Feedback on playing and log-ins

[Kestria]

I've been seeing a GMH sponsored role pop up about once a month lately. It sounds to me like there's a problem with the role. It's one of four things:
1. it's boring for whatever reason ('I hate being a glow crystal vendor')
2. it's stressful for whatever reason ('a templar is breathing down my neck for not constantly appealing to their wishes')
3. it's unengaging for whatever reason ('I can't find employees because nobody's playing crafters/not wanting to join the clan')
4. It's uninspiring for whatever reason ('I can't get an escort to fulfil my goals or obligations! Where are all the mercenaries?')

(this isn't a sassy response, just my take on the very-clear issue you brought up)

I'll try my best to keep it as non-IC-revealing as possible, but:

Being in a GMH sponsored role is incredibly stressful for some first-timers, because the reality of it is vastly different to whatever expectations you have going into it. Not to mention, you're trying to narrowly navigate the political platform of whichever city-state you're in while also being a subservient vending machine who can pay exorbitant fees to whichever corrupt person or group is trying to squeeze out of you day-1. It feels entirely too cumbersome when other players are breathing down your neck, and even if you're playing a corrupt character, give these folks some time to breathe and maybe we'll have someone who actually stays in the position.

I feel this is the issue the Merchant Houses have been having for quite a while now.  I have played several Merchants of different Houses and sometimes it can be really fun, and other times it can be really numbing.  I feel like there is not enough staff support on people that play in Merchant Houses, being ordering items in and in to the warehouse.. if you cannot get on ON the day they are loaded in, and there is a reset, boom, it's gone, and it can take another few IRL days to get back in for staff to have the time to get to loading it all back up again, meanwhile you have Amos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and beyond all screaming and complaining at you that their order isn't in yet.  The last merchant I played, I made a point to have at least five of most common pieces made up, and a few of other things.. and stacked away in crates/chests etc so that if anyone needed ANYTHING boom they have it straight to hand, instead of having to wait and keep track of orders that need filling.   It made life SO much easier for myself as the merchant, as well as other players that needed orders. 

I have always thought item orders should be put in a bag and then placed in the warehouse, instead of having to have it loaded onto the vendors because half the time it just causes problems.  I personally think that Merchant roles should have a slightly bigger team behind them to assist players in these roles, or, bring back having 2 in the same place, so that it avoids that feeling of 'I'm a vendor'.  More so, that, most of the time, new roles mean they have to build a brand new 'crew' behind them, and, it is quite hard to do everything yourself straight off the bat.

The roles are amazing to play and very fulfilling, but, it is hard to push plots or be anything other than a glorified vending machine when one single person is expected to cater to a whole player base at once, and have to wait for at least a real life week to get any response from things that needed assistance 5 days ago.

Templars, Nobles, Sergeants, Aides etc are also quite a problem as, some people get a bit too 'trigger happy' with them and instantly leap upon new characters which can be incredibly daunting for the player of a new character they have yet to flesh out.

[Derain]

The fact that people are bored in Allanak is a huge issue for GMH.. They tend to just leap on anyone doing anything and look for every excuse to make their life hard. I find the more active you are even if you're not trying to cause issues people tend to still find reasons to try to push you out.

Also being stuck in 1 place in a merchant role should be against the law, if I want to leave Nak I should be allowed if there is some real crazy BS going on.

[Halaster]

I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.

I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem.  I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.

Got any specific examples of a better system?  Would love to hear them.

From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.

So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring  the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.

Specifically I was looking for suggestions to Halcyon's statement "...find a replacement solution that doesn't reduce player interest" in regards to a new karma system.

[CirclelessBard]

I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.

I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem.  I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.

Got any specific examples of a better system?  Would love to hear them.

From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.

So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring  the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.

Specifically I was looking for suggestions to Halcyon's statement "...find a replacement solution that doesn't reduce player interest" in regards to a new karma system.

I see. Tinkering with a new screen reader, so I think I missed that context.
Even so, I think an answer to my questions would be useful to the overall discussion if you have some time to answer them. Thanks in advance.

[Derain]

As for the karma? Take away the timer on at very least the first point. I believe the cool down should just be removed at this point and just let people play.. Perhaps a rule of no magickers twice in a row.

[Halcyon]

I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.

I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem.  I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.

Got any specific examples of a better system?  Would love to hear them.

