Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Brokkr]

Another idea that we have been discussing has been the role of Extended Subclasses.  Instead of just a moving of Extended Subclasses to zero karma and boosting the skill levels of existing zero karma subclasses, this is more a rationalization of subclasses, as many of the zero karma subclasses map to an extended subclass fairly well.

As we do not have, nor are we going to get, subclass versioning, the idea is to have the zero karma subclass replace the extended subclass it is similar to.  Characters with the extended subclass would get to play them out with it, but it would not be offered as a character creation option for new characters.  Some extended subclasses would remain, as they have no zero karma equivalent.  To be specific:



Custom Crafter is shown going away, that may or may not happen.  Considered a return to Custom Crafts for folks that get a craft skill to Master.

The rationalization means that some combinations of skills currently available via extended subclasses would be going away, replaced with fairly similar sets of skills in a zero karma subclass.  Currently, mock-up looks like this:



There are also some current zero karma subclasses that do not have an equivalent extended subclass, that would need to be updated.  I've also proposed two new subclasses to fill in a couple of gaps:



As you can see, this proposal makes normal subclasses have between 4 and 7 skills, at levels extended subclasses get them.  The only removal of a skill for a current zero karma subclass is pain tolerance for pit-fighters.  This is a bit of a weird skill in that existing characters with pit-fighter would keep their currently level of pain tolerance anyways.

Extended Subclasses of berserker, bruiser, lancer, master trader, rogue, slipknife, grebber, master potter, swordsman and reaver would remain the same, except that they would no longer have a karma requirement.

You may have noticed roughrider is missing.  It becomes the first subclass for an additional proposal.  These would be zero karma subclasses that only get two paired skills.  You'll notice the words master in red.  That is because these two skills would be at the max skill level any guild gets the skill.  Current proposed subclasses of this nature:



This is not an all or nothing proposal, and the decision to even move forwards with it hasn't been made yet.  Feel free to give your feedback.  You can be for part of it and against part of it.  You can comment on which skills you feel should be included or not, but keep in mind the principles around how we would intend to update the subclasses due to lack of versioning.  If you are proposing something that doesn't work within that, it will likely get ignored.

[mansa]

There's a lot of information that I'll need to parse.


First question:

No karma required for any of these subclasses ?

[Ender]

I think this is a fantastic idea as the old subclasses are very much in need of an update.

The one thing I would ask is allowing current players the one time option of changing their sub classes to one of the new ones with the caveat that any skills they got from the change would start at the lowest levels. 

With the heavy changes to the sub classes it really only seems fair they get the option to update their characters if need be.

[mansa]

I was trying to put some subclasses into categories:

Weapon Skills Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Berserker	Chopping Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Reaver	Chopping Weapons	Advanced
	Shield Use	Advanced
	Hack	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Armor Repair	Advanced
Lancer	Piercing Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Bruiser	Bludgeoning Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Aggressor Pit Fighter	Slashing Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Swordsman	Slashing Weapons	Advanced
	Riposte	Advanced
	Parry	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced

Change #1 - Retire Aggressor and bump Pit Fighter up to Aggressor skill levels, remove Pain Tolerance Perk.
I'm okay with that.   Pit Fighter and Aggressor overlapped.

Suggested Change #1 - Give Swordsman "disarm" at Journeyman.   Swordsman feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Reaver "flee" at Advanced.  Reaver also feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #3 - Give Reaver "Shield Use" at Master.

[Brokkr]

Suggested Change #1 - Give Swordsman "disarm" at Journeyman.   Swordsman feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Reaver "flee" at Advanced.  Reaver also feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.

Swordsman - That makes sense.
Reaver - Flee has no real synergy with the core skill set.  I was considering an advanced level to two-handed, which does have some synergy.

[mansa]

Suggested Change #1 - Give Swordsman "disarm" at Journeyman.   Swordsman feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Reaver "flee" at Advanced.  Reaver also feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.

Swordsman - That makes sense.
Reaver - Flee has no real synergy with the core skill set.  I was considering an advanced level to two-handed, which does have some synergy.

I just edited the post to include a suggested change #3, but I'll repost it here:
Suggested Change #3 - Give Reaver "Shield Use" at Master instead of Advanced.

[Brokkr]

I think this is a fantastic idea as the old subclasses are very much in need of an update.

The one thing I would ask is allowing current players the one time option of changing their sub classes to one of the new ones with the caveat that any skills they got from the change would start at the lowest levels. 

