Change implemented for sorcerers

[Eyeball]

There are several things in the game that made more sense at the time, but currently do not.

I think jails are a good example.  Your PC breaks some sort of law locally and the PC is dragged off to jail.  After "serving time" which is really less than an IC day (even if you murdered someone), you get released.  This tends to fly in the face of the expectation that one is playing a character in a real and living world, so much so that the jail experience is often an example of cognitive dissonance: my PC is going to jail for doing a crime, but no one is actually going to punish my PC for it if staff or a PC templar or soldier doesn't notice.  Additionally, who's being punished here:  the PC, or the player?  The PC experiences nothing as a result of being in jail.  The player, on the other hand, is absent from the majority of the game during their jail sentence without PC or staff intervention.  It's almost like spanking the player for playing (we would assume) a realistic PC that is indeed breaking the law.  We allow and even expect that players will play PCs that break the laws of the given city-states within roleplay boundaries, so why the odd situation with the jails? 

As an aside here, one answer could be to sentence criminals to loss of body parts rather than time. They could be given the option of staying in the cell to wait for a templar's justice instead.

[Beethoven]

Will we still be allowed to write full-fledged, wannabe-dark-lord-of-the-universe-style sorcs into our backgrounds?

[Nyr]

...what 'problem' did this solve again?

I did not implement nor did I come up with the alterations myself, but I have some experience with the discussion and can provide some background in general terms, because we've applied the same sort of mentality and solutions to other issues in the game.

One thing that has come up a lot over the past couple of years is a really simple question:  what do we wish sponsored and/or high-karma players to be doing with their time?

Guilds and subguilds were originally implemented with the idea that any general person playing a character will have to spend time working on their skills.  This is generally okay with mundane guilds because they spend time among other socially acceptable (for the most part) mundanes.  With combat-related skills, they may practice them in an acceptable way (training) or utilize them in a more direct way (direct use).  With merchant-type skills, it's pretty much the same sort of expectation, except with crafting.  With the non-mundane guilds, we run into a different issue:  social acceptability of the use of their abilities.  Early on in the game (reflected probably even now in some helpfiles?), one might have seen vivaduans as a "really great helper dude to have in the clan because he can make water".  That would go for other magickal guilds as well, though not across the board.

With these guilds came roles that eventually were what we now call sponsored roles.  Because of the above, one would expect the same to go into sponsored roles:  you get a guild and subguild, you spend time working on it, etc.  Perhaps part of the idea was that there's something that is rewarding about grinding out skills to make them branch and go higher.  It's true, there is something rewarding about that (I think a lot of players might agree?) but these sponsored roles became more fleshed out over time, as did the expectation from staff towards them.  Some different models were applied.  Allanaki templars were set up with a certain guild and subguild, and had a way of gaining more "skills" over time.  Tuluki templars were separated into two camps, one getting skills granted directly on a staff-determined basis, the other expected to branch IC.  These models did not all work.  I can speak with a view of the old templar model in Tuluk and point out what we tended to see there.  Jihaens--sponsored templars--seemed to almost be encouraged to train on their own and with other templars (and sometimes nobles and soldiers) in order to get their skills up.  They needed those skills because they had to face the possibility of getting assaulted by some sort of magicker, and back then, that was a much more likely scenario.  We also saw some areas where it seemed like Lirathans had ample incentive to use their granted abilities to a great degree even when it didn't seem that necessary.  It wasn't quite the plot-nukening power that players liked to assume it was, but there was not much in the way of coded restriction in place or a deep review of what it is they needed to make the role work.

Both of these things brought to mind that original question.  What is it we expect to see out of templars?  The answer that we found here was that we did not want to see a sponsored role cloistered away from the playerbase, whittling away at skill-grinding.  I remember going over this with Nessalin and one of the conversations we had at the time went something like this (paraphrases):  "Is there a reason they should have to practice?  They're templars.  They already did that in their backgrounds."  From there, we also discussed what we saw the role as being, for the playerbase:  "Templars--really, most sponsored roles--should be out driving plot and doing things among other players.  Their skills should help them do that and also not take priority over their main expected role of being a public leader."  And that's where we made the decision to move that along, and grant higher skill boost than seen before, with avenues for increasing them that did NOT involve grinding up skills.  The less time they spent doing that sort of stuff, the more they could spend working on actual character development.

