Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[mansa]

I'll give my review here:
Note: I have put the subclasses into my own preferences of categories that I created, and it's not anything to do with how it is designed - it's just my groupings of how I make sense of it.

Weapon Skills Subclasses
Reaver
- chopping weapons will be low advanced and not master
Berserker
- chopping weapons will be low advanced and not master
Bruiser
- bludgeoning weapons will be low advanced and not master
Lancer
- piercing weapons will be low advanced and not master
Pit-Fighter
- slashing weapons will be low advanced instead of low master
Swordsman
- riposte will be high advanced and not master
- slashing weapons will be low advanced and not master
- two handed will be low advanced and not high advanced
The reduction of the end-level proficiencies of weapon skills seems the major balance issue here.   I assume that is because there are talks of bringing back 'full guild magickers', and they would be able to take these subclasses, and it would make these choices the preferred choice.  I assume the intent is to "prevent swordsman + full guild mage" to be as overpowered as I think it could possibly be.  In other words - no change to the current weapon skills subclasses.


Secondary Combat Skills Subclasses
Marksman
- archery will be high advanced and not master
- crossbow use will be high advanced and not master
- blowgun use will be high advanced and not master
- sling use will be high advanced and not master
Archer
- bow making will be high advanced and not master
- fletchery will be high advanced and not master
Bounty Hunter
- sap will be low advanced and not low master
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
- hunt will be high advanced and not master
Guard
- guarding will be high advanced and not master
- parry will be high advanced and not master
Thug
- bash will be high advanced and not master
- flee will be high advanced and not master
Similar to the "nerfs" for the weapon skills subclasses, this seems to be aimed at reducing the effectiveness of "full guild mage + subclass" in combat.   In other words - no change to current Marksman, with a buff to current Archer, Bounty Hunter, Guard, and Thug.


Exploration Classes
Mercenary
- dual wield will be low advanced and not master
Outlaw
- armor repair will be high advanced and not master
Master Chef
- forage will be high advanced and not master
Hunter
- skinning will be low master and not high master
- hunt will be high advanced and not master
Grebber
- sling use will be low advanced and not high advanced
- climb will be high advanced and not master
I'm fine with these changes.  Hunter and Grebber seemed very attractive, and still are.


Skullduggery Subclasses
Con Artist
- hide will be high advanced and not master
- listen will be high advanced and not master
- haggle will be high advanced and not master
Slipknife
- sleight of hand will be high advanced and not master
Rogue
- climb will be high advanced and not master
Thief
- sleight of hand will be high advanced and not master
- peek will be high advanced and not master
Poisoner
- cooking will be low advanced and not high advanced
- floristry will be low advanced and not high advanced
I'm fine with these changes.  Rogue losing climb can be counteracted with climbing gear.


Perception & Languages Subclasses
Bard
- listen will be high advanced and not master
House Servant
- hide will be low advanced and not high advanced
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
- listen will be high advanced and not master
- cooking will be high advanced and not master
Master Trader
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
Caravan Guide
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
Nomad
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
Wastelander
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
Pilot dropping to high advanced is upsetting, but I'm quickly over it.  Direction sense getting reduced to the current levels is .. okay, I guess.  Sunslit items can boost it up so you never fail.


Crafting Subclasses
Crafter
- value will be high advanced and not master
- toolmaking will be advanced and not master
- forage will be low advanced and not high advanced
- removing club making
Tailor
- dyeing  will be high advanced and not master
- tanning will be high advanced and not master
- toolmaking will be high advanced and not master
Weaponscrafter
- removing fletchery
Jeweler
- value will be high advanced and not master
- feather working will be high advanced and not master
Forester
- skinning will be journeyman instead of advanced
- hunt will be journeyman instead of advanced
Custom Crafter
- drawing will be high advanced instead of master
I'm okay with losing Club Making, since I've argued earlier in the thread to remove it.  "Crafter" and "Master Potter" always seemed weird, and I'm glad it finally got merged to a better subclass.
Weaponscrafter losing Fletchery is the only subclass change I'm not satisfied with.   I assume it's because you can make too many # of crafts and dominate the market without actually being a dedicated merchant class.   If that is the case - Suggestion: Perhaps split it into two? "Large Weapons Crafter" and "Small Weapons Crafter"

[Dresan]

A bit late to this party but I want to make a couple points:

1. I hate to say this, because I do like to see these type of changes to the game but I think focusing on the subclasses before working on the classes themselves will cause more work later in the road. The subclasses are supposed to support and round out the classes, but when you have classes like stalker or raider that work so well just about anything, things can get a bit skewed. By fixing/updating the classes first we'll be able to adjust the subclasses to better support the mundane gaming experience. 

