made you feel uncomfortable". This was in no uncertain terms that staff had simply slapped a wrist and the player decided to continue the plot of dominating my PC.
It became a murder plot as they attempted to assert their authority over my PC as a Templar, threatening to execute her. Then following through and attempting - only to be stopped by nobles (and their noble guards) in the Dome of all places. The Templar was later executed by a higher ranked ally of my PC.
I have played a few nobles, tons of leaders in most clans - and there is really nothing to address the ambiguous and often predatory nature of consent rules as they currently stand. You have no recourse as a player if you do not wish to play into these sex plots. You just don't. You die if you resist. My Atrium PC was the most politically powerful commoner in the city, perhaps ever, and it was astounding that she came out on top. But there's half a dozen examples from my own personal experience where this was not the case.
Consent is handled very poorly in this game because if you reject someone of a higher social status they can very easily punish you.
Can we mostly agree on the principle of: "Don't use sex as a weapon, even a political one (it's not the noughties anymore)?"
I started to type out ideas for enforcing this, but I'm not sure we actually have broad agreement here. The no-rape policy takes some pains to not go that far.
I'm interested in the idea of publicly linking PCs to forum accounts. We let folks do this in a limited way already, with (1) clan boards and (2) public event announcements (can anybody guess who Kestria plays? :) don't answer that).
Would there be a benefit in transparency and bonhomie? Would it increase OOC collusion?
Quote from: Is Friday on October 25, 2022, 01:19:43 PM
Quote from: Furious George on October 25, 2022, 11:49:02 AM
As someone who once reported a commoner being locked in a PC nobles room being told I was good breeding material, along with the atmosphere, I was told by staff that the only foul play was my describing the situation as feeling like a rape threat. Sure, I buy that, I used the R word ic once....
But staff 100% turned a blind eye to it and laid the scolding on me.
When I was playing my Atrium leader I was very interested in driving plots that had a lot of creativity, subterfuge, and other exciting elements. I succeeded in creating a money laundering scheme via paintings. Nobles were bidding on my PC's paintings and sculptures - my PC had their plans turned into the largest public display in Allanak. (My PC is uncredited ICly, but yes the Oashi monument was Ellenoire's design. You'll also find a sculpture of Verenestra in the Oashi estate, and another sculpture in the Borsail estate.)
But what was the biggest plot for that PC? It wasn't that. It was the fact that a Templar had attempted to f**k my PC and she rejected him. That turned into me involving staff and then staff addressing said player, who followed up with a Way convo that had the words "I understand how I made you feel uncomfortable". This was in no uncertain terms that staff had simply slapped a wrist and the player decided to continue the plot of dominating my PC.
It became a murder plot as they attempted to assert their authority over my PC as a Templar, threatening to execute her. Then following through and attempting - only to be stopped by nobles (and their noble guards) in the Dome of all places. The Templar was later executed by a higher ranked ally of my PC.
I have played a few nobles, tons of leaders in most clans - and there is really nothing to address the ambiguous and often predatory nature of consent rules as they currently stand. You have no recourse as a player if you do not wish to play into these sex plots. You just don't. You die if you resist. My Atrium PC was the most politically powerful commoner in the city, perhaps ever, and it was astounding that she came out on top. But there's half a dozen examples from my own personal experience where this was not the case.
Consent is handled very poorly in this game because if you reject someone of a higher social status they can very easily punish you.
This is part of the reason I believe Armageddon should absolutely be eighteen plus because we're are grown adults in our thirties struggling with some of the IC and OOC sexual interactions. A sixteen or seventeen year old should not be navigating in or anywhere near these waters under any circumstances.
I find anyone advocating to play this game of sex, drugs, murder and betrayal with high school kids to be alarming.
Quote from: Bebop on October 25, 2022, 02:15:31 PM
I find anyone advocating to play this game of sex, drugs, murder and betrayal with high school kids to be alarming.
Preach.
I think it's also important to mention that I have been on every side of the conflict that has caused players harm from overly grotesque plots. I've played the slave, the noble, the murderer, the victim, the abused, the abuser, and everything in between. Often times these "adult" themed plots were pushed by staff, which would illicit a kind of approval to a naïve, immature or uneducated mind. Surely, this is okay? Staff-run NPCs are telling my PC to do something. When you're young - you really don't know better.
With something so immersive and addictive as ArmMUD that's really dangerous for peoples' health. Especially when any form of after-care is actively discouraged and you are banned for talking through events. You're left isolated, angry, alone, and without recourse when you've been wronged. Often when you've wronged others you're left in the dark about it - so you continue abusive behavior to others.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 25, 2022, 02:12:27 PM
I'm interested in the idea of publicly linking PCs to forum accounts. We let folks do this in a limited way already, with (1) clan boards and (2) public event announcements (can anybody guess who Kestria plays? :) don't answer that).
Would there be a benefit in transparency and bonhomie? Would it increase OOC collusion?
I like the idea a lot. I think possibly the biggest argument against it other than that at least some people may wish to retain anonymity (which I don't mind if you don't want yourself known, don't make yourself known) might be that it might reveal when your character is dead, or stored in the sense that however it is linked, the name? (picture? whatever?) might be updated before it is commonly known, and while again I don't think that is something that should be taken IC (literally just give it 2-3 IC weeks, oftentimes that's all it takes for a pc who is around all the time to be missing before you can reasonably conclude they are dead), I get how some people might be tempted to metagame that, and how that might cause problems in some way shape or form down the road. That said? When you are trying to coordinate between multiple sponsored roles without endless OOCs for something like a festival and you aren't necessarily on all at the same time, or even sponsored and nonsponsored roles (Arabet, for example, as one clan that recently had an auction at an IC event that was no doubt done by a nonsponsored role), it would definitely make it easier to get in touch with one another without endless Way tag and hurry up and wait, if you can just set up times to try and be about for meetings if you aren't usually on at the same times, etc.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 25, 2022, 02:06:08 PMThe no-rape policy takes some pains to not go that far.
Not only does it take pains not to go that far, it was brought up at the time that people might be pressured by higher ranking PCs, and was actively rejected as a circumstance the policy was designed to cover. I'm not as good at search strings on my phone while standing by the only window at work where I get two bars of reception, but I'm sure someone can find that discourse. The current helpfile is extremely outdated in terms of modern concepts of consent.
I believe it boiled down to "Rape by Authority" or coercive was too nebulous to directly police. Such as, say, your Aide is locked in a room with the Templar you serve, and its heavily implied that you cannot leave alive unless you perform a sexual act.
It was not brutal. It was not bloody. It was not emoted as 'forced', but the implication is "Do it or you can never leave".
I'm not saying staff advocate this kind of plot specifically, and we all know in a gritty environment that abuse of power exists, but on a PERSONAL level? Anyone who takes the sexual roleplay of the game to that level is not someone I'm comfortable playing with, whether they be a Templar or an indie dune trader.
It's really, really not that hard to play people in authority positions who NEVER use their authority to coerce sex. Like...It's a choice. It's a choice to make your PC that way. This excuse of 'Well it's what the character would do' is BS.
Those that do, or think it's a neat plot device, or think 'that's what my character would do' likely should not be allowed near roles of authority (Templar, GMH Family, Noble). Period.
If someone files a player complaint about an authority figure PC doing that, shows logs, and says it makes them uncomfortable, that authority PC should be brought upstairs, told why that is not cool, and then stored. I've seen a few examples of the 'wrist slap' of offending templars and nobles and it's not only insulting, it's contributing to a culture of protection of predatory behavior.
It's hard enough to play a Templar, or a Noble. Why make your life even weirder and harder by pursuing these plots and style of RP? Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal can all be achieved while leaving coercing sexual relationships from people in lower political standing from you out of the picture entirely.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 25, 2022, 04:59:59 PM
It's really, really not that hard to play people in authority positions who NEVER use their authority to coerce sex. Like...It's a choice. It's a choice to make your PC that way. This excuse of 'Well it's what the character would do' is BS.
Those that do, or think it's a neat plot device, or think 'that's what my character would do' likely should not be allowed near roles of authority (Templar, GMH Family, Noble). Period.
If someone files a player complaint about an authority figure PC doing that, shows logs, and says it makes them uncomfortable, that authority PC should be brought upstairs, told why that is not cool, and then stored. I've seen a few examples of the 'wrist slap' of offending templars and nobles and it's not only insulting, it's contributing to a culture of protection of predatory behavior.
It's hard enough to play a Templar, or a Noble. Why make your life even weirder and harder by pursuing these plots and style of RP? Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal can all be achieved while leaving coercing sexual relationships from people in lower political standing from you out of the picture entirely.
Can vouch that what Reiloth says is true and they excel at it. It's really not that hard.
I have to say I do not envy the job of Arm staff. I think the words of the creator of Circle mud can speak for me here.
Quote
So, you want to run your own MUD, huh?
If you're already an old hand at playing MUDs and you've decided you want to start one of your own, here's my advice: take a valium, lie down, and hide in a dark closet until the desire goes away. Just playing MUDs is masochistic enough, isn't it? Or are you trying to shave that extra point off your GPA, jump down that one last notch on your next job evaluation, or get rid of that pesky Significant Other for good? If you think silly distractions like having friends and seeing daylight are preventing you from realizing your full potential in the MUD world, MUD Administrator is the job for you.
Don't get me wrong: running a production MUD can be great fun. It can also be overburdened by politics and plagued by spiteful players devoted to making your life difficult, and otherwise be a highly frustrating endeavour. That's why I don't do it any more.
My point is that a little empathy can go a long way.
We used to have leaders who couldn't fuck their underlings. Both nobles and templars Tuluk, once, and it was axed because of people I don't care to name lest this threat gets a third person banned.
Since this is a policy changed as recently as last year, I don't see this sort of thing changing anytime soon. It is what it is.
And you believe that this change was enacted so nobility could force their underlings into sex?
Quote from: Patuk on October 25, 2022, 07:48:35 PM
We used to have leaders who couldn't fuck their underlings. ... Since this is a policy changed as recently as last year, I don't see this sort of thing changing anytime soon. It is what it is.
We could still ban sponsored roles (at least) from engaging in coercive sex RP or punishing someone who turns them down.
It's not about banning sex for PCs, it's about people behind the keyboards understanding that coercion isn't consent and using critical thinking skills to not put people that you have power over into sexually compromising situations with a quick OOC consent for torture or something to that extent? Some people like playing out power dynamics, but some people don't understand the difference between harassment. I think the implication too that staff has been behind some of these things and the power further shifted is more of a frustration for some. In some of the examples I gave in the past I feel like my consent was implicitly ignored and staff didn't really back me on that. And then there is... as I mentioned, the policy that despite all of these mature topics and the mature very not PG-13 nature of the game... underage people are allowed to play.
Haldol's Post, Part 1Someone asked for the opinion of a Storyteller (or maybe it was a non-Producer staff?). I don't recall, but I'll give you some of my thoughts. These are only my thoughts and not the official policy of the game or any other staff member's.
To begin, allow me to introduce who I am. I started playing Armageddon in 1993. The first time I ever got on the internet was to learn to play Armageddon (not email, porn, stolen music, or a Netscape search). I had already learned about the game through a college friend who played in high school. However, my college didn't have internet so it was just a distant curiosity. When the internet arrived, my friend showed me the game and I was immediately hooked. For the last 29 years, I've played both as a player and sometimes as a staff member. I consider myself a player of the game who helps out by being a staff member. My goal is to have fun for myself and my fellow players.
Next, I want to remind us all what Armageddon is and should be. You can remind yourself here. (https://www.armageddon.org/) This game is an RPI MUD set in the harshest of environments with PERMANENT DEATH. The banner promises murder, corruption, and betrayal. When you make a character and play the game, you should understand that your character is MOST LIKELY going to die and quite possibly not on your own terms, timing, or as you'd like. I'm not posting this to be a smart ass (though it may seem that way) but to seriously remind us that this is not a fair game. Some characters at their start (like nobles and templars) will be more powerful or influential than many characters can ever achieve. The game is built this way with imbalance, injustice, and inequality.
Now that we're all reminded of the Armageddon setting and its harshness, I think everyone wants to play this game by the same set of rules. Everyone wants to be treated equally within the game such that if any other player did the same things with their character as you did with yours, the outcome would be the same. That's the perfect system. I strive for that as a staff member and believe everyone else on the staff feels the same. However, that is not life. We're all humans. Sometimes people just don't get along. We've likely all had two friends that don't get along with each other for what seems like no good reason. Sometimes this can happen between a player and a staff member.
This leads to a very reasonable request. Why can't I choose the staff member with whom I wish to interact? The reason is simply logistics. I'm on the southern team and run the Allanaki Templars and the Steel Talons. I play about 10 - 15 hours a week as a staff member. If a Tuluki templar requested switching from their staff to me (which might seem very reasonable), I couldn't do a good job of it. I've never played a Tuluki templar. I have not read all the new Tuluk documentation. I do not regularly monitor or interact with PCs in Tuluk. I doubt I could name 5 Tuluki PCs right now. Adding a Tuluki templar to my oversight would drain a lot of time from the area I already work and I don't think I'd do a good job.
As I said, I think of myself as a player before a staff member. Much like all of you, I have had two staff members (no longer on staff) with whom I didn't get along. How did I deal with it? I just played in different areas and everything was fine. If they switched areas, I'd move away on my next PC. That's my suggestion. If that doesn't work, just don't join the clans that they are over. That's my advice.
I read much of the feedback in this thread, but I didn't read all of it.
I noticed that many, Many,
MANY times some players tell a story from their perspective without complete knowledge and make inaccurate assumptions that fuel feelings of unfairness, staff abuse, or some other complaint. I'd like to share with you a plot from over ten years ago. Here is, in my opinion, a great PC-driven plot. (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56278.msg1053507.html#msg1053507)
Now that you've read it. I want to dissect this plot and show how it COULD spiral from a PC-driven plot into assumptions of a staff-fueled story of PC abuse.
QuoteThe original goal of this character was to become a "master burglar". I decided to make a half-elven burglar named Bok and give it a try. I started in Tuluk and soon found myself unable to find employment and unable to find a lock pick. Eventually, I stole a kank outside a store and used it to collect herbs from the eastern grasslands. I generally avoided combat. As I found more herbs and my haggling improved, I was able to generate a reasonable profit. At the time, most rogues dressed in all black and wore footpads. I decided to try a different approach. I purchased lightweight but fancy hunting armor. I started calling myself a hunter. Eventually, I purchased a longbow and quiver. I even added a few arrows for added realism. People started asking me to hunt things for them. I accepted the jobs. However, I didn't hunt anything. Instead, I purchased hides and skins from the markets usually selling them to PCs at a loss. It didn't matter because I was expanding my herb business. As a half-elf, I became a talented rider and started exporting grassland herbs to Luir's then the elven outpost. Eventually, I learned to cross the Red Desert. With multiple mounts and hard riding, I was able to avoid the gith and export herbs to Allanak.
It starts fairly simple. A half-elven burglar wants to become a master burglar in Tuluk, but instead winds up pretending to be a ranger and makes coins as an herb trader.
QuoteBusiness was soon booming. The Tuluki needed things from Allanak and vice-versa. Eventually, I rented apartments in both Allanak and Tuluk. I soon found myself as what would later be called a "wealthy independent". I expanded my business into information. I sold rumors to both city-state merchants and many noble's aides. Selling secrets was easy money and had a 100% profit margin.
Bok is starting to become a "player" and in both city-states. That's a dangerous game. However, it can also be a lot of fun. I suggest everyone try playing a spy at least once. It's a lot of fun even when you fail.
QuoteI finally acquired a lock pick! I looked everywhere trying to find a lock I could actually pick. It was a monumental task, but eventually, I found a lock I could practice unlocking without a key. As I got better, I found better locks and learned to open them as well. Eventually, there wasn't an apartment that I couldn't break into with my lock pick. I soon learned that being a burglar was like being a shepherd. You can't over thin your flock or you'll be left with nothing.
Whenever your apartment gets robbed, it's almost ALWAYS done by another player. I've never heard of a staff member animating an NPC and robbing a PC's apartment. Not once.
QuoteBok was already wealthy, so I only took unique or exotic things. I started following rich PCs to learn where they lived, only to strike their apartments later. However, while shadowing a wealthy noble's aide in Tuluk, I accidentally followed her into a new barracks that I didn't know existed. She promptly quit the game, leaving me stranded inside the barracks. I waited inside still hiding until another PC arrived. However, I was discovered before following him outside the barracks. Soon I was captured by NPC guards. A PC noble and PC Jihaen templar were summoned and I was interrogated at length...
Finally, Bok finds a little drama. What if Bok wished up and said, "I accidentally shadowed a PC into this barracks. They logged out. Can someone let me out? I wouldn't have done it if I'd had enough time to react." From my perspective as a staff member, I think this is a gray area. I'd be fine with letting them out. I'd be fine with having the NPC guards capture Bok. I LOVE that the outcome was placed into the hands of other PCs (the noble and templar). Let the PCs run the story and I think these PCs did a great job. However, I can also see how some players of Bok might not want to be captured, or interrogated, and feel they should have never been placed in this predicament. Some players always store when something goes wrong. They are cheating themselves of the full Armageddon experience. After Bok's wish, what if the player submits a staff complaint? How should it be handled? If the outcome isn't to their liking, what should that player do? Can you see how this is a gray area? Can you see it's a difficult thing to answer? Can you see how there can be more than one reasonable answer? If I polled more than a dozen current staff members, I'd wager the answers would vary. That's life. The outcome might come down to opinion and who's online that day. Please don't take these situations personally. We, as staff, just want to make the world react in a realistic manner to push much of the story back to the PCs to finish. That's what I like to do.
QuoteIt would have been completely within the rights of the PC noble and PC templar to promptly execute poor Bok. He was a thief and had been caught breaking into the barracks of a prominent noble house. That might have been the case. However, I decided to beg for my life. I promised to do whatever they want if they'd just let me live. To my surprise, they gave me a dangerous assignment. I would be exiled from Tuluk until I assassinated a specific beautiful and long-lived Lady Borsail. In addition, I would spy for the Jihaen templar and give him regular reports via the Way.
I give major props to the PC noble and templar here. Personally, I like pushing stories that (when possible) avoid the death of another PC, especially on the first infraction. However, the PCs got to make the choices here. It would be fine if they'd killed poor Bok, right? You don't break into a noble's barracks. If Bok was executed here, could he make a player complaint? What should the outcome be? What if Bok's player gets mad and quits? What should the staff do (if anything)? In the end, I think things worked out perfectly.
Haldol's Post, Part 2QuoteSo I was released and exiled from Tuluk, I headed immediately south. When I arrived in Allanak, I wondered how would I kill such a prominent noble? I couldn't even kill a gith. I decided to learn everything I could about my target. The news wasn't good. It turned out the Lady Borsail was quite long-lived despite her youthful appearance and beauty. Worse she rarely left the Borsail estate. When she did, she was surrounded by retainers, both NPC and PC it seemed. While watching her across the Trader's Inn, I counted 5 guards protecting her. As just a burglar, I was never going to survive a direct assault against her guards and the assisting soldiers. I felt like I'd been given an impossible task. However, I don't store characters. I decided to keep calm and carry on.
Lots of players would store here. I love that Bok didn't.
QuoteDuring this time, I regularly reported to both the Tuluki PC noble and the Tuluki PC templar that had exiled me. As time passed, I must have proved my worth because to my surprise they pardoned me as long as I continued reporting and working on killing the Lady Borsail. Soon I was making money again and decided I needed help if I was to ever kill the Lady Borsail. However, making trusted friends as a half-elf isn't easy. However, there are natural allies for thieves if one knows where to look. For Bok, these allies would be the gemmed. I started using my wealth to help the lowly gemmed of Allanak. I paid them to do simple things and obtained rare things they desired. Eventually, I befriended a very talented Whiran. This would prove to be the break I needed. Working with a Whiran, I was able to steal some very interesting things and make even more money.
This is an interesting twist. It just goes to show that useful servants can earn surprising rewards not available to other commoners. Another player might complain that they didn't get the same treatment as Bok when they were caught stealing. However, they don't know all that's transpired. What if they complain about the PC templar? What should the staff do? How much should they explain? If they say too much it might ruin the rest of the story. The spread of OOC knowledge is one of the most potent plot killers. This is Armageddon. It's not a fair game. You don't know the whole story for a long time. That's what makes the game both great and maddening.
QuoteWith the extra coins, I started playing with a skill that no longer exists in the game, trap. A simple explanation is that you'd use smoke powder to make things explode. You could close and trap a mailbox. When someone opened it, the trap went off and injured them. However, there was a catch. When you failed, the trap blasted you. I spent tens of thousands of sids building and experimenting with traps. One day, by accident, I built a very devastating trap. When I mishandled it, I was nearly killed. However, that which does not kill us makes us stronger. I theorized that I could make a trap so powerful that it would kill whoever opened it.
I miss trap. Maybe one day I'll talk the Producers into bringing it back! Who's with me? *emote grins mischievously*
QuoteRisking life and limb, I built my first super trap. Having succeeded, I needed to test it. Now, I admit this was cruel, but I needed answers. I went to the market and bought a kank load of gear. I headed out and found a spot on the North Road. There I sprinkled and arranged the gear all over the road, leaving my kank, and my super trap. I climbed over the side of the Shield Wall, did my best to hide, and watched to see what happened. Eventually, an unlucky dwarf rode up and found what he must have thought was the remains of a gith raid. He collected everything, including my super trap. He opened it. Boom, he was dead. I rode back to Allanak with two mounts and a dwarf load of salvaged gear.
Bok, you bastard! You just blasted away an innocent dwarf. Other players are often the cruelest opponents. What if the dwarf complained? Should Bok be OOCly punished? What should the staff do? Should this plot end here? No, it's Armageddon and sometimes the game is randomly cruel. That's my opinion. I could be wrong.
QuoteNow, I had the skill and knowledge to kill. I also had the perfect plan. I had lamented many times of the impossibility of assassinating the Lady Borsail. This time I reported to the Tuluki noble and templar that I had a plan and would strike within the next few weeks. Of course, I mentioned how dangerous it would be and that I might never contact them again. They must have spread the word because the next day I was contacted by a different Tuluki templar. This one wore a white robe. She claimed to have been following my progress and told me that if I succeeded. I would receive a bounty of 20k. Cha-ching!
Another plot twist from another PC templar who wants to kill another PC noble in another city. Politics is a dangerous beast.
QuoteI staked out the Trader's Inn for days waiting to spot my mark. Eventually, she arrived to sit at her usual table. I bolted back to my apartment. I changed into my super stealthy ninja suit. I spiced up. I contacted my gemmed friend and went into my best super stealth mode. I grabbed my super trap and headed back to the Trader's Inn. I peered inside. There she was, heavily guarded by her full entourage. I wished up to warn the staff. Then I slipped into the Trader's Inn, whispered into the Lady Borsail's ear, and handed her my super trap. Then I bolted in a strange stealthy pattern around the city, trying best to lose any future hunters, before returning to my apartment. I put up my barrier, drew my best tainted blades, and hid in the corner for a full in-game day. The next day, I walked by the Trader's Inn, peeking inside. To my delight, I spotted the bartender, now on his hands and knees, cleaning a large crimson stain off the floor. I couldn't contact the Lady Borsail. I hit the bars. Word was spreading. I had assassinated the Lady Borsail.
Nice work Bok. However, I bet the player of the Lady Borsail was devastated by this assassination. A beloved and long-lived PC noble blown to pieces in an instant. Could she file a player complaint? Maybe she thinks it was a bug? What should the staff do? What should be explained? What should be left in the dark? How will this player handle this? How would you feel? Does this player feel they were abused by staff or not getting adequate communication? Lots of questions with lots of different answers.
QuoteI returned to Tuluk at the invitation of the white-robed templar. She greeted me with her loyal bard who carried a metal sword. We went for tea in the Heart. I told her the story of my assassination of the Lady Borsail, only leaving out the bit about my Whiran friend. I expected to receive my reward and continue as a loyal Tuluki minion. However, I was instead subdued, tortured, and executed by the templar, her half-giant guards, and the bard with the metal sword.
I didn't expect this to happen. If I were the PC templar, I might not have paid the bounty, but I'd have kept a deadly, useful henchman. However, I didn't play the PC templar. Templars can kill people. They don't need to be fair or even reasonable. What if Bok complained? How should it be handled? What should the staff say to the PC templar (if anything)? Maybe the player of Bok doesn't know the whole story. Maybe the original PC noble is bribing the PC templar to remove any loose ends. We just don't know. That's Armageddon. Playing a character like Bok is what Armageddon is supposed to be in my book. He experienced the joy of incredible triumph and the agony of unexpected defeat. This is the story and feeling you don't get watching a movie or reading a novel. It's what has kept me playing the same game for almost 30 years. I thank you all for making it possible and making this game so great. I applaud all the players new and old, current and retired, for allowing me to have so much fun.
QuoteHowever, she made a critical mistake. Unknown to her, Bok made more than one super trap. He kept another inside his backpack as revenge just in case he was ever betrayed. After Bok's death, it took me a while before making another PC because I'd grown quite attached to him. When I eventually arrived in Tuluk with my next PC, I was delighted to read on the IC board that a certain bard wielding a metal blade had been blown to pieces in a tragic accident. Karma, like an angry white-robed Tuluki, can be a real bitch.
This seems too good to be true, but it really did happen. Revenge is a dish best served cold, right? Could the bard complain? Maybe it was a miskey? What should the staff do? Should he get a resurrection? I don't think so. Armageddon is a cruel mistress, even when you have a bronze sword.
As far as I know, Bok's story really happened in the game and required no staff assistance. It was a 100% completely player-original and player-run plot. Was it fair? No. Was it just? No. Was there murder? Yes. Was there corruption? Yes. Was there betrayal? Yes. It's a classic Armageddon story.
When you read the story, can you see how players might make incorrect assumptions? Can you see how feelings might get hurt? Can you empathize with all those that lost their beloved characters?
As a staff member, I'm trying to help generate more great stories. I don't know how you'll fit into the next. Will you be the dwarf? Bok? One of the templars? The poor Lady Borsail? I don't know, but I hope you'll have fun along the way.
I hope players like Is Friday, Delirium, and Ender return in the future. I'd love to play the game with you again in the future. However, this post is really for players who are playing the game. I want to give you a glimpse of the (sometimes difficult) choices staff can face and how sometimes there can be more than one good answer. I've been on staff three times now. In all the years of playing the game, I believe the current group of staff members is the best I've ever seen. The days of having your character killed for making a wish are long gone. There are better rules, better documentation, and better oversight. Armageddon is a huge game with a huge history. Please be patient as things slowly change (for the better I think). You have to learn to ride the elephant. You can't push it.
Anyway, this took me almost two hours to research, write, and proofread. Now, I need to get back upstairs to the office with the other staff members and get those plots rolling.
(https://media.tenor.com/DZou-vQ_7EUAAAAC/the-office-dwight-schrute.gif)
Is that really staff's line here? Players are just making incorrect assumptions? Is that it?
Honestly a staffer posting rose colored glasses stories really tracks with the key problem here: the system is literally reinforcing tradition and conservatism over progress.
Haldol did not say this was the official stance of the staff though. It's their view and just like staff has respected our views, we should respect their. If I am not wrong, they're a storyteller, so it's not their place to answer about complaints on other staffers or overarching policy. I also want a response on what is being done to improve OOC communication and make sure abusive behavior is not happening on those channels. I am troubled that players I have witnessed as players and were pretty good experienced these things.
But I don't think Haldol's response is part of the problem and they were very clear this is not a response on the staff's policy, which most of you know is the responsibility of higher-ranked staffers. I appreciate their POV, I agree it's not answering to the main problem, but it's good information on why some of the suggestions in this thread is impractical.
This whole thread has become incredibly sad.
I've seen nothing in here driving the needle back to wanting to play again because everything is fixed or there is some sort of community understanding.
However, from the playerbase side...this thread allowed me to speak to a player I'd had some recent bad blood and history with, we communicated as adults, and made our apologies with an open discussion and both came away (I think) feeling better about our PCs at the time, the decisions made, but....not the staff's handling of it.
We adulted, got it out of the system and moved on.
This might be a missing piece of the puzzle from staff to player:. Personal empathy to the discussed experience.
Haldol just described at the end that gives him a workload that leaves him unaware of most of the playerbase's characters names, much less their motivations. If the player doesn't report in, irregardless of location, staff might have no idea wtf you're doing with your character. However, on the flip side, it's like admitting your head is in the sand.
I quit playing because my last straw has to be my last straw, or it will just make me nuts. There's no outreach, conversation nor discussion when it feels personal most of the time, just closed requests, moderation or colored bullet points in your wall of a report that doesn't match your time investment on submitting the thing.
Maybe I'm in a minority, that literally every response I get from one or two staffers SEEMS TO ME (as in my opinion) to either be threatening or condescending.
I too showed up in 1993. It was a lot of fun, sometimes, a lot of headaches, absolutely, but now, all these years later, I'm just kind of wondering what, at the end, I even got out of it aside from random 'one time at band camp' stories that I can share with maybe 3 people in this world because to anyone else it sounds insane.
This is a long thread that I've promised myself I'll only read at work, time I've dedicated to being annoyed with something not work related, but I'm only seeing more stories like mine. While that's reassuring as a person, it doesn't fill me with hope for the future.
Quote from: deskoft on October 26, 2022, 02:08:28 AM
Haldol did not say this was the official stance of the staff though. It's their view and just like staff has respected our views, we should respect their. If I am not wrong, they're a storyteller, so it's not their place to answer about complaints on other staffers or overarching policy. I also want a response on what is being done to improve OOC communication and make sure abusive behavior is not happening on those channels. I am troubled that players I have witnessed as players and were pretty good experienced these things.
But I don't think Haldol's response is part of the problem and they were very clear this is not a response on the staff's policy, which most of you know is the responsibility of higher-ranked staffers. I appreciate their POV, I agree it's not answering to the main problem, but it's good information on why some of the suggestions in this thread is impractical.
A post that is "really for players who are playing the game" as Haldol put it is a bit jarring in a thread that exists to collect concerns from players that don't play anymore. It's not like Haldol's response doesn't have a place on the GDB - it certainly does, and it was useful to get Haldol's perspective to understand how staff see the game. I just don't think that the place for that post is after two or three pages of players talking about the abuses they suffered at the hands of current/former staff. I think staff still need to reply to those concerns, and it's understandable that a storyteller can't speak to those concerns specifically, but someone has to. The people replying to Haldol's post, I think, just want to keep the previous discussion on track.
It also goes to great lengths to point out it's about rising above the perception of ic abuse by staff to solder forward...
Unfortunately the abused being referenced and ill feelings that keep coming up are from staff's responses ooc that are more damaging.
It's easy to deal with your PC being abused somehow if you aren't dealing with replies to reports that actually clear up the issue. Instead it is sometimes delivered like gas and matches with terse replies, massive gaps in discussion or worse.
It's disingenuous to believe it's all tied to how mean npcs are.
Quote from: Dar on October 25, 2022, 07:55:46 PM
And you believe that this change was enacted so nobility could force their underlings into sex?
No.
Quote from: Haldol on October 25, 2022, 11:36:41 PM
Haldol's Post, Part 1.
