In Defence of Full Guilds (and player input)

[Mellifera]

Sometimes it seems people take that we haven't shifted back to full guilds as not being interested in feedback.  We are.  However, in allowing back full guild magickers/psionicists, we disagree.  Ultimately, it is up to the Producers to decide overall direction questions such at these.  It may be a stark, hard-to-swallow truth, but there it is.

We appreciate your feedback.  That does not equate to changing our decision.

At least personally, I don't think that the fact staff haven't immediately reintroduced full-guilds immediately equates to you guys not being interested in feedback at all. However, there hasn't really been any discussion surrounding these sweeping changes (with players). It feels as though a lot just happens to players, OOC and IC, and it seems as though often we have no input or influence. I'm not trying to say that staff never inform the games direction based on the player-bases wants/needs, but it's impossible to tell what was and what wasn't, especially when a change like the full-guilds to sub-guilds, which many players have continually been displeased with for years, continues to chug along without comment.

[triste]

What is also jarring about guild and subguild changes is how it affects living characters. Nevermind what people hope and dream about playing. My most long lived and arguably powerful character (because she was shacking up with someone who MADE a clan in this game) was force stored because she was a full guild magicker. It sucks when a change affects living characters and you have no means of providing feedback. It sucks crushing dreams. It's reasonable/kind/admirable/professional/not-douchey to solicit player feedback before forcing changes like this on people.

[Halaster]

What is also jarring about guild and subguild changes is how it affects living characters. Nevermind what people hope and dream about playing. My most long lived and arguably powerful character (because she was shacking up with someone who MADE a clan in this game) was force stored because she was a full guild magicker. It sucks when a change affects living characters and you have no means of providing feedback. It sucks crushing dreams. It's reasonable/kind/admirable/professional/not-douchey to solicit player feedback before forcing changes like this on people.

We did not force-store anyone over the guild->subguild change for psionicists.

[Hauwke]

What is also jarring about guild and subguild changes is how it affects living characters. Nevermind what people hope and dream about playing. My most long lived and arguably powerful character (because she was shacking up with someone who MADE a clan in this game) was force stored because she was a full guild magicker. It sucks when a change affects living characters and you have no means of providing feedback. It sucks crushing dreams. It's reasonable/kind/admirable/professional/not-douchey to solicit player feedback before forcing changes like this on people.

I thought no one was force stored because of this, I was under the impression that people were just left to play their full guild PCs. Elkrans included, even though they were totally removed.

[Jihelu]

According to Triste they were stored over it.

If I recall sorcerer change required storage or swapping to a subguild.

[Hestia]

Elemental mages were -not- required to store their full-mage PCs when the shift to mage sub-guilds happened. Anyone who was already playing a full-guild mage, was allowed to continue until their mage was dead or until they chose to store (whichever came first).

[Jihelu]

So is Triste just lying or whats up?

[mansa]

If I recall sorcerer change required storage or swapping to a subguild.

Re: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842816.html#msg842816

I'm primarily displeased with how this change was handled behind the scenes, as the option offered during the changeover made zero sense from a continuity standpoint.  It would be wonderful if at least a modicum of regard was shown for the effort and care players have put into crafting stories and characters, as opposed to this Borg-like "assimilate or screw off, then we'll clean up the mess afterward" attitude that I've been perceiving.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842827.html#msg842827

From what I recall, we sent out communication to all existing sorcerers maybe a couple of weeks ago letting them know that the guild options were being changed for sorcerers, so they could pick from one of these new extended subguilds/get a main guild set up, accompanied with any equivalent skill boosts to reflect the time they'd spent playing the role.  I reviewed every case of what went on myself just now, and didn't see anything out of the ordinary...in one case we even swapped someone to a whole new character option that was high-karma, as they were losing the expected role.  (That was with a new character.)

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842841.html#msg842841

We did think it was necessary to alter the playable sorcerer guild options.  The retcon itself was not necessary, but we were also not prepared to leave the guild (as-is) played by PCs, so the options would have been discussion with staff on potential alternatives at that point (up to and including storage).

As Nathvaan pointed out, this will probably be tweaked and adjusted over time as well, from several angles.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842850.html#msg842850

Create an engaging and IC story for those who will be affected by the change that will either lead to their PCs logically easing into whatever transition is deemed necessary or writing their stories to whatever conclusion there may be (death/storage).

