Feedback on playing and log-ins

[dumbstruck]

I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.

What do you mean when you say 'become weird'? Do you mean start getting descriptions like 'sticky' or 'rock hard' or do you mean having unexpected effects?

Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient.  I don't mind food.  Food is plentiful but I can see  how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.

Was this pinches and grains in a pipe or the like, or larger quantities?

Oily in some cases, (I think pinches), hard in other cases (I think tubes), but since it was two different things, I figured 'weird' was an okay generalized umbrella. Consequently, I have stopped engaging with spice near as much, even though I love the hell out of spice related rp. Why waste coins on it? When every moment you are logged in and not using the item is one more moment it's losing it's usefulness it's either an incentive not to engage with it or to not be logged in if it's a flavor item you have and are trying to not just have go away on you.

[Brokkr]

The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues.  No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.

A good craftsman never blames his tools.
If you can't imagine a world where you can selectively purge things from a save room then create it.

We are not going to manually purge stuff like this over 1000s of save rooms when making stuff decay is efficient.

[Brokkr]

I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.

What do you mean when you say 'become weird'? Do you mean start getting descriptions like 'sticky' or 'rock hard' or do you mean having unexpected effects?

Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient.  I don't mind food.  Food is plentiful but I can see  how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.

Was this pinches and grains in a pipe or the like, or larger quantities?

Oily in some cases, (I think pinches), hard in other cases (I think tubes), but since it was two different things, I figured 'weird' was an okay generalized umbrella. Consequently, I have stopped engaging with spice near as much, even though I love the hell out of spice related rp. Why waste coins on it? When every moment you are logged in and not using the item is one more moment it's losing it's usefulness it's either an incentive not to engage with it or to not be logged in if it's a flavor item you have and are trying to not just have go away on you.

Or an incentive to routinely use it and buy more, rather than save it for when you really need it.

[dumbstruck]

Thing is, I never really need a tube of tho? It's fun to roleplay with, but if it's gonna just randomly turn into an unusable rock in my pocket, there's much more incentive to go to an npc about it than a pc (or not use it at all) because then at least I know I'm gonna have a better time with the timer and going to get only a pinch as close to when I am going to use it as possible. I can't imagine anyone deciding to engage more with an item that they don't actually need just because it disappears faster, but I'm not the one with access to those numbers.

[cali]

I have had spice become weird on me before since the change and as a result have engaged with it less because I would rather not waste time and coins on something that's going to become useless on me just because I was logged in and it's on a timer.

What do you mean when you say 'become weird'? Do you mean start getting descriptions like 'sticky' or 'rock hard' or do you mean having unexpected effects?

Well it's just my character uses spice for practical purposes. By the time they need it, it has decayed and is useless to me. So I can't keep spice on me. Which would be convenient.  I don't mind food.  Food is plentiful but I can see  how it could be annoying trying to prep a large amount of cooking for RPT. Maybe items you actually carry on your person shouldn't decay as some sort of compromise. But you can't just stockpile it.

Was this pinches and grains in a pipe or the like, or larger quantities?

Oily in some cases, (I think pinches), hard in other cases (I think tubes), but since it was two different things, I figured 'weird' was an okay generalized umbrella. Consequently, I have stopped engaging with spice near as much, even though I love the hell out of spice related rp. Why waste coins on it? When every moment you are logged in and not using the item is one more moment it's losing it's usefulness it's either an incentive not to engage with it or to not be logged in if it's a flavor item you have and are trying to not just have go away on you.

Or an incentive to routinely use it and buy more, rather than save it for when you really need it.

If it is used for practical purposes when needed, how is using it when you don't need it and buying more helping anything? So you have to constantly use spice so you always have fresh spice. This is a very bad take.

[Brokkr]

Cause that is how addiction tends to work.

Although this is a good reminder to bump ideas on changing how spice bonus works, as well.

[Lotion]

The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues.  No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.

A good craftsman never blames his tools.
If you can't imagine a world where you can selectively purge things from a save room then create it.