2. I regret not supporting the two skill master sub-guilds. The reason being is that I rather be good at just two or three skills, rather than be mediocre in many. I am hoping to see these smaller subclasses back as they add another cool element to the game.

3. All the mage/touched subclasses are enticing, I don't think mundane classes can compete in terms of character power or the roleplay potential it gives a character.  However, I think mundane subclasses, should give a bit more in terms of convenience. With some exception to the weapon/backstab/sab skills, all subclass should probably start the skills at max at their level cap, which would better reflect them being older hobbies from a character's past.

4. sneak/hide for sub guilds should be at high advanced, the same level as they were for old infiltrator levels. That level worked half decent on elves with exceptional agility. 

[Brokkr]

1. I hate to say this, because I do like to see these type of changes to the game but I think focusing on the subclasses before working on the classes themselves will cause more work later in the road. The subclasses are supposed to support and round out the classes, but when you have classes like stalker or raider that work so well just about anything, things can get a bit skewed. By fixing/updating the classes first we'll be able to adjust the subclasses to better support the mundane gaming experience. 

Main guild review/overhaul (Producer Team)

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  We have nearly all the work done for the subclasses. For the above, we are still talking among the Producers if the current classes are fulfilling the needs that A) they were put in place to address in combination with B) what the vision is for the current set of Producers.  So not really what I posted before about Guilds.

[Cordon]

I like the idea of past events giving skill perks to classes/sub-class combos but I feel that having the initial boost to skills be on a set ratio with age.
Start your human crafter out at 25, crafting skills start at apprentice. 40 years old the start at journeyman.. Start you PC out at 55-60 your crafting skills start out at advance (never capped out tho)

[Dresan]

On a slight tangent then, I still believe making mundane options more enticing is really the best way to combat mage popularity :

I would love to be able chose any mundane skills I want and allow me to train them to max for the following karma:

Bonus if instead of skill you can also allow resistances, stat bonus or class bonuses (heavy combat learning bonus, stalker stam regen, etc)

• 1 karma for 2 skills
• 2 karma for 3 skills
• 3 karma for 4 skills.

[dumbstruck]

On a slight tangent then, I still believe making mundane options more enticing is really the best way to combat mage popularity :

I would love to be able chose any mundane skills I want and allow me to train them to max for the following karma:

Bonus if instead of skill you can also allow resistances, stat bonus or class bonuses (heavy combat learning bonus, stalker stam regen, etc)

• 1 karma for 2 skills
• 2 karma for 3 skills
• 3 karma for 4 skills.

It'd be really nice if karma was actually still used to reflect roles that were MORE DIFFICULT TO PLAY, not EASIER TO PLAY correctly, because when it's the first, it makes sense as a measure of staff trust. As the latter it becomes a measure of staff favortism, and screws over players who have less of it in the general passage of gameplay, systematically. Thus as a knock on effect only making the game harsher for newbies and easier for veterans. And since it's always veterans that are drilling to make the game harder, that seems like something that is not only unfair to newer players but also likely to backfire at the end of the day.

[Usiku]

It'd be really nice if karma was actually still used to reflect roles that were MORE DIFFICULT TO PLAY, not EASIER TO PLAY correctly.

I'm curious which karma restricted roles you think are inappropriately placed on the scale using that measure? This is generally what we are trying to achieve, with a balance between higher karma roles being more difficult to play correctly but also with more potential for damage when they are played incorrectly.

[BadSkeelz]

All the magick ones, for starts. Dwarves are under-karma costed as well.

[dumbstruck]

It'd be really nice if karma was actually still used to reflect roles that were MORE DIFFICULT TO PLAY, not EASIER TO PLAY correctly.