I noticed that many, Many, MANY times some players tell a story from their perspective without complete knowledge and make inaccurate assumptions that fuel feelings of unfairness, staff abuse, or some other complaint.
There are certain phrases so overused they now have about as much value as the currency of a 3rd world country. One is "Find out IC". Another is referring to yourself as "volunteer". They've become so cliché they're best avoided even when they make sense to use.
And we can add to that list any variation of: "there's more happening behind the scenes than you know". Stated once or twice it sounds like well, okay, fair enough. Players lack the bird's eye view staff possess. So, okay. But stated repeatedly over many years (as has become the case) and it starts to sound more like "we know more than you ever could so shut up and trust our word. We're right and you're wrong".
When you begin to realize how these sort of stock phrases sound after repeated use, the best course of action is to find a different way of explaining the situation. Otherwise don't be surprised when players think you're just being a complete asshat even if in your mind you're genuinely trying to help.
.
Quote from: Barsook on October 26, 2022, 06:47:16 AMdeleted quote
I don't think you meant to open the door of victim blaming/shaming, you don't come across that way, but this could be read that way.
The mud has had to evolve more in the last few years, socially, than it did the previous like 20 combined. It's an unenviable task for staff, so a lot of it has taken time and effort... however there's a long way to go
I took it back, sorry.
On one side, coming from experience of moderating other online roleplaying games, it seems absurd the concept of staff not having idea what is going on in the wider game, and this was frustrating, but I came to realize it's not laziness or being overly attached to the prospects of a group of clans, but actually helps stop that potential because the NPC leaders can only react with what they would know IC, and seems like it's a safeguard against the issue of "super players" that the game has apparently had in the past - which, well, its not unique to Armageddon, it's a human problem that every online roleplaying game gets in the early stages when working out systems of trust and policies, where now staff seem to have higher standards, it seems like anyway.
Barsook, from reading your posts I'm pretty sure you mean well and didn't think that through, but that that is just like nitroglycerin to the fire, it's attacking a whole segment of players of all different viewpoints. Being (virtually) sexually active or putting effort into one's (virtual) appearance are not the same as "Wanting to get in trouble", that sounds way too much like "She was asking for it." This reminds me of an author who got complaints about including sex scenes, so she wrote more in. The fact that sex is seen so negatively by some people is more reason that it's a good thing for people to be engaging with the concepts around it in fiction, so that people understand the issues better in the real world.
On the Discord chat someone named in the main room one of the Templars engaging in the "I have weapons that can kill you instantly/go into this locked or guarded door and hi, me horny" Weinsten-esque stuff, and Halaster saying that those kind of behaviors from Templars would not be acceptable now, I am guessing there might be an official post coming, but it was said. So that's good.
There's something important to be said here, too, about Armageddon's setting - it's bleak, and features unfortunate aspects of human nature as well as elements of history that we're all familiar with and don't agree with, but that's part of what makes it so powerful as a setting. When Zalanthas was created by the founders, I don't know exactly what happened in those early days but obviously it's well known one of the leading figures was obviously Sanvean - And she, and the others who helped, deliberately took many of the stereotypes that these games had at the time and turned them on their head. Completely equal rights and abilities regardless of gender or color, and discrimination explicitly stated to be not a concept that exists in the lore of Zalanthas, and the roleplay being enforced to respect that. Way, way, ahead of her time in so many ways, to give people a vision of what a better humanity could be like, even in extreme adversity, that there's still hope that people can do better.
Quote from: Armageddon.orgGender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she/they, etc.). The genders are all equal on Zalanthas.
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; different genders are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.
Quote from: Armageddon.orgHumans, for instance, distrust elves, and elves, in return, view humans as inferior. However, racism, in the modern sense, is non-existent in Zalanthas.
Dungeons and dragons was mentioned as being... Somehow better? But well... Compare
what she is doing today,
to where they are now? (lol it looks like a parody almost) Dungeons and dragons has almost no audience outside America, it's just not really had much of a cultural impact on most of the world, and likely never will as awareness of it fades. Armageddon on the other hand has an incredible mix of people of all backgrounds, and people have consistently noted that the emphasis on roleplay attracts more people, especially women, that would not be involved in those type of numbers-and-statistics-heavy games normally (because it makes them BORING). I think we've seen it growing as a game, and there's hope.
Would just like to point out that I run D&D professionally and I host a very diverse clientele from around the world.
Sure, I bet it's not very many, though?
Quote from: Abaya on October 26, 2022, 09:10:54 AM
Dungeons and dragons was mentioned as being... Somehow better? But well... Compare what she is doing (http://www.kittywumpus.net/blog/zalanthas/) today, to where they are now (https://www.instagram.com/tsr_museum)? (lol it looks like a parody almost) Dungeons and dragons has almost no audience outside America, it's just not really had much of a cultural impact on most of the world, and likely never will as awareness of it fades.
Dungeons and Dragons awareness did fade, and really only made a 'slight' resurgence with the streaming world and the ability to bring your game to other people. Its not "international" because up until like 2017, Wizards of the Coast didn't localize any of the rulebooks or editions. Its disingenuous to say "ha ha Dungeons and Dragons will go away".
Quote from: Abaya on October 26, 2022, 09:10:54 AM
When Zalanthas was created by the founders, I don't know exactly what happened in those early days but obviously it's well known one of the leading figures was obviously Sanvean - And she, and the others who helped, deliberately took many of the stereotypes that these games had at the time and turned them on their head. Completely equal rights and abilities regardless of gender or color, and discrimination explicitly stated to be not a concept that exists in the lore of Zalanthas, and the roleplay being enforced to respect that.
Zalanthas was adapted from Athas, and I'm wondering if you were around during even the ISCA days to know how it was 'created'. We all love Cat, she is the mother/grandmother/deity we all wish we had... but... she did not create the game. She created the Gypsies (Tan Muark) and gave them water slides and iron cooking pots and gave one of the NPCs the objective sdesc descriptor "handsome". She also famously (?) had a character with the sdesc "the man with the funny pants". The game was different.
The setting is bleak. Your characters will get into bad situations. Players of characters whose situations are/were doomed from the start don't react well to the death, but there are things that COULD be done to alleviate that. There are things that ARE done that exacerbate it. Veterans that are not playing were asked why. They have tried to explain why. There were emotions thrown all around.
I might suggest to all the "yeah but" people out there to just listen. Me included. Listen to what people are saying and absorb it. Not every point requires your input.
I was one of the ones that left too, for what it's worth, figured it was obvious but probably worth saying - yeah I'm not one of you elder players, but I feel strongly about all this stuff too, but what I am trying to say is I think there's hope. I think everyone is trying to be better more. I'll shut up!
I really don't wanna derail this thread any further but to compare D&D and MUDs is unwise. Armageddon is a very niche game, MUDs at their peak had maybe 100,000 players playing thousands of games in the 90s and early 2000's, that number is far far less these days. D&D on the other hand is far more main stream, its got millions of players.
https://dungeonvault.com/how-many-dnd-players-are-there-worldwide/
There is nothing productive gained in comparing a MUD to anything main stream. Neither one is better than the other, it's just what people choose to do as a hobby with their free time.
Always check your sources, or you'll end up like those founders of dungeons & dragons and screaming at people that they can't wear masks because it's a conspiracy... There's no mention of where those numbers came from, and it all seems to originate from companies trying to advertise themselves (probably using the topmudsites method of just padding out when feel like it, because no one is checking), including that website
I've never heard much talk about dungeons and dragons until playing Armageddon, it just doesn't really come up in most modern chat/forums for most online roleplaying games. I think it's probably something that is more a thing that people who already like it like, but definitely not mainstream in the way online games are.
Yeah won't go offtopic anymore
Wizards of the Coast themselves have released the data. They estimate 50 million players in 2020. I'm not exactly sure what kind of source you want? The creators of the game have the data on how many D&D books they sell worldwide. What possible source could satisfy your skepticism? If your argument is that there isn't that many people playing D&D, or that MUDs are somehow more popular that's just not true, sorry.
Here's the infographic released by WOTC:
https://gamerant.com/dungeons-and-dragons-infographic-2021/
You literally just linked marketing material direct from a company lol! Don't blindly trust sources without proof of being unbiased :)
It is slightly concerning that, in a thread where players are stating they don't often feel heard, you're demanding information that conforms to what your opinion on "true facts" are.
Who else, but the company that owns a product, would have the information on how many units are sold?
Who else. but the player who felt abused or mistreated, would have the information on why they felt that way?
Who else, but the staffer who is accused of something, would have the information on what they did to defend themselves?
What?
Usually when you want to get a statistic for something, an independent party carries out research, you don't just trust some random corporation's press release - As abusive as some companies are with the truth, it seems a bit demeaning to compare that abuse. With abuse people know exactly what happened and how it happened. And evidence is obvious how it was collected, without opaqueness.
Critical Role, a podcast where people play D&D has like 17 mill viewers. Every MMMORPG is based either completely, or distantly on D&D. Europe has their own version of D&D that has nothing to do with Wizards of the Coast.
How is this freaking relevant to people playing Armageddon?
Quote from: Abaya on October 26, 2022, 12:52:52 PM
Usually when you want to get a statistic for something, an independent party carries out research, you don't just trust some random corporation's press release - As abusive as some companies are with the truth, it seems a bit demeaning to compare that abuse. With abuse people know exactly what happened and how it happened. And evidence is obvious how it was collected, without opaqueness.
Your entire platform is incorrect, because Hasbro is a public company. They cannot lie about their numbers (legally) or have fraud be brought against them. It's speculated that public companies might inflate their numbers by 10% or so and get away with it, sometimes - which in essence isn't a big deal for the point being made.
SAFETY TOOLS:A person asked I post about Safety Tools here so I shall do so. Whether or not Arm decides to make changes to the consent system is up to y'all. I don't play here anymore. (And based on some of the critics in this thread of ArmMUD, many of it stems from a lack of safety for its players.) For those of you who say: "Just use the OOC command to say you're uncomfortable, file a report, log off" - I think you're beyond reasoning with. This includes some staff. You'd rather bury your heads in the sand than see the perspective of other players and will continue to wonder why the abused do not return.
To the person in Discord who said "I doubt this person is a saint" and to Shaloonsh who insinuated that I am an abusive person:
Yes, I have been abusive to other players and members of staff. That's
why you should have safety tools. No one person can decide what the standard of safe play is in a cooperative environment. Communication about safety ought to be made as integrated into the play experience as possible for the game. I've had many conversations with players where I was personally unaware of harm or "thought it was cool" what we had been roleplaying, only to find out they had lasting trauma over it.
I am hoping staff are open to criticism and reflection on the matter.
MCDM Safety Tools:
https://www.patreon.com/posts/73512191
QuoteHow is this freaking relevant to people playing Armageddon?
It's not I think the derail was intentional though. Reminds me why I stopped posting here.
There's no relation at all, it was just subtle attempts at advertising I think.
Because no publicly-traded corporation ever habitually broke the law in almost undetectable ways when it suited them - Seriously? I wish we lived on that planet.
Safety tools sounds like a good idea, but it feels super ironic it being on Patreon given the real names and emails of everyone who used it was leaked a few years ago. That's just one example of not trusting companies not to mess up things that are important to you.
After looking at it, I saw one of these (not filled in) floating around years ago. I don't think it's a good idea to be giving potential abusers a list of fears and hoping that never gets used against, shared, or stolen.
To be honest. Since 'clearly' it is affecting other people so much (One person affected is enough really), we truly should expend some time and energy to create a few layers of consent related safety tools. Even if a percentage (of which I am one of) would immediately go 'consent all'. Someone else may prefer that extra level of protection from ... ickier sides of human nature.
Quote from: kahuna on October 26, 2022, 01:34:15 PM
QuoteHow is this freaking relevant to people playing Armageddon?
It's not I think the derail was intentional though. Reminds me why I stopped posting here.
Orrrrrr, we can assume a honest mistake. Maybe ask Moderator to clean thread and get back to productive posting?
I'd say hard code it so no one else can view the preferences (because of the many issues around that being unsafe or opening people to harassment) but if something comes up, do a silent test that whatever concept is going to come up and if pings back, then they need to ask (or just not do it)
Quote from: Is Friday on October 26, 2022, 01:13:35 PM
Quote from: Abaya on October 26, 2022, 12:52:52 PM
Usually when you want to get a statistic for something, an independent party carries out research, you don't just trust some random corporation's press release - As abusive as some companies are with the truth, it seems a bit demeaning to compare that abuse. With abuse people know exactly what happened and how it happened. And evidence is obvious how it was collected, without opaqueness.
Your entire platform is incorrect, because Hasbro is a public company. They cannot lie about their numbers (legally) or have fraud be brought against them. It's speculated that public companies might inflate their numbers by 10% or so and get away with it, sometimes - which in essence isn't a big deal for the point being made.
SAFETY TOOLS:
A person asked I post about Safety Tools here so I shall do so. Whether or not Arm decides to make changes to the consent system is up to y'all. I don't play here anymore. (And based on some of the critics in this thread of ArmMUD, many of it stems from a lack of safety for its players.) For those of you who say: "Just use the OOC command to say you're uncomfortable, file a report, log off" - I think you're beyond reasoning with. This includes some staff. You'd rather bury your heads in the sand than see the perspective of other players and will continue to wonder why the abused do not return.
To the person in Discord who said "I doubt this person is a saint" and to Shaloonsh who insinuated that I am an abusive person:
Yes, I have been abusive to other players and members of staff. That's why you should have safety tools. No one person can decide what the standard of safe play is in a cooperative environment. Communication about safety ought to be made as integrated into the play experience as possible for the game. I've had many conversations with players where I was personally unaware of harm or "thought it was cool" what we had been roleplaying, only to find out they had lasting trauma over it.
I am hoping staff are open to criticism and reflection on the matter.
MCDM Safety Tools:
https://www.patreon.com/posts/73512191
I appreciate reading about Safety Tools. Although I was not the one who asked about it, I appreciate the link.
I wonder how you feel about the idea of a session zero being implemented in Armageddon (or a MUD setting in a more general sense). With my RP background in tabletop I always wished the MU*s I roleplayed on could somehow hold one whenever a new player joined, involving some of the staff and veteran players, letting the new player establish lines and veils, that sort of thing.
It's frustrating to see that staff and players are impugning your character on the Discord server for simply posting criticism. This is just a few days after Halaster apologized for doing similar to Delirium. It feels like community behavior isn't fundamentally improving. Given this, I don't know how the community would even tolerate a session zero if the kneejerk reaction to those saying that elements of the game makes them uncomfortable, is to insult them.
The Newbie walk through can be considered a Session 0 and adapted to include content warnings for various topics. This can be copied & reiterated with "common practices to facilitate safe play" in clan forums. e.g. I'm playing in the Allanak: I'm going to be interacting with a Templar, that Templar is going to exert authority due to classism and be racist if I'm not "human enough", or xenophobic if I'm not from Allanak.
I don't think small changes like that fix core issues of interpersonal safety, but they provide a better Opt In environment than what is currently presented.
I suppose the lingering question is: how will staff actually address all of the accounts of abuse?
When I initially brought up negative reviews and allegations of abuse on Reddit, the staff response was essentially that these were demonstrably false and staff did not deem them worth looking into. Now that multiple players have raised concerns on the GDB that are similar to those abuse allegations on Reddit, are they being looked into?
What is staff's plan for handling the concerns in this thread related to staff aggression directed at players in communications, as this continues to be an issue on the GDB and Discord?
I believe that this thread has gone way beyond the point of being useful and has devolved into a mass "let's randomly attack the staff over and over." I too have felt annoyed/angry/betrayed/ etc with a staff member from time to time so I understand that. However, for some of you I cannot understand why you would still be playing after such negative interactions as you've had. The fact that you come back means you must believe there is hope of resolution. Further attacking is not going to resolve anything.
Quote from: Blink on October 26, 2022, 05:53:09 PM
I believe that this thread has gone way beyond the point of being useful and has devolved into a mass "let's randomly attack the staff over and over." I too have felt annoyed/angry/betrayed/ etc with a staff member from time to time so I understand that. However, for some of you I cannot understand why you would still be playing after such negative interactions as you've had. The fact that you come back means you must believe there is hope of resolution. Further attacking is not going to resolve anything.
The point. Of the thread. Is people that ARENT playing.
Are you for real right now? Very disingenuous.
QuoteSAFETY TOOLS:
You know what grinds my gears? I proposed a system for something a few years ago here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55102.msg1037763.html#msg1037763
Funnily enough it was shot down by most members and ridiculed as being weird. Is Friday you responded with this:
QuoteI am always respectful of other people's preference in the game and like to roleplay in 95% of scenes with those who are into super dark shit.
One thing I think this community needs to do is figure out whether you want it or not. It's fine if you've changed your mind now that you don't play I just wanna point out that back then when I made that thread you seemed to be totally against it.
Quote from: kahuna on October 26, 2022, 08:39:30 PM
QuoteSAFETY TOOLS:
You know what grinds my gears? I proposed a system for something a few years ago here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55102.msg1037763.html#msg1037763
Funnily enough it was shot down by most members and ridiculed as being weird. Is Friday you responded with this:
QuoteI am always respectful of other people's preference in the game and like to roleplay in 95% of scenes with those who are into super dark shit.
One thing I think this community needs to do is figure out whether you want it or not. It's fine if you've changed your mind now that you don't play I just wanna point out that back then when I made that thread you seemed to be totally against it.
I was also a man and wildly out of touch with any form of empathy. A lot has changed.
That being said you cherry picked my statement. I was not against something that can be used organically and/or wasn't a publicly displayed checklist at the time.
Quote from: kahuna on October 26, 2022, 08:39:30 PM
QuoteSAFETY TOOLS:
You know what grinds my gears? I proposed a system for something a few years ago here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55102.msg1037763.html#msg1037763
Funnily enough it was shot down by most members and ridiculed as being weird. Is Friday you responded with this:
QuoteI am always respectful of other people's preference in the game and like to roleplay in 95% of scenes with those who are into super dark shit.
One thing I think this community needs to do is figure out whether you want it or not. It's fine if you've changed your mind now that you don't play I just wanna point out that back then when I made that thread you seemed to be totally against it.
i personally do not want/care much. But with one coveat. If absence of this genuinely triggers even a single person, then put them right in.
I love causing anguish in your characters, not the players.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 26, 2022, 04:23:34 PM
I suppose the lingering question is: how will staff actually address all of the accounts of abuse?
When I initially brought up negative reviews and allegations of abuse on Reddit, the staff response was essentially that these were demonstrably false and staff did not deem them worth looking into. Now that multiple players have raised concerns on the GDB that are similar to those abuse allegations on Reddit, are they being looked into?
What is staff's plan for handling the concerns in this thread related to staff aggression directed at players in communications, as this continues to be an issue on the GDB and Discord?
+1 for having more effective safety tools in arm and ensuring players know about them
Hestia here - this post was in agreement with a player who deleted their own post and asked for the quoted, now-deleted post to be removed as well. Out of respect for that, I've removed this member's response to it since it was just agreeing with the now-deleted post that they quoted in-line.
Carry on!
"Safety Tools" was not specifically referencing an OOC channel. Please read up on what they are, and what they are for.
Also, "but people will complain about dying" was not the point. It was that people are SPECIFICALLY NOT PLAYING because in past scenes and experiences, THEY FEEL THEIR VOICES ARE BEING SUBDUED OR IGNORED ENTIRELY.
The person who brought up safety tools even said they won't fix much, if anything, but they are an option. At least there is an idea there. If we had ONE idea, for every 3 "Yeah but.." we'd have a thread full of ideas.
I've advocated before and I will say it again. Player Advocates. Non-Staff-Appointed people whose ONLY job in staff land is to be given the information being used in a judgement to a player's actions. Someone whose job is to see what the staff has seen, what notes have been written, and communicate with the players to come to a conclusion. Even if its a ban-worthy conclusion, it could build some trust in staff decisions when its not feeling like 12 vs 1.
This has to do with the Mul Outpost, but I'm putting here because this is a place for gloom and the other thread isn't intended to be.
When I played last, the Mul Outpost, the stories around it, and the general existence of the player effort there -- was the main thing that made me still want to play. It's hard to elaborate why, but I'll try, because that's relevant. It felt like the only good thing in a world where people reveled in everything bad. Slavery, cruelty, selfishness, lack of deep character thought and development, and the idea of just basically putting up with general evil for the sake of one's survival -- all that is normalized in Zalanthas, and this was a place -- a bastion of inner beauty in the ugliest possible landscape -- that felt as if it stood against all of that. It was precious. And it felt doomed, but I had hope for it. One of the things that depressed me about it was thinking about the short lifespan of muls and the relative speed of game time and how even if my favorite characters managed to survive the harsh world, they would end up weakening and dying of old age. It might have been a tragic and beautiful sort of sadness, if it wasn't for my stewing resentment and ugly hard feelings towards everything else, which I've mentioned before.
I kept checking back here because... to put it simply, Armageddon RPI is the only game running right now that I might want to play again sometime. Despite all its flaws, both mechanical and cultural, it is still the closest game out there to what I like to play, so I had some hope. I had hope for the game just ike I had hope for the outpost.
But seeing how the Mul Outpost is being turned into some kind of stupid MMO capture-the-flag game, where people are discussing how they can raid it and take power over it, makes me feel sick to my stomach. I can't fully express how much I hate this idea. And it just drives in more vividly that this is not the game for me, because the last thing I cared about in the game world is being turned into the kind of thing that disgusts me -- a cheap OOC-gaminess-based thought-empty thing-to-do. So now PCs will be overrunning the outpost for silly reasons just to play some metagame about shifting leaders and control.
I can't speak to the motivations of other players involved, but if I was still playing, I would choke on this so hard. I would have hoped staff involvement with player efforts there would have led to the place becoming more of a community. Like... make a real organization for it, with its own documented lore and clan forum, and make its positive zeitgeist capable of having a real effect on the game world rather than completely neutralizing it as a hollow shell for the interplay of external power struggles. Give it pockets of strength, escape routes, allied safehouses in lawless places, stability in ways that the main cities may not have. Eventually allow it to counter Allanak's strength through guerilla-based tactical patterns. Now that would have been interesting, and something I would've enjoyed.
Most people reading this complaint may think "wow, it's a good thing pilgrim stopped playing, that player wasn't suited to this game at all, and look at all that silly emotional crossover" -- and yeah, they are partially right. Part of the wonder of roleplaying, for me, is that you can step into someone else's shoes and learn to sense more of the world -- you can experience a small fraction of the torment of a refugee, the persecution of a minority, the sorrow of an outcast. You can viscerally understand so much more of others' perspectives. Whether we are aware of it or not, there is a subconscious impact upon us from the characters we play.
So, think about these questions.... why does every effort in this game feel futile? If character-based efforts are doomed, then what will the players start doing? If they keep playing, how will their playstyle adjust? What kind of mentality does the in-game attitude breed? What responsibility do the runners of games have in terms of thinking about these impacts? How can you make your game a force for positivity?
If Armageddon's harshness and brutality was an IC condition geared towards allowing players to widen their paradigms and learn empathy for the downtrodden, to strengthen their minds in toiling against wrongness, or to gain an understanding of how conditions warp believable and relatable villains (I can think of one main villain in the game, during the time I played, that I loved for this understanding) -- then that would be an excellent use of Murder-Corruption-Betrayal, in my mind. Instead, it's being used to foster a toxic OOC atmosphere that even the most loyal players I know recognize as toxic (ask yourselves, how many players don't even want to engage in this thread?). The harshness of the IC world is used an excuse for reveling in senseless evil, for allowing the worst kinds of metagaming abuses that are easily excused by the setting, like a templar sexually coercing someone, or a pedophile getting their rocks off by talking about nasty things in-game, or people rolling in thoughtless characters who are just proxies for the player's desire towards generic mayhem. I've seen protected characters cage others up, for illogical reasons, with the metagamey reasoning of coercing them as sex pets. This player is still playing the game. I've seen players with large amounts of karma use shallow IC reasoning to metagame psychopathically against preferred victims. Still playing the game. I've heard of so many disgusting stories, recently one that included pedophilia, and this player is still playing the game.
From what I've seen, that sort of blatant ugliness is the playstyle that Armageddon protects. Sure, all these disgusting behaviors fit with the setting. But is that why the setting is the setting it is? You have to intentionally moderate these things in order to maintain theme the way that you want it. And now you're ruining the last thing in the game that seemed to stand independent of these attitudes, basically just neutering any efficacy it might have ever been dreamed to have, and the disgusted resentment that I was too overwhelmed with previously to continue playing... has returned. I wish for the evolution of the game into something that suits my mindset. But I think maybe it's impossible, maybe your mental wavelengths are just in complete opposition to mine, and nothing substantial will ever really change. And it's for the best if players like me go and do something else; be somewhere that our efforts and feelings are respected. The problem with this thought is that it situates Armageddon and its culture firmly in my mind as a hive of wretchedness, and I don't like that feeling. I don't like the thought that this is how staff want the theme maintained, and they are secretly irritated by people pointing it out and complaining about it, and just trying to placate people and run damage control. I prefer feeling positive and hopeful. Unfortunately life is seldom to our preference, and this move with the mul outpost has confirmed to me how the mindset of Armageddon staff is completely opposite to mine.
Arguments against safety tools seem to forget that while the game already has consent rules, they are not being enforced to a standard that prevents sexual harassment. If the consent rules as they are now allow a staff member to say that a templar did no wrong in locking a commoner in a room until they submitted to sex with the templar, or allow a staff member to force a character to have sex with an NPC, then they are not good consent rules, and need to be revised, with any current staff members that have done harm in this way acknowledging that they were wrong. The best time to revise the rules was immediately after these incidents; the second-best time is now.
There is also the matter of non-sexual forms of abuse like when staff insult/admonish players unprovoked. This kind of behavior is just not acceptable. It doesn't help with communication between players and staff, and only seems to have the effect of goading players into responding to staff inappropriately, which leads to staff, in turn, justifying a reprisal. It is also a problem that has existed for a long time.
The fact that stories posted here are similar in nature to stories posted on Reddit, which staff have previously dismissed as untrue, is not lost on me. So, after seeing players explicitly say in this thread that they have left for reasons related to these forms of abuse, the reasonable expectation is to see what staff have to say for themselves.
I don't think there is a single player that benefits from sidelining these concerns by trashing ideas, or dismissing these concerns by saying that the thread is just an attack on staff. Players should have a lot of common ground in seeing these aspects of the game get improvements. That said, I think a team of player advocates appointed by the players themselves is a good start. I think the end goal should be open and honest communication, and a mutual understanding that mistakes will happen and the goal should be to correct the game's course immediately afterward, instead of letting wounds fester.
If my PC gets murdered in a way I think is wildly unfair, and staff say "Too bad, stuff happened that you can't see and we can't tell you about, but its fine" ... the only people I have to believe are the ones whose job it is to keep this game running by any means necessary. People who have said before that they don't care whether I play the game, or not, its up to me.
If my PC gets murdered in a way I think is unfair, and staff AND MANSA say "We looked at it, and there was a decent amount of buildup that led to it. The lack of a scene may be looked into, but this wasn't random or pointless"... well. Now I have to believe another play who SHOULD NOT have any ulterior motives other than to advocate on my behalf.
I don't know how the system would work, and I can see many flaws and issues, but if trust is a main thing that is missing... lets build a bridge instead of adding more soldiers on the banks to shout at each other.
Quotei personally do not want/care much. But with one coveat. If absence of this genuinely triggers even a single person, then put them right in.
I love causing anguish in your characters, not the players.
How to respond here... I hope what you're saying is you love causing anguish to players that want that sort of roleplay? Because that's my point. Fundamentally what we're talking about is what type of roleplay people want to be involved in. There's a lot when you think about it. Some people want absolutely nothing to do with mudsex, but guess what? They're still harassed IC for sex, flirted with, propositioned, and basically forced into that aspect of the game. If you had a FLAG to set that you want nothing to do with it, the onus is now on the player to set that flag. You don't have to go OOC (you still can).
You can't have it both ways. Either you want a welcoming roleplaying environment where people can setup the type of RP they want, or you want a free for all wild west (which Arm was 25 years ago). If you want it the first way, put flags in for the most sensitive topics.
If, however, you want to return to the wild west, anything goes, then convince staff to remove the consent rules altogether, remove the restrictions on rape plot lines, remove the restrictions on anything. And I know plenty of people want that sort of experience/roleplay environment.
Quote from: Riev on October 27, 2022, 11:36:59 AM
If my PC gets murdered in a way I think is wildly unfair, and staff say "Too bad, stuff happened that you can't see and we can't tell you about, but its fine" ... the only people I have to believe are the ones whose job it is to keep this game running by any means necessary. People who have said before that they don't care whether I play the game, or not, its up to me.
If my PC gets murdered in a way I think is unfair, and staff AND MANSA say "We looked at it, and there was a decent amount of buildup that led to it. The lack of a scene may be looked into, but this wasn't random or pointless"... well. Now I have to believe another play who SHOULD NOT have any ulterior motives other than to advocate on my behalf.
I don't know how the system would work, and I can see many flaws and issues, but if trust is a main thing that is missing... lets build a bridge instead of adding more soldiers on the banks to shout at each other.
How do you know Mansa is not a staffer already?
Very much not the point, and not helpful to the conversation, thank you.
Quote from: pilgrim on October 27, 2022, 10:38:41 AM
This has to do with the Mul Outpost, but I'm putting here because this is a place for gloom and the other thread isn't intended to be.
When I played last, the Mul Outpost, the stories around it, and the general existence of the player effort there -- was the main thing that made me still want to play. It's hard to elaborate why, but I'll try, because that's relevant. It felt like the only good thing in a world where people reveled in everything bad. Slavery, cruelty, selfishness, lack of deep character thought and development, and the idea of just basically putting up with general evil for the sake of one's survival -- all that is normalized in Zalanthas, and this was a place -- a bastion of inner beauty in the ugliest possible landscape -- that felt as if it stood against all of that. It was precious. And it felt doomed, but I had hope for it. One of the things that depressed me about it was thinking about the short lifespan of muls and the relative speed of game time and how even if my favorite characters managed to survive the harsh world, they would end up weakening and dying of old age. It might have been a tragic and beautiful sort of sadness, if it wasn't for my stewing resentment and ugly hard feelings towards everything else, which I've mentioned before.
I kept checking back here because... to put it simply, Armageddon RPI is the only game running right now that I might want to play again sometime. Despite all its flaws, both mechanical and cultural, it is still the closest game out there to what I like to play, so I had some hope. I had hope for the game just ike I had hope for the outpost.
But seeing how the Mul Outpost is being turned into some kind of stupid MMO capture-the-flag game, where people are discussing how they can raid it and take power over it, makes me feel sick to my stomach. I can't fully express how much I hate this idea. And it just drives in more vividly that this is not the game for me, because the last thing I cared about in the game world is being turned into the kind of thing that disgusts me -- a cheap OOC-gaminess-based thought-empty thing-to-do. So now PCs will be overrunning the outpost for silly reasons just to play some metagame about shifting leaders and control.