The same could be said of nobles.  What do we expect to see out of nobles?  What should they be doing with their time?  Depending on background and upbringing and House, they might have certain skills, no?  Can't we back that up in-game without forcing them to grind those skills (if any) out?  So we've taken that sort of view for nobility as well, at least in a general sense (this would require more of a broad review and we have not done too much on this yet).  The same might be said of other sponsored leadership roles.  The Byn?  If sponsored in, they're at a skill deficit and that should be reviewed.  GMH family?  Depending on area of focus, they might have certain abilities to mastercraft.  Etc.  Again, we haven't gone too in-depth into this stuff like we have with templars, but it has been started.

Then we get to sorcerers.  The playable sorcerer role that existed before...what was it that we expected to see out of them?  I am not sure that question was considered much until we'd started looking at other areas of the game, but there were several contributing factors that made it into something of a problem.  First, there was the breadth of power potential.  Stacked up against any other guild in the game, the only thing stopping a maxed out sorcerer was going to be staff.  If a PC has that much power codedly, we have to take different steps as a staffing group in order to address the possible things such a player could do.   Next, there was the road to that power potential being realized.  Mathematically, it amounted to a significant amount of attention to skills.  This might result in actual grinding, or in solo pursuit of magickal prowess, neither of which were the most ideal things to see in a broader "game" perspective.  Third, there was the result of realizing that power potential.  Socially, it resulted in the PC being labeled as an outcast and pariah, and simultaneously as a lord or lady of the wastes.  It also meant that they attracted the attention of the city-states, because of #1--they had so much power that the city-states needed to know about them.  This brought up a fourth problem, which ties back into #1:  the role has more power potential than anything in the game.  Not that there were many cases of this, but often enough, staff intervention was required in order to respond to the sorcerer PC's activity, whatever it might be.  This meant an overpowered and overwhelming response.  This brought up a fifth problem, or at least something to be cognizant about:  we were devoting staff resources to animating and responding to high-magick plots.  There's a time and a place for a certain amount of it, but too much can be a bad thing, and it can leave the more mundane roles (the majority of PCs in the game) feeling left out and ineffectual.  All of these things put together meant that sorcerers either got killed off before they were too powerful, or became too powerful and were then killed off.

Most of the above mentionables are what we saw as problems.   What do we want high-karma and sponsored roles doing with their time, then?   We want them to be an active part of the gameworld, driving plot and bringing the game to life.  And (in the case of sorcerers) we also want to nix the problems above.  There were other ways that we could have addressed the issue.  What we went with here was to provide an option that was playable so as to allow players to still play roles that had the aspects of sorcery (gathering/etc) without the problematic aspects we identified.  There will be time to tweak and assess what is it that the sorcerer options can do in the future.

[wizturbo]

I like the new system in that it will still allow sorcerers to be plenty terrifying and scary, but at the same time it turns the average sorcerer concept into being a PC who wants to hide their dark secret and find ways to use their power, rather than playing a PC who wants to become the next dark lord of the universe. I'm excited to see some of the things you guys will do in game under that new paradigm.

I'm excited for the new paradigm too, don't get me wrong, the only kind of sorcerer I'd personally want to play is the quarter-sorc...  But the idea that full sorcerers are gone entirely, and that there isn't going to be some amazing player out there who is able to try and make a new dark lord PC that tries (and probably fails) to challenge the Sorcerer-Kings makes me very sad.  Leaving them in-game, even if it's literally only 1 per RL year, just adds that element of wonder and potential to the game that would otherwise be absent.

Just my two-cents...

[Molten Heart]

...what 'problem' did this solve again?

In depth response

Thank you.  I really appreciate this response and think it gives players a great idea of what staff expectations are for players in general and how they are intended to work inside the game world as a whole.

[Saellyn]

So let me kind of paraphrase, Nyr. Are you saying that the original Sorcerer guild was too powerful, because once mastered it required, I don't know, massive Templar power to attack it, which is why this new system is in place as a kind of balance to the gameworld?