I'm curious which karma restricted roles you think are inappropriately placed on the scale using that measure? This is generally what we are trying to achieve, with a balance between higher karma roles being more difficult to play correctly but also with more potential for damage when they are played incorrectly.

It's being flattened and fixed currently but: literally every extended subguild that was mundane.

I'm not sure how far the IDB on the new iteration goes back but if it accesses 2011 era convos, you'll see the specifics of convo on it then. Like people wanted to put it in as something to make your character more powerful, not because it was more difficult to play correctly, and some people had reservations then about it, and how it and karma as understood played together. (much like the karma timers, and a number of other things which eventually proved to be problematic but are aside the point in this specific instance)

So what I was getting at in the above you were quoting was me trying to say: please don't do another thing that makes being a mundane pc who is for the most part in IC terms more or less "normal" something hard for new players to access and advantageous for veteran players, when those veteran players who would and will stand to gain the most (literally doubling in Dresan's proposal, which is what I was referring to explicitly) the number of "benefits" a karma player could acquire in a totally mundane sphere with mechanical advantage from what a new player could even special app for when it's often veteran players (who often have the most karma) who are most of the time pounding a drum for making shit harder.

That making shit harder when you are literally using advantages new players don't have to have an advantage to make it easier than they have it to start with is probably not going to have the intended effect, and just make things MUCH harder for newer players when it doesn't need to be, while karma gating more content that in the case where it's offering simple mechanical advantage and no IC increased difficulty... probably not likely to have the desired effect on new player retention, play for new players either, and simply be one more pocket advantage which has no IC root in being difficult to play properly (is it harder to play someone who regenerates their stamina faster? will karma players who use this advantage to pk newer and lower karma players ever going to get warnings or karma slapped over abusing the advantage to make life miserable for newbies or people who lack it? there's so little evidence of people getting karma slapped for doing stuff to grief other players with other roles it seems unlikely, so why gate this that way).

It's interesting to see that karma has evolved to now include "more potential for damage when they are played incorrectly" on roles, and not just ones that are "more difficult to play correctly" because that seems like it folds in with wanting to use karma on mundane things like people are still looking at kcgp/cgp like a system of advantages people can vie for karma for rather than just letting it literally be a measure of how likely someone is to come in and do something stupid, devastating and really contentious with other players, and it makes me wonder why armageddon.org/help/view/Karma

Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player

if it's being used as a tally for how powerful a role you can play and not just how tricky or difficult the role you have access is supposed to be.

But that also folds into thoughts shared elsewhere on magick and how back in the day there was a natural balance to those roles in that they gave up utility, versatility, ability to hide what they were unless they were very clever, and more. But yeah, as Badskeelz points out, by that measure, dwarves should definitely be a karma race, and they're not. Hell, if we're going on power AND difficulty to play properly, honestly I think desert elves should be a karma higher to play than touched are. Touched are nearly completely mundane with only a piddly little handful of spells at most, and never the best shit that any guild had to offer combined together, where desert elves are basically wilderness templars as for a base power level, AND have roleplay documentation that they are supposed to be adhering to. Though I realize that that's probably not a super popular opinion. (Though I still think city elves need to be improved in some fashion to be playable even at 0 karma outside of very specific fringe cases).

Sorry, looks like that got a bit more verbose than intended, and if it comes off at all hostile, please understand it's not intended, I have very strong feelings, and I've been told that when expressing very strong feelings has come off hostile when not intended in the past, and it's definitely not intended here. Passionate, not angry.

[Dresan]

After a while nothing is really hard to play, its more a question of how fun you find it to play. 

What I am proposing is a more interesting mundane role option that would still require a level of trust from staff. Its not really about hard or easy, and even compared to mage options at that those karma levels, it would not really be that powerful.

More mundane characters is a benefit to newbies vs hidden/rogue magickers everywhere, because they are more likely to stick around you, RP with you and more importantly show neat things/secrets that make the game easier to play in the future.

Now all that said, I am hoping slipknife/mountaineer/outdoors man gets old infiltrator level of high advanced sneak/hide. 

[dumbstruck]

After a while nothing is really hard to play, its more a question of how fun you find it to play. 