I can't speak to the motivations of other players involved, but if I was still playing, I would choke on this so hard. I would have hoped staff involvement with player efforts there would have led to the place becoming more of a community. Like... make a real organization for it, with its own documented lore and clan forum, and make its positive zeitgeist capable of having a real effect on the game world rather than completely neutralizing it as a hollow shell for the interplay of external power struggles. Give it pockets of strength, escape routes, allied safehouses in lawless places, stability in ways that the main cities may not have. Eventually allow it to counter Allanak's strength through guerilla-based tactical patterns. Now that would have been interesting, and something I would've enjoyed.
Most people reading this complaint may think "wow, it's a good thing pilgrim stopped playing, that player wasn't suited to this game at all, and look at all that silly emotional crossover" -- and yeah, they are partially right. Part of the wonder of roleplaying, for me, is that you can step into someone else's shoes and learn to sense more of the world -- you can experience a small fraction of the torment of a refugee, the persecution of a minority, the sorrow of an outcast. You can viscerally understand so much more of others' perspectives. Whether we are aware of it or not, there is a subconscious impact upon us from the characters we play.
So, think about these questions.... why does every effort in this game feel futile? If character-based efforts are doomed, then what will the players start doing? If they keep playing, how will their playstyle adjust? What kind of mentality does the in-game attitude breed? What responsibility do the runners of games have in terms of thinking about these impacts? How can you make your game a force for positivity?
If Armageddon's harshness and brutality was an IC condition geared towards allowing players to widen their paradigms and learn empathy for the downtrodden, to strengthen their minds in toiling against wrongness, or to gain an understanding of how conditions warp believable and relatable villains (I can think of one main villain in the game, during the time I played, that I loved for this understanding) -- then that would be an excellent use of Murder-Corruption-Betrayal, in my mind. Instead, it's being used to foster a toxic OOC atmosphere that even the most loyal players I know recognize as toxic (ask yourselves, how many players don't even want to engage in this thread?). The harshness of the IC world is used an excuse for reveling in senseless evil, for allowing the worst kinds of metagaming abuses that are easily excused by the setting, like a templar sexually coercing someone, or a pedophile getting their rocks off by talking about nasty things in-game, or people rolling in thoughtless characters who are just proxies for the player's desire towards generic mayhem. I've seen protected characters cage others up, for illogical reasons, with the metagamey reasoning of coercing them as sex pets. This player is still playing the game. I've seen players with large amounts of karma use shallow IC reasoning to metagame psychopathically against preferred victims. Still playing the game. I've heard of so many disgusting stories, recently one that included pedophilia, and this player is still playing the game.
From what I've seen, that sort of blatant ugliness is the playstyle that Armageddon protects. Sure, all these disgusting behaviors fit with the setting. But is that why the setting is the setting it is? You have to intentionally moderate these things in order to maintain theme the way that you want it. And now you're ruining the last thing in the game that seemed to stand independent of these attitudes, basically just neutering any efficacy it might have ever been dreamed to have, and the disgusted resentment that I was too overwhelmed with previously to continue playing... has returned. I wish for the evolution of the game into something that suits my mindset. But I think maybe it's impossible, maybe your mental wavelengths are just in complete opposition to mine, and nothing substantial will ever really change. And it's for the best if players like me go and do something else; be somewhere that our efforts and feelings are respected. The problem with this thought is that it situates Armageddon and its culture firmly in my mind as a hive of wretchedness, and I don't like that feeling. I don't like the thought that this is how staff want the theme maintained, and they are secretly irritated by people pointing it out and complaining about it, and just trying to placate people and run damage control. I prefer feeling positive and hopeful. Unfortunately life is seldom to our preference, and this move with the mul outpost has confirmed to me how the mindset of Armageddon staff is completely opposite to mine.
On a philosophical level, I disagree with your perception of what the ideal moral status of zalanthas should be. What you describe as -good- is subjective to me, and armageddon lacks the necessary historical events to set a basis for such a good to establish. (to that similar of our RL) However, it's fascinating to hear someone having such deep level of feelings towards a place many just skip by. I don't even have such intensity towards anything in RL, let alone IC. So, respect, and whoever you are I hope you keep playing.
Quote from: Riev on October 27, 2022, 12:24:18 PM
Very much not the point, and not helpful to the conversation, thank you.
It's a valid point, in fact. Considering there are how many threads (or posts in this very one) about how a minority of folk, no matter what is said or done, do not trust staff, nor each other. So, an 'advocate' elected from the player-base (with the proclaimed cliques that exist so it's a popularity contest) is in no way, shape or form subject to bias behavior towards players they don't like and lean heavily to the ones they do in their own 'circle'?
Sounds like a recipe for a player to get blasted by both sides if they remain unbiased and become a burn out hell, or not solve a thing when bias (real or perceived) is presented to those involved.
Quote from: Dar on October 27, 2022, 12:10:41 PM
How do you know Mansa is not a staffer already?
Quote from: Riev on October 27, 2022, 12:24:18 PM
Very much not the point, and not helpful to the conversation, thank you.
Digressing: actually I think it's a good point.
The difference between "staff checked it out" and "staff and Mansa checked it out" is that Mansa has a reputation in this community outside of staffing. (I have no idea if Mansa has ever staffed btw.) If Mansa joined staff and folks
knew it, this would color their interpretations of StaffMansa's actions...probably in a good way.
I have a three-part thesis and I don't know if it's true but I'm intrigued: it is,
Player anonymity reduces community trust. (i.e. most people never know who played "Amos")
Staff pseudonymity reduces community trust. (i.e. most people don't know that, fictive example, Shabago == Mansa or whatever)
Anonymity has some value but way less than we think.
Quote from: Shabago on October 27, 2022, 01:26:07 PM
Sounds like a recipe for a player to get blasted by both sides if they remain unbiased and become a burn out hell, or not solve a thing when bias (real or perceived) is presented to those involved.
For the sake of argument...imagine a world in which players rotated on and off staff pretty regularly, and didn't use different identities as staff. Community-strengthening or just hellish? I think it could be the former, but I don't know.
As a player hath said, all Arm players are a little crazy. :D
While I do agree with you that anonymity leads to distrust and I think it is a tool that could be used for abuse and has no place here anymore, I don't think knowing the public identities of staff really addresses that problem. This is a small community, a lot of times we already know.
I've been dying to post in this thread, but just haven't had a chance to whip all my thoughts together. I've got a boring flight this evening where I may do just that.
Quote from: Shabago on October 27, 2022, 01:26:07 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 27, 2022, 12:24:18 PM
Very much not the point, and not helpful to the conversation, thank you.
It's a valid point, in fact. Considering there are how many threads (or posts in this very one) about how a minority of folk, no matter what is said or done, do not trust staff, nor each other. So, an 'advocate' elected from the player-base (with the proclaimed cliques that exist so it's a popularity contest) is in no way, shape or form subject to bias behavior towards players they don't like and lean heavily to the ones they do in their own 'circle'?
Sounds like a recipe for a player to get blasted by both sides if they remain unbiased and become a burn out hell, or not solve a thing when bias (real or perceived) is presented to those involved.
Personally I see the player advocate idea as more something to bridge an existing gap, than an end goal. It is, like many suggestions in this thread, just a suggestion; malleable and open to adjustment. The end goal should be open, honest, and polite conversation between players and staff. It doesn't really matter how we get there, as long as we get there.
It might be more useful to examine why some players do not trust each other or staff, and do what is necessary to ensure that future players don't end up with the same feelings. That way, even if you never win over the few players who will never trust other players or staff, you at least ensure that the cycle ends. Fortunately, many people in this thread have stepped up to say why that trust broke down for them.
Hey as new story teller I'm excited about solving problems but largely powerless to do so. Thus I will just give some advice from my professional career instead.
The most important thing to come out of this thread will be well defined problems. Solutions, ideas, and critiques of the ideas are fine, but solutions will ultimately have to get iterated on and many will not be viable. A well defined problem doesn't go away until solved, so having that in writing is very powerful.
A little bit ago, I made a suggestion to rewrite the consent helpfile, as a few players and myself felt it wasn't as explicit as it should be in scenarios of power imbalances. I was hoping we could re-look at my revisions to see if we can change it. The major additions are in the section about coercion and social power imbalances, as well as to clean up some of the examples and to limit the use of acronyms.
Current Rules:
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent
Revised Policy:
Consent (Rules)
There are few restrictions on roleplay in ArmageddonMUD.
Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. See 'help
rape' for further elaboration on this subject and a definition of what is
considered rape in ArmageddonMUD.
Erotic roleplay and graphic torture are permissible roleplaying scenes to
explore in ArmageddonMUD. However, before instigating such an act with another
player, you need to communicate using the OOC command to make sure that the role
play is consented to, in each and every scene it happens. You must do this as
you can't be sure that you are alone in every situation, and as such consent
must be addressed every time. As well, fellow players may be comfortable in
roleplaying these scenes during some days, and may not be comfortable the next
day. Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some players may wish
to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while
other players might prefer that the details be communicated in an Out-Of-
Character fashion and left offstage.
Some examples would be:
OOC Do you consent granted for graphic scene (torture, mild mutilation)? If we
Fade to Black, the maiming/torture will still occur, but be off screen.
Alternatively, if you do not wish to live with a maimed PC, we can do a
straightforward kill/execution.
OOC Sure, bring on the blood.
OOC Consent to erotic roleplay? Or FTB (Fade to Black)?
OOC I want to fade-to-black and pick up after.
If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please use the
OOC command to state that they should stop. If they continue despite being told
to stop, please use the wish command and 'wish all' immediately to notify the
staff.
If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's
consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so
that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be banned
for thirty (30) days for the first offense, permanently for the second offense.
If the Producers deem an act that is a first offense especially egregious, you
will be permanently banned. Please use common sense and have respect for other
people's sensibilities.
Relationships with a social power imbalance have additional rules:
In situations where a power imbalance between two characters exists and said
imbalance is used as leverage (or coercion) for an adult situation, consent must
be sought at the earliest possible juncture.
Example:
OOC Do you consent to pursue an amorous relationship between our characters?
If any player does not consent, that storyline cannot continue, and the
characters must change their play to avoid a sexual situation going forward,
including any inappropriate touching (grabbing asses, touching thighs, grabbing
breasts, kissing, etc..) or other forms of sexual harassment. In this situation,
the instigator should adjust their intent or desire to avoid a sexual situation
entirely, and there should be no negative repercussions for the character of
the non-consenting player.
Torture and Mutilations:
In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their
ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by
the procedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill
the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should
not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out
of character beyond this provision. Castration/sterilization must not be
roleplayed out in gory detail, as then it would cross into the realm of sexual
torture.
Summary:
Armageddon is a game with some mature themes, and included among those are
things that some players may find more or less appealing to play out for any
number of reasons. If you find yourself in a situation that does not go against
the rules listed above, though you would rather not play in that situation you
still have a recourse available to you: You may WISH ALL to request direct
assistance from staff (please provide applicable information and see HELP WISH).
When possible, we will offer an avenue out of the scene, and when not we will
offer a swift end to your PC. (In situations that call for a swift end.) None of
this will be done without confirmation from you, the player, first.
Consent Not Required:
-A tattoo is forced upon your character. (Mutilation is considered the loss of a
body part, such as a limb or an ear.)
-You are in a room with another player who is in a state of undress, though no
sexual connotations can be discerned. (Certain cultures in game may be more
liberal with their view on clothing.)
-You are being whipped with the 'whip' command, but no gruesome or visceral
emotes are being emoted. (Command echoes are not considered 'mutilation', and
are a part of the game.)
If there are any questions to be had regarding this rule, please submit a Game
Related Question Request at your earliest possible convenience.
Notes:
You must be 18 years of age or older to ask for or give consent for sexual
roleplay.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 27, 2022, 01:27:48 PM
Anonymity has some value but way less than we think.
I disagree.
If you knew something as simple as my GDB non-Staff handle, it would be hard, but possible, to find out my RL identity.
Given actions of a very small number of former players in the past, this is not something I would want to be available to them.
On the topic of anonymity, there is no requirement for staff to be anonymous. I was not forced to make a new handle except in that our mortal accounts and our staff accounts are indeed two different accounts (thus two account names). I did not make a secondary discord account, I simply changed my original handle live. My twitch (which was indeed just my mortal handle) was still linked to my discord and in plain view, my identity was not a concern for me and indeed isn't for many staff.
I use alternate gdb handles because when I join a clan I want to be treated with the same fairness from the playerbase as they would treat any other player, I would not want someone knowing I was an active staff member to affect the separation of ic/ooc or their desire to play around me.
Other staff conceal much of their other handles for things like brokkr has stated which is a very real (very verified) concern, if you wish to be anonymous you have the option to do so. It is not a requirement of staff.
Quote from: Shabago on October 27, 2022, 01:26:07 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 27, 2022, 12:24:18 PM
Very much not the point, and not helpful to the conversation, thank you.
It's a valid point, in fact. Considering there are how many threads (or posts in this very one) about how a minority of folk, no matter what is said or done, do not trust staff, nor each other. So, an 'advocate' elected from the player-base (with the proclaimed cliques that exist so it's a popularity contest) is in no way, shape or form subject to bias behavior towards players they don't like and lean heavily to the ones they do in their own 'circle'?
Sounds like a recipe for a player to get blasted by both sides if they remain unbiased and become a burn out hell, or not solve a thing when bias (real or perceived) is presented to those involved.
The point of suggesting an advocate wasn't "Hire Mansa". Please replace "Mansa" with whatever community member doesn't make you wonder if they're a staff.
My idea isn't perfect, but I'm trying to put forward an idea rather than just say why others won't work.
What if we talk about the idea, not the specifics of how it is done. WOULD having an advocate not tied to the staff work in building trust?
Quote from: Kaathe on October 27, 2022, 02:20:52 PM
Hey as new story teller I'm excited about solving problems but largely powerless to do so. Thus I will just give some advice from my professional career instead.
The most important thing to come out of this thread will be well defined problems. Solutions, ideas, and critiques of the ideas are fine, but solutions will ultimately have to get iterated on and many will not be viable. A well defined problem doesn't go away until solved, so having that in writing is very powerful.
This is a good point!
I have a small issue with Custom Crafting--the timegating on it. It feels kind of clunky when you're CCing things because a LOT of the time, you finish your CC before the 30 day mark, so the rest of that time you're just..sitting in crafter limbo, waiting for that number to ding so you can speedrun another. I don't like this system, I know plenty of other people don't like this system, so I'd like to propose an alternative:
Limit us to 2 CC's a month, no more/no less, instead of just the 1.
Maybe it's just me, but crafting is one of my favorite things to do in the game, especially when I get to make new things and add to the game in a meaningful way. A lot of CC's have distinct memories attached to them, and being able to give someone something that they can have fond memories with as a long-lasting item is really fun for me.
How about players get to vote to ban one staffer a year for a whole year (with an option for none if no one staffer has made enough enemies to warrant ostracization).
I don't think that.. voting people off of staff like it's Total Drama Island is really the uh.. really the way to go about fixing problems.
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on October 27, 2022, 05:15:51 PM
I don't think that.. voting people off of staff like it's Total Drama Island is really the uh.. really the way to go about fixing problems.
Why not? Are you on staff? Getting on staff wouldn't change, being on staff wouldn't change. It'd just introduce some accountability to an otherwise unaccountable system. Maybe restore some trust in the system and the people running it that this thread, just like every other "why no one play game?" thread at some point or another, has shown to be a depleted commodity.
But, eh, just an idea.
Only if their staff avatar gets bound at the tickler and players are allowed to throw fruit from a nearby vendor at them.
I have run this by another Producer, and they have agreed that I can post it here.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 22, 2022, 03:53:57 AM
I still think about my noble being murdered, for refusing to have sex with the NPC. Staff married her to him as a punishment for not wanting to participate in a plot.
This keeps getting referenced.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 27, 2022, 10:50:19 AM
or allow a staff member to force a character to have sex with an NPC
Reading how this event is being quoted by others, my interpretation at least is that it reads like: Staff wanted to RP out a sexual scene with a player, and when that didn't happen, they killed the PC with NPCs.
So perhaps it is a good case study.
Of active Staff, I am the only one that was involved, and likely the only one that has any idea, from a Staff perspective, of what Is Friday is talking about. If something is still bothering a player after this long, whether they play or not, we often have a limited ability to address it simply because we have limited or no knowledge of it. Or the in-depth knowledge is limited to a single Staff member, which can also be problematic.
The situation in question came about from a plot I developed and ran as a brand new Storyteller. We pit two PC nobles against each other. One would win and get married up, and one would lose and get married down. This was a learning experience for me, which I have tried to percolate to other Staff since then, in terms of being very careful with Marriage plots and trying not to box players in with them, surprise them with them, and do a lot of communication with the player on them if you can. This sort of experiential learning on the Staff side isn't transparent to players involved in the situations that give rise to it, but can absolutely change our interactions as Staff.
I wrote up the NPC, but never actually animated it. As far as I know, there was never a demand for a sexual scene, and if there was I profusely apologize. The Staff member that did animate talked with me about this beforehand, and they indicated to me at that point they had no intention of that at all. That said, this is where it gets complicated.
The marriage contract stipulated that there would be children. Unfortunately, I did not have much experience Staffing at that point, a few months at most, so I thought surprising the Player IC'ly made sense, rather than working over what they were comfortable with beforehand. They expressed later that they were not comfortable with this, and I did not have the experience at the time to bring this up with the player beforehand. Partly because as a player that had recently been made Staff, I would have had so little of a problem with it if done to me as a Player as to not even think to do something like this. I took from this series of events not only a lot more caution in how I approached marriage plots, but also a lesson in trying to see things not only through my Staff and my Player perspective, but trying to think through how other folks might view things as issues that I would not.
So, the player already felt violated about IC'ly having to bear children. We made their husband unattractive, unambitious, unappealing and happy that he got a babe of a PC to score with. The NPC probably made insinuations about sex, creepy comments and other stuff IC for an ugly loser noble who just scored a babe to make, they were made to be un-likeable. The intent was not playing out some sexual scene. The intent was to try to make it so there was a clear path and appealing reasons for the PC to kill off the husband. This is where things get a bit foggy for me, as I can not remember if I witnessed them firsthand, but the PC basically engaged in some activity, I think as a protest in being made to bear children, which ultimately lead to their demise. I do not remember the exact details of the demise, but I know it was a PC that landed the killing blow, so this was not just NPCs involved.
There was a lot more around this whole plot and the outcome of it that did not deal with the sexual part referenced. It was complicated, from the plots to the player behaviors to the communications back and forth, and there was certainly friction already. The different viewpoints and expectations definitely contributed to this entire thing going as badly sideways as it did. I was excited for the possible future of the character, where they could end up redeeming themselves IC'ly and the possibilities that presented, and the player was (my interpretation, but only after it all played out) extremely bummed out by all the bad stuff that had happened to their character, acted out IC, and their character story was cut short by the consequences of that.
None of this is meant to disparage Is Friday's experience. They had their viewpoint on the entire series of events and felt extremely negatively about it all (my interpretation). I apologize for contributing to causing them to feel that way. There were certainly a number of things about this plot we could have done better.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 27, 2022, 05:48:07 PM
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on October 27, 2022, 05:15:51 PM
I don't think that.. voting people off of staff like it's Total Drama Island is really the uh.. really the way to go about fixing problems.
Why not? Are you on staff? Getting on staff wouldn't change, being on staff wouldn't change. It'd just introduce some accountability to an otherwise unaccountable system. Maybe restore some trust in the system and the people running it that this thread, just like every other "why no one play game?" thread at some point or another, has shown to be a depleted commodity.
But, eh, just an idea.
Because it could become a witch-hunt VERY easily. One staffer could do something 1 player doesn't like, then that player will get their personal clique involved, and then it'll snowball out of control. It's /not/ an inherently fair system, it /doesn't/ create accountability. What it does, is gives players the power to get rid of a staffer for not doing what they want. I'm not trying to argue or sound shitty, I'm just explaining why I disagree. I do, however, agree that there does need to be some way to hold staff directly accountable, this however isn't the way to do it.
Mansa has every tell tale traits of a staff alt.
Good roleplayer : check
Had a character that built a lot of new buildings: check
Has been around for long: check
Is active on forums with game enriching data and graph
Canadian: check
Mansa is more staff then some staff.
But anyway. Yes. There is a point. Thing is staff and players are being differentiated here. And they really shouldnt be.
But some behaviours are definitely corruptive.
Staff does tend to circle the wagons and protect each other. Which removes their humanity and makes them cogs in a system. One responsible for faults of all other.
They think communal front makes them appear to have greater authority, wisdom, and agency. Which they think is useful in resisting the Karens amongst us. And maybe it is. But the price they pay for this is not worth it.
Quote from: Kaathe on October 27, 2022, 02:20:52 PM
Hey as new story teller I'm excited about solving problems but largely powerless to do so. Thus I will just give some advice from my professional career instead.
The most important thing to come out of this thread will be well defined problems. Solutions, ideas, and critiques of the ideas are fine, but solutions will ultimately have to get iterated on and many will not be viable. A well defined problem doesn't go away until solved, so having that in writing is very powerful.
Well said. Fortunately, I think the problems are pretty well-defined at this point. We have some player accounts of things that have gone sideways, and some of staff's viewpoint on those same events. This is a really good start to a discussion that will eventually serve to solve the documented problems. As far as solutions go, this thread is still very early-stage, and that's fine. Gives us time to think things through.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 27, 2022, 02:37:12 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 27, 2022, 01:27:48 PM
Anonymity has some value but way less than we think.
I disagree.
If you knew something as simple as my GDB non-Staff handle, it would be hard, but possible, to find out my RL identity.
Given actions of a very small number of former players in the past, this is not something I would want to be available to them.
Regarding anonymity and staff accountability: I don't think staff anonymity (or at least the option of it) needs to be sacrificed in order to have greater accountability towards staff. Staff should absolutely have their preference of whether to remain anonymous or not. Everyone is entitled to anonymity on the internet should they wish to have it, especially in a community that has had people stalking and harassing others IRL in the past. Asking staff to reveal information that would give away who they are IRL crosses a line that I wouldn't be comfortable with personally.
That being said, anonymity is not necessary to achieve greater levels of staff accountability. Accountability can be as simple as sharing perspectives, admitting when mistakes and wrongdoing happen, and being willing to do what needs to be done to rebuild trust, even if that means reversing past decisions or dismissing problematic staff members that don't course-correct. But I think the most important thing is maintaining a non-aggressive atmosphere where people feel comfortable about bringing up issues. Staff really cannot and should not be insulting players - definitely not publicly, and it's not helpful in private either. (I don't know how casual discussions are in staff world, but if staff backbite about players at all, that should definitely stop. It makes it more likely insults will be hurled around later.) For the most part, this thread has been a really good example, but it's pretty clear some work still needs to be done on that front.
One thing that I think would help in staff communication that can be read as hostile by a player, is for other staff to read it beforehand, and even cosign it along with the staff member sending it. Having two or three additional names attached to a message that has been co-reviewed lends more credibility to it and divides the responsibility among staff more evenly for the communication. A lot of the former staff that got a reputation for being less-than-capable communicators were usually responsible for the vast majority of those types of communications, and I think part of the reason why they came off so poorly is because they were stuck with a task no one else was willing to do. A side effect of cosigning these communications is that the other staff will have a say in how it's phrased and can use that opportunity to reign in the message and make sure it is not an attack on the player.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 27, 2022, 06:31:30 PM
I have run this by another Producer, and they have agreed that I can post it here.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 22, 2022, 03:53:57 AM
I still think about my noble being murdered, for refusing to have sex with the NPC. Staff married her to him as a punishment for not wanting to participate in a plot.
This keeps getting referenced.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 27, 2022, 10:50:19 AM
or allow a staff member to force a character to have sex with an NPC
Reading how this event is being quoted by others, my interpretation at least is that it reads like: Staff wanted to RP out a sexual scene with a player, and when that didn't happen, they killed the PC with NPCs.
So perhaps it is a good case study.
Of active Staff, I am the only one that was involved, and likely the only one that has any idea, from a Staff perspective, of what Is Friday is talking about. If something is still bothering a player after this long, whether they play or not, we often have a limited ability to address it simply because we have limited or no knowledge of it. Or the in-depth knowledge is limited to a single Staff member, which can also be problematic.
The situation in question came about from a plot I developed and ran as a brand new Storyteller. We pit two PC nobles against each other. One would win and get married up, and one would lose and get married down. This was a learning experience for me, which I have tried to percolate to other Staff since then, in terms of being very careful with Marriage plots and trying not to box players in with them, surprise them with them, and do a lot of communication with the player on them if you can. This sort of experiential learning on the Staff side isn't transparent to players involved in the situations that give rise to it, but can absolutely change our interactions as Staff.
I wrote up the NPC, but never actually animated it. As far as I know, there was never a demand for a sexual scene, and if there was I profusely apologize. The Staff member that did animate talked with me about this beforehand, and they indicated to me at that point they had no intention of that at all. That said, this is where it gets complicated.
The marriage contract stipulated that there would be children. Unfortunately, I did not have much experience Staffing at that point, a few months at most, so I thought surprising the Player IC'ly made sense, rather than working over what they were comfortable with beforehand. They expressed later that they were not comfortable with this, and I did not have the experience at the time to bring this up with the player beforehand. Partly because as a player that had recently been made Staff, I would have had so little of a problem with it if done to me as a Player as to not even think to do something like this. I took from this series of events not only a lot more caution in how I approached marriage plots, but also a lesson in trying to see things not only through my Staff and my Player perspective, but trying to think through how other folks might view things as issues that I would not.
So, the player already felt violated about IC'ly having to bear children. We made their husband unattractive, unambitious, unappealing and happy that he got a babe of a PC to score with. The NPC probably made insinuations about sex, creepy comments and other stuff IC for an ugly loser noble who just scored a babe to make, they were made to be un-likeable. The intent was not playing out some sexual scene. The intent was to try to make it so there was a clear path and appealing reasons for the PC to kill off the husband. This is where things get a bit foggy for me, as I can not remember if I witnessed them firsthand, but the PC basically engaged in some activity, I think as a protest in being made to bear children, which ultimately lead to their demise. I do not remember the exact details of the demise, but I know it was a PC that landed the killing blow, so this was not just NPCs involved.
There was a lot more around this whole plot and the outcome of it that did not deal with the sexual part referenced. It was complicated, from the plots to the player behaviors to the communications back and forth, and there was certainly friction already. The different viewpoints and expectations definitely contributed to this entire thing going as badly sideways as it did. I was excited for the possible future of the character, where they could end up redeeming themselves IC'ly and the possibilities that presented, and the player was (my interpretation, but only after it all played out) extremely bummed out by all the bad stuff that had happened to their character, acted out IC, and their character story was cut short by the consequences of that.
None of this is meant to disparage Is Friday's experience. They had their viewpoint on the entire series of events and felt extremely negatively about it all (my interpretation). I apologize for contributing to causing them to feel that way. There were certainly a number of things about this plot we could have done better.
Thank you.I think we both made a great number of mistakes and had similar inexperience in dealing with that kind of situation. I had been asked OOCly via the request tool (after the IC reveal) and clarified that my PC was indeed required to have children. I expressed OOCly that I was uncomfortable with that because given the circumstances, as it was a punishment to be married down from Borsail to Tor, it felt very much icky. (Contract marriages are awful and to internalize it through my character was very shitty for me.)
ICly, Kitt Bor-Tor was the PC instructor at the Academy. She was fooling around with a Templar in her office when her NPC husband walked in. (Probably one of the funniest scenes ever, actually.) A rival Borsail noble (Valorisk iirc) had just been kicked out of the Tor Academy for acting out in class and being a general nuisance to Kitt. Lucith Borsail, my PC's "buddy" had been instructed by Lakrinia (Lady Commander Borsail) to lure my PC into the Borsail estate to receive a formal apology from Valorisk about being rude to her in order to be reinstated at the Academy. My PC was instead lured in for a locked room kill in Valorisk's estate room of all places. NPCs were animated after Valorisk began the combat and my PC was dogpiled by several PC/NPCs. (Cool.) Tor was unhappy that Kitt was not bearing children (violating the contract) and made the deal to get rid of the mutual "problem".
Just prior to that: I was offered that I "didn't have to RP being pregnant". That's not really what mattered to me. It was the sexual violation of my PC and their bodily autonomy that bothered me and I didn't want to internalize it. I didn't want to roleplay a woman carrying the child of a man she not only hated but represented her only "value" to her family after her failure. I've played characters who have been violated like that even in FTB scenes. It's always character ruining, for me. I cannot occupy that headspace of a victim of sexual assault and continue to enjoy a PC in my leisure time.
Removing the explicit act of rape to be played out does not remove the trauma of the event from the future of that character. Just like opting out of the gore in a torture scene does not mean your PC is not disfigured afterward.
Anyway.
Thank you for the apology. I'm sorry, too. I believe I sent a lot of very angry requests and my attitude likely carried over whenever I had anything similar occur. I think ultimately all I've ever wanted was to discuss it and bury it. I appreciate you showing vulnerability and compassion to me.
And by no means is this anyone else's fault, but being trans (and not understanding anything about that) greatly intensified my feelings about things that happened to my PCs. I was unable to comprehend that my deep connection to my fem characters was strongly related to me not being able to live as a woman IRL. Everyone always told me "you roleplay women so well!" W E L P.
I do apologize to anyone who I'd hurt in a similar circumstance on staff. I was very, very invested in my characters. I didn't understand why then, but I do now.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 27, 2022, 09:40:15 PM
She was fooling around with a Templar in her office when her NPC husband walked in. (Probably one of the funniest scenes ever, actually.)
This was definitely one of the funniest scenes I've ever had in my time in Armageddon. I thought the bumbling husband NPC was hysterical, and my PC at the time commented more than once that they were wondering when they would learn that Lord Tor experienced a mysterious accident... the fact that never came makes more sense now.
Glad lessons were learned on this by staff. I thought that plotline was only good natured fun at the time (having been involved on the side lines of it), and it was fairly common place in Allanaki noble roles to have marriage contracts so I didn't think much of it at the time, but given more context I can see how it was very disturbing for you Is Friday.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 27, 2022, 01:27:48 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 27, 2022, 12:10:41 PM
How do you know Mansa is not a staffer already?
Quote from: Riev on October 27, 2022, 12:24:18 PM
Very much not the point, and not helpful to the conversation, thank you.
Digressing: actually I think it's a good point.
The difference between "staff checked it out" and "staff and Mansa checked it out" is that Mansa has a reputation in this community outside of staffing. (I have no idea if Mansa has ever staffed btw.) If Mansa joined staff and folks knew it, this would color their interpretations of StaffMansa's actions...probably in a good way.
I have a three-part thesis and I don't know if it's true but I'm intrigued: it is,
Player anonymity reduces community trust. (i.e. most people never know who played "Amos")
Staff pseudonymity reduces community trust. (i.e. most people don't know that, fictive example, Shabago == Mansa or whatever)
Anonymity has some value but way less than we think.
I'm a little late in this discussion but for me, I'd rather have staff anonymity than knowing who my staff played, because knowing me, I would be biased, because not every interaction I've had with players though IC interactions are positive ones. I know this isn't a good judge of anything, because me, being a player, wouldn't know how the entire IC story is of how so and so happened. I am always willing to give my fellow players the benefit of a doubt, but it would still color my perspective of this staffer, due to X, Y, and Z.
