Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Delirium]

If you can't understand how switching skills around on characters impacts the player's story and agency to tell that story, no amount of examples is going to change your mind, and frankly after having submitted extensive and carefully thought out suggestions both through the request tool and the GDB only to feel ignored, I don't have the emotional bandwidth. Attitudes like yours are why players are leaving the game and I'm just about done. Every time I think I'm coming around to having fun again in spite of the attitude I get by trying to stick up for players and offer feedback that comes from having played experience with X and Y, things like this happen and posts like yours happen.

I'm glad you're finally making the changes and I appreciate all the effort that you put in and how much work it will be, I truly am and I truly do. I wish you could understand how brusquely you come across and how little you seem to care about the impacts these changes have on players and their characters. What should be an exciting change now feels scary and uncertain because we aren't being given the opportunity to adjust our characters, if desired, to the coded specs that would suit their story, both how it has played out in the past or how it might be evolving.

You want me to do more emotional labor of writing out carefully thought out examples but every time I've done so I've been ignored. Why should I bother? What proof have I been given that it will be worth that effort?

I can explain myself blue in the face but if you don't want to listen to me you won't. I've learned my lesson.

[mansa]

Here's another category:

Thievery Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Con Artist	Hide	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	City Stealth
Cutpurse Thief	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Peek	Advanced
	Steal	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	City Stealth
Rogue	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Pick	Advanced
	City Stealth
Slipknife	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Poisoning	Advanced
	Throw	Journeyman
	Backstab	Advanced
	City Stealth

Change #1 - Con Artist - Bump Hide, Value, Haggle to Advanced.  Add Scan to Advanced.
Change #2 - Retire Cutpurse, bump Thief up.  Do not add Sap.
No change to Rogue.
No change to Slipknife.


The thievery subclasses tend to have a singular skill focus (Pick, Poisoning, Steal), and then have other stealthy skills built around them.

Suggested Change #1 - Give Peek to Con Artist.  Con Artist is very similar to Bard and House Servant, and those subclasses have an extra skill to make it special.  Peek is an under-utilized and underpowered skill.

[Brokkr]

Delirium, what I am saying is everything was designed to hopefully be additive.  Yes, I can understand that an Outdoorsman might look at Hunter and say "I would rather be that."  But until this point Outdoorsman was presumably doing fine for that character, and the power levels are not different.  So in terms of fit to character, this wouldn't seem to match your concerns.

If someone wants to change from Outdoorsman to Master Chef, it is a leap sideways that isn't even aligned with the substitute class.  Hopefully this isn't an example of what you mean but I don't know for sure.


When I ask for an example I am specifically asking you to try to change my mind, through an example(s) that makes sense and is well reasoned.

[Brokkr]

Con Artist was also given scan.

[Delirium]

You seem to feel all the changes are additive to current classes, but from what I've looked at some subclasses are really changing in mentality and extended classes are being removed entirely in favor of new ones.

Why is it so hard to understand that in those cases players might want to switch?

Obviously the switch would need to make sense for the character's story and background.

I also feel like good suggestions (such as adding journeyman skills to balance the "two master" subs) are getting overlooked.

[Brokkr]

I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

To use Hunter/Outdoorsman as an example, there are some skills changing, but I wouldn't say the mentality has changed.  If you do, then I'd like to understand the thinking (just an example, not specifically this combo).  But how I view it may be fundamentally different that how you view it.  The key is that it isn't the viewpoint that matters, it is the reasoning used to get there, which is why high level statements do not really work.

As for the Two Mastery + Journeyman idea, it is simply something my own reaction is to say no to (as it gets rid of some of the sacrifice that balances out the best skill levels), but I need to talk to other Staff about as well as letting the idea percolate here.  It isn't something I feel particularly strongly about either way, so you aren't getting a yes/no a couple of hours after the suggestion.

[Delirium]

I'm not asking for a yes/no answer right this minute but I do want to make sure they're at least being considered, because

I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

THAT is the problem with the "two master" classes, and if you're not looking at how these subs might line up with the main classes, then we have another problem and a vastly different approach to balancing out the current issues with the classes and subclasses which I've already posted and spoken about ad nauseam.

[lostinspace]

Not sure I understand these images. For Forester->Woodworker, what level of haggle and and club making will they get?

[mansa]

I took the population of subclasses that players choose from 2021.

I merged the population of the expected "retiring" subclasses and what their replacements will be that have been listed in the first post.

I get this:

(You might need to click it to get a bigger version of it)



Outliers are:
Master Potter (and I think it should be retired)
Lancer (Everybody gets piercing weapon skills now, up to Journeyman.  Get piercing up to Advanced with combat skills doesn't seem to be an advantage.  Maybe if it got backstab too?)
Bruiser (Almost everybody gets bludgeoning weapon skills now, for the most part.  It doesn't seem to be very attractive, similar to Lancer)
Hunter (with it combined with Outdoorsman) means a lot of players took it.
Physician (with it combined with Apothecary) means a lot of players took it.

And
Roughrider.