With the heavy changes to the sub classes it really only seems fair they get the option to update their characters if need be.

No, we will not be allowing players to change subclasses.  This will already come with a bit of pain for Admin+ Staff.

If you currently have an Extended Subclass that will be going away, you would just keep that Extended Subclass as the power level is equivalent.

If you currently have an Extended Subclass that stays and gets more skills, you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

If you currently have a zero karma subclass, you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

Does not seem to be a parity issue, as at the end of the day everyone will be able to be at the same overall level of skills.  Although some characters will have deprecated mixes of skills, that is not a power parity issue.

[Brokkr]

Suggested Change #3 - Give Reaver "Shield Use" at Master instead of Advanced.

It is already at a crazy good level, it is just hard to see because of some specific wonkiness in the shield use skill. 

Most all of the skills given with these proposed subclasses, outside of the Mastery ones, do not give the maximum value that the best guild gets it at, even when they say Master (there are a handful of exceptions, like language skills).  They are somewhere below that.  With Shield Use, it makes no sense to bump it up so you see "Master" on the skill list but it isn't at the best level of shield use.

[Dresan]

This is good idea. I would love to see this implemented.

The only feedback/suggestion i would have is that you have k1 and k2 options for the same subguilds, the only difference is k1 and k2 options would have higher skill caps. There is a big difference between advanced stealth and (maxed) master stealth in terms of usefulness, same with skills like archery, backstab and sap.

My suggestion is you balanced the subclasses in terms of skill but keep skill caps for k0 as currently extended subclass levels. However,  the skill cap on subclasses would then be boosted for k1 and k2 levels options, each options perhaps having 1 more maxed skill than the other. Of course, k1 or k2 options would consume karma.

I would rather see higher karma players playing raiders with more strong mundane skills, or with other interesting mundane traits then just another raider/magicker.

Lastly, rough rider should have direction sense as the classes who are most likely to pick this subclass would require that skill to make the most use of riding.

[X-D]

So...I finally got through everything. And Really, I am good with Brokkr's OP......one of the better thought out proposals I have seen on here.

As to certain suggestions, like flee for reaver or master over advanced shield use.....Nah, it does not make sense as I see it, Should protector get master shield and maybe even flee, Sure, But agresser subs or reaver...Nah.

[mansa]

Here's another category:

Perception & Languages Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Ministrel Bard	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Listen	Advanced
	Scan	Master
	Watch	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Instrument Making	Master
	Learn Languages Perk
	Steal
Majordomo House Servant	Hide	Advanced
	Pilot	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Listen	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Floristry	Advanced
	City Stealth
	Sleight of Hand
Caravan Guide	Pilot	Advanced
	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Wilderness Quit
	Hitch 2nd Mount
Linguist	Sirihish	Master
	Mirukkim	Master
	Allundean	master
	Northern Accent	master
	Southern Accent	master
	Labyrinthi Accent	master
	Learn Language Perk

Change #1 - Retire Ministrel and Bump Bard up.  Do not have Steal
Change #2 - Retire Majordomo and Bump House Servant up.   Do not have Sleight of Hand.
Caravan Guide - Bump Value to Advanced.
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

[Brytta Léofa]

This is hawtness, Brokkr.

- Mercenary: You have it getting dual wield at master. Consider two-handed at the same level? That's doubling up on skills but I feel like folks typically pick just one or the other.

- Mountaineer: Consider climb at master, maybe with a reduction in something else. The name suggests to me that you're gonna try 3+ room climbs.

- Roughrider: It's cool, but who is it for? Because there's no direction sense it's a dodgy choice for non-wild classes, but wilderness combat classes don't get much of a boost. But maybe it's perfect for somebody's concept and that's fine.
  - Raiders get ride at master instead of advanced, mount taming.
  - Scouts get ride and charge at master instead of advanced.
  - Stalkers get charge at master instead of advanced.

[Brokkr]

Caravan Guide - No Change
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

[mansa]

...

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

I do find it weird that skills that directly correspond to player strength in combat are 'weighted' as much as passive observational skills, in terms of a maximum of number skills a subclass can give.  Observational skills work best together with other passive skills, and the subclass feels weak without peek / sleight of hand / steal.   'Watch' isn't as powerful as disarm or threaten, for example. 

[Brokkr]

This is hawtness, Brokkr.

- Mercenary: You have it getting dual wield at master. Consider two-handed at the same level? That's doubling up on skills but I feel like folks typically pick just one or the other.

