Discussion thread for proposed karma changes.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't really like anything that puts more manual work on staff.  I'm sure they'd rather be running their clans, playing their PC, and bringing the world to life than adjusting Karma values.

[Miradus]

My concerns are largely covered by the new proposal, but I'd like a grace period with each new character so if I die too fast or store I'd get my karma back to try again.

[FantasyWriter]

My concerns are largely covered by the new proposal, but I'd like a grace period with each new character so if I die too fast or store I'd get my karma back to try again.

I certainly home the delay would keep people out of the game a few weeks, dropping our average log in numbers.



Staff,
Is average days/hours played at time of death/storage a metric you can or do track?

[Nathvaan]

Is average days/hours played at time of death/storage a metric you can or do track?

This data is available but not in what I would consider a easily consumable format or single location.  There is plans to correlate these data sets at some point to get a clear and empirical understanding.

[mansa]

Is average days/hours played at time of death/storage a metric you can or do track?

This data is available but not in what I would consider a easily consumable format or single location.  There is plans to correlate these data sets at some point to get a clear and empirical understanding.

On the same thought, is there a breakdown of character classes / subclasses that are active (rough definition - logged in once a week) ?  Do you have something easily accessible for the immortal staff in that regard?
In order to maintain a sense of low fantasy within the world, is there a goal that is to be achieved?  Something like - 20% have the ability to cast a spell.   Or 50% have the ability to cast a spell.

I guess that's something you would like to have going forward to shape the PC that exist in the world.

[Decadent Decisions]

In order to maintain a sense of low fantasy within the world, is there a goal that is to be achieved?  Something like - 20% have the ability to cast a spell.   Or 50% have the ability to cast a spell.

I guess that's something you would like to have going forward to shape the PC that exist in the world.

What? When has it been a thing that staff are trying to enforce low fantasy on the world? It's definitely fantasy. Lots of magick. Lots of silt-shenanigans. Even if you limit the playerbase, the greater part of the world is affected still on the vnpc level full of magick/fantasy stuff. I got the feeling most of these changes had nothing to do with trying to enforce a 'low fantasy' vibe, and trying more to limit there being 50/100 players at any given time playing super powered magickers.

Have I completely misunderstood the flavor of the game for years?

[FantasyWriter]

Actually, "low" needs to be added to "fantasy" in the first sentence on the website's homepage.

Yes, it is -low- fantasy.  Magick is hated, feared and reviled by the vast majority of the virtual world.
Staff have always kept loose reigns on how much magick was in game for the most part.
I kind of got spoiled because right around the time that I finally got past the interface and code learning curve was probably the highest magick concentration the game saw after labeling itself an RPI.  I loved it, and many of my favorite memories from then through recent characters involved magickal interactions with other characters or the game world.  I think what we have is a good balance, and I understand that staff will have to perceptually tighten the reigns on magick to maintain balance once they open up magick for pretty much the entire player base. An absolute monster of a karma system is what kept it in place before.  I had to play the game for eight years before I could even special app for a sorc or psion.  After 11 years I am still only 5/8ths "trusted" by staff based on the old system. I think this is a much better and less frustrating solution.

[FantasyWriter]

First Paragraph of the Game talks about how magick is/should be treated most of the time...

Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things. Rather, it is about living out a character's sometimes short and always difficult life in the harsh world, Zalanthas. It is a world where sorcerer-kings and their ruthless servants, the Templarate, govern the two main cities, Allanak and Tuluk. Any magick not granted by the Kings is feared and hated, and where the punishment of such a curse might be death. In this harsh realm, life is a constant struggle, and death may occur over a drink of precious water.

[Decadent Decisions]

I would argue that magick fear and hate has NOTHING to do with it being a low-fantasy environment. It's definitely not a low fantasy environment by even the -mildest- judgment of fantasy settings. You can pretty much cross that off the list.

Low magick though? That's questionable. Templars who run everything have magick. The leaders of the world have magick. A quarter of the city is sectioned off for magick. There's places in the Known that were built upon a foundation of magick. I could go on all day. I've barely tapped the magick sphere, and played mundanes almost exclusively, and I would hardly call Arm 'low magick' even then.

Edit to add:

High fantasy is defined as fantasy set in an alternative, fictional ("secondary") world, rather than "the real", or "primary" world. The secondary world is usually internally consistent, but its rules differ from those of the primary world. By contrast, low fantasy is characterized by being set in the primary, or "real" world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements.

[FantasyWriter]

You're right from a player perspective.  But to look at it through a commoners eyes. In Tuluk, you can go your entire life without hearing about or knowingly seeing a magick user.  In Allanak, the gemmers who leave the quarter and work for nobles are the -exception- to the rule, and are a severe minority.  Most tribes either kill magickers on sight (including their own) or have very specific magicks they allows based on religion, tradition, and absolute necessity. Any magick user not of their tribe is still killed on site.