Shadows of Isildur had a RPP role system that I think could be coopted and modified to result in a number of openings for S or Y race or subguild within a specific narrative context.

Example:
Byn mul warslave (1) (2 or 3 karma) - A cap on one Byn mul warslave at any point, but specapps or karma can be used to apply for it.   Frankly, this might even be a karma 2 role with all of the restrictions on it.

House Jal "Pipecleaner"  (1) (1 or 2 karma) - For the time being, there is a cap of one gemmed vivaduan in the employ of House Jal.  This can be any subguild.  This role will begin with a gem and five hundred extra coins.


A second set of these could be broken out by current clan access -
Sun Runner Bahak (1) (2 karma) -
Two Moons Choked Watercarrier (1) (1 karma) -
Northern Templar (2)
Southern Templar (2)

I dont think you would list how many of each tribe or clan were allowed, but give players where there was meaty story goodness to aim for, even with current pcs who could be trained, politic'd or be sentenced into some roles.


A third set of these could be broken out by current open plots
Southern Arena Gladiator (12)
Tuluki Templarate Mul warslave (1)


I suspect that knowing what roles were possible would be far better than any shield of information on plots.   I think this would be doubly so if a role wasnt closed until a player had kept at it for a month without their character dying or storing.   I think this approach would also add some transparency on how many players were engaged, and how many were tied up in "Sekrit" stuff.

[najdorf]

I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.

I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem.  I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.

Got any specific examples of a better system?  Would love to hear them.

From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.

So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring  the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.

Specifically I was looking for suggestions to Halcyon's statement "...find a replacement solution that doesn't reduce player interest" in regards to a new karma system.

Remove karma timers
Add +5 cap to mundane class skills (all skills across the board) as someone else suggested in a different thread (when no karma is used)

[pilgrim]

lacking many coded mechanics that are just basic must-haves for roleplay games in my opinion
...
Anyway, I hope this helps?

It would be much more helpful if you gave examples, please.  Not picking on you specifically, but when people say things like "Armageddon needs a better crafting system", but doesn't give ideas or examples, or when they say "Armageddon is outdated, they need to modernize" with no specifics, or when they say "there's things lacking it should have" but don't tell us what they think those are, there isn't really much we can do.  In those scenarios, I think "Ok, crafting system isn't to their liking.  What is?" but I have no answers.

I know you said a lot more in your post than that, but I notice that trend a lot.  People seem appalled that we don't have something better, but don't offer ideas or solutions.  Not saying you haven't personally before, but hopefully you get my point.

I'm going to go with the idea that it's worth the time to write out some suggestions, and someone I respect vouched for "Halaster trying to improve the game" so I'm going to try to assume the best despite witnessing many past occassions of concrete ideas being shot down or ignored.

Since this will be a wall of text, here's a song to listen to while you read it, because I'm considerate!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU39wKOvONI


Starting off, what do I mean by "roleplaying" game? How can it be that I think Armageddon lacks many vital mechanical features of a "roleplaying" game? Well, I see a roleplaying game as one in which you can play out the story of a character immersively. This means you want as few distractions towards the mechanical reality of the game, or the real world, as possible. The coded features must be smooth, not clunky and awkward. The fact that the world is persistent and our characters are not always logged in must not detract from the story. Events happening in the game must make sense in such a way that we don't have to constantly struggle to suspend disbelief.

Here's a made-up example: Jerim the Ignorant Half-Elf is in love with his neighbor, Sera the Secret Half-Elf. Sera and Jerim have gotten very close. Sera confesses her secret identity to Jerim and Jerim struggles with it but they remain friends somehow because Jerim also suspects the same about himself. Sera gets into some conflict with the [gang redacted] and suddenly she disappears. Jerim is confused and upset. He always used to go over to Sera's apartment and she'd let him in and they'd talk about anything and everything, but now Sera has disappeared. It's strange because her apartment shows no signs of robbery. Even her key is in a pack in the apartment. But she is gone. So weird. Jerim goes around trying to find out if the [gang redacted] assassinated her, but nope. Maybe [gang redacted] is just really good at it. Jerim becomes a spice addict out of grief and eventually died while trying to get revenge on [gang redacted]'s [redacted leader] in [redacted way].

