Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Brokkr]

Mansa, you keep making mistakes.  Master Chef, for instance, would not be listed out if there were no changes.   I even listed out the subclasses that have no changes.

And please, if you are going to do bulk suggestions, provide the reasoning.

Do you find masa's suggestions objectionable for any non pedantic reason?

A slew of suggestions without reasoning behind them isn't very helpful for determining direction or whether this should move forwards.

[Delirium]

He probably thought the reasoning was self-evident and/or didn't want to clutter up the thread with walls of text. It's more or less a proven fact that the shorter and snappier you keep your posts the more likely it is to actually be seen.

After thought I do not like the master subclass suggestions at all because they're both too limited (in the amount of skills they offer) and too powerful in conjunction with tier 1 combat classes. The ONLY combo I'd see not being too powerful is master scan/listen paired with Fighter because it'd give Fighters at least some counter to raiders/enforcers in late-game play, but let's be real, even master scan is not going to beat advanced hide + hide gear the majority of the time.

Just fix rough rider by adding jman dsense and wilderness forage and bumping the cap of either ride or charge to master.

The rest of the master classes seem like more trouble than they're worth when looked at holistically and not in a vaccum.

[Brokkr]

I keep seeing people suggest rough rider needs direction sense; I've suggested that in the past (along with adding wilderness food forage) and been ignored and so many others have too. It's hilarious to me that the obvious, logical fix to make rough rider not suck as a subclass keeps being what I can only assume is deliberately ignored at this point.

Not being ignored.  I don't know whether to take it back down to 4-7 skills but not master level, to deprecate it, or something else.  If there is a pair of skills that don't make sense for mastery (to the whole system doesn't make sense) it is easy enough not do them.  As I have mentioned before, this time you are included before any of the actual decisions have been made on whether to proceed or not.

[Delirium]

If players are stuck with a deprecated subclass (that literally proves it sucks) and aren't allowed the option to switch to a new subguild, PLEASE at least let them add a couple related skills that they think would make sense (to jman level, nothing wild). Leaving them stuck with a bad subguild that is bad that people have repeatedly suggested fixes for would be horribly frustrating.

[Ender]

I keep seeing people suggest rough rider needs direction sense; I've suggested that in the past (along with adding wilderness food forage) and been ignored and so many others have too. It's hilarious to me that the obvious, logical fix to make rough rider not suck as a subclass keeps being what I can only assume is deliberately ignored at this point.

Not being ignored.  I don't know whether to take it back down to 4-7 skills but not master level, to deprecate it, or something else.  If there is a pair of skills that don't make sense for mastery (to the whole system doesn't make sense) it is easy enough not do them.  As I have mentioned before, this time you are included before any of the actual decisions have been made on whether to proceed or not.

Yea, the more I'm thinking about it, the masteries would create more problems than they'd fix giving top tier classes too much umph, and giving mid tier classes not enough which would push top tier combat classes even further away from their mid tier counterparts.

An enforcer with master poisoning, a raider with master hide, a fighter with master scan (actually that one would be ok, poor Fighter is the worst) is just too imbalancing, and for the lower tiers they really get no real benefit from them that they wouldn't already have.

It does feel like these are made to support roughrider which really does feel like the worst extended subguild that is completely demolished by not having direction sense.

Honestly I've been of the opinion that direction sense in general (and to a lesser extent how climb works in the wilderness) are really anti-fun an exclusionary for any PC that does not have them in a game that has a dwindling playerbase.  Especially in places like Red Storm, for a PC that does not have direction sense it does not create a "Oh this storm is dangerous" feeling, it creates a "well, I can't do anything, so I might as well log off" feeling for characters without direction sense.

[Delirium]

Honestly I've been of the opinion that direction sense in general (and to a lesser extent how climb works in the wilderness) are really anti-fun an exclusionary for any PC that does not have them in a game that has a dwindling playerbase.  Especially in places like Red Storm, for a PC that does not have direction sense it does not create a "Oh this storm is dangerous" feeling, it creates a "well, I can't do anything, so I might as well log off" feeling for characters without direction sense.

Yep. Especially considering the blinding storms primarily happen in places where you won't just get turned around and lost, you'll very possibly fall to a guaranteed death. Especially considering the way climb is implemented, with a critfail or fail knocking you out for 10-20 minutes or so, leaving you utterly helpless. That's not fun for anyone, that's Gary Gygax style "rocks fall you die" style gameplay that went out with the dodo about 10-15 years ago.