The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion.  Before IC clan building became a thing again, I felt for a long time that the only way to make a difference was with magick. That's where all the power was.  Why spend months and risk minions when you can have a Drovian spy for you with no risk to himself at all?  That's change now, and it after the guild/subguild changes and elementalist/sorcerer nerfs, I would risk saying that it is impossible to do anything meaningful through magick alone, at least at the quicker pace that use to exist.  You can probably still achieve magical greatness, but you will now have to spend the same amount of time and effort as someone who is trying to get something accomplished with a warrior, merchant or ranger. I think that is a fantastic thing. *tries really hard not to justify the place of Nilazi PCs in the game world and succeeds*


PS: I am so glad that plot killing PC Lirathans and PC Drovians are gone from the game.  That quite literally changed everything and made the world a lot more interesting place to play.

[Riev]

There is a difference between "Low magick" and "Low fantasy".

Low Magick means that magick is feared, hated, controlled, and thematically is decently rare.

Low Fantasy means you're not playing world-changing Templars and leaders of free states, going up against the gods of the world who threaten to harm mankind. You're playing a shit-eating Mercenary who might one day lead half a dozen other mercenaries against some gith, in one skirmish of a large battle.

[Decadent Decisions]

You're right from a player perspective.  But to look at it through a commoners eyes. In Tuluk, you can go your entire life without hearing about or knowingly seeing a magick user.  In Allanak, the gemmers who leave the quarter and work for nobles are the -exception- to the rule, and are a severe minority.  Most tribes either kill magickers on sight (including their own) or have very specific magicks they allows based on religion, tradition, and absolute necessity. Any magick user not of their tribe is still killed on site.

The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion.  Before IC clan building became a thing again, I felt for a long time that the only way to make a difference was with magick. That's where all the power was.  Why spend months and risk minions when you can have a Drovian spy for you with no risk to himself at all?  That's change now, and it after the guild/subguild changes and elementalist/sorcerer nerfs, I would risk saying that it is impossible to do anything meaningful through magick alone, at least at the quicker pace that use to exist.  You can probably still achieve magical greatness, but you will now have to spend the same amount of time and effort as someone who is trying to get something accomplished with a warrior, merchant or ranger. I think that is a fantastic thing. *tries really hard not to justify the place of Nilazi PCs in the game world and succeeds*

I don't mean to derail the thread. I think what you and I are debating (through friendly terms!) would do that. To re-iterate my point, it sounds like staff are actually allowing more players to play magickal roles, but are further limiting the times between them. This does not make there be less magick in the game world. This makes it so that some players will struggle to play their intended concepts if for whatever reason they don't last on their first one for (at this point in the discussion) four months. While it will allow newer players to try interesting things, it comes with the cost of making it so that they are -not- trying those things again for a very long time. In many cases, refining the current karma system and making it easier to move up AND down through it, would have been a better option in my mind to solve this. The way they did this suggests an intent to lower not the amount of magick in the game, but rather, to lower the amount of people re-rolling magickers or psions, or sorcs back to back. If only 50% of the playerbase in the past could feasibly play a krathi (and you found that to be many many magickers), their goal within the next couple years is to have almost all of them have that option. It's a step in the right, and the wrong direction, in my opinion. I like some of the intentions, I hate the OOC wait times they're suggesting.


That all said, let me break down your post a little for you. Veil of obscurity hopefully withstanding this all.

"But to look at it through a commoners eyes. In Tuluk, you can go your entire life without hearing about or knowingly seeing a magick user." - No, you just see the non-magickal templars able to see all, hear all, know all, feel all, hunting down many magickals in the surrounding lands. Lets also not forget that magick is responsible for the destruction of your home in the past, and you are taught just how ready magick is to ruin it again. You're a northerner. You hate magick. You fear it. You acknowledge it's around.

"In Allanak, the gemmers who leave the quarter and work for nobles are the -exception- to the rule, and are a severe minority." - There are many gemmers who do not work for nobleborn, who leave the quarter. In fact, there's nice echoes in the Gaj fairly often about their presence among the population. They're feared, or avoided, for certain (hated in many cases), but they exist among the regular 'commoner' population. To play a commoner who has gone to the Gaj most of their life, who hasn't seen more than their share of magickers coming through would be silly.