What actually happened is: Sera was experimenting with cures, drank a poison, puked herself to death all over the apartment, and then her corpse decayed in a matter of hours. Other similarly non-gang fates: Sera's player got sick and stopped logging in for the rest of Jerim's life. Later she logged back in and was locked in her own apartment and needed staff to teleport her out. Or maybe even Sera's player got bored and stored.

It makes no sense for any of these things to be so hard for Jerim to suss out in-character. It's aggravating and infuriating for staff to act as if certain things must be found out IC when they are not IC things or the code is actively bad, anti-RP, and stops you from finding out IC.  (One time a staff member was pretty rude to me and acted like I was metagaming because I just wanted to find out if someone was online or not during a time that they had agreed ICly to be online. I thought they weren't because the keyword I was using to Way them was wrong.  Their full name was something like Gormless Bastard, and I was using CONTACT GORMLESS.BASTARD when really I should have just done CONTACT GORMLESS. After giving up, I ended up running across them in the street. Totally confusing BS. But this is a tangent.)

So, one suggestion: don't let player corpses decay so quickly. Have them show signs of what they died of. This is a suggestion I made before, immediately after a relevant event that staff were actually wished to be involved with, but the suggestion at the time was ignored (I don't know if anything about it has been implemented since, maybe it has).


Either way, this is just one example of just one way that Armageddon is not coded as a roleplaying game by my philosophy of how a roleplaying game should be coded. Anyone who has been playing Armageddon for any length of time will probably be able to come up with a zillion more similar scenarios than make zero sense IC. Just think of all the times that some character has spoken to your character, using cobbled-together nonsense, to express some thinly-veiled meta-fact like "people get bored of their own lives and disappear all the time" to mean "he probably just stored, stop bothering me about what happened to him" -- sometimes even to mask what really happened.

I'm going to go into just three more things, because by now the song is probably half done, depending on how fast a reader you are.

Concrete Idea #1: A way to quit the game while on expeditions with a group. When I played in the T'zai Byn, this was consistently a problem. You have to respect that your players have a real life and might need to abruptly quit, without damning them to being stuck in an inhospitable wilderness and probably dead when they log back in. People will either quit and have to make up some reason for abandoning the group in the wilderness (must suspend disbelief) and maybe die for no reason (must suspend disbelief), or they will go AFK for the remainder of the expedition and not be helping at all and be totally unresponsive and maybe even have to talk OOC about it (jarring to immersion, and must suspend disbelief). Here are a few possible ways to implement this, going from least code-intensive to most code-intensive: a ) cultivate a culture where it's perfectly fine to wish up for a teleport back to base camp before quitting, b ) have a QUIT HOME command much like QUIT OOC that will teleport you automatically back to your clan's main quit room after three real hours, c ) have a 'fate of the group' that consists of present vNPCs -- something like a group NPC object -- that goes along with the group and players can fade in and out of when they quit. That way they can even contribute to the strength of the group, and if the group wipes, so will they.

Concrete Idea #2: A way for RP events to leave OOC offline messages with characters. Let's say for example the clan building was raided by [gang redacted] and completely destroyed, but some poor patron logged in there later. They have no way of finding out IC what happened. Depending on which staff they ask, the answers are going to be different, and they will get confused. Maybe people will make bad decisions about how to handle things that don't actually make any sense. Was their character killed by [gang redacted]?  Pretty much no matter what happens they are going to have to wrangle the situation around in their heads to make sense of it, and suspend disbelief from several angles. This would be solved by staff being able to set an offline message for everyone who logged off in a certain area -- something like: "OOC - This building is burnt down. Your character was not here when it happened. Wish up for a teleport to your location of (reasonable) choice." Then the player is way less confused, maybe even a little excited, and no longer in danger of making any dumb decisions due to being badly informed regarding the OOC problem of not being logged in 24/7.

Concrete Idea #3: Dangerous and uncharacteristic command validation. Let's say your character is in a group of friends, out in the desert, and come across a gith. The leader of the friends is named Fith. Sirina wants to ASSIST FITH! But accidentally, her player types in ASSIST GITH. Whoops, she's dead now -- in a way that made zero sense and absolutely demands suspension of disbelief. This can be fixed by having a check on commands that wouldn't make sense, like someone trying to assist against the group that they're a part of. A simple question like 'are you sure you want to ASSIST GITH?' would be a lifesaver in this situation.