On that same token, let's say staff wanted a high-magic plot to go. Would PCs then be able to utilize a role application process to play the high-magic threat, much like the spy plots?

[Nyr]

So let me kind of paraphrase, Nyr. Are you saying that the original Sorcerer guild was too powerful, because once mastered it required, I don't know, massive Templar power to attack it, which is why this new system is in place as a kind of balance to the gameworld?

You don't even need to paraphrase, I wrote a one-sentence explanation that sums it up.

Stacked up against any other guild in the game, the only thing stopping a maxed out sorcerer was going to be staff.

On that same token, let's say staff wanted a high-magic plot to go. Would PCs then be able to utilize a role application process to play the high-magic threat, much like the spy plots?

I think we've said it a few times here how we only just today announced/made these changes.  We aren't commenting on what may be possible in the future.

[Saellyn]

You heard it here first folks. Arm2 Reborn confirmed.


I'm leery of the changes but I'm willing to give them a shot. It's a different kind of danger compared to the sorcerers of old. Time'll tell us if it's a better or worse kind.

[Eyeball]

I've never played a sorcerer, and so I've wondered what is an acceptable reason for becoming one. Is it just a natural talent, like elementalists? Did they have some mentor who started them off, but always died shortly afterward, leaving them to have to learn most of it themselves?

Maybe it should be the result of some discovery, followed by research. Instead of set paths and branching, sorcerers could try to research individual spells. This being a long and expensive process, with discounts for already knowing related magicks, might limit the degree of knowledge and guide a sorcerer along a certain path. But it would have the benefit that no one would know what to expect after seeing the character cast a single spell. And in special cases, open the door to new spells being created.

They could be able to research other aspects of casting and magick too (trying to avoid getting too IC). These are almost entirely absent from the game because they can only be granted by staff currently (as I understand it).

[Saellyn]

I've never played a sorcerer, and so I've wondered what is an acceptable reason for becoming one. Is it just a natural talent, like elementalists? Did they have some mentor who started them off, but always died shortly afterward, leaving them to have to learn most of it themselves?

Maybe it should be the result of some discovery, followed by research. Instead of set paths and branching, sorcerers could try to research individual spells. This being a long and expensive process, with discounts for already knowing related magicks, might limit the degree of knowledge and guide a sorcerer along a certain path. But it would have the benefit that no one would know what to expect after seeing the character cast a single spell. And in special cases, open the door to new spells.

It was 8 karma. That was the acceptable reason for becoming one.

As for story, it could be anything. Visions that gave you hints, studying artifacts, maybe clues in the weather. I think any of that would be  acceptable. Some sorcerers want power. Some want war. Some want peace. They all have their own reasons for studying sorcery.

[Nyr]

Good questions, really.  There are areas of the game that need better documentation to bring it in line with where we are now (rather than where we were 5, 10, 15, or 20 years ago as Nessalin put it).  We've made some strides with documentation that goes out when people get karma awarded by staff members, but they are brief snippets compared to what I imagine would be needed for the higher-end karma roles.

[palomar]

Good questions, really.  There are areas of the game that need better documentation to bring it in line with where we are now (rather than where we were 5, 10, 15, or 20 years ago as Nessalin put it).  We've made some strides with documentation that goes out when people get karma awarded by staff members, but they are brief snippets compared to what I imagine would be needed for the higher-end karma roles.

You send documentation snippets to players when they're granted karma? Like "Muls and bond mates 101"? Serious question though, I never heard of it.

[Nyr]

Good questions, really.  There are areas of the game that need better documentation to bring it in line with where we are now (rather than where we were 5, 10, 15, or 20 years ago as Nessalin put it).  We've made some strides with documentation that goes out when people get karma awarded by staff members, but they are brief snippets compared to what I imagine would be needed for the higher-end karma roles.

You send documentation snippets to players when they're granted karma? Like "Muls and bond mates 101"? Serious question though, I never heard of it.

Something started a couple (maybe 3) years ago, I think.  It is not automatic and requires copy/paste on the part of staff.  Usually done in response to an account notes request.  We try to cover the things that we've seen as issues with each karma level's related roles so that we are educating the newly "karma rich" with responsible ways to play.