"Most tribes either kill magickers on sight (including their own) or have very specific magicks they allows based on religion, tradition, and absolute necessity." - I know the tribes in game. I've interacted with them. Of the coded ones that are playable now, exactly 1/2 allow magick in one form or another, with a few types allowed for each. That said, I've also known some (members) of those tribes to not try to KoS other magickers not of their preferred kind. I would not say any of these tribes allow their specific brands of magick on 'necessity' and all of them do so under 'religion' or 'tradition'. I'm not going to bring up any of the tribe stuff I've learned about the 'closed' tribes through IC or discuss them just to be safe. I'm also going to avoid adding in any sort of defense for player made-up tiny tribal groups that have been littered among the lore of the game, with various points. I'm also going to avoid talking about those darn gypsies. Cause, whew, my friend.

"The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion." -I'll bring up a couple points for this. First off, we do not all (as PCs) reflect the 'average' person of Zalanthas. Many of us choose to play those, and have done so many times. Perhaps that's all they want to play. However, as a PC, you play a character in a story. Most stories would be rather boring to read if that character only ever did exactly what an average person does. So, we've got essentially 30 players online most of the time. Of that given 30 players online, how many are you thinking are magickers? What's your number? Because there's a quarter of the city dedicated to magickers, not to mention a vast area of the Known to accommodate some other sparse clumps of them. You will -never- reflect the 'total' vnpc population versus the 'total vnpc magickers' ratio in a playerbase, without allowing basically ONLY staff to play magickers. It simply won't happen. Because you're right. They are outnumbered VASTLY. But. I'll state that with the stance that we're not forced to play secondary characters in our own stories. You may choose to, but you do not -have- to. This is a collaborative storytelling process. If you want to take your mundane warrior and go through the ropes to learn sorcery, and you manage it somehow, and staff approve of your method and the roleplay you've created in the process...good on you. If you want to play elf who elfs and never does anything...also, cool on you. The playerbase will never reflect VNPC population perfectly and pushing for it is bad for the creative interest levels of the game. A huge amount of the population can be measured in either slaves, the -extremely- poor/destitute, magickers, etc. Just clump those groups in together. Then look at the Gaj, and see the playerbase. You won't see a good reflection. While you're at it, go ahead and tell 1/2 of the Kuraci players currently that they need to move to Allanak, because the game shouldn't have 1/4th the population be Kurac. Whoops.

"The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion.  Before IC clan building became a thing again, I felt for a long time that the only way to make a difference was with magick. That's where all the power was." - During end of the world plots, perhaps. And while yes, virtually, all the power in the Known is through magicks, that's also why it sat behind a fat karma barrier. IC clan building is possible with or without magicks. It's been seen in multiple incarnations right now in the game ever since its introduction as a system. Also, magickers have had a nerf (in all cases but a few specific combos) and are far less 'magicky' than ever. Practically 1/2 the magick. Which seems to have really screwed up some synergy in my experience with spells (many of which were designed to work together). I won't cry with you over Nilazi. I want to. But I won't. I feel you (wo)man.

In conclusion? Not a low magick setting, in either experience, or if you're simply TRULY aware of the game world you're playing in...ehhh. Even psionics would be considered magic by any standpoint that isn't Armageddon. If you stick your nose really high in any corner of the Known world, you're going to find some magick or psionics played a role somewhere. That's ignoring the more blatant or obvious stuff.

@Riev - Whether you're playing a Gondorian archer who lives his life day in and out shoveling shit or waxing his bow's string, or whether you're playing Gandalf the White, you are still in a High Fantasy environment, my friend.

[Miradus]

There was a period (not so long ago so I can't reveal names) just seemed to turn around and bump into rogue gicks left and right. This guy showed me some magic. This other guy tried to nuke me with a spell. This other guy I "interacted the shit out of", I found a bunch of spell components in his backpack after our interaction was done.

I was looking around and thinking EVERYONE was a freakin' rogue gick. Did I not know ANYONE who wasn't secretly a magicker?

So it's not really that rare NOW. If you want to make it more rare then we could do something like that IC. Some of these anti-magic organizations could pay "Witch Hunters" to go out and bring them the heads of known rogues or to sniff out unknown rogues.

We don't need sweeping changes for things we could handle ourselves thematically.

[Decadent Decisions]

There was a period (not so long ago so I can't reveal names) just seemed to turn around and bump into rogue gicks left and right. This guy showed me some magic. This other guy tried to nuke me with a spell. This other guy I "interacted the shit out of", I found a bunch of spell components in his backpack after our interaction was done.

I was looking around and thinking EVERYONE was a freakin' rogue gick. Did I not know ANYONE who wasn't secretly a magicker?

So it's not really that rare NOW. If you want to make it more rare then we could do something like that IC. Some of these anti-magic organizations could pay "Witch Hunters" to go out and bring them the heads of known rogues or to sniff out unknown rogues.