I didn't even mention an in-game courier system or at least leaving verbal messages for a person with NPCs because this has been talked to death already, but it absolutely doesn't make sense that a roleplaying game wouldn't have that feature. In a world with the Way, especially, it just seems ludicrous. Suspension of disbelief again. A few more features that Armageddon would need before I could consider it to have the code of a real roleplaying game would be a system where you gain skills through roleplaying rather than grinding (something like a RPXP system), and an overhaul of combat into something that makes more sense for a roleplaying game (involving tactics, character decisions, and more ability variance) rather than a hack-and-slash diku derivative. A roleplaying game also requires more social stats and skills because otherwise things don't translate as well through a text medium. If Fith tells Sirina, "I'm never gonna give you up, and never gonna let you down," then how does Sirina know if he is telling the truth? The only way is if Fith puts in something like an emoted evil snigger or a tug on his ear or something that has been established as a dishonest tell with Sirina. And in a game with the tagline Murder Corruption Betrayal, very few people are actually telegraphing their lies purposefully in their emotes. Very few people are considering whether their own character (a dumb half-giant probably can't see through lies as easily) would be able to tell, especially if they have any sort of meta-knowledge of the situation. But if you have a charisma stat and a dissembling skill, then people can actually codedly lie, and only people good enough to tell will be able to know if someone is lying or not.

To summarize, the main thing a roleplaying game should attempt to do with its code is to facilitate the expression of a realistic character in an immersive world. You want to try to minimize suspension of disbelief. To do that, you have to be concerned with at least these things: balance the persistence of the world (a player is not logged in constantly, but that doesn't mean their character has disappeared), mitigate the issue of player skills not matching up with character skills (there is no way Sirina would have clumsily jumped between Fith and the Gith, her combat skills were expert level), and lastly: make it so that characters can try to mechanicaly do pretty much anything the player would have the idea to do. This last one is one that Armageddon already does better than any other game I've played -- but it still needs some work regarding basics of communication between characters and general area rumors that should be far more accessible than they are now. Can I ask a beggar NPC outside the tavern if Fith's gone in there recently? Can I try to pay the beggar to tell Fith to screw himself when he walks out? If my charisma isn't high enough will the beggar take my money and not tell Fith anything?

Some people reading this post might think I'm being insane, that there is no way a game can handle all this. Maybe back in the day when I was only playing games I would think the same thing, but I am helping out with coding a game with someone whose vision and opinion I respect 100%, and I know all this and more is definitely doable -- in fact, the game I'm working on (which we don't even consider to be fully finished yet) already has everything I've mentioned here and we've only been working on it for two years. So, I'm way less receptive to the excuse of "we just can't do that with the code" because in my experience, where there's a will, there's a way. What I hear when someone says that is "we don't want to do that because we don't care enough", and that's what I've heard enough of here. Song should be done now.

[Brytta Léofa]

Jerim goes around trying to find out if the [gang redacted] assassinated her, but nope. Maybe [gang redacted] is just really good at it. Jerim becomes a spice addict out of grief and eventually died while trying to get revenge on [gang redacted]'s [redacted leader] in [redacted way].

What actually happened is: Sera was experimenting with cures, drank a poison, puked herself to death all over the apartment, and then her corpse decayed in a matter of hours.

I think anyone who's played Arm long has taken a turn as both Jerim and Sera. (This is bad and a drain on the game.)

A while back a vet told me (paraphrased): you can make so much of Arm if you just...take the shit that happens to your PC seriously. Too many of us experience X, Y, Z in game, kind of shrug it off because it was slightly lame or not what we expected, and then complain that nothing is happening. I think this was very good advice!

However, the predominance of weird/random/lame stuff in game works against this. Your buddy died...and you should care...but your last four buddies died too, and it was always something random, not something interesting. Even in the case of a PK...was it for real, human[oid] motives? Or was it just because "I was there, I had maxed backstab, and <checks background> I'm a baddie?"

So, er, to sum up: environmental danger is good for the game, murder is good for the game, but inscrutable chaos (whether PVP or PVE) is bad for the game.

At your table, the figure in a dark hooded cloak says,
  "Most of my hits are spur of the moment."
lol okay buddy.

[Aruven]

This has been a good read.

I don't think Karma is a really big hit, that's just my opinion. I don't have a problem playing a mundane if by some chance my previous PC didnt last long enough to regen karma.

There's a lot here to unpack and consider. A lot of familiar things that have come up as well time and time again.