- Mountaineer: Consider climb at master, maybe with a reduction in something else. The name suggests to me that you're gonna try 3+ room climbs.

- Roughrider: It's cool, but who is it for? Because there's no direction sense it's a dodgy choice for non-wild classes, but wilderness combat classes don't get much of a boost. But maybe it's perfect for somebody's concept and that's fine.
  - Raiders get ride at master instead of advanced, mount taming.
  - Scouts get ride and charge at master instead of advanced.
  - Stalkers get charge at master instead of advanced.

Mercenary - As two handed riding depends on both the ride skill and shield use/twohanded/dual wield skill, I added dual with as thematic to the subclass to make sure they can for sure get to hands full ride, that also nicely bumped up a little weakness in the class.  I chose dual wield over two handed specifically, and was potentially going to use two handed somewhere else.

Mountaineer - Probably a good suggestion.

Roughridger - Sunslits?  There is like, one area of the gameworld I would never go into without direction sense specifically, and that is weather dependent.  The rest of the world is fine with just sunslits honestly.  Sure, you get turned around now and then travelling solo, but you'll get where you are going eventually.  You may not want to be the leader of a group...but following along after a leader (character, not player) that knows where they are going is probably a good idea in a group.

[Brokkr]

...

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

I do find it weird that skills that directly correspond to player strength in combat are 'weighted' as much as passive observational skills, in terms of a maximum of number skills a subclass can give.  Observational skills work best together with other passive skills, and the subclass feels weak without peek / sleight of hand / steal.   'Watch' isn't as powerful as disarm or threaten, for example.

advanced/journeyman vs advanced/master

[betweenford]

It would be nice if instead of having spearmaking, nomad was a bit styled towards self-sufficiency like wastelander, but with cooking skill and wild-forage(or some other wild oriented skill) at some baseline(advanced+?) to represent more of that wilderness survival.

[Brokkr]

Nomad already have spearmaking, so it isn't going away.  Nomad having spearmaking I think was intended as a big hint that nomad should use....spears.

Also, I think of nomads as Tribals.  In a tribe.  Not oriented to living in the wastes alone, but rather with...their tribe.

Which is why I redid Wastelanders with Bendune.  Those tribals that are more self-sufficient.

Having different subclasses be near carbon copies of each other defeats part of the point of this exercise.

[mansa]

Here's another category:

Crafting Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Master Armorsmith Armormaker	Armor Making	Master
	Armor Repair	Master
	Leather Working	Master
	Tanning	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Haggle
Master Crafter Crafter	Forage	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Basketweaving	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Stonecrafting	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Haggle
	Tanning
	Dyeing
Master Weaponsmith Weaponscrafter	Axe Making	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Knife Making	Master
	Spearmaking	Master
	Swordmaking	Master
	Toolmaking	Advanced
	Haggle
	Fletchery
Master Jeweler Jeweler	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Feather Working	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced
	Toolmaking	Advanced
Master Tailor Tailor	Haggle	Advanced
	Clothworking	Master
	Dyeing	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Journeyman
	Toolmaking	Advanced
	Tanning
Master Chef	Skinning	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness Perk
	Forage Food in City Perk
	Alcohol Tolerance Perk
Master Potter	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Advanced
Apothecary Physician	Brew	Advanced
	Floristry	Master
	Bandage	Advanced
	Bandagemaking	Master
	Forage	Advanced

Change #1 - Retire Master Armorsmith and bump up Armormaker.  Do not have Haggle.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Armorsmith!)
Change #2 - Retire Master Crafter and bump up Crafter.  Do not have Haggle, Tanning, Dyeing.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Crafter!)
Change #3 - Retire Master Weaponcrafter and bump up weaponsmith.  Do not have Haggle, Fletchery.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Weaponsmith!)
Change #4 - Retire Master Jeweler and bump up Jeweler.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Jeweler!)
Change #5 - Retire Master Tailor and bump up Tailor.  Do not have Tanning.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Tailor!)
Change #6 - Add Alcohol Perk to Master Chef.  Add Forage to Master Chef.  Add Direction Sense to Master Chef.
No change to Master Potter
Change #7 - Retire Apothecary and Bump up Physician.   Do not have Master brew like Apothecary.