That way you create fun for the player to ease what will inevitably feel like a punishment.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842890.html#msg842890

I don't think this would have been out of the question if requested/discussed with staff, but I could be wrong.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842940.html#msg842940

The issue here isn't always about trust in a player. It's also about the way the player's role fits in to the game world, and the impact it has on other players. After a certain point, no matter how trusted the player, a sorcerer will hit the point where they have the ability to do some frightening things. Flexing the tiniest amount of muscle can get a PC killed; flexing a bit more muscle and you could wreck a Templar and a unit of militia or a whole tribe of desert elves. Sorcerers wind up with lots and lots of muscle to flex. Trusting a player to play a role responsibly isn't the same as having that role be something that fits into the game full time.

I like the new system in that it will still allow sorcerers to be plenty terrifying and scary, but at the same time it turns the average sorcerer concept into being a PC who wants to hide their dark secret and find ways to use their power, rather than playing a PC who wants to become the next dark lord of the universe. I'm excited to see some of the things you guys will do in game under that new paradigm.

And

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842945.html#msg842945 from Staff, which is too big to quote but tries to answer this question:
What do we wish sponsored and/or high-karma players to be doing with their time?


That feedback thread from 2014 is a very good read.

[Rokal]

I don't know what happened with Triste, perhaps it was a story thing, but I was playing a Full-guild gemmed mage that worked for Oash when the subguilds were released and revealed, and I wasn't forced to store, I continued playing for a while until I decided to store myself.

[triste]

I was forced to store like four months after the change, which was a nice buffer, but it still suxxored because I loved that character.

^{_{And Sharper Still, I still love you!}}

[Mellifera]

The issue here isn't always about trust in a player. It's also about the way the player's role fits in to the game world, and the impact it has on other players. After a certain point, no matter how trusted the player, a sorcerer will hit the point where they have the ability to do some frightening things. Flexing the tiniest amount of muscle can get a PC killed; flexing a bit more muscle and you could wreck a Templar and a unit of militia or a whole tribe of desert elves. Sorcerers wind up with lots and lots of muscle to flex. Trusting a player to play a role responsibly isn't the same as having that role be something that fits into the game full time.

I'm glad Mansa brought this quote up, since it's a valid point and one that I see most often given for the changes. I also mentioned it in my original post for this thread, though. There is an issue that needs resolving when it comes to the eventual level of power full-guilds can reach. I don't personally think that applies to psions nearly as much as it does sorcerers, since I don't think psions were ever nearly as powerful, but that's besides the point. There are other solutions that could be explored to ensure that once a full-guild reaches significant power, they are still challenged and can't simply sweep through whole units/tribes/templars and generally act without repercussions. There could be compromise.

And in regards to this (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842945.html#msg842945) post from 2014 which Mansa also brought up, that's quite enlightening and I appreciate them digging it up, but it also brings up another good point, and something that I've actually mentioned before on the discord. The way sorcerers, psions, and mages gain new spells is a bit dull and doesn't really encourage roleplay, it still doesn't, that hasn't changed with the shift to sub-guilds. They still have to hide away from the world while racking up fails for their socially unacceptable skill, be that in a cave, or the sewers, or an elemental temple, just generally away from the world. It would be interesting if they had a different progression system, akin to those templars mentioned, which had them need to actually seek out specific things, or do specific rituals, which would eventually create plots and get other people, especially mundanes, involved. That might also make it so that there's even more challenge for them, which is what staff want in the first place. That's just another idea in the end though,  once again my main point is that there are other solutions to explore, which might actually end in a much better experience and game than just settling for killing full-guilds off entirely.

[X-D]

Heh, I have been asking for organic mage/sorc/psi growth for YEARS.
And it makes even more sense now.

But good luck.

[Jihelu]

It is odd that sorcerers, who in Dark Sun are literally just wizards and from my understanding Arm is similar (Just no spellbooks here), have the same progression style as crafting skills.

I think elementalist branching is probably fine as is though. Maybe natural connections are just hella consistent (Though I wouldn't turn down the ability to learn more powers)

[Delirium]

If I recall sorcerer change required storage or swapping to a subguild.

Re: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.msg842816.html#msg842816

I'm primarily displeased with how this change was handled behind the scenes, as the option offered during the changeover made zero sense from a continuity standpoint.  It would be wonderful if at least a modicum of regard was shown for the effort and care players have put into crafting stories and characters, as opposed to this Borg-like "assimilate or screw off, then we'll clean up the mess afterward" attitude that I've been perceiving.

I was playing a sorcerer at the time and was given the option of switching to a subclass or storage.

Greetings,

We've moved away from having full sorcerers in the game and have changed them over to being subguilds.  As part of that we're having all full sorcerers pick a new guild/subguild appropriate to their character concept.

We'll take how far along your character is currently branched and apply that to updating your character after making the guild/subguild conversion.