I think something to seriously consider, and i've brought this up before, is for staff to consider loosening the limitations around leadership roles so far as their boundaries. I could point specifically to GMH, but it expands well beyond them. Have those IC world reactions, absolutely, but let players run and shake things up. I know this has happened to some degree more as of late, but i'm saying REALLY let players run with it. Whether they dig their own grave, or blow up some longstanding hierarchy. If the roleplay is there, and the players are digging something, stop putting artificial caps on it for the sake of perceived balance. I feel like this would, at a minimum, generate interest in certain areas.

[Halaster]

...despite witnessing many past occassions of concrete ideas being shot down or ignored.

I'd like to start with saying that ideas being shot down or not implemented doesn't mean staff doesn't care, or as you put it "we don't want to do that because we don't care enough".  I'll go out on a limb here and say the more likely explanation is that staff either didn't hear your idea in the first place (I personally probably only read about 10% of the GDB due to volume and time constraints), or considered and didn't think it was sound or in the best interest of the game, or the ROI wasn't worth it, or they didn't have the skill level to make it, or a lot of reasons.  Admittedly, maybe they didn't communicate that to you well enough, and could use some improvement in that area.  I can tell you that we have a lot of ideas thrown at us, many people calling them concrete, even.  It's difficult to respond properly to them all, so if you were outright ignored, you have our apologies for that.

Since you code for another game, I'm sure you're aware that a lot of people have ideas that they want done, but it's simply unrealistic to do them all.   Or their ideas don't align with your vision for your game.  Maybe even you have a lot of ideas of your own, but there's only so much time you can devote to your hobby.  I doubt your lack of implementing them means you don't care about your game.  But rather, you've prioritized what you feel is the best use of your time.

Concrete Idea #1: A way to quit the game while on expeditions ...

'quit ooc' was specifically made for scenarios like this, maybe not enough people know about it?  But I think what you're getting at is a way for them to be able to automatically go back 'home'.  Knee-jerk reaction I'm hesitant to do something like that because I don't like the idea of people getting 'free' travel to avoid danger.  But I also totally understand the sentiment, considering RPT's can take waaay long than most anyone wants them to.  I'm intrigued by the third idea, that your fate is tied to the group's success, but I can also see a ton of complaints coming in "I died and I wasn't even on?! lame!!".  I do agree that something could be improved in this area, maybe the best bet is just to get staff to be more willing to do those transports as needed.  I have seen it done in the past, but it's not consistent because we have no policy either way regarding this.  Maybe we should.

Concrete Idea #2: A way for RP events to leave OOC offline messages with characters...

That's a neat idea.  Leaving an echo/message that people see if they log back in a specific room.  It would need an expiration, I think, because there's a good chance someone's going to forget to remove it and years later someone logs in and is thoroughly confused.  And of course staff would have to know something happened to warrant using it, and then actually use it.  It would definitely need assistance from players like: "wish all Hey could someone put a login echo in this room because I exploded the Sun Runner camp with my mind!".  But overall I do dig the idea in some form, and can see its benefit.

Concrete Idea #3: Dangerous and uncharacteristic command validation...

We do this already in some scenarios, like walking off the shield wall and into certain directions you're required to type like 'east regardless'.  Unfortunately it's not consistently applied.  But there really is no good way to account for "typos", which is essentially what that is.  How would the game know when to give you that check whether or not you really meant to assist gith vs assist fifth? A crazy number of possibilities would have to be coded.  Maybe I lack the skill required to pull this off (quite possible), but this seems to me like a pretty monumental task for a small benefit in the end.  My suggestion would be to use in game and/or client aliases.  Create one like "savefifth" that parses out to 'assist fith' and then use that in combat.  I could maaaybe see a more blanket approach in a toggle-able setting like "safe combat" or something.  Where you individually get prompted for ALL hostile actions you type, and have to turn it on.  But with that we actually don't (to my memory) have any system in the game where it asks you a sort of "Are you sure" and waits for only a response to that question, ignoring all else.  I'd say this one is more of a technical challenge that it's worth and don't see it happening, particularly considering our limited resource of coders.  Is it possible?  Most likely.  Is it worth the effort?  Not in my opinion.

Thanks for the ideas, I particularly like the first two in some form.

[pilgrim]

Thanks Halaster, I appreciate the thoughtful reply and the consideration. I won't get into the nitty-gritty anymore, but a lot of my judgments have to do with the philosophy on what makes a roleplaying game. I'm sure that my vision is not completely identical to anyone else's. And also....