We don't need sweeping changes for things we could handle ourselves thematically.

I really want to know what the heck was going on here. As someone who has hunted the crap out of magickers for one purpose or the next in the past, this sounds like a crazy coincidence more than a constant thing EVERYONE is dealing with. I went through an 80+ day character in the thick of some of the sickest stuff in the game (in my opinion) and only ever found all of 2 rogue magickers. Of the gemmed ones that I met that lasted longer than a month, only perhaps three.

[Riev]

@Riev - Whether you're playing a Gondorian archer who lives his life day in and out shoveling shit or waxing his bow's string, or whether you're playing Gandalf the White, you are still in a High Fantasy environment, my friend.

GURPS Fantasy defines the genre as "closer to realistic fiction than to myth. Low Fantasy stories focus on people's daily lives and practical goals...


So, not EXACTLY, though I get your meaning. In a roleplaying environment, a Low Fantasy environment is focused on the trivial, the mundane, the "how do we live in a world like this". Whereas High Fantasy has world-changing events, non-rational magick that does really odd and spectacular things. In your example, we ARE all playing the single Gondorian Archer, who doesn't have a damn clue what this hubbub about a Ring is, and will probably die in the next battle. We aren't Gandalf, or Frodo, or heroes of any stripe. Heroes are for High Fantasy.

Related to the thread, it feels like the expectation is still to "be cautious and live longer" if you PREFER PLAYING KARMA CLASSES, but like Lizzie, I think its best to wait until the Guild Changes come out. Maybe playing a "Heavy Combat Focused City Character" is better than playing an assassin,.

[Bogre]

We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

Nice, Nathvaan.

These seem like good changes.

My last question remains - are those players with 5 karma actually losing options? (Whira Travel/Krath Agony)

[Nathvaan]

Please keep on topic.  This isn't a thread about how low or not low fantasy the game is it's specifically about the proposed karma changes. If you want to discuss that, please start another thread! Thanks!

[Nathvaan]

My last question remains - are those players with 5 karma actually losing options? (Whira Travel/Krath Agony)

The nature of the beast is that when you change the scale there will be some people who are at the edge of the new scale with regard to the conversion that may lose a few options and we minimized that as much as possible.  The vast majority of people will gain options though due to the compressed scale.  We did map it all out when discussing what race and subguilds landed in which karma category.

[Decadent Decisions]

On the subject of the original posts, is there any consideration of further dropping this time? Or just adding a couple or single extra point of karma to basically allow lesser wait times between the 'lowest' portions of subguilds, like mundane extended ones, with set rates higher?

I still think waiting more than two or so months even to play your 3 karma role is ridiculous, and we'll see a decline in long-established great RPers with this change. Waiting two and a half months to play a protector again, even, is extreme. The karma was shrunk down too much and it's part of my gripe. That's coming from a person nowhere near full karma.

Five karma with a much higher regen rate seems optimum to me, especially if done like my original post suggested with 2 week waits between each point of karma gained back steadily. No refunds except on special applications.

[helix]

We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

Meant to post this last night, but I am very much in favor of these changes. Having read through most of the replies to this thread, I know this certainly addresses my concerns, and I think the majority of the concerns raised so far. Thanks for talking this through with us, Nathvaan.

[Kankfly]

Rr... posted on the wrong thread. Ignore it!

[lostinspace]

I'm pretty impartial about most of this, but these being in the 2 karma level really threw me.

Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

My favorite character I ever made was a burglar/aggressor. It was the only character I played into a leadership position, by far my most memorable, and imo the coolest.

With these changes I would never have made this character, I don't have the karma and I would have never spent a spec app on the character (I was just making a throw away character when I made this one).

In general this just feels extremely punitive to players who go through a lot of characters or who have short average lifespans. What before would have been a 1 day setback is now potentially a 6 month setback if a 3 karma option dies.

Is the goal to have every character live 6 months, or to have many more characters not use extended sub-guilds?

Edit: Have staff considered basing karma regain on average PC life? Per account or even game wide?

[Molten Heart]

.

[Brokkr]

Here is some of the data we are looking at, compiled from the last three months of new characters.

Karma	OLD	NEW
0	70%	70%
1	25%	14%
2	4%	15%
3	1%	1%

The OLD column represent the current karma option levels, translated into the new karma range using criteria points in the announcement.  The NEW column is those same characters, using the new karma scale options.

As a note, just 15 accounts are responsible for creating 40.9% of characters utilizing karma in this time frame.  In terms of total population, that is 12.3% of the total population of characters, if you want to compare to the chart above.

[Miradus]

Really?

That's ... astounding.