The primary guild of your character can be any non-casting guild, while your subguild can be any of the following:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Enlightenment%20Magick
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Enchantment%20Magick
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Movement%20Magick
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Combat%20Magick

Considering how jarring it will be to try and do a guild change, I think it would be best if I retired my PC. There is almost no way I can envision explaining away not being able to do all of the things I have been capable of and which have been a part of my character's story.

To say that I am disappointed is an understatement, but I realize staff decisions on things like this are final.

I will put in a request to do so via the request tool.

Doesn't seem to be anything here to respond to.  Noted.

Not even a vague attempt at "I recognize this sucks" -- no empathizing, no indication that they thought about how a 20 day character might explain away a drastic change in their skills, abilities, and knowledge of the arcane. Just "choose something that fits your character concept" as if I weren't even apped in yet. It showed a complete disconnect with understanding how players even play the game. It made me pretty leery of staff's ability to empathize with player effort and the amount of time we sink into this hobby. This was 6 years ago, but I'm still a bit sore about how all that was handled.

[Veselka]

To be fair, you didn't seem to want to engage in a conversation about it either, you just jumped to storage.

[Jihelu]

To be fair, you didn't seem to want to engage in a conversation about it either, you just jumped to storage.

What was staff going to do? "Ah ok nah we'll let you keep the full guild'

[Delirium]

What conversation was there to have? That was staff's decision and offer, they'd made it, and that's what I had to work with.

I'd learned the hard way that trying to engage in a conversation with higher-level staff about decisions which were already made was a futile endeavor that would only get the worst assumed about my phrasing and intentions. Nyr once asked me to write in about my issues and then spent a page and a half yelling at me for writing in about my issues. No, I wasn't interested in trying to dialogue about this. I saw the writing on the wall.

Yes, Nyr is gone, but those who made these kind of sweeping, game-wide changes with no empathy toward the players are still here.

[Malken]

What conversation was there to have? That was staff's decision and offer, they'd made it, and that's what I had to work with.

I'd learned the hard way that trying to engage in a conversation with higher-level staff about decisions which were already made was a futile endeavor that would only get the worst assumed about my phrasing and intentions. Nyr once asked me to write in about my issues and then spent a page and a half yelling at me for writing in about my issues. No, I wasn't interested in trying to dialogue about this. I saw the writing on the wall.

Yes, Nyr is gone, but those who made these kind of sweeping, game-wide changes with no empathy toward the players are still here.

Damn, hearing that from Delirium is interesting. Most of us feel that way, but if you are starting to piss off loyal players like Delirium, you're in fuckin' deep trouble.

[triste]

Elemental mages were -not- required to store their full-mage PCs when the shift to mage sub-guilds happened. Anyone who was already playing a full-guild mage, was allowed to continue until their mage was dead or until they chose to store (whichever came first).

If this is true, it's odd that my character was stored without me issuing a storage request. I recalled getting a message from Nyr (pretty damn sure it was him, or some other ex staffer). It was sent to my ultra permabanned gdb account or sent to some old email or something and I can't find it searching email alas.

The fact is my full guild gick was stored without me issuing a storage request. Fact. I can validate that through the request tool. Account notes show stored, no storage request, it was a character I very much wanted to keep, I didn't break any rules. If I broke rules it would show up in account notes right? No notes to indicate rule breaking either. I recall magick guild changes being in the side channel message I got about it but sorry I cannot find that message now. Sucks not being able to find the exact text of the message but if staff say the justification was inactivity or something that is also probably not correct because I remembered logging in periodically to keep this character. I am 99% sure this PC was stored for being a full guild gick, please do not imply I lied.

Anyway, yeah, like last poster said, the communication breakdowns here are heartbreaking, I will say it's been a great test of my anger management skills, not even mad that I just got accused of lying when I didn't, I just hope we can collectively improve. Also Delirium and I were both slapped by an ex staffer so maybe that is improvement.

Please don't lock this thread or ban me, cheers to the discussion.

[Inks]

Nono. Full magick guilds can either be as they always are (crappy at real skills) or not come back. Lol.

Don't forget Rukkian got high forage and j/m skin already, etc.

Choose gladiator if you want 0 karms combat skills m8.

[Veselka]

Elemental mages were -not- required to store their full-mage PCs when the shift to mage sub-guilds happened. Anyone who was already playing a full-guild mage, was allowed to continue until their mage was dead or until they chose to store (whichever came first).

If this is true, it's odd that my character was stored without me issuing a storage request. I recalled getting a message from Nyr (pretty damn sure it was him, or some other ex staffer). It was sent to my ultra permabanned gdb account or sent to some old email or something and I can't find it searching email alas.