The ignorance of not knowing exactly who the players behind the PCs that I interact with is actually part of the reason why I can continue to enjoy the game with no pressure. This extends to staff as well.
It could be useful to examine whether contract marriages really have a place in a setting where there is gender equality. It seems like they were introduced as a concept to show how transactional the dealings between noble houses truly are, but they end up undermining the setting in a few ways:
- a contract that stipulates childbearing, that is written by anyone other than the nobles getting married, violates the spirit of rule #2 in that sexual plot lines should be consented to by all parties involved (this, to me, is a big problem because it circles back around to issues with how spotty the rules on consent really are.)
- a contract that stipulates childbearing puts an obvious uneven burden on the AFAB noble involved
- very little room for officialized LGBTQ relationships, in a setting where people are not discriminated against for being LGBTQ
- since there are no ways to maintain the aristocracy's population aside from birthing children, the vast majority of contracts stipulate childbearing, even if in theory a contract doesn't necessarily need to
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 28, 2022, 07:00:00 AM
It could be useful to examine whether contract marriages really have a place in a setting where there is gender equality. It seems like they were introduced as a concept to show how transactional the dealings between noble houses truly are, but they end up undermining the setting in a few ways:
- a contract that stipulates childbearing, that is written by anyone other than the nobles getting married, violates the spirit of rule #2 in that sexual plot lines should be consented to by all parties involved (this, to me, is a big problem because it circles back around to issues with how spotty the rules on consent really are.)
- a contract that stipulates childbearing puts an obvious uneven burden on the AFAB noble involved
- very little room for officialized LGBTQ relationships, in a setting where people are not discriminated against for being LGBTQ
- since there are no ways to maintain the aristocracy's population aside from birthing children, the vast majority of contracts stipulate childbearing, even if in theory a contract doesn't necessarily need to
Currently there is no forced childbearing in forced contract marriages. This is what Brokkr's post explained up-thread. If a player came to me and said "Hestia I want my noble PC to get married" we would have a CONVERSATION about it in the request tool.
The #1 purpose of marriage, in the world of Armageddon, is to secure heirs and offspring to continue the bloodline of the noble house. In the low-tech world of Zalanthas, offspring are produced in the usual way. So far, every player of every PC I've had this discussion with, in my few years of staffing noble houses, has been enthusiastic - not hesitant, not concerned, not coy or shy, about the idea of fathering or birthing offspring. I, being averse to the whole ERP experience, insist on the coupling being 100% virtual. So there's no need for me to ask for consent - since I don't GIVE consent.
But yes if you play a noble, and you want your noble to be married. you need to ACCEPT that fathering or giving birth to a child will /probably/ be a primary goal of the marriage. There are other political reasons for these contracts that don't involve sex at all, instead of sex. But those are rare and thus far it hasn't come up during the two-way conversation between myself and the players of nobles. Other political reasons /are/ part of the marriage contract but typically inconjunction with, rather than a replacement of, offspring.
If for any reason I felt that I'd want to marry a noble off to another house, in a way that the player of the noble might not like, I would make sure that offspring was not a condition of the marriage. I'd come up with something else. You have my promise on that.
Quote from: Hestia on October 28, 2022, 10:01:08 AM
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 28, 2022, 07:00:00 AM
It could be useful to examine whether contract marriages really have a place in a setting where there is gender equality. It seems like they were introduced as a concept to show how transactional the dealings between noble houses truly are, but they end up undermining the setting in a few ways:
- a contract that stipulates childbearing, that is written by anyone other than the nobles getting married, violates the spirit of rule #2 in that sexual plot lines should be consented to by all parties involved (this, to me, is a big problem because it circles back around to issues with how spotty the rules on consent really are.)
- a contract that stipulates childbearing puts an obvious uneven burden on the AFAB noble involved
- very little room for officialized LGBTQ relationships, in a setting where people are not discriminated against for being LGBTQ
- since there are no ways to maintain the aristocracy's population aside from birthing children, the vast majority of contracts stipulate childbearing, even if in theory a contract doesn't necessarily need to
Currently there is no forced childbearing in forced contract marriages. This is what Brokkr's post explained up-thread. If a player came to me and said "Hestia I want my noble PC to get married" we would have a CONVERSATION about it in the request tool.
The #1 purpose of marriage, in the world of Armageddon, is to secure heirs and offspring to continue the bloodline of the noble house. In the low-tech world of Zalanthas, offspring are produced in the usual way. So far, every player of every PC I've had this discussion with, in my few years of staffing noble houses, has been enthusiastic - not hesitant, not concerned, not coy or shy, about the idea of fathering or birthing offspring. I, being averse to the whole ERP experience, insist on the coupling being 100% virtual. So there's no need for me to ask for consent - since I don't GIVE consent.
But yes if you play a noble, and you want your noble to be married. you need to ACCEPT that fathering or giving birth to a child will /probably/ be a primary goal of the marriage. There are other political reasons for these contracts that don't involve sex at all, instead of sex. But those are rare and thus far it hasn't come up during the two-way conversation between myself and the players of nobles. Other political reasons /are/ part of the marriage contract but typically inconjunction with, rather than a replacement of, offspring.
If for any reason I felt that I'd want to marry a noble off to another house, in a way that the player of the noble might not like, I would make sure that offspring was not a condition of the marriage. I'd come up with something else. You have my promise on that.
I appreciate the clarification that forced childbearing no longer happens. When Brokkr said that staff now "try" to communicate and "try" not to surprise players with this, it wasn't entirely clear that contract marriage plots don't include this anymore unless they are player-initiated.
It's still concerning to me that staff-initiated (i.e. forced) contract marriages are still an option, but without the forced childbearing, my concern comes less so from a consent view and more from a viewpoint of overall player autonomy and staff respect toward players.
Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.
Silly me for not clarifying that on OP - the staffing team and, I suspect, the majority of the player base is interested in hearing from players not hell bent on the games destruction for the lulz, through dishonest nonsense, half-truths, or purposefully twisted facts. We're interested in hearing from players that actually like the game, want it to do better and possibly return to it some day. And, of course, those still playing that want the same thing.
Honest concerns can and will be addressed. Honest complaints will be acknowledged and faults apologized for.
Acknowledged complaints or feedback posters to name a few as example:
Delirium's post.
Enders.
IsFriday's.
BadSkeelz
Riev
Acknowledged concerns or legitimate feedback:
Accountability/Transparency
Stagnation
Consent issues
Unclear staff policy
Time respect/Grind
Anything else to be added to the encompassing bullet points above?
Plot consistency.
Apparently, this thread is so old I can't reference it here for whatever reason. Fun fact, it's the first reference for fire-kanks, ever.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39640.msg554550.html#msg554550 (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39640.msg554550.html#msg554550)
It's an old complaint (one I had in 2010 - see above) but it is today as it was back then. Plots are generated, there is staff turn-over and the new staff aren't interested or want to take the thread in a different direction. I could cite a few examples, but I think you're aware, Shabago.
Posting the text for the sake of saving you a click:
"Re: Let's dialogue about plots
« Reply #144 on: September 16, 2010, 04:47:50 PM »
To restate a previous idea, I think that including recent events in documentation and randomly providing particularly information from a list to an accepted leader might be better off than giving them a general overview of their organization. I am not stating that the overview isn't necessary, it simply doesn't provide anything to hit the ground running with a leader.
I would suggest also a change to staff rotation, or at least how the staff and players approach this issue. Even with Imm-inspired plots of long ago, many plots simply seemed to die out after the staff had been replaced/retired. It's changed, but, not in a very helpful manner.
Comparison: Imm-driven plots versus PC-driven plots in the face of a staff rotation.
Imm-driven plots:
NPC: We need barracks. Build barracks.
-Staff rotation months later-
Character: "I've been working on building a new barracks for some tim-"
NPC: "Yeah, that fell through, sucks but YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIREEE!! FIRE-KANKS!!"
-Deals with fire-kank invasion, struggling for some months, staff rotation-
Character: "We've located the fire-kanks nest, and are prepared to in-"
NPC: "Fire-kanks? Why don't you worry about the vestric-zombies eating our gardens!"
Etc.
New policy, staff rotations:
NPC: I'd like to hear what you've been working on.
Character: "I've been working on building a new barracks for some tim-"
NPC: That fell through. What else you got?
Character: "I've been attempting to write up a contract to marry Senior Lad-"
NPC: "She's dead. What else you got?"
Character: "She's dead? Maybe I ought to investigate."
NPC: "Nah. Maybe not. Why aren't you keeping busy?"
While it might be somewhat exaggerated, it's based off things that have actually occurred to my characters, ICly, in both systems. I've attempted the whole 'write an e-mail explaining what you're doing thing' but at times it seems that it's easier to start with a blank page. It's understandable in terms of ease, but it certainly contributes to the sense of frustration. I would've loved to have actually sit down with someone and explain what I am doing, what my motivation are, why I did this or that – and move on from there. The staff doesn't have to comment on whether or not it's a good or bad thing that my character did X or Y, but it will give them a sense of the character's perspective, what's going on in the character/player's head (even if it's completely wrong) and give them a base point to start from."
Quote from: Decameron on October 28, 2022, 11:27:07 AM
Plot consistency.
I could cite a few examples, but I think you're aware, Shabago.
I really am aware on these ones. And a straight up apology to you on how some of those have gone.
I believe those who have churned prematurely do not have a voice here, since they moved on before getting addicted. I am curious what they have to say.
It would be great if you can send an email to all accounts created within the past 5 years with less than 100 hours play (but more than 10 so you eliminate a great chunk), and ask about their opinion, or invite them to a poll.
My wife has an account, I forced her to play a character 7 years ago. I checked her email today and there's 0 email from armageddon since she stopped playing.
Quote from: Decameron on October 28, 2022, 11:27:07 AM
Plot consistency.
I kind of wanna add on to this. There's a lot of posts to go through, so I'm not sure if this is addressed.
Lack of consistency with docs and lore.
One of the main things that kept me coming back to this game is the lore and documentations of the game, and how I am able to create a character within this game world and develop them based on IC interactions, whether they be conflict or not. I enjoy all the docs and lore that make up the game world, and I've noticed recently since my return that there's been a decline in the way people care about documentations or how something is meant to be portrayed.
Consistency is a huge part of the game for me, and while I can stomach through PC interactions, lowering the bar for even leadership/sponsored roles/special roles/etc., and treat those all IC, what really wears on my enjoyment of the game is when it seems that even the game does not care about them anymore. I am not pointing fingers at anyone - heck, I'm
still learning things about the game and I consider myself a perpetual newbie - but being that Armageddon is a collaborative effort, with staff being the backbone of this game, being that their role is to facilitate roleplay, it becomes a little bit more of a drag for me when I think of logging on and playing my character.
When there is no longer consistency in this game, especially when it comes to the really fundamental parts of our game, it is when it begins to fall apart for me, because we can no longer agree on the culture of our PCs, even if we happen to come from the same place and supposedly grew up in the same environment.
The problem is, while it is fine for me to take it all IC and make fun of things that don't seem to fit - whether it be some southern highborn exposing too much skin or a Sun Runner drinking water with no fucks given - it becomes an uphill battle for me when the norm becomes the snowflakes and the OOC becomes the norm, and it becomes absolutely worse when things like this seem to echo in the game world - like stocking kalasiris on the regular within a Tuluki-only shop.
I know I sound really nitpicky, but it is unfortunately the minor things that echo the bigger problem. I
like finding characters that RP out the nuances of their background, the ones that fit within the game lore, and I personally find it a challenge to create characters that fits realistically within the game world (even if I may not be very good at it). So, it is pretty discouraging when I see these things happening.
Removed: You provided some examples of what you meant and I seemingly didn't register them. SORRY!
Quote from: Decameron on October 28, 2022, 11:27:07 AM
Plot consistency.
This, and also informing a player when staff rotation happens, and delays might happen in the answering of reports as a result of it.
The thing is, if I'm reporting to a particular staffer, I assume they are up to speed on what we have talked about before. If I need to change my reports as a result of a new staffer, I would like to know before, rather than after I spend up to hours of my life.
I think that will also help with consistency, as I can not expect a staffer to know everything, but if I know they need a recap, I can provide it.
Quote from: Shabago on October 28, 2022, 10:49:41 AM
Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.
Silly me for not clarifying that on OP - the staffing team and, I suspect, the majority of the player base is interested in hearing from players not hell bent on the games destruction for the lulz, through dishonest nonsense, half-truths, or purposefully twisted facts. We're interested in hearing from players that actually like the game, want it to do better and possibly return to it some day. And, of course, those still playing that want the same thing.
Honest concerns can and will be addressed. Honest complaints will be acknowledged and faults apologized for.
Acknowledged complaints or feedback posters to name a few as example:
Delirium's post.
Enders.
IsFriday's.
BadSkeelz
Riev
Acknowledged concerns or legitimate feedback:
Accountability/Transparency
Stagnation
Consent issues
Unclear staff policy
Time respect/Grind
Anything else to be added to the encompassing bullet points above?
I made a post linking to some of the more specific examples of complaints brought up (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1082345.html#msg1082345). I can't speak to the validity of each of these examples, but hopefully it's convenient and useful.
I think your summarized list of concerns pretty much nails it, though I would add staff communication to that list of concerns. It's semi-related to accountability and transparency, but staff would have fewer negative interactions to be accountable for if staff communication was improved. This discussion has borne a few examples of where staff communication can be clearer, less heavy-handed, and have less of a chilling effect on a playerbase (former, longtime, or recently returning) expressing opinions about a subject matter that they're sensitive about.
I would say that the way you describe trolls in this thread makes it unclear whose feedback was accepted and whose feedback was dismissed. Of course, everyone knows who they are themselves, but your suggestion makes me think that, aside from the posters you listed as examples, practically any three people could have had their concerns dismissed and I wouldn't know which concerns are being taken seriously, and which are not. And because of player privacy (which, of course, deserves to be preserved), we all have to wonder who is being taken seriously and whether it is useful to continue posting as the discussion shifts toward finding solutions. I am willing to assume that this wasn't your intention, but this is how your message reads, especially given the tone taken up and the accusation made that three posters here are trying to destroy the game.
Secondly, shortly after joining the Armageddon Discord server I observed a player attack Is Friday by saying "the person pushing [changes to the consent rules] isn't a saint", to which Shalooonsh replied: "I have a mountain of receipts. Unfortunately, due to my position, I can't show them. But everyone knows they exist." This serves to inflict a similar effect on people: staff can hold proof over people's heads without saying what that proof is, just what it proves.
Continuing to go backwards, the final example I'll bring up is the Halaster/Delirium situation. While that has already been apologized for, it's another example of what kind of effect I'm referring to, where staff can impugn the character of players who critique the game but players have to wonder when their critique is considered "toxic" or "dishonest nonsense" or worthy of becoming a staff member's "receipts".
For what it's worth, I do think the staff mean well, I'm not trying to destroy the game (in fact I have an active character in the game as a direct result of this thread and seeing for myself how the game is going). I do just think that staff may want to read what they write and consider how people without their behind-the-scenes knowledge will read it. I think the cosignature idea I brought up earlier in this thread may be helpful too.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 28, 2022, 12:29:00 PM
Removed: You provided some examples of what you meant and I seemingly didn't register them. SORRY!
XD I was about to elaborate on this, but realized you edited your post.
I still kind of want to elaborate on my post though.
If I were to list out actual examples, it would be kind of IC sensitive/FOIC situations, not individual PCs, but just on what information that is established in certain parts of the game world that you'll just have to figure out when you play there.
It's basically this: I can handle it when it's just a player problem, but when the game stops taking itself seriously, I feel like I can no longer play this game. Kalasiris in a Tuluki-only shop may seem like a really minor problem, but it is an echo of a very serious problem. This is an indication of a lot of 'hand-waving' for the sake of convenience that in turn reduces the overall quality of the game. We try to uphold the docs and create an environment that is uniquely Armageddon, but this seems no longer the case if we consistently ignore things that seem minor, but in reality, chips away at the foundation of our game. If we no longer care about the game, then there really is no point in putting any time and effort into it.
I am probably known for terse, non-empathetic, and occasionally snarky communication. The first two allow me to be efficient. The last one is a personality trait I try to dial down to 1 here from 11 in RL.
The desire to have something like double validation of communications would sabotage many of the other things players have indicated they desire. If anything, we have to be more efficient in the request tool in order to make an impact with things like addressing stagnation.
In some cases like this, it is likely going to be a case of which issue is most important to be addressed for the health of the game.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on October 28, 2022, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: Shabago on October 28, 2022, 10:49:41 AM
Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.
Silly me for not clarifying that on OP - the staffing team and, I suspect, the majority of the player base is interested in hearing from players not hell bent on the games destruction for the lulz, through dishonest nonsense, half-truths, or purposefully twisted facts. We're interested in hearing from players that actually like the game, want it to do better and possibly return to it some day. And, of course, those still playing that want the same thing.
Honest concerns can and will be addressed. Honest complaints will be acknowledged and faults apologized for.
Acknowledged complaints or feedback posters to name a few as example:
Delirium's post.
Enders.
IsFriday's.
BadSkeelz
Riev
Acknowledged concerns or legitimate feedback:
Accountability/Transparency
Stagnation
Consent issues
Unclear staff policy
Time respect/Grind
Anything else to be added to the encompassing bullet points above?
I made a post linking to some of the more specific examples of complaints brought up (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.msg1082345.html#msg1082345). I can't speak to the validity of each of these examples, but hopefully it's convenient and useful.
I think your summarized list of concerns pretty much nails it, though I would add staff communication to that list of concerns. It's semi-related to accountability and transparency, but staff would have fewer negative interactions to be accountable for if staff communication was improved. This discussion has borne a few examples of where staff communication can be clearer, less heavy-handed, and have less of a chilling effect on a playerbase (former, longtime, or recently returning) expressing opinions about a subject matter that they're sensitive about.
I would say that the way you describe trolls in this thread makes it unclear whose feedback was accepted and whose feedback was dismissed. Of course, everyone knows who they are themselves, but your suggestion makes me think that, aside from the posters you listed as examples, practically any three people could have had their concerns dismissed and I wouldn't know which concerns are being taken seriously, and which are not. And because of player privacy (which, of course, deserves to be preserved), we all have to wonder who is being taken seriously and whether it is useful to continue posting as the discussion shifts toward finding solutions. I am willing to assume that this wasn't your intention, but this is how your message reads, especially given the tone taken up and the accusation made that three posters here are trying to destroy the game.
Secondly, shortly after joining the Armageddon Discord server I observed a player attack Is Friday by saying "the person pushing [changes to the consent rules] isn't a saint", to which Shalooonsh replied: "I have a mountain of receipts. Unfortunately, due to my position, I can't show them. But everyone knows they exist." This serves to inflict a similar effect on people: staff can hold proof over people's heads without saying what that proof is, just what it proves.
Continuing to go backwards, the final example I'll bring up is the Halaster/Delirium situation. While that has already been apologized for, it's another example of what kind of effect I'm referring to, where staff can impugn the character of players who critique the game but players have to wonder when their critique is considered "toxic" or "dishonest nonsense" or worthy of becoming a staff member's "receipts".
For what it's worth, I do think the staff mean well, I'm not trying to destroy the game (in fact I have an active character in the game as a direct result of this thread and seeing for myself how the game is going). I do just think that staff may want to read what they write and consider how people without their behind-the-scenes knowledge will read it. I think the cosignature idea I brought up earlier in this thread may be helpful too.
I did say it and it's because it's true, but I don't want to smear or go into detail about a personal thing I wasn't comfortable with in detail because I've seen too many petty flame wars pop up.. But it was also laughable the way I'd been treated more than once that this particular person was so worried about the subject.
Quote from: Decameron on October 28, 2022, 11:27:07 AM
Plot consistency.
And, similarly, NPC consistency. I can't count how many times NPCs have entirely changed behavior when different staff animate them; even when doing twisty head-logic to try and justify it, it throws me for a loop. Sometimes it's downright damaging, such as if you're a political character who's invested a lot in gaining an NPC's backing.
Some staff are great about this. Shabago, for example, can swap between entirely different NPCs and have each one not only have a distinct personality but a memory of past interactions, which was hugely refreshing. I'm not saying everyone needs to hold to that standard, but it would still be hugely helpful to immersion and to feeling a 'part' of the world to keep NPCs consistent. It can be demoralizing to invest a lot and then have it just
not matter.
I think better tracking notes on NPCs could help.
Example: PC Jimbob bribed NPC Jane 500 coins; PC Jimbob saved NPC Jane from political embarrassment
Of course, the inverse is true as well, in keeping track of ongoing rivalries. (Jimbob seriously insulted NPC Jane in public today; NPC Jane got taxes raised on Jimbob; Jimbob hired thieves to ransack NPC Jane's store).
Obviously, we want to focus more on PC-PC actions, and I'm not suggesting that we make this an "Interact with NPCs" game, but some NPC involvement is inevitable in making the world come alive, so consistency there would go a long way in
helping players feel that their actions matter.
I also share Kankfly's issues with documentation consistency, and I was relieved to see it because I have felt ike the oddball out for paying attention to that-- or, when I deliberately break consistency due to some character crisis, it goes unnoticed. The devil is in the details when it comes to telling cohesive stories. Those players/characters who DO notice the little things I do consistency-wise and manipulate/react to it, you have my genuine gratitude for paying attention.
Quote from: zealus on October 28, 2022, 12:33:56 PM
Quote from: Decameron on October 28, 2022, 11:27:07 AM
Plot consistency.
This, and also informing a player when staff rotation happens, and delays might happen in the answering of reports as a result of it.
The thing is, if I'm reporting to a particular staffer, I assume they are up to speed on what we have talked about before. If I need to change my reports as a result of a new staffer, I would like to know before, rather than after I spend up to hours of my life.
I think that will also help with consistency, as I can not expect a staffer to know everything, but if I know they need a recap, I can provide it.
The staff's pretty good on that part, but wasn't at one time like every six months there was one? Would be a good idea to return to that so everyone can expect it when it happens?
Of course, a staffing call also happens and rotations are caused from that.
Quote from: Derain on October 28, 2022, 02:31:09 PM
I did say it and it's because it's true, but I don't want to smear or go into detail about a personal thing I wasn't comfortable with in detail because I've seen too many petty flame wars pop up.. But it was also laughable the way I'd been treated more than once that this particular person was so worried about the subject.
If you're talking about me, then I'd be happy to talk to you about past grievances. DM me if you want.
I also have an issue with documentation consistency.
One page even still features an image of a Kadian family member playing an instrument that got retconned in the past few years ( https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/House%20Kadius ), it's one of the signature instruments of a bardic circle for RL decades. Same with the proliferation of guitars. They are not only on many npcs from Tuluk to Luir's to Blackwing outpost but also have a long history with the bardic circles. While one can argue that they only slipped in 'accidentally', and that they are not thematic, I would like to counter that there are decades of history for these instruments, the documentation widely references them, npcs in the game world still have them and in some cases still sell them, and additionally, from a simple angle of enjoyment and playability? I know you can say that a rebab is similar, but 90%+ of your playerbase is going to be looking it up and treating it just like a violin only less happy because it's not one, and there's already years of history for them.
I know it's small and extremely specific as a nitpick, but when I went to play a bard semirecently, it literally sapped all desire to actually play one when I learned that not only was my top instrument but also my second choice either retconned or being actively discouraged and moved toward retconned in favor of more obscure instruments that players are generally not going to know about. I feel like there is a balance to be struck between how much something adds to versus detracts, and I know the desire to create a unique setting, but these things were already part of that unique setting to the point that there was literal custom artwork that is still posted on the documentation pages on the website depicting it.
I don't expect it to change, but it does make me very sad, and I hope that things like that will be given more consideration in the future before they get pulled from the gameworld in favor of something more obscure in name of 'adding flavor' somehow. Because the more obscure something is, the more homework players are going to have to do, and if the documentation is still referencing it, having to make do with a second string version of it is literally just going to be a set up for them playing their second choice, disappointed, and trying to 'make do' as they readjust their expectations of a role from what the documentation said it was coming in.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 28, 2022, 01:09:14 PM
I am probably known for terse, non-empathetic, and occasionally snarky communication. The first two allow me to be efficient. The last one is a personality trait I try to dial down to 1 here from 11 in RL.
The desire to have something like double validation of communications would sabotage many of the other things players have indicated they desire. If anything, we have to be more efficient in the request tool in order to make an impact with things like addressing stagnation.
In some cases like this, it is likely going to be a case of which issue is most important to be addressed for the health of the game.
I'd like to take a moment to flesh out my cosignature suggestion, since I do think that it can coexist with the need for efficiency in responses.
Specifically, my suggestion is that any response a player might take poorly should probably be cosigned. This is probably not the vast majority of responses. I placed a Join a Clan Forum request yesterday and got a funny gif and a welcome to [clan] message. That's great - I didn't need another staff member to cosign that one. I'm specifically suggesting that more delicate situations do require a lighter touch, and I do think that it's an important consideration given how many people have brought up feeling disrespected, underappreciated, or alienated.
What these more delicate responses are would be left to staff discretion, and probably change from player to player, but I think these responses would fall into the category of "most likely needs review":
1) Responses to staff complaints. Since these have to be investigated anyway, it stands to reason that a couple of staff members can get together to write a compassionate response. Given how few staff complaints actually go in (just a guess from glancing at the weekly updates for the past couple months), I think the slight extra requirement of peer review would go a long way here.
2) A final response to a rejected idea (in custom crafts, character reports, etc.). Players generally don't like being told "no". Speaking for myself, if I worked hard on an elaborate idea or report and got a terse, negative response to it, I would be less inclined to put in additional effort in the future. If enough players do this, this would contribute to stagnation at least as much as a delayed response to a request would. On the other hand, if I knew that two staff members reviewed my request and wrote a response explaining why my idea won't fit in the game, provided alternatives or suggestions, and signed off with a hopeful message encouraging me to try again, I certainly would try again.
3) In general, harsh-toned responses on the forums and Discord. I already discussed my examples in my previous post so I won't re-hash them here, but I do think in each circumstance that if another staff member or two read those messages, they would have been revised to be more diplomatic or possibly held back until they could be rewritten. A little extra time to let extreme feelings subside can go a long way, too.
I'll be honest, if responding to a player in a way that nudges said player towards not wanting to play anymore isn't something a staffer is capable of, perhaps said staffer shouldn't be charged with responding to players.
Efficiency and courtesy aren't even a little bit mutually exclusive.
I've been toying with the idea of returning to the game again for some time now, but truth told some of the staff responses to some of the discussion in this thread alone are giving some pause-- and I'm saying this as someone without any bad experiences with the higher-ups.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 28, 2022, 01:09:14 PM
I am probably known for terse, non-empathetic, and occasionally snarky communication. The first two allow me to be efficient. The last one is a personality trait I try to dial down to 1 here from 11 in RL.
How does being non-empathetic improve communication efficiency? I argue being empathic allows far
greater effectiveness. Being aware and receptive to the other speaker's emotional states, motivations and desires allows even very terse communication to contain much more cogent information. It is not only more efficient and effective, it is also more satisfying for the recipient.
Terse, non-empathic and occasionally snarky (even at "1") will get you fired as an employee or detested and passively sabotaged as a superior.
The only place I can see it being appropriate is from a superior in a chain-of-command situation where the subordinate's opinion or self-interest are valueless and inherently counterproductive to the mission.
Please don't view this as an assault, but as a fundamental disagreement about the nature of cooperative communication and perhaps as a small insight into a few of the larger issues already raised in this thread.
Seeker
Are you discounting the time it gets to know the other person enough to be empathetic? While if I get to know someone over time of course I am empathetic, if I am dealing with 30+ people in my clans as I did when a Storyteller, it is unlikely I know very much about most of the players. While players are typically dealing with 1-2 Staff at a time and their emotional energy can be concentrated towards that, Staff's emotional energy is split over a much broader number of people. Nevermind the emotional drain every time you end up embracing a scorpion and just keeping straight who is who.
So tone is often similar to what you direct to an internal colleague you have never met in a large multinational corporation. [snark](dry, to the point, soulless)[/snark]
Although admittedly dispassionate would probably have been a better word to use.
.... So what I'm picking up here is that Brokkr should probably be tasked with engaging with players that don't mind being spoken to like they're a faceless cog in the machine, while players that wish to be spoken to like people trying to have fun with their fun hobby should be seen to by other.
no disrespect bb <3Quote from: Shabago on October 28, 2022, 10:49:41 AM
Anything else to be added to the encompassing bullet points above?
Like... Man. Tone has been such an issue for so many people for such a long time now.
It's a pretty common, if not the most common complaint I ever hear about from players past and present, what's the roadmap on sorting that out? Is there even a plan?
Damn, the beauty of that silliness is that I can't even talk about how if you can't handle level 1 snark on the internet, you probably shouldn't be on the internet, without starting a train wreck.
Damn you strategists.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 28, 2022, 09:40:22 PM
Damn, the beauty of that silliness is that I can't even talk about how if you can't handle level 1 snark on the internet, you probably shouldn't be on the internet, without starting a train wreck.
Damn you strategists.
On one hand, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
On the other though, this
is by and large a discussion on player retention. Considering that the landscape of the interwebs just ain't what it used to be, there aren't very many good alternatives to adapting.
True. But I'm a hard-to-retain player and most of the reason has to do with a player shift, not a staff shift, so I get to throw my peanuts too.
For me, the #1 game related reason I don't log in is that I am waiting on a staff response on an open request.
Usually for one of two reasons:
I need to know what the Clan's official position on something is, so I can address something with PCs that is currently ambiguous. If it is something that ICly my character would know, or would be able to find out quickly, but I OOCly don't know, it becomes awkward avoiding those PCs in game or avoiding the mekillot in the room.
The other reason is needing to know if I have the green light to proceed with something, and not wanting to spend time or energy on a pursuit that is going to get the red light in a few days when the response arrives.
I say this fully aware that I am not always timely with my own reports and it's a selfish perspective, but it's the honest answer to the OP's question. I do try to make such questions stand out so they aren't buried. I usually have a bit of momentum when I write the request, and as the weeks pass that momentum fades and plots move on in game to the point of sometimes making the original request questions moot.
I've been wanting to post in this thread for awhile now, but it was a matter of finding the time to collect my thoughts. But as I lay here in my hotel room, drinking wine and the weight of it on my mind, I decided there's no better time than the present. Some of the things I'll mention have been said before, and I think that's fine. These are my personal reasons for not playing the game. I will try not to make this about how I see the game best administrated, but I will, of course, add a few suggestions. This is merely how I see it. I will not be doing the typical white dude thing, and insisting that only I know the correct way to resolve these conflicts-- that is ultimately for the staff body to discuss and decide. You are the caretakers of the game we all love.
So, I'll start off with this: I had been playing the game. I had a lull in my work, and I had grown bored of my other vices, and so, drawn by the temptation of Tuluk's re-opening, I made a new character. I managed to put in the sort of hours typical to my old playtimes, something like three hours a day. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But about three hours a day, or 20 hours a week. I will share my observations, they are my own, and I know that some will relate while others will not. I lay them out to dissect as you please.