I have no experience or imagination enough to fully comprehend what it's like to staff a game as large and long-running as Armageddon. So, while I may criticize and complain, I am aware that what you and other staff members do for this game is very real work that takes a great deal of care. By not caring I meant more like "I don't care what you want", rather than "I don't care about this game".

To revisit the point of this thread: Recently, venting so much has gotten rid of many of my more bitter and resentful feelings, so I don't have those. And I have people I like who still play Armageddon and would probably like me to play again too. After this post from you I thought about playing again, in the hope that it will be worth it and I won't have to suspend quite so much disbelief in the future versions of the game. But I just can't bring myself to do it, because imagining the reality of the current game with all its still-existing faults, and additionally its general meaningless chaos as mentioned above, is just a big detraction for me. I guess the initial illusion is just gone. Maybe I will come back someday, but not now.

[Bebop]

Thanks Halaster, I appreciate the thoughtful reply and the consideration.

Just wanna say I also appreciate Halaster genuinely trying and replying earnestly.  Cheers.

[Krath]

Thanks Halaster, I appreciate the thoughtful reply and the consideration.

Just wanna say I also appreciate Halaster genuinely trying and replying earnestly.  Cheers.

I echo my Queen's sentiment. Thank you, Halastar.

[Fragmented]

First I'd like to list just a few reasons why I DO play Armageddon:

1) Limitless (more on this later) possibilities. Each new character is an unwritten story and the excitement (for me) felt upon receiving that email from Apache Mud is real - even after more than 200 some-odd characters and approaching two decades of play. This feeling of possibility is why I cannot typically get invested in any "visual" game for more than a few hours before I close it down and return to Armageddon.

2) The feeling of building something (character progression through RP and/or skill advancement) and the real sense of loss when (most) characters die. I personally love "the grind" though I can understand why many players do not.

3) The structure and demand of the game to fill a role and not just be some mindless hack-and-slash automaton (though my character notes will certainly suggest this has been a WIP and I am still in awe of some of the imagery presented by some of the other plays here).

Plenty more, but these are probably the top 3 reasons why I DO play, and I think it's important to start positive and explain that.

Now for the reasons why I sometimes DO NOT feel like playing, and why (in my humble opinion) I think the mud's numbers have steadily declined BEYOND those who have just simply outgrown the game or do not have time for it bc of RL commitments.

1) I dislike the "glass ceiling". That feeling that even if I did everything right (unlikely) I will be unable to achieve X or that if I DID achieve X, I would most likely be forced to store. Things like "becoming a Red/Black Robe", "becoming a Senator", "building a small village by the bootstraps and lording over it", "supreme commander of the Byn", "House Head" etc.

Now, I am sure some may say "These are possible. These have been done before" and if so I won't argue. I have the feeling, real or imagined, that a glass ceiling is there, whether it is or it isn't, and sometimes it is discouraging. Now logically, I know WHY these roles are restricted and logically agree that this level of power in someone's hands can have extreme effects on the game world, but I suppose I want that feeling of truly limitless possibility, even if I understand my characters chances of personally achieving this are so close to zero as to be indistinguishable. I have to believe other players may feel similarly.

Personally, I think it'd be a real treat if the best of the best players (definitely not me) were able to have a profound effect on pieces of the world if enough work was put in (by the player) and that they could actually reap the reward of that work. I would find this encouraging and inspiring toward continuing to improve my own play - a win/win.

2) The spending of Karma. I can't say for certain if this is the sole motivation, but I suspect the spending of karma is intended to keep the player base from being too heavy on some of the heavier karma options. I'll try to keep this short and sweet - while I think there are players that wouldn't care one bit if they had 0/x karma for options, there are others that would muscle through the karma recovery and play something non-ideal while they wait for regeneration and another subset of players who simply won't play at all until they can. Of these three subsets, #2 is probably not as passionate as they would be if they were playing what they wanted to play and #3 isn't playing at all. I know there are many that will disagree - but I'd rather see 60-70 players online with 40 of them being high karma roles than to see 10-20 players online because 25 others are trying to force themselves to play something they aren't passionate about here and there in between doing something else to kill time and 20 more are simply waiting not playing. Don't ask me to prove my ratios - I can't. Just a very broad example.

