Discussion thread for proposed karma changes.

[Nathvaan]

I still haven't heard anything staff-wise about a psion/sorc interest list. I think having to spec app, and then wait a little while if denied due to having too many in game only to app again later, and then having to app again later, would be highly demoralizing.

It's being discussed.  There isn't really a good solution really.  On one hand you could be put on the list and would know that when one opens up you would be able to apply.  On the other hand as that list grows and characters in the role live long lives then the list could literally get to RL years in waiting.

We are still discussing the specifics but I don't think that that kind of policy only item should hold up this over-all project to be sure.

[valeria]

I still haven't heard anything staff-wise about a psion/sorc interest list. I think having to spec app, and then wait a little while if denied due to having too many in game only to app again later, and then having to app again later, would be highly demoralizing.

It's being discussed.  There isn't really a good solution really.  On one hand you could be put on the list and would know that when one opens up you would be able to apply.  On the other hand as that list grows and characters in the role live long lives then the list could literally get to RL years in waiting.

We are still discussing the specifics but I don't think that that kind of policy only item should hold up this over-all project to be sure.

Agreed on that last part for sure. I just know that I'd rather wait for two years than apply consistently and be rejected for two years. Rejection fatigue is a real thing that seriously sucks.

Maybe role calls should go out for them like any other limited, high-power role.

[BadSkeelz]

The problem with rolecalls is that it paints a target on every new PC. Unlike Templars and Agents, Sorcs and Psions don't have a support structure to protect themselves in the early stage. If a rolecall is held for a sorcerer, guild sniffing will intensify because people know there's a weak one out there.

[FantasyWriter]

The problem with rolecalls is that it paints a target on every new PC. Unlike Templars and Agents, Sorcs and Psions don't have a support structure to protect themselves in the early stage. If a rolecall is held for a sorcerer, guild sniffing will intensify because people know there's a weak one out there.

Or that one/some just died. And since there are only X# allowed, that's some pretty serious information to people working with/against sorcerers in game.

[sleepyhead]

I think allowing one special app every 6 months would be reasonable. You could choose to use it to bypass your karma regen once, but then you'd be giving up the opportunity to use it for something rarer. This measure wouldn't make psionicists or sorcerers more common, because they'd still be capped. It'd be nice because if you feel the desire to play a karma-required family role or something like that but you recently spent karma, you could blow your spec app on it without feeling like you absolutely have to save it because it's the only one you'll get all year.

This solution would probably make people who think the karma regen is too slow feel a little better, but I don't think it'd upset the balance too much.

It would also make the "one special app per year" rule less punitive to people who are rarely-if-ever going to spec-app a sorcerer or psion. As I currently understand the proposed rules, we would only be able to ask for an extra language, or a skill swap, once per year now.

Yes, that too. Not every spec app is a Big Freaking Deal but if you make them once per year I think that's all people will dare to use them for.

[Refugee]

I'm ambivalent about this change, really.  I tend toward long-lived combat-oriented 0-karma PCs. 

I'll add this - I've played in MUDs where you spent the equivalent of karma and it made me cautious to play PCs that would expend my points.  I was careful of them and would not spend them except for something special coming along, because I didn't want to miss out on something special, like a rolecall, if I didn't have the points.  This in no way affected my fun because (paragraph 1).

I'll also add this.  The world sure seems to be overpopulated with mages and mindworms lately.  So maybe this change will fix that.

[sleepyhead]

One thing I haven't seen addressed is whether or not the current policy that you don't have to play your approved special app right away will be changed in regards to sorcs/psions. It's one thing to be denied your sorc or psion because too many people are playing them right now, but it's another thing to be denied one because someone has one of those roles waiting for them whenever their current role dies or they get bored of it, and who knows when that'll be.

On the other hand, it also doesn't seem fair if you tell people that while they were playing their current role, someone else snatched up the sorc/psion they were already approved for. So will the current spec app policy change, or will there be an exception for psions/sorcs, or something else?

[valeria]

Staff doesn't throw up other role calls immediately when current sponsored roles die or store. There is always some time lag, enough that anyone already interacting with a KNOWN psion/sorc would probably already know they're dead or inactive. And with 30 to 60 new characters approved a week, that's a lot of people to attempt to guild sniff across a lot of population areas.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it has so much weight that it could disqualify role calls as an alternative.

[FantasyWriter]

Honestly, I'd rather not even know things like that at all (how many sorcs/psions are coming and going).
That's a good deal different than knowing there is a new Kadian about to be on the block.