[Naruto]

With this new change I have two questions:

1- There are some certain common spells in the spell list of almost any of the elementalist subguilds. Will there be common spells and skills in these sorceror sub-guilds too?

2- With this change, will the pop-limit of the new-generation half-sorcerors you approve increase?

Bump!

[Cutthroat]

I have no horse in this race, and though I think the change was meant with the good intention of giving sorcerer PCs a more solid place in the game plot-wise, it also applies a limiting factor to what roles can be pursued. In that sense it was something of a trade-off.

However, this change shows (to me, at least) that the game is being limited pretty heavily by the guild/subguild concept. I can accept the particular problems posed by guild_sorcerers, but the solution seems like a square block meant to fit into the circle hole that is the guild/subguild model. IMO it reveals how that model is less and less relevant and applicable to the evolving game, as we expand on the extended subguild system and enter a new era of characters that are codedly well-rounded and/or particularly powerful out-of-the-box.

I could understand this change if it was a step toward implementing the dual-class system that was planned for Arm 2, in the current game, or a SOI-style skill choosing system. Then at least there could be an option to choose a sorcerer with two paths of magick and nothing else. If we're going to keep the guild/subguild system forever, then this change was probably the best way to handle things, in the same way that the best disease to have is the cold. It's not great, but you can live with it at least.

So, I'm ambivalent about the change overall, but I don't think it's a point to stop and say that improvements are done, either. Hopefully this change will spur (or has already spurred) along additional changes to the guild system and improving the state of characters less defined by rigid skillsets.

[palomar]

I always found the full sorcerers scary and fascinating, and I think it's a pity we won't see more of that kind of often well-played characters. I'm not upset, however, as I understand the reasoning as provided. Personally I'm actually more interested in playing a sub-sorc than a full-sorc, at some point.

Looking at the situation in 2007/2008 when some mundanes became sorcerers through the End of the World plot, and how that played out (afaik), I think this will be very interesting. In most cases perhaps not as scary as the full-fledged sorcerers, but still nasty enough not to be taken lightly for the most part.. and in some cases outright very, very powerful without demanding the amount of staff resources previously called for. I hope, and think, sub-sorcerers will still have an edge against elementalists.

Edited to add: I think we'll see a more diverse sorcerer population, with more of them making it into a decent power level. My impression of full sorcerers is that most died relatively powerless, not having branched crucial spells, and a very select few making it and reaching immense power.

[Saellyn]

They clearly will. They'll have (potentially) all the masterful fighting ability of a warrior, assassin, or ranger ni their respective fighting style, backed up by relatively powerful classes of magic. They're quite a bit more dangerous than elementalists I'd say.

[Orin]

Playing a magicker is already isolating enough.  People don't want to be around you because of the social stigma, and those that do probably have an agenda to use you as a tool for their own ends.  That goes double for any rogue or triple for sorcerors out there.  This game is about roleplaying and interacting with other people.  Being isolated and having to grind spells or skills can get boring real quick.  I think the changes here are good for anyone wanting to play a sorceror, but don't want to feel separated from the rest of the playerbase.  

I'm sure several of us drool at the thought of being so powerful that we can take on a templar + army, or could potentially become the next Tektolnes, but realistically that would never happen.  We already have a Highlord yin and yang, and that's fine by me.  Having the choice of being oppressed by a third Highlord? Nah, I'll take the evil I know over the one I don't anyday.

[Naruto]

Well, the old sorcerors used to train and research and study hard to acquire new spells. That's the way one should RP it IMO. As a full sorceror you had almost all of the neat spells in your spell list. Now, with a half-sorceror there's nothing to stop you from researching spells which are not at the skill list of your path. For gods sake, even as a half-sorceror you still should research and study for the spells in your skill list. So, if you wanna have the detect magick spell as a movement sorceror, go for it. I'm sure you can get it added to your skill list, if you do it the right way.

[Molten Heart]

I have no horse in this race, and though I think the change was meant with the good intention of giving sorcerer PCs a more solid place in the game plot-wise, it also applies a limiting factor to what roles can be pursued. In that sense it was something of a trade-off.