I will break them down into three categories: Time, Bureaucracy and Transparency.
Time
---
For the better part of six years, I consistently played leader characters on this game. I was never the best at writing reports and writing them regularly, but I'm gonna chalk that up to being more present in the game. From 2010-2016, I played a Sergeant in the Legions (90 days played), a Kuraci Agent (50 days played) and a Byn Sergeant (35 days played). I'd be lying if I said I wasn't having fun then-- I was! I hope the people I played with were also having fun, too. But what ultimately wore me down, and turned me off of any serious role in this game was the fact that I felt I could never get a real plot off the ground. There was always something else the staff was more interested to run. Sometimes, you'd just get the flat "No." I tried my ass off. I think I was a good player, I didn't talk about the game OOC, and I handled it all with the severity one would with an evolving work of art. And I don't honestly think anything ever came of it for me. Top that off with the fact that I watched people around me running to their heart's content, and it became heavily demoralizing. I realize some people will say boo hoo, but I'd also bet there are plenty of players who had a similar experience. This began my road towards a perception of favoritism in the game. I powered through for years, but at some point it felt like people were valuing their time greatly above my own. I had given to the game, and I felt like I got nothing back from it, -other than the great times with the characters I met along the way-. I decided that was enough for me, and tried other, less staff-reliant roles, but my playtime dropped off dramatically as my interest drifted towards other, non-MUD games.
When I finally did return more recently, my entire life was different. I had a demanding career, teenage children, and always a love interest at hand who needed my time more than a game. Family obligations, and other, more rewarding interests. I certainly could not blame the game for that change in availability. But what I noticed, and what I think many people with similar lives to my own will attest: The game is too much of a grind to make any worthwhile impact unless you have a lot of time to sink into it. And again, as described, I -did- have that time last summer, and I just dove into it. I didn't tell a soul, not even my closest friends from Arm. Based off of that experience, I will admit: You've added a feature into a military clan that I found to be very solid. It has risk, and it has reward, and they are fairly well balanced. And it adds -motion to the game-. What I'd like to suggest as a further to that, and I know it's been suggested before: make an option for characters to come with skills mostly leveled. You can drop the cap of the skills down a notch for balance. A sort of area between low floor/high ceiling and high floor/low ceiling. a) Raw Talent b) Developed Skill. Raise the skills up to a notch below the undercut max, and leave branched skills as something they have to grind. But you instantly inject characters into the game with the ability to contribute without having to fritter away their limited time into a braindead grind. Some will love the grind, I do. But I'm willing to bet a lot of people who just don't have the time to play regularly would love the option to enter the game ready to contribute. Even if it came at a cost of high end skill.
Bureaucracy
---
It always irked me so much that staff could leave you hanging and just blip that request tool. THIS MATTER IS CLOSED. Lol, I've seen that used so dramatically as to appear like a cartoon. If you're tired of dealing with a player, -ask someone else to do it-. Or better yet, hire a fuckin' PR person who has the social intelligence to act with some savvy. There is a point where communication breaks down, and that is usually where the relationship between any two people will die. This is too small of a community for there to be a web of "well, this person .. " going around the entire game. Double that for staff talking shit about players on their protected channels. But to the meat of the point, if you're just ticking boxes by closing reports, you're not communicating effectively. In fact, you're doing damage to the relationships with your players. Which, by the way, if you hadn't noticed, it's actually fucking essential to the health and longevity of your game.
Another thing I noticed, and I won't touch on it in much detail because it is not a personal experience of mine, but it does seem this bloviated bureacracy that exists in the staff land often handcuffs the Storytellers from doing anything efficiently. Open up the world a little bit. Have a little trust. It's a two way street, trust. You give and you get.
Transparency
---
I'll start this off with a story. I had city-based a Krathi who lived in the Rinth who couldn't find a single thing to do but solo RP. For a lot of players, that's great, but it wasn't my bag. I got bored, and I left Allanak, heading off for Luir's. And even though it was obvious I had no business being out in the desert, I was making my way, like I'd done in the game a million times before. Good weather, if I recall, else I wouldn't have even tried it. I made it about halfway before I was the butt end of an animation. I say butt end, and I'll explain why. At first it was a lot of fun, and I can tell the person on the other end was skilled at storytelling. They animated gith, they emoted them. I started picking up my pace, but they showed up to fight. And I ran. Of course, I did! And the animations continued, and I emoted hauling my ass out of there as I hauled my ass out of there. And there was a good feeling that I'd gotten away. A lesson was forming in my mind. Hey, you felt in your gut you shouldn't have done that, and you did it anyway. It was coalescing. Then came the 40+ HP staff arrow. Then came the mantis head. To this day, I do not know who robbed me of that moment. I didn't ask. Instead, my trust with staff just withered. An enjoyable scene rolled over and became a coded repercussion at the drop of a hat. I'm aware that some players just love making new characters, and have hundreds of them. That was never me, nor did I enjoy having to regenerate the karma. I let it go with whoever that was, but my distrust of staff has not repaired, largely because I just didn't understand it, and was left to expect it. If you want your game to be grimdark and tryhard to a comical extreme, that's fine. I've been told it used to be a total clown show. But I didn't sign up to play ShittyPants McStreetTaco. I'm playing a player character, and you're inhabiting a staff avatar. You can crush me between your fingers. I crush you! I think one suggestion worth entertaining is having staff visible at all times when logged into the game. Their personal anonymity should be absolutely intact, for obvious safety reasons. But they should never be allowed to use the anonymity of their staff persona to perform abusive actions. I realize my case is not really that much of a deal. I didn't care about that character the next day. But there are far worse things that have happened to people in this game, and staff hiding and acting under the guise of Someone leaves very few with a comfortable feeling. And the way I see it, any reasoning for not doing it is just a lazy excuse, and you'd have a tough time convincing me why. This ain't my first rodeo.
The last thing I'll bring up is account notes. I've been told my account notes are very neutral. Nothing good or bad really. In a way, I find that almost more embarrassing than people who have catsex notes on their accounts. But more seriously, I think account notes are just a toxic feature. I'm sure the rationale is well-intentioned, but there's just too much of an opportunity for people to weaponize these sort of tools to paint players they don't like in a bad light. Tell me it's never been done, and I'll make a good faith effort to believe you and put it out of mind. But I betcha I'm not wrong. The best thing I think you can do is make account notes public to a player, even the shitty ones, so they can use this as a method for growth in their play. And don't tell me you already do it. Having them grovel for it on your bureaucratic merry go round is not an effective communication tool. At best, it's Pavlovian. Just make it a public tool, public in the sense that the player can see their own notes. All of them.
And I'll cap all of this off with the admission that I'm not perfect, and I'm not expecting anyone from this game, player or staff, to be perfect. If I reflect on my life now, there have been failures, but by and large, I have lived an enviable life with a great deal of success. And all told, I consider Armageddon to be a fail. At 41, I grow pale imagining what I could've done more productively with my time back then. But there were those moments, and we played and endured for them. And I just don't feel those moments exist for me here anymore. I gave it a shot here recently, the ol' college try. It wasn't there for me, and maybe it's me. Maybe you fixed everything I thought was wrong with the game, and I still couldn't get back into it. After awhile, the magick is gone.
This is something that I noticed that no one really posted about but is in a in way tied to time invested and what is given back. Most of the characters that play tend to be crafters but I really dislike the crafting system. Sure, I do like the discovery of new crafts but that doesn't happen often. Maybe it's because I don't take the time in analyze most items because I know there is a ton with recipes either through the custom crafting system or via staff. I guess what I don't like about the custom crafting system is that most of the craftable items/recipes that I made don't surface up after my character first creates the item. I'm not sure how useful this feedback is but it's my two sids.
I guess a lot of things that I don't like about Arm goes in the whole "time invested vs. what you get out of it" group of feedback.
Quote from: Kismetic on October 29, 2022, 12:18:33 AM
Then came the 40+ HP staff arrow. Then came the mantis head. To this day, I do not know who robbed me of that moment. I didn't ask. Instead, my trust with staff just withered.
I was under impression staff could not do direct actions like these that result in a death of a character. Each time an animation results in death, they need to make a report about it.
At least that's how it was awhile ago. When did this thing happen? I would personally inquire about it, because im pretty surd that kill shot was against the rules.
It's something I probably should've reached out about, but at the time I didn't expect much. That could be on me. In the end, I used it as an example of something that happened to me. Mostly a nothing burger. But the point was meant to be, worse things have happened to others.
Quote from: Dar on October 29, 2022, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: Kismetic on October 29, 2022, 12:18:33 AM
Then came the 40+ HP staff arrow. Then came the mantis head. To this day, I do not know who robbed me of that moment. I didn't ask. Instead, my trust with staff just withered.
I was under impression staff could not do direct actions like these that result in a death of a character. Each time an animation results in death, they need to make a report about it.
At least that's how it was awhile ago. When did this thing happen? I would personally inquire about it, because im pretty surd that kill shot was against the rules.
Staff can absolutely gib your PC. They typically give warning (such as animating/echoing impending Gith doom) and typically give you a chance to GTFO if it's an obviously dangerous area, but if you stick around, they definitely have a green light to kill you (or at least not pull punches) when it makes game world sense to do so.
They also absolutely follow up with a PK report to their admin. That was true as of like 2013 when I was on Staff in 2012. But that Pk report isn't public to the player, and I don't recall Staff reaching out to a player to explain a death unless it was an accident.
I was responsible for one such mistake that lead to a whole kerfuffle and OOC bad blood with the player, I believe they turned to the dark side after this. There was a riot going on in Allanak, and soldiers were protecting one Templar or another, I believe it was the lead up to the Jade Massacre.
I was animating a NPC who had a throwing knife (at least I thought I was). I missed on my prompt that i was not in the NPC when I equipped a throwing knife and threw it at a PC. Obviously Staff strength is set to like 9 billion, so the PC instantly died. After a moment of WTF, I realized it was a mistake and pinged Adhira who was online. We immediately reached out to the player and apologized and wanted to rez them. They refused, believing it to be a Staff collusion plot to kill their PC. And from there they went over to the shadow boards and complained about it for years.
Conversely, I had a PC recently that was a leader in the North. Almost every time I took a patrol out I encountered a Big Bad PC. The Big Bad PC presumably felt our patrols were after them, and took it as a sign to engage us before we engaged him. In actuality, we were just patrolling, looking for like bandit NPCs and an attempt for me to provide fun for the PCs under me. That being said, if we were engaged, I would absolutely try (completely fruitlessly due to the power of this Big Bad) to engage/scare off/potentially harm this PC.
Fast forward to my Staff correspondence and my point about "false omnipotence" when it comes to Staffing. I asked for more tools and capability to combat threats like this Big Bad PC, who was thumbing their nose at a city state. I relied on that point on NPC animations to fill in skill gaps that helped deflate this PCs power against a virtually superior force. I was told it wasn't very smart to continually chase this PC and try to boop him on the nose and get the same result every time. As if I was the aggressor!
It just goes to show that "group think" is VERY easy for Staff to fall into. They hear the POV of one Staffer on a situation, and that's how all Staff begin to think about it. There is only a little skepticism in my experience between Staff sharing material and recaps. It has a personal bias and spin almost always.
I see Staff (like in Haldol's posts) that players don't have all the information and only one side of the story. The same is absolutely true of Staff — they are not omnipotent. Run Logs don't provide the context of game events happening in the moment. Time stamps don't always provide the relevant experience of what went down and how. Couple this with Staff knowledge is reliant upon other Staff filling in details, or PC reports, both of which have implicit bias in what and how it is mentioned or recapped.
Again, I would urge both players and staff to give more benefit of the doubt and not assume they are more or less knowledgeable than each other. Take people At their word. If they are caught in a bold faced lie, call them on it. But otherwise, so much of what happens in Arm is grey at best, dependent on POV and if you were there or not to experience it fully.
Quote from: Shabago on October 23, 2022, 08:58:56 PM
- On the grind. We have taken steps to alleviate this for areas of the game that more rapid training would make sense. Beyond that, we continue talks on what other tweaks we can make that will both serve as respect to player time involvement and to do away with what some of you state as risk-aversion play due to not wanting to 'grind up again'.
I'd like to pick this point up for a bit. I know what you're talking about - the combat grind in certain clans has been reduced. But there's also the 'non-combat' grind. By that I mean the footwork that's required for non-combat coded tasks, usually on your own. That part has just been steadily increasing over the years with economy fixes that increase the time and effort required to get some coin together, the various decaying items and more complicated poison and brew recipes. This sort of ties into the complaint of 'the game feels slow', because it reduces the time you can spend interacting with other players and it just takes more time played to get these things done. Armageddon is meant to be a roleplaying game, not a simulation.
My suggestion is to take this 'other grind' into account for future code changes and not add any more of that.
I'm gonna throw out there that I was not fishing for an apology, nor did I think it was that egregious. Did it piss me off? Yeah, for a little bit. But it was mostly deflating and left me with a feeling of distrust. I had a feeling when I wrote it that there would be a litany of replies to the tune of "well, that's harsh desert world, fella." Ultimately, I included it because it was my experience, it did contribute to my soured experience with the game, and that was the ask of this thread.
Quote from: Kismetic on October 29, 2022, 11:49:11 AM
I'm gonna throw out there that I was not fishing for an apology, nor did I think it was that egregious. Did it piss me off? Yeah, for a little bit. But it was mostly deflating and left me with a feeling of distrust. I had a feeling when I wrote it that there would be a litany of replies to the tune of "well, that's harsh desert world, fella." Ultimately, I included it because it was my experience, it did contribute to my soured experience with the game, and that was the ask of this thread.
Oh I totally agree with you if that's what you got from my response. I think all of our experiences are our own — i can easily see why that situation created distrust. It takes time to come back from that if ever.
Your post resonates with me as well, particularly in time sink ratio and our age/kids/job. Just not the same as it was 20 years ago. I do really like your suggestion of "skilled new PC" that perhaps doesn't gain skill as easily. I would happily play that to avoid the grind, and the grind from nothing is probably what bums me out the most about starting a new PC.
Quote from: Nao on October 29, 2022, 11:45:33 AM
Quote from: Shabago on October 23, 2022, 08:58:56 PM
- On the grind....
...That part has just been steadily increasing over the years with economy fixes that increase the time and effort required to get some coin together, the various decaying items and more complicated poison and brew recipes. This sort of ties into the complaint of 'the game feels slow', because it reduces the time you can spend interacting with other players and it just takes more time played to get these things done. Armageddon is meant to be a roleplaying game, not a simulation.
My suggestion is to take this 'other grind' into account for future code changes and not add any more of that.
Quoted for truth, bolded for emphasis.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 29, 2022, 12:01:08 PM
Your post resonates with me as well, particularly in time sink ratio and our age/kids/job. Just not the same as it was 20 years ago. I do really like your suggestion of "skilled new PC" that perhaps doesn't gain skill as easily. I would happily play that to avoid the grind, and the grind from nothing is probably what bums me out the most about starting a new PC.
Even if there are occasions when I do have time to play the game, those are few and far between. I'd say this is the main reason I had not been playing.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 29, 2022, 11:21:39 AM
Quote from: Dar on October 29, 2022, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: Kismetic on October 29, 2022, 12:18:33 AM
Then came the 40+ HP staff arrow. Then came the mantis head. To this day, I do not know who robbed me of that moment. I didn't ask. Instead, my trust with staff just withered.
I was under impression staff could not do direct actions like these that result in a death of a character. Each time an animation results in death, they need to make a report about it.
At least that's how it was awhile ago. When did this thing happen? I would personally inquire about it, because im pretty surd that kill shot was against the rules.
Staff can absolutely gib your PC. They typically give warning (such as animating/echoing impending Gith doom) and typically give you a chance to GTFO if it's an obviously dangerous area, but if you stick around, they definitely have a green light to kill you (or at least not pull punches) when it makes game world sense to do so.
They also absolutely follow up with a PK report to their admin. That was true as of like 2013 when I was on Staff in 2012. But that Pk report isn't public to the player, and I don't recall Staff reaching out to a player to explain a death unless it was an accident.
I was responsible for one such mistake that lead to a whole kerfuffle and OOC bad blood with the player, I believe they turned to the dark side after this. There was a riot going on in Allanak, and soldiers were protecting one Templar or another, I believe it was the lead up to the Jade Massacre.
I was animating a NPC who had a throwing knife (at least I thought I was). I missed on my prompt that i was not in the NPC when I equipped a throwing knife and threw it at a PC. Obviously Staff strength is set to like 9 billion, so the PC instantly died. After a moment of WTF, I realized it was a mistake and pinged Adhira who was online. We immediately reached out to the player and apologized and wanted to rez them. They refused, believing it to be a Staff collusion plot to kill their PC. And from there they went over to the shadow boards and complained about it for years.
Conversely, I had a PC recently that was a leader in the North. Almost every time I took a patrol out I encountered a Big Bad PC. The Big Bad PC presumably felt our patrols were after them, and took it as a sign to engage us before we engaged him. In actuality, we were just patrolling, looking for like bandit NPCs and an attempt for me to provide fun for the PCs under me. That being said, if we were engaged, I would absolutely try (completely fruitlessly due to the power of this Big Bad) to engage/scare off/potentially harm this PC.
Fast forward to my Staff correspondence and my point about "false omnipotence" when it comes to Staffing. I asked for more tools and capability to combat threats like this Big Bad PC, who was thumbing their nose at a city state. I relied on that point on NPC animations to fill in skill gaps that helped deflate this PCs power against a virtually superior force. I was told it wasn't very smart to continually chase this PC and try to boop him on the nose and get the same result every time. As if I was the aggressor!
It just goes to show that "group think" is VERY easy for Staff to fall into. They hear the POV of one Staffer on a situation, and that's how all Staff begin to think about it. There is only a little skepticism in my experience between Staff sharing material and recaps. It has a personal bias and spin almost always.
I see Staff (like in Haldol's posts) that players don't have all the information and only one side of the story. The same is absolutely true of Staff — they are not omnipotent. Run Logs don't provide the context of game events happening in the moment. Time stamps don't always provide the relevant experience of what went down and how. Couple this with Staff knowledge is reliant upon other Staff filling in details, or PC reports, both of which have implicit bias in what and how it is mentioned or recapped.
Again, I would urge both players and staff to give more benefit of the doubt and not assume they are more or less knowledgeable than each other. Take people At their word. If they are caught in a bold faced lie, call them on it. But otherwise, so much of what happens in Arm is grey at best, dependent on POV and if you were there or not to experience it fully.
So that 40 hp arrow from another room after he escaped and was resting was legit?
I dunno. I don't think either of us were there or have enough information to make a judgement either way. Kismet it was there, and experienced it regardless, and it created a feeling of distrust. So it doesn't really matter if it was legitimate or not.
I wasn't resting, I was running to Luir's. I was maybe a handful of rooms away, on that last stretch before you turn west for the gate. This is a recollection from years past. Not exactly sure when, but sometime in the last five years?
Don't get me started on 40-60hp arrows. Had my noble sniped out of a huge group of soldiers that way. Like... silliest thing ever that you can pick out one person during a massive battle. Made even sillier that this person allegedly had several strength buffing rings. Arm often is just a personal playground for some players.
Quote from: Nao on October 29, 2022, 11:45:33 AM
Quote from: Shabago on October 23, 2022, 08:58:56 PM
- On the grind. We have taken steps to alleviate this for areas of the game that more rapid training would make sense. Beyond that, we continue talks on what other tweaks we can make that will both serve as respect to player time involvement and to do away with what some of you state as risk-aversion play due to not wanting to 'grind up again'.
I'd like to pick this point up for a bit. I know what you're talking about - the combat grind in certain clans has been reduced. But there's also the 'non-combat' grind. By that I mean the footwork that's required for non-combat coded tasks, usually on your own. That part has just been steadily increasing over the years with economy fixes that increase the time and effort required to get some coin together, the various decaying items and more complicated poison and brew recipes. This sort of ties into the complaint of 'the game feels slow', because it reduces the time you can spend interacting with other players and it just takes more time played to get these things done. Armageddon is meant to be a roleplaying game, not a simulation.
My suggestion is to take this 'other grind' into account for future code changes and not add any more of that.
Something I forgot: some of the changes that are intended to force players to cooperate also tie into this. I get the intention - you'd rather have people interacting than playing arm solo and just running around alone all day.
But with reduced player numbers (and offpeak play, though I also see this happening on peak) - if something
requires two or three players to happen, that often means it's not happening at all, adding to the feeling of "nothing is happening". Because there simply is no other PC that can fill the exact niche that you need.
Most of us want to interact with other players, and will go out of our way to create that interaction. There wouldn't be so many complaints about low numbers if we didn't want to interact - I swear we do. The new classes were designed to not work well on their own, for the most part, but it feels counterproductive when you can't get anything done because you can't get a hold of the right PCs with the right combination of skills. I think that strategy of requiring two or three different PCs for coded tasks should be revisited to reduce that feeling of stagnation.
That Armageddon is still at the stage of relying on clunky old run logs seems like it's a big issue that has a knock-on effect on SO many other things that comes up that affect both players and staff - there's been situations where I've been told things that I know absolutely are not true and have had to say once or even twice please please look at the log argh :D
Like no one's ever really developed a set of proper human-readable filters for logs for staff, because it's not cool and gives headlines like other new features do :) I think this should be made a priority, so that there's no so much reliance on she-said he-said stuff. It should be immediately easy for pulling logs. It should be something that's easy to casually read for staff to catch up on RP they missed, instead of people wanting to avoid it because it's a nightmare of code spam? :)
Maybe something like this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150827111847/http://spad.co.uk/cohlog.php
They shouldn't be deleted either but put into cold storage if there's a cost issue, stuff that seems not relevant at the time might be years later for new staff that want to expand on lore of characters that are present then but are then historical figures, etc
On the subject of grind... We have a case study for this already, if you think about it, it's the same issue as letting people make throwaway magickers/super strong giants/muls, since they are already leagues ahead of everyone else by their nature - doing the same with mundane skills seems like it's moving in the same direction - but maybe a wrong one, for the game?
It makes it feel like the time people invest in a character is not respected (it goes both ways!), because people can just make a throwaway they don't really care about and treating characters like that devalues the RP for the people who invest more time in fostering plots and RP between groups (imagine if you were in the war RPT and someone was able to just respawn throwaways on one side of the battle)
Quote from: Kismetic on October 29, 2022, 10:55:17 AM
It's something I probably should've reached out about, but at the time I didn't expect much. That could be on me. In the end, I used it as an example of something that happened to me. Mostly a nothing burger. But the point was meant to be, worse things have happened to others.
It can take a bit to get used to animating in the heat of the moment. In this case, it was a brand new Staff member that didn't notice the gith they loaded up had master archery. And since you got dropped to -8, apparently not much time to figure out what to do afterwards before the mantis head.
Related to the talk about grind above, I'm not a fan at all of the new poisons. I think the potency stuff is somewhat cool barring the decay, but the cures and the cure system is horrible and only gives crappy deaths.
Dying even after taking four cures should not be a thing, in my honest opinion!
Quote from: Orlau on October 29, 2022, 12:57:18 PM
Related to the talk about grind above, I'm not a fan at all of the new poisons. I think the potency stuff is somewhat cool barring the decay, but the cures and the cure system is horrible and only gives crappy deaths.
Dying even after taking four cures should not be a thing, in my honest opinion!
Cures apparently aren't working properly, though staff didn't give any details on that.
I'm also very disappointed with how the poison changes turned out, but it seems like a dead horse at this point.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 29, 2022, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on October 29, 2022, 10:55:17 AM
It's something I probably should've reached out about, but at the time I didn't expect much. That could be on me. In the end, I used it as an example of something that happened to me. Mostly a nothing burger. But the point was meant to be, worse things have happened to others.
It can take a bit to get used to animating in the heat of the moment. In this case, it was a brand new Staff member that didn't notice the gith they loaded up had master archery. And since you got dropped to -8, apparently not much time to figure out what to do afterwards before the mantis head.
The exact opposite is also true. We had a request from a player to kill off their well-known character in lieu of storage. Circumstances were perfect for accommodating this particular request. So I loaded up a beastie during an event their character was participating in. Unfortunately, I didn't check to see the beastie's stats. They sucked. And they didn't have the right skills to do the job - I had loaded up the wrong mob (there were a few, with different skillsets, of the same type of beastie). The PC made quick work of the beastie. It took another couple events to finally get it right.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 29, 2022, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on October 29, 2022, 10:55:17 AM
It's something I probably should've reached out about, but at the time I didn't expect much. That could be on me. In the end, I used it as an example of something that happened to me. Mostly a nothing burger. But the point was meant to be, worse things have happened to others.
It can take a bit to get used to animating in the heat of the moment. In this case, it was a brand new Staff member that didn't notice the gith they loaded up had master archery. And since you got dropped to -8, apparently not much time to figure out what to do afterwards before the mantis head.
I appreciate the explanation, it does mean a lot to hear it. Thank you.
Quote from: Hestia on October 29, 2022, 01:30:53 PM
The exact opposite is also true. We had a request from a player to kill off their well-known character in lieu of storage. Circumstances were perfect for accommodating this particular request. So I loaded up a beastie during an event their character was participating in. Unfortunately, I didn't check to see the beastie's stats. They sucked. And they didn't have the right skills to do the job - I had loaded up the wrong mob (there were a few, with different skillsets, of the same type of beastie). The PC made quick work of the beastie. It took another couple events to finally get it right.
That's pretty funny. And I understand, shit happens. You could fill my honest mistakes in a thread of its own. This was a smaller reason, all said, but I appreciate the explanations no less.
I would appreciate your thoughts, folks.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58565.msg1082671.html#new
Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.
I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.
Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!
Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.
Quote from: Vwest on October 29, 2022, 05:36:59 PM
Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.
I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.
Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!
Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.
This is a good example of giving benefit of the doubt. Just at a glance, they were talking just recently about how removing the karma timers may mess with people's karma and zero it out as a bug (because it's code), and to put in a request about it if that's the case.
If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 29, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 29, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).
I think that's a really great call -- Putting it in the game MOTD / News that your karma might be funky if it's been a while (years) since you logged in. After all, there was karma problems when they went from 8 to 3 and needed some manual setting, etc. So a returning player from a WHILE ago might find their karma is really funky.
(I should learn not to make statements like "this is the last time I'll post here" and say more accurately "this is the last time I'll hash out this particular topic", hah. Ironic, considering the post I want to make.
Being frank, I still have no desire to return, but I do desire to see the game do better, and am watching the discussion.)
Brokkr-- I have a strong suspicion that wires are getting crossed by word choice. Try replacing the word 'empathy' with 'tact' and see how that sounds to you?
I can imagine that taking the time to consider how your words may impact someone sounds like additional work, but I promise that it reaps huge dividends down the road. I've had a very similar issue and it's still a work in progress. I can come across as terse or antagonistic when my intent is actually to be honest and state my viewpoint, in hopes of open communication.
It's been years of work recognizing speech patterns and word choices and making adjustments to better communicate my intent and not just my meaning. (I won't get into how gender affects perceived voice here, but that also definitely comes into play). It will never be perfect as sometimes people are going to read things in a negative light or take feedback poorly, and I've learned that I can't torment myself (and others) by re-hashing issues to try and find "the right way" to say something in the hopes that my intent will come across and actual communication can happen-- sometimes people just aren't receptive. Or personalities don't mix. Or a situation is untenable. That's life.
Better communication is still worth the effort. It will never be perfect but striving for tact and mutual understanding helps immensely in reaching a positive result, though it does require honest effort from both parties.
Quote from: Vwest on October 29, 2022, 05:36:59 PM
Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.
I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.
Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!
Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.
Taking a quick glance at this you haven't logged in for approx 6-7 years? We've had multiple changes to the karma systems since then. Maybe send in a request for clarification as there is no conspiracy involving your account.
Quote from: Delirium on October 29, 2022, 07:34:21 PM
Better communication is still worth the effort. It will never be perfect but striving for tact and mutual understanding helps immensely in reaching a positive result, though it does require honest effort from both parties.
Have you ever heard the stories and reports of Germans working in Japan? It's kind of funny but I can relate to it personally (was raised in a german household), anyways the Germans didn't really get along with their Japanese coworkers since they prefer being direct, leaving when the work is done (Japanese work culture can be pretty toxic), and basically never beating around the bush. Japanese culture is almost the complete opposite, they have a lot of traditions they hold to in the work place, and they tend to waste a lot of time doing menial tasks and other things that the Germans found to be quite pointless and maddening to a degree.
I think it's funny but it applies here in this semi-serious discussion going on about Arm and how people communicate differently. I doubt it will help overall but it's something of a fun read if you get time to research it.
Quote from: Aromit on October 29, 2022, 07:36:44 PM
Quote from: Vwest on October 29, 2022, 05:36:59 PM
Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.
I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.
Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!
Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.
Taking a quick glance at this you haven't logged in for approx 6-7 years? We've had multiple changes to the karma systems since then. Maybe send in a request for clarification as there is no conspiracy involving your account.
Or I can just fix it, which I have done.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 29, 2022, 06:21:32 PM
Quote from: dumbstruck on October 29, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).
I think that's a really great call -- Putting it in the game MOTD / News that your karma might be funky if it's been a while (years) since you logged in. After all, there was karma problems when they went from 8 to 3 and needed some manual setting, etc. So a returning player from a WHILE ago might find their karma is really funky.
Unlike other games, our MOTD is a file on the server that you can not change IG or with our web tools. Thus, it very rarely changes.
That said, see the announcement for web developer. This would be an example of the kind of thing we would like to change, so more Staff could do it.
It's been a couple years since I've logged into ARM. Honestly, the main thing preventing me from getting back into it is that I'm afraid the game might be "smaller" than it used to be, back when I played. I remember averaging 50~70 players, on peak nights, and part of me is concerned the playerbase has only shrunk since I last played.
Another part of me is also nervous to get back into it because of all the sheer amounts of changes and additions. For reference, there were just the normal Warrior, Ranger, Merchant, etc. classes when I played. I don't know anything about all these new class break up's and splits and stuff.
And, lastly, as embarrassingly as it is, I don't remember how to actually get into the game. I remember there used to be a website client one could use to login, and you could use clients and stuff, but I don't remember how to do any of that, anymore.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on October 30, 2022, 05:39:32 AM
It's been a couple years since I've logged into ARM. Honestly, the main thing preventing me from getting back into it is that I'm afraid the game might be "smaller" than it used to be, back when I played. I remember averaging 50~70 players, on peak nights, and part of me is concerned the playerbase has only shrunk since I last played.
Another part of me is also nervous to get back into it because of all the sheer amounts of changes and additions. For reference, there were just the normal Warrior, Ranger, Merchant, etc. classes when I played. I don't know anything about all these new class break up's and splits and stuff.
And, lastly, as embarrassingly as it is, I don't remember how to actually get into the game. I remember there used to be a website client one could use to login, and you could use clients and stuff, but I don't remember how to do any of that, anymore.
Having returned after a multi-year hiatus, I'd be happy to give you my perspective (albeit one that is limited, being just one player's perspective):
I was slightly intimidated by the new class system. Decision paralysis set in for a few minutes as I worked to figure out what the closest thing to my favorite old guild was. Some guilds feel like they have one perfect match (merchant -> artisan), other guilds feel like they are really split apart (ranger -> stalker, adventurer, or raider?). Honestly, I think it's a good system. I remember some guilds feeling like really weak choices compared to others, and most people were rangers and merchants, while very few were pickpockets. It would be interesting to see what the class breakdown has been since the new system came out.
