Change implemented for sorcerers

[Saellyn]

Granted, I'll accept that, but I still think having a full-power sorc should be on the table. Maybe as a special app, maybe as an "Oh your sorc survived for like two years ig which is really rare for a sorc to do, congratulations you can now learn a new branch of magick!"

I think we'll put more thought into it before reintroducing a guild that allowed (at least) three times the branching of any other given magicker guild and is nigh unstoppable at the upper end unless staff intervene.

Well like I said I'm not particularly for or against this just yet. If it turns out to be great, awesome. If it turns out to suck, I'm sure changes will be made back to the old way (or to try to fix it). I just don't like that an 8 karma guild is basically being nixed as heavily as it is.

Although I guess nilazi are 7 karma and they only get to branch their respective area() so... maybe it makes sense.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I'm sad to see the full Sorcs go, I think it would be nice to see full Sorcs as special apps only for those that are near to 8 karma.  Restrict them more, don't get rid of them.  Now as for power, some of those paths with the right combination of mundane guild will be ridiculously powerful.  People will be able to less likely guild sniff you for what you you are that way.

[Saellyn]

SEe, that woul be great. Special apping a full on sorcerer would be neat as hell. 10 karma requirement or something.

[Nyr]

Moderated a post.  Let's not (even tongue-in-cheek/jokingly) cast blame on any players for any changes, good, bad, or otherwise.

I just think it's lame that when you see someone use sorcery now, you know "oh his thing is just movement" or "his thing is just making heads explode".

"just"

Picture the most OP mundane guild guy/gal you've ever seen.  Now give them the ability to explode heads.

"just"

[Gimfalisette]

I just think it's lame that when you see someone use sorcery now, you know "oh his thing is just movement" or "his thing is just making heads explode".

I know you're not advocating for players to do this, but one of the things that fills me with ennui if I think about it too much is how willing players are to use their OOC info to change what their PCs do. I just get so tired of getting guild-sniffed or watching it done.

[Saellyn]

Movement encompasses crossing vast distances. What if you could turn that movement on your target?

Okay, I can see where this is still 8 karma. You get all the nice benefits of poison arrows, hiding like a ranger, sneaking like a ranger... and secretly sending people into the silt sea. Huh. I'm still not happy that Sorcs are going completely. Still maybe as a spec app?

[RogueGunslinger]

I just think it's lame that when you see someone use sorcery now, you know "oh his thing is just movement" or "his thing is just making heads explode".

I know you're not advocating for players to do this, but one of the things that fills me with ennui if I think about it too much is how willing players are to use their OOC info to change what their PCs do. I just get so tired of getting guild-sniffed or watching it done.

This is why I make it blatantly obvious what my PC's subguild/guild combination is. Never had that problem since I started doing that.

[Desertman]

I like it.

[Harmless]

The subguilds themselves cost less karma than the current guild does and allowed a full on guild class to play with magic, but that was back before this change. Fairly sure the karma for these basic subguilds was listed at something like 3 karma or 4 karma depending. What you've done now is raise the karma requirement for the magick subguild to 8 and tacked it in as the sorcerer guild. That's why I'm kind of edgy about this, unless the CAPABILITY is still there for these sorcerers to learn every level of magick that they had available to them before, but are more limited in progression.


This also brings me to psionicists. Are they going to receive a similar nerfing, like this? Different classes of psionicism based on a choice made by the player? Or are they going to remain the same way?

I am a little confused as to the 8 karma cost given that magick subguilds were originally planned for less karma as well but expect there will be balancing after playtesting.

[RogueGunslinger]

I really have massive problems with the idea of sorcerer subguilds being below 6 karma. I'm also pretty sure it's never been said that the karma requirements for those would have been.

[Delirium]

Overall, I'm willing to accept this might be a good change in the larger picture. I'm ambivalent about some balance issues but I'm sure that it will all work out in the wash one way or another. It will make life far more interesting (and paranoid) in some ways, if also far less dangerous in others.

I'm primarily displeased with how this change was handled behind the scenes, as the option offered during the changeover made zero sense from a continuity standpoint.  It would be wonderful if at least a modicum of regard was shown for the effort and care players have put into crafting stories and characters, as opposed to this Borg-like "assimilate or screw off, then we'll clean up the mess afterward" attitude that I've been perceiving.

tl;dr: Staff, you really need a new PR guy.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm primarily displeased with how this change was handled behind the scenes, as the option offered during the changeover made zero sense from a continuity standpoint.

Can you explain what you mean with that?

[Case]

I'm in two minds about it. I think the sorcerer guild is really flavourful and awesome, and has so much potential, that when I saw it IG or worked against it, I was often in awe. The idea of playing a defiler or a preserver is a huge one, for me, and I'm now quite sad I won't get to play one of the Sorcerer guild variety. It's a feeling of missing out.

I do like the addition of the change however, and I think it'll be neat to see how it pans out. I'm iffy about players using player knowledge to pigeonhole what they know of a newSorc however. Is there at least a core set of basic spells to help stop that? Or further progression options over time? A sub sub guild of another sorc branch?

[Ktavialt]

I have to say I'm not all that big on this change without further modification.  While I agree as far as combat/damage/fuckery badassness potential a quarter-sorc with a mundane guild could easily be just as powerful as a full blown sorcerer, I think in practice it limits sorcerers.  That said, the current system was limited as well, so I'm not against change in general.