We are not going to manually purge stuff like this over 1000s of save rooms when making stuff decay is efficient.

Can you reasonably make various hoarded crafting materials decay?

[mansa]

The accumulation of spice/food in save rooms created game performance issues.  No, this couldn't effectively be handled by manually purging, unless it is ok that we purge the whole room without regard for everything else in it.

A good craftsman never blames his tools.
If you can't imagine a world where you can selectively purge things from a save room then create it.

We are not going to manually purge stuff like this over 1000s of save rooms when making stuff decay is efficient.

Can you reasonably make various hoarded crafting materials decay?

There's a couple things that the game does to prevent a massive number of items to be stockpiled in save rooms:

a) limit the room size
This is the first hardcoded limit that prevents items from being stockpiled.  It takes a look at the weight of objects, and then calculates a sum, and makes sure nothing larger than a set value can be stored in the room.
However, this doesn't work with 'small' objects, where their weight is less than 1 - it's not the arbitrary size of the room that causes the game to have problems, but the individual total number of objects in the room itself.

b) items that are classified as 'tiny' or less than a weight of 1 - see if there is a reasonable justification to prevent these objects from being stockpiled
Feathers is a good example:
You have the ability to craft 5 feathers into a bundle.  This reduces 5 individual items into 1 individual item.
Herbs have also been stockpiled, and they can weigh less than 1 - create a mechanical aspect that would destroy the individual items over time, reducing the total number of objects in the room.



Let's give it another example:
The code takes 0.001 seconds per object to "save to disk".
This is made up number of a mechanical limitation of physics and writing electronics.
If the room has 10,000 objects, that would take -> 10 seconds to save that room.

That means the game is writing to disk for 10 seconds for that one room.  It's not being stored to memory - it's a SAVE room, so it's being saved externally.

[creeper386]

That means the game is writing to disk for 10 seconds for that one room.  It's not being stored to memory - it's a SAVE room, so it's being saved externally.

Now I don't actually know how the code is written, but this also assumes all the data is being written to disk at once, and no attempt to keep track of what has changed, and only update differences. And even then, databases are incredibly efficient at writing data and might already handle this stuff.

[Brytta Léofa]

Now I don't actually know how the code is written, but this also assumes all the data is being written to disk at once, and no attempt to keep track of what has changed, and only update differences. And even then, databases are incredibly efficient at writing data and might already handle this stuff.

The whole zone is probably being saved at once, and since there are only a handful of save zones that means you're saving literally like 25% of the save rooms in the world at once and pausing the game while that happens.

Naively, I'd say you should replace the save code, and save/restore rooms on an individual basis with, like, binary protobuf so you can save them individually as they change instead of in a batch. With the side benefit of finally getting the "save flag" behavior that folks have always assumed existed. But obviously if it were as easy as saying it, it would be done already.

[SpyGuy]

Been on break for a while.  A lot of it is real life and schedule conflicts.  Last couple times I had a character there was enough stuff going on to get involved but not enough to keep me invested when I had less free time.

I've questioned some decisions that have been made by staff before. Since you asked here's the short version:

- The game feels too top heavy and doesn't have the playerbase to support numerous leadership PCs.  (No easy fix here without making someone angry but I would have never brought nobles back to Tuluk.  It was a missed opportunity not to create a whole new social order that wasn't so top-heavy)
 
- Huge barriers to interaction when the player count is low like being offpeak. People are spread out and you sometimes need to get creative to even justify interaction due to IC status or culture.  (I think it was a mistake to remove player housing from Luir's.  It's the most central settlement and should be a hub, especially with Tuluk open)

- Code gets repetitive if you're trying to train up a PC, it's just not that fun if the interaction isn't there.  (I'd happily spend my karma to skip ahead a little.)