What I am proposing is a more interesting mundane role option that would still require a level of trust from staff. Its not really about hard or easy, and even compared to mage options at that those karma levels, it would not really be that powerful.

More mundane characters is a benefit to newbies vs hidden/rogue magickers everywhere, because they are more likely to stick around you, RP with you and more importantly show neat things/secrets that make the game easier to play in the future.

Now all that said, I am hoping slipknife/mountaineer/outdoors man gets old infiltrator level of high advanced sneak/hide. 

I get that, but if we're trying to add mundane options that are specifically karma locked, I feel like that would be a place to let people app in as nobles and merchant house family members. aka someone who can't just put your ass in jail and turn the whole city military on you in 2 seconds and kill you publicly with no repercussions whatsoever, but are still (seemingly) trusted roles. And not just trusted roles but ones that people have actively lamented the lack of already. Rather than just adding some random skills on your sheet as an advantage that new players would lack.

Or even just a version of what you are proposing that has a hard cap of 2 things and is good for anyone with 0 karma to app in as as a 1 karma role. If you want to grow the playerbase, game design decisions should be made with an eye toward the play experience of new players you are trying to bring in, not just the people who already have massive advantage not only in in game knowledge, race and subguild access, and rapport with both one another and years of interaction with favored or disfavored staff members. (in my opinion, of course)

[Dresan]

stuff

I disagree with you. You seem to equate difficulty to fun. Its really not.

Karma roles are usually more powerful and they are more easily abusable. The difficulty is related to the knowledge required to play them properly, so you aren't seeing smart giants or Tolkien desert elves. However, from a setting perspective there is potentially no roleplay difference between a karma 1 touched magicker and karma 3 magicker. The only difference is the level of power and ease of abuse.

I get you don't like the idea that more powerful roles are karma locked putting a 'newbie' at some sort of perceived disadvantage but its tough beans, this is working as intended. The only disadvantage I see to newbies is the one that occurs when too many people are playing mage roles and are off together on plots of high magick and adventure which the newbie cannot easily join as a mundane. Hence why it might make sense to make mundane roles for veteran either more convenient or give them some more mundane variety as my idea intended to do.   

I do find it rather funny you want to karma lock role calls, given your opinion. However, even though the staff does very likely take karma into account I do believe there are still some roles there open for someone who might have little or no karma but instead have a couple good well RP characters under their belt. Perhaps your definition of newbie is different from mine, but I would rather these rolecalls be open to everyone instead of karma locked.

[dumbstruck]

I don't. On any of that.

I don't equate difficulty to fun.

I don't believe that noble or other such roles should be "karma locked" (and in fact I suggested that if YOUR suggestion were implemented it be done in such a way as to make it accessible to new players by making it a 1 karma thing if you MUST make mundane roles karma based even when they have no documentation based reason why they should be more difficult to play properly). In fact, I've been suggesting for months that those roles should be open to everyone with a 'role application' request with a reasonable cap of 2-3 in each house like desert elves are.

In fact, the only reason why it was even suggested was as a compromise of you wanting to make these mundane roles with no documented reason they should be more difficult as a special, karma locked thing, because they are existing mundane roles that people have been clamoring to see more of (even just 2 roles in each GMH that can sell that way every player in the game isn't stuck dealing with 1 player's playtimes to deal with an entire GMH).

Literally, check my post history. You'll find at least 4, probably half a dozen or more posts on it from me in the last 6 months.

I'm personally curious why it is you want to make these extra roles that are karma locked and have no documented reason why they are more difficult but are karma locked only because it confers advantages to long term players rather than being a role that requires special trust to understand and respect the setting.

[Usiku]

I didn't mean literal physical damage.. I meant more like.. screw things up in game, cause a big mess, ruin plots in ways they shouldn't be ruined, abuse specific powerful skills, break immersion etc.

We have no plans to make things harder and more inaccessible for new players and karma will never be used as a currency with which you can 'buy' bumps and extra things because that isn't what it is for.

[dumbstruck]

I didn't mean literal physical damage.. I meant more like.. screw things up in game, cause a big mess, ruin plots in ways they shouldn't be ruined, abuse specific powerful skills, break immersion etc.

My apologies, I misunderstood, and that does make more sense read that way. Sometimes I am too literal. Thank you for the clarification.