[Dresan]

Honestly I've been of the opinion that direction sense in general (and to a lesser extent how climb works in the wilderness) are really anti-fun an exclusionary for any PC that does not have them in a game that has a dwindling playerbase.  Especially in places like Red Storm, for a PC that does not have direction sense it does not create a "Oh this storm is dangerous" feeling, it creates a "well, I can't do anything, so I might as well log off" feeling for characters without direction sense.

I agree with this sentiment.


However, in regards to master stealth subguilds, again I would be okay with it if it had a karma requirement which consumed karma.

And let me just add I might have still agreed that the subclasses were too powerful before infiltrator buffs or additional magick subclasses. However, I think the infiltrator class now has a good enough tool set to achieve decent murderhobo results with or without a karma subclass.

And heck, I want to believe that the only thing that will change is weathered high endurance dwarves might need to watch their backs a bit more instead of just aides and merchants, that is assuming an enforcer puts in the work to branch sap or backstab. But then again, enforcer stealth is viable enough currently to achieve that with enough training and bountry hunter sub-guild so meh.

We can trust players with powerful magicks that can render anything a mundane can do moot but not trust them with more powerful mundane abilities? 

[Delirium]

I think it's pretty obvious by now that I think subguild mages were a huge mistake and subguild sorcerers even moreso. Jury's out on psi's. But I already explained all that in another thread. That can of worms can stay there.

[Brytta Léofa]

Yea, the more I'm thinking about it, the masteries would create more problems than they'd fix giving top tier classes too much umph, and giving mid tier classes not enough which would push top tier combat classes even further away from their mid tier counterparts.

Top tier combat with master stealth is pretty overpowered, but it's not worse than top tier combat + any number of magick options. (Which, of course, are karma-limited and more restrictive. I am concerned about new account #567 achieving instagib power, but that's not a new problem...any enforcer with good stats and some time can get there.)

One concern I have with the master stealth subguild is...if you're playing a raider, obviously you're gonna pick master city stealth, and vice-versa with enforcer. Is it time to think about separating sneak and hide into city and wilderness skills? We have a ton of classes getting stealth today, and a ton of subclasses giving stealth options. It's a far cry from 2010's "assassin with hunter subguild."

[Delirium]

I don't understand why there's so much resistance to an obvious, simple fix to roughrider that's been suggested multiple times by different people but now we're stuck on this "master skill" subclass tree discussion instead, which felt created entirely to support the idea of refusing to add skills to roughrider and bumping what they do have to master.

I'm halfway tempted to ask for some examples to justify the reasoning behind it but I've been salty enough already.

[Mercy]

I'll be honest, I didn't read this thread in it's entirety. I'm sick IRL and trying to parse all this information has been difficult at best. After a good amount of reading and skimming, I feel like I probably missed this in here but I can't seem to find it so excuse me if I'm asking a redundant question.

What exactly is the intended purpose of subclasses?

I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

I don't know if this bit means specifically in this instance, or in general. Especially because I'm pulling it out of context and already forgot what it's in response to. I don't hold my opinion in high regard because I can barely manage to play Arm these days. I don't have the stability in my life for it presently. So take what I say with a bucket of salt. I've always been under the impression classes were meant to supply the more meat of your skills, and by and large fit the core theme of your character's story. Then subclasses fill out the utility and quirky bits that are especially unique to their story, vs the general story the class fulfills. With certain skills (or level of skill) being relegated to class-only. If subclasses are being designed independently of classes that kind of throws my fundamental idea of their existence out the window and my personal idea of balance. I'm not going to say my way is the right way, but I'd like to understand what the intended direction is meant to be so I can better make suggestions that are in line with that stream of logic and ultimately make my peace with it.

[Brokkr]

I don't understand why there's so much resistance to an obvious, simple fix to roughrider that's been suggested multiple times by different people but now we're stuck on this "master skill" subclass tree discussion instead, which felt created entirely to support the idea of refusing to add skills to roughrider and bumping what they do have to master.

I'm halfway tempted to ask for some examples to justify the reasoning behind it but I've been salty enough already.