- The tone of the game is also off, sometimes being a mundane commoner, especially a low class one, feels like you're in the minority of PCs.  Which is a shame, that's the role any new player will first experience and should be considered the core of what most PCs are. (I'd focus staff plots on things that mundanes can interact with in some significant way. My uninformed take on the state of the game is that current plots are moving in the opposite direction)

- Redo the rules on some clans, especially GMH.  People have the most opportunity for fun when they're allowed some freedom to shape a role or how a group is organized.  (They're on the clan boards so maybe they've changed but the GMH hunter rules were needlessly complicated and not good.  My take is to treat PC crews as their own business unit, let the leader decide on how it's organized (numbers of hunters vs crafters vs other) and just keep a hard cap of 6 or so total employees.)

I also decided the reply I got from staff that 'things are still open to change, it takes time' was unsatisfactory. At the end of the day the only vote I've got is with my feet. I wish Arm well and will probably log back in when I have tons of free time but I've found in the past that stepping away for a while makes it feel fresh again.

[Malken]

I also decided the reply I got from staff that 'things are still open to change, it takes time' was unsatisfactory. At the end of the day the only vote I've got is with my feet. I wish Arm well and will probably log back in when I have tons of free time but I've found in the past that stepping away for a while makes it feel fresh again.

Maybe Armageddon will be amazing again when we all retire and all the vets have time to play again. Looking forward to RP'ing with all of you again from the nursing home in 25~ish years!

[Krath]

Some of the things that has discouraged me from playing, when I do have free time, are the following:

1. The feeling that something is off with the game. The Lore, scare factor, rich documentation and history that drew me to the game in 1999 have been neutered. Yes, I know and admittedly, have no problem throwing hundreds of hours into the game focusing on skills and building a team. That being said, a lot of that was driven by being able to make a strong mundane pc be able to fight the Skeletors, Liches, weretembos, undead, Servants of the Dragon, Echri,and plainsman of the times of the past. There isn't that anymore. It is just PVP. Yaraya was a huge opportunity that I feel just feel flat.

2. The Byn. I love this fucking clan. However, they are mercenaries that can only do really two kinds of jobs. It is ludicrous to me that you cannot pay the byn to hunt, kill, and skin for the merchants, simply because staff say so.

3. Spice and Food Decay: everything I feel has already been said.

4. No staff driven plots - PCs die and everyone's time has been wasted when it's player run.

[Brytta Léofa]

My interest in Arm comes and goes.

I think of Arm engagement in terms of two factors: (1) obsession and (2) return (as in "rate of return"). Obsession is the fun Arm gives you when you're not playing Arm--you're thinking about character concepts, imagining scenes, planning your PC's next moves. Return is how much fun you actually have while logged in.

I played a lot (for me, anyway) this last winter into early summer; was enjoying a PC I had and interactions with adjacent people. It did start to get stressful as my PC became "successful" and I couldn't just moop around doing my own thing.

Currently I have a PC that is fun to play, but various factors are sapping my Obsession:

- RL: I have much less time to play uninterrupted...in May I was on late night duty with a mostly-sleeping infant.

- RL: also a more normal schedule means that spare time is easier to spend on non-Arm projects.

- IC: People dying on an epic scale. I know, welcome to Armageddon, but seriously seriously.

- OOC: ...Look, with Arm there's always something to be pissed off about, whether more or less legitimately.

And on the Rate of Return side, the sad fact is that, even at Arm's best, my average Arm play session is...kind of boring. It's improved by playing a PC with lots of freedom of action, by being in a social center (so more interactions), or by playing the right kind of magicker (so less stamina regen time vs exploration). But I find that fun RP and adrenaline highs represent a small percentage of the time I play.

So, with my obsession currently on the wane, whenever I get a slight urge to play I tell myself: "Arm is a waste of your time."

Crackeddon etc.; I'm sure I'll get obsessed again pretty soon. You know there's a half-elf in Ginka's guff with my name on it.

[lostinspace]

Major things that have led me to playing less.

-No mage primary guilds. My typical pattern was alternating between mundane/nonmundane to keep skill grind and interactions interesting. As part of this I would also frequently change my location of play so I wouldn't be interacting with the same PCs I played with previously. The major thing here is that with the mage combos/synergies broken up, your best path to being a badass solo gick is to train heavily with weapons. Which isn't bad on it's own, but it does mean I'm on the weapon skill grind for every PC I've made in months.