Right now sorcerers it seems typically have a point where they decide never to enter the cities (as do rogue magickers), which is often pretty early (at least for my sorcerers).  At some point they wander around, end up making an indie group with rogue magickers that the sorcerer meets in their travels, and then hunkers down and the sorc/rogue magicker group start their own plots/adventures/basically live in the wild.

I think this move from "ok no more free city travelin' lets start rogue magicker group #4144423213" is a combination of: (a) meeting people in the wild - such as Whirans who can see you and realizing the gig is possibly up, rather not learn via templar execution that somebody saw me; and (b) increased magickal means of self-sufficiency in the wild; and (c) nominal ability to spy via magickal means to make it feel like you have some connection to the 95% of players you are never going to see face to face again.

At least with rogue magickers you can sorta do the above and still go into some social areas like Luir's and Red Storm, but quarter-sorcs can't really.

I think quarter-sorcs are going to experience the same feeling, and hit (a) without being able to do (b) and (c).  Furthermore, once they are actually spotted all they need is gemmed magicker assault action squad to go after them, and the quarter-sorcs would be too weak to really defend itself well.

So, my thoughts are, to make this work, because the general concept has some merit since the original system was sorta flawed:
(a) at least give quarter sorcs some ability to gain other spells from other paths;
(b) at least give them the same starting spells that 'nakki templars get;
(c) make less visible spell affects/casting methods (either to start, or learn over time).

[charas]

I didn't like the extended subguild sorc idea back when it was first mentioned and hoped it would never get implemented. So now that happened AND the original sorc guild is closed to players? Ugh. Just ugh. Is this thread even about voicing opinions? I don't care.

[Nyr]

I'm primarily displeased with how this change was handled behind the scenes, as the option offered during the changeover made zero sense from a continuity standpoint.

Can you explain what you mean with that?

From what I recall, we sent out communication to all existing sorcerers maybe a couple of weeks ago letting them know that the guild options were being changed for sorcerers, so they could pick from one of these new extended subguilds/get a main guild set up, accompanied with any equivalent skill boosts to reflect the time they'd spent playing the role.  I reviewed every case of what went on myself just now, and didn't see anything out of the ordinary...in one case we even swapped someone to a whole new character option that was high-karma, as they were losing the expected role.  (That was with a new character.)

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm primarily displeased with how this change was handled behind the scenes, as the option offered during the changeover made zero sense from a continuity standpoint.

Can you explain what you mean with that?

From what I recall, we sent out communication to all existing sorcerers maybe a couple of weeks ago letting them know that the guild options were being changed for sorcerers, so they could pick from one of these new extended subguilds/get a main guild set up, accompanied with any equivalent skill boosts to reflect the time they'd spent playing the role.  I reviewed every case of what went on myself just now, and didn't see anything out of the ordinary...in one case we even swapped someone to a whole new character option that was high-karma, as they were losing the expected role.  (That was with a new character.)

Well. I definitely see the issue with that. That would piss me off.

[Nyr]

What would you recommend for the future?

[Wish]

I'm glad sorcerers are still 8 karma and I'm glad this change was made.

Warrior + combat magic.  Gonna be scary.

[Delirium]

Amos shows up for work.

Amos says, "Hey guys, I know that yesterday I was mad fluent in HTML5, CSS3, PHP and Javascript and I could whip up a kickass AngularJS app in days. But man, I woke up yesterday and don't remember a damn thing about PHP or HTML5. I'm not sure what happened, but I just can't figure out how to work it any more.

So, I know I was in the middle of that big project, but now I have no idea how to complete it.

But hey, I'm now a black belt in karate and I'm an awesome rock climber. Neat huh?"

Amos's coworkers, friends, and family are all now very confused.

[Gimfalisette]

I'm not sure how staff are going to be able to make big changes like this without doing it wholesale and having it affect all players at once? If players were given multiple additional options, or it was phased out gradually, or whatever...players would still complain, and the overhead for staff would be even greater.

[Saellyn]

What would you recommend for the future?

Maybe just let them keep at it as sorcerers and when they die, say they were the last of an old breed that's gone away?

[charas]

(...) so they could pick from one of these new extended subguilds/get a main guild set up, accompanied with any equivalent skill boosts to reflect the time they'd spent playing the role.  (...)

I dislike jarring retcons like that as well. Don't see why this was necessary. I'll just assume it was.

[Wish]

I can see Delirium's point about the retcon being jarring - it is admittedly jarring and must have felt like a kick in the gut for sorc players.

At the same time, Sorcerers as they were had the ability to be nigh unkillable once maxxed - they were far and away the most powerful class in the game, and the arsenal they had at their disposal made staying alive and/or killing anyone else ridiculously easy.  Making a change like this and then waiting for the "last of the sorcerers" to die out or store may have taken multiple real life years.

[Marauder Moe]

Meh.  If the players are trusted enough to already be playing sorcerers, I'd imagine they're mature enough to be OK with this change.  Or at least to get over it eventually.


As much as I hate to see full-power sorcerers go, I kinda understand it.  They're the Red Robes of indie PCs.  Either they walk around with complete impunity, or they require staff handling to keep from unbalancing the world.