Nobody 4 Players choose Roughrider in 2021.  I think because the skills are a bad choice compared to what else is available.   They get so few additional skills, no player sees value in choosing them.
I believe this situation (no players will choose them) will be similar these the newly designed "Master" subclasses:
Wild Stealth mastery   (why not choose Outdoorsman?)
City Stealth Mastery   (why not choose Slipknife?)
Archery Mastery   (why not choose Outdoorsman?)
Scan Mastery  (why not choose Outdoorsman?)
Skinning Mastery  (why not choose Outdoorsman?)


I think Poisoning Master might be the only one to have some players choose them.

[Brytta Léofa]

City Stealth Mastery   (why not choose Slipknife?)

Advanced vs master is a significant difference when it comes to stealth. I would pair a master stealth subclass with heavy combat (raider, enforcer, fighter). Or with soldier, for a really well rounded city-based combatant that gets max stealth and max scan.

[Dresan]

Well i won't lie, MAX skill archery and stealth skills are nice, nice enough to be good stand alones depending on how you want to play your character. But times have changed and not everyone has the time to invest in his game that they used to have.

There is a reason why stalker and raider are so attractive, they can do a lot regardless of subguild choices. This is important to think about when your time is limited and you want to maximize the fun you can create for yourself in this game.   Direction sense is an important time saver and may allow you to make the most of your time in game especially if you play in the south/redstorm.

Additionally, the only murderhobos I've normally seen in game are usually sponsored roles and high karma muls/magickers.  I am not even sure infiltrator is as popular as raiders or stalkers even after its buffs (I would love to see a current chart of class distribution over the last few months if anyone feels up to it).

That is why between master charge and low level direction sense, I feel most people would choose a class/subclass with some level of direction sense if they are looking to take their class outside the city for any reason.

[Nao]

I really like these suggestions overall. One thing that came to mind:

The new variant of archer/marksman only gets archery in the mockup, not the other ranged skills. The current marksman has all of them, that's a significant downgrade.
Edited to add: There should be some way to get the other ranged skills (at least sling use and blowgun use - I think everyone gets crossbows already?) via subclasses. Either let archer keep them, or at least make them accessible via another subclass.

Generally, sling use is underused. From a realism standpoint, it's the most efficient and accessible way to hunt small game that flees (jozhal, gurth and the like), due to the general ease of finding some rocks. Maybe add this to hunter and possibly other outdoorsy subclasses. The level doesn't even need to be particularly high to be useful, even at journeyman.

Another edit:
If the new archer ends up with too many skills, remove direction sense and featherworking. I'm not sure what those are doing there in the first place - afaik you don't need featherworking to make ammunition. Direction sense is nice to have for everyone, but I don't see the connection to archery.

[Lotion]

You may have noticed roughrider is missing.  It becomes the first subclass for an additional proposal.  These would be zero karma subclasses that only get two paired skills.  You'll notice the words master in red.  That is because these two skills would be at the max skill level any guild gets the skill.  Current proposed subclasses of this nature:



This is not an all or nothing proposal, and the decision to even move forwards with it hasn't been made yet.  Feel free to give your feedback.  You can be for part of it and against part of it.  You can comment on which skills you feel should be included or not, but keep in mind the principles around how we would intend to update the subclasses due to lack of versioning.  If you are proposing something that doesn't work within that, it will likely get ignored.

I think these are either absurdly useless or absurdly high utility. I would much rather see a subguild that applies the city+wild flag to stealth, scan, and hunt than split up these stealth masteries in such a cluttery way. It also seems really ridiculous to allow enforcer/raider to rock max dual max stealths. Currently access to poison+brew is very restricted. The only guilds that have both are fence, miscreant, and stalker. Access to poison from subguilds is heavily restricted, only existing on slipknife and drovian touched (which also both provide stealth flags).
Roughrider doesn't need master chargeride, it needs direction sense. Enabling enforcer, fighter, or even raider (to a lesser extent) to get master ride is something that absolutely boggles my mind considering how powerful that could potentially be.

[Lotion]

This is good idea. I would love to see this implemented.

The only feedback/suggestion i would have is that you have k1 and k2 options for the same subguilds, the only difference is k1 and k2 options would have higher skill caps. There is a big difference between advanced stealth and (maxed) master stealth in terms of usefulness, same with skills like archery, backstab and sap.

My suggestion is you balanced the subclasses in terms of skill but keep skill caps for k0 as currently extended subclass levels. However,  the skill cap on subclasses would then be boosted for k1 and k2 levels options, each options perhaps having 1 more maxed skill than the other. Of course, k1 or k2 options would consume karma.

I would rather see higher karma players playing raiders with more strong mundane skills, or with other interesting mundane traits then just another raider/magicker.

Lastly, rough rider should have direction sense as the classes who are most likely to pick this subclass would require that skill to make the most use of riding.

ew no

[Lotion]

Caravan Guide - No Change
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

http://armageddon.org/help/view/caravan%20guide
Please update the helpfile to include this very important information.

[Lotion]

Nomad already have spearmaking, so it isn't going away.  Nomad having spearmaking I think was intended as a big hint that nomad should use....spears.