-Utility split on primary classes. I understand that the idea was to force players together to interact, but with lower player numbers or a solo wilderness character it just makes life a pain. Warrior used to get skinning to high apprentice or low journeyman, been too long to recall exactly, but why does a wilderness PC like raider not have at least the basics of skinning figured out?

-Karma risk aversion. Typically I'm excited to try something new, but at the same time horrified that if I fuck up it's 2-3 months before I have another shot. So I play things safe to start, safe gets boring, and then I just stop logging in altogether. Then in a few months I remember Arm, and feel comfortable playing how I want because if I die it's not a 3 month wait just to try something new or different.

Those are the major ones for me.

[LindseyBalboa]

I think some changes make things more "realistic" but not more fun.

For example: all the maintenance changes to spice, cures, and poisons. Now I need to spend a lot more time maintaining these things instead of role playing or having fun, instead of once in a while.

Setting aside poisons/cures/herbs as new changes, have you (or anyone else) noticed problems from spice degradation? Are you actually losing out on spice you were/would have used, or is the issue the psychic pressure of the degradation timer, or something else?

Similarly, has food degradation caused issues that lead to unfun, rather than more fun or something basically fun-neutral?

This is a general question, sparked by the above quote but not aimed at the poster.

I 100% have had spice degrade on me. It's very annoying. I have used spice frequently on any character I have had that uses spice - as most of them were elves, a lot of them did. Reaching in to find your spice is rock hard is a nuisance at best that doesn't really spark much RP. I even once had kemen someone gifted me, and I put it away to save it in my kit and it was nil when I went in for it; actually a lot quicker than I would've thought, I remember thinking.

Food degradation is what it is, imo.

(Edited to add: That being said, spice decay is what it is, too. But I think it's definitely negative, and I have played people that sold spice. It's just too short for a player that is logged in often - especially if that time was spent idling and waiting for RP.)

[betweenford]

There's definitely alot of factors that push people to quit and leave and whatnot but sometimes a really big factor is the issue where you simply can't find anyone else to interact with. Especially in places like Allanak which is "meant" to be the "main" city there have been periods in recent memory where you could have spent actual hours waiting and watching for someone to come by the local tavern, and people wouldn't even be sneaking inside the Gaj. Personally that's a major turnoff to city play when it happens, and its important to recognize why it might happen even though there's other players strewn around the city. The T'zai Byn for as thematic as it can be... when staff get a little too schedule-happy or a sergeant does, people literally get pulled away from the rest of Allanak proper for something like 80% of the in game day, and are unwilling to visit empty taverns so after enough times of that happening... they just... dont. When people get too silo'd, you're not gonna get old players to really show up or new players to stick around.

Stagnation and attempts to shift the playerbase also matter. Luir's Outpost which used to be a decent hub for interaction is now usually pretty empty when there isn't a massive crew riding through. People loved Luir's Outpost and despite what seems to me to be apparent player agency it still lacks things like housing. Some people who play this game have no desire to play around the majority of city-politics or templars or nobles for one reason or another; and now they can barely play the game in Luir's Outpost as an independent. Sure, it was sacked, but you'd figure after however long since that has happened there would have been some major repairs and scavenging done by the virtual population, and people's plots supported. I've had plots where I told staff I was going to do this, did this, did that, etc with minimal staff involvement to change something, died to unrelated things and had the earlier stuff abandoned despite actual hours spent in multiple sessions trying to accomplish something. Request closed, find out nothing changed later, bummer. Stuff like that pushes alot of people not to try anymore.