The game is definitely smaller than it used to be. I think that's probably what spurred this thread on. Compared to 10 years ago, the game has lost about 90-100 unique weekly logins on average. Compared to about 5 years ago the game lost about 50 unique weekly logins on average. (That is from checking the weekly updates on the site.) This seems to have translated to a peak of 40-45 players or so, from what I've seen. My playtimes are all over the place, so I've noticed that off-peaks have more players than in the past and peak times have less.
As a side note, it's actually pretty easy to log into the game. You can check this page out for instructions: https://www.armageddon.org/intro/telnet.php You should use a client, like MUSHClient or Mudlet. I personally prefer Mudlet since it plays nicer with my screen reader, but it's worth trying both out.
---
It's great to see staff addressing the issue of stagnation directly with a plethora of new additions to the game: Mul Outpost, sorcerers, and karma changes to name a few. I think what has been under-addressed so far will really help more in the long term: adjusting how staff communicate with players to make it more tactful across the board, making the safety related rules more clear, making the game and the staff more respectful of the player's time. As nice as new additions to the game are, they do a lot of "pulling" - that is, they attract players who are specifically interested in those things into putting in a character app and seeing what's going on. But what will "keep" those new and returning players around long-term, well after they are done trying out the new features, is an effort to address some of the things that become bigger issues as time goes on. So I'm curious to hear how discussions go staff-side on some of those items.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on October 30, 2022, 05:39:32 AM
Another part of me is also nervous to get back into it because of all the sheer amounts of changes and additions. For reference, there were just the normal Warrior, Ranger, Merchant, etc. classes when I played. I don't know anything about all these new class break up's and splits and stuff.
This would likely help leaps and bounds with the new guilds and sub guilds :) Shows all of the branching trees too! And you can build up what sort of guild/sub you would like by selecting your desired skills and it will show you which guilds and subs mixtures match it :)
https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/
When we have only text to communicate (and we're outside of the game where we so colourfully emote in order to express the intent and emotion behind out words) it honestly helps to always assume the best. When we read something written by someone else, and more so in difficult/awkward situations, it's very easy to project our expectations of their tone onto their words and often this ends up being the more negative of potential 'tones' and often it ends up being very wrong, but the damage is already done. I can't begin to imagine how many player/staff, staff/staff and player/player communications have absolutely gone to shit over folks simply assuming the worst from each other when they lack facial expression and tone of voice.
If I read something and my initial impression is that they are being rude/snarky.. I like to read it again but try hard to read it with a nice tone, or an imploring tone, or disappointed tone or a respectful and kind tone and see if it still works with the words. If it does, then I assume that was the tone it was written in, rather than the ruder option. It's really.. helpful.
Obviously sometimes people are just super duper rude and it's really blatant. Then it doesn't apply. :P
Quote from: Usiku on October 30, 2022, 05:34:39 PM
When we have only text to communicate (and we're outside of the game where we so colourfully emote in order to express the intent and emotion behind out words) it honestly helps to always assume the best. When we read something written by someone else, and more so in difficult/awkward situations, it's very easy to project our expectations of their tone onto their words and often this ends up being the more negative of potential 'tones' and often it ends up being very wrong, but the damage is already done. I can't begin to imagine how many player/staff, staff/staff and player/player communications have absolutely gone to shit over folks simply assuming the worst from each other when they lack facial expression and tone of voice.
If I read something and my initial impression is that they are being rude/snarky.. I like to read it again but try hard to read it with a nice tone, or an imploring tone, or disappointed tone or a respectful and kind tone and see if it still works with the words. If it does, then I assume that was the tone it was written in, rather than the ruder option. It's really.. helpful.
Obviously sometimes people are just super duper rude and it's really blatant. Then it doesn't apply. :P
Agreed! This is great advice. Not just for the vast majority of interactions between staff and players but with conversations over text in a more general sense, like in a professional setting. I do think that the more blatant examples of rudeness make up a minority of exchanges. The tricky part with all of this is that: it takes consistent polite and tactful conversation to maintain a good relationship, but only one rude comment to break it down entirely. That makes it all the more important for everyone to be unfailingly tactful, and to apologize and look for ways to fix communications in the rare instances where that doesn't happen.
I feel bad that players of old, like me ,have turned away for reasons, that are many or myriad. I've seen the game change. I've seen a vast number of Staff come and go. Maybe I just don't get affected. Because, I don't. I like and dislike, I love and hate, but I'm still here. I don't know why, but I am. Been in and out myself, but not because of staff, but my own life. I'm glad to be in now. I hope to interact with any and all who are still passionate about this world we have all helped build. Some need or expect more. That's fine. I'm content with it all.
Quote from: Shabago on October 28, 2022, 10:49:41 AM
Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.
I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.
Quote from: Master Color on November 01, 2022, 08:39:28 AM
Quote from: Shabago on October 28, 2022, 10:49:41 AM
Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.
I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.
I think closure is worth more to most people than what is implied by Shabago's quoted post, especially when people are deeply invested in something. Armageddon may be just a game, but it is a game that commands a deeper investment from people than most games of its kind. It stands to reason that people would be reluctant to play a game that pained them, even if the incident happened long ago. The staff team may have been different back then, and the individual staff members most responsible for pain inflicted on players may be long gone and unable to apologize for their actions. But I think what matters to people considering returning to the game is that the current staff aren't repeating the mistakes of old staff members. I think this also matters for people not considering returning to the game but who care about the well-being of the game and its players. The wide range in tone of responses from staff both here and on Discord makes it hard to tell how staff feel about the gap in quality of communication.
I gave up after that post too Bard. As someone who is also exhausted by tone, this turned into being about as productive for me as getting a leader report reply with a bright red keep it up!
I'll pass. Condescending tones, threats, lies (white and egregious), etc. in discord and in request replies. It's not worth it on my end.
Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 01, 2022, 09:33:24 AM
Quote from: Master Color on November 01, 2022, 08:39:28 AM
Quote from: Shabago on October 28, 2022, 10:49:41 AM
Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.
I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.
I think closure is worth more to most people than what is implied by Shabago's quoted post, especially when people are deeply invested in something. Armageddon may be just a game, but it is a game that commands a deeper investment from people than most games of its kind. It stands to reason that people would be reluctant to play a game that pained them, even if the incident happened long ago. The staff team may have been different back then, and the individual staff members most responsible for pain inflicted on players may be long gone and unable to apologize for their actions. But I think what matters to people considering returning to the game is that the current staff aren't repeating the mistakes of old staff members. I think this also matters for people not considering returning to the game but who care about the well-being of the game and its players. The wide range in tone of responses from staff both here and on Discord makes it hard to tell how staff feel about the gap in quality of communication.
Just to be clear. This was as recently as two years ago and with current staff.
I'm not on staff, but the two of you have my sympathy. In a community where help, support, and care can be tough to come by, you'll have mine. I don't want anyone to feel beaten down and disgusted like that at all.
Quote from: Master Color on November 01, 2022, 09:43:02 AM
Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 01, 2022, 09:33:24 AM
Quote from: Master Color on November 01, 2022, 08:39:28 AM
Quote from: Shabago on October 28, 2022, 10:49:41 AM
Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.
I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.
I think closure is worth more to most people than what is implied by Shabago's quoted post, especially when people are deeply invested in something. Armageddon may be just a game, but it is a game that commands a deeper investment from people than most games of its kind. It stands to reason that people would be reluctant to play a game that pained them, even if the incident happened long ago. The staff team may have been different back then, and the individual staff members most responsible for pain inflicted on players may be long gone and unable to apologize for their actions. But I think what matters to people considering returning to the game is that the current staff aren't repeating the mistakes of old staff members. I think this also matters for people not considering returning to the game but who care about the well-being of the game and its players. The wide range in tone of responses from staff both here and on Discord makes it hard to tell how staff feel about the gap in quality of communication.
Just to be clear. This was as recently as two years ago and with current staff.
I see. I'm sorry, I focused more on the "5, 10, 15 years ago" part of the reply you quoted and didn't really think to assume otherwise. In that case, I sincerely hope you get any explanation or conclusion you might be seeking.
Quote from: Master Color on November 01, 2022, 08:39:28 AM
I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.
If you like, you could put in a request to talk about that. I for one honestly have no idea what incident you're talking about.
In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa. Once it's worked out, we'll publish it. Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.
What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables. That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be. But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down. This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring). When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.
Quote from: Halaster on November 02, 2022, 05:57:59 PM
In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa. Once it's worked out, we'll publish it. Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.
What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables. That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be. But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down. This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring). When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.
Is that an extension of this:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57424.0.html
Quote from: mansa on November 02, 2022, 07:28:14 PM
Quote from: Halaster on November 02, 2022, 05:57:59 PM
In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa. Once it's worked out, we'll publish it. Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.
What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables. That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be. But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down. This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring). When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.
Is that an extension of this:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57424.0.html
No, it's going to be more of a communications document.
I came late to the party and know some of these things have already been mentioned but I just want to emphisis some points that have prevented me from playing for a long while.
Skill Grind: This game keeps ignoring this issue at their own risk.
I might have thought the current skill grind was okay 10 years ago, but I no longer have the luxury of that time. With exception to melee combat there needs to be an option to skip the grind. The difference between a character with novice backstab/sap and max backstab/sap is time. Time that I no longer have the willpower or freedom to commit. Even with a class like miscreants, getting a skill like sneak/hide to max is just a hassle.
Additionally, in a game where you have to invest time to create a character, and make friends, RP you way up the food chain, the skill grind is the least enjoyable of our time spent in this game. This is compounded by the fact that historically both staff and players have sometimes ICly or OOCLy used PK and storage as a form of punishment. Depriving the player of the fun from the RL time they have invested in their character, further making the skill grind no different than salt to these wounds.
No it shouldn't cost me a mundane subclass and starting with just advanced skills is still tedious grinding. Please spare me the skill grind which i've already done it for the 100th time and coming back to play won't feel like such a damn chore.
The decline of indies Balance has never been this game's fort. And sometimes when there have been problems, the solution has been to do a 180 in the opposite direction. Idies used to be strong and popular especially in tuluk. There were a couple reason for this including ranger classes, ability to train to high levels on agile animals, wealth,etc etc.
Yes, these things needed to get looked at, but the game went too far in the other direction. For example, making clans one of the few ways to effective train nelee combat skills. At the same times most of the problem with clans remained the same, particularly the stale mate between clans and inability for character to make big changes to the status quo.
I know clans work for most people, but I personally find them very boring and feel joining them limit my ability to enjoy this game. I really wish the game/staff would stop trying to force me into these boring little groups by making the indie concepts I enjoy less viable to play. At the very least, give clans more to do so the sponsored roles aren't so bored they have nothing better to do than to dogpile my indie for any lame ass reason. Overall the decline of indies has been a source of lost conflict within the game.
Desert storms, classes, and subclasses I was waiting for some changes on these things. This is not really a deal breaker for me not playing like the above. That said, desert storms severities especially between civilized hubs really represents ArmageddonMud's outdated way of thinking in regard to 'time invested vs fun'. I really want to see this be change to something that promotes more interaction rather than prevents. With classes/subclasses, I am eager to see change just hoping things don't once again go from one extreme to the other. However, there have been better theads on the subject.
All that said, I have nothing to say about butthurt between both players and staff. I do personally feel there is always been too much ooc talk, favoritism and outright cheating in this game. I wish the game would continue to take steps to level the playing field for all and further reduce the impact of cheating and favoritism between staff and players.
Quote from: Dresan on November 02, 2022, 10:31:09 PM
Skill Grind: This game keeps ignoring this issue at their own risk.
It is great for people to express their opinions and to form a public opinion. For this very reason, let me state my opinion on the above subject so that it can be taken into consideration: This is one of my red lines. I'd probably stop playing if skilling up is made extremely easy, or in a way that requires PvP interaction, etc.
Quote from: najdorf on November 03, 2022, 04:10:12 AM
...let me state my opinion on the above subject so that it can be taken into consideration: This is one of my red lines. I'd probably stop playing if skilling up is made extremely easy, or in a way that requires PvP interaction, etc.
Just some quick thoughts:
- I am not sure what challenges you face skilling up hide/sneak or even skills like backstab/sap but after a few characters the only challenge I face is personal time
- I am not suggesting that the game does away with skill grind but instead have the option of skipping it completely for some people who no longer find learning ride for the 100th time as hard as you
- Melee combat is excluded from being skipped. This is just due the way the game determines a winner in conflict and the fact that melee combat becomes deadlier than backstab/most spells at a certain point .
- Lastly while skilling up melee combat doesn't fully require pvp interaction, it still doesn't fall too short of this requirement in its current implementation
Sneak/hide comes with the risk of being seen and outed as 'that sneaky guy'. Backstab is even worse, you need to either murder actual humanoids and face either lawless areas or crimecode, or <gasp> go outside. You might have to break the rules of your clan, or risk dying to whatever you run into out there.
Quote from: najdorf on November 03, 2022, 04:10:12 AM
Quote from: Dresan on November 02, 2022, 10:31:09 PM
Skill Grind: This game keeps ignoring this issue at their own risk.
It is great for people to express their opinions and to form a public opinion. For this very reason, let me state my opinion on the above subject so that it can be taken into consideration: This is one of my red lines. I'd probably stop playing if skilling up is made extremely easy, or in a way that requires PvP interaction, etc.
One way to decrease the need for a skill grind without removing it might be to alter the mechanics of the game to give low-tier skills more utility.
Combat already works this way. Characters with a low and mid tier weapons skills can easily hit most opponents anyways, and only have issues in certain situations. Crafting also has made a small inroad towards this by emphasizing that some crafts are easy enough that low skilled people can do them, though I think there's currently a reliability issue with that.
If you tinkered with all the skills to ensure that people with apprentice and journeyman had definitively useful tasks they could accomplish with every skill, the need for skill grinding would dissipate without actually removing it from the game.
Quote from: Halaster on November 02, 2022, 05:57:59 PM
In response to past bad blood between some staff and some players, we are working on a document that will become part of the 'staff contract' that lays out some ground rules for how staff will deal with players, and vice versa. Once it's worked out, we'll publish it. Ultimately it boils down to "don't be a dick", but spelled out a bit more plainly.
As one of the people that has repeatedly brought up the subject in this thread, I look forward to reading it and my friends who used to play Armageddon look forward to reading it as well.
Quote
What we're not going to do is lay out exact criteria and metrics as to what happens if the rules are broken because there are far too many variables. That does not mean there won't be consequences - there will be. But iterating and spelling out every infraction and punishment is more nuanced of a hole than we're willing to go down. This does mean we won't "fire" staff if they're a bit rude to someone (unless it becomes extremely recurring). When an issue arises, we'll have a talk with the staffer (or player) and work more towards resolution between all parties, vs punishment.
I think this is the right approach. Personally, I'm not interested in seeing staff punished for things. I do think a "shape up or ship out" type of outlook is needed though and that seems to be covered under "extremely recurring" circumstances.
Ultimately, I look forward to reading this document once it's done. I will provide more feedback then and I hope other players will as well.
Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html
Quote
10) When dealing with a problem player, especially in terms of any form of repercussions for their actions, handle it in a professional manner. If you are upset about what they've done, see number 6 above.
Is there any way to even begin to identify "a problem player"?
I'm curious how staff defines that as well.
How would you define a problem customer? Anyone in retail/sales here?
Quote from: Riev on November 04, 2022, 11:45:56 AM
Quote
10) When dealing with a problem player, especially in terms of any form of repercussions for their actions, handle it in a professional manner. If you are upset about what they've done, see number 6 above.
Is there any way to even begin to identify "a problem player"?
You could begin to identify them by seeing how many of the Player Guidelines they have violated or refuse to acknowledge in their interactions.
I feel that the question being asked is a way of looking for boundaries, so they can be pushed. Players know when they're out of line.
Keep your feelings to yourself.
The question is there because it identifies only players as a problem, and if thats a label that can be put on me for "being salty one day" I feel like I deserve to know. Especially when a "problem player" could receive less support, account notes added that aren't known about, and future-tainted for new staff that didn't know I was a jerk one time.
So. Its kind of important, not to "push boundaries", but to know where I sit as a player.
Quote from: Riev on November 04, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Keep your feelings to yourself.
The question is there because it identifies only players as a problem, and if thats a label that can be put on me for "being salty one day" I feel like I deserve to know. Especially when a "problem player" could receive less support, account notes added that aren't known about, and future-tainted for new staff that didn't know I was a jerk one time.
So. Its kind of important, not to "push boundaries", but to know where I sit as a player.
If we all kept our feelings to ourselves, I suspect this thread wouldn't be 20 pages long, a goodly portion of it provided by "salty" non-players who have made it very clear they hate the game, hate the staff, hate the players, etc and plan to never be back but are being kind enough to lay their feelings out for the rest of us. Good thing we don't have to keep feelings to ourselves. Your question also didn't ask for clarification of when the label was appropriate, it suggested that such a label wasn't even possible. Pushing boundaries - how "salty" can I be before I face consequences for being an asshole?
Not sure what happened there. I'm sure I'm not being the one who hates the game, players and staff. I just am not a fan of getting a label in my account notes that sits there for 15 years because someone has a bad day, on either side.
Quote from: Fragmented on November 04, 2022, 12:24:58 PM
Quote from: Riev on November 04, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Keep your feelings to yourself.
The question is there because it identifies only players as a problem, and if thats a label that can be put on me for "being salty one day" I feel like I deserve to know. Especially when a "problem player" could receive less support, account notes added that aren't known about, and future-tainted for new staff that didn't know I was a jerk one time.
So. Its kind of important, not to "push boundaries", but to know where I sit as a player.
If we all kept our feelings to ourselves, I suspect this thread wouldn't be 20 pages long, a goodly portion of it provided by "salty" non-players who have made it very clear they hate the game, hate the staff, hate the players, etc and plan to never be back but are being kind enough to lay their feelings out for the rest of us. Good thing we don't have to keep feelings to ourselves. Your question also didn't ask for clarification of when the label was appropriate, it suggested that such a label wasn't even possible. Pushing boundaries - how "salty" can I be before I face consequences for being an asshole?
I asked how you would even begin to identify a problem player. In no way was I suggesting it can't be done. Stop looking for a fight.
I also do not give a slight care about your feelings on "players that are planning to never come back by laying out their feelings". This is what the purpose of the thread was, and what was asked for. If you don't like it, thats not anyone else's problem but yours. Stop complaining about people doing what they were asked, and asking questions.
Like George, I do wonder about having "bad" account notes that follow me for 15 years. If I did things back then, am I still a "problem player"? If I have a note that says "No more sponsored roles, ever" is that a fair note?
I think we should know what makes you a "problem player".
I see no mention of problem staff. Is it possible that there is no such thing? Especially with where the game stands right now, can the game even afford to remove "problem" staff? Probably not, so even if a staff member causes problem it's likely they aren't going anywhere, the game can't afford to lose them?
You're missing the message and the intent.
"When dealing with a problem player, especially in terms of any form of repercussions for their actions, handle it in a professional manner. If you are upset about what they've done, see number 6 above."
We're not laying out a criteria for what is or isn't a problem player, and in fact we don't have some kind of official label for that. The point here is that staff are expected to deal with them respectfully and professionally, and if they get upset, get someone else to step in. This is meant to address a situation where someone has done something to get "in trouble" and direct staff not to let their judgement get clouded by emotion.
Suggestion: Replace "Problem Player" with something better. Problem Situation, Corrective Action, etc.
Problem Player sounds like the player is already being blamed for whatever is happening.
It seems just like a thing with wording than a policy issue, it obviously means that even if someone has problems personally with someone (considers someone a problem), it's saying person B should still act in a professional way (e.g. treat everyone equally :)
Even though staff said it's not an official label it might be worth looking at that, since if one person can misunderstand the meaning then it might not be clear to people in the future - for example that thread was created 6 years ago by people that might not be around anymore to give clarification to players or new staff reading it, or be able to read the posts made here that clarify it which will probably be piled under and hard to find later :)
elephantjournal.com/2015/06/in-regards-to-toxic-people (https://web.archive.org/web/20210803171525/https://www.elephantjournal.com/2015/06/in-regards-to-toxic-people/)
(Like a lot of websites - Armageddon's main page even has Google and Amazon - this contains web beacons (https://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Marketing/web_bug.html) from Google, Paypal, mxpnl (https://whotracks.me/trackers/mixpanel.html), Instagram/Facebook, and Cloudfront (Amazon) (https://whotracks.me/trackers/amazon_cloudfront.html), this is merged with any real life information given to these companies and sold on - The Internet Archive does not have these so is a clean version) QuoteThe topic of toxic people is frequently referenced in articles and books, and I have even attended corporate workshops that address this matter.
..
We can address the behavior, if appropriate, but it is so critical to be aware of our perspectives which will affect our intentions and, therefore, our approach in doing this.
We can choose to distance ourselves physically and/or emotionally from those who hurt others as a result of how hurt they themselves feel, but we have the option to do this with both grace and compassion.
..
We can stop labeling people as toxic.
Toxic behavior is not indicative of a toxic being.
Toxic behavior is only indicative of a person who needs love. This can result as a lack of self-love or lack of love from others or likely a combination of both.
At the same time, I wouldn't totally agree with that because it's also important not to invalidate that some people have had experiences with people doing extremely evil things, or persistently nasty, it's easy for people who haven't had much experience of stuff like this to judge, but that in itself is another thing for everyone to try consider about other people :)
Quote from: Shabago on November 04, 2022, 10:54:51 AM
Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html
For the sake of clarification:
Is this the document Halaster referenced earlier that is becoming part of the staff contract? Or is this separate?
I ask because it does seem to apply to communication beyond forum rules, like requests. I assume it applies to other forms of communication as well, like Discord?
Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 04, 2022, 01:38:52 PM
Quote from: Shabago on November 04, 2022, 10:54:51 AM
Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html
For the sake of clarification:
Is this the document Halaster referenced earlier that is becoming part of the staff contract? Or is this separate?
I ask because it does seem to apply to communication beyond forum rules, like requests. I assume it applies to other forms of communication as well, like Discord?
Yes this is what I was referencing.
And yes, it applies to all communication forms.
Updated the wording to:
"When dealing with an issue with a player,"
Quote from: Halaster on November 04, 2022, 01:46:59 PM
Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 04, 2022, 01:38:52 PM
Quote from: Shabago on November 04, 2022, 10:54:51 AM
Forum rules have been updated regarding communication:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html
For the sake of clarification:
Is this the document Halaster referenced earlier that is becoming part of the staff contract? Or is this separate?
I ask because it does seem to apply to communication beyond forum rules, like requests. I assume it applies to other forms of communication as well, like Discord?
Yes this is what I was referencing.
And yes, it applies to all communication forms.
Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. (The change to the wording is also appreciated.)
Comments on guidelines for staff dealing with players:
#4: Very much welcomed. Given that all three examples of less-than-ideal staff communication I've used earlier in this thread all generally fall into the umbrella of assuming the worst about a player or group of players, I think having this outlined is a good idea.
#5: Given that me and one of my friends previously left the game over a one-word response of "Noted" to a complaint, this is much appreciated.
#6: I would really have liked there to be a requirement for having multiple staff work on certain requests, e.g. player and staff complaints where a single resolver's bias or mood can be an issue with a clean resolution.
Comments on guidelines for players dealing with staff:
#4: When reading something with a respectful, polite tone, if the words don't feel like they match the assumed tone, then that's going to be where the friction comes from.
No comment on any of the other points (they all look good).
Finally, for what it's worth, I've linked this to my former-player friends and 2/3 are going to get back into the game before Thanksgiving, probably on a weekend where they have some time to sit down and review things. One more doesn't have time to play until January, but would like to give the game another try then. In case you were wondering what kind of effect staff's efforts have on former players, there you go!
Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 04, 2022, 02:20:02 PM
Finally, for what it's worth, I've linked this to my former-player friends and 2/3 are going to get back into the game before Thanksgiving, probably on a weekend where they have some time to sit down and review things. One more doesn't have time to play until January, but would like to give the game another try then. In case you were wondering what kind of effect staff's efforts have on former players, there you go!
Thanks for that. A playground can be totally awesome, but if nobody knows, nobody shows up.
Kudos to Staff for systemizing. This is the first step towards consistency, and a document that can be referenced by both players and Staff when something outside of baseline occurs in communication.
This reduces discretionary thinking (I enjoy working with X staff member and not Y Staff member). If Staff become more homogenous (though not completely without personality) it helps players know what to expect when they are going to interact with them. Though Staff I think will
Ultimately not receive the same from the player base, it is excellent to lay out guidelines of how to best approach Staff.
Now the hard part: sticking to it. But I have high hopes for both players and staff.
Quote from: kahuna on November 04, 2022, 12:42:16 PM
I see no mention of problem staff. Is it possible that there is no such thing? Especially with where the game stands right now, can the game even afford to remove "problem" staff? Probably not, so even if a staff member causes problem it's likely they aren't going anywhere, the game can't afford to lose them?
Not to mention I seem to have become a "problem player" when I began standing up for myself and pushing back rather than rolling over and shrugging things off (because there was no way I was going to be listened to/compromised with -- that's how it felt at least). Yes, I should have taken a deep breath on some occasions and sat on my reply for a day or two, but that doesn't invalidate my experience.
This document is a good start but the wording in some places was really telling. I hope staff does some further self-reflection. If there are issues, maybe it's not the player's fault, but a circumstance in the game that is thorny, and it's just easier to blame it on the player being annoying than solve it? Maybe it's the way a staff member continually handles issues/players rather than it being the player?
I'm glad to see an attempt at addressing staff/player communication and I hope it continues to evolve to address full accountability on
both sides.
edit to add: this also doesn't address passive-aggressiveness or blame-shifting. Is that too subjective for an official document? Maybe it is, but it's a factor. If people are skirting the line and being ostensibly polite but still dodging accountability, that's just as much an issue as being a straightforward jerk to somebody. What I'm looking for, at least, is accountability, as well as two-way street respect and tact.
In other words: trustworthiness. Without trustworthiness, setting rules about being polite is a start but it's only a band-aid.
I don't often side with Staff but some of you are sounding like you won't be happy with anything else than a magna carta-like document in magnitude. They gave you a lot of what you were asking for in this thread - it's now up to you to decide if you trust them to follow it or not.
The root issue remains unaddressed. Putting a polite face on in public doesn't tackle how players are viewed, treated, and also spoken of in private. Yes, I think it's pretty clear that after having my trust broken multiple times by the same staff who kept asking me to rise above and trust only to turn around and do the same things, I'm done, but that doesn't mean I don't want better for those who aren't.
That said, message received. Clearly I am not the target audience.
Quote from: Delirium on November 04, 2022, 05:23:27 PM
The root issue remains unaddressed. Putting a polite face on in public doesn't tackle how players are viewed, treated, and also spoken of in private. Yes, I think it's pretty clear that after having my trust broken multiple times by the same staff who kept asking me to rise above and trust only to turn around and do the same things, I'm done, but that doesn't mean I don't want better for those who aren't.
That said, message received. Clearly I am not the target audience.
This staff contract is, in my reading, meant for both players and staff to be respectful to one another, regardless of past occurrances, and personal opinion on the player or staff side. I do not know what else exactly you'd want to, except for someone to personally say sorry to you.
There's been no need for me to chime in and I wasn't going to chime in but .... fuck it .. here goes.
The sentiment is fine. The document says players will be polite and that staff will be polite.
Sounds great on paper.
Except the same problem will still exist:
Who decides what is polite? Staff.
Who is your arbitration if a dispute occurs? Staff.
Who decides when and how it's ultimately settled? Staff.
Who runs Bartertown? Staff.
The only option a player has is to vote with your feet ... and from looking at game statistics, a shitload of people seem to have done that over the years.
Quote from: zealus on November 04, 2022, 05:30:45 PMI do not know what else exactly you'd want
Quote from: DeliriumI'm glad to see an attempt at addressing staff/player communication and I hope it continues to evolve to address full accountability on both sides.
I mean, sorry would be nice, but sorry without changed behavior is an empty word.
Hopefully this is the start of changed behavior.
I can recognize that I'm far too burnt to trust what may well be good intentions, so I'll see myself out.
I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.
Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2022, 06:35:44 PM
I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.
I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of. Especially when the topic is intense. This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what? Years and years? Is there a purpose to this? Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.
Creating an OOC political system sounds like a great idea, right up until you realise you've created an OOC political system...
Discworld MUD has this for revolving disputes, or rather had... Because it was such a spectacular mess of drama it seemed like a lot of people lost trust in it, such positions tend to naturally attract the kind of people who want to use those positions for well... Politics... In the end it was just an abdication of responsibility from the people who should really have been fairly dealing with things (with the ability to properly check logs instead of relying on copypasted or edited stuff) but didn't want to, and opened the way to people who would abuse the position once elected and untouchable.
...Now they mostly fill up their council court cases file with a lottery raffle.
Another example was Alien Isolation, based on Space Station 13, it was actually a pretty fun idea to make it into an intense RP game but also horror at the same time. Seems familiar, right? I got voted into the player council, we could do public votes to remove admins. Which was good, because one was caught abusing admin tools for their player character, BUT... Not many people were volunteering to spend time creating things, running RP, or moderating, because no matter how much they contributed that they could arbitrarily get voted off and all their work seized if not popular enough, like it's a gameshow (so end up with people who are kinda useless at running things but smile a lot and say fake words that sound good while rarely acting on them... But are unlikely to get voted out) - in the end it was really just the people at the top making a system where everyone else dealt with the problems so they didn't have to... And so it diiiiiied a slow death. And then we have Armageddon, where the complaints mostly seem to be players about players and players about staff, but there seem to be very few complaints from people who left staff, and a LOT of content gets made and updates are way ahead of what most MUDs are doing right now. I think for volunteer organisations (where you can't pull a proper internal affairs department out of a hat) the best you do is have people at the top with a spine willing to inspect stuff and make decisions, speak up publicly, and people able and willing to inspect each other and speak up to each other when there's stuff that might ruin the game for everyone in the long run - everyone has the same interest in that, just need to work together on the same side :)
Quote from: Bebop on November 04, 2022, 07:16:40 PM
Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2022, 06:35:44 PM
I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.
I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of. Especially when the topic is intense. This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what? Years and years? Is there a purpose to this? Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.
Are you for real? My comment was super light-hearted. Also it's none of your fucking business if I'm playing or not.
Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2022, 07:36:40 PM
Quote from: Bebop on November 04, 2022, 07:16:40 PM
Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2022, 06:35:44 PM
I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.
I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of. Especially when the topic is intense. This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what? Years and years? Is there a purpose to this? Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.
Are you for real? My comment was super light-hearted. Also it's none of your fucking business if I'm playing or not.
I suspect she quoted the wrong post, Malken. Also, chillllll. Get the canook mojo on.
Quote from: Dar on November 04, 2022, 08:04:56 PM
Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2022, 07:36:40 PM
Quote from: Bebop on November 04, 2022, 07:16:40 PM
Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2022, 06:35:44 PM
I'm Canadian, I should be on the committee that decides what's polite and what isn't.