Suggested Change #1 - Give Dyeing to Master Armorsmith.   They should be able to dye their armors different colors.
Suggested Change #2 - Remove Club Making from Crafter - Give Dyeing and Tanning to Crafter.
Club Making doesn't make sense for a general crafter.  They should be able to dye things, and convert raw leather scraps into workable leather.  It's a "generic crafter" subclass, right?  A catch-all?
Suggested Change #3 - Give Fletchery to Weaponscrafter.  Weaponcrafters should be able to make arrows.
Suggested Change #4 - Give Tanning and Leatherworking to Tailor.  Tailors should be able to make me leather boots.   Remove Haggle.
Tailors should be able to make bags and boots and cloaks, and some of them fall into the leatherworking crafting skills.   Haggle would be too rich with the additional crafting skills.
Suggested Change #5 - Remove Master Potter, it's a duplicate of Crafter now.
Suggested Change #6 - Give "Master" Brew instead of "Advanced" to new Physician.   People chose Apothecary to get Master Brew specifically.

[Ender]

I think the two skill masteries are missing some vital synergy for them to be applicable and desirable.  I think they could get one more skill that maxes at journeyman level that works together well with their mastery

Roughrider - As this is about traversal it would really benefit from direction sense.  Roughrider feels really weak for any class that already gets ride, and almost useless for classes that don't get direction sense.

Wild Stealth - Direction Sense for the same reasons as Roughrider

City Stealth - Could benefit from peek, sleight of hand, or lock picking for when they get stuck in people's apartments after shadowing them in.

Poison Mastery - Could benefit from throw, blowgun use, or archery.  Something to use their poisons on.  I would lean more towards blowgun use as it fits more with the poisoner theme.

Skinning Mastery - Leather working they are masters of making leather, so it makes sense they should be able to do something with it.

Archery Mastery - Crossbow use they can make bolts, so it makes sense they can fire it from a crossbow.

Scan Mastery - This is a strange one because it's honestly a worse version of Wastelander.  Listen at Mastery does not make up for all the abilities Wastelander gets.  Maybe hunt would make it different enough from Wastelander to be appealing?

[Brokkr]

Mansa, you keep making mistakes.  Master Chef, for instance, would not be listed out if there were no changes.   I even listed out the subclasses that have no changes.

And please, if you are going to do bulk suggestions, provide the reasoning.

[Dresan]

I might have misunderstood some of the intent here with two skill subclasses classes. Still a good idea still though.

I think the two skill masteries are missing some vital synergy for them to be applicable and desirable.  I think they could get one more skill that maxes at journeyman level that works together well with their mastery

I agree with this, I would bump them up to three skills. City sneak could get listen, then you could remove scan mastery all together. 

[Delirium]

you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

Then why not simply allow a subguild change?

I'm vastly in favor of updating subguilds and I'll need time to more coherently formulate feedback, though I think Mansa and Ender are both offering great suggestions. But not permitting players to update their characters, ESPECIALLY after a change like this, feels unfair and inconsiderate.

Players are trying to craft stories, and in a MUD those stories often need coded skills to back them up, and when you change skills around you're changing the story on them without giving them the opportunity to adjust so that the character feels right to them. I remember being stuck with an "old class" when the new classes went in and not being allowed the option of switching to one of the new classes, and though I stuck with the character for sake of playing out their storyline, it felt immensely unfair to be stuck with an old class when a similar "new class" would have both suited them better as a character and far outstripped my current class in sheer utility.

Saying hard no and forcing characters to remain grandfathered and stuck with their old classes and subs through changes like these only makes players feel embittered and left behind. If they want to stick with what they've got, great, but for the long-term characters and for the players who play for story and would like to be able to evolve, it's demotivating. Give us player agency to decide whether we want to update or stay with what we have and support that, because you will already be going through the effort of updating many of our skills anyway. It is NOT going to be that much more effort in the long run and it will vastly impact the morale of your playerbase to be given that agency rather than to yet again be told "your story isn't worth it."

[Delirium]

I might have misunderstood some of the intent here with two skill subclasses classes. Still a good idea still though.

I think the two skill masteries are missing some vital synergy for them to be applicable and desirable.  I think they could get one more skill that maxes at journeyman level that works together well with their mastery

I agree with this, I would bump them up to three skills. City sneak could get listen, then you could remove scan mastery all together.

This in particular I agree with (Ender's suggestions, and Dresan's further addition).

[Brokkr]

Give me an example of a player being left behind with this change that would need a subclass change to not be left behind.

And not an example where it is just a couple of skills difference between an Extended Subclass going away and it's replacement.