The fact is my full guild gick was stored without me issuing a storage request. Fact. I can validate that through the request tool. Account notes show stored, no storage request, it was a character I very much wanted to keep, I didn't break any rules. If I broke rules it would show up in account notes right? No notes to indicate rule breaking either. I recall magick guild changes being in the side channel message I got about it but sorry I cannot find that message now. Sucks not being able to find the exact text of the message but if staff say the justification was inactivity or something that is also probably not correct because I remembered logging in periodically to keep this character. I am 99% sure this PC was stored for being a full guild gick, please do not imply I lied.

Anyway, yeah, like last poster said, the communication breakdowns here are heartbreaking, I will say it's been a great test of my anger management skills, not even mad that I just got accused of lying when I didn't, I just hope we can collectively improve. Also Delirium and I were both slapped by an ex staffer so maybe that is improvement.

Please don't lock this thread or ban me, cheers to the discussion.

You constantly stir the pot then throw up Nixon "I'm not a crook" signs on your way out. You are definitely an enigma.

I'm also a hella long time player, I've had my beef with Staff, but as with most things, it's a two to tango. Not saying Delirium (or other players) are often in the wrong. There's often communication breakdowns, and Staff isn't widely known to have fantastic bedside manner through the years (though I would argue it is far, far better than it had been). Staff can definitely always improve their optics and manner of rollout of new concepts/changes. But I think there is always going to be pushback from a player base, of any game, not to mention this one.

As to the company policy of "we don't force store people unless X", I too have had a PC force stored without breaking the rules. I didn't agree with Staff's position at the time regarding how a storyline had played out. They decided to store my PC after I put in a request asking if Staff had intentionally crime coded my PC or if it was a fluke in the code. I was told in the resolution of the request "now accusations are flying, we have decided to store your PC". Looking back, I guess Staff felt justified as they didn't want to deal with me/the situation any longer. But it was a situation fomented by Staff interaction.

So I know when newer Staff come along and say "we never do X", it should probably come with an asterisk, and really I feel Staff means "going forward, we don't intend to store PCs without just cause". There's always exceptions.

Regarding full mages, meh. I think the flattening of karma from 8 to 3 has made them more accessible. I'd prefer the option of a full mage, but more honestly, I'd prefer a hard limit on amount of magickers iG.

[triste]

So I know when newer Staff come along and say "we never do X", it should probably come with an asterisk, and really I feel Staff means "going forward, we don't intend to store PCs without just cause". There's always exceptions.

Yes this is my understanding of the situation. I am not mad.

I literally had to reply to say please never compare me to Nixon again that is so unsexy. You are always welcome to call me an enigma though! It's called my annoying true neutral alignment (because truth doesn't exist in any dogma).

[Shabago]

Elemental mages were -not- required to store their full-mage PCs when the shift to mage sub-guilds happened. Anyone who was already playing a full-guild mage, was allowed to continue until their mage was dead or until they chose to store (whichever came first).

If this is true, it's odd that my character was stored without me issuing a storage request. I recalled getting a message from Nyr (pretty damn sure it was him, or some other ex staffer). It was sent to my ultra permabanned gdb account or sent to some old email or something and I can't find it searching email alas.

The fact is my full guild gick was stored without me issuing a storage request. Fact. I can validate that through the request tool. Account notes show stored, no storage request, it was a character I very much wanted to keep, I didn't break any rules. If I broke rules it would show up in account notes right? No notes to indicate rule breaking either. I recall magick guild changes being in the side channel message I got about it but sorry I cannot find that message now. Sucks not being able to find the exact text of the message but if staff say the justification was inactivity or something that is also probably not correct because I remembered logging in periodically to keep this character. I am 99% sure this PC was stored for being a full guild gick, please do not imply I lied.

Anyway, yeah, like last poster said, the communication breakdowns here are heartbreaking, I will say it's been a great test of my anger management skills, not even mad that I just got accused of lying when I didn't, I just hope we can collectively improve. Also Delirium and I were both slapped by an ex staffer so maybe that is improvement.

Please don't lock this thread or ban me, cheers to the discussion.

Last log-in of said PC -> Last Logon: Wed Sep 16 23:56:16 2015
Stored <PC in question> Inactive main guild elementalist. - 1/11/17

[triste]

Thank you for some dang info here. I guess the caveat was inactive there but sure enough elementalist was in the message. I guess they just swept up some dust but I DID want that character forever siiiigh.

I distinctly remember trying to log on again and internally dying when I saw my character was stored I literally made her an elf because I wanted her to be the last main guild elementalist alive but FINE

Back to the point that guild changes DO affect living characters as was the case just last month -- why do that. Speaking of agency as came up in another thread, and the main point of this thread. We aren't allowed to give feedback before the changes arrive, and then they arrive, resulting in skills changing and characters being stored. That's some lost agency alright!

[Jihelu]

Was that a 2 year gap lol