I don't understand continually egging on, making light of, orbiting and chiding a community that you are very vocal about not being part of. Especially when the topic is intense. This conversation is emotionally loaded for a lot of people who are genuinely trying to improve things and you're just hanging out in the rafters negging at one side or the other without having had an in game experience in like what? Years and years? Is there a purpose to this? Am I wrong or and you're playing? Kind of curious what you get out of it.
Are you for real? My comment was super light-hearted. Also it's none of your fucking business if I'm playing or not.
I suspect she quoted the wrong post, Malken. Also, chillllll. Get the canook mojo on.
Quote from: Malken on October 23, 2022, 09:46:31 PM
us non-playing folks
Quote from: Malken on October 22, 2022, 06:26:53 PM
us who have already left to play the game
Quote from: Malken on October 04, 2022, 09:36:01 PM
I no longer any longer.
Quote from: Malken on October 01, 2022, 10:06:38 PM
there's really nothing that would get me back to play.
Quote from: Malken on June 26, 2022, 06:02:42 PM
My last five or so attempts at playing the game went pretty much like this..
...
I don't have the time/need for this in my life anymore.
I mean...even if she meant to quote that one... it's kind of a fair point, given even the past six months of Malken's posts if you look at them? And his response seems in character with the point she was making about how negative he's being?
I did mean to quote Malken. I just don't get constantly positing that you haven't played in a decade and will never ever play but continuing to tell people active in the community what they should and shouldn't accept from staff or vice versa. I get if you're on the fence about playing but just claiming you don't and will not ever play and then telling everyone how they should react to situations is a bit odd. Let people feel their feelings.
Also the irony of saying how nice you are then jumping down my throat over a simple question....Okay.
Hm. I stand corrected.
But I also consider myself Canadian.
Quote from: Dresan on November 02, 2022, 10:31:09 PM
The decline of indies Balance has never been this game's fort. And sometimes when there have been problems, the solution has been to do a 180 in the opposite direction. Idies used to be strong and popular especially in tuluk. There were a couple reason for this including ranger classes, ability to train to high levels on agile animals, wealth,etc etc.
Not exactly true, there's still some indies in Tuluk. But I can see what you are getting at- partisans and the levies. They are mini-clans that aren't really coded clans where it seems that everyone is one of those clans.
ETA: That totally made no sense, didn't it?
While I'm tentatively happy with the guidelines, I don't blame anyone who needs more than that.
I look at the posted guidelines like a reset button for staff's end of the player-staff relationship. It's primarily up to staff to hold up their end. Non-staff players don't have an equal responsibility because they don't have equal power. That's not to say the players have no responsibility at all. But that, generally speaking, there is a perception that staff-player communications typically break down because of something a staff member says.
I think it's reasonable to want more than just the new guidelines as an assurance that they can trust staff again. Typically, when mending a relationship that fails due to lack of trust, two things need to happen: an admission of fault and a resolve to not repeat the same mistake. With these new guidelines, the resolve is there, but not the admission. Getting the perfect admission is hard because prior staff are no longer around to apologize. Getting a "good enough" admission is as simple as current staff members being honest about what, if anything, they feel they've personally done wrong in the past and what they personally plan to focus on in light of these new guidelines to become better communicators, and ultimately, better staff members. It might be helpful to have that kind of real talk.
There are a few admissions. When Isfriday raised an incident, staff responded to it with admission. The 40hp arrow was also responded to. Even Delirium was apologized to. I think Delirium issues could be explored more, but appears she prefers to slam doors upon leaving again and again instead of finding resolutions.
My point is that if a person would articulate enough to admit to, perhaps it'll happen. Or at least explored. I would love it if this happened. But the person needs to be mentally prepared to move past the injury, instead of picking at the scab and enjoying the pain.
When Is Friday raised an incident, staff responded to it in two ways:
- Brokkr writing about the incident and how staff have taken steps to ensure that specific situation doesn't happen again.
- Shalooonsh writing that he has receipts on Is Friday.
Is Friday admitted that she used to be not great but is a changed person. The only thing I am suggesting is that staff in a similar circumstance do the same thing, irrespective of whether a specific complaint has been brought up here. That would be an apology, an admission of fault, which is all Delirium is asking for in her last post. Since she is asking for that I think it is safe to say she, and others who deserve those apologies, have the mental fortitude to handle it, and I don't think it's appropriate to suggest otherwise.
Quote from: Bebop on November 04, 2022, 08:25:35 PM
I did mean to quote Malken. I just don't get constantly positing that you haven't played in a decade and will never ever play but continuing to tell people active in the community what they should and shouldn't accept from staff or vice versa. I get if you're on the fence about playing but just claiming you don't and will not ever play and then telling everyone how they should react to situations is a bit odd. Let people feel their feelings.
Also the irony of saying how nice you are then jumping down my throat over a simple question....Okay.
I've played as recently as six months or so ago. It wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. A lot of it is probably my own fault. I solo rp'ed a lot.
Did I say that I would never come back to Armageddon? Yes, of course. This is an easy thing to say. I did it, you did it. Many others did it. Many of them come back under a new name and a new VPN. I've always stuck to my account and my GDB name, no matter how bad my "reputation" might be. I'm not the best Armageddon player but I'm also certainly not the worse we've had. I'm in the middle, I think.
Am I part of the community? Yes, wether you like it or not. I've been playing a lot longer than you have and believe it or not, I have many Armageddon friends that I talk to on a daily basis. Are they on the GDB or in the Discord channel? I don't think any of them are on the GDB, so I'm not really part of the GDB community. Some of them are on the Discord channel. Am I on the Discord channel? You'd be surprised. We're probably great buddies there. The GDB tends to bring the worse out of everyone. I'm a pretty nice and decent person outside of it.
I took offense at you saying that I'm trying to be snarky for the sake of it. Was it in my answer to Delirium? I think Delirium is an awesome player and from the little I know of her, also a nice person. I genuily wanted to know what Staff could say to her that would bring her back. Even if they apologized to her, it would still take a lot of time for her to trust them again, which was the main point of my last post.
My mistake was in thinking that they had already apologized to her and she accepted it, but after re-reading this thread, I now realize that Halaster apologized for deleting her post and she accepted that apology. That was my mistake.
Have I answered most of your questions?
Discord is evil (https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord) and brings out the worst in people, not forums, no way. There's been some amazing discussions here, it's a lot more meaningful...
I think moving things away from Discord and more onto the website would be a good idea, to protect people from manipulative people putting peer pressure on them or insinuating IC threats once they find out what characters people play (newbies are not always knowing to be careful or how to) - Not everyone has much resilience against that kind of stuff and it's just setting people up to fail
Quote from: tiny rainbow on November 05, 2022, 12:29:18 PM
Discord is evil (https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord) and brings out the worst in people, not forums, no way. There's been some amazing discussions here, it's a lot more meaningful...
I think moving things away from Discord and more onto the website would be a good idea, to protect people from manipulative people putting peer pressure on them or insinuating IC threats once they find out what characters people play (newbies are not always knowing to be careful or how to) - Not everyone has much resilience against that kind of stuff and it's just setting people up to fail
I went on Discord a couple months ago to ask a question and one of the helpers scolded me for annoying them with an @notification. I honestly haven't felt comfortable returning, or if I do and see that helper on I just leave rather than try to join a conversation. It was an incredibly offputting and unwelcoming experience and I can only imagine how it would feel to a new player.
Quote from: Malken on November 05, 2022, 11:14:56 AM
I genuily wanted to know what Staff could say to her that would bring her back. Even if they apologized to her, it would still take a lot of time for her to trust them again, which was the main point of my last post.
My mistake was in thinking that they had already apologized to her and she accepted it, but after re-reading this thread, I now realize that Halaster apologized for deleting her post and she accepted that apology. That was my mistake
Thank you for that, and for those who paint me as over-emotional, 'slamming doors' for deciding to withdraw rather than escalate, I find that problematic on a general and not merely personal level, but I'm not going to derail there. Maybe examine your assumptions on your own time.
I tried the official channels, they failed me. Then they failed my husband, and at least two others I'm personally aware of. This is it for me. It is healthier to leave and continue to stay gone. I do genuinely hope that this thread helps fix the underlying toxicity, negativity, and lack of accountability that ultimately drove me and others away.
I have no desire to 'pick scabs' and no desire to cause a drama show for the popcorn crew. All I wanted was to bring issues to light so they might be openly addressed and worked on. As per the stated intention of the thread.
Change takes time and consistency. It's work. Hopefully this time it sticks. It's ironic to me that some seem to attribute a sort of maliciousness and unwillingness to confront issues when I'm doing the exact opposite, and without naming names or seeking public embarrassment or any other such vindictive behavior. Meanwhile I've heard from several different people that I'm a popular topic of disparaging and nasty remarks. I guess i hit a nerve.
I am not seeking some kind of drawn out public shitshow as that would be counter to the whole purpose. Is my trust broken? Yes. Will further discussion with staff and apologies bring me back? They'd be appreciated as far as clearing the air, If they were genuine conversations where fault was admitted on both sides and understandings reached.... but I am done with the game and re-opening all those wounds after so many times.. that's probably the definition of insanity or maybe just self-flaggellation... and quite frankly I don't trust that it will turn out better than any of the other times I tried. So no. It wont bring me back. Saying you're turning over a new leaf is great. I've heard it before. I hope it sticks this time. I won't be around to benefit from it but hopefully others will.
I spoke up to make things better for the rest of you. I keep getting drawn into the thread because yes, I do care. But I've said enough. More than enough. Repeating myself is pointless. Dar did accidently hit on one thing I've known its best to do, but not doing.
While I'm not slamming the door, I am closing it.
.
Certain threads would greatly benefit from a 24-hour delay before a post becomes visible, but is still editable. This is one of those threads.
Echoing Delirium's comments above:
I'm closing the door on ArmageddonMUD because of repeated breaches of trust over years. It's not a single incident, although I'd raised this issue perhaps a dozen times over the past decade. Only now when it was dragged out into public light has it been addressed. 9 years to address the rape plot for my PC? Sounds absurd.
It was a pattern that I wasn't able to see until I actually took a step back from the situation - Triggered by another staff overstep where their NPC executed my PC. There's a lot of things that were left unsaid beyond the 1 issue I'd brought up. There are staff who continue to be untrustworthy and perpetuate a toxic/abusive environment. I've got enough issues in my life and I enjoy roleplaying in a healthy environment, these days. Everybody's got their axe to grind or their whipping boy - that won't be me, anymore.
I'd love for the game to get itself to a healthy state. I love a lot of staff/players and have developed great relationships with them over time. Wishing the game well. Too much baggage for me.
We are going to be locking this thread in about 4 days, on Wednesday the 9th.
There have been a lot of personal attacks against each other, and much of what is being said now are the same complaints being repeated. That doesn't mean we're not listening, and haven't done anything (see https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.msg1082970.html#msg1082970). But at this point more of the same isn't getting us anywhere.
If you have anything left to say, now is the time. If you're on the fence about posting, now is the time. If you have friends who were considering, let them know they've got a few days and that's it (for this thread).
edit: got my dates wrong.
Before this thread closes, I want to add in my two cents.
It seems that everyone doesn't take into consideration that these are people behind the screens. People have the ability to change their views, opinions, and personalities. The staff here are trying their best now to not only address these complaints but to make up for them. The current administration team here are taking steps forward to ensure everyone feels heard and seen. I do want to give my condolences to those who have been permanently deterred by the game because of the past harm done unto you — I'm so sorry you guys won't be apart of this community again, I hope you do find a MUD or roleplaying community where you feel at home. <3
I've been gone for quite a while. I don't lurk. I don't follow Armageddon anymore.
Being shown Delirium's post, and Is Friday's post, encouraged me to come back and give my two cents in good faith.
I have no axe to grind. It's been a long time. I left because staff broke my sense of trust in them, over something very silly. I had a character killed by a staff member directly, with limited context, in a way that appeared to be rushed and poorly thought out. It didn't match the OOC messaging from the staff member during the scene, which made it all the more pointed. I don't believe it met staff policy. It felt awful. I admit I'm not the easiest player to work with, and I didn't handle it from my end as well as I could have. I had tried to be polite. I raised a complaint, which was ultimately dismissed neutrally. I probably threatened to quit because I was frustrated. After a few days, I tried to move on. I had a special app waiting in the wings, already approved - I calmed myself down, and I thought I'd go that route. Another staff member had closed off that spec app with a note that I won't need it anymore.
This was one of those situations where I feel if cooler heads had prevailed, if everybody had a chat and had a resolution, some reasoning, it'd have been fine. Instead, it appeared to me that wagons were circled and a bad decision made in the moment was left to fester. No apology, no good explanation, nothing. Two players quit over this - a newbie, and me.
In the years I played, I saw some good staff decisions and communication, and some poor staff decisions and communication. What Armageddon has always lacked, in my opinion, is a culture of friendly, open dialogue. Staff try to present themselves at arm's length from the playerbase, but they're not. Everybody knows it. Some players are toxic, some staff are toxic. Emotions and tempers can run high. In my opinion, all of this passion should be focused on the game and collaborative storytelling. Credibility, trust and honesty - not paranoia and secrecy. It's staff's responsibility to set that bar, and that of the players to rise to it. When players and staff duke it out over bullshit and dream up in the worst in each other, everybody loses.
If things loosened up, lightened up, would I come back? Probably. Doubly so if there were attempts to right old wrongs. I'd welcome an apology, or a chance to come back on mutually respectful terms. I'd love to help bring life and fun back to Arm.
Quote from: Halaster on November 05, 2022, 09:06:33 PM
We are going to be locking this thread in about 4 days, on Wednesday the 9th.
There have been a lot of personal attacks against each other, and much of what is being said now are the same complaints being repeated. That doesn't mean we're not listening, and haven't done anything (see https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.msg1082970.html#msg1082970). But at this point more of the same isn't getting us anywhere.
If you have anything left to say, now is the time. If you're on the fence about posting, now is the time. If you have friends who were considering, let them know they've got a few days and that's it (for this thread).
edit: got my dates wrong.
Maybe there's a reason that complaints and grievances repeat themselves? Maybe that makes those that are repeated by several people those that should be investigated some?
I don't think just putting up rules cuts it.
Start taking heads.
"Bro, complaints are mounting up. One more and you're out."
And then pull trough with it.
Quote from: mirk_o_loio on November 06, 2022, 06:12:38 AM
I don't think just putting up rules cuts it.
Start taking heads.
"Bro, complaints are mounting up. One more and you're out."
And then pull trough with it.
That doesn't work when there are obvious ooc cliques operating oocly at the moment to affect the game icly.
I'm considering leaving the game due to the level of it I have seen recently.
Your method would just give these cliques another ooc method.
Kill the cliques, then.
Or, at least, have those cliques provide credible, traceable proof of their grievances and issues.
Yeaaaah this is it really. Some of the complaints seem to be from people who feel 'betrayed' because these are people who have openly spoke of fostering inappropriate relationships with players and staff, which reduces sympathy I would otherwise have by a lot, because a lot of people don't engage in all the stuff they do. Delirium boasted about STILL being consistently told things they shouldn't be being told if they believed in equal treatment and fairness for everyone, by "several different people". Without knowing anything of Delirium's characters or decades-long interpersonal relationships with Armageddon players and staff, I get red flags from reading that, I've seen these kind of situations, because they're human situations that inevitably crop up in anything that people are involved in, not unique to Armageddon.
I kind of feel like the game is moving in a better direction away from those older times and that this thread is a reminder that everyone should be on better behavior, because both staff AND players are on notice now that eyes are watching for abuse or misbehavior.
True, you can remove the potential for any problems entirely by completely removing all the interesting plots and secrecy, and everything that distinguishes Armageddon from the more old-style RPs where everything is pre-organized between players and there's not much chance of anything exciting happening. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should, that's really just destroying the game a lot of people enjoy, when there's nothing else that has stood true to these values and made such a unique experience that feels special to a lot of people.
Quote from: Inks on November 06, 2022, 06:22:33 AM
Quote from: mirk_o_loio on November 06, 2022, 06:12:38 AM
I don't think just putting up rules cuts it.
Start taking heads.
"Bro, complaints are mounting up. One more and you're out."
And then pull trough with it.
That doesn't work when there are obvious ooc cliques operating oocly at the moment to affect the game icly.
I'm considering leaving the game due to the level of it I have seen recently.
Your method would just give these cliques another ooc method.
What's stopping you reporting these people (if it's not just trying to make the game look bad)? Maybe it would be helpful if Armageddon had something like this to deal with reports against players OR staff(!) cheating?
https://www.oig.dhs.gov/whistleblower-protection
QuoteWhat is whistleblower retaliation?
The Whistleblower Protection Act (WPA) was established to ensure that employees who engage in protected disclosure are free from fear of reprisal for their disclosures. Whistleblower retaliation is the taking, failing to take, or threatening to take a personnel action because of an employee's whistleblowing.
And yeah, one of the beautiful things about Armageddon is you always have somewhere to play, when people are cheating, don't work with them, don't play on their side, play outside their city in a role where you'll probably end up legitimately killing their OOC friends for IC reasons? In some games you'd just have to suck it and move onto another game because of permanent leader characters, but Armageddon has something for everyone.
Abaya is right, we don't necessarily know about something if we're not told. If you know of some OOC clique who are 'cheating', put in a player complaint and we can attempt to look into it. That kind of thing is difficult to prove and police, but we -always- look into those kinds of complaints.
Quote from: Halaster on November 06, 2022, 10:32:16 AM
Abaya is right, we don't necessarily know about something if we're not told. If you know of some OOC clique who are 'cheating', put in a player complaint and we can attempt to look into it. That kind of thing is difficult to prove and police, but we -always- look into those kinds of complaints.
Yeah. There's a Player/Staff complaint option on the request tool for a reason. Should be utilized more often because it seems that it hasn't been.
Quote from: Case on November 06, 2022, 03:06:47 AM
I've been gone for quite a while. I don't lurk. I don't follow Armageddon anymore.
Being shown Delirium's post, and Is Friday's post, encouraged me to come back and give my two cents in good faith.
I have no axe to grind. It's been a long time. I left because staff broke my sense of trust in them, over something very silly. I had a character killed by a staff member directly, with limited context, in a way that appeared to be rushed and poorly thought out. It didn't match the OOC messaging from the staff member during the scene, which made it all the more pointed. I don't believe it met staff policy. It felt awful. I admit I'm not the easiest player to work with, and I didn't handle it from my end as well as I could have. I had tried to be polite. I raised a complaint, which was ultimately dismissed neutrally. I probably threatened to quit because I was frustrated. After a few days, I tried to move on. I had a special app waiting in the wings, already approved - I calmed myself down, and I thought I'd go that route. Another staff member had closed off that spec app with a note that I won't need it anymore.
This was one of those situations where I feel if cooler heads had prevailed, if everybody had a chat and had a resolution, some reasoning, it'd have been fine. Instead, it appeared to me that wagons were circled and a bad decision made in the moment was left to fester. No apology, no good explanation, nothing. Two players quit over this - a newbie, and me.
In the years I played, I saw some good staff decisions and communication, and some poor staff decisions and communication. What Armageddon has always lacked, in my opinion, is a culture of friendly, open dialogue. Staff try to present themselves at arm's length from the playerbase, but they're not. Everybody knows it. Some players are toxic, some staff are toxic. Emotions and tempers can run high. In my opinion, all of this passion should be focused on the game and collaborative storytelling. Credibility, trust and honesty - not paranoia and secrecy. It's staff's responsibility to set that bar, and that of the players to rise to it. When players and staff duke it out over bullshit and dream up in the worst in each other, everybody loses.
If things loosened up, lightened up, would I come back? Probably. Doubly so if there were attempts to right old wrongs. I'd welcome an apology, or a chance to come back on mutually respectful terms. I'd love to help bring life and fun back to Arm.
To preface this, while I was on Staff at this time, I was in no way involved. I vaguely remember this happening, as I think I was online when all the Staff chatter about how to deal with the IC situation was happening.
If this were to happen today, I think the outcome would be different. That said, this seems to be a case of differing expectations, insomuch as I can infer through the documented notes around it.
- There was some disagreement about whether your character was a maverick, in a Sponsored Role. A disagreement wide enough that Staff on the one side did not think the character was abiding by Sponsored Role rules, and obviously on your side you thought you were. I can't at this point say anyone was "right", just that there were differing viewpoints.
- You mentioned your IC actions were meant to keep another player from storing. Staff didn't view this as ok, changing IC actions because of OOC information. Your intentions seem to have been good here, but that didn't mean it wasn't breaking the rules.
- This all led to your character doing some IC actions. Looking back I think you were interpreting that IC consequences should take into account certain OOC things (keeping other player from storing, certain stuff around the leader PC). Staff did not think that those OOC factors should be taken into account. Punishment was harsh, like they believed punishment would be harsh in a military organization. I do not have visibility into what actually occurred, as admittedly there are different accounts on whether your character was complying between yourself and Staff. Again, could be different interpretations of actions taken, I can't tell.
- The death seems to be within the rules. We will animate for certain leader PCs if they are requesting some help with punishments. A Producer was involved in the IC actions, and a second Producer involved in responding to you (as the first recused themselves from the answer). Again, impossible to tell for sure from here, but based on what I can tell it was within the rules.
- I assume the Spec App was closed because there was an ultimatum given. Saying that X has to happen or you are going to Y has not proven the best communication strategy in dealing with Staff. I can understand the desire to put forth what is acceptable to you, but we have other factors (fairness, consistency, balancing other player concerns, etc) that typically play into resolutions such that they aren't always going to end up as something acceptable to the player. Our decision making process will not be held hostage to making a player happy, although especially now vs when this happened, we do try for a positive outcome.
None of this is to say this wasn't a shitty experience for you. Reading through I am sure it was, both in terms of IC game actions and the response you received from Staff. This is the type of situation that we are hopeful will really benefit from the communication rules we are putting in place. Sitting here now I can't say that you or the Staff involved were right or wrong. Both sides seem to have taken actions in good faith, but they weighted the various points of the interaction differently. There are going to be situations like this, where the two sides are not going to come to an agreement over what occurred or how the various elements should be weighted. Our level of communication has to be such that we can, as players and Staff, cope with these kinds of situations without creating bad feelings or need of apologies. Not every decision a player disagrees with is going to require an apology.
That said, the communication in this case was not the best. It wasn't even good. You do have my apologies for how things were communicated to you, as they certainly did not rise up to the level they need to be at, where we can still disagree about decisions but still walk away from them without ill will.
I see a lot of rationalizing fucked up actions as "within the rules". A lot of acknowledging that it's fucked up perhaps, but again, not against the rules. I mean if the rules are allowing lot's of "fucked up" actions that end up creating an environment where you're having to reach out and find out just why it is people aren't playing. Only to rationalize the actions that made people upset enough to want to leave, seems like a mechanism that only serves to defeat the initial intent of this thread. Maybe some discourse on determining if adjusting some of the "rules" may also effect player interaction and retention would be more constructive.
You seem to be mistaking that within any rule set Staff have a range of actions they can take and players are going to have a range of reactions to those actions taken, from positive to negative, with the validity of the rule set itself. The important thing is to focus on the communication so that we can all be trying to do the best we can, have the best foot forwards. We need to be able to disagree cordially and not walk away with ill will on either side.
I don't believe the players started the thread with the intent of forcing staff to "change their ways". It seemed, at least initially, to be an attempt to address some serious issues, in an attempt to get the game where it seems everyone would like it to be. If whatever lens one sees life through, staff and players alike, allows you to look through the entirety of this thread and say "I definitely don't need to change at all" then that's absolutely great. Or delusional.
Quote from: Shabago on October 01, 2022, 11:43:02 AM
Opening a discussion here, for players to weigh in on, on why they aren't playing. Obviously, RL trumps everything and the entire team always tells people to focus on that before playing. The hurricane, the war, school time of year, continued transition for some from work at home to the office again, and so on. However, there will always be other issues at play that keep you all from logging in, and I would be rather remiss to not open this sort of discussion to hear what those are.
A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?
List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.
Quote from: GreenTransient on November 06, 2022, 06:01:02 PM
I don't believe the players started the thread with the intent of forcing staff to "change their ways". It seemed, at least initially, to be an attempt to address some serious issues, in an attempt to get the game where it seems everyone would like it to be. If whatever lens one sees life through, staff and players alike, allows you to look through the entirety of this thread and say "I definitely don't need to change at all" then that's absolutely great. Or delusional.
Players didn't start the thread though, so you obviously didn't read "the entirety of this thread" where people said a few times that changes are being made, and the rules have also been edited, before calling people delusional?
Killing off characters should probably be something handled in a request first though, it would reduce the chance of bad IC reasoning tainting the RP and making scenes that leave people feeling hard done by, probably. One example I can remember is when a templar was allowed to kill all the NPCs and several PCs in a guarded area without any resistance, despite there only being a couple of placeholder NPCs to represent VNPCs, and then waiting to kill defenceless PCs one-by-one when they logged on. But I do see attempts being made to try fix this kind of thing in better layout being made for some areas, and a specific nod to this kind of situation in the new rolecall where a time is arranged for players to have a chance (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58549.msg1082438.html#msg1082438) to respond, so that's another example where it seems like mistakes are genuinely being learned from.
That was exactly my point. The thread wasn't intended to be players coming at staff. It was staff asking players what's up. Some seem compelled to defend many contentious points that have been brought up in the thread without furthering the conversation. Effectively saying "Yes I see this situation that you found bad enough to justify leaving, and it all checks out, I'm sorry." Your pain is within the design parameters. At this point, why bother with the thread if you're going to be using it as a means to defend past behavior instead of using it as a tool to analyze how to move forward and improve.
Like determining that a lot of this could all be fixed with communication. Where the burden of responsibility should be on ensuring there is an environment where communication is an option. Instead of assumptions and reactions in a vacuum. Communication seems like a far more significant issues than how long karma seems to take to tick. Quality, frequency, and the medium of communication could probably use some streamlining. Perhaps talking about some options to allow players to put in a request for closure. From a lot of these stories it seems as though a little bare bones talking could have done wonders.
So, staff don't have the right to tell their side of the story? To every story there's three sides. The truth, person A's and person B's. They're not justifying it they're explaining what actually went down on their own side.
Refer back to the same reasons they don't respond to the same type of posts outside of the community. There is a forum to do so, I'm sure. One that doesn't sideline the intent of this thread.
Why would they do it outside of the community? Most of those "review" posts on Reddit or any other place is just to take a monumental dump on the game. Yes, there are some that are genuine reviews giving actual constructive criticism. They do it here because it matters. Nobody gives a shit about their story outside of the community because what the hell are they gonna do about it? If there's someone outside of the game community who swears they'll never return then what's the point?
Quote from: geminferno on November 06, 2022, 08:35:25 PM
Why would they do it outside of the community? Most of those "review" posts on Reddit or any other place is just to take a monumental dump on the game. Yes, there are some that are genuine reviews giving actual constructive criticism. They do it here because it matters. Nobody gives a shit about their story outside of the community because what the hell are they gonna do about it? If there's someone outside of the game community who swears they'll never return then what's the point?
My gut feeling is that you probably should respond to those people for a variety of reasons but even a quick google search proves that gut feeling.
I'll direct you to people who are way smarter than me here: https://hbr.org/2018/02/study-replying-to-customer-reviews-results-in-better-ratings
You can read the study if you want, basically it's saying why you should respond to people outside of your own inner circle or "community" as you call it. It is crucial to respond to negative criticism promptly.
Just wanted to point this out before the thread was locked, negative reviews remain in perpetuity on the internet. Not responding to them is about the worst decision you could make.
QuoteHowever, we could not yet rule out one final scenario that would have produced the same patterns in the data, even if management responses had no effect on ratings: What if hotels made improvements specifically tailored to the preferences of TripAdvisor users at the time they started responding to TripAdvisor reviews? In that case, we would see TripAdvisor ratings improve relative to Expedia ratings, even if management responses had no effect.
In the article you linked it said this in one of the paragraphs. This is currently what the staff are doing.
Listening to current complaints and past troubles. They're trying to fix the mistakes of the former staff members.
QuoteOverall, these analyses suggested that improved ratings can be directly linked to management responses. And, perhaps surprisingly, we also found that when managers respond to positive reviews, it has the same benefits as when they respond to negative reviews
So, in a way not responding to the negative ones and responding to the positive ones would give a better result. Nobody wants to engage with someone who is—rightfully—angry and hurt about something that A.) They weren't apart of or B.) Can do nothing but apologize and promise to do better? In reality no one who is actually just there to spread negativity because they're angry want to hear an apology because that's not what they're posting it for. They're posting it so other people don't play the game and have their rage stoked by other people agreeing how shitty it is.
I have actually
seen someone from staff respond to one and they got absolutely shredded when they tried to apologize.
Quote from: kahuna on November 06, 2022, 08:58:14 PM
Quote from: geminferno on November 06, 2022, 08:35:25 PM
Why would they do it outside of the community? Most of those "review" posts on Reddit or any other place is just to take a monumental dump on the game. Yes, there are some that are genuine reviews giving actual constructive criticism. They do it here because it matters. Nobody gives a shit about their story outside of the community because what the hell are they gonna do about it? If there's someone outside of the game community who swears they'll never return then what's the point?
My gut feeling is that you probably should respond to those people for a variety of reasons but even a quick google search proves that gut feeling.
I'll direct you to people who are way smarter than me here: https://hbr.org/2018/02/study-replying-to-customer-reviews-results-in-better-ratings
You can read the study if you want, basically it's saying why you should respond to people outside of your own inner circle or "community" as you call it. It is crucial to respond to negative criticism promptly.
Just wanted to point this out before the thread was locked, negative reviews remain in perpetuity on the internet. Not responding to them is about the worst decision you could make.
That site uses Tripadvisor as an example but a quick Startpage search has pages about an independent investigation into it that showed it having literally no proof what is posted is true: https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-06/tripadvisor-failing-to-stop-fake-hotel-reviews-which
https://aboutmanchester.co.uk/tripadvisor-fails-to-stop-highest-ranked-hotels-being-boosted-by-fake-reviews-which-finds/
QuoteReviews are not verified and therefore it is not clear whether reviewers have even stayed at a hotel when they rate it.
Travellers do not know whether hotels have been trying to cheat the system. Despite 14 of the hotels flagged having had at least one suspicious review removed in the last year, none of them carried any kind of warning at the time Which? looked. And TripAdvisor's most serious warning – the red badge – remains on hotel sites for just a matter of weeks.
The findings come as the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) is carrying out a programme of work aimed at tackling the increasing problem of fake and misleading reviews.
Just like reddit which has a whole industry grown around it dedicated to fake votes and promotion, trading the services of users with admin accounts to delete posts of competitors, etc - I don't think anyone under 30 takes online voting seriously it's just ridiculously easy to mess with.
Going to add some of my final thoughts:
- The thread being locked for personal attacks is understandable. What I don't get is why these attacks are allowed to stand. Throughout the course of the thread, it seems like attacks against the game's critics have largely been allowed to stand, while attacks against staff or players defending how the game is run get moderated. To be clear, all personal attacks have no place in a healthy discussion. But I did notice this pattern. Even though it was likely an unintentional pattern, it's exactly why rules enforcement around communication should apply equally to everyone involved with the game.