[Melanogaster]

Hey everyone.  I've seen it pop up a few times that staff is trying to "reduce the number of mages," or something to that effect.

The proposed system does not seek to reduce the number of people playing karma-restricted roles (or more narrowly, mages).  In fact, via the new system, we expect to expand access to these roles.  More people will be able to play them.  One of the many goals of regenerating karma points is to keep a theoretical high-karma-character-population-explosion (or HKCPE, if you will) in check.

In short, this is not an attempt to reduce the number of mages in the world.

As previously stated, this won't roll out perfect.  There will need to be tweaking.

[valeria]

Honestly, I'd rather not even know things like that at all (how many sorcs/psions are coming and going).
That's a good deal different than knowing there is a new Kadian about to be on the block.

I'd rather not know either, which is why the interest list option would be my personal first choice.  But if it was between that and "just keep applying and getting rejected, maybe for years," I'd rather see a role call than my least favorite option.

[Miradus]

Ok, looking through the list of 2 karma extended subguilds:

Master crafter - sorry, I'm not going to wait 90 days or more for basketweaving.
Minstrel - This is probably worth the wait, but pretty niche. I'd have to have a good concept for it.
Armorsmith and Weaponsmith - I probably will not think it's worth it after the change. I craft a lot, I don't mastercraft a lot.
Outdoorsman, protector, slipknife - worth the wait.
All of the combat subguilds, probably not worth the wait unless I really have a concept. Why would I pick up a mediocre combat skill when I could just be a warrior?

And there's several no karma combos which have no equal. Archer? You can craft some nice bows and start out with fletchery on a ranger. That's way cool and costs you nothing.

[Molten Heart]

.

[sleepyhead]

Just throwing this out there, but I think it would be cool if we moved the scale up so that everyone starts at one karma instead of zero. At 1 karma no magickers would be available, but at least a few extended subguilds would be. That way newbies wouldn't feel like they're being forced to play sub-par mundanes just because they're new, but you'd still have a nice mix between regular subguilds and extended ones, since the karma would still be spent and have to regenerate.

I don't know, it's probably dumb, but it's just a thought.

[Miradus]

Personally, I'm more likely to take a break from playing to wait for my karma to regenerate than making a character I don't want.

I felt that way too until I started actually looking at the no karma options with a new eye. There's several of them that would still be pretty fun for me.

Ranger/thief
Warrior/bounty hunter
Warrior/thief.
Assassin/hunter
Ranger or warrior/outlaw.

Some decent options there. Right now I'm really just rolling through like the same 4 extended subguild options without much variance.

I'm coming around on this change, though I still think a flat 30 days and a refund would be nice.

When I first started, I had huge karma envy. Mostly because the rest of you talked up all your gick stuff and high karma options so much on the forum I thought all the fun had to be THERE.

But then eventually I got some karma and decided I didn't really like gicks and my favorite race (dwarves) are no karma at all.

So my advice to a low or no karma newbie is that there are some options available to you for big fun right out of the gate.

I think we should maybe put together some guides for those no-karma combos which can rock so hard. That's the obstacle in my mind if I think back to when I didn't know the game. You automatically think, "More karma cost = better" when it doesn't necessarily equate to that.

Seriously, are there any other Action Jacksons like me who would trade that warrior/nomad for mastercraft basketweaving?

Bendune, baby. Bendune. The speech pattern so cool it ought to cost karma.

[lostinspace]

Personally, I'm more likely to take a break from playing to wait for my karma to regenerate to play something I want to play, rather than make an interim character.

Same, I already have a hard time finding time for Armageddon, and I'm not going to spend it on a character that will just be stored when I can play what I actually want.

[Gunnerblaster]

So, it doesn't feel like it was something mentioned more than once or twice but has some sort of karma point refund been considered for stored characters? Half of the karma required; rounded up, for a stored character.

1 Karma = Refund (0.5)1 Karma
2 Karma = Refund (1)1 Karma
3 Karma = Refund (1.5)2 Karma

That way, if someone starts to play a role but realizes it's not something they can feel motivated to play - They can still reacquire some of their Karma to invest into another role.

[Dresan]

I don't have any concerns, I think is good direction for the game.

I even feel the regen system is too lenient at the moment, and as time passes, and people get more comfortable it might need to increase, but that a conversation for the future perhaps.

This has all made me excited for the guild options and changes and additions. Thanks for all the hard work!