Also, I think of nomads as Tribals.  In a tribe.  Not oriented to living in the wastes alone, but rather with...their tribe.

Which is why I redid Wastelanders with Bendune.  Those tribals that are more self-sufficient.

Having different subclasses be near carbon copies of each other defeats part of the point of this exercise.

The currently existing options for pc tribals are
1) play in an existing coded tribe, restricting options heavily
2) do a family rolecall tribe and then find three other players to play with you with no repicks in the event of one flaking
3) play a solo tribal with an entirely virtual tribe with the consequence that you are literally on your own
Having actual other PCs who are also members of your tribe is extremely costly in the form of restrictions and the reality of it is that a vast majority of tribal PCs are played completely solo. Solo PC tribals often opt to either band together or just like become a city PC and ignore the fact that in three or so generations their bloodline will not speak a lick of bendune and accept cultural assimilation.

The reality of tribal gameplay is that self sufficency is something that should be heavily prioritized by players making tribal characters.

Giving bendune/bendune accent as a benefit to a subguild is not very desirable when compared to other languages because characters of almost any race can pick "nomadic origin" which gives players bendune and benduneaccent for free along with a container belt that can be opened and closed. I'm not joking about the belt. I love that thing and its sheer utility,

[Lotion]

snip

I think this post is a good example of the differences between what people expect from a subguild and what the "dual mastery" subguilds provide. They will end up being incredibly situational and overshadowed except when someone picks perhaps enforcer+wild stealth and then becomes an absolute terror abusing the master backstab/sap/bash with max dual stealths

[Lotion]

you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

Then why not simply allow a subguild change?

If a staffer changes a PC's subguild it will reset all of their skills to the starting level of the guild and staff would also have to manually update every single one of your skills back to the previous level. It is possible that is an amount of labor staff is unwilling to perform for every existing PC.

[Lotion]

Mansa, you keep making mistakes.  Master Chef, for instance, would not be listed out if there were no changes.   I even listed out the subclasses that have no changes.

And please, if you are going to do bulk suggestions, provide the reasoning.

Do you find masa's suggestions objectionable for any non pedantic reason?

[Lotion]

I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

Subclasses need the context of other subclasses that they will exist alongside in order to be meaningfully evaluated. Looking at each of them in a vaccum can lead to many same-y subclasses or subclasses that provide things that are very valuable compared to similar subclasses. The citystealthy subclasses each having a different main focus the way mansa is showing them I think is really good but a lot of the proposed guilds that give advanced ride+dsense just don't feel that fantastic when considering what skills they would overlap with the guilds I might expect to pick them on (fighter/enforcer lines)

[Dresan]

Eight posts in a short amount of time. I guess you have a lot to say.

Much Stuff

My thoughts:

• If the two skill subguilds seems a bit powerful then I would still recommend adding an addition skill and making it a 1 karma option plus restricting them as a choice for karma races.
• If staff feels the karma options are too strong to see continuously then i would recommend decrease karma regen time across the board
• If staff feels people just stop playing in order to pick karma options continuously I would recommend having karma regen time be based on in-game play time (something i think the game should actually do to properly balance karma options)

In my opinion seeing raider with max stealth mastery is still better for the game than continuously seeing raider/stalker/infiltrator- magick anything subguild. Again nothing against magickers, its a cool theme and people should be allowed to play them. I even support the return of full magickers someday and thought it was great staff announced additional support for magicker for opportunity for further character development, assuming they are RP'ing out their magick and engaged with Staff via reports and such.

However, it is too one sided, the options for experienced players that want to continue playing/supporting the mundane in-game world don't even remotely come close to the possibilities that open up as a magick subclass(including touched). This is even more apparent if joining a clan doesn't fit your limited availability.   The mundane karma options should just be as cool as the magicker ones.

[X-D]

Mansa, When talking about the aggressor subs, one has to think of them as basically one sub. They all do the same thing but each has a different weapon skill.

And there is a reason to take each one, including bruiser and lancer even if your main class does already get piercing or blunt.

But it is unfair to only look at the numbers of one of them, they really should be taken as a whole.

[LindseyBalboa]

City Stealth Mastery   (why not choose Slipknife?)

Advanced vs master is a significant difference when it comes to stealth. I would pair a master stealth subclass with heavy combat (raider, enforcer, fighter). Or with soldier, for a really well rounded city-based combatant that gets max stealth and max scan.

I was on board with the master sub guilds until this and then I realized you'd have max stealth city/wild heavy combat characters with (I mean potentially) master backstab running around and being the best at heavy combat AND stealth AND stealth murder seems to be incongruous with previous class balancing.

[Delirium]

I keep seeing people suggest rough rider needs direction sense; I've suggested that in the past (along with adding wilderness food forage) and been ignored and so many others have too. It's hilarious to me that the obvious, logical fix to make rough rider not suck as a subclass keeps being what I can only assume is deliberately ignored at this point.

[Brokkr]

Caravan Guide - No Change
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

http://armageddon.org/help/view/caravan%20guide
Please update the helpfile to include this very important information.

In the proposal "now".  Not live and should be in the helpfiles "now".