- The above also happens with blaming former staff and players for the game's current challenges. Backbiting is incredibly unhealthy from an ethical and emotional standpoint, and from a practical standpoint it just focuses people's attention on things that were done wrong instead of what to do moving forward. While this behavior didn't happen much in this thread, it seems to happen a decent amount on the Discord, just from what I can see glancing back through the server's history a couple months.
- While it's encouraging to see staff try to put their best foot forward with all communication going forward, writing effective and sincere apologies for past events is really something worth considering. Not just for events involving players that have posted here, but for players that deserve an apology more generally.
- Overall, I'm hopeful for what's to come, but honestly I feel like I haven't seen a huge commitment to the new way of communicating yet. Largely because it's only been a couple days, but also partly because it feels like certain conversations about how staff will go about it feel half-finished.
So last time I played "Hardcore" (Logging in nearly daily, multiple hours per login) was in August of this year. I had some awesome plots going and was able to play a character that was fun for me oocly as well as IC stir up some shit and do various things.
He died to a stupid thing, and was relatively older, so able to do all the things I enjoy, hunting, exploring etc etc.
So I stopped playing for a few reasons:
1. I didn't really feel like the grind of say two weeks real time to be able to get my dude to the area where he isn't gonna get killed if a random dark beetle wandered into me.
2. I didn't want to recycle the same type of things I was doing on the last character just with a new clan.
Now, I'm only a... well shitI forgot what Karma I am, but I only can play d-elfs and touched types without special apps, whatever that is, 2? I don't remember.
So being that I am more of a go hunt, kill things type of guy (NPCS mostly, not really into PVP), it limits my character choices that I find -fun-.
So sure I could go be a merchant, crafter, bynner etc etc and make a go at it, but I tend to find not much going on with those roles and tend to end up sitting in a bar waiting on someone to stop by or interact with me till I inevitably log off.
So for me, I'd say if I had access to the "real" magicker lists on my whim, at whatever karma that is, 3? I'd have more flavor choices to play with, without burning a special app.
So maybe lowering the gate for that stuff would keep me more interested and refreshed?
The sad strength and weakness of this game is it relies on one another. So if I make a kickass hunter but there are no people to buy my skinnings and shit, well that's pointless, now I'm a badass hunter carrying around max endurance of scrab shells and shit because nobody needs it.
So that's why, in my humble opinion, having more interesting roles for us lower tier folks to play would be a good thing. Maybe a restructuring of the merchant houses and how they operate with crafters would be nice too, because I remember last time I worked for them it was rules after rules and it made it exhausting as you're waiting for dealer this or merchant that to log in.
It's not an easy thing to answer or a simple thing to change either and I get that. One hand wants to maintain the ambiance and rarity of things, the other hand wants to explore the available possibilities to the fullest and you really can't have one without killing the other.
Quote from: Riev on November 04, 2022, 12:35:47 PM
I think we should know what makes you a "problem player".
We collectively havent and wont agree on what the game should be. I personally draw the line at continued, willful bug abuse. Its really obvious with a hair of research that some of the most pk focused characters were abusing the snot of a "power" bug for at least five years. Yes, the bug is now resolved, by the good work of Halaster.
A couple of those people are now crying about being potentially limited from our common addiction. #set sympathy 0.
I just want to say another small thing. I'm not as passionate about being salty as some. Salt is bad for the heart. Be nicer to each other, for fu-sakes
That said, I -know- for a fact that each and every staff member does this job because they love this game as much as any and all the players. I've a number of stories where I think I got the short end of the shaft. It is what it is. I come back (never really left) because this is a -great- game and -great- community, and I know the staff have been working hard to make all aspects of the game...Better.
I applaud the staff and players for making my time here (since 94), a continued enjoyment in my life.
So, I want to thank all of you, for what you do.
Peace.
Heh. Apologies.
Had a conversation with a client. The dude refused to pay the whole amount because of something very small that he badly explained wasnt done. Didnt want it done anymore, just wanted to not pay. My office worker, a 23yr old kid, told the client we'd pull the equipment if not paid.
Anyways. I intervened. Had a chat. Blah blah blah. Some Celven double talk. The dude wrote the cheque. But then sent me this message.
I do want to have apologies from Natalie for threatening me for removing the unit, is that fair?
Result? I pulled all of the equipment. Refunded him the money at 2k loss to myself and black listed the motherfucker.
The desire to wagon circle is strong within us all.
Quote from: Dar on November 07, 2022, 03:50:42 PM
Heh. Apologies.
Had a conversation with a client. The dude refused to pay the whole amount because of something very small that he badly explained wasnt done. Didnt want it done anymore, just wanted to not pay. My office worker, a 23yr old kid, told the client we'd pull the equipment if not paid.
Anyways. I intervened. Had a chat. Blah blah blah. Some Celven double talk. The dude wrote the cheque. But then sent me this message.
I do want to have apologies from Natalie for threatening me for removing the unit, is that fair?
Result? I pulled all of the equipment. Refunded him the money at 2k loss to myself and black listed the motherfucker.
The desire to wagon circle is strong within us all.
This does not make you look good, that seems like a relatively polite request. You could've just said - no they were following policy, but I'm glad we got it worked out.
Any time you're circling wagons, you're closing yourself off to outside perspectives and that's going to upset people. In the business world that can make some amount of sense (not dealing with a client you don't need or whatever) but in an online collaborative roleplaying game concerned about its numbers, approaching from a place of empathy is the best thing to do.
Im not arguing that. Even in a business world it was a dumb move. Regardless of my circulation, tossing 2k out and other matters is just dumb. I was willing to give the client discounts, extra warranties, etc. But the moment he went "I want one of your people to humiliate themselves to satisfy me" I went completely bananas.
Had a few hrs to contemplate it and realized a correlation with Arm situation.
My final thoughts. I'm going to say this from the heart (sigh, gross) -
I've been in this community (on and off) since roughly 2006 which is, much to my horror, going on about eighteen years played.
I got into Armageddon a couple of years out of high school because an ex long in the past was telling me about this game where you could do anything. I didn't believe him. I had never heard of a MUD but I had been a gamer since the 90's. As a writer once I got engaged in the game world and play? I was hooked. And I sort of had to be. My ex, a very abusive person, had an addictive personality and the game soon became my escape as years went by. Time passed, as did that relationship.
At one point, a couple of years after that, I went five years without playing Armageddon, and just when I thought I would never return again... I did!
I'm not going to lie, at every single 'era' of my own personal play I've witnessed horribly toxic staff, good staff and really genuinely wonderful staff. However up until recently I would say the bad staff generally outweighed the good staff.
I have met people from this community, had romantic relationships from this community. I met my very best friend from this community, who years later just came to my wedding in January. I love her like a sister. Many people have been married from this community (that includes myself). To some of us, this has not just been an online world - but a living, breathing community that has impacted the flow of our very lives forever. Sounds lame, and I wanted to deny it to myself for a long while but now I've accepted it. It's been almost twenty years of my life.
When I talk about feeling "groomed" or a fear of "physical safety" these aren't hot button words I'm trying to throw around needlessly. There are real people behind these screens. The onus is 100% on staff to protect the players. That is how the power dynamic is arrayed.
I am in a really good place in my life right now and I genuinely do not want to rehash the past for my own selfish reasons. Because frankly, I just don't have the energy and I've learned over time it's a wasted cause. I don't want to dig up receipts. I don't want to come for anyone. I'm not ready for that, maybe never will be.
But what I will say is that there are power dynamics at play in this game out of character unlike any other game. You don't have to "get in good" with the developers to be able to win a game on play station. There is the real threat of a slippery slope for abuse. Abuse that not only can hurt someone's gaming experience - but their actual lives. Especially because the gateway to abuse is deceitfully easy. All someone has to do is begin playing. Maybe it's weeks, maybe it's years, but eventually the "other side" of the game comes through. When I was twenty three and in a very vulnerable emotional position this happened to me.
What I'm trying to say is that above all else, game mechanics, lore, etc aside ---
The staff has an onus to protect the players against predatory behavior, sexual harassment, from minors being involved in the mature themes of this game and to actually enforce not only rules but to embolden a culture of consent and gender equity.
It does not take a magnifying glass to reveal the common vein running through this very large thread - staff have hurt me.
I really want to emphasize the impact of that. We're talking mental health, sexual safety, preventing groom etc.
And so far the solution offered by staff lacks transparency. It should not. I, like so many others, have not seen results from my complaints made in Discord or through the complaints system. As a community we either have transparency and work out issues as a community with full accountability. Or? Staff continue to take complaints about their own kind behind the proverbial closed door. You can't be transparent, open and honest and still have this as a policy. And I frankly, do not trust the policy because I, as so many others have said, have not seen the staff genuinely holding one another accountable. The staff are a close knit group of friends that are going to be reluctant to penalize their peers. The infrastructure does not have proper due process from what I can tell. I understand you're all volunteers, but you're volunteers with power over a hobby that is very significant to some and can even represent a desperate escapism at the current state of their lives.
At the end of the day, I don't think staff are bad people, at least not all of them. And I have no intention of hyper focusing on every slight. I can see that an overload of criticism has led staff to minimalizing and compartmentalizing serious issues that have arisen over time. While I understand that's a coping mechanism it really can not be a crutch when people's lives are the collateral damage. And yes, I mean that literally. Even if people, like myself, come back to the game - it shouldn't negate their lived in experiences. You can't expect senior players to come back and then compartmentalize their own distress in turn. It's all going to continue to fester to the surface in a cycle of inconsistent player numbers and GDB drama until there is a genuine way to address this and change the culture.
My opinion is that right now I see the staff genuinely trying to foster a better culture and work hard not to tune players out. I really like my current staff members and I hope I get to keep them because it really can make or break the experience here on Arm. I have sent several staff kudos over the recent years, alongside my complaints. I can appreciate the game and the good experiences I have while still being deeply troubled at other things I've witnessed. I feel and hope, the game's culture might be taking slow steps in a good direction. But it's 2022, technology is fast and a lot of us are getting old. Things need to change a little faster than they used to.
Some of the senior players swearing off the game makes me sad because we as a community lose when we lose people like Delirium and Ender. They've had some integral, wonderful characters over the years, have been wonderful and integral people and I genuinely hope they return. I think people like them could serve as an excellent player advocate.
Overall, there can't be backroom deals and transparency. There can't be strides towards regrowth and still opting to focus on bad blood with former players. They're can't be a mature game of sex, drugs and murder - and also a safe space for minors. The cognitive dissonance needs to end. It's a big turn off for a lot of us.
Staff need to seriously consider everything that's been said here and genuinely pick the identity they want the game to have and the culture surrounding it and then embrace it and their players further. I love the increasingly collaborative approach the staff has continued to take with players. I hope that will grow but I also hope (but don't hold my breath) that staff will embrace a genuine, transparent system to root out predatory and harmful behaviors. Stop claiming that doing things in the darkness protects players... it doesn't. There is a way to hold staff accountable (who have the upper hand in the OOC power dynamic) without hurting players. As long as staff do not do this it will not go unnoticed and players will not go unharmed or missing from the community.
Long story short - at the end of the day the mechanics are whatever, I'm concerned about the people on the other end of the screens and it was this issue that drove me away during my most recent one year break.
If I could thumbs up Bebop post, I would.
Here is a question to the community.
Mechanically, how do we create transparancy. How do people imagine this working?
Quote from: Dar on November 07, 2022, 09:00:37 PM
If I could thumbs up Bebop post, I would.
Here is a question to the community.
Mechanically, how do we create transparancy. How do people imagine this working?
You have someone, or a small group of people, handle such complaints. Someone completely separate from each and every one other staffer; someone with the full privileges to delve into anything to get to the bottom of what issues are around and whose judgment is made to
stick.tl;dr: separation of powers. 1700s political philosophy is a bit ornery, but here we are.
Literally have it be visible which staff are on when they are on, and if they are idle or not, because it is very easy to narrow down who is doing what in anonymous tells and animations if you know only 3 people could have and 1 of them was idle. I don't like this idea of having 1 person in a special position. Why? Who do you think is going to select that person? The very people they are supposed to be holding accountable. That doesn't sound like a good motivation to find a neutral party. But if everyone knows that this one guy always seems to be on when these shitty animations happen... it becomes pretty easy to peg pretty quick.
Not to say anyone is doing shitty animations at current, that's just an example, it could extend to someone that got sent an anonymous tell that made them feel bad as well.
No offense to anyone, but I think I have been playing as long as I have because I mostly focus on the mechanics and mundane roles of the game and avoid interacting with the community OOCly. I really want to have some sympathy but the social drama and outcry from this thread feels little overblown.
To be fair, for years I have asked staff to continue to work to implement policies or code that reduce the impact of the favouritism and OOC cheating that goes on between staff and players. And I specifically say 'reduce the impact' because in all sincerity it is impossible to eliminate it. There are some players and staff here who are friends, lovers, or whatever else floats their boats and quite frankly I am okay with that. I don't expect them to prioritize my needs and I expect them to help each other out or just interact with each other more often than not. However, the game needs to keep working to ensure a balanced playing field for the everyone despite the fact that people will build these relationships which further promotes cheating and favoritism. Its taken a few steps in the right direction over the years, for example by being more open about code such as what skills class gets, but further work needs to be done.
Ultimately the game some people are describing here is not the same game I experience, which just often involves hoping the weather is good for grebbing or traveling. And I have nothing against the old vets who wants to fix the interactions with their favorite staff member as they play their sponsors roles, sorcerers or secret roles with intricate and sometimes world changing plot lines filled with sex, murder and corruption...but I am still hoping the coded issues brought up get a bit more priority in this conversation. :-/
Quote from: dumbstruck on November 07, 2022, 10:10:09 PM
Who do you think is going to select that person?
We vote them in for half-year terms, of course. No issue judging the actions of staff or individual players when the community as a whole's who you're beholden to.
My Final thoughts:
There are three things I should staff should do:
1. Ask amongst themselves - What did old staffers like Sanvean, Vendyra, etc do differently, where they were universally loved, even when they rebuked people, and maintained the playerbase's respect and trust?
2. Ask amongst themselves - What did old staffers like Nyy do, who were universally hated, that lost the trust and respect of staff?
3. After you have both lists, identify which items on each you are being told you are doing and not doing, evaluate and make the changes necessary.
For Players we should:
1. Identify the behaviors we do and do not appreciate from staff
2. Look over the behaviors and see which ones staff have said we do, evaluate and make the changes necessary
It is a two way street, and self awareness and acknowledgement of both the good and the bad is the path forward.
Quote from: Bebop on November 07, 2022, 08:29:03 PM
My final thoughts. I'm going to say this from the heart (sigh, gross) .......
This is a fantastic post. I have never experienced the things you posted about to a harmful degree, but absolutely believe what you outlined is a real issue for this community (and many others).
The fact that I've never experienced these things is exactly why the problem persists. It's out of sight and out of mind. It's hard to accept that people you like may have done unpleasant things to others, especially if you've never seen them do it yourself. What accusations are true, and which are false? How much did an incident in Armageddon hurt someone on the other side of the monitor?
I don't think there are any easy solves for these problems. Give people power over others, and inevitably there will be cases of abuse. Eliminating abuse is an impossibility, but we
can strive to create an environment where it's harder to conceal, and verified abuse cases are addressed. Having staff leadership think about the best way to achieve this would be fruitful. Having that solution be inclusive of all members of this community, both staff and players, would be ideal. There's been enough complaints by thoughtful, mature members of this community that I think we can safely say the current system isn't cutting it and needs to be improved.
Xenophobia is the bane of the game. We have too many tribes that are outright so xenophobic they basically play in their own isolated bubble. I would like some sort of diplomatic exchange from north to south and between the tribes and the cities that would force more interaction. You can't have conflict if everyone is sitting in their own backyard refusing to go talk to anyone outside out of constant fear of death or because they would be ignoring the heavily xenophobic documentation of their race/tribe/whatnot.
This happens in the cities too. My last noble was very successful as nobles go but I was so isolated. I go to a common places; commoners either all one by one leave because they are worried I'm just there to fuck with them or someone tries to murder me for no other reason than to snatch my metal ring and put a notch on their belt.
Conflict and role-play (the fun stuff) comes naturally when lots of people are forced to interact. To get that they need to be in the room. I really feel like the isolation stagnants a the game. Playing with the same 3-4 people in a sandbox gets old. Sometimes I think the game has become a haven for murder hobos as well. I like my PCs I invest in them I don't want them to die. Sometimes it feels like if I leave my sandbox I'm more likely to get killed so someone else can put a notch on their belt.
P.S. Also all that said I have been playing on and off since 2003. I'm having more fun right now than I have in a long time. I love seeing staff led plots happening again. I love seeing things coming from player led plots. Arm just requires a huge amount of time and that's hard for me with young kids. Sometimes I just exhausted and ready for bed at 8:30 pm
Quote from: Bast on November 08, 2022, 03:39:02 AM
Xenophobia is the bane of the game. We have too many tribes that are outright so xenophobic they basically play in their own isolated bubble. I would like some sort of diplomatic exchange from north to south and between the tribes and the cities that would force more interaction. You can't have conflict if everyone is sitting in their own backyard refusing to go talk to anyone outside out of constant fear of death or because they would be ignoring the heavily xenophobic documentation of their race/tribe/whatnot.
This happens in the cities too. My last noble was very successful as nobles go but I was so isolated. I go to a common places; commoners either all one by one leave because they are worried I'm just there to fuck with them or someone tries to murder me for no other reason than to snatch my metal ring and put a notch on their belt.
Conflict and role-play (the fun stuff) comes naturally when lots of people are forced to interact. To get that they need to be in the room. I really feel like the isolation stagnants a the game. Playing with the same 3-4 people in a sandbox gets old. Sometimes I think the game has become a haven for murder hobos as well. I like my PCs I invest in them I don't want them to die. Sometimes it feels like if I leave my sandbox I'm more likely to get killed so someone else can put a notch on their belt.
P.S. Also all that said I have been playing on and off since 2003. I'm having more fun right now than I have in a long time. I love seeing staff led plots happening again. I love seeing things coming from player led plots. Arm just requires a huge amount of time and that's hard for me with young kids. Sometimes I just exhausted and ready for bed at 8:30 pm
All very true.
I think this upcoming HRPT has launched alot of cool plots and storylines that have been basically unheard of for quite some time now. Why? Because leaving things in player-plot limbo only leads to general stagnation and the biggest city drama being a Templar harassing some grebber in the tavern because they lack anything else to do. Players simply aren't given enough tools to create interesting plots that don't involve around simple things like murder or mudsecks or pointless vengeance quests over very minor things.
Staff need to be actively pushing players together to butt heads, with plots and plot hooks, and with no fear about disturbing things. The DMs are meant to stir the pot. This is being done lately, and I think it's made the game world feel much more alive then it was a couple months ago when peaks were in the 20s.
Staff are doing so much plot wise at the moment and really for the last 8 months, it's pretty awe inspiring to see, in my opinion. And I feel overall said plots are far less railroaded than back in the day.
I for one am overall excited and cautiously optimistic about what the future holds, and I think we as players should play as ic as humanly possible so we all get the full enjoyment out of it together.
But that's just like, my opinion man.
I'd like to see each city and tribe have at least one resource that they exclusively have control over and one they need from an outside source. Make Luirs a safe zone for everyone as long as you don't act a fool. Maybe have need to trade important enough that Nak and Tuluki need to establish embassy's with a pc noble rep being sent opposite city for diplomatic purposes regarding trade. Even during the Cold War we had ambassadors from Russia in America ect. A sign war is coming might be embassies getting shut down that would reopen after the conflict because Tuluki needs salt and Allanak needs cotton certain plants for cures or what not. Get people out of their compounds. Maybe make some public areas a lot safer and trade routes patrolled by npcs to facilitate more travel between places.
I played a pretty well known-tribal that did all this stuff without any special help (in fact I had the room I was using at the start entirely removed lol), and it worked great, because it's pretty much why Luir's exists :) Problem is that sometimes if you don't have that line in the docs, some people (even with karma) in tribal roles sometimes then end up sitting around in taverns in Allanak or Tuluk instead of Luir's and end up losing everything that would distinguish them from being just another aide - a great example was a closed clan that got reopened, but then ended just another boring puppet due to a bad leader, and their boosted skills (which didn't even make sense for the role or theme) got abused as a bodyguard. Got to have a line somewhere or there just isn't one
Staff probably do need to make sure that people have reasons to leave their wagons/estates/walled waterslides though, and build that more often into areas and lore instead of giving everyone everything they need with no danger to them (WHEN SO MUCH OF THE GAME IC IS ABOUT ACCESS TO FOOD AND WATER AND SO HAVING REASONS TO TALK TO THE OTHERS THAT NEED TO EAT AS WELL!), you do have a point there though - I think in a few cases people made pretty obvious and avoidable mistakes when building clans :D There should also be more nudges if players hide away - so it's not just a staff oversight here, I remember - and appreciating it at the time - getting told at one point we were not seen enough in public, and need to be out there making stories and waves with the new players instead of being invisible - I did notice Hestia's recent role call mentioned wanting nobles to be seen publicly, that seemed cool - you've said the lore, but at the same time, you've said that part of it is OOC fear of being killed, but staff don't seem to approve at all of just killing people for no reason, so I think part of that might be the vision of how the game used to be sticking with people, even if times have moved on a bit for the better (to the point Armaddict keeps saying he wishes people were killing people more without any RP, lol! I think you're probably ok)
I think staff are trying to be better, I have a good sense for stuff like that - and have pointed out a few times when there's been mistakes, it's actually really touching when you read how some of how vicious OOCly the Armageddon meta-backstory has been, it feels like they are genuinely trying to listen more
I think the idea of being able to see staff names might make things worse unintentionally, because if if people were able to see which staff are around, and know if one new staff only watches their clan - crappy things players can do when they think staff might not be watching, which affects the enjoyment of other players, would also go up maaaaassively.
I think it'd be a good idea to move off Discord (https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord) and build the website up more in a way that none of this OOC badness has a chance to happen and keep things IC and at arms reach - so people can give playtimes in check-boxes without needing to be in a situation where they're exposing themselves to an avenue of people slipping into DMs where at some point they're probably going to have peer pressure put on them from players for their character to take certain actions or not do things (and it would stop a lot of potential staff issues too) - It's silly to put people that are often mentally vulnerable to it in a situation and expect them to not get abused by people, they're random newbies not people trained in a piece of agricultural architecture to resist interrogation, it's setting people up to fail - it'd change things so immensely to cut that part of Armageddon out that has apparently plagued it from the start
Something that recently gotten me with the request tool is the wait times and not knowing if the request in question is being discussed in the Staffland. It would be nice if there was a canned response saying that it's being actively discussed. That would allow us to know what it's seem at least.
Quote from: Dar on November 07, 2022, 04:52:13 PM
Im not arguing that. Even in a business world it was a dumb move. Regardless of my circulation, tossing 2k out and other matters is just dumb. I was willing to give the client discounts, extra warranties, etc. But the moment he went "I want one of your people to humiliate themselves to satisfy me" I went completely bananas.
Had a few hrs to contemplate it and realized a correlation with Arm situation.
Fair! Sorry for assuming. But the circle-the-wagons is a destructive instinct, not a constructive one. You have to kill your darlings and do what's best for the greater community.
Quote from: Barsook on November 08, 2022, 04:29:55 PM
Something that recently gotten me with the request tool is the wait times and not knowing if the request in question is being discussed in the Staffland. It would be nice if there was a canned response saying that it's being actively discussed. That would allow us to know what it's seem at least.
Rathustra and a few others used to do that a lot. Just threw a message that request has been read and they're actively discussing it. Once some kind if plan of action manifests, he'd reply properly.
Quote from: tiny rainbow on November 08, 2022, 11:34:59 AMThere should also be more nudges if players hide away - so it's not just a staff oversight here, I remember - and appreciating it at the time - getting told at one point we were not seen enough in public, and need to be out there making stories and waves with the new players instead of being invisible - I did notice Hestia's recent role call mentioned wanting nobles to be seen publicly, that seemed cool - you've said the lore, but at the same time, you've said that part of it is OOC fear of being killed, but staff don't seem to approve at all of just killing people for no reason, so I think part of that might be the vision of how the game used to be sticking with people, even if times have moved on a bit for the better (to the point Armaddict keeps saying he wishes people were killing people more without any RP, lol! I think you're probably ok)
I'll comment on this part of your post since you mentioned me :)
First, I'm flattered that you remembered it. It's been awhile since I posted it.
In my observation, it seems to always boil down to "fear of being killed." I can make things easy for everyone with this spoiler: if you don't store your character, they WILL die, eventually. Guaranteed. You can't stop it.
Accept that - and run with it. HOW do you want your character to die? Promote that narrative. Make sure that you do whatever you can to ensure your character's eventual death is at the very least interesting. At best, the ultimate explosive RP'ed thrill for both yourself and your character's killer after a long reign.
That's why I nudge my noble players to get out there. They have an aide to hire. Or replace. Or a Kadian to buy from. Or an elf to berate. Or a filthy grey rat to run away from, screaming. It sucks losing a character you love playing. But I believe it sucks even more, losing one that most people will say "oh - yeah I remember that name. Never met them, no idea what they were about".
Even more of a loss are all the other players of characters in the same city, who could have become involved in even simple things like "this noble had his guard yell at me because I didn't remember his middle name!" or "that noble gave me five hundred sids to teach them a dance step right there outside the Dome!"
My nobles right now are all pretty amazing. I'm honored to be their staffer. They get out, they do stuff, they involve other people, they're recognized. Everyone benefits from it. The players of the nobles, and the players of everyone who interacts with them.
Since the purpose of this thread is to ascertain reasons for player dissatisfaction - I'd like to take a moment to post a brief note, which might be a slight derail.
There have been instances when players have mentioned that they are not quite satisfied with responses from Staff members, to their requests.
Considerations to be taken into account here :
a) Please format your requests in a manner that is easy to copy/paste when Staff need to respond point-wise. Alternatively, you could confer with the Staff member(s) overseeing your PC/Clan as to how they'd like their reports formatted. Same applies to point h) below.
b) Please separate your requests into two parts: the first containing information you wish to convey to Staff and the second containing your queries or "asks" from Staff.
c) Please do not feel "short-changed" if Staff responds to the portion of your request containing information as simply "noted". This just means that Staff has taken cognisance of the information.
d) For your queries or "asks", please try and be as succinct as possible, so that Staff can reply with as much accuracy as possible.
e) Please for the love of God, pick the right clan when sending in your requests. If you are unclanned, take a moment to pick "Unclanned" from the drop-down menu. Believe me, it helps Staff immensely to identify and respond to properly-tagged requests in the shortest turn-around time. If the request is aimed at a certain Staff member or a group - please mention that in the title. (For the attention of Southern Team - for example).
f) You are most welcome to provide as much detail as you wish/need in your reports, but please understand that when Staff responds to certain points with a single-line answer, they may not be in a position to respond to each of your points in an elaborate manner all the time. However, where required, they will endeavour to provide you with as much detail as required and allowed (in view of various other IC and OOC considerations).
g) If a request is time-sensitive or urgent, please mark it so in the title. We'll try and attend to those on priority.
h) Avoid using the bulleting feature - it causes a lot of formatting problems when Staff have to respond point-wise. Instead just use paragraphs or number your points manually. (please see point a) above).
i) Unless absolutely required, short-and-sweet is best.
j) Please include logs - those really help!
k) Last but not the least, if there's something you don't understand in a response from Staff, please feel free to ask for a clarification. Similarly, if Staff asks you for certain clarifications, please do not consider it to be some sort of "interrogation". The idea is to conclude the request satisfactorily, in the shortest possible time, from both sides, without misunderstandings.
Communication between Players and Staff is a vital part of everyone having a pleasant and enjoyable experience on Arm, and holds equal weightage as in-game play! I'm hoping the Arm community can synch up on this so it's a positive experience for all.
Edited to add : These points are not official policy, but my personal suggestions from several years of experience on Arm. So please take them with a pinch of salt.
I always hated when things started getting that formalized. It wasn't always a thing. I used to have outright conversations through email chains with my staffers, more akin to a discord discussion of today, but with time between. That's where a giant disconnect started happening for me, was when my staffers started feeling more like a review board or submission panel who is more intent on curbing desires than facilitating. When it became so contractual-feeling and weird that it was like I was signing a dotted line, and whenever things didn't work out the way we(tm) planned, it was a croc-o-shit, not just the way the cards fell.
I know that's not true, by the way, and it -still- feels that way sometimes. And I still have that relationship with some staffers but not with others. But I think it reveals a total catch-22 of the whole 'PLAYERS FOR PLAYERS' movement, which is that there is a driving element of the player base to break the player and staff divide, to come together, to have staff treat them this way or that way, but there is the simultaneous expectation of absolute professionalism and formality and perfection. It makes it so that staff acting one way can upset the need for things to be on the opposite end of the spectrum (which is different both from player to player and time to time), but acting the other would draw the polar opposite reaction in the same scenario. There's a lot of 'how dare you' involved in places that always seemed awkward to me.
So, with this thread being locked today, I thought I might actually post something in here again, specifically because of a portion of what Armaddict mentioned.
One thing that I find difficult to get past on occasion is that it feels as if actually trying to achieve anything meaningful or long-lasting in the game isn't.. I don't want to say it's not allowed, but comes across as fairly discouraged despite the public staff voice on the matter. It's easy to say that you're interested in working with players to build up their new clans, or to build up their plots, or ideas, or goals, but more often than not you jump over one hurdle only to get smacked with another, slightly-more insurmountable one. I haven't experienced this a lot, but it's certainly been something I've noticed from time to time. My staffers are lovely, and I appreciate them, and value their efforts, but I believe the restrictions against adding to the game as a PLAYER is exhausting at times.
We all dedicate hours of our days, weeks of our months, and years of our lives to this game, and we all want to see our efforts bear fruit. Of course, you're not always going to win, not every plot will succeed, and not every idea will work out for one reason or another. However, there seems to be a disconnect between how it affects staff and players--as well as their responses to such. I'm guilty of feeling extremely disheartened when things go horrendously awry--in the moment of it happening, and I can imagine there are plenty of other people who experience the same. Yet, the response to that is almost always some variation of: "most ideas fail," which when you think of it, makes you wonder why you should even bother trying if you're going to be told no, or that there's the looming shadow that all of your efforts will probably be for naught/you'll be shafted in some form or another. Not to say that it's the intention of staff to do so, but sometimes that's just how the cookie crumbles.
I personally lack a sense of personal agency within the game--I mean, I can do and accomplish things, but it's at the behest of Staff, none of it feels like I get to decide in the grand scheme of things.
Players lack self-agency.
I imagine, if that were to be somehow adjusted or fixed, a handful of issues can be addressed.
HOWEVER. It is extremely simple to sit back and critique the game--pick out all of its flaws and weaknesses, tug at the weaker links, and I wish I had something more concrete to offer as a suggestion to further my opinion on the matter.
As stated previously that this thread will be locked today, I am locking it now. There will likely be more staff communication coming in the future around these topics, so the locking of the thread doesn't indicate it's all "done".