Actually I started with the idea of addressing feedback from awhile ago how none of the subclasses get maxed stealth and worked backwards from there.

[Brokkr]

I'll be honest, I didn't read this thread in it's entirety. I'm sick IRL and trying to parse all this information has been difficult at best. After a good amount of reading and skimming, I feel like I probably missed this in here but I can't seem to find it so excuse me if I'm asking a redundant question.

What exactly is the intended purpose of subclasses?

I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

I don't know if this bit means specifically in this instance, or in general. Especially because I'm pulling it out of context and already forgot what it's in response to. I don't hold my opinion in high regard because I can barely manage to play Arm these days. I don't have the stability in my life for it presently. So take what I say with a bucket of salt. I've always been under the impression classes were meant to supply the more meat of your skills, and by and large fit the core theme of your character's story. Then subclasses fill out the utility and quirky bits that are especially unique to their story, vs the general story the class fulfills. With certain skills (or level of skill) being relegated to class-only. If subclasses are being designed independently of classes that kind of throws my fundamental idea of their existence out the window and my personal idea of balance. I'm not going to say my way is the right way, but I'd like to understand what the intended direction is meant to be so I can better make suggestions that are in line with that stream of logic and ultimately make my peace with it.

If you look at how subclasses are oriented, its around a role.  How can a subclass enable a certain role, usually related to its name but not always (Outdoorsman just being Hunter+ for instance).  Not how it can mesh with classes to min/max your utility.

[Delirium]

The problem with designing subclasses independent of classes is that it ignores:

- People use subclasses to flesh out their characters so they can fill a role they've envisioned
- Players will min-max. They just will. Dorf rukkian empowerment anyone?

Not looking at how subclasses mesh with main classes ignores both scenarios and ends up with subs that are either going to be extremely attractive because of how powerful they are when combined with x class and/or x race, or extremely unattractive because they don't offer enough to flesh out the gaps in a main class that would allow a player to design their character for the role they wanted.

[mansa]

Here's another Category:

Ride / Exploration:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Wastelander	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Scan	Master
	Search	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness
	Wilderness Quit
Grebber	Ride	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Forage Food in City
	Forage Food in Wilderness
Outdoorsman Hunter	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Archery	Advanced
	Skin	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Hide
Nomad	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Wilderness Quit
	Hitch 2 Mounts
Outlaw	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Knife Making	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Armor Repair	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Hunt
Bandit	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Charge	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
Mountaineer	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
	Forage food in Wilderness

Wastelander Change: Add Ride at Advanced
Grebber: No Change
Retire Outdoorsman, bump Hunter to Outdoorsman skill levels.  Add Ride at Advanced, Remove Hide.
Nomad: Bump Haggle to Advanced, Add Wilderness Quit.
Outlaw:  This wasn't listed, but I assume bump skills to advanced instead of journeyman.
Bandit:  New Subclass focused on charge, threaten, climb, and hide.
Mountaineer: New Subclass focused on Climbing and Outdoor Stealth


Observances:
A lot of these subclasses are similar in skill distribution, with only a couple differences.

Bandit should be replacing "Roughrider".   Roughrider is lacking in skills and having a 'mastery' in the charge/ride skill isn't that good, IMO.   Or you can just merge the two.

Otherwise, I like the new Mountaineer.


Question:  Is it possible to have movement points regen faster, or is that only an option for main classes?

[Brokkr]

Outlaw - Whelp, yep I forgot one.

MV Regen - Yes, that can be toggled on a subclass.

[flurry]

I know this has been brought up in the past, but it seems to me that since "learns languages faster" is a perk that exists, that linguists should get that perk.  It just seems like such a natural fit.  Someone with more interest and familiarity with languages would tend to learn additional languages quicker.

On a related note, I have always wished there were a subclass that learns accents faster. The bard subclass might be the best fit for this, and possibly linguists as well.

[mansa]

I know this has been brought up in the past, but it seems to me that since "learns languages faster" is a perk that exists, that linguists should get that perk.  It just seems like such a natural fit.  Someone with more interest and familiarity with languages would tend to learn additional languages quicker.

On a related note, I have always wished there were a subclass that learns accents faster. The bard subclass might be the best fit for this, and possibly linguists as well.