Again, I understand the logic of trying to maintain a balance of player class/race, but I truly believe it's better to let people play what they want (if they've proven they can handle it via karma award) if it means they will play. I think we'd find that many people will be more passionate about the more mundane roles after they've had their fill of the other stuff, and will naturally balance themselves over time.

3) Restrictions in general on clans - closely related to the above. I understand the logic of trying to maintain a balance, but if a large number of players want to, for example, be hunters for Salarr, screw it - let em. Better to have a bloated Salarri group for however long that lasts and have people playing, than to have fewer people playing at all or playing something they don't want to play and aren't as passionate about.

I think that's enough of a rant for now - so I'll sum it up my suggestions:

1) Build a culture of "If you put in the time, the work, the effort, make the right choices and experience a healthy amount of luck - you can achieve your goals."
2) Get rid of the karma spend - if someone has enough karma to play race x/subclass y - let them play it if that's what has them playing.
3) Similar to the above - let players play where they want/how they want to play, so long as they have created a believable character that fits with the game world.
4) Understand that while rigorous rules/standards are good, too much control can cause something to stagnate. 0 players online is a very easy thing to manage, but can't possibly fit within the vision of the staff, or someone would have just taken a hammer to Ginka a long time ago.

Thanks for reading.

[Brytta Léofa]

How would the game know when to give you that check whether or not you really meant to assist gith vs assist fifth? A crazy number of possibilities would have to be coded.

- Checking whether the target is an aggro NPC would cover a lot of common cases. So would a race check. It doesn't have to be perfect to save most of your whoopsies victims!

- Make the check something you can bypass if you think you're a pro. (E.g.: the message warns you to type "assist dude!" instead of "assist dude"; you can always add the ! to just go for it.)

- Imagine adding teams functionality for those big combat RPTs... "set team allanak" expires when you log out, warns you if you try to assist someone attacking a member of your team.

[Riev]

4) Understand that while rigorous rules/standards are good, too much control can cause something to stagnate. 0 players online is a very easy thing to manage, but can't possibly fit within the vision of the staff, or someone would have just taken a hammer to Ginka a long time ago.

Wanted to chime in that I personally prefer, if not rigorous, OPEN rules/standards/expectations. There is nothing more demoralizing to me (an adult, choosing to spend their time in this VERY niche experience) than suddenly coming up against the fact that I broke a rule I didn't know existed. See: Stealing from an NPC that shouldn't be stolen from, or being able to kill something that you shouldn't have been able to with the skills you had. Suddenly you broke a very big rule, and rather than talk to you about it, it is immediate consequences.

Rules are good. Expectations are good. Be more open about your expectations instead of treating players like obstinate children because you had a bad fucking day.

[Brokkr]

I see a lot of feedback on karma.  If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?

[mansa]

I see a lot of feedback on karma.  If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?

I think the attempt at changing the subclasses, (which was discussed here -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58108.0.html), was a very good attempt at fixing some of that issue.

[Derain]

Brokkr I think maybe don't karma hate the Desert elves like if you have 1 karma you can play that race.

[Lotion]

I see a lot of feedback on karma.  If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?

It would be different. People who only play gicks/karma races would not say anything different. People who play both would not say anything.

[Fragmented]

I see a lot of feedback on karma.  If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?

My humble opinion only - I think this is a good toe-in-the-water measure, but to truly answer your question, yes, my feedback would be more or less the same, because while I would certainly be happy to see such a change, I think the underlying problem I suspect is out there would still remain.

[Patuk]

I see a lot of feedback on karma.  If extended mundane subclasses did not take karma, would this feedback be the same?

I'd say so, yes. Absolutely.

[CirclelessBard]

I think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.

Is it to look for ways to pull back players who leave the game temporarily while waiting for something to happen before rejoining the game? Because if so, the karma timer adjustments will solve that problem.
Or is it to look for ways to pull back players who have left the game indefinitely, as well as pull in new players, because the playerbase has shrunk significantly over the past several years? Because a karma timer adjustment isn't going to fix that problem.

That is not to say that you shouldn't adjust the karma timer. I just think that this thread's main focus on it over the past couple of pages doesn't imply that we aren't also trying to solve problem #2.

[titansfan]

I think the karma timer changes would increase retention and I think that would in turn start to help correct the other issues of population and "boredom".

The parts about the glass ceiling and hidden rules and not clear guidelines are also important but moreso to players who have indefinitely left.