Even stuff like GMH can be glamorized to be alot more than it could be. You hear about all these stories about what the merchants used to get up to, what they did and accomplished, and you get in and what you can accomplish is often a tiny sliver of that that wouldn't be touched by any improvement in rank or in-house trust due to staff policy, and so when compared to your predecessors, you're left behind. Can't move an argosy(read, the fortress on wheels) without a meager escort of five people to example, and you can't hire or use the in-house guards your merchants' cartel-family is famous for having, and hunters were closed until recently, and extremely limited in scope compared to what they used to be. Sure, it means you hire the T'zai Byn, but it leaves your capacity to move around as the role very much a pale shadow of your predecessors. Apply this to nobles too, same thing, apply this to templars who on a negative note cannot within reason snag up like 6 npc soldiers to provide interaction a sorcerer keeps demanding when pc populations are low. Makes people feel powerless when they hop into a role.

Not gonna get too into the can of worms that templars can often be, but it is also important to me to say that often times it feels like templars are often too heavy handed in the way they pursue certain plots. Or act in ways that drive people away from the game itself, or playcenters until that specific templar is gone. I think the old nobility helpfile applies perfectly well here, and while templars are inherently killers, beyond the scope of killing... it can feel like sometimes its more a power fantasy thing and a desire to win situations as they arise(even if they've already 'won) and the oppressiveness becomes OOC instead of IC.

OOCly, the noble role is intended to enhance the game, and players who accept such a role should agree that they will play in a way that contributes to the game. That includes initiating events, providing employment for other PCs, cooperating with staff requests, etc. While it is acceptable to make another PC's life difficult for IC reasons, the focus of a noble's existence should not be harassing commoners, trying to enslave people who don't bow, or using NPCs to pkill.

[Kialae]

I've been seeing a GMH sponsored role pop up about once a month lately. It sounds to me like there's a problem with the role. It's one of four things:
1. it's boring for whatever reason ('I hate being a glow crystal vendor')
2. it's stressful for whatever reason ('a templar is breathing down my neck for not constantly appealing to their wishes')
3. it's unengaging for whatever reason ('I can't find employees because nobody's playing crafters/not wanting to join the clan')
4. It's uninspiring for whatever reason ('I can't get an escort to fulfil my goals or obligations! Where are all the mercenaries?')

[HazelHomewrecker]

I've been seeing a GMH sponsored role pop up about once a month lately. It sounds to me like there's a problem with the role. It's one of four things:
1. it's boring for whatever reason ('I hate being a glow crystal vendor')
2. it's stressful for whatever reason ('a templar is breathing down my neck for not constantly appealing to their wishes')
3. it's unengaging for whatever reason ('I can't find employees because nobody's playing crafters/not wanting to join the clan')
4. It's uninspiring for whatever reason ('I can't get an escort to fulfil my goals or obligations! Where are all the mercenaries?')

(this isn't a sassy response, just my take on the very-clear issue you brought up)

I'll try my best to keep it as non-IC-revealing as possible, but:

Being in a GMH sponsored role is incredibly stressful for some first-timers, because the reality of it is vastly different to whatever expectations you have going into it. Not to mention, you're trying to narrowly navigate the political platform of whichever city-state you're in while also being a subservient vending machine who can pay exorbitant fees to whichever corrupt person or group is trying to squeeze out of you day-1. It feels entirely too cumbersome when other players are breathing down your neck, and even if you're playing a corrupt character, give these folks some time to breathe and maybe we'll have someone who actually stays in the position.

[Halaster]

lacking many coded mechanics that are just basic must-haves for roleplay games in my opinion
...
Anyway, I hope this helps?

It would be much more helpful if you gave examples, please.  Not picking on you specifically, but when people say things like "Armageddon needs a better crafting system", but doesn't give ideas or examples, or when they say "Armageddon is outdated, they need to modernize" with no specifics, or when they say "there's things lacking it should have" but don't tell us what they think those are, there isn't really much we can do.  In those scenarios, I think "Ok, crafting system isn't to their liking.  What is?" but I have no answers.

I know you said a lot more in your post than that, but I notice that trend a lot.  People seem appalled that we don't have something better, but don't offer ideas or solutions.  Not saying you haven't personally before, but hopefully you get my point.

[Halaster]

I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.

I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem.  I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.

Got any specific examples of a better system?  Would love to hear them.

[mansa]

lacking many coded mechanics that are just basic must-haves for roleplay games in my opinion
...
Anyway, I hope this helps?