Learn Languages Faster is the same perk as Learn Accents Faster, as far as I know.
Linguists get that perk.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Linguist
"They are also have a skill for parroting the mannerisms of others - being able to acquire and employ accents with ease."

[Brytta Léofa]

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Linguist
"They are also have a skill for parroting the mannerisms of others - being able to acquire and employ accents with ease."

Okay, half-giants should totally get that as a racial perk.

[Nao]

I really like these suggestions overall. One thing that came to mind:

The new variant of archer/marksman only gets archery in the mockup, not the other ranged skills. The current marksman has all of them, that's a significant downgrade.
Edited to add: There should be some way to get the other ranged skills (at least sling use and blowgun use - I think everyone gets crossbows already?) via subclasses. Either let archer keep them, or at least make them accessible via another subclass.

Generally, sling use is underused. From a realism standpoint, it's the most efficient and accessible way to hunt small game that flees (jozhal, gurth and the like), due to the general ease of finding some rocks. Maybe add this to hunter and possibly other outdoorsy subclasses. The level doesn't even need to be particularly high to be useful, even at journeyman.

Another edit:
If the new archer ends up with too many skills, remove direction sense and featherworking. I'm not sure what those are doing there in the first place - afaik you don't need featherworking to make ammunition. Direction sense is nice to have for everyone, but I don't see the connection to archery.

Did I say something stupid here, or just got drowned out by Lotion?

[Brokkr]

No I just haven't had time to think about it much, working to get stuff I could put in front of players for guilds.

I agree it should be in one of the subs, just not sure where atm.

I don't know why archer has featherworking, it was one of the original skills.  So not taking it away (since that would delist from current archers).

[mansa]

Here's The Final Category:

Secondary Combat Skills Focused

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Marksman Archer	Archery	Advanced
	Fletchery	Master
	Bow Making	Master
	Feather Working	Master
	Dyeing	Master
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Crossbow Use
	Blowgun
	Sling Use
Protector Guard	Guarding	Advanced
	Parry	Advanced
	Shield Use	Advanced
	Rescue	Journeyman
	Subdue	Journeyman
	Watch	Advanced
	Bandage
	Flee
Bounty Hunter	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Subdue	Advanced
	Sap	Advanced
	City Hunt
	Wilderness Hunt
Thug	Bash	Advanced
	Flee	Advanced
	Kick	Advanced
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Sap	Advanced

Change #1:  Retire Marskman, Bump Archer skills up.  Do not give Archer blowgun/crossbow/sling use
Change #2:  Retire Protector, Bump Guard up.  Do not give Guard Flee or Bandage
Change #3:  Bump Bounty Hunter's skills to Advanced
Change #4:  Bump Thug's skills to Advanced



Suggested Change #1:
Like Nao mentioned, I think Archer should have crossbow use, blowgun, or sling use.   Perhaps just sling use.   Otherwise those skills won't be available in a subclass format at all.

Suggested Change #2:
I think Guard should get bandage at Advanced.  I don't think a lot of players use it, and it would be beneficial to have it in a skillset that Guard has.

[mansa]

Alright, I'm done with my in-depth review.

Final Thoughts:

If the subclass gets wilderness quit, it should also get a better movement regeneration rate.
If the subclass gets direction sense, it should also get a better movement regeneration rate.


I do not like the "two Mastery" subclass idea at all.  I think subclasses should cap at Advanced for most skills.  I think it adds more complexity and balance issues.
I am intrigued at the master poisoner, but I think it can be replaced with a subclass that gets those skills:
"Alchemist" -
Poison - (low) Advanced
Brew - Advanced
Forage - Advanced
Floristry - Advanced
Cooking - Advanced


Bandit should replace "Roughrider" and Roughrider should be retired.
Master Potter should also be retired, as it is a duplicate of the new "Crafter"

[Fredd]

This is cool. And I 100% approve.

[Dresan]

Is it time to think about separating sneak and hide into city and wilderness skills? We have a ton of classes getting stealth today, and a ton of subclasses giving stealth options. It's a far cry from 2010's "assassin with hunter subguild."

I remember suggesting this a long time ago and it wasn't met with positivity from anyone, especially staff if i remember correctly..

I am not sure how easy this change would be to do, especially with the gear update required but i would support it.

That said, it would feel like a massive nerf to a number of mundane classes without something to counter it.