However, this change shows (to me, at least) that the game is being limited pretty heavily by the guild/subguild concept. I can accept the particular problems posed by guild_sorcerers, but the solution seems like a square block meant to fit into the circle hole that is the guild/subguild model. IMO it reveals how that model is less and less relevant and applicable to the evolving game, as we expand on the extended subguild system and enter a new era of characters that are codedly well-rounded and/or particularly powerful out-of-the-box.

I could understand this change if it was a step toward implementing the dual-class system that was planned for Arm 2, in the current game, or a SOI-style skill choosing system. Then at least there could be an option to choose a sorcerer with two paths of magick and nothing else. If we're going to keep the guild/subguild system forever, then this change was probably the best way to handle things, in the same way that the best disease to have is the cold. It's not great, but you can live with it at least.

So, I'm ambivalent about the change overall, but I don't think it's a point to stop and say that improvements are done, either. Hopefully this change will spur (or has already spurred) along additional changes to the guild system and improving the state of characters less defined by rigid skillsets.

I see this as a move towards what Arm Reborn was intended to do and that is to empower players with more options, consolidating staff resources and reducing their workload.

Other than being "Lord/lady of the wastes" who interacts with characters in a limited way as some kind of distant adversary/villain figure, the role of master of sorcery is rather limited because the game isn't geared or coded to accommodate high magick characters.

[Rhyden]

I love this change. Yeah, Sorcerers are a bit nerfed on the magic side, but they're much more realistically playable now in the context of how player interaction works in this game.

Very cool.

[charas]

I'm all for less 'grind'. Smart move to alleviate that issue with sponsored roles.

I'd like to comment though on some of the problems with Sorcs Nyr pointed out here:

Stacked up against any other guild in the game, the only thing stopping a maxed out sorcerer was going to be staff. 

I do not agree with that, as I do not agree with the seemingly prevalent notion of how unstoppable all the magicker guilds are. In my experience that is simply over-exaggerating the issue. Yet even if it were so, I want to believe that a responsible player would adjust his or her play in a way that the coded potential doesn't become a problem.

Next, there was the road to that power potential being realized.  Mathematically, it amounted to a significant amount of attention to skills.

First, why not apply a similar solution that solved the same problem for the templars, at least as far as sponsored roles are concerned? And second, some players apparently enjoy the exploration-solo-grind-terror-of-the-wastes niche. Why take that option away from the playerbase entirely?

(...) devoting staff resources to animating and responding to high-magick plots

Again, I don't see why this has to be an issue, the unclanned team should be able to manage that through communicating with the sorc player.

I am not saying the issues raised here aren't there, since apparently they are, I'm only saying that negating an entire avenue of play and substituting it with something entirely untested as a solution doesn't feel right to me.

I do appreciate you guys racking your brains and putting in time to try and make this a better game though, thus my (rare enough) input here.

Cheers

[Saellyn]

It really doesn't change much. You can still be "Lord/Lady" of the wastes, you're just not going to be achieving a level of power that flies in the face of nearly everyone else. You think Joe Commoner Ranger Max Branch #3189238 is going to take on a fully maxed sorcerer? Maybe, -if- he gets lucky enough to get the drop on the guy and the guy isn't spelled up like crazy (which he probably is). Otherwise, he just took a potshot at a death machine that is now going to instantly incinerate him without him even seeing it coming.

[Twilight]

The only problem I foresee would be them actually being able to use their sorcery without completely outing themselves.  Not all the paths would appear to have spells that would help with this, based on the stated nature of the path.  If that is the case,while this might benefit those who want to live their life as a Bynner only to delve into the dark depths of sorcery after IC years in our midst...it doesn't necessarily solve the problem of having folks that are actively using sorcery having to basically live as pariah rather than in secret among us.

[CodeMaster]

The only problem I foresee would be them actually being able to use their sorcery without completely outing themselves.  Not all the paths would appear to have spells that would help with this, based on the stated nature of the path.  If that is the case,while this might benefit those who want to live their life as a Bynner only to delve into the dark depths of sorcery after IC years in our midst...it doesn't necessarily solve the problem of having folks that are actively using sorcery having to basically live as pariah rather than in secret among us.

They can always do it in their alone time.  (One of the nice things about this change is that not all of their time has to be "alone time").

When they (or their friends) get into one of those do-or-die situations ... that's when things are going to start to get interesting.