It would be much more helpful if you gave examples, please.  Not picking on you specifically, but when people say things like "Armageddon needs a better crafting system", but doesn't give ideas or examples, or when they say "Armageddon is outdated, they need to modernize" with no specifics, or when they say "there's things lacking it should have" but don't tell us what they think those are, there isn't really much we can do.  In those scenarios, I think "Ok, crafting system isn't to their liking.  What is?" but I have no answers.

I know you said a lot more in your post than that, but I notice that trend a lot.  People seem appalled that we don't have something better, but don't offer ideas or solutions.  Not saying you haven't personally before, but hopefully you get my point.

My problem with crafting is that the 'discoverability' of recipes is incredibly hard, and it should be that the acquisition of raw crafting items should be the hardest part.

I wrote about some suggestions here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57472.0.html

[Lotion]

I dream of the day where I create a script to take a list of available ingredients and then sends inputs to the mud to see what recipes can be made from those ingredients brute force style. It seems like the game is meant to encourage this sort of "experimentation".

[CirclelessBard]

I think the poll running in this folder shows that there is a nonzero number of people not playing due to the karma timer.

I submit that the karma timer might have been the wrong solution to a problem.  I would like to suggest some A/B testing to find a replacement solution that doesnt reduce player interest.

Got any specific examples of a better system?  Would love to hear them.

From my perspective, it's hard to give concrete suggestions because it's hard to have an idea of what staff are willing/able to do. Maybe staff can provide some ideas on what they're looking to do. Are you looking for code change ideas? Are you looking for ideas on how to change the game's "culture"? Because I feel like if we're trying to answer the original question (which, to paraphrase, is essentially "why are players playing less?") the solution is not going to come from modernizing a single system of a multifaceted game, no matter how good the suggestion is. At the same time, it can be hard to give a suggestion that can't be accepted for whatever reason.

So I guess my question is: in the long run, what are staff willing to do to bring  the playerbase back up? Was this discussion spurred by staff already having some ideas, or are staff collecting ideas from us before having their own discussion? If staff discussion has started, what ideas mentioned so far are ideas that you all consider implementable? That would give us a good idea on what we can suggest further.

[Wday]

I am going to say this and know it will sound a lot like Staff defense.  But trust me when I say Staff and I have bumped heads over things many many many times.  There is one staff member that we watch each other like HAwkS, but I can understand the reasons. But that is NOT the games issue with less players.  Frankly the issue in game is the PLAYERS mainly myself!  Half our gaming is or seems like to be small role play on massive amount of idle things. YES there is new crafts and stuff which is great.  But lately Arma seems more on building up things we already have and less in story and actions. I can tell no matter what outlandish plots or anything a character builds the players seem to not even try to bite the bait, as if saying NO Code no adventure cause Staff isnt there.  Without blowing my cover I can say over the last 7 years here. Myself have tried to push clan and partner plots only to hear players turn down and wait for a worldly event, otherwise we sit in wagons or tents and watch for someone to do something. We all are Arma we all have a part in the story and wold here.  Lets drop the cringe and go for some amazing stories here before our characters and our real bodies run out of time in life!

ps. As for the Staffer who I said we watch each other.  Yes we bump heads but you know I love your passion put into the game and do respect your input and our fussing it does help me keep grounded. and  Yeah I maybe..MAYBE wrong here and there lol..

What I think would help some is.

1. Add more power to each Story Teller!  Give them the powers to open plots for their clans. (let them make clan plots and events more often as they are able to put the time in themselves.

2. Poison and cures!  Keep the cures cause seems fun once learned and just make poisons very rare to get. Surely there is a way to code set a plant or beast to give out only 1% of poison? (Not everyone and their cousins needs taints or should be able to without hard effort)

3. Magick I am on the fense with.. I like magicks but the subclass seems to take magick more into the world.  wish we could reverse the class and subclass there maybe.

4. last one is. We all need to not be scared of trying out stories!  We all can put countless hours into a hair comb craft so lets work on gaming ideas!

3.