[Tleilax]

Ok, looking through the list of 2 karma extended subguilds:

Master crafter - sorry, I'm not going to wait 90 days or more for basketweaving.
Minstrel - This is probably worth the wait, but pretty niche. I'd have to have a good concept for it.
Armorsmith and Weaponsmith - I probably will not think it's worth it after the change. I craft a lot, I don't mastercraft a lot.
Outdoorsman, protector, slipknife - worth the wait.
All of the combat subguilds, probably not worth the wait unless I really have a concept. Why would I pick up a mediocre combat skill when I could just be a warrior?

And there's several no karma combos which have no equal. Archer? You can craft some nice bows and start out with fletchery on a ranger. That's way cool and costs you nothing.

Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

[John]

That data is presented in terms of new characters because that is the point at which karma gates things.

My post wasn't intended to say your statistics don't have value, just to make sure we were correctly applying what those statistics mean in the game world (as much as we can as players who don't have a staff view on things).

Beyond that it depends on the individual play of the characters as to what the overall population dynamic will be, and thus a much fuzzier thing to analyze.

Yup. Ultimately I expect it becomes more of a gut feel if you want to look at what the overall population currently is. And that gut will alter depending on where you play, who you associate with and when you play (as in, what time of day). Plus any unmanifested/really, really secretive magickers won't FEEL like there's a lot of them around, unless we all go paranoid and then it could be one or two secret magickers getting revealed makes it feel like EVERYONE is playing a secret magicker.

There were a total of 764 characters started over the 3 month period, on 388 accounts.  That is just shy of 2 characters per account.  Of those, 282 accounts started only one character.

I feel like I'm skewing this curve here

There were 13 accounts that started 10 or more characters accounting for 153 of them, or 20% of the total.

Although I think I just fall under this threshold. Hooray!

But I do think we should give this present form a shot

I'm all for it. I'm just pointing out (and this will be my last post that does so), that this:

'But I can't play one after the other after the other' isn't valid, since that's kind of the point.

Is not achieved by this change for any high karma people who can reliably hit the 4 RL month hurdle on their characters. if this was a stated goal, then staff should consider changing the regen rate to begin when your current karma 1+ character dies.

and if that means that I quickly die, I'll have to use normal subguilds, which is also fine by me.

How many characters do you estimate you would "have" to make with zero karma options following the current regen rates?

It is not cumulative.

That's good to know. Earlier iterations of this idea did have them be cumulative.

We are still discussing the specifics but I don't think that that kind of policy only item should hold up this over-all project to be sure.

Have you considered a monthly role call as was suggested earlier by someone else (and possibly repeated by me)? You could have at the start of every X months (where X is determined by staff) a week long/day long role call for sorcerers and psionicists, and karma 3 players could decide at that time whether or not they apply. You could use the standard role call criteria for determining who gets the role, or simply go with a first in best dressed policy. It also gives staff that leeway to say "sure, we might be at maximum sorcerers in the game, but soandso hasn't played for 3 months so let's let an extra one in this time."

[Exen44]

Could we get some more elaboration on why Staff feel the need to change the special application limit for "three special applications per year, at most one per month" to just one per year? It seems pretty drastic and punitive towards those players who don't use their special applications for high karma "overpowered" roles.

Current special applications help file, for reference

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

Players may submit up to three special applications per year, at most one per month. A special application allows players to request to play a character that is beyond what the normal application process would provide for. This might be any number of things. For karma guilds, this means that a player may apply for a role up to three karma points higher than their current karma level.

We are also currently testing out extended subguilds and skill increases using the same process for special applications. See the helpfiles on both of these subjects for details.

All Special Applications should be submitted through the Request Tool.

Emphasizing this. Still only got one hand so going to continue quoting good points.

[Miradus]

Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

A hell of a note! Good deal.

[BadSkeelz]

Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

A hell of a note! Good deal.

Not really.

At the risk of getting them bumped up in cost, why are Slipknife and Rogue at one karma while the listed above are at two?

Personally I don't think any of these should be two karma. If you're worried about extended-subguild desert elves and half-giants running wild, maybe you should make Subguild karma cost cumulative if your RACE is also karma-locked.

Edit: Although cumulative costs are still a shitty idea and I wouldn't want to see them introduced.

[lostinspace]

Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor
The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

Why are these being separated out to the two karma level?

[FantasyWriter]

They basically give you a second guild of ranger light or warrior